Dec. 20, 2023

Addicted to Drama with Dr Scott Lyons

Addicted to Drama with Dr Scott Lyons
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Addicted to Drama with Dr Scott Lyons
Addicted to Drama with Dr Scott Lyons
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Season 11 Psychology & Neuroscience Personal Growth & Healing

Dr. Scott Lyons discusses the concept of drama addiction and how it can negatively impact relationships, causing fights, jealousy, and destructive patterns. People addicted to drama often seek chaos and attention, creating a cycle of drama in their lives. Scott and Cass discuss strategies for dealing with drama addiction, whether you see it in someone else or recognise this pattern in yourself.Buy the bookCheck out The Embody Lab
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Transcript
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This is Crappita Happy and I am your host Castunn.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist. I'm mindfulness meditation teacher

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and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In

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this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent

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people who are experts in their field and who have

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something of value to share that will help you feel

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less crappy and more happy. Doctor Scott Lyons is a

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holistic psychologist and educator and author. Are renowned body based

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trauma expert and the creator of the Embody Lab, which

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is the largest online learning platform for body based trauma therapies.

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Doctor Scott has recently written a book called Addicted to Drama,

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and in it he turns the notion of the drama

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queen on its head, showing that drama is an addiction

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that those who are suffering with it are experiencing a

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much deeper psychological, biological, and social pain. If you or

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somebody that you know is addicted to drama, then this

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is a must listen. Scott shared with me how this

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comes about. How certain people become drawn to chaos or

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always seem to be attracting chaos in their lives. What

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the conditions are that create that, and what you can

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do if you know somebody like this to protect your

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own energy, and also what you can do if this

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is you. It's a really, really fascinating, enlightening conversation. Here

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is that conversation with doctor Scott Lyons. Doctor Scott Lyons,

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Welcome to the Crappy to Happy Podcast. Such a pleasure

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to meet you.

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Thank you, so happy to be here. I'm just like,

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I love the title.

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It's unfeeling it, it's snappy, and you know what, I've

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got a lot of guests because of the title. I've

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had people just go bloody Earth, I'm going to be

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on crappy or Happy? Of course, I am like, why

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wouldn't I who wouldn't want to know? Happy? Fuck ypy Scott.

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I saw that you had written this book. Look at

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the look at the posted notes. I've been attempting to

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speed read before we had this call. As soon as

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I saw it, I thought, I have to talk to you.

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Addicted to Drama took great titles. I knew that everybody

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in my audience will just be dying to hear all

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about this. Everybody knows somebody who is addicted to drama.

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But before we get into that, what what I guess,

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what's the definition? Like, what does it look like and

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feel like to be a person who is kind of

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in this constant cycle of being drawn to chaos?

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Yeah?

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Well, I love that you started off with we all

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know someone addicted to drama, because we do, and it's

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and it's so universal, and while we might not have

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all the words to describe it, we all know it viscerally.

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We know what it's like to walk into a room

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and someone is pulling you into their chaos. They take

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all the air out of the room. They're making something

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small into something huge for no apparent reason. And we

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all know that, we feel it in our bones and

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our gut and we just want to run the hell

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away usually, or we're like, that's mildly entertaining, and we

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kind of want to step a little closer, you know,

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like reality television, right, you know, and so you know,

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but it's it's harder to.

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Define.

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And that's what the reasons I wrote the book is.

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I'm like, Okay, we all know it, but there's no

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books on it, there's no self help support on it,

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and it's not even a clinical term. And yet it's

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one of the most popular terms among the general populace.

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So like why is there a gap?

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And you know, coming back to the definition, drama is

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the unnecessary turmoil.

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It's the exaggeration.

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Between the stimulus and the response, meaning like what's happening

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to us is disproportionate to our response to it. It's

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like blowing out a birthday candle with a fire hose.

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It makes no sense from the outside, but on the

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inside it's justified, or at least will gather all the

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evidence we need or create it to justify the extreme response.

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And you know, the thing.

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Is is it is true for the person on the inside,

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the person who has a propensity for drama. It's like,

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of course I have to blow out a birthday candle

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with a fire hose, or of course I have to

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go into a bomb shelter if it's sprinkling out, you know,

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to protect myself from the soon, right, because that is

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how they.

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View the world, right Truly, it's this elevated response to

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everything which other people just can't understand. It makes no sense,

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and so it looks like at tension seeking right, Like

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it often just looks like oh my god, there they

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go again, go again?

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Yeah, it's all and for that person on the inside,

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it is always something.

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There's always something wrong.

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There are always the victim of things that they that

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are happening to them at them, and they don't recognize

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it's coming from them. Right, And from the outside again,

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you're like, whoa, why is there something always happening from

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this person? Why are they always mixed up in some

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sort of drama issue or fight with a partner or

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fight with a parent, or like work issue or home issue,

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or why are they always over scheduling themselves and complaining

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about it? Why can't they find peace? Like what is

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going on in there?

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Yeah?

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Yeah, And it's hard to understand. It doesn't make sense

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from the outside because it's all about creating sensation. It's

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not about making sense. It's about making sensation.

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We'll get to that, because that's a really good point.

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I just wanted to pick up. Though we both agree

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that we all know somebody who is addicted to drama.

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And I know that you said in the book that

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when you speak to groups and you say hands up,

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if you know somebody, everybody puts their hand up. And

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now when you say hands up, if you're addicted to drama,

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nobody puts their hands up. Is there a lack of

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self awareness or do people who have this propensity tend

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to self identify or do they not?

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No, that's the complication of it is. I mean, how

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many of us have recognized our own contribution to the

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issues we're having. How many of us have recognized, Hey,

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we might be the problem. It's like, okay, this is

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This is an example I love to give. My dating

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life in my twenties and thirties sucked like. I had

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dated so many methadics for some reason, and like like.

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Three, wow, that's extreme.

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And I was like, and I just kept going, what

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is happening in the universe that these people are attracted

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to me? That they keep ending up in my life?

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And little by little by little did I realize the

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common denominator in all of these relational issues is me?

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Holy shit, And it's so like But I had done

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so much therapy. I found all my friends to enable

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me to reinforce my belief in the world that the

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issue was all these other people interesting. They kept trying

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to find me that it was or it was just

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happenstance I found them. Little did I recognize that I

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was reinforcing my early childhood patterns of being consistently abandoned

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by people who needed substance as a way to fill

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the void in them. So, you know, in any addiction,

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we're not going to recognize ourselves as the issue. That

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is the beauty of having these distractive substances or behaviors.

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It helps us maintain distance from ourselves. That is the

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entire point of an addiction. We are avoiding the trauma

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by chasing the drama. We are avoiding our trauma by

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going and have alcohol or heroin or any of these things.

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And the trauma might be a lot of different origins,

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but it's hill has the same response in our body

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and what we all do, What would you do? Is

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my question to everyone, to avoid the severity of pain

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that you can't get away from. Welcome to the world

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of addiction. And we have all sorts of things we

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can become dependent on, and that can be sex, or gambling,

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or drugs or stress. Stress as the most accessible free

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form of substance, truly that we can get our hands

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on at any time. I can be alone in the

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desert and create drama.

