Oct. 17, 2022

Ambiguous grief with Stephanie Sarazin

Ambiguous grief with Stephanie Sarazin
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Ambiguous grief with Stephanie Sarazin
Ambiguous grief with Stephanie Sarazin
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Season 8 Personal Growth & Healing

After going through a divorce, Steph Sarazin discovered the unique pain of ‘ambiguous grief’ - when you grieve something or somebody who is still there, just not as you knew it. Steph has spoken to hundreds of people about their experience of ambiguous grief - from people whose partners went to jail, to loved ones with Alzheimer's, to addictions. In this chat she shared with me the unique qualities of ambiguous grief, how we can learn to acknowledge it better as a society, and why hope can sometimes be really hard. Steph's book is called Soul Broken, and you can follow more of her work at https://stephaniesarazin.com/
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Transcript
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A listener production.

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This is Crappita Happy and I am your host castunn.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist and mindfulness meditation teacher

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and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In

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this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent

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people who are experts in their field and who have

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something of value to share that will help you feel

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less crappy and more happy. A while ago, Stephanie Sarazon

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went through a divorce and she found herself grieving for

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her former partner in the same way that she might

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if someone had actually died, but also knowing that there

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was something very different about what she was experiencing. She

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also recognized that there was not the same kind of

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external support or validation or recognition of what she was

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going through. For example, she jokes that nobody brought her

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casse roles. But it was through her experience that she

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became passionate about better understanding what this was that she

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was going through, and together with a psychologist, she identified

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that this was what she now calls ambiguous grief, which

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is a similar concept to ambiguous loss, but it does

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build on that concept, and steph and I did discuss

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what the distinctions are between ambiguous loss and ambiguous grief.

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Ambiguous grief essentially is when you're grieving for a person

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even though they're still here. As part of the work

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that she did to better understand this experience, she talked

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to hundreds of people about their experience of ambiguous grief,

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and these are people who had lost loved ones to incarceration, addiction,

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or to Alzheimer's. So in our conversation, Steph shared with

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me the unique qualities of ambiguous grief, how we can

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better learn to acknowledge this as a society and to

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support people who are going on through this, and what

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I hope can be such a double edged sword. She

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also walked me through the model that she has developed

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together with a psychologist to help people to move through

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ambiguous grief. I really hope that you get something of

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value from this conversation and that you will please share

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it with anybody who you think might benefit from this.

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Here's my chat with step.

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Steph.

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Thank you so much for joining me on the Crappy

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to Have You podcast today.

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Thanks for having me cas. I'm so pleased to be here.

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All the way from North Carolina.

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We're a very international podcasting experience today.

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I'm loving this global Yeah yeah, Steph.

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You have recently written a book and you are doing

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some great work in the world around this topic of

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ambiguous grief, which is a really I feel like this

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is such a relevant topic for so many people. I

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was super excited to have you on the show and

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talk to you. Can you start just by telling us first,

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what has.

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Been your experience? What got you interested in this topic?

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Well, you know, I didn't set out to be, you know,

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somebody researching ambiguous grief. That doesn't sound like a lot

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of fun, and honestly it hasn't been. But you know,

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it really was born out of my own experience, my

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own desire to understand what I was going through. And

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you know, many years ago, I experienced a divorce that

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was really earth shattering in my world, and I just

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wasn't moving through kind of the aftermath in those early weeks,

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those early months in a way that felt to me

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how I should be moving through. And I know that

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may sound kind of off, because if you've not gone

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through it, which I hadn't, how do we know how

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we should be doing anything? But something for me, cas

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just felt off and it felt that my grief was different.

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I could identify that it was grief. And though I

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hadn't had much experience with grief as we know it,

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which is, you know, grief by death, by physical death,

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I was aware that it was still different. And you

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know the Elizabeth Kogler Ross model that we all know

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so well, you know, which has been kind of modified

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as the years have gone on, but you know that

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described stages of grief that we might experience, anger, bargaining, denial, depression, acceptance,

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and then ultimately one one was just added and its

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meaning and I could identify when those things were happening.

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But it wasn't still what I expected. I knew something

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was off, so you know, I really just went in

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search of trying to feel better. You know, when you

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lose a loved one to something other than a physical death,

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when our loved one doesn't die a physical death, it's

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a different type of grief. And as I started to

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research and really just try to feel better, you know,

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I was really looking for kind of a manual, a

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big sister to say, here, o'f been through it. Here,

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here's what you do. Right. It was different because you know,

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I there was no no eulogy. There was no funeral,

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there was no there's there were no casse roles in

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my freezer casts. You know, kind of not that we

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do grief very well as you know a society today,

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but when somebody does die a physical death, we know

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what to do, you know. We there are certain rituals

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exactly exactly, and here it was just you know, kind

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of a dearth of information. I could find plenty about divorce,

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I could find plenty about death, but not about grief

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for somebody who has not died. And you know, I

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really just began this work to heal as a way

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to you know, try to feel better. And it was

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it was really like just Alice down the rabbit hole.

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There was just tumbled in and there just kept being,

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you know, more and more, and it led me to

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different doors and I just kept opening each door and

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learning more and learning more and talking to more people,

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and you know, I found some really interesting made some

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interesting discoveries. And divorces is but one of the activating

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events that can bring about ambiguous grief, and you know,

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ultimately discovered through research with a psychologist I partnered with

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that this is a process that most of us will

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experience at least once in our lifetime. Yet we don't

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have a name for it, and we don't know how

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to identify it or have the tools to move through it.

