Oct. 30, 2019

Bonus: Stories we tell ourselves with Clare Bowditch

Bonus: Stories we tell ourselves with Clare Bowditch
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Bonus: Stories we tell ourselves with Clare Bowditch
Bonus: Stories we tell ourselves with Clare Bowditch
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Season 4 Personal Growth & Healing

Musician, actor, radio presenter and so much more, Clare Bowditch has had a long and illustrious career but now she can add author to her list of achievements with the publishing of her memoir ‘You Own Kind of Girl’. Cass Dunn and Clare have an enlightening and soulful conversation about what happens to a child when they go through trauma, emotional eating, body consciousness and the stories we tell ourselves about the people we think we’re supposed to be. For anyone who has struggled with body issues or grief, there’s a lot to be taken from this episode. Speaking with warmth, humour and vulnerability Clare Bowditch is truly a living piece of Australian art. https://clarebowditch.com/
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Transcript
WEBVTT

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A listener production.

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Hey guys, you're listening to Crappy to Happy. I'm cass Done.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist, a mindfulness meditation teacher,

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and author of the Crappy to Happy books. In this series,

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we look at all of the factors that might be

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making you feel crappy and give you the tools and

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the techniques that will help you to overcome them. In

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each episode, I introduce you to interesting, inspiring, intelligent people

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who are experts in their field, and my hope is

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that they will help you feel less crappy and more happy. Today.

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I am so excited to be bringing you a very

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special bonus episode of Crappy to Happy. Claire Boditch is

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well known in Australia for her singing, songwriting, her radio

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and television career, and she has just released her memoir

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Your Own Kind of Girl. She's an absolutely incredible, delightful,

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amazing woman and we covered so much in this interview

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here she is Botitch. What a pleasure it is to

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have you in the studio for this super special bonus

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episode of Crappy They're Happy.

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I feel very very honored, deeply honored. Thank you so

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much for having me.

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You're so welcome.

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We couldn't let the opportunity go by to have you

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come in and talk about primarily the new book. But

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we should mention, obviously the fact that you're a very

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accomplished singer songwriter. You have had a career in radio.

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You appeared an Offspring very briefly, but yes, gosh, that

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was fun. Yes, and you do a whole lot of

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other things as well as well as being wife, mother

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to three. Of course, your latest gift to the world

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is your brand new book, Your Own kind of Girl, which.

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I finally finished. It only took twenty one or so years,

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maybe even longer. So yes, my book is your Own

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kind of Girl, and it's named after a song that

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I wrote in two thousand and eight of the same title,

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thank God It's over, my friend. Oh my gosh.

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Then eight you wrote the song Claire in the Can

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we just launch straight into the book because I've been

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reading it and I absolutely love it.

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Thank you so much. Means a lot. Thank you.

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First of all, you did say that you decided at

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twenty one you were going to write this book. Yes,

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that's right, and can you just explain sort of what well,

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I guess basically like, what took so long?

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What the heck a very busy lady? What was my

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three demanding children and my big career. Look, here's the

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truth of it. When I was twenty one years old,

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I had what many of your listeners and one in

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four Australians will have, which is I had a really

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acute episode of mental ill health. And that happened when

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I was overseas in London, supposed to be having the

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time of my life. Oh my god, it was the opposite.

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And just to give a quick context, you know, it

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took obviously about twenty years to work out how to

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tell this story, so I do it better in the book,

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but just to put it into context for our deal,

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isn't it. I when I was seas with a broken heart.

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You know, I had been with a chap who I

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adored for many years, and we're in that silly, codependent

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young relationship were probably should have let each other go

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a little while ago, and you didn't. And the breakup

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in the end was brutal, and I was very, very hurt,

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and I said, my god, I'm going to go overseas.

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Stuff is all. I'm going overseas. I'm going to start

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my brand new amazing life. And I was also something

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that I wasn't saying out loud at the time, but

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I was trying very hard from a very young age

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to always be thin, and I wasn't thin, and I

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thought it really mattered that I go on a diet

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and lose weight. And the voice in my head was

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very cruel, and you know, I can see now quite

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clearly I wasn't well. But I went on to quite

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an extreme diet overseas. It triggered panic response in me,

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and I stopped sleeping, and I stopped actually then being

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able to eat, and I became very unwell, and home

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I came with my tail between my legs, and I

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thought my life is over. I hadn't even begun. I

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was working in a call center. I was I had

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all these big, fat dreams. I had this list of

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this amazing life I was supposed to be living, and

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I was, in the meantime just hiding. I didn't want

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anyone to know my dreams. I thought, big girls like

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me don't get to live these kind of dreams. So

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I had a whole lot of cruel in a voice

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going on, and what it was clearly just you know,

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good bog standard anxiety. I came home and it took

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me a while to work out what that was. But

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in my recovery, and it was a good, slow, but

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good recovery. So that's the message that I always get

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out there. I never had to go back to that

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place again, not in the same way, because I learned

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to manage it. And in that recovery, I promised myself

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one day, if I do get well, when i'm really

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really old, I'm going to write this book. And really

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really old was forty and here we are. So look

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I finally did write it. And so for that reason,

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it's not a celebrity memoir. It's not about you know,

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the for touring and adventures and naughty things that happen

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behind the scenes. It's about being a human being who

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wants to live a big life and wondering how the

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hell do you do that?