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Right.

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I can't go get heroin, but I can go get drama.

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I can stir up stories in my head. I can

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go think about my parents, I can think about my ex.

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I can think and I can blame the desert for

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being too hot.

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Yeah, yeah, I can do it all.

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I can find any way I need to rev myself

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up at any time.

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It is so true. And I have talked a lot

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also about you know, we kind of demonize these certain

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things that people are hooked on. You know, if you've

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hooked on alcoholic drugs or something, well that's really bad.

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But if you're a workaholic, well that's fine. But it's

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all the same thing, right. But I have actually never

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thought about this idea that you can actually be hooked

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on drama, that you know, that you can actually be

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hooked on stress.

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Yeah.

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Well, I mean let's think about it this way. When

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I go back to the question, what would you do

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to avoid the pain? Okay, so when we ask that question,

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everyone would be like, whatever it takes, right, I'll go

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take a drug. I'll go take I'll go maybe go

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to therapy, I'll go do whatever I need to. What's

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called auto regulate to disconnect from the pain as a

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means of survival, and stress does three incredible things. It

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helps us avoid. So it distracts us, which is amazing.

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Right.

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So if I have a little bit of heartache from

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some breakup that happened a couple months ago, but I

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go watch the news of what's happening right now in

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the Middle East, and I get myself involved in it,

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it's a distractor. I can oh, I can create a

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higher decibel of stress, or tend to a higher decibel

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of stress to distract myself from what's happening within me.

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I can avoid what's underneath the hood and really attend

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to everyone else and everything else, or and absorb it

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into me. So it is a distractor. It's a natural

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pain reliever. It's one of our most powerful natural pain relievers.

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That stress and love are too natural pain relievers. It literally,

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when we're in a state of stress, it blocks the

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pain receptors wild, right. So when you go for a

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run and you release all those hormones and you get

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that kind of high, it's also you're releasing all of

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these hormones that like essentially block the pain receptors. That's

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what happens in a stress response. It's not just when

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you run. Running is a stress is a stressful activity.

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You know, going into an ice bath is a stressful activity.

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Going and getting into a fight with a lover is

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a stressful activity. It's a pain blocker, and it's an energizer.

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Stress is a battery pack. The first stage of stress

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is to release a massive amount of energy so that

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you can respond to the stimulus. So we have it

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as a distractor. It's a pain reliever, it's an energizer.

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And one last.

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Component of it that stress does is if you've ever

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been depressed or sad or known the feeling of kind

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of feeling numb when you get into a fight with

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someone and you're angry or it gets stressed out, it

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actually rises. It gives you a sense of feeling Yeah,

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so above the threshold of numbness. So holy shit, if

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you were living most of your life with some sort

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of malaise, some sort of depression, some sort of sadness

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or low energy, or just plainal numbness, which we all

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have at some point, it makes us feel alive. And

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feeling alivee gives us a sense of value and purpose.

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Wow.

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Yeah, how could we not become dependent on stress?

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You talked before about this sensation seeking. I'm really interested

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in that, Like you're talking about the numbness. So is

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this a case of but I don't I'm disconnected somehow

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from myself internally, so then I'm looking outside of myself

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to create something to feel. Is that kind of what's happening.

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Yeah, yeah, so a lot of us know are more

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familiar with the termino dissociation. Yeah, it's a it's a

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basically taking a vocation from your own body. You know,

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it's a way of it's a survival mechanism. We are

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getting into a fight with someone, We're not going to

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stay as present as we would if we were making

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love to someone, or or if making love is scary,

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We're also going to disconnect. We're going to disconnect so

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we don't have to feel flooded by what the experience

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is A. It's a it's part of our biological evolution

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to be able to disconnect or divorce from ourself.

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To feel less.

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Now, the problem is, first of all, that's brilliant. The

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fact that we can do that is amazing. It has

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allowed so many people to survive some crazy shit in

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their lives. Yeah, the problem is is when you vacate yourself,

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but you don't have a map to get back home

246
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to yourself, and there is a void within you. Yeah, yeah,

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And I'll talk a little bit more about sensation seeking

248
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in just a moment. But part of addiction, the basic definition,

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as we understand now, death of addiction is how are

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we filling the void? And that void is the void

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of us of having to you know, whether it's in

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our early developmental experiences or in childhood or in adulthood,

253
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all the times we had to divorce ourselves from ourselves,

254
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to vacate, to leave, to dissociate and not know how

255
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to fully come home. It leaves emptiness where we should belong,

256
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and we feel that. We feel that in any way

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because the gap of us, the void of us, is

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one of the worst experiences and feelings of being human.

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We know what it's like.

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Many of us know what it's like to feel left out,

261
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to feel the sit of belonging so deep loneliness, but

262
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we don't necessarily recognize that deep loneliness is within us.

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We're separated from ourselves, and to cure it, or to

264
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believe what we believe could cure it, is to fill

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it with something else. When our glass is empty, I'm

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going to go fill it with alcohol or stress or

267
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or love, addiction or whatever it is, to try to

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fill what should be filled with our essentially our sense

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of self. Yeah, now going back to your actual question

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and sensation.

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Okay, So what.

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Happens often early when we're disconnected and dissociated or when

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there's been an injury, an emotional injury. So what we

274
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call the trauma is that we develop a layer of

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protection called numbness. Numbness is protection. So like you fall

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off a bike, for example, and you bruise your elbow,

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and there's a bunch of inflammation, so it gets like

278
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all funky and shit, and there's like a lot of

279
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that's the technical trum for medicine, all funky and shit,

280
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and it's all flu Like you see a fluid buildup. Yeah, Yeah,

281
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that fluid build up is to protect the injurious tissue,

282
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the injured area. Same thing happens to us emotionally. Yeah,

283
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when we have a heartbreak, when we have a trauma,

284
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and that inflammation, yeah, that's essentially meant to protect us,

285
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creates a layer of numbness. We are disconnected from that area,

286
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and so we start to lose and numbness, we start

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to lose a sense of feeling connected to things because

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we are connected, we feel alive through sensation. I don't think,

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therefore I am, I feel therefore I am. I know

290
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my existence by feeling in this world. And the less

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I feel, the less I feel like I belong to

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this world. And that's a serious, serious injury that's per

293
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perpetuated from the initial injury, the initial trauma. So the

294
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consequence of it, like a first injury or emotional injury

295
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or trauma, is that it leads us to feeling more

296
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blocked and disconnected from ourselves and other people. And so

297
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what do we do to feel live or connected? You know,

298
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maybe we go fight with a partner, Maybe we created

299
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story in our heads so we feel jealous, we feel

300
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some type of sensation, so we feel something rather than nothing,

301
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And so that's the sensation seeking part of an addiction

302
00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:51.759
to drama.

303
00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:55.759
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So there's a lot that you said

304
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there about early experiences and trauma essentially, so for people listening, like,

305
00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:05.400
what are some of the early like the causes and

306
00:19:05.400 --> 00:19:08.960
conditions I guess that might lead to this kind of

307
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addiction to drama like down the track.