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A couple of things you just said then, Steph one

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was wondering if you were doing it right, And interestingly,

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that's a question that I hear all the time, even

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in relation to standard grief. You know, when somebody dies,

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people still wonder if they're taking too long, or if

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they should be feeling like this, or they feel guilty

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that they're not feeling sad enough for that they're something

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wrong with them because they're feeling too sad. And I

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think the ambiguous component of it just add this, adds

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this extra layer of complication or confusion around what this

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And of course there is no normal and there is

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no like what you're supposed to experience. But I do

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think you're right that that ambiguity of the list, the

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fact that the person is still walking around in the

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world that nobody has died, raises all these questions about well,

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how am I supposed to feel about this you just

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touched on for you. If there was a divorce, I

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think would be really helpful to talk about what are

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some of those activating events that can trigger ambiguous grief?

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So this is a loss that isn't an actual death,

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so it's divorce. Can you just outline what some of

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the others are, because know there are plenty.

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Oh absolutely, it's some surprise to me, you know. So

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familial estrangement is one a rejection of a friendship or

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a family member, addiction, Alzheimer's disease, cognitive decline of any sort,

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a traumatic brain injury, a diagnosis of a health condition,

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mental health conditions, gender identity, incarceration in doctrination to a

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cult or a gang, you know. And in all of

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these instances, our loved ones have not died a physical death,

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but the relationship has changed as it once was, and

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they are no longer in relationship with us as they

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once were. And for the individual who is grieving, you know,

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it is such a difficult place to be because of

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those events that I just named. Many of us will

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internalize shame or embarrassment associated with some of those and

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for me this was so curious, but it answered my

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second question, which you know, my first question was what

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am I experiencing? What is this and why is it different?

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And my second question was why isn't anybody talking about it?

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Because I was looking for, as we tend to do

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in the human experience, you know, we're having a situation

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and we want to know cas, do you know anybody

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who's gone through this that you might put me in

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touch with. I just need to talk to somebody who understands. No. No,

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I just I didn't share with many people, but who

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I did share with, nobody seemed to know anyone. And

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if I couldn't find somebody to talk to in my

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network or my network's network, what in the world, why

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what was happening? And what I ultimately discovered was, of

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course I'm not the only person who you know, had

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a difficult, surprising divorce. But people aren't talking about those

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things because they don't want to be talked about, right,

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So they keep it quiet. And so people who are

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experiencing this ambiguous grief process often isolate and grieve alone.

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And what really surprised me, Cass was as I was

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interviewing others who had identified with the experience, I found

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sometimes I was the only person they'd told. I spoke

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to a woman whose husband had been incarcerated, and she

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wasn't telling anybody. She saw something I had written online

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and reached out to say, oh, yes, you know me too.

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It's so oscillating.

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I actually hadn't even considered that that shame element that

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would keep people from sharing and connecting with other people.

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Right, And it doesn't have to be, you know, it

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really doesn't have to be. And Brene Brown says that

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shame cannot survive if it's put into a Petri dish

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with empathy. Right. So part of why I've started to

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write about this experience and ultimately publish a book about it,

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is so that people can grow their empathy, so we

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can be more compassionate toward one another who go through

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any of these things. Of Course, nobody asks for our

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loved ones to deal with substance abuse or addiction, or

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familial estrangement or any of those things that I mentioned,

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And yet when we go through it, there's such grief

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because of course there was such love. And if we

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could have more compassion for one another, then maybe we

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would have more cast roles than our freezer, you know,

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maybe we could help each other. It sounds like I

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really hung up on the cast roles, I know, but

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I totally get it.

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We all know what you mean by that.

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It's the support, right, Yeah, it's just that emotional support

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and knowing somebody's there and thinking of you, Steph.

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It is interesting.

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I mean, it is often said that divorce can be

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more painful than death, because with death, it's final, you know,

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it's done. It's as traumatic and as painful and as

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awful as it is, there's a line in the sands

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that person's not around anymore, whereas if that person is

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walking around in the world. If you've got children together,

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you've got to see them in another relationship with somebody else,

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if you know that, and it can just it extends

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and extends the complicated nature of that relationship and that loss.

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So you know, it's very valid. It's all I'm I.

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Think you're right, and I think that is actually often said.

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You're right, that it is it is just often said

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by casts, but yes, it's often said. And I think,

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but why that is? And this is what this became

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kind of my hunch as I was going through the

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experience and then as I found my people, because ultimately

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I did. I found a workshop across the country with

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a three month wait of women like me, and it

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was so wonderful to be able to sit in a

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workshop with them for five days, you know, full days,

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every day for five days and be understood. And what

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I saw through myself and what I was able to

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identify because I had this group and we had stayed

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in touch after and we're still in touch all these

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years later, was that there was an additional I don't

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want to call it a stage, but an additional experience,

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a feeling that presents much in the same way that

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Elizabeth Koobler Ross described those stages that we mentioned earlier.

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There was something but I just couldn't put my finger

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on what it was, and I could identify, Oh, I'm

227
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feeling angry right now, and then five minutes later, Oh,

228
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I'm oh, this is here's the depression right or oh

229
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I can tell I'm bargaining, you know, whatever the case

230
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might be where we're trying to kind of return to

231
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a calm homeostasis. But there was one more and I

232
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couldn't couldn't name it, and ultimately ended up partnering with

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a psychologist to develop an assessment tool and a survey

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and we collected data really to see if this would

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emerge because the hypothesis the hunch I had was that

236
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that extra feeling that was popping up was hope, and

237
00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:58.000
the data showed that indeed it was. So why is

238
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to your point, divorce harder than a physical death? I

239
00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:07.080
would say it's because there's hope that emerges, and for

240
00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:10.480
all of those activating events that I just named, hope

241
00:15:10.559 --> 00:15:13.840
is experienced too for those grievers, you know, hope that

242
00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:19.080
the addicted child will kick the addiction and return home,

243
00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:24.159
which is a big one. That a sibling will say, Oh,

244
00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:27.639
I'm sorry for blocking you out of my life for

245
00:15:27.720 --> 00:15:32.399
ten years. Can we talk? You know, or the jail

246
00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:35.600
sentence will be reduced, there will be a cure for Alzheimer's,

247
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whatever the case may be. Grievers can hope that their

248
00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:44.279
loved one will return as they once were. And when

249
00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:48.000
our loved one dies a physical death, you know, had

250
00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:52.559
I been a widow, I would have given a beautiful eulogy.

