Sept. 26, 2023

Beating Burnout with Amelia Nagoski

Beating Burnout with Amelia Nagoski
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Beating Burnout with Amelia Nagoski
Beating Burnout with Amelia Nagoski
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Season 10 Women's Health And Wellbeing Personal Growth & Healing Physical Health

Cass sits down with Amelia Nagoski, who co-authored (with her identical twin sister, Emily Nagoski) the NYT bestselling book, "Burnout: The Secret to Solving Your Stress Cycle".Amelia shares that it is not just being a woman trying to meet society's "unmeetable expectations" that is a primary cause of burnout, but falling anywhere outside of what the mainstream considers to be the 'norm' in terms of race, sex, gender, appearance or ability. Listen to hear about:

  • Human Giver Syndrome and why it's a fundamental cause of burnout
  • The Headwinds/Tailwinds metaphor that perfectly describes why we're blind to our own privilege
  • What you can do immediately to solve your stress cycle and prevent burnout


Buy "Burnout" on BooktopiaBuy the Burnout workbook on Booktopia
Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
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Join the free 7-day Happiness Challenge:www.cassdunn.com/happiness

Connect with Cass:

www.cassdunn.com
www.instagram.com/cassdunn_xo

Contact Crappy to Happy:

Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
www.crappytohappypod.com
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www.tiktok.com/@crappytohappypod


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Transcript
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This is Crappita Happy and I am your host Castunn.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist. I'm mindfulness meditation teacher

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and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In

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this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent

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people who are experts in their field and who have

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something of value to share that will help you feel

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less crappy.

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And more happy.

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Emily and Amelia Nagoski are identical twins who co authored

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a book called Burnout, The Secret to Solving Your Stress

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Cycle back in twenty nineteen. In the book, that make

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the argument that the gap between what it's really like

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to be a woman and what people expect of women

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is a primary cause of burnout because we are exhausting

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ourselves trying to close the gap between the two. They

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offer suggestions for how you can complete the biological stress

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cycle and explain why that is so important, and they

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also argue that rest, human connection, and being kind to

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yourself are key to recovering from and preventing burnout. I've

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been excited to get either Emily or Amelia or both

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of them on the podcast for a very long time,

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so I was thrilled that after all this time, we

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were finally able to make it happen. I hope you

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enjoy this conversation with Amelia Lagoski. Amelia, Welcome to The

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Crappy the Happy Podcast. It is such a pleasure to

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meet you today.

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It's my pleasure to be here.

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I talk about your book Burnout. The title the book

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that I've got the copy that I've got is called

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Solve Your Stress Cycle. I think it's got different titles

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on different versions. But I've been talking about this book

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since it came out a few years ago and have

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really really wanted to get you or your sister Emily

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onto the show to talk about the book because I

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talk about you all the time. So I really appreciate

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that we can finally make it happen.

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Amelia.

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Let's start, I guess, with the definition of burnout, and

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once we get that over and down with them, we

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can get into the rest of the conversation. But I

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really feel like that's an important place to start. We

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all kind of know what it feels like to be

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burnt out, but there is a technical kind of definition

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for it.

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So what is it?

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Yeah, it was first kind of fight in the nineteen seventies,

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by a research psychologist named Herbert Freudenberger, who defined it

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as having three primary characteristics. The first is emotional exhaustion,

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the second is decreased sense of accomplishment, and the third

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is depersonalization, so feeling emotionally exhausted, so drained, depersonalization. Nothing

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you do matters, It doesn't matter if you're the one

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doing it. It has no like larger wide scale and

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decreased sense of accomplishment, which is that what you're doing.

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Oh, I got that kind of.

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Confused with depersonalization, but a decreased sense of accomplishment and depersonalization, Yeah,

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they're related anyway. But the most signific one, especially in women,

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as it's been found in the research since that established definition,

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is emotional exhaustion. It is the most overwhelming and impactful

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of the three characteristics. But it's important to know that

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it is not a mental illness. It's not a medical diagnosis.

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It's a condition that's brought on by external factors.

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Yeah, it's right now. I was also interested. So back

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in twenty nineteen, there was a lot of hohoha around

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about the fact that the ICD ten had I think

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was the ICD ten or eleven that the 'round eleven

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now yeah, round eleven now had included burnout as an

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occupational phenomenon. Was that happened before or after you published

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this book, because your book came out in twenty nineteen,

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didn't it.

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Yes, we were not considering the medical definitions or ramifications.

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I mean, the reason things get included in the ICD

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is for like insurance purposes to see what is going

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to get paid for by insurance companies or other kinds

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of medical payment systems. And for example, the WHO also

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recently included burnout in its things that it is studying

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and measuring because they're impactful to a population. But again,

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the purposes of them including that definition are not to

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help individuals who are trying to figure out what's wrong

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with them and why they feel the way they feel

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their jobs. The WHO or the ICD is to tell

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providers and institutions and governments who control policy, Hey, your

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policies are creating this impact, so here are the changes

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you need to make to prevent that. Yeah that makes sense.

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Yeah, yeah, no, yah, it definitely does. I was just

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it was interesting to me remains interesting to me that

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they very specifically say that this is an occupational phenomenon.

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It's to do with the workplace, and it shouldn't be generalized.

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And obviously, you me, everybody who has ever had anything

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to do with burnout.

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Knows that very clearly.

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There are a lot of situations in life, experiences in

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life that can contribute to burnout. I mean, emotional exhaustion, depersonalization,

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and reduced sense of efficacy happen in lots of areas

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of life, not just work, right.

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And indeed, the job of the WHO. The reason that

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they were being specific about this is work related is

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because that's the only kind they were concerned with. Like

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parental burnout and social justice burnout and caregiver burnout are

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all things that of course impact people and are very real,

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but they're not the Who's business.

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You're right, right, yeah, And now you also, you say

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in the book that you had a very personal experience

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of burnout, So you're partially motivated to write this book

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because you had had that experience.

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Do you want to tell me about that?

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Yeah? I have a doctor of Musical Arts. My expertise

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is choral conducting. I stand in front of acquires and

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help them sing their best the love that's my real job.

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But it was in getting my doctor degree in music

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that I became an expert in the science of burnout

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because I have an identical twin sister, who is Emily Nagoski, PhD,

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who had already written a New York Times bestselling book

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called Come As You Are, The Surprising You Science that

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Will Transform Your Sex Life. And so this book about

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the science of women's sexuality. When Emily would talk about

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it with women, they would come up to her and say,

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you know, yeah, yeah, oh, that sex science was great.

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But you know, the one thing that really helped me

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was that like one part that was about you know,

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processing feelings and dealing with your emotions and stress, because

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it turns out the number one predictor of a woman's

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sexual well being is her overall well being. So Emily

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was like, but I talked about so much in that book,

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why is that the one thing? And I reminded her

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that when I had learned those things, well, I had

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originally learned them in my conservatory training as a musician,

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like for the purpose of performing on stage, for expressing

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emotion and being a performer, but I didn't learn to

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transfer that skill to my everyday living and when I

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did learn it, and that's the stuff she practically addresses

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in her book In Practical Ways. That saved my life

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right twice. And so when I reminded her of that,

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she was like, Uh, well we should write a book

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about that.

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Yeah.

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I was hospitalized twice in my in my doctor program

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for stress induce stillness. Yeah.

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Wow, And it's serious. It is serious.

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So what you're saying is that as a as a conductor,

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you're learning to like process feelings with your body basically

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or but not actually having fully comprehended that you need

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to do that, not just when you're conducting, like in

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your in the rest of life. I need to be

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processing my feelings are they're going to be stuck in

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my body.

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Yeah. There was a very specific moment when Emily had

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brought me this stack of peer viewed research and I'm

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reading a book about emotions and stuff, and it says

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on the page emotions are held in the body. And

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I just felt this stab in my chest, like some

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kind of truth had just kind of cracked me open.

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And I sat on my kitchen floor sobbing for and

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called Emily and was like, this book says that emotions

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are in your body, and she was like, you're a conductor.

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How can you not know that? And like I knew

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that at some tiny service level. Would look, all my emotions,

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my whole life have been in my body this whole time.

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Oh my god, that is such an overwhelming thought because

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I had never processed them or felt them, or like

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let them do what they are supposed to do. So yes,

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of course, all those times my body reacted to things

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with their normal neurochemical responses, the stress response, which prepares

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you for fight or flight. Every time I actually felt that,

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I just like shut it down. But like, where did

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all those neurotransmitters go. What happened to all that muscular

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preparedness to fight or flee? Well, it just got it

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just got stuck. And you know, poisoned.

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Me, right, And that is exactly literally.

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It's inflammation is what it causes and where in your

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body and how it causes that inflammation and what impact

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that has on your health will vary from individual individual.

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But that had happened to me to the point that

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I that I needed, you know, emergent urgent acute medical intervention.

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Yeah, it's scary stuff. It's scary stuff. And when you say,

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like how did I not know that? I think that

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many people and I know many people listening to this,

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like you can understand something, but intellectually yeah yeah, you know,

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but that often that doesn't still translate to you.

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Oh oh you mean I've got to actually you mean

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feel it? I mean yeah, you feel it in my body?

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Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. And for I mean Emily and

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I are identical raise in the same household, and for her,

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feel your feelings is a natural, self evident thing. She

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her awareness of her internal sensations and her internal states

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is so loud to her. Her body communicates her at

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such a volume, communicates with her at such a volume

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that she can't ignore it. The slightest thing goes wrong,

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and she's like, wait, I have to stup everything and

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fix whatever's wrong. And I am the literal opposite end

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of the spectrum where I have to sit so still

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and quiet to hear any kind of sensations or to

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get any kind of instructions from my body as to

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what it needs. And so there's just no telling who

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where on the spectrum you fall. Maybe everybody in your

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family seems to like know how to listen to your body,

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and you're like, but I don't even know what those

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words mean. The good news is for people who think

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that that sounds like this woo meaningless expression, listen to

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your body. Always hated that expression. But it is a

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learnable skill. It's a thing you can learn to do

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with practice and get better at you can.

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That is good news.

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So one of the key I mean right up front

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in the book, one of the first concepts that you introduce,

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which was so profound to me, and I'm a psychologist,

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is that you have to complete the stress cycle. So

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this idea that the stress has to move through you

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can you just talk us through that?