308
00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:15.279
Yeah, so there's a couple of things.

309
00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:20.359
It could be that the environment to which we grew up.

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When is chaos, and babies are sponges, we literally absorb

311
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the ecosystem and internalize it. If it's a peaceful environment,

312
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our nervous system is more regulated. If if there's loud

313
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noises and fighting and drama and chaos and our families,

314
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that becomes the rhythm we internalize in our own bodies,

315
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the rhythm to which we operate from as adults, the

316
00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:53.400
rhythm we seek in other people or environments as adults.

317
00:19:54.200 --> 00:19:57.640
That's complicated, that's tricky, you know how to because it

318
00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:01.400
becomes part of us from an early standpoint of our lives.

319
00:20:01.799 --> 00:20:04.279
Other ways, and I talk about this a little bit

320
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in the book, is when the currency of love in

321
00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:14.000
our families is when things are wrong. So if I

322
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got attention from my parents when I was sick or naughty,

323
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quote unquote naughty, and one of our fundamental needs of

324
00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:25.599
survival is to be seen and heard and recognized and

325
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attended to, and so that's the currency of love. So

326
00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:33.160
if the currency of love is when I am ill

327
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or when something is wrong, when something is negative, then

328
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I'm going to internalize that too, as that is how

329
00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:47.119
I survive and I will act and seek out more

330
00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:51.559
negative things in the world. I'll attend to those primarily

331
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because that's the reinforcement of my survival.

332
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You know.

333
00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:58.680
Other things are like major boundary issues when we're kids,

334
00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:04.359
either things that essentially create this numbness. So anything like

335
00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:07.839
an emotional desert can cause it. And you know, and

336
00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:13.680
well some people might seek stress, other people might seek drugs,

337
00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:17.599
so it you know what's available. And when I know

338
00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:24.000
for myself that stress was available much sooner than drugs.

339
00:21:24.039 --> 00:21:26.519
And I never got into drugs, like I just I mean,

340
00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:30.839
I had family members who were very much into hardcore drugs,

341
00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:32.319
and so for me, I was like, I don't want

342
00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:34.960
anything to do with that. But I just went into

343
00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:39.599
something else for me, which was easy to attain, easy

344
00:21:39.640 --> 00:21:42.640
to create, which was stress, which was drama.

345
00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:45.640
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can have an example, a really

346
00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:49.960
good example in the book too about you described it.

347
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:53.039
I think as like maybe a little girl who has

348
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to keep herself small to be safe. It's an experience white,

349
00:21:56.920 --> 00:21:59.599
you know, people would be familiar with. So you know,

350
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there's a lot of chaos, violence, perhaps in the family household,

351
00:22:04.279 --> 00:22:07.640
so she stays small. But then it's almost like this

352
00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:14.160
big personality emerges as a compensatory kind of thinks. It's

353
00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:15.559
kind of complex, isn't it?

354
00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:20.200
All of these Yeah, that's the Allison Wonderline phenomenon. Is

355
00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:22.880
like you shrink and then you have to over extend

356
00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:28.240
and get really big, So your emotions, your responses have

357
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:34.359
to be exaggerated in compensation to shrinking in survival and

358
00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:40.920
what ends up happening is an inability to register and

359
00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:46.559
identify how much attention, energy, and emotion is truly needed

360
00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:51.759
in any given moment. And that inability to identify and

361
00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:59.119
actualize that is as is what we call dysregulation, right regulation, Well,

362
00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:01.559
you know that fancy term in terms of you've got

363
00:23:01.559 --> 00:23:04.319
a regulated nervous system or you know, whatever the fuck

364
00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:07.119
that means. And what that actually means is you have

365
00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:11.680
the ability to identify how much energy, attention, and emotion

366
00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:16.119
is needed to adapt to a situation. And when you

367
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:24.319
have a very funky disproportionate response, that is dysregulation where

368
00:23:24.359 --> 00:23:28.480
you are using up way too much energy, we're not

369
00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:34.480
enough energy, and the results are more harmful to the environment,

370
00:23:34.599 --> 00:23:35.920
other people, in yourself.

371
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:39.799
If you've got an individual who has got this propensity

372
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towards drama and creating chaos, blong things out of proportion.

373
00:23:43.720 --> 00:23:45.279
How does this impact relationships?

374
00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:51.640
For example, just to brief it, I mean, let's get

375
00:23:51.640 --> 00:23:53.680
all my ex boyfriends on the phone. Shit.

376
00:23:57.119 --> 00:23:57.680
It doesn't.

377
00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:01.559
It doesn't fare well because to the things many things

378
00:24:01.599 --> 00:24:06.960
actually relationships. I mean, when we think about relationships, some

379
00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:11.039
of us, the lucky fifty five to sixty percent in

380
00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:15.440
the populace, will go, oh relationships. When I think about

381
00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:20.640
I pauseive relationship, I go, I relax, I settle, I

382
00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:26.200
find ease, I find support. Now, for some of us,

383
00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:29.799
a good thirty percent of the population thirty to forty percent,

384
00:24:30.759 --> 00:24:36.200
relationships trigger an internal response of fear. It does not

385
00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:41.920
feel safe to be an intimacy and vulnerability. It leads

386
00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:46.720
to a sense of danger. If I'm intimate, which requires vulnerability,

387
00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:50.920
I will not be prepared for the next potential threat

388
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:55.839
or trauma, which means I am susceptible to death. And

389
00:24:55.839 --> 00:24:58.920
that is the internal script and Q that's running for

390
00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:03.680
so many people. And so they go and it's internal.

391
00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:06.440
They can't hear it. They act on it. Their behavior

392
00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:10.000
represents it, but they don't recognize it's coming from them.

393
00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:13.920
So they start fights, they push people away. It's fast

394
00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:19.759
connections and very fast destructions. It's fights for no reason,

395
00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:23.960
it's jealousy for no reason. It's like all the things

396
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:25.680
we look at like I don't know if you remember

397
00:25:25.759 --> 00:25:29.519
Jerry Springer or like the old school, like crazy, like

398
00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:31.240
what the fuck is going on?

399
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:34.000
And then we would go, oh, I do.

400
00:25:34.279 --> 00:25:37.200
I do a version of that, just smaller, maybe just

401
00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:40.680
smaller because it's not on television. That type of drama

402
00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:46.279
is a means of protection in relationships. And then there's

403
00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:51.880
another interesting thing. If you know someone addicted drama, they

404
00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:57.400
are baiting you to their dysregulation. They are pulling you

405
00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:03.799
in like a tornado, like a whirlwind, into their dysregulation.