251
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I would have had all of the support. I would

252
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have not expected him to show up on my doorstep.

253
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Nobody would be hoping for that when our loved one dies.

254
00:16:05.960 --> 00:16:09.879
But when the relationship is broken or changed, and that

255
00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:13.879
person is no longer who they once were to you,

256
00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:19.720
then that hope is something that can be a problem.

257
00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:22.679
Yeah, I was just thinking. I mean, I'm a big

258
00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:23.519
fan of Ted Lasso.

259
00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:26.840
I don't know if you wanted right, it's the hope

260
00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:27.559
that kills you.

261
00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:29.559
That's the quote that kills you.

262
00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:33.039
It's I had a friend give me that shirt? Yes, yeah,

263
00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:34.840
did you? Yes?

264
00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:37.759
I can totally so double edged.

265
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And we don't hear about hope in any negative light really,

266
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and and I always, you know, I kind of say,

267
00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:47.360
dare you to google it and find me something that

268
00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:53.639
isn't beautiful and effervescent and just wonderful and warm about hope.

269
00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:57.000
And we need hope, Do not get me wrong. We yes,

270
00:16:57.080 --> 00:17:02.159
are human. Our humanity needs hope, and hope is powerful.

271
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And you know, Emily Dickinson, of course, has this famous

272
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poem where she says, hope is the thing with feathers

273
00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:14.319
that perches in the soul and sings the tune without

274
00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:17.599
the words and never stops at all, and it just, oh,

275
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it's just so light and beautiful and oh don't we

276
00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:23.039
all want that? And it brings to mind for me

277
00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:25.920
a little Cinderella bluebird, you know, just perched on the

278
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soul and just it knows to keep going. But for

279
00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:33.400
ambiguous grievers, and I'm sure for others, hope can be

280
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kind of, you know, less the Cinderella bluebird and more

281
00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:45.519
the Iago parrot from Lion King, that annoying, squawking, incessant

282
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just stop stop and you know. And so that's what

283
00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:54.640
we found in our research is that there are two

284
00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:57.519
kinds of hope that present for an ambiguous griever. It's

285
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internal hope where we're hoping for our selves and external hope,

286
00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:04.680
where we're hoping or where our hope is directed toward

287
00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:07.359
our loved one. And if we spend too much time

288
00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:10.240
in external hope, which is really easy to do, let

289
00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:15.519
me tell you, then we are at risk for complicated grief,

290
00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:21.079
a grief where you know, we're really just stuck, stuck

291
00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:25.480
and having a difficult time, you know, moving forward with

292
00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:29.400
our life without kind of defining it based on our loss.

293
00:18:29.480 --> 00:18:33.400
But if we can turn that hope inward and start

294
00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:36.200
hoping for ourselves, and you know, instead of doing all

295
00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:39.839
the research to find out you know, the best treatment

296
00:18:39.880 --> 00:18:42.359
centers or the you know, the best doctors or the

297
00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:45.079
best lawyers or whoever you might need to help get

298
00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:48.720
your loved one back to you, as they once were

299
00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:53.039
and took that energy instead and put it into ourselves

300
00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:59.000
kind of accepted the situation we have and grew to

301
00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:04.319
accept that this is my loved one in this new form,

302
00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:07.400
in this new state, and I'm going to give myself

303
00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:10.279
love and self care and I'm going to ask for support,

304
00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:12.279
and I'm you know, what can we do for ourselves?

305
00:19:12.279 --> 00:19:16.519
So I'm a big fan of hope, but hope when misdirected,

306
00:19:16.599 --> 00:19:19.680
can be as as dangerous as it is good. So

307
00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:20.960
we have to we have to watch it.

308
00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:24.319
That is such such a good point. Can I just

309
00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:26.559
ask you, Steff, you just use the word complicated grief?

310
00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:28.480
And I'm just conscious that there might be people listening

311
00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:30.279
who aren't familiar with that term.

312
00:19:30.519 --> 00:19:33.039
Are you able to just you know, I know that

313
00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:33.440
you're not.

314
00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:35.279
The psychologist, but are you able to give a little

315
00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:38.480
explanation of that what complicated grief is? And I think

316
00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:40.839
that's important because we did just say there's no there's

317
00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:42.920
no normal when it comes to grieving, but this is

318
00:19:42.920 --> 00:19:46.839
something to be people should be aware of when grief

319
00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:47.960
becomes complicated.

320
00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:49.960
That that is potentially.

321
00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:51.839
Yes, And again I had no idea because I'm not

322
00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:54.680
a psychologist. I have a public policy degree and have

323
00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:59.039
worked in nonprofit management. So this your world of psychology

324
00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:03.799
is just is new to me. And yes, so who

325
00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:08.000
knew complicated grief is very real and is a kind

326
00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:11.680
of grief where the individual is I don't want to

327
00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:15.000
say obsessed, right, they become focused, they come become hyper

328
00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:18.559
focused on their loss. And so it's too much time

329
00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:23.960
doing that you know, builds and it's it's quicksand it's

330
00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:27.279
you get stuck and it's just you know, it's a

331
00:20:27.319 --> 00:20:31.200
slippery slope down into complicated grief. And and you can,

332
00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:38.279
you can get help, but it requires professional support. Professional help.

333
00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:42.119
Your friend unless they're a licensed therapist or you know,

334
00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:45.319
healthcare professional will not be able to kind of unstuck you.

335
00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:48.720
And and you know, we spoke earlier about well what

336
00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:53.000
is normal? What is what is you know, an acceptable

337
00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:56.880
amount of grieving time? What is an acceptable morning period?