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Yeah, this is the foundation of why stress impacts your health.

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That in the environment of evolutionary adaptiveness, we developed a

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stress response cycle to save us from things with teeth

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and claws that could run forty miles an hour, so

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that you know, when here comes the sabertoothed tiger. Little

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you know, proto us down by the water would see

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yeah tiger and get flooded with adrenaline and cortisol and

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corticoids and all of the neurotransmitters electrical signals to change

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every system in our body to prepare us to save

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our own lives by running away. That's the choice right now.

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I think with the saber tooth tiger, you're not gonna

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punch it in the face. So your heart rate increases,

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your respiration gets deeper, all to provide more oxygen to

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your muscles so they can burn that oxygen to get

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you away faster and stronger. Now, these things might happen

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above the level of conscious awareness. You can feel your

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heart pounding, you can feel your breath getting deeper or harder.

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You might feel like your skin prickle or your hair

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stand on end, or kind of a flush of the

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blood moving. But there's a lot of stuff happening below

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the level of conscious awareness that even you, you know,

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super inter receptive people will not be aware of. Like,

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your immune system is a system that takes a lot

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of energy. So in the moment of fight or flight,

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one of the messages that get sent is your immune

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system learns I need to like take a back seat

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right now, because who cares about malaria when there's a tiger.

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There's a saber tooth tiger about to mal us to death.

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And your reproductive system takes a lot of energy and

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it also gets the message, hey, hey, like chill out.

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We don't need to worry about babies right now because

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sabertoothed tiger. So these systems get altered without our conscious awareness.

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And when we're running away from the tiger, we run,

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we we climb, We hied in the cleft of the rock,

243
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and then we look out and the and the and

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the tiger's walking away like we escaped. That's we're fine,

245
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we're safe now. And we had run and we had

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burned up all of that energy, used all of the

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preparedness that our body created in order to save our lives.

248
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And what that feels like at the end is this

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huge relief. Like it might feel very calm and it's

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like warm and open to the universe, or it might

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feel like excited and jumping up and down and the

252
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sunshine and it's brighter and the sky is bluer, and

253
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want to hug your friends and family and tell the

254
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story to everyone. But we definitely feel a shift from

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danger to action to recovery where we return to a

256
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baseline where our body knows that it's safe and in

257
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the twenty first century, it's not tigers and we cannot

258
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escape them. The things that cause our stress with fight

259
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or flight so we need to deal with the things

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that initiate a stress response cycle by not fighting or fleeing,

261
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by smiling and being polite and standing in line and

262
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waiting our turn and filling out the forms and voting.

263
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But that doesn't mean that the fighter flight didn't happen.

264
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So the secret is to separate those into two processes,

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where you're dealing with a thing that causes your stress

266
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in a separate process from the process of dealing with

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the stress in your body.

268
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Yeah, so stress or versus stress. The thing that causes

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you the stress, and then this stress in your body

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is well, in the situation you just described, we've burnt

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it off, like, we've moved it through.

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It's done its job. It's got us to safety.

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Yes, Whereas now when I'm just stressed about my emails

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and my deadlines and my you know, my commute, you know,

275
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like exactly, I don't I work from home.

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But for people, you know.

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The whatever it might be that it's causing that stress,

278
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I can deal with all of that, but I'm not.

279
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I'm not moving it through my body exactly, So exactly doing.

280
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Something to work that all of that adrenaline and cortisol

281
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and everything else that's pumping through me to get it out, Yeah,

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to complete.

283
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The stress response cycle, so that you can return your

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body to a state of knowing that it's safe. And

285
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the important thing for me was understanding that that stress

286
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can build up below the level of conscious awareness. That

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doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Just because I don't

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feel it doesn't mean it's not there.

289
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Yeah. Yeah, yeah, So I don't want to spend it

290
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low because people can read it in the book. I mean,

291
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you know, you just said, you know, running, that's exercise.

292
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That's a good one.

293
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At a population level, it is the most efficient any

294
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kind of movement of your body.

295
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So this is why we should move our body like regularly.

296
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Yeah, but understanding that, Like my identical twin sister raised

297
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in the same household with me, it was always a

298
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natural exerciser. She could like go for a bike ride.

299
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She doesn't want to go, She's like, oh, I know

300
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I should. So she gets on the bike and she

301
00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:32.600
goes for a ride, and she like crests the hill

302
00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:37.279
at the top of the Pennsylvania farmland and can see

303
00:16:37.279 --> 00:16:40.559
the cows and the chickens and the moon and this

304
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whatever is up and she feels like at one with everything,

305
00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:46.480
and she gets back and she's like, yeah, I feel better,

306
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And I thought she was making that up because like

307
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people vary, and Emily and I are identical twins, and

308
00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:57.120
yet our experience of the efficacy of physical activity for

309
00:16:57.159 --> 00:17:00.639
relieving stress is the polar opposite. Some people, it's just

310
00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:03.799
not as true. And there's also just like practical matters,

311
00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:07.559
like you might have a physical disability that prevents you

312
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from getting the kind of physical movement that tells your

313
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body that it's capable of moving you from danger to safety.

314
00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:16.680
Or you might live in a neighborhood where you go

315
00:17:16.799 --> 00:17:19.880
for a walk to like complete that stress response cycle

316
00:17:20.119 --> 00:17:22.720
and you get cat called, and now your physical activity

317
00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:25.880
has become a source of stress instead of a way

318
00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:28.359
of relieving your stress. Or maybe your trans and you

319
00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:30.440
go to gym and if you dare to use a

320
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locker room, you might be taking your life in your hands.

321
00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:36.359
So it's just not as simple as physical activity can

322
00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:39.839
help manage your stress, Like there's so many factors that

323
00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:42.799
say that sometimes that's just not true. Sometimes it's just

324
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not going to happen because we live in the twenty

325
00:17:44.680 --> 00:17:47.680
first century. But if you can find a way to

326
00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:51.200
move your body in a way that reminds it that

327
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it has the capacity to protect you. It's good for you.

328
00:17:56.359 --> 00:17:57.960
But the good news is there are so many other ways,

329
00:17:57.960 --> 00:17:59.640
and we name like twelve in the book.

330
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Yeah.

331
00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:03.000
Among them are laughter, just a good night's sleep if

332
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you have access to that, and honestly, if you change

333
00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:07.920
anything about your life to manage stress better, let it

334
00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:10.480
be improving your sleep quality. And again we have a

335
00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:13.000
whole chapter about sleep, and there are whole books written

336
00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:16.079
about sleep that I'm sure you've talked about sleep a lot.

337
00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:18.720
It's important, yes, Yeah.

338
00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:24.519
And also social connection connection to nature or other people

339
00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:28.880
or animals, or a divine loving presence or your own

340
00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:32.759
innertal any sense of connection can also help creative self

341
00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:36.039
expression using your imagination. These are all things that can

342
00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:38.000
help complete the stress response cycle. So if you're like

343
00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:41.279
all those runners who are like, yeah, makes you feel

344
00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:43.200
so much better and the way to the world is

345
00:18:43.240 --> 00:18:45.599
lifted on my shoulders. If you're that person with the runner,

346
00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:48.240
go do it. But if you're not, if you're like me,

347
00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:52.319
there are so many other things, and you probably know

348
00:18:52.680 --> 00:18:55.759
you've probably done a thing where you you know, for me,

349
00:18:55.920 --> 00:18:58.079
it was like get out of a rehearsal and you

350
00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:02.519
feel like fresh, like like you've shed a skin, or

351
00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:06.200
like you've you know, just eaten the most nutritious salad

352
00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:09.119
you've ever had, and you feel just like strong and powerful.

353
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And that for me, that was that was music. So

354
00:19:12.839 --> 00:19:15.039
if you can imagine whatever in your life you've ever

355
00:19:15.079 --> 00:19:19.359
felt that like refreshed, powerful, ready for anything, or it's

356
00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:24.160
just euphoric joy, ecstasy, that that might be the thing

357
00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:26.079
that you that does it for you.

358
00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:29.079
Yeah, that's the important thing, isn't it finding something that

359
00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:33.240
works for you? And the other thing, the really talient

360
00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:35.279
point that you make in the book is that, you know,

361
00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:39.359
when we're talking about burnout and being you know, emotional

362
00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:43.799
exhaustion and being chronically stressed, because you can come home

363
00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:45.319
and go for you run or listen, you know, do

364
00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:47.359
whatever it is that you do, or call a friend

365
00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:50.200
and vent and complete the stress cycle and then you

366
00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:53.200
go back the next day, like you know, then you

367
00:19:53.240 --> 00:19:55.720
go back into the same job the next day. So

368
00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:58.079
for some of us, it might be the job, it

369
00:19:58.119 --> 00:20:00.440
might be the relationship, it might be care caring for

370
00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:05.039
somebody else who's chronically ill. But sometimes we can't escape immediately.

371
00:20:05.480 --> 00:20:07.880
The thing that's causing us the stress. So at the

372
00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:11.160
least we can do right is to support ourselves to

373
00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:13.839
somehow try to at least complete the stress cycle.

374
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:17.200
Absolutely. So this is how we define burned out of

375
00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:20.160
the book is the feeling of being overwhelmed and exhausted

376
00:20:20.200 --> 00:20:22.680
by everything you have to do, and yet still somehow

377
00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:27.279
worried you're not doing enough. You're doing so much that

378
00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:30.160
you can't possibly do anymore. But clearly you're supposed to

379
00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:34.519
be doing more. Like that feeling of overwhelm, Yeah, you're

380
00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:37.720
probably burned out if that's the case, and yeah, Step

381
00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:41.640
one is to find a thing that makes you feel

382
00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:46.039
that ready for anything connected to something larger than yourself,

383
00:20:46.519 --> 00:20:51.359
something that eases your discomfort without just being numbing.

384
00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:53.200
And good.

385
00:20:53.240 --> 00:20:55.599
I mean, maybe the first thing to do is to numb,

386
00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:57.759
like if you have to numb to get through a moment.

387
00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:01.160
We are not anti numbing. It's part of the process.

388
00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:04.039
If you went to a hospital with a wound, you

389
00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:06.359
would be really mad if they didn't give you some numbing,

390
00:21:06.359 --> 00:21:09.000
and they and also be bad medical care if they

391
00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:11.759
tried to like heal a wound without numbing it first.