406
00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:08.200
Why because that in that chaos and that swirl of

407
00:26:08.279 --> 00:26:11.119
chaos is where they feel a sense of being in

408
00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:19.160
sync and safe enough to connect. And in that chaos

409
00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:24.359
for them is a momentary sense of belonging interesting. And

410
00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:29.839
so the relationships require chaos for connection. It's really sad

411
00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:33.400
because what it does is it pushes people away. It

412
00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:39.440
creates destructive patterns in relationships. And what's underneath it is

413
00:26:39.480 --> 00:26:43.480
a desire for closeness. The alarm system of danger that

414
00:26:43.599 --> 00:26:50.680
simultaneously goes off when closeness is too close, and the behavior,

415
00:26:51.079 --> 00:26:54.160
all that jealousy, the fighting, all that shit is like

416
00:26:54.440 --> 00:26:57.680
a survival response that takes the driver's seat. They're not

417
00:26:57.720 --> 00:26:58.559
in control of that.

418
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:03.079
I would assume that somebody who has, you know, a

419
00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:07.480
secure attachment, somebody's fairly healthy and comfortable in relationships, would

420
00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:11.359
not last too long in a relationship with somebody with

421
00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:14.400
this addiction to chaos? Is that necessarily the case? And

422
00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:17.279
I'm wondering do these kind of people end up drawn together?

423
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:21.759
Like do these people who are addicted to drama kind

424
00:27:21.799 --> 00:27:26.400
of find each other and thrive off each other's chaos?

425
00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:27.119
Yeah?

426
00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:30.799
Yeah, that's a great question. I haven't, like, I didn't

427
00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:33.880
just study in relation to that material. So I'm going

428
00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:36.559
to speak towards what I've seen in my own life,

429
00:27:36.680 --> 00:27:39.359
what I've seen in talking to people and then with patients,

430
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:43.599
and I would say like, for the most part, there's

431
00:27:43.680 --> 00:27:47.799
usually one person who's more the addicted drama and one

432
00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:53.160
person who is enabling them or supporting them by being

433
00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:57.559
in the relationship or fighting back or they find themselves.

434
00:27:58.240 --> 00:28:03.519
And here's the interesting thing about secure attachment is I

435
00:28:03.559 --> 00:28:06.039
think a long time ago for those who are not

436
00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:10.000
so familiar with the idea of attachment theory. Secure attachment

437
00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:12.599
basically means that you feel safe in the arms of

438
00:28:12.599 --> 00:28:16.400
another person, and that you can when they feel regulated,

439
00:28:16.440 --> 00:28:20.799
you can also feel regulated. That's called coregulation, and that

440
00:28:20.839 --> 00:28:25.599
feels safe or safe enough. Now there's insecure attachment is

441
00:28:25.599 --> 00:28:28.119
when that doesn't feel safe all the things I was

442
00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:31.599
talking about before. It's like, I'm here with you, and

443
00:28:31.839 --> 00:28:35.640
that sense off an alarm in your body and you

444
00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:39.720
act out of that alarm. The thing about secure attachment

445
00:28:40.519 --> 00:28:44.799
is we it's a baseline, but it doesn't mean we

446
00:28:44.920 --> 00:28:49.599
can't become insecure as an adult. So if you're with

447
00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:52.920
someone with a addiction to drama and you have a

448
00:28:52.920 --> 00:28:59.519
secure attachment, you will become dysregulated. Yeah, and there's it's

449
00:28:59.559 --> 00:29:03.160
not just because oh my gosh, you're dealing with their

450
00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:06.359
crap and sometimes they're even pulling you in and then

451
00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:08.599
you don't know where you are. You lose your anchor,

452
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:10.880
you lose your sense of boundary, you lose your sense

453
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:17.160
of ground. It's also because, and here's the kicker, stress

454
00:29:17.799 --> 00:29:23.039
as a state of being is contagious. It's called stress contagium.

455
00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:26.440
So like when you walk into a room and someone's happy,

456
00:29:27.079 --> 00:29:29.880
you know, as opposed to crappy, just to bringing them

457
00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:34.000
to title this show, you also feel something you're like

458
00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:37.079
kind of related to you don't even recognize it. They're

459
00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:39.920
like that person's just great and they like, you know,

460
00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:45.240
it's like they transmit happy and you know, happiness is

461
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:50.279
also contagious, but not nearly as contagious as stress. And

462
00:29:50.319 --> 00:29:53.559
we've really done the research on this to identify. Like

463
00:29:53.839 --> 00:29:57.680
you go to an auditorium and you watch someone do

464
00:29:58.119 --> 00:30:03.279
a talk, for example, beach and this is this is

465
00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:07.240
a very common research study, and the person is kind

466
00:30:07.240 --> 00:30:10.559
of nervous about talking in front of other people. Your

467
00:30:10.599 --> 00:30:15.799
heart rate, your blood pressure, your cortisol release will exactly

468
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:21.279
match theirs as an audience member exactly. Stress is one

469
00:30:21.319 --> 00:30:25.759
of the most contagious states we have as humans, and

470
00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:29.559
it makes so much sense we need it by you know, evolutionarily.

471
00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:34.279
If I'm running into a house and you're their cast

472
00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:37.279
and I'm huffing and puffing in my eyes are really

473
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:42.119
wide and I'm not blinking and my heart rates really accelerated,

474
00:30:42.920 --> 00:30:47.799
and without needing to explain anything, you start to match

475
00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:51.160
my states so we can run away together because something

476
00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:55.519
is possibly chasing me. Who knows if you non reactive

477
00:30:56.160 --> 00:30:59.480
and I keep running, but you're like, hey, you're like

478
00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:02.880
intellectually trying to understand what's going on, how is your day?

479
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:06.200
Whatever's chasing me is going to get you because you're

480
00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:10.839
not also prepared to react. So that's why stress contagion,

481
00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:16.359
why we evolutionarily have developed such a strong contagious response

482
00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:20.240
to stress. So going back to it in relationships, the

483
00:31:20.279 --> 00:31:24.440
more you're around someone addicted to drama, the more you're

484
00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:30.480
having their experience. That's significant. And so it's like, now

485
00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:32.599
as we're all and many of us are going home

486
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:40.440
for the holidays soon, whoa shit, you know, we are

487
00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:45.640
navigating not only our family's patterns of reenactment, we're also

488
00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:49.039
dealing with whoever the drama addict is in the family.

489
00:31:49.079 --> 00:31:52.079
And we almost all have at least one, you know,

490
00:31:52.759 --> 00:31:58.279
is knowing that their drama, their stress, they're chaos is

491
00:31:58.400 --> 00:32:03.680
going to bill the room. And then because you're in

492
00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:07.640
the room, it also will fill you to some degree.

493
00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:10.160
You're just talking about going home for the holidays made

494
00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:12.119
me think, I'm sure there'll be people listening going, oh,

495
00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:15.119
that's my mother or that's my father. Like having a

496
00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:19.960
parent addicted to stress. So I mean, I guess, like anything,

497
00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:22.680
some of that would would be modeled and some of

498
00:32:22.680 --> 00:32:25.799
it would be like as in two kids in the family,

499
00:32:26.720 --> 00:32:29.240
and therefore they become sort of the same way. But

500
00:32:29.319 --> 00:32:31.839
also they're living in that drama all the time, and

501
00:32:31.880 --> 00:32:34.160
so that's a there's a trauma kind of response there

502
00:32:34.200 --> 00:32:34.599
as well.