338
00:20:57.559 --> 00:20:59.519
And this is where it gets a little tricky because

339
00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:04.759
who knows it's proportionate to your love, it's your personality.

340
00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:08.000
It has so many different factors that weigh into it.

341
00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:13.519
But for somebody who is in complicated grief, this will

342
00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:17.279
be somebody who has really been hyper focused on their

343
00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:22.920
loss for years, right, So it's if you're listening and

344
00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:25.240
you're thinking, oh, goodness, I've been grieving for six weeks

345
00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:29.839
or six months or eighteen months. Yes, that's understandable. Yes,

346
00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:32.640
And you know, if it gets to be a few

347
00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:36.359
years down the road and you find yourself feeling like

348
00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:40.680
you're unable to move forward with your grief healthfully, you

349
00:21:40.759 --> 00:21:43.880
might want to talk to somebody. And that actually just

350
00:21:43.880 --> 00:21:46.880
brings up another point, if I may, which is that

351
00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:52.799
the goal isn't to get over our grief, right. The

352
00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:55.400
goal isn't to you know, get rid of it and

353
00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:59.119
be done with it, which was news to me because,

354
00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:03.440
again not having the experience except for the physical deaths

355
00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:08.200
of my grandparents, you know, I thought I would be

356
00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:14.079
go through a certain amount of grief and kind of

357
00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:18.880
move it through me and you know, up and at

358
00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:22.039
it and kind of move forward. And what I came

359
00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:24.240
to learn is that indeed, that's not how it works.

360
00:22:24.519 --> 00:22:27.519
And the goal, if you will, is not to get

361
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:29.319
rid of our grief, but to learn how to take

362
00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:31.839
care of it. It's a part of us now, right,

363
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:34.359
and so just as we would take care of any

364
00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:38.119
other part of ourselves, we can learn to take care

365
00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:40.640
of our grief too, so that it doesn't inhibit us

366
00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:44.160
and allows us to we can still carry it and

367
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have a lovely life.

368
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I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the

369
00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:55.359
benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are

370
00:22:55.480 --> 00:22:58.200
enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe

371
00:22:58.200 --> 00:23:00.839
so that you get notified when you strac and head

372
00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:03.200
on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and

373
00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:13.880
leave us a rating and review. Steph, So, as part

374
00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:16.559
of this research that you did to help you to

375
00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:21.240
understand this extra element which led you to the hope,

376
00:23:21.319 --> 00:23:23.599
you went out in you and you spoke too many

377
00:23:23.640 --> 00:23:31.240
many people who were experiencing ambiguous grief. What I'm curious

378
00:23:31.240 --> 00:23:33.680
to know what did you learn from talking to those

379
00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:37.359
people and going through those whether it's interviews or what you.

380
00:23:37.319 --> 00:23:40.079
Did that added to your own understanding.

381
00:23:40.119 --> 00:23:42.880
What did you learn from them that was maybe different

382
00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:44.759
from what you had experienced, And where did you see

383
00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:45.720
the similarities?

384
00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:47.680
I imagine that would have been a kind of a

385
00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:49.720
really interesting process.

386
00:23:49.880 --> 00:23:54.240
It really was. It really was. And you know what

387
00:23:54.359 --> 00:23:59.960
I found in similarity is that boy, our grief really

388
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:04.519
is proportionate to the love we have and grief is

389
00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:09.839
grief is love. You know, when our barista leaves or

390
00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:14.680
our postal carrier, you know, goes to a new route,

391
00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:17.000
we can probably get out of bed the next morning.

392
00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:23.960
When somebody that is really important to us is gone,

393
00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:28.160
of course, we're going to have that proportionate grief and

394
00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:30.400
the sadness and all of the feelings that come with it.

395
00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:36.720
And that did not change across the interviews. That didn't

396
00:24:36.799 --> 00:24:41.839
change through correspondence I received you could you could, or

397
00:24:42.039 --> 00:24:46.480
or the survey data. What I found to be different

398
00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:55.640
and absolutely a game changer was learning about how other

399
00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:04.160
cultures grief and how sterile we are to it here

400
00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:08.359
in the United States at least. And you know, interestingly,

401
00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:11.640
the Queen has just recently passed, and we were able

402
00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:14.799
to see the pageantry and the beauty and the tradition

403
00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:21.000
that came with the ceremony and the ritual of her death,

404
00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:25.640
and it was okay for everybody to grieve publicly. It

405
00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:28.359
was okay for everybody to grieve in all of these ways.

406
00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:32.960
And it was just such a sharp contrast to the

407
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:37.440
day to day grief that we might see, you know,

408
00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:40.640
or really not see here in the United States. We

409
00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:45.880
don't even see hearses on the streets anymore. It's just

410
00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:49.720
a white cargo van that might carry a body from

411
00:25:50.559 --> 00:25:54.960
you know, the place of Oh yeah, isn't that interesting

412
00:25:55.480 --> 00:25:58.799
And and you know, growing up as a kid, we'd

413
00:25:58.839 --> 00:26:02.000
see that all the time, and and it's just interesting.