392
00:21:11.799 --> 00:21:14.359
That would be bad medical care. Because we know that

393
00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:18.839
pain slows healing, and that is true for your mind too.

394
00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:22.680
You need to be able to handle pain or discomfort

395
00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:25.759
so that it doesn't slow your process. However, if all

396
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:27.440
they did was numb you up and then send you

397
00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:29.000
on your way, you would also be mad because that

398
00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:32.160
is also bad medical care. It needs to be tolerable.

399
00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:35.079
But then you need to do the uncomfortable stuff too,

400
00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:38.319
like washing it out and sewing it up, and so

401
00:21:39.799 --> 00:21:42.319
if you need to temporarily, just know that that's not

402
00:21:42.519 --> 00:21:47.359
the end, that's just the beginning. So think of whatever

403
00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:49.720
that thing is that is not just numbing, like you know,

404
00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:53.759
animal crossing or whatever, and find the find like the

405
00:21:53.799 --> 00:21:57.319
instead of animal crossing, like the shoot them Out adventure

406
00:21:57.359 --> 00:21:59.519
game where you go rescue the princess and at the

407
00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:00.799
end of the game and you want to like stand

408
00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:03.799
up and cheer and your heart is pounding. It's that

409
00:22:04.119 --> 00:22:08.200
physical experience doing something with your mind and or body

410
00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:12.359
that gets you feeling like you have escaped the tiger,

411
00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:16.640
like you have won and succeeded and crossed from danger

412
00:22:16.680 --> 00:22:17.240
to safety.

413
00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:17.839
Yeah.

414
00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:19.319
Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point.

415
00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:22.920
Another really important point that you introduce in the book.

416
00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:25.720
And I talk to my people that I work with

417
00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:27.000
and in the communities that I'm in.

418
00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:28.720
I talk about this concept all the time too.

419
00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:33.759
The idea of human giver syndrome tell us about human

420
00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:35.079
givers Amelia.

421
00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:38.759
Yeah, we adapt this idea from a book called Down Girl,

422
00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:41.920
The Larger Good Misogyny by a moral philosopher named Kate

423
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:46.039
Mann and being a moral philosopher, doctor Man positive world

424
00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:49.799
where there are two kinds of humans, human beings who

425
00:22:49.880 --> 00:22:53.880
have a moral obligation to be their humanity. Human beings

426
00:22:54.279 --> 00:22:58.519
have a moral obligation to express and live their humanity

427
00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:01.079
and to acquire whatever resources are necessary in order to

428
00:23:01.079 --> 00:23:04.480
accomplish that. On the other side, there are the human givers,

429
00:23:04.759 --> 00:23:09.240
who have a moral obligation to give their time, their lives,

430
00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:13.799
their bodies, their humanity to the human beings. And remembering

431
00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:15.799
this is from a book called Down Girl, The Logic

432
00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:18.440
of Misogyny, which one do you think she's saying? The

433
00:23:18.519 --> 00:23:23.119
women are, that's right, human givers. Yeah, and a lot

434
00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:25.880
of women are like, oh yeah, I'm a giver, like

435
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:29.319
for sure. And this is not to say that being

436
00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:32.079
a giver someone who feels a moral obligation to give

437
00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:34.839
your time, your life, your very body to the people

438
00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:38.279
around you is bad. That's kind of a natural human state.

439
00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:42.880
And indeed, if we lived in a system full of

440
00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:46.599
only human givers, no one would ever burn out because

441
00:23:46.599 --> 00:23:50.160
everyone around them would also feel a moral obligation to

442
00:23:50.319 --> 00:23:54.279
give to that person, so nobody'd ever fall through the cracks. However,

443
00:23:54.319 --> 00:23:56.839
we lived in this unbalanced system. And I also want

444
00:23:56.880 --> 00:23:59.279
to mention here that she does talk about it as

445
00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:02.640
a misogynist system. But this is not just a gender

446
00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:06.160
dynamic between beings and givers. It's a power dynamic. So

447
00:24:06.359 --> 00:24:11.000
any aspect of someone's heritage or character that gives them

448
00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:16.079
greater access to power in this world. So in America,

449
00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:19.920
it's being English speaking as a first language. It's being white,

450
00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:25.480
it's being thin, it's being Christian, it's being educated any

451
00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:28.559
it's being cis, it's being able bodied. Like anything that

452
00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:31.279
you have that makes you conform to the very narrow

453
00:24:31.319 --> 00:24:34.799
socially constructed ideal, it's a point of power that would

454
00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:39.240
inform you that you are entitled to everyone else's time

455
00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:41.039
and lives and bodies. That any way that you do

456
00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:45.920
not conform to that very narrow socially constructed ideal is

457
00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:48.079
a thing that informs you that you do not deserve.

458
00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:52.079
Until you conform, you do not deserve care or wellness.

459
00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:56.400
So human giver syndrome becomes a danger when you are

460
00:24:56.480 --> 00:25:00.759
a giver who feels the moral obligation to give in

461
00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:04.200
a system that feels entitled to take everything you have.

462
00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:08.519
And so it shows up, we say in the book,

463
00:25:09.039 --> 00:25:11.599
human giver syndrome shows up as the feeling that you

464
00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:18.519
have a moral obligation to be at all times pretty happy, calm, generous,

465
00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:21.240
and attentive to the needs of others, and that if

466
00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:23.839
you at any time fail in those moral obligations to

467
00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:26.839
be pretty happy, calm, generous, and attentive needs of others,

468
00:25:26.839 --> 00:25:29.119
that you should be punished. You are a failure. You

469
00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:31.960
should be punished, and that this is just normal and true.

470
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:33.359
This is just the way the world is. I mean,

471
00:25:34.039 --> 00:25:37.000
you know, women are just supposed to give, you know,

472
00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:40.039
that's just the way the world is. And it's normal

473
00:25:40.039 --> 00:25:42.000
and true, and this is how we just have to

474
00:25:42.079 --> 00:25:45.240
learn to deal with the world as it is. Nope, Nope, nope,

475
00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:49.400
that's human giver syndrome. That's a thing that can be healed.

476
00:25:49.640 --> 00:25:53.400
Yeah, And I share that concept with the women that

477
00:25:53.480 --> 00:25:58.480
I work with and everybody immediately immediately relates that clearly

478
00:25:58.519 --> 00:26:00.319
the human gives a woman. I understand that these other

479
00:26:00.680 --> 00:26:05.559
different power dynamics in race and culture or religion, but

480
00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:08.880
women versus men, definitely, all of the women can clearly

481
00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:13.599
relate to them being the human givers. And even when

482
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:16.319
you can, you say, oh no, I don't. I don't

483
00:26:16.359 --> 00:26:19.839
feel like morally obligated to be all of those things.

484
00:26:20.200 --> 00:26:22.480
Then you look at people's behavior, like then you look

485
00:26:22.519 --> 00:26:24.920
at how we sent up our lives and the things

486
00:26:24.920 --> 00:26:28.319
that we attend to mentally, the things that we're constantly

487
00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:35.000
thinking about, and one hundred percent we all subscribe to

488
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:37.599
that like whether and I feel like when I I

489
00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:40.160
revisited the book before talking to you, and I thought, yeah,

490
00:26:40.200 --> 00:26:44.240
like it's so ingrained that we're almost not even consciously

491
00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:48.720
aware of it, but it is the foundation of everything

492
00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:49.799
that we do every day.

493
00:26:50.200 --> 00:26:51.599
It's there, it's there.

494
00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:53.799
I think in the book we describe it as being

495
00:26:53.839 --> 00:26:56.240
like the cat pie and the carpet, right kind of

496
00:26:56.559 --> 00:26:59.519
you might like stop smelling it or forget where it

497
00:26:59.559 --> 00:27:04.480
came from, and it's just always there and terrible and like,

498
00:27:04.880 --> 00:27:06.359
but the process you have to go through in order

499
00:27:06.359 --> 00:27:08.279
to get rid of it is you know, you've got

500
00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:10.920
to excavate and scrub.

501
00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:16.039
Yeah, and it's confronting, like because it's it's also true

502
00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:21.559
that when you choose to stop subscribing to that idea,

503
00:27:21.799 --> 00:27:24.519
and we see it for the women in the world.

504
00:27:24.519 --> 00:27:26.519
I'm going to use women as an example. Majority of

505
00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:30.079
my audience as women, the women in the world who say, well,

506
00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:32.519
I'm not going to worry about caring anymore, and I'm not.

507
00:27:32.759 --> 00:27:35.400
It's I think it's becoming more and more acceptable these days.

508
00:27:35.400 --> 00:27:37.160
But the ones who say, well, I'm not going to

509
00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:40.079
do my hair and wear that thing and put on

510
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:42.240
makeup and I'm not going to care about how much

511
00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:44.440
I weigh or you know, it's just all of the

512
00:27:44.440 --> 00:27:46.599
things and I'm going to just speak my mind and

513
00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:49.799
not really couch it in niceties and politeness.

514
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:53.680
And we're attacked for it. Women are crucified for that.

515
00:27:54.440 --> 00:27:58.039
Yes, yes, and every other Yeah. This is the thing is,

516
00:27:58.079 --> 00:28:01.759
you can't just choose not to live in this system.

517
00:28:03.319 --> 00:28:06.839
It's not like human giver syndrome, is I mean, there

518
00:28:06.920 --> 00:28:11.359
is a degree of like subscription, the belief that this

519
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:13.680
is like normal and true in the way the world is.

520
00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:16.839
But if you exist in the world, you are going

521
00:28:16.839 --> 00:28:18.960
to be told that you must conform to this system,

522
00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:22.400
that you must be this kind of person. And yes,

523
00:28:22.920 --> 00:28:26.079
the degree to which this has changed varies around the world.

524
00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:28.880
It's still much worse in a lot of Africa, in

525
00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:31.240
the Middle East and even Asia than it is in

526
00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:34.519
the West. But in the West it still very much

527
00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:37.839
exists as the default. I mean, if you are, for example,

528
00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:42.680
a SIS, straight white woman in a heterosexual marriage, and

529
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:48.200
your SIS, straight white, thin educated husband also shares the

530
00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:50.640
household duties with you and is an equal partner and

531
00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:53.279
parent to you, and you live in a little bubble

532
00:28:53.400 --> 00:28:59.119
of like really lovely gender equality and mutual giving, that's amazing.