503
00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:39.400
Yeah, absolutely, it's tough, and you know, having a parent

504
00:32:39.440 --> 00:32:43.599
who's as a propency for drama. You know, I chose

505
00:32:43.640 --> 00:32:47.359
the term addicted drama. It's derogatory and it's very like

506
00:32:47.559 --> 00:32:51.440
general concept. You know, if you call someone a drama addict,

507
00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:55.000
it's usually a criticism. And why I wanted to use

508
00:32:55.039 --> 00:32:58.599
that title in the book is to reclaim it and say,

509
00:32:58.839 --> 00:33:05.920
if they're addicted to it's because there's trauma that is

510
00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:09.039
pervasive within them that they are trying to escape from.

511
00:33:09.160 --> 00:33:12.279
It's too much. They're hurting, they're flooded by it, and

512
00:33:13.160 --> 00:33:16.160
it's important for those of us on the outside. And

513
00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:19.000
I've straddled the fence. I have my own history of

514
00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:22.519
an addiction to drama. I come from a long lineage

515
00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:25.240
of those who are addicted to dramas, so like, I

516
00:33:25.559 --> 00:33:27.759
know what it's like to have healed something and then

517
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:31.440
to go back into an ecosystem where I'm like, where

518
00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:35.200
it has not been healed, and how to survive it

519
00:33:35.720 --> 00:33:39.160
because it is oo. It is tough not to get

520
00:33:39.160 --> 00:33:43.160
pulled back in because not only is there like a

521
00:33:43.400 --> 00:33:48.359
physics force pulling you back in, but they also crave it.

522
00:33:48.839 --> 00:33:53.720
They also need your energy as an additional energy pack,

523
00:33:54.200 --> 00:33:59.240
essentially to maintain the vortex of drama to keep it going.

524
00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:03.400
So I guess this brings me to two things. One,

525
00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:07.240
if you're a person who is in relationship with somebody

526
00:34:07.319 --> 00:34:11.719
who you identify has addicted to drama and recognizing now

527
00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:15.320
that this is a survival strategy, there's a trauma response

528
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:19.039
on trauma, like something else is going on here, what

529
00:34:19.159 --> 00:34:22.199
can you do as the person who is impacted by

530
00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:25.280
that in the form of somebody else's behavior? And then

531
00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:27.440
afterwards I'll get to what if you're the person then

532
00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:30.000
what steps do you take? But let's just start with

533
00:34:30.079 --> 00:34:33.159
because we all can identify another person, so let's start there,

534
00:34:33.960 --> 00:34:36.840
what do we do we know this is what's going

535
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:39.239
on to protect ourselves from being pulled into that and

536
00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:40.280
being affected by that.

537
00:34:41.320 --> 00:34:43.559
Now, in the book, I call that chapter something like

538
00:34:43.719 --> 00:34:46.719
a bird in a snowstorm, you know, or a bird

539
00:34:46.760 --> 00:34:50.960
in a hurricane something like that. And it's essentially talking

540
00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:54.679
about like there are tools that we can start to

541
00:34:54.840 --> 00:34:59.519
use and to know, you know, during a storm you

542
00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:02.960
have to to have the right gear. You have to

543
00:35:03.039 --> 00:35:07.079
have the right gear to thrive through it, and that

544
00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:13.639
gear is boundaries. So starting to identify for yourself, Okay,

545
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:16.840
when is enough enough? What is the point where you

546
00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:19.639
feel like you're being pulled in and you're losing yourself?

547
00:35:20.199 --> 00:35:23.239
What are the words you can say to set up

548
00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:28.000
that you're not open to the drama? And it doesn't

549
00:35:28.039 --> 00:35:30.679
work to just say, hey, you're being a dramatic I

550
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:35.320
promise you that will never ever fucking work. It will

551
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:39.199
just throw fuel on their fire. Do not say it?

552
00:35:39.519 --> 00:35:46.920
Yeah no, do not fuck it' say it. It's saying like, hey,

553
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:50.360
you know, I noticed there's a lot of hard things

554
00:35:50.360 --> 00:35:53.480
we're talking about. Is it okay if we pause and

555
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:55.320
talk about some of the positive things that are also

556
00:35:55.360 --> 00:35:59.280
happening in your life? You know, shifting to the positive

557
00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:03.840
can be restorative. If I know, like a friend or

558
00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:06.440
a parent or a family member is often kind of

559
00:36:06.519 --> 00:36:08.559
dramatic and like they're like.

560
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:09.840
Oh, did you see the news?

561
00:36:10.440 --> 00:36:13.159
And why are bad things always happening in the world,

562
00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:16.679
And you just feel like you're you know that person

563
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:20.000
where it's almost like the new It's like they are

564
00:36:20.119 --> 00:36:22.840
the news story, as though it's happening directly to them,

565
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:25.360
as opposed to being a witness to it or even

566
00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:28.960
soap operas. I can't believe what's happening in my TV shows,

567
00:36:29.639 --> 00:36:32.760
or they crisis hop for example, they go from one

568
00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:35.440
bad thing to the next, and there's just like there's

569
00:36:35.519 --> 00:36:40.800
no space in between, there's no their general concept of

570
00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:43.599
the day, of the week, of the world. It's just negative.

571
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:47.639
So one of the things I often do with those individuals,

572
00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:49.760
as I say it like I'm happy I have I

573
00:36:49.800 --> 00:36:53.039
have fifteen minutes for you. That's what I have available,

574
00:36:53.079 --> 00:36:55.159
and I'm happy to listen to you because I know

575
00:36:55.280 --> 00:36:58.639
for myself that's my cutoff point. Fifteen minutes is all

576
00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:01.880
I have, and if I go any longer, I feel dreamed.

577
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:04.840
So I go fifteen minutes and I need to chat.

578
00:37:05.079 --> 00:37:06.960
I need to do it on a walk in a

579
00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:10.599
public space, because I know when I'm on a when

580
00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:15.599
they're moving, when they're motoring, they're less dramatic or if

581
00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:17.960
I know we're they're in a public space, they at

582
00:37:18.039 --> 00:37:20.079
least will keep their voice down a little bit more.

583
00:37:21.039 --> 00:37:23.960
Sometimes I'll be like, go ahead, I'll stop someone, I'll

584
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:28.199
possible and I'll just say this story feels familiar, you know,

585
00:37:28.360 --> 00:37:32.760
like have you shared it before today? And they might go, oh, yeah,

586
00:37:32.760 --> 00:37:35.199
I told some other people the same thing. And I'm like, so,

587
00:37:35.239 --> 00:37:39.320
I might go, so, what what's shifted for you? Like

588
00:37:39.400 --> 00:37:44.719
what's what support do you need now that you're talking

589
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:47.760
to me? Like what can I offer you in this moment?