414
00:26:02.039 --> 00:26:04.799
Now it's uncomfortable, you know, you know, if you're out,

415
00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:07.119
if you're out for a walk at the park and

416
00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:11.359
enjoying your your autumn beverage, maybe you just don't want

417
00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:14.359
to see the hearse drive by. You know. It's it's

418
00:26:14.440 --> 00:26:17.960
really right. So but what I what I found to

419
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:22.839
be incredible, was really just the lack of ritual, the

420
00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:27.839
lack of ceremony for ambiguous scrievers, and the power of

421
00:26:27.960 --> 00:26:32.400
ceremony and ritual in all areas of life. And again,

422
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:37.640
none of us will have the queen's ceremony, right, but

423
00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:41.079
we'll have a eulogy. We can we can imagine, you know,

424
00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:46.400
we'll have the basics. And yet for ambiguous scrievers, there

425
00:26:46.640 --> 00:26:49.799
there's a death of the relationship, but without a body

426
00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:55.079
that's also died, there's no ceremony or ritual that comes

427
00:26:55.079 --> 00:27:00.720
with it. So what I found that was different is

428
00:27:00.759 --> 00:27:04.559
that in some cultures, they they will they have ceremony

429
00:27:04.599 --> 00:27:07.319
for everything I was in. I went to Costa Rica

430
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:11.079
and asked a lot of questions in Costa Rica and

431
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:14.759
worked with Shamans and just really observed how they honor

432
00:27:16.359 --> 00:27:20.440
beginnings and endings. We don't do that here, especially with

433
00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:24.960
our new social media culture, new right social media culture

434
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:27.480
in the last decade, where you know, you can go

435
00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:32.039
on social media and we celebrate beginnings and we should

436
00:27:32.559 --> 00:27:37.079
right engagements and baby showers and new businesses, you know,

437
00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:41.519
the oversized scissors cutting the ribbon. But what happens when

438
00:27:42.559 --> 00:27:47.119
you know there's a miscarriage or a divorce or the

439
00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:53.880
business closes, we don't. We tend to not see those

440
00:27:53.920 --> 00:27:58.759
posts right. And and there's a myriad of reasons why,

441
00:27:58.839 --> 00:28:03.519
and it can certainly be h it's a private matter, sure,

442
00:28:03.559 --> 00:28:06.400
but we don't celebrate our endings. We don't recognize our

443
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:09.079
endings the way that we do our beginnings. And so

444
00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:12.400
what I found to be helpful for me, and have

445
00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:16.160
since recommended for others who have reported that it's been

446
00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:18.799
helpful for them, is to create your own ceremony. And

447
00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:22.000
I call it a faux uneral, which is a little cheesy.

448
00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:25.079
I know, but it's not a funeral in the term,

449
00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:28.680
but it is a faux uneral. And you know, I

450
00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:32.079
had a faux uneral for my marriage and invited my

451
00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:35.720
two dearest closest friends only who knew my marriage, you know,

452
00:28:36.119 --> 00:28:41.279
most closely, and shows music and readings, and I was

453
00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:44.680
able to greet them at the end they spoke, you know,

454
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:46.839
and then I was able to kind of stand and

455
00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:54.079
receive them, and it was so validating because in any

456
00:28:54.200 --> 00:28:59.400
grief we need we need one witness. Grief just needs

457
00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:05.319
one witness to validate the loss for another. That was

458
00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:07.519
really important and it's something we can all do.

459
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:10.200
Yeah, I really like that.

460
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:13.440
And Steph, as you're talking too, I'm thinking about whether

461
00:29:13.480 --> 00:29:18.279
it is ambiguous grief or grief grief. There is also

462
00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:22.519
this kind of time period where people rally a little

463
00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:24.480
and bring.

464
00:29:24.279 --> 00:29:26.640
The cast roles and then it all stops.

465
00:29:28.200 --> 00:29:30.960
And that would have to be the same or compounded

466
00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:34.079
with ambiguous grief. Wouldn't it like that even if somebody

467
00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:37.079
is there and oh, you know, and they're in supporting

468
00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:40.519
you in the beginning, that then people just disappear and

469
00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:42.680
get on with their own lives. And oh, people get

470
00:29:42.680 --> 00:29:45.279
divorced all the time, what's the you know, like.

471
00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:50.680
It's just right, and it's it feels, you know, invalidating right,

472
00:29:50.799 --> 00:29:55.000
and so that's it's so difficult. And again if even

473
00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:57.359
if it as you call it grief grief, which is

474
00:29:57.400 --> 00:29:59.839
what I call it, it's it's I'm glad to hear

475
00:29:59.880 --> 00:30:01.680
you call it that, because I know it's not a

476
00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:07.839
clinical term. But right in traditional grief grief, they it's

477
00:30:07.880 --> 00:30:10.240
the same. And so we as we're learning more about

478
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:13.839
grief and how to support others in grief, we're saying, ask,

479
00:30:13.960 --> 00:30:16.839
say their name, you know, say the person's name, ask,

480
00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:21.160
share a memory. Because you're not reminding somebody that their

481
00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:24.359
loved one has died. They know that they don't need reminding,

482
00:30:24.799 --> 00:30:27.759
So we need not be afraid we're going to make

483
00:30:27.799 --> 00:30:30.680
them sad, upset them because we said, oh, I just

484
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:33.200
remembered I had a wonderful memory of your daughter. And

485
00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:37.759
most times you'll see somebody light up, thank you for

486
00:30:37.839 --> 00:30:41.359
remembering her, thank you for keeping her her memory alive

487
00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:45.720
and saying her name. And you know, for ambiguous grievers,

488
00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:52.400
it's much the same. And yet there can be an

489
00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:59.559
added component where, depending on the type of relationship, break

490
00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:03.279
people people are asked, are not asking for different reasons.

491
00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:06.880
For example, I had I had a woman share once

492
00:31:06.920 --> 00:31:10.960
that her mother, who she was caring for, uh with

493
00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:16.839
cognitive decline and early onset Alzheimer's and then full Alzheimer's.

494
00:31:17.559 --> 00:31:22.279
You know, people weren't asking because there's there is no progress.