533
00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:04.319
But you know that exists against a background of assumption

534
00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:08.839
of the opposite. You know that this is non standard.

535
00:29:09.079 --> 00:29:11.279
This exists for you as a choice that you make

536
00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:14.079
every day, so you can create it for yourself. But

537
00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:18.400
because we're always aware that we are doing that choice

538
00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:21.960
to make things better and different, we still know that

539
00:29:22.039 --> 00:29:26.400
the gym Cleaver default exists in everyone's mind as the beastline.

540
00:29:26.599 --> 00:29:28.640
Yeah, and I would say that even if you're in

541
00:29:28.680 --> 00:29:31.240
that relationship and you've got all of that, you know,

542
00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:33.559
gender equality and I would like to think that my

543
00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:34.680
relationship is like that.

544
00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:36.200
But you know, when it.

545
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:38.480
Comes to we should get a cleaner, who do you?

546
00:29:38.519 --> 00:29:42.519
Reckon finds the cleaner? Who who hires the cleaner? When

547
00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:44.519
we have to get a house sitter in to look

548
00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:46.480
after the pets and type up the instructions for the

549
00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:47.599
pet sitter or find the.

550
00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:50.000
Babysitter or you know who's who do you? Reckon takes

551
00:29:50.440 --> 00:29:51.440
that responsibility.

552
00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:52.759
And my husband's going to listen to this and he's

553
00:29:52.759 --> 00:29:54.599
going to go, heyne, second, you'd only just have to

554
00:29:54.599 --> 00:29:56.319
ask me, and I'd do that, but you know what,

555
00:29:56.680 --> 00:30:00.000
by default ask by default exactly right?

556
00:30:00.200 --> 00:30:02.160
Yeah, why should I have to ask you? Like, doesn't

557
00:30:02.200 --> 00:30:03.880
it seem self evident that needs to be done?

558
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:04.119
Oh?

559
00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:07.880
Yeah, I have Like I have a sis, straight white

560
00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:11.759
educated husband. And when he's older than I am, so

561
00:30:11.799 --> 00:30:14.079
he retired and I was working full time and I

562
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:15.920
would get home from work and like there was dinner

563
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:17.640
made and like the house is clean. I was like,

564
00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:19.880
this is like having a wife. And he was so

565
00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:22.400
insulted that I had described him as a wife. And

566
00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:25.799
I was like, I am a wife. Why do you

567
00:30:25.880 --> 00:30:29.680
think that was an insult? And he kind of like

568
00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:33.000
was like, oh, a little bit of like misogyny left

569
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:35.599
over where I think about things that are feminine as

570
00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:37.680
being bad and I don't want to be like it was.

571
00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:40.000
It was one of those confronting moments for him. But

572
00:30:40.119 --> 00:30:43.680
like he is great, he is fantastic, But like even

573
00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:46.160
in the best relationships, you still understand that there is

574
00:30:46.200 --> 00:30:47.640
this underlying course.

575
00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:49.400
And that's what I mean. That's what I mean.

576
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:51.880
Even if you think it doesn't apply, it does.

577
00:30:52.039 --> 00:30:54.599
It's it's we've all got to say. It's always yeah,

578
00:30:54.599 --> 00:30:55.160
in all of us.

579
00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:57.960
We've all got white supremacy, we've all got all of

580
00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:00.440
the it's all just programmed to be because we live

581
00:31:00.440 --> 00:31:03.359
in a society that has told us this is true.

582
00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:07.119
Subconsciously from the day we were born. We've been programmed

583
00:31:07.160 --> 00:31:10.519
with ideas that are not our own ideas, and luckily

584
00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:15.119
we can replace them consciously, cognitively. But like, underneath the

585
00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:20.920
substrate is built. It's a foundation of white supremacists, heteronormative,

586
00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:22.880
exploitatively capitalist patriarchy.

587
00:31:23.480 --> 00:31:26.319
Thank you, Wow, that was a mouthful, but that is true.

588
00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:27.079
That's what it is.

589
00:31:27.079 --> 00:31:30.079
I made a song of white supremacist, is hab normative,

590
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:34.960
exploitatively capitalistic, patriarchy. I call it the Wushnell.

591
00:31:35.799 --> 00:31:53.680
Yeah, I love it.

592
00:31:53.839 --> 00:31:56.759
Back to burnout so human give us syndrome. This is

593
00:31:56.839 --> 00:32:00.759
kind of a big contributing factor right to why we

594
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:03.440
feel so emotionally exact, the underlying fund.

595
00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:05.480
To believe that we don't believe we don't deserve care,

596
00:32:06.119 --> 00:32:09.480
that we don't deserve time to go get physical activity,

597
00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:12.839
that that that cat collar is just normal, and that

598
00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:16.079
the stress response it initiates in us is we can't

599
00:32:16.079 --> 00:32:19.720
take a compliment. No, it's because your body sense is

600
00:32:19.799 --> 00:32:24.440
danger and that's valid. Yeah, it's the it's the underlying

601
00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:29.920
belief that we don't deserve safety and sleep and nutritious food, uh,

602
00:32:29.960 --> 00:32:34.319
and time for ourselves and to you know, not give

603
00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:38.599
up our health on the altar of other people's convenience.

604
00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:41.880
Yeah, and that's the that's the biggest challenge that I

605
00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:43.720
find with the women that I talk to to this

606
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:46.000
idea that and I know that you say in the

607
00:32:46.039 --> 00:32:48.160
book the answer is not self care. We'll get to that,

608
00:32:48.279 --> 00:32:51.920
but even the idea of just doing something taking care

609
00:32:52.119 --> 00:32:55.720
of my self and my needs is somehow selfish.

610
00:32:55.920 --> 00:32:58.039
And it's this guilt.

611
00:32:57.839 --> 00:32:59.960
That comes up in people like how could I do?

612
00:33:00.680 --> 00:33:05.519
How guilt for sleeping. Oh yeah, the reason that guilt

613
00:33:05.559 --> 00:33:07.720
is the reason why self care can never be the

614
00:33:07.720 --> 00:33:10.319
care for burnout. What we really need is to be

615
00:33:10.359 --> 00:33:12.759
surrounded by we call them the book, the bubble of love,

616
00:33:13.240 --> 00:33:15.519
just other people in our lives who care about our

617
00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:19.319
well being as much as we care about theirs, so

618
00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:22.759
that they are the givers to us. They turn toward

619
00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:26.519
us when we are having difficult feelings, and they remind

620
00:33:26.599 --> 00:33:29.960
us that we deserve care and protection and safety, that

621
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:34.079
we deserve to know how loved we are, no matter

622
00:33:34.160 --> 00:33:37.400
how little we conformed the socially constructed ideal, and that

623
00:33:37.400 --> 00:33:40.960
we don't have to wait to conform before we deserve

624
00:33:41.119 --> 00:33:42.240
that care and that love.

625
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:44.640
And the point that you make, which is so valid,

626
00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:47.319
And this is interesting for me too, because I one

627
00:33:47.319 --> 00:33:48.960
of the big things that I've been talking about a

628
00:33:49.039 --> 00:33:51.880
lot in the last few years is imposter syndrome and

629
00:33:52.039 --> 00:33:54.240
the feeling of not being good enough, and and the

630
00:33:54.319 --> 00:33:57.839
fact that this is not necessarily an individual problem, Like

631
00:33:57.920 --> 00:33:59.960
we have to talk about the fact that the world

632
00:34:00.279 --> 00:34:03.799
is set up to make you feel like you're a

633
00:34:03.880 --> 00:34:05.960
worst lesson, that you don't belong and you'd make this

634
00:34:06.079 --> 00:34:08.559
exactly the same point for burnout, which is probably the

635
00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:11.320
first time I've ever come across anything on burnout at

636
00:34:11.360 --> 00:34:14.079
the time that your book came out, which actually directly

637
00:34:14.119 --> 00:34:17.119
addressed the fact that this is not your fault. If

638
00:34:17.119 --> 00:34:21.400
you're emotionally exhausted and depleted and cynical and feeling like

639
00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:23.599
you nothing that you ever do is good enough, no

640
00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:26.800
matter how hard you work and how long you work

641
00:34:26.840 --> 00:34:28.559
and all of the rest of it, that nothing will

642
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:31.800
ever be good enough. That this is not an individual

643
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:34.800
problem to be solved. The game is rigged, is what

644
00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:35.280
you say.

645
00:34:36.119 --> 00:34:41.079
Exactly. Yeah, there's there's rat research. Psychologists often do kind

646
00:34:41.119 --> 00:34:42.639
of research on rats.

647
00:34:42.880 --> 00:34:43.639
So in this.

648
00:34:43.639 --> 00:34:45.719
Situation, but the rats are not put in any kind

649
00:34:45.719 --> 00:34:48.679
of danger or any kind of you know, pain. They

650
00:34:48.760 --> 00:34:50.679
just make them uncomfortable. They just stress them out a

651
00:34:50.719 --> 00:34:54.320
little bit by like tilting their cage or you know,

652
00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:57.800
wetting their bedding, and it's just real annoying. And those

653
00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:03.519
just low level, non life threatening chronic stressors have a

654
00:35:03.639 --> 00:35:08.119
huge impact on the capacity of that rat to perform

655
00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:10.719
well in other kind of tests later that chronic low

656
00:35:10.840 --> 00:35:15.039
level stress. And we also live in a system that

657
00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:18.199
not only is constantly tilting our cage and wetting our

658
00:35:18.599 --> 00:35:22.159
bedding down metaphorically, but it's also telling us that it's

659
00:35:22.199 --> 00:35:25.320
not doing that right. So you turn on the news

660
00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:30.400
and it's saying, you know, oh, we don't need feminism anymore. Like,

661
00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:34.039
let's ban these books that talk about I mean, this

662
00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:35.960
is happening in the US. I don't know how widespread

663
00:35:35.960 --> 00:35:38.960
this is around the world, but you know, let's let's

664
00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:42.519
stop people from being informed about the truth about you know,

665
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:45.440
diversity and how awesome it is that the world is

666
00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:48.360
full of different kinds of people and that no, they

667
00:35:48.360 --> 00:35:51.039
are not dangerous to us just because they're different from us.