590
00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:50.679
I like, do you just need to be heard? Do

591
00:37:50.760 --> 00:37:53.360
you feel like talking about some of the underlying feelings

592
00:37:53.360 --> 00:37:56.719
that's underneath the hood might be helpful? You know, if

593
00:37:56.760 --> 00:37:59.920
you can get to the under the feelings actually underneath

594
00:38:00.039 --> 00:38:04.159
the exaggerated emotions, they'll settle it usually, you know, if

595
00:38:04.199 --> 00:38:09.280
you're sometimes not saying much is more than enough. Like

596
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:12.440
if they're they're rolling down the hill of drama and

597
00:38:12.440 --> 00:38:15.800
they're taking anything you say, anything anyone else says, and

598
00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:19.639
weaponizing it, using it as fuel, dumping it, which is

599
00:38:19.719 --> 00:38:23.440
often a very familiar act for those addicted drama, and

600
00:38:23.480 --> 00:38:26.440
they're just rolling down the hill. The inertia is strong.

601
00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:30.599
I might just say something like it, like it's really

602
00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:34.480
strong for you, Like these are big, strong feelings. I'm

603
00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:36.920
gonna just pause for a moment. Let's take a break,

604
00:38:37.159 --> 00:38:39.360
Let's just go for a walk in silence, and then

605
00:38:39.400 --> 00:38:41.480
we'll come back to it all. Like, I feel like

606
00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:43.239
I'm not quite getting it right for you, and I

607
00:38:43.400 --> 00:38:46.519
really want to show up for you. Can we take

608
00:38:46.559 --> 00:38:49.000
a pause so that I can sort out how I

609
00:38:49.039 --> 00:38:52.599
can really show up better for you. Those type of

610
00:38:52.679 --> 00:38:55.559
things are really helpful. It's really important to take care

611
00:38:55.599 --> 00:38:58.880
of yourself. If you are around some an addicted drama.

612
00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:03.440
The things things that always always happens is they will

613
00:39:03.480 --> 00:39:06.400
pull you out of you. You will feel less of

614
00:39:06.440 --> 00:39:09.239
your own body, weight less sense of presence in your

615
00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:12.199
own body. So find a sense of what I call

616
00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:16.960
ground and anchor weight in some sense of like a

617
00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:21.199
central line, like your spine, something central in you that

618
00:39:21.239 --> 00:39:24.599
gives you a sense of presence. Maybe it's your breath. Yeah,

619
00:39:24.639 --> 00:39:26.559
And when you start to lose track of your own

620
00:39:26.599 --> 00:39:29.599
breath or your own weight for example, or your own

621
00:39:29.679 --> 00:39:33.199
sensation of like touching something like hold the rock, keep

622
00:39:33.239 --> 00:39:36.519
touching something when you start to lose your ability to

623
00:39:36.599 --> 00:39:39.559
be in contact with it, or connection to it. That's

624
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:41.960
a real sign that they're pulling you out of you

625
00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:46.320
keep coming back into you. You need to be like again,

626
00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:50.039
if you are not present in your own body, you're

627
00:39:50.039 --> 00:39:54.079
not able to process and metabolize all the big emotions

628
00:39:54.119 --> 00:39:57.599
in the room that they're pushing out, that they're deposing

629
00:39:57.639 --> 00:40:00.920
into the space, possibly parsing into you.

630
00:40:01.480 --> 00:40:03.960
Yeah. I feel like that's good advice just for anybody,

631
00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:06.920
because I think so many of us, so many people

632
00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:10.480
are not connected to themselves and grounded a lot of

633
00:40:10.519 --> 00:40:12.599
the time, you know, like drama, addiction or not. I

634
00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:15.760
think that that's just a lot of people. So in

635
00:40:15.800 --> 00:40:19.639
any situation, I think that's great advice to kind of

636
00:40:19.800 --> 00:40:23.239
find some sense of anchoring, check in with yourself and

637
00:40:23.320 --> 00:40:26.360
you talk Scott about yoga and meditation and kind of

638
00:40:26.360 --> 00:40:29.119
those kinds of things were really helpful to you when

639
00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:32.199
you recognize this in yourself. So are those the kinds

640
00:40:32.239 --> 00:40:35.880
of things that you would recommend to other people who

641
00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:39.119
are experiencing this sort of thing, Like, what's what can

642
00:40:39.159 --> 00:40:42.800
people do to help themselves when they go, oh, it's me, Hi,

643
00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:45.280
I'm the problem, it's me.

644
00:40:45.880 --> 00:40:46.199
Well.

645
00:40:46.599 --> 00:40:49.079
One of the ways I like to sough the enter

646
00:40:49.239 --> 00:40:52.960
into the conversation of it's me, I'm the problem. First

647
00:40:53.000 --> 00:40:57.639
of all, thank goodness for Taylor Stiff. Thank you Taylor,

648
00:40:58.039 --> 00:40:58.559
thank you.

649
00:40:59.639 --> 00:40:59.840
Yes.

650
00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:03.400
So, I mean when you start to recognize or people

651
00:41:03.519 --> 00:41:06.320
are telling you, hey, there's something like a little dramatic,

652
00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:11.559
or you find yourself constantly in issues and challenges, let

653
00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:14.599
me just say life is hard, but life is not

654
00:41:14.880 --> 00:41:19.360
a constant stream of hardship. If you're unable to notice

655
00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:26.480
any of the positive aspects of life, then by all

656
00:41:26.519 --> 00:41:30.119
means it's start to It's it's important to start to

657
00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:33.199
look in more and if you notice this is a

658
00:41:33.239 --> 00:41:38.159
soft core way of starting to recognize h something something

659
00:41:38.199 --> 00:41:42.920
in me. If you ever are meditating, if you're ever

660
00:41:44.280 --> 00:41:48.920
walking through a garden, if you're ever doing something relaxing,

661
00:41:49.639 --> 00:41:51.679
and you start to settle, and then you start to

662
00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:54.360
quickly think about your grocery list, or you start to

663
00:41:54.360 --> 00:41:57.880
think about your fight you had, or you start to

664
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:00.639
like if I've done this, I will say it many

665
00:42:00.679 --> 00:42:03.480
times where I've started to think about, like I just

666
00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:06.280
created a fight with someone in my head and I'm

667
00:42:06.320 --> 00:42:08.480
like and then you pull out and you're like, wait,

668
00:42:08.519 --> 00:42:10.440
and now I'm mad at that person and they weren't

669
00:42:10.440 --> 00:42:13.440
even involved, or like I had a partner once who

670
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:15.719
had a dream that we got into a fight and

671
00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:18.000
then woke up and was angry at me, and I

672
00:42:18.039 --> 00:42:20.920
was like, but I didn't do anything. But that's that's

673
00:42:20.960 --> 00:42:23.599
the same type of shit. So if you notice that

674
00:42:23.639 --> 00:42:26.480
for yourself, like you're in a relaxing place or potentially

675
00:42:26.480 --> 00:42:30.000
relaxing place, you start to settle, and you find something

676
00:42:30.039 --> 00:42:32.119
stirs you up, Oh I forgot to do this or

677
00:42:32.920 --> 00:42:37.719
all those things, that's an indication. That's the physiological indication

678
00:42:38.239 --> 00:42:44.199
of some type of propensity towards drama. If you're finding

679
00:42:44.360 --> 00:42:46.079
like I used to do this all the time, where

680
00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:49.039
I'm like just on a scroll, like a stroll through,

681
00:42:50.119 --> 00:42:53.000
like on the street, relaxing, you know, like I don't

682
00:42:53.000 --> 00:42:55.519
have anywhere to go, I'm just taking an exercise break

683
00:42:55.719 --> 00:43:00.639
for the day, and I find like I'm rushing, and

684
00:43:00.679 --> 00:43:04.039
I'm like, wait, why am I rushing? I have nowhere

685
00:43:04.039 --> 00:43:06.800
I have to be right now, which is amazing, And

686
00:43:06.840 --> 00:43:10.360
I'm still acting in that sense of urgency. There's nothing

687
00:43:10.480 --> 00:43:16.840
urgent here, but my body is almost on constant urgency drive.