495
00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:26.279
It's it's well known that there's no progress in a

496
00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:33.200
cure for Alzheimer's. Whereas if that mother had, say cancer,

497
00:31:34.039 --> 00:31:37.240
and there's treatment at least for cancer, you know she

498
00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:40.559
would maybe maybe people would ask, so because there was

499
00:31:40.599 --> 00:31:43.799
something she could report, Yes, chema went well, Thank you

500
00:31:43.880 --> 00:31:46.440
for asking. Yes, radiation is going well for mom. Thanks

501
00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:51.799
for asking. But people won't ask if they know the

502
00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:57.119
answer right, And so then again they're feeling less, they're

503
00:31:57.119 --> 00:32:01.640
feeling more isolated and alone. And you know, somebody has

504
00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:03.880
said to me, how do I know if I'm an

505
00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:08.599
ambiguous grief And I've said, well, if you're finding yourself

506
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:12.359
wishing that your loved one had cancer instead of Alzheimer's,

507
00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:17.359
or that you're jealous of widows, you might be experiencing

508
00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:20.680
ambiguous grief right because nobody wants to be a widow

509
00:32:20.680 --> 00:32:24.680
and nobody wants a cancer diagnosis. Those aren't. Those aren't

510
00:32:24.680 --> 00:32:27.079
great things to have, They're not good things to have.

511
00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:30.519
And so you know, it's a comparison.

512
00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:31.599
It's a pretty sure song.

513
00:32:31.720 --> 00:32:34.839
Yes, yeah, yeah, and interesting as you say that, I

514
00:32:34.839 --> 00:32:37.160
imagine that many people would struggle to admit that.

515
00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:44.079
Absolutely, absolutely, And it's embarrassing, you know, to say, I, yes,

516
00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:47.839
my friend and I had this conversation. Boy, those widows

517
00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:52.119
again with the cast roles, they're stocked all those Oh

518
00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:55.160
did she got to give that beautiful eulogy in front

519
00:32:55.160 --> 00:33:00.119
of all of those people? You know, and you find it,

520
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:03.880
you know, wanting for yourself and so and this is

521
00:33:03.960 --> 00:33:08.240
really prevalent for those who are touched by addiction, where

522
00:33:09.759 --> 00:33:14.839
you know, as substance abuse rates rise, and you know

523
00:33:14.920 --> 00:33:19.720
there's many addictions of course, gambling addiction, sex addiction, shopping, work, alcohol.

524
00:33:20.119 --> 00:33:25.880
As our loved ones are struggling with these behavioral addictions

525
00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:30.240
or the substance addictions, the shame and embarrassment that's often

526
00:33:30.279 --> 00:33:36.079
attached keeps people from reaching out and therefore you know,

527
00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:42.359
getting the support. And so, oh, if only my child

528
00:33:42.440 --> 00:33:45.480
would have this, or if only my husband had had

529
00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:48.920
an accident, it would have been easier. Oh, that's a

530
00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:52.559
dangerous mind game to play with yourself wishing for something.

531
00:33:53.759 --> 00:33:54.799
Else stuff.

532
00:33:54.839 --> 00:33:58.519
So as part of your process, you then have, together

533
00:33:58.559 --> 00:34:01.960
with a psychologist, have formulated a process, the process that

534
00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:07.279
never existed which you were looking for.

535
00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:10.000
For moving through? Is that fat to say? Ambiguous grief?

536
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:13.239
Can you I know you've written about this in your book,

537
00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:16.760
but can you talk us through what that process involves?

538
00:34:16.760 --> 00:34:19.480
Well? Absolutely, thank you for asking. You know, I think

539
00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:24.000
first and foremost, it's identifying that this is what you're

540
00:34:24.039 --> 00:34:27.280
experiencing when we lose a loved one. We can you

541
00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:31.000
know to any of those activating events that I listed, Well,

542
00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:33.199
this is life and the stinks and I'm sad, and

543
00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:35.039
boy it's hard to go to work. You know, we

544
00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:37.719
might just kind of have these observations about ourselves or

545
00:34:37.719 --> 00:34:41.760
about our experience, but not really give ourselves permission to grieve.

546
00:34:42.519 --> 00:34:46.920
And so simply by knowing that this is a normal

547
00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:51.679
response to loss, to an important loss, is the first

548
00:34:51.719 --> 00:34:55.639
step just understanding giving yourself that permission. And all of

549
00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:58.679
those activating events I listed, I'm sure there are more

550
00:34:58.840 --> 00:35:02.719
that I've not uncovered. And so if your loss was

551
00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:05.519
not in the list, it doesn't mean that you're not

552
00:35:05.719 --> 00:35:10.159
experiencing ambiguous grief, right, And so that would be the

553
00:35:10.199 --> 00:35:13.559
first part. And then allowing yourself to really go through

554
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:17.119
the experience of those feelings. And I say, if we

555
00:35:17.159 --> 00:35:22.519
can get better at identifying what feelings are coming up

556
00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:27.199
within us and allowing them to move through us and

557
00:35:27.239 --> 00:35:30.639
not resist it, it will be you know, clouds in

558
00:35:30.679 --> 00:35:35.800
the sky. It moves us, they will pass. And of course,

559
00:35:35.880 --> 00:35:38.440
as you know, there are wonderful tools to help us

560
00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:43.920
do that. And mindfulness and meditation are new to me

561
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:48.599
and my favorites. They are always at our disposal to use.

562
00:35:49.719 --> 00:35:53.519
They're easy, and they are game changers in our consciousness

563
00:35:53.559 --> 00:35:57.760
and our awareness and being able to discern what is

564
00:35:57.760 --> 00:35:59.920
in our control and what is not in our control

565
00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:03.519
can come from mindfulness. And when we do that, then

566
00:36:03.559 --> 00:36:08.159
we're setting ourselves up to encounter hope, which is kind

567
00:36:08.199 --> 00:36:12.400
of the middle of the process and so understanding, oh,

568
00:36:12.440 --> 00:36:15.559
this is hope that I'm feeling, and oh, I see

569
00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:20.800
that I've been manically researching and trying to fix this,

570
00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:27.360
trying to bring the relationship back for whatever reason. Right,

571
00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:32.000
some people will say, I don't I'm fine if she

572
00:36:32.119 --> 00:36:36.199
or he is back in our home with substance abuse.