668
00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:54.440
That we don't we don't need to worry about this,

669
00:35:54.480 --> 00:35:56.000
We don't need to think about it. We don't need

670
00:35:56.039 --> 00:35:58.400
to These aren't problems anymore. We live in a in

671
00:35:58.480 --> 00:36:04.039
a post race society. We see COVID means that we

672
00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:07.360
all learned that we can all work from home now,

673
00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:10.239
So it's fine. Like worker exploitation isn't happening.

674
00:36:10.559 --> 00:36:11.360
What are you talking about?

675
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:16.559
Union busting? Unions? Are unions are corrupt? Don't you know?

676
00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:21.519
Unions aren't there to protect workers. Companies will protect workers.

677
00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:26.519
Corporations with the primary objective of posting shareholder profits will

678
00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:31.440
definitely prioritize worker wellness and safety for sure, without any

679
00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:36.280
government intervention or or or collective bargaining action. That's, oh,

680
00:36:36.440 --> 00:36:38.480
we don't need that at all. Yeah, we're being gas

681
00:36:38.519 --> 00:36:40.960
lit all the time. So we're not only fighting the

682
00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:45.159
actual oppression itself, we're also fighting the lie that's telling

683
00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:49.360
us that it's not happening. Yeah, right, it's it's intense

684
00:36:49.400 --> 00:36:52.079
and complicated. And I don't mean to say like, oh, oppression,

685
00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:54.039
Like I mean, there are places in the world where

686
00:36:54.039 --> 00:36:57.480
women can't drive, where women can't get an education, where

687
00:36:57.519 --> 00:37:02.079
women can't safely leave their houses. In the West, it is.

688
00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:05.480
It's still a matter of bodily autonomy and physical safety

689
00:37:06.199 --> 00:37:09.679
for it is. Yeah, for women and for anybody who's

690
00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:11.800
not a CIS man basically.

691
00:37:11.559 --> 00:37:12.320
Yeah, exactly.

692
00:37:12.519 --> 00:37:15.079
And even isn't it interesting that you even said that, Like,

693
00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:17.159
you know, there are some countries where we can't even drive,

694
00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:20.039
so it's not that bad, but you know, like we

695
00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:23.280
still feel that that's good either. It's not that good either.

696
00:37:23.320 --> 00:37:25.679
It's not that good either. In Australia where I come from.

697
00:37:26.280 --> 00:37:27.679
I don't know what the stats are this year, but

698
00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:29.920
certainly in recent years it's been one woman every week

699
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:34.039
is killed by a male partner or former partner. I

700
00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:36.079
don't know what the stats are where you are from,

701
00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:37.679
but it's pretty it's pretty horrific.

702
00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:42.000
And yeah, it's not just relationship violence, but and also

703
00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:46.480
all of this, of course, is exponentially worse for women

704
00:37:46.519 --> 00:37:51.320
who are not CIS, women who are not neurotypical, women

705
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:55.480
who are not white. In the United States, in particularly

706
00:37:55.559 --> 00:37:59.760
the missing and murdered Indigenous women do not get looked for,

707
00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:05.000
not get investigated. It's the rights of danger for women.

708
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:07.079
And again, the less you can form to the socially

709
00:38:07.079 --> 00:38:11.039
constructed ideal, the more mainstream it is for someone to

710
00:38:11.199 --> 00:38:14.159
explicitly believe that your body doesn't matter and that you

711
00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:19.320
don't deserve safety or protection. It's why those the anti

712
00:38:19.320 --> 00:38:22.039
trans laws are happening the way they're happening, because, well,

713
00:38:22.039 --> 00:38:25.360
that person doesn't conform to a socially constructed ideal and

714
00:38:25.559 --> 00:38:27.840
therefore is not a real person and does not deserve protection.

715
00:38:27.880 --> 00:38:30.320
And they couch it in terms of like protecting an

716
00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:35.559
otherwise oppressed community. But that's just a lie. It's a

717
00:38:35.559 --> 00:38:38.880
physic it's an actual lie, it's a literal lie. And

718
00:38:39.039 --> 00:38:41.320
just for anyone who's listening, who's still like, is not

719
00:38:41.320 --> 00:38:44.559
sure about the trans thing? No, gender is not binary.

720
00:38:44.880 --> 00:38:47.920
Biological sex is not binary. It's not X and Y.

721
00:38:48.280 --> 00:38:51.360
It's so much more complicated than that. And if you

722
00:38:51.400 --> 00:38:53.079
don't know that, if all you had was high school

723
00:38:53.079 --> 00:38:55.639
biology and you're like, there's only two s, Nope, it's

724
00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:58.679
just more complicated than that. And also, culturally, gender is

725
00:38:58.760 --> 00:39:00.960
also not binary around the WAD world. It is a

726
00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:04.239
white supremacist ideal that holds gender as binary. So many

727
00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:08.639
indigenous cultures around the world hold gender as a spectrum

728
00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:12.800
that it is a white supremacist ideal to insist otherwise. So, like,

729
00:39:12.840 --> 00:39:15.079
if anybody's listening, it wasn't sure about that. I know,

730
00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:18.440
I keep talking about the cis heteronormative, exploitatively capitalist patriarchy,

731
00:39:18.679 --> 00:39:22.360
but in particular that's you know, the cis heteronormativeness is

732
00:39:23.079 --> 00:39:26.000
it's taken headlines lightly and I and I just wanted

733
00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:27.719
to make sure that I put in that, like just

734
00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:28.880
in case anybody wasn't sure.

735
00:39:29.079 --> 00:39:30.960
Yeah, yeah, no, got it.

736
00:39:31.079 --> 00:39:34.519
Biological sex not binary. Gender not binary.

737
00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:39.519
And so you started writing this book about burnout, and

738
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:41.920
you talked about the stress cycle and then what as

739
00:39:41.960 --> 00:39:44.960
you and then it becomes like the stress cycle becomes

740
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:47.800
like literally like the part of the first chapter, I think,

741
00:39:48.079 --> 00:39:51.519
and then the rest of these whole book is actually

742
00:39:51.559 --> 00:39:55.719
about so much more than managing the stress cycle.

743
00:39:56.159 --> 00:39:57.519
It's about all of.

744
00:39:57.440 --> 00:40:01.559
These issues of human givers, syndrome and the patriarchy and

745
00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:05.599
the need for us to actually well, what you talk

746
00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:08.239
about is creating meaning. As one of the solutions to

747
00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:12.840
preventing an overcoming burnout is to connect with something larger.

748
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:15.480
I think that would be really useful to talk about that.

749
00:40:16.079 --> 00:40:19.559
Yeah, the first three chapters of the book are about

750
00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:24.840
tools that every human carries within them to help feel

751
00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:28.039
their absolute best. And one thing that's built inside every

752
00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:30.599
single person in the world is a stress response cycle.

753
00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:33.920
Everybody's got that. But we've also every single person has

754
00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:36.719
access to a sense of meaning, and we define meaning

755
00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:40.639
as the feeling of being connected to something larger than yourself,

756
00:40:40.639 --> 00:40:45.119
of being part of something greater. In the actual psych

757
00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:49.639
research about meaning, that research is a mess. Their definitions

758
00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:53.880
are sloppy, like it's just the research is rough. But

759
00:40:54.119 --> 00:40:56.199
what we kind of condensed down from what all of

760
00:40:56.239 --> 00:40:58.679
the research seems to share in common is that the

761
00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:02.719
way you create that sense of meaning which is like

762
00:41:02.760 --> 00:41:05.440
your like your structure response cycle, a thing that's built

763
00:41:05.480 --> 00:41:08.239
inside of you in order to make you feel like

764
00:41:08.320 --> 00:41:10.599
the best kind of human you can feel like is

765
00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:13.840
doing something that feels like you're leaving a legacy or

766
00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:18.559
heeding the cult service uh, or even just being part

767
00:41:18.599 --> 00:41:21.960
of a loving, connected community. I actually I actually wrote

768
00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:24.800
a song because we were talking about meaning is being

769
00:41:24.880 --> 00:41:27.679
vitamin why. It's like vitamin D, where like your body

770
00:41:27.719 --> 00:41:33.599
makes it meaning vitamin why get it out? Why? If

771
00:41:33.599 --> 00:41:35.599
that's where you get meaning from is your body makes it?

772
00:41:36.639 --> 00:41:39.679
And in my tune, like I always remember leaving a

773
00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:43.840
legacy behind, or heating the call to serve men kind

774
00:41:43.960 --> 00:41:46.239
or loving someone that's enough.

775
00:41:47.079 --> 00:41:48.119
I love it.

776
00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:51.280
Yeah, that's how I remember the three things that the

777
00:41:51.320 --> 00:41:53.239
research says is like send it to a song.

778
00:41:53.360 --> 00:41:55.679
This is what you get when you combine a musician

779
00:41:55.920 --> 00:41:59.599
with some burnout research. You get you get a song version,

780
00:41:59.639 --> 00:42:02.559
you get funny songs about wellness interventions.

781
00:42:02.559 --> 00:42:05.280
It's a love that's right. Great way to remember it though,

782
00:42:05.360 --> 00:42:06.639
that is very I like that.

783
00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:07.639
Do you want me to sing it?

784
00:42:07.679 --> 00:42:09.559
I'll sing the whole thing. Yeah, it's very short.

785
00:42:09.760 --> 00:42:13.079
Okay, can you right here?

786
00:42:17.199 --> 00:42:19.639
Okay, okay, so the premise is that it's vitamin y

787
00:42:19.800 --> 00:42:22.639
and you get it. It's like a nutrient, so like

788
00:42:22.840 --> 00:42:25.519
meaning is a leafy green, and then it's like cabbage.

789
00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:27.840
But cabbage is not technically a leafy green. So this

790
00:42:27.880 --> 00:42:31.079
is not the most accurate song. But whatever, See a

791
00:42:31.519 --> 00:42:37.400
baby a g meaning is a leafy.

792
00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:43.639
Green, Grow it yourself by the sun, play your connector

793
00:42:43.840 --> 00:42:49.719
sing with me, leaving a leg cbehind. We're heeding the

794
00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:57.320
call to serve mankind. We're loving someone. That's enough, laughing someone.