688
00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:19.760
And then I would slow down and then I would

689
00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:22.480
like just pause for you know, like feel settled for

690
00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:25.000
a few moments and then I find myself. I'm like, oh,

691
00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:28.440
those birds are so loud today, and it's all like

692
00:43:28.679 --> 00:43:32.480
you're finding yourself. Like anything, you can rev yourself up

693
00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:37.119
from right as soon as you settle, that's an indication.

694
00:43:37.719 --> 00:43:40.079
That this might be a good book for you.

695
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:46.840
And so starting to bring awareness in as a first part. Yeah,

696
00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:49.960
so if you're looking for things the constantly revu up,

697
00:43:51.159 --> 00:43:53.719
it's really important to start to stick a wedge in

698
00:43:53.800 --> 00:43:59.400
between this, the the stimulus and the reed response, like ooh,

699
00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:03.039
I'm looking for things I'm seeking. I'm becoming hyper vigilant,

700
00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:07.039
looking for stresses. I'm starting to stress myself out by

701
00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:11.519
certain thoughts or actions. And the more we can start

702
00:44:11.559 --> 00:44:18.639
to find a pause in between where we go okay,

703
00:44:19.079 --> 00:44:22.320
I'm noticing, Like here's a great example.

704
00:44:23.239 --> 00:44:24.119
About a week and.

705
00:44:24.039 --> 00:44:28.559
A couple of weeks ago, I saw I was driving

706
00:44:28.599 --> 00:44:31.079
on the highway and I saw a flag that I

707
00:44:31.119 --> 00:44:36.719
thought was that half mass and and so my first

708
00:44:36.719 --> 00:44:40.360
thought was, oh, my gosh, who died? And then I

709
00:44:40.519 --> 00:44:42.360
was like, I was saying to a friend of mine, okay,

710
00:44:42.440 --> 00:44:45.800
google real quick, who died? Like you know, clearly we

711
00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:47.960
need to be in the know. And now I'm like,

712
00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:50.159
is it you know? It was this by it was

713
00:44:50.320 --> 00:44:51.760
the president, Like what's going on?

714
00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:53.880
And then I was.

715
00:44:53.840 --> 00:44:59.119
Like, okay, take a pause, reconnect your body, you have

716
00:44:59.400 --> 00:45:03.000
you don't know anything. You had a quick thought and

717
00:45:03.039 --> 00:45:05.559
then a story on top of that, and that's the REV.

718
00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:10.280
And I'm like, whatever information, I don't have to have

719
00:45:10.360 --> 00:45:13.880
it in this exact moment. I'm okay. So I'm gonna

720
00:45:13.880 --> 00:45:19.639
settle my body back down. I'm gonna take even a

721
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:22.519
moment to look back at the flag and just see

722
00:45:22.559 --> 00:45:25.679
it as a flag. And when I did that, I

723
00:45:25.719 --> 00:45:28.559
was like, oh my gosh, the flag's not at half mass.

724
00:45:28.719 --> 00:45:31.400
There was just an antenna on top of it, so

725
00:45:31.480 --> 00:45:35.599
it made the flag look shorter than it was. And

726
00:45:35.639 --> 00:45:38.679
I was like, oh wow, So I created a scenario

727
00:45:38.840 --> 00:45:42.360
that's not there. I had a physiological response to it.

728
00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:46.840
I involved someone else. I'm gonna pause, I'm gonna go back.

729
00:45:47.360 --> 00:45:50.000
I'm gonna settle in my body and sit and just

730
00:45:50.039 --> 00:45:54.360
like keep keep clearing things out, keep clearing things out.

731
00:45:54.440 --> 00:45:57.480
And the more I'm able to do that, the more

732
00:45:57.639 --> 00:46:01.559
I'm able to pause in between. Oh, I see the flag,

733
00:46:02.079 --> 00:46:05.519
for example, and the rebbed response, I'm like, oh my gosh,

734
00:46:05.519 --> 00:46:07.480
Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh, who's died? You know,

735
00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:11.480
I'm able to go, Oh, I'm seeing a flag. Oh

736
00:46:11.519 --> 00:46:14.559
I'm curious. Oh I noticed there's a response in my

737
00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:18.280
body to create a little story. I'm just gonna turn

738
00:46:18.400 --> 00:46:22.440
the knob down, turn the decibel of that story down,

739
00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:27.400
and keep grounding, keep angering because the more I the

740
00:46:27.480 --> 00:46:30.280
less I anchor and ground, the more I'm able to

741
00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:33.880
disconnect from my own body and create narratives and create

742
00:46:33.960 --> 00:46:37.400
drama and you know, et cetera. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and

743
00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:40.119
go sensation seeking all of those things. Yeah.

744
00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:44.280
Right, So presumably when people first begin to do this,

745
00:46:44.440 --> 00:46:50.880
to slow down and kind of unhook from the story, Like,

746
00:46:51.559 --> 00:46:54.960
that's gonna feel uncomfortable, isn't it. Oh yeah, so that's

747
00:46:55.000 --> 00:46:57.440
really important to not Like, I know, because I teach

748
00:46:57.480 --> 00:47:00.679
meditation as well, and like I said, the rich person

749
00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:05.840
finds it really difficult to just sits still, you know,

750
00:47:05.920 --> 00:47:09.719
focus on your breath and for five minutes. So is

751
00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:13.559
it a case of just I guess it's just distress tolerance.

752
00:47:13.599 --> 00:47:17.000
Isn't it just kind of building up your capacity to

753
00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:19.000
sit with discomfort?

754
00:47:19.960 --> 00:47:24.519
Yeah? Oh my gosh, yeah, certainly sitting with discomfort of

755
00:47:25.639 --> 00:47:27.960
And it's also about like telling yourself you're going to

756
00:47:27.960 --> 00:47:32.559
be safe, because part of that rev response is preparation

757
00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:37.639
for the next potential threat. So it's like, Okay, I'm

758
00:47:37.719 --> 00:47:41.559
safe enough in this car. I'm okay enough not to

759
00:47:41.599 --> 00:47:45.360
know exactly who died. I didn't know five minutes ago,

760
00:47:46.239 --> 00:47:48.719
and if I don't know exactly right now, I'll still

761
00:47:48.719 --> 00:47:50.760
be okay.

762
00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:51.079
You know.