573
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:39.840
I just want them back in the home, and you

574
00:36:39.880 --> 00:36:43.159
know or I for whatever reason, there's bargaining that's also

575
00:36:43.239 --> 00:36:46.199
involved in how to get the person back with you.

576
00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:52.800
But understanding that hope is kind of a double agent, right,

577
00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:56.480
It's it's you can be on the roundabout of hope.

578
00:36:56.880 --> 00:37:00.360
You can cycle kind of a figure eight through internal hope,

579
00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:03.920
external hope, internal hope, external hope. And the more which

580
00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:08.079
is normal and the more you can practice internal hope

581
00:37:08.159 --> 00:37:12.559
and redirect the external hope, because remember external hope is

582
00:37:12.760 --> 00:37:16.920
that has kind of a Candyland slide down to complicated grief.

583
00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:23.519
The more we can practice internal hope, the more we

584
00:37:23.599 --> 00:37:25.960
will be able to move through to the path of

585
00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:33.000
what we call grief recovery. And I don't even really

586
00:37:33.079 --> 00:37:36.880
like the word recovery because the etymology of the word

587
00:37:38.760 --> 00:37:47.679
is to cover over something unsightly. And after going through

588
00:37:47.800 --> 00:37:56.119
the process of ambiguous grief, it's changed me, it changes anyone, right,

589
00:37:56.360 --> 00:37:59.000
And I don't want to recover. I don't want to

590
00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:03.440
cover that grief. I don't want to pretend it wasn't there.

591
00:38:04.679 --> 00:38:09.480
And so it's a regeneration almost right where yeah.

592
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:11.400
I'm feeling like it's integrating it.

593
00:38:11.400 --> 00:38:16.880
It is absolutely integration and just being able to integrate

594
00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:23.199
as we would any newness to our physical self. Right,

595
00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:26.440
or if you were you know, you have I can

596
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:28.719
see you have beautiful blue eyes. If you were to

597
00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:32.960
have loss of vision in one eye, you would learn

598
00:38:33.039 --> 00:38:39.159
to adapt and integrate your new reality. Right. For whatever

599
00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:43.280
experience we might have, whether it's a you know, a

600
00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:48.000
diagnosis of diabetes or hearing loss or site loss or

601
00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:50.760
whatever the case, maybe we learned to integrate our world

602
00:38:51.440 --> 00:38:56.960
with our new physicality. And so with this new physiology

603
00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:00.960
on set with ambiguous grief, yeah, we have to integrate

604
00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:03.639
it and we can. We just have to start by

605
00:39:03.639 --> 00:39:05.480
talking about it as a first step.

606
00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:12.920
Yes, I'm curious to ask your opinion, Steph about with

607
00:39:13.039 --> 00:39:15.000
the pandemic, there was a lot of talk about what

608
00:39:15.039 --> 00:39:21.719
you're feeling is ambiguous grief or ambiguous loss because we again,

609
00:39:21.800 --> 00:39:24.280
all of our loved ones are still alive, but we

610
00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:28.559
often couldn't see them because of lockdowns. Often we lost

611
00:39:28.760 --> 00:39:31.760
our usual structures and routines and the way that the

612
00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:33.280
way that we lived our life.

613
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:35.039
What are your thoughts about that?

614
00:39:35.320 --> 00:39:37.719
About do you feel like for some people the experience

615
00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:41.880
of going through the pandemic was an experience that could

616
00:39:41.920 --> 00:39:43.280
be called ambiguous greef I.

617
00:39:43.239 --> 00:39:48.400
Do, I do? It's you know, And ambiguous loss was

618
00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:52.360
kind of my first stop as I was seeking my

619
00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:55.960
own experience. And ambiguous loss is a term that was

620
00:39:56.000 --> 00:40:00.599
coined in the nineties by doctor Pauline Boss, who was actitioner,

621
00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:06.880
and she was observing individuals who were experiencing the loss

622
00:40:07.719 --> 00:40:11.320
of their loved one with an uncertainty of physical death.

623
00:40:11.480 --> 00:40:16.440
So a soldier missing an action, a child who's been kidnapped,

624
00:40:16.679 --> 00:40:21.119
or somebody swept away in a tsunami, all horrible tragic

625
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:24.880
experiences for a loved one to endure and wait word,

626
00:40:25.719 --> 00:40:27.519
and so they're kind of stuck in this. I call

627
00:40:27.559 --> 00:40:30.280
it kind of a grief purgatory where they don't know

628
00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:36.719
if they should be grieving or holding vigil and holding

629
00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:40.840
onto every ounce of hope. Right. And then doctor Boss's

630
00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:46.880
work was later evolved to add a psychological loss with

631
00:40:46.920 --> 00:40:50.480
a physical presence like Alzheimer's. So that was very close

632
00:40:50.480 --> 00:40:53.119
for me, but it was not quite because in my case,

633
00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:57.000
my loss wasn't ambiguous. My grief was ambiguous. I didn't

634
00:40:57.000 --> 00:41:00.760
know how to grieve it, and I was looking for

635
00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:04.960
somebody who had gone through it. Who could say, here's

636
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:08.440
why it feels different, and here's what you can do

637
00:41:08.519 --> 00:41:13.679
about it. Right, So just to kind of pose those

638
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:16.360
two things. And so I think when the pandemic came,

639
00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:18.239
I think it was a little bit of both. I

640
00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:21.119
think it was an ambiguous loss because we are in

641
00:41:21.199 --> 00:41:25.800
that purgatory of waiting, well, certainly we'll be going back

642
00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:29.239
to the office, right, and certainly we'll be together by

643
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:33.039
you know, this holiday or that holiday. And so there