795
00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:09.159
See a bb ag really meaning is a leafy Get

796
00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:11.719
it because cee a bb ag and eo notes in

797
00:43:11.760 --> 00:43:12.280
the scale.

798
00:43:13.000 --> 00:43:14.440
Oh god, little music I.

799
00:43:14.519 --> 00:43:16.880
Found there as well. I love it.

800
00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:20.960
I h I appreciate that. Have you played that on

801
00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:23.119
another podcast or is that an exclusive?

802
00:43:23.320 --> 00:43:24.159
I'm pretty happy with.

803
00:43:24.239 --> 00:43:26.679
I don't think I've performed that song in another podcast.

804
00:43:27.239 --> 00:43:30.239
I think I think I might because it's gonna it

805
00:43:30.280 --> 00:43:33.039
takes a lot of explanation and context to get that song,

806
00:43:33.079 --> 00:43:35.480
which is why it's not like I've got other songs

807
00:43:35.480 --> 00:43:39.079
that stand alone really well. The cabbage song does not standalone.

808
00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:39.480
Well.

809
00:43:39.639 --> 00:43:41.480
I am a new fan of the cabbage song.

810
00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:43.840
Thank you for that.

811
00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:50.360
So okay, getting back to meaning meaning meaning? So what

812
00:43:50.400 --> 00:43:52.559
do you say to the people who are going to

813
00:43:52.599 --> 00:43:55.079
say this is what I contend with when I talk

814
00:43:55.119 --> 00:43:58.079
to women all the time. Well, I get my sense

815
00:43:58.079 --> 00:44:02.079
of meaning from and you did mention service. And so

816
00:44:02.159 --> 00:44:06.840
how do I separate my human giver syndrome from the

817
00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:09.800
fact that I actually genuinely like.

818
00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:11.639
To do for others.

819
00:44:11.719 --> 00:44:15.159
I'm a helper, I'm a supporter, I'm a giver.

820
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:20.800
Uh yeah. The difference is are you giving and supporting

821
00:44:21.159 --> 00:44:23.039
because it makes you feel like you're something larger or

822
00:44:23.079 --> 00:44:26.159
because you feel in more obligation to give until you

823
00:44:26.599 --> 00:44:29.760
are sucked completely dry and have nothing left to offer.

824
00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:33.679
The difference is the feeling that it gives you when

825
00:44:33.719 --> 00:44:37.960
you do it. The difference is the reaction of people

826
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:42.039
who receive your care and your gifts. Do they feel

827
00:44:42.159 --> 00:44:44.760
entitled and be like, yep, that's exactly how it should be.

828
00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:47.760
Now please give me more? Or is it thank you?

829
00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:49.599
This is a wonderful gift, and now here is my

830
00:44:49.679 --> 00:44:50.719
gift and return to you.

831
00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:52.119
Yep.

832
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:54.480
And I think that there are questions that you know,

833
00:44:54.599 --> 00:44:57.519
really you talked about before about having to be really

834
00:44:57.559 --> 00:44:59.320
still in sit with your feelings, And I think some

835
00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:02.920
of these questions require people to to just really kind

836
00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:06.360
of get really honest with themselves about what drives You know,

837
00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:10.119
we talked about it being so ingrained, so unconscious, all

838
00:45:10.159 --> 00:45:14.119
of that human giver stuff and the infiltration of those

839
00:45:14.440 --> 00:45:17.679
patriarchal kind of ideas, and so I think it takes

840
00:45:17.719 --> 00:45:20.559
a bit of kind of self reflection and unpacking to

841
00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:22.760
get to the core of what drives some of those behaviors.

842
00:45:22.760 --> 00:45:26.360
But you're right looking at how what is the response back?

843
00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:29.320
And are you giving until you're basically bled dry?

844
00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:31.480
That's that's a useful yeah.

845
00:45:31.199 --> 00:45:35.199
Benjamin, is anybody in that community giving back to you?

846
00:45:35.239 --> 00:45:38.400
Do you feel loved and cared for also? Or do

847
00:45:38.440 --> 00:45:41.039
you feel like you don't deserve loving care like, oh,

848
00:45:41.079 --> 00:45:43.599
of course they don't have to give anything back. No, no, no, no, no,

849
00:45:43.719 --> 00:45:46.360
this is a one. This is I just get you

850
00:45:46.400 --> 00:45:48.800
need you need to be surrounded with people who who

851
00:45:48.840 --> 00:45:50.920
care about your well being as much as you care

852
00:45:50.920 --> 00:45:51.880
about theirs.

853
00:45:51.559 --> 00:45:54.159
And now you are just as willing to receive, because

854
00:45:54.159 --> 00:45:56.159
that's the That's the other kicker, isn't it? Like so

855
00:45:56.159 --> 00:45:58.599
many people give, give, give, give, but not very good

856
00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:02.559
at the receiving for whatever reason. That is unconscious perhaps

857
00:46:03.519 --> 00:46:06.559
beliefs that they're ye deserving, not worthy. Yeah, that's not

858
00:46:06.679 --> 00:46:07.360
my role here.

859
00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:11.519
Yeah no, And sometimes it's not even unconscious. Sometimes well,

860
00:46:11.559 --> 00:46:14.239
sometimes we believe it explicitly, but many times we are

861
00:46:14.360 --> 00:46:19.480
explicitly told, I mean through the stories that we accept

862
00:46:19.519 --> 00:46:23.039
as normal and natural in our lives about who among

863
00:46:23.119 --> 00:46:26.480
our parents was the one who cared for us? And

864
00:46:26.519 --> 00:46:29.079
how did that dynamic look Among our neighbors and the

865
00:46:29.079 --> 00:46:31.519
people that we know, how are their family dynamics working.

866
00:46:31.559 --> 00:46:35.000
Who is the giver there? Does anyone there turn toward

867
00:46:35.239 --> 00:46:38.360
a caregiver and offer care and return and let them

868
00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:41.199
know that they deserve and are worthy of that care,

869
00:46:41.719 --> 00:46:43.880
or or do we live in a world where it's

870
00:46:43.880 --> 00:46:47.960
perfectly natural for someone to say I got nine hours

871
00:46:47.960 --> 00:46:50.360
of sleep last night and I feel amazing, and then

872
00:46:50.400 --> 00:46:53.840
someone replies, oh, well, good for you. Self care is

873
00:46:53.960 --> 00:46:57.039
so important. I mean, I was up till three making

874
00:46:57.039 --> 00:46:59.599
cupcakes for Becky's birthday party, but you got nine hours

875
00:46:59.599 --> 00:47:03.320
of sleep. I mean, good for you. Self care is

876
00:47:03.400 --> 00:47:07.360
so important, And that kind of like sarcastic rejection now

877
00:47:07.400 --> 00:47:09.880
turns your nine hours of sleep from something that maybe

878
00:47:09.960 --> 00:47:13.920
helped relieve and complete some old structure response cycles into

879
00:47:14.239 --> 00:47:16.960
something that is now like making you worry? Am I

880
00:47:16.960 --> 00:47:19.000
doing it wrong? Am I selfish? Do I not deserve this?

881
00:47:20.440 --> 00:47:23.800
And instead, if that conversation could go, I got nine

882
00:47:23.800 --> 00:47:26.079
hours of sleep and I feel amazing. I was up

883
00:47:26.119 --> 00:47:29.559
till three bacon cupcakes for Becky's birthday party. What was

884
00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:32.119
I thinking? I wish I had nine hours of sleeping

885
00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:34.519
the other versus, Yes, you deserve nine hours of sleep,

886
00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:36.800
And I hope tonight when you get home, Becky stands

887
00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:39.320
guard in front of your bedroom door so nobody disturbs you,

888
00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:42.320
so you can get fully all the sleep that you need,

889
00:47:42.360 --> 00:47:45.239
because it is your family's job to turn toward you

890
00:47:45.280 --> 00:47:46.960
and let you know that you deserve that love and

891
00:47:46.960 --> 00:47:49.880
care and resources for yourself.

892
00:47:50.199 --> 00:47:50.679
Yeah.

893
00:47:51.079 --> 00:47:56.559
Yeah, Becky's seventeen, now, come on, yeah, I can relate

894
00:47:56.599 --> 00:47:56.800
to that.

895
00:47:59.440 --> 00:47:59.880
Obviously.

896
00:47:59.880 --> 00:48:03.239
The book came out in was first published in twenty nineteen.

897
00:48:03.280 --> 00:48:05.440
I believe you're the author, you know, twenty nineteen.

898
00:48:05.880 --> 00:48:06.679
Yeah, And it's.

899
00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:10.000
Full of really great exercises and tools and you know,

900
00:48:10.039 --> 00:48:12.239
lots of this more detail about the things that we've

901
00:48:12.280 --> 00:48:15.679
talked about, but some really really helpful little exercises and

902
00:48:15.719 --> 00:48:18.800
tools and opportunities to write things down and reflect on

903
00:48:18.880 --> 00:48:23.599
things so important. But now there is an entire workbook

904
00:48:24.039 --> 00:48:25.960
about can we talk about.

905
00:48:25.800 --> 00:48:28.280
Because it turns out, yes, we learned that.

906
00:48:28.360 --> 00:48:28.599
Okay.

907
00:48:28.599 --> 00:48:31.880
The book is eighty thousand words and has twenty pages

908
00:48:32.239 --> 00:48:37.960
of references of like scientific citations, And it turns out

909
00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:40.679
not everybody learns best that way. Some people are like,

910
00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:43.480
I don't need to know. I don't need all the receipts.

911
00:48:43.639 --> 00:48:46.360
I just want the results. Just tell me what to do.

912
00:48:47.079 --> 00:48:50.199
We were like, that's that's valid. So yeah, we turned

913
00:48:50.239 --> 00:48:52.800
it into a workbook with just like if you want

914
00:48:52.800 --> 00:48:54.880
to know the hows and whys and the details, then

915
00:48:54.880 --> 00:48:56.239
the book is for you. But if you're just like

916
00:48:56.280 --> 00:48:58.679
I just want to feel better, like right now we

917
00:48:58.719 --> 00:48:59.519
have the workbook.