763
00:47:51.079 --> 00:47:55.159
It's talking myself down, and it's like, oh, there's maybe

764
00:47:55.199 --> 00:47:58.960
there's some discomfort of like the like not knowing who

765
00:47:59.480 --> 00:48:04.800
again then the flag situation. Oh, it's uncomfortable not to know.

766
00:48:04.880 --> 00:48:07.679
It's uncomfortable not to act on it. It's uncomfortable not

767
00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:10.320
to call everyone I know and tell them someone diet

768
00:48:10.400 --> 00:48:13.159
even though I don't know who died, you know. Like so, yeah,

769
00:48:13.159 --> 00:48:17.639
it's a distress tolerance. So building more okayness with non reaction,

770
00:48:18.320 --> 00:48:23.280
it's the distressed tolerance is actually creating more how do

771
00:48:23.360 --> 00:48:32.199
we see it, more okaeness with quietness that peace quietness

772
00:48:32.960 --> 00:48:38.519
can be safe. That's the distressed tolerance we're really working towards.

773
00:48:38.719 --> 00:48:40.920
Scott. I know that in the book you've got a

774
00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:43.719
whole lot of really, really great resources in there, like

775
00:48:43.719 --> 00:48:46.679
a whole lot of archetypes for different types of drama,

776
00:48:46.760 --> 00:48:50.760
addiction that people can work through self identify, loads of

777
00:48:50.760 --> 00:48:54.039
really practical stuff, which is what I love. So thank

778
00:48:54.159 --> 00:48:56.480
for that. I will be promoting it far and wide.

779
00:48:56.800 --> 00:48:59.679
Really appreciate you taking the time to write the book

780
00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:02.239
and taking the time to talk to me today. I

781
00:49:02.280 --> 00:49:05.719
have really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you me too.

782
00:49:05.920 --> 00:49:09.400
Thank you for your great questions and your interest in

783
00:49:09.480 --> 00:49:09.800
the book.

784
00:49:09.960 --> 00:49:11.800
Oh yeah, I told you. I've been trying to speed

785
00:49:11.840 --> 00:49:13.320
read it. But while I've got you here too, I

786
00:49:13.320 --> 00:49:17.039
want to also shout out to your Embody Lab, which

787
00:49:17.079 --> 00:49:21.039
is the most amazing resource. As a psychologist myself, I

788
00:49:21.079 --> 00:49:23.239
now use it for all of my professional development needs.

789
00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:25.360
I just log on there do a course because it's

790
00:49:25.400 --> 00:49:28.960
all of the stuff that I'm so interested in. So

791
00:49:29.039 --> 00:49:31.360
I want to really shout out too, because I have

792
00:49:31.400 --> 00:49:33.519
a lot of psychologists that listen to the show as well.

793
00:49:33.599 --> 00:49:35.880
But obviously you don't have to be a psychologist. Anybody

794
00:49:35.880 --> 00:49:38.840
can access the resources that are there. So do you

795
00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:40.320
want to just say a little bit about what the

796
00:49:40.320 --> 00:49:41.960
embody Lab is while you're here?

797
00:49:42.360 --> 00:49:43.440
Yeah, You're so sweet.

798
00:49:43.519 --> 00:49:48.519
Thank you that worms my heart, Like you know, I

799
00:49:48.519 --> 00:49:51.320
I one of my dreams for so long was to

800
00:49:51.440 --> 00:49:56.199
make a hub for embodied education for somatic therapy where

801
00:49:56.239 --> 00:50:02.719
it's accessible like this is. There's so many significant teachers

802
00:50:02.719 --> 00:50:06.239
and methodologies and semantics, and I wanted to create a

803
00:50:06.280 --> 00:50:09.559
home for all of that, one that's non competitive, like

804
00:50:09.880 --> 00:50:12.679
saying like here's some something beautiful we can take from this,

805
00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:16.800
and saying beautiful we can take from psych sematic psychedelics,

806
00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:19.400
and saying we can take from sematic experiencing, and saying

807
00:50:19.400 --> 00:50:23.519
we can take from Hakomi, all of these really powerful

808
00:50:23.559 --> 00:50:29.440
practices that truly bring us towards healing, not just individual healing,

809
00:50:29.920 --> 00:50:34.920
but collective healing. And yeah, and and my you know,

810
00:50:35.400 --> 00:50:38.079
we're both psychologists. We both went to school for far

811
00:50:38.119 --> 00:50:41.280
too long and spent way too much money to become

812
00:50:41.440 --> 00:50:44.960
very stressed out and pay back an enormous amount of

813
00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:51.280
loans and you know that whole game. And the truth

814
00:50:51.559 --> 00:50:55.239
is is that you know, like years ago, when I

815
00:50:55.320 --> 00:50:59.079
wasn't a psychologist, when I was working in pediatrics as

816
00:50:59.159 --> 00:51:01.440
a you know, I had a lot of different professions

817
00:51:01.480 --> 00:51:04.199
as a neural developmental therapist and as a doctor and

818
00:51:04.440 --> 00:51:06.480
all these things and I was like, wait, wait, wait,

819
00:51:07.039 --> 00:51:11.679
Trump doesn't just magically happen and show up in our

820
00:51:11.760 --> 00:51:12.920
office as therapist.

821
00:51:14.320 --> 00:51:14.840
It doesn't.

822
00:51:15.039 --> 00:51:19.440
My sister is an incredible school teacher and shows up

823
00:51:19.840 --> 00:51:22.079
just as much in her office as it does mine,

824
00:51:22.639 --> 00:51:27.280
in fact sometimes more, except that, you know, it's so like.

825
00:51:27.840 --> 00:51:30.079
One thing that was really important for the Embody Lab

826
00:51:30.159 --> 00:51:34.760
is accessibility. Is say, yes, we all have different professions,

827
00:51:34.800 --> 00:51:38.039
but to be more Trump informed and to be able

828
00:51:38.079 --> 00:51:41.639
to have the tools of somatics as not only to

829
00:51:41.760 --> 00:51:48.199
support ourselves as SpaceHolders or as practitioners, but the tools

830
00:51:48.239 --> 00:51:52.440
to support other people in this process despite our career

831
00:51:52.679 --> 00:51:56.079
is so important. I want someone to be able to

832
00:51:56.079 --> 00:52:00.719
study with Gaberamante and Peter Levine and Kai Tom and

833
00:52:01.119 --> 00:52:04.599
Kemendevo and all these incredible teachers if you're a dentist

834
00:52:04.760 --> 00:52:07.559
or a school teacher, or a parent.

835
00:52:07.599 --> 00:52:09.000
Or a psychologist.

836
00:52:09.079 --> 00:52:12.000
And so that's what we did. We created an accessible

837
00:52:12.039 --> 00:52:15.599
learning platform that holds at the heart of it that

838
00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:19.000
somatics can help truly transform ourselves to the world.

839
00:52:19.360 --> 00:52:21.360
It's amazing. I'll put the link down in the show

840
00:52:21.400 --> 00:52:24.679
notes and share that as well. But yeah, I love it,

841
00:52:24.800 --> 00:52:29.400
and Gil done you create. Thank you