644
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:35.679
was a mix of that. And then there's the mix

645
00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:41.559
of the grief, where so we have this loss, ambiguous loss,

646
00:41:41.559 --> 00:41:44.000
and we have this ambiguous grief where we don't know

647
00:41:44.079 --> 00:41:47.239
how to get through it and we don't know, we

648
00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:51.440
don't know that what we're experiencing is grief. And if

649
00:41:51.480 --> 00:42:01.039
our identity is inextricably linked to a person or a

650
00:42:01.039 --> 00:42:06.440
a role, whether it be wife or manager or CEO

651
00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:10.519
or individual contributor or daughter, whatever it might be. In

652
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:13.639
the case of the pandemic, when people were no longer

653
00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:19.639
able to fulfill their work identity, there is that loss

654
00:42:19.719 --> 00:42:23.920
and then there is that grief. How am I? Who

655
00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:28.320
am I? If I am not this without this other entity? Right?

656
00:42:29.119 --> 00:42:33.000
And you know, I think for a lot of people

657
00:42:33.039 --> 00:42:37.239
it was the first taste of grief that they'd experienced.

658
00:42:37.400 --> 00:42:40.960
And it was actually an article that was written in

659
00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:50.519
The Atlantic magazine that prompted my literary agent to call

660
00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:54.840
me and say, I just I just read about this

661
00:42:55.199 --> 00:43:01.519
and just read your proposal, and I think this is timely. Wow. Right,

662
00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:05.360
So you know, I think grief is part of our

663
00:43:05.400 --> 00:43:12.239
human experience, Thank goodness, because it is love. And if

664
00:43:12.280 --> 00:43:17.639
we're going to live in love, and if love is

665
00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:20.760
all there is and again all the effusiveness of love,

666
00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:23.599
yes we want more of course, then we have to

667
00:43:23.679 --> 00:43:27.239
understand that, you know, grief is love's invoice. One of

668
00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:31.239
us will be paying the bill, so to speak. If

669
00:43:31.239 --> 00:43:34.320
we're going to love, then we have to know. And

670
00:43:34.360 --> 00:43:37.960
we don't because we don't talk about our endings because

671
00:43:37.960 --> 00:43:41.599
we don't know how to go through our endings because

672
00:43:41.639 --> 00:43:45.920
it's not modeled for us publicly in a in a

673
00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:49.639
in a normal way. You know, it's time to normalize

674
00:43:49.639 --> 00:43:56.760
it and recognize that what it, recognize the different kinds

675
00:43:56.800 --> 00:44:00.400
of grief so that we can support one another as

676
00:44:00.440 --> 00:44:01.400
we experience it.

677
00:44:02.800 --> 00:44:08.000
I'm so glad to have had this opportunity to share

678
00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:11.719
this conversation with all of our listeners. I think this

679
00:44:11.840 --> 00:44:14.639
is so important and steph for anybody who is listening

680
00:44:15.079 --> 00:44:18.920
who would like to learn more about your work or

681
00:44:18.920 --> 00:44:21.599
how you can support them, or how to access your

682
00:44:21.639 --> 00:44:23.719
process or your book, can you just give me a

683
00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:26.719
little quick rundown so that people know where to find you.

684
00:44:26.920 --> 00:44:31.519
Well, sure, thank you, thank you. Yes. So. I started

685
00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:37.360
an online resource rise uprooted dot net and there are

686
00:44:37.400 --> 00:44:42.760
some stories there and other resources for people going through

687
00:44:42.760 --> 00:44:46.079
ambiguous grief or wondering if they might be. You can

688
00:44:46.119 --> 00:44:50.880
go to ambiguous grief dot com where you'll see my

689
00:44:51.000 --> 00:44:53.800
work with doctor Sophia Cardle and you can take the

690
00:44:53.840 --> 00:44:57.400
assessment yourself and find out if you might need to

691
00:44:57.800 --> 00:45:01.199
speak with a psychologist or therapist to help you through.

692
00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:06.480
And there's also a survey there for Hope and I'd

693
00:45:06.519 --> 00:45:08.400
really appreciate that if you could take a minute and

694
00:45:08.719 --> 00:45:10.760
answer some questions on hope that if you think that

695
00:45:10.880 --> 00:45:15.039
might be you. And also my own website is Stephanie

696
00:45:15.239 --> 00:45:18.400
Sarazin dot com and my book is Soul Broken, a

697
00:45:18.440 --> 00:45:22.880
Guidebook for your Journey through Ambiguous Grief, and is available

698
00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:26.519
October eleventh. My hope for the book is that it

699
00:45:26.599 --> 00:45:30.599
is helpful for others. It's the book I wish I

700
00:45:30.639 --> 00:45:33.480
would have had. It's the book I wanted all those

701
00:45:33.559 --> 00:45:37.920
years ago, and I hope that it helps others through

702
00:45:37.960 --> 00:45:40.519
their painful time so they know that they are not alone.

703
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:43.159
I have no doubt that it will. Thank you so much,

704
00:45:43.199 --> 00:45:45.159
step It's been such a pleasure to have you on

705
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the show. I really appreciate it.

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Oh, I appreciate you, Cass, thanks for the important work

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you're doing. I'm so grateful to have been in conversation

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with you today.

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Steph's new book again is called Soul Broken, a Godbooks

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for your journey through ambiguous grief. Steph's website is Stephanie

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Sarazen dot com. I'll put that link down in the

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show notes. Remember, if you love Crappy to Happy, please

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do make sure that you subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

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Leave us at five.

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Star rating and review. It really does help us to

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find you listeners. If you would like to connect with me,

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I'm on Instagram and TikTok at cast Done Underscore XO,

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and you can find out all about otherwise.

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You can work with me.

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My online courses my books are all on castdone dot com.

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I cannot wait to catch you on the next episode

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of Crappy to Happy listener