918
00:49:00.119 --> 00:49:03.800
Yeah, well I am one hundred percent getting a hold

919
00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:06.159
of the work book. I love a workbook. And so

920
00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:09.880
is it the same exercises that are in this book

921
00:49:09.960 --> 00:49:12.440
or is it more exercises around all of.

922
00:49:12.400 --> 00:49:15.320
These Yeah, it's some of the same, like the twenty

923
00:49:15.320 --> 00:49:18.440
four hours, the twenty four seven worksheet, which is people

924
00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:20.920
are in the In the rest chapter, it turns out

925
00:49:20.920 --> 00:49:23.639
you need to have like a certain ratio of rest

926
00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:26.000
to effort in your in your life, it's like forty

927
00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:28.559
two percent of your time needs to be spent doing

928
00:49:28.599 --> 00:49:32.400
things that refuel you. So where do you find that time?

929
00:49:32.400 --> 00:49:34.199
So there's a sheet of like twenty four to seven

930
00:49:34.880 --> 00:49:36.840
seven days a week, what do you actually do with

931
00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:40.599
your time? And then what in your ideal world would

932
00:49:40.599 --> 00:49:42.400
you be doing? And then looking at the differences and

933
00:49:42.400 --> 00:49:44.599
you just need to like physically fill it out and see.

934
00:49:44.840 --> 00:49:48.199
And when I did this for myself, I mean it's

935
00:49:48.239 --> 00:49:51.800
so eye opening of like, oh no, wonder, I feel terrible.

936
00:49:52.639 --> 00:49:57.159
This is my schedule. I need to change something. So

937
00:49:57.280 --> 00:50:00.440
that's the same in both books, Like there's a the book,

938
00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:04.639
there's a smash in some patriarchy worksheets, but there's a

939
00:50:04.679 --> 00:50:07.360
lot more like step by step. And also we answer

940
00:50:07.400 --> 00:50:10.519
questions that people have asked us since the book came out,

941
00:50:11.079 --> 00:50:14.440
like specifically, what does it mean when someone says listen

942
00:50:14.480 --> 00:50:18.840
to your body? How do I do that? Since the

943
00:50:18.840 --> 00:50:20.719
book came out, both Emily and I have been diagnosed

944
00:50:20.719 --> 00:50:24.960
with autism level one they used to call it Aspergers

945
00:50:26.159 --> 00:50:30.159
and I along with that, have alexithymia, which is that

946
00:50:30.159 --> 00:50:33.559
condition where you just have a clinical deficit in your

947
00:50:33.559 --> 00:50:37.679
capacity to recognize your own internal experience. Yeah, so I

948
00:50:37.719 --> 00:50:39.960
was like, oh, so the reason that I never I

949
00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:42.639
can't listen to my body like this is just this

950
00:50:42.679 --> 00:50:45.480
is a thing that goes along with my sensory processing differences.

951
00:50:45.760 --> 00:50:49.760
It's just my own internal sensory processing is not awesome.

952
00:50:50.039 --> 00:50:52.480
But again, it's a learnable skill. So I go through

953
00:50:52.920 --> 00:50:55.880
I created a step by step process of like this

954
00:50:55.960 --> 00:50:59.159
is how I have learned to listen to my body.

955
00:50:59.199 --> 00:51:01.320
Here's what that means. Because we always get one or

956
00:51:01.360 --> 00:51:04.400
two questions from an audience that's like, how do I

957
00:51:04.440 --> 00:51:06.000
listen to my body? And I'm like, oh, yeah, I

958
00:51:06.039 --> 00:51:08.679
got you. I got you. It doesn't happen instantly, but

959
00:51:08.679 --> 00:51:10.920
it's a thing you can learn to do. We also

960
00:51:10.960 --> 00:51:12.639
got a lot of questions about sleep, of course, and

961
00:51:12.679 --> 00:51:14.559
whenever we talked audiences, so there's a lot of just

962
00:51:14.599 --> 00:51:18.159
like really practical, here's the things you can do about

963
00:51:18.159 --> 00:51:21.360
your sleep. But also then keeping in like making sure

964
00:51:21.400 --> 00:51:23.760
that we keep in context the fact that like you

965
00:51:23.800 --> 00:51:26.079
can do all this great stuff for your sleep that's

966
00:51:26.119 --> 00:51:30.000
really practical, like keep your bedroom dark and quiet and cool.

967
00:51:30.079 --> 00:51:32.960
That's the vast majority of the population is gonna do

968
00:51:33.039 --> 00:51:35.960
well with that. But of course everyone's different, Like if

969
00:51:36.000 --> 00:51:38.159
you need white noise or you like to listen to

970
00:51:38.199 --> 00:51:41.280
an audiobook to fall asleep, because that's me because like

971
00:51:41.360 --> 00:51:43.159
not just toddlers like to be read to sleep, like

972
00:51:43.239 --> 00:51:47.760
some of adults do too. Like there's that practical stuff,

973
00:51:47.800 --> 00:51:49.719
but then always making sure it's connected to the bigger

974
00:51:49.719 --> 00:51:53.119
picture and remembering like why are you not already doing this,

975
00:51:53.199 --> 00:51:56.119
Like what are the messages that you receive? What how

976
00:51:56.159 --> 00:51:58.360
do you feel when you think about getting a full

977
00:51:58.440 --> 00:52:01.400
night sleep? Do you feel guilty? Like, let's unpack some

978
00:52:01.440 --> 00:52:04.400
of that, and it's really really step by step practical

979
00:52:04.960 --> 00:52:05.960
love it.

980
00:52:06.079 --> 00:52:08.320
Yeah, you just raised a really good point. You know

981
00:52:09.159 --> 00:52:11.079
so many women that I know, and I'm sure it's

982
00:52:11.079 --> 00:52:13.039
the same over there as it is in other parts

983
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:16.800
of the world where in adult women are being diagnosed

984
00:52:16.840 --> 00:52:22.239
getting late diagnosis of autism spectrum disorders and ADHD. Right,

985
00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:27.280
so neurodivergence, and it's exploding because nobody ever knew how

986
00:52:27.280 --> 00:52:30.039
to diagnose women before, like girls and women present so

987
00:52:30.119 --> 00:52:32.199
differently and so oh but now we know, and so

988
00:52:32.320 --> 00:52:33.199
now suddenly.

989
00:52:32.960 --> 00:52:37.079
Everybody is not everybody, of course, it's like one of us.

990
00:52:37.199 --> 00:52:39.280
It's like it's not a not a big deal, but.

991
00:52:39.880 --> 00:52:41.159
It's a full percent of us.

992
00:52:41.239 --> 00:52:44.039
It seems like a lot. But and then so it

993
00:52:44.079 --> 00:52:45.960
seems like so many people that people go, oh, everybody's

994
00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:48.480
just jumping on the bandwagon. Everybody just wants to get

995
00:52:48.840 --> 00:52:54.960
right useful. But it is interesting in relation to this

996
00:52:55.079 --> 00:52:57.639
idea of burnout right and this let this idea of

997
00:52:57.719 --> 00:53:02.760
trying to meet expectations that the impossible expectations that would

998
00:53:02.800 --> 00:53:05.119
try to meet. And if you put that in the

999
00:53:05.119 --> 00:53:09.800
context of like having like a neurodivergence, like that extra

1000
00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:11.400
complicating factor.

1001
00:53:11.960 --> 00:53:15.880
Oh yes, oh yes, because he didn't know that way

1002
00:53:15.920 --> 00:53:18.840
it were extra complicating yep, right, no, Or when I

1003
00:53:18.880 --> 00:53:21.320
was in my doctorate trying to like brine like I'm

1004
00:53:21.360 --> 00:53:24.639
good at school. I have always been an a student.

1005
00:53:24.639 --> 00:53:27.280
If I put my mind to anything academic, no problem

1006
00:53:27.320 --> 00:53:29.519
at all. And in fact, the schoolwork of my doctor

1007
00:53:29.559 --> 00:53:31.800
program was the part I loved best. I loved doing

1008
00:53:31.840 --> 00:53:34.519
the research and like I mean, I took this one

1009
00:53:34.559 --> 00:53:36.960
class that was about the history of notation, where we

1010
00:53:37.000 --> 00:53:39.719
look at eight hundred year old music manuscripts and try

1011
00:53:39.800 --> 00:53:43.440
to like transcribe the notation into modern notation. And it

1012
00:53:43.519 --> 00:53:48.480
was like language and math and ciphering all combined and

1013
00:53:48.880 --> 00:53:53.000
it was the best. But the challenge of that class

1014
00:53:53.239 --> 00:53:56.639
was was telling my professor I don't have time to

1015
00:53:56.679 --> 00:53:58.679
do the whole thing, and I get like three quarters done,

1016
00:53:58.719 --> 00:54:00.639
You like, where's the rest? I'm like, I ran out

1017
00:54:00.639 --> 00:54:03.920
of time because I am also a stepmother to three

1018
00:54:03.960 --> 00:54:07.199
teenagers and working three part time jobs and commuting sixty

1019
00:54:07.199 --> 00:54:09.639
five miles each way to get to this campus. And

1020
00:54:09.679 --> 00:54:12.679
this is not my only class. Like, no, I didn't finish.

1021
00:54:12.800 --> 00:54:14.480
I mean, I love doing the work, but like, I

1022
00:54:14.480 --> 00:54:16.360
don't mean to insult you here, but are you aware

1023
00:54:16.400 --> 00:54:18.840
that I'm a human being? Like he definitely did not

1024
00:54:18.880 --> 00:54:22.039
see me as a human being. But anyway, this is

1025
00:54:22.039 --> 00:54:24.079
why I try to keep it so intersectional and to

1026
00:54:24.159 --> 00:54:28.760
keep talking about race first language, whether you're sis or trans,

1027
00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:33.079
whether you're straight or elsewhere on the LGBTQIAA plus spectrum,

1028
00:54:33.480 --> 00:54:37.079
because it is not just gender that makes the difference.

1029
00:54:37.159 --> 00:54:40.239
It is everything about you that does not conform to

1030
00:54:40.280 --> 00:54:43.119
the socially constructed ideal. So if you are not the

1031
00:54:43.199 --> 00:54:47.320
socially constructed ideal body shape or size or color, or

1032
00:54:47.360 --> 00:54:51.480
the hair on your body is located in a quantity,

1033
00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:53.960
or is a texture or a color that is unacceptable,

1034
00:54:54.119 --> 00:54:58.159
like it's it's everything. So it's really important to me. Yeah, No,

1035
00:54:58.519 --> 00:55:00.320
And it was really important to me before or I

1036
00:55:00.400 --> 00:55:03.039
was diagnosed, and also now I'm physically disabled because I

1037
00:55:03.079 --> 00:55:08.039
have long COVID, so it has always been really important.

1038
00:55:08.039 --> 00:55:10.039
But now that I know a little bit more about

1039
00:55:10.079 --> 00:55:15.480
why I feel so like I don't conform to people's

1040
00:55:15.480 --> 00:55:18.840
expectations and why, first of all, why I'm good at

1041
00:55:18.840 --> 00:55:21.639
explaining with the socially constructed idealists because I'm so far

1042
00:55:21.679 --> 00:55:24.360
outside of it that I can see it a little

1043
00:55:24.400 --> 00:55:27.639
more clearly than people who are closer. Yeah, So I

1044
00:55:27.639 --> 00:55:29.360
think that's one of the things I've learned through just

1045
00:55:29.400 --> 00:55:30.400
having the diagnosis.

1046
00:55:30.840 --> 00:55:34.800
Yeah, and it's so important and I think that well,

1047
00:55:34.840 --> 00:55:37.920
hopefully this has been an enlightening conversation for other people

1048
00:55:37.960 --> 00:55:41.280
listening too, because I think you're right. We see things

1049
00:55:41.280 --> 00:55:45.599
from our own perspective, you know, and there are many, many, many,

1050
00:55:45.639 --> 00:55:49.239
many many other perspectives. And I think in the last

1051
00:55:49.280 --> 00:55:53.760
few years we've been more confronted with the range of

1052
00:55:53.800 --> 00:55:57.519
different diversities, you know what I mean, Like I'm from Australia,

1053
00:55:57.559 --> 00:56:03.239
I'm from got country Australia, why, you know, And and but.

1054
00:56:03.239 --> 00:56:04.440
We all see it news.

1055
00:56:04.599 --> 00:56:07.039
You know, we all saw the George Floyd, we all

1056
00:56:07.119 --> 00:56:09.360
saw black lives, and it all seem like people getting

1057
00:56:09.440 --> 00:56:14.000
much much more vocal about white fragility, and you know,

1058
00:56:14.079 --> 00:56:16.559
this whole thing about neurodiversity and the gender stuff and.

1059
00:56:16.519 --> 00:56:22.239
The trans issue, the trans issue.

1060
00:56:21.920 --> 00:56:24.920
You know, all all of that sort of stuff. We're

1061
00:56:24.960 --> 00:56:27.320
just our eyes are being opened, and I think that's

1062
00:56:27.320 --> 00:56:29.599
a really good thing because it's very easy to just

1063
00:56:29.639 --> 00:56:31.559
be We've got our own little blinkers on, and we

1064
00:56:31.599 --> 00:56:35.239
see the world through our own little perspective, and there's

1065
00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:37.639
there's just so much more that we're blind to. You

1066
00:56:37.679 --> 00:56:39.719
talk about patriarchy blindness in the book, but you know

1067
00:56:39.760 --> 00:56:41.159
there's a lot of blindness.

1068
00:56:41.719 --> 00:56:44.480
Yes. We were actually called out for calling it patriarchy

1069
00:56:44.480 --> 00:56:46.920
blindness by a woman who was blind, and we were like,

1070
00:56:47.000 --> 00:56:51.079
oh man, in our chapter about like taking for granted

1071
00:56:51.519 --> 00:56:57.199
physical ability and seeing differences, we we've used a term

1072
00:56:57.280 --> 00:57:02.199
that was probably pretty pretty ablest. Oops, ironic and oops.

1073
00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:06.079
So I mean we are we are all of us

1074
00:57:06.599 --> 00:57:11.360
confused by and our vision is clouded by our own privileges.

1075
00:57:11.480 --> 00:57:16.760
We look okay, we talk about the headwinds, tailwinds, asymmetry,

1076
00:57:17.159 --> 00:57:19.079
so when the wind is that you are back and

1077
00:57:19.119 --> 00:57:21.800
you are moving, you probably don't even notice it. But

1078
00:57:21.840 --> 00:57:24.599
when you have to walk against the wind, it's so hard.

1079
00:57:24.920 --> 00:57:29.320
And biologically it makes sense that our bodies remember adversity

1080
00:57:29.480 --> 00:57:32.000
and challenge because that is when we are at risk.

1081
00:57:32.039 --> 00:57:34.760
Your bodies don't remember when things are easy because it

1082
00:57:34.760 --> 00:57:37.679
doesn't have to because like you were safe and you

1083
00:57:37.719 --> 00:57:40.119
didn't have anything you needed to learn from that. So

1084
00:57:40.280 --> 00:57:42.719
we don't even notice when things are made easy for

1085
00:57:42.840 --> 00:57:44.920
us because we have the wind at our back. We

1086
00:57:45.079 --> 00:57:49.559
only notice the headwinds. So the headwinds tailwinds asymmetry is

1087
00:57:49.599 --> 00:57:53.639
a thing. So in order to learn from the headwind's

1088
00:57:53.679 --> 00:57:56.559
tailwans asymmetry, we talk about the tall tree fairness test.

1089
00:57:57.079 --> 00:58:00.559
So if you imagine the playing field is level and

1090
00:58:00.639 --> 00:58:02.599
like all of the trees are growing at the same

1091
00:58:02.639 --> 00:58:03.880
rate and the same height, and they have the same

1092
00:58:03.920 --> 00:58:06.480
exposure to the sun. But like, it turns out not

1093
00:58:06.639 --> 00:58:09.159
all the trees are growing up on that field. Some

1094
00:58:09.239 --> 00:58:12.440
of the trees are growing up on a cliff side,

1095
00:58:12.639 --> 00:58:15.880
bashed by the waves and the wind. And if you

1096
00:58:15.960 --> 00:58:18.480
take that tree which had to grow up gnarled and

1097
00:58:18.559 --> 00:58:21.199
craggy to survive, on those cliffs and you put it

1098
00:58:21.239 --> 00:58:24.039
on that level playing field, and it's like, this isn't comfortable.

1099
00:58:24.039 --> 00:58:28.480
I can't thrive here? Is it because that tree is crazy?

1100
00:58:29.079 --> 00:58:32.320
Is because that tree is making things up and all

1101
00:58:32.320 --> 00:58:34.000
the other trees are like, what are you talking about?

1102
00:58:34.079 --> 00:58:37.559
That's not that's not real. We've never seen that, Like,

1103
00:58:37.639 --> 00:58:40.679
look at that tree. That tree tells you it's truth

1104
00:58:40.800 --> 00:58:44.159
just in its existence. So when someone who's different from

1105
00:58:44.159 --> 00:58:47.400
you says, this is my experience and it's real and

1106
00:58:47.440 --> 00:58:50.079
true and valid, and you're like, but I've never seen

1107
00:58:50.119 --> 00:58:53.199
anything like that, How could that possibly be true? Everything

1108
00:58:53.320 --> 00:58:56.079
I've learned says that what you're telling me is not possible.

1109
00:58:57.840 --> 00:59:01.880
That person lived that real thing, So believe them. The

1110
00:59:01.960 --> 00:59:02.920
world is bigger.

1111
00:59:02.679 --> 00:59:03.280
Than your field.

1112
00:59:03.440 --> 00:59:04.920
There are cliffs too.

1113
00:59:05.239 --> 00:59:09.199
I actually loved that part of the book. And I

1114
00:59:09.280 --> 00:59:11.840
just did an episode of this podcast last week about

1115
00:59:12.079 --> 00:59:14.280
cognitive biases and why we believe the things that we did.

1116
00:59:14.320 --> 00:59:17.280
It was a very limited discussion. It was mostly about

1117
00:59:17.320 --> 00:59:20.440
why people believe conspiracy theories and why everybody's supporting Russell Brandt.

1118
00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:25.000
But that whole idea of those cognitive biases is it

1119
00:59:25.079 --> 00:59:30.039
is explained so well by those metaphors, and I think

1120
00:59:30.079 --> 00:59:32.599
that that is a really probably good place to stop.

1121
00:59:32.639 --> 00:59:35.599
I'm going to obviously tell everybody to go who hasn't

1122
00:59:35.599 --> 00:59:37.280
already been told by me to buy your book, because

1123
00:59:37.280 --> 00:59:38.679
I have been talking about it for a few years now.

1124
00:59:39.039 --> 00:59:40.400
But I'm going to tell them now to go by

1125
00:59:40.400 --> 00:59:41.039
the workbook.

1126
00:59:41.480 --> 00:59:44.199
And I really really appreciate it, and I am so

1127
00:59:44.440 --> 00:59:46.639
grateful for you making the time today, Amelia. This has

1128
00:59:46.679 --> 00:59:51.119
been a really fun and enlightening discussion. Thank you so much,

1129
00:59:51.119 --> 00:59:53.400
it's been my pleasure, and thank you for the Cabbage song.

1130
00:59:54.639 --> 00:59:58.599
Of course, Burnout and the accompanying Burnout Workbook are now.

1131
00:59:58.480 --> 00:59:59.960
Available in all bookstore.

1132
01:00:00.760 --> 01:00:03.639
If you enjoy the show, please do think about giving

1133
01:00:03.679 --> 01:00:06.559
us a five star review. On Apple Podcasts, click the

1134
01:00:06.599 --> 01:00:09.320
plus button to subscribe to that you never miss an episode,

1135
01:00:09.400 --> 01:00:12.239
or subscribe to my email list castdone, dot com Forward

1136
01:00:12.239 --> 01:00:16.119
slash subscribe, and obviously the new Instagram page at Crappy

1137
01:00:16.119 --> 01:00:19.960
to Happy pod or on Facebook Crappy to Happy Community

1138
01:00:20.119 --> 01:00:23.280
is our Facebook group. Thank you so much again for

1139
01:00:23.320 --> 01:00:25.840
being here and I cannot wait to catch you next

1140
01:00:25.880 --> 01:00:35.800
week from another episode of Crappy to Happy