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And I'm so glad that you did write the book

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because your story is so I mean, it's deeply personal,

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but it's also universal in some ways. Would you agree

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the story you talk about the stories we tell ourselves.

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That's a theme throughout the book, yes, and that is

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we've all got these stories that we tell ourselves correct.

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So yes, I do think, I do think that these

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are very common stories, and we don't like to speak

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about them in their detail too much because we think

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that we're weird, or that you know, we're especially broken

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or something. What the truth is, we as human beings,

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we are storytelling beasts. That's part of our survival mechanism.

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Our old brain now our lower brain, you know, our

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survival brain is carried across generations and it's there to

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keep us safe, and it tells us stories about how

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we're unsafe and how we need to long and those

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can be very useful in certain situations, but day to day,

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in the modern era, we tempted always to forget we

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do also have a higher brain. We have the ability

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to tell ourselves better stories. Now I realized that I

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can't control circumstances, but what my you know, the greatest

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gift I guess of this really quite a terrible experience

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as a young person was realizing that I do have

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some say. In the second story, I tell myself, I like.

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That, And Claire, the other thing that you pointed out,

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like one of the big stories, and it's a theme

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also throughout the book, is this idea and you just

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said it. Then big girls can't have amazing lives, they

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can't have big dreams.

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And there's this.

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I mean, you were obviously blessed with a beautiful singing

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voice and songwriting ability and you know, amazing talent intelligence.

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But weep going this story.

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But the most important thing about you was the size

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of your body.

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Correct. So that was a story I told myself. And

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to be very clear, this is not a true story.

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But it's not a story that I made up on

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my own. These are the stories that we absorb from

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the society around us, and they're just a very normal again,

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really normal part of a very normal thing to pick

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up in a commercialized society where we're constantly presented with

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fantasies about our better life and you know, our magical

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future selves. When in those advertisements the women don't look

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like me. They certainly don't. There was certainly no role

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models in my young life besides you know, perhaps miss

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Piggy and hey, you know, there was that kind of

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strong role model, but there was no one I felt

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who looked like me or had. I always felt too much,

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you know, I had too much feeling over and what

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I picked up from society, and I know that this

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is deeply, deeply common, and I'm just going to articulate it.

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The message I picked up as a kid with a

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in a big, big, healthy body, actually a healthy, strong body.

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The message I picked up was that body was wrong.

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That people who won in life were the ones who

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could contain their body size, could contain their feelings, could

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contain their aging. And you know, aging wasn't an issue

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then because I was just a kid, but I knew,

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you know, there was a voice in my head that said,

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you're doing it wrong and there's no place for people

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like you, and that competed with this longing that I

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had to sing and to share stories and to connect

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with people and to ask questions. So, you know, that

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is the story that I wanted to write, just really

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as a tale of hope and encouragement.

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Yes, and you're quite right, I'm similar age to you,

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and so growing up a special in.

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The nineties thirties.

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In the nineties, you're right, it was the supermodel kind

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of Yeah, everybody. It was every diet the most weird whacking.

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Can we just go through a list? I don't know

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about it. I did every diet and I want to say,

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you know, we know now under a health and every

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size framework that these you know, the diets are really

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if we want to be healthy, you know this is

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not the way to go. Extreme measures is not the

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way to go. It is not the way to go.

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I didn't know that as a kid. I went on

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my first serious start at the age of a very

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young age, and with under a doctor's supervision, I lost

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a dramatic amount of weight, and then I was trapped

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in a cycle for the rest of my teenage years

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of wanting to get back to this fantastical weight, which

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included can I just say it, so, there was like

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the Cavish soup diet, not the Israeli diet, but the

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Israeli military diet was one that was popular at Timers,

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all the ones in the magazines. It was the at Cans.

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It was the Beverly Hills Diet. Beverly Hills Diet, thank you.

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There was the WW more than once, many many times.

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I was alway very proud that I didn't go to

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Gloria Marshall, but I think that's mainly because I just

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couldn't afford it. Really, So there were just these dozens

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of diets and I say it playfully because God, you know,

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there are many women in society and now increasingly men

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who have been there as well. I just wish along

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the way that someone had known to tell me that

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there is an alternative, that you don't actually have to

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be any particular size to live your dreams in the world.

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That when I'm thin, I'm not better than when I'm fat,

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and when I'm fat, I'm not wrong. You know that

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this is just I have a what I like to

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call my piano accordion body, and it sings its little song,

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and it goes up and down the scales depending on

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whether I'm giving birth in that particular year, or whether

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I'm going through you know, anxiety or stress and I'm

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leaning on food or you know, whether I'm happy and

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on holidays. So I'm at peace with that now. But

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it took me a really long time. Tell me about you?

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Have you always been because you're you're a registered psychologist,

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so yes, And I know that perhaps you don't want

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to be talking about your own story too much, but

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I am really cute.

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At you turning it back interviewing the interviewer.

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Well, well, I feel less alone when I hear other

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women talking.

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So I yeah, I've talked about a little bit before.

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Growing up in that era, and especially, like you said,

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adults around us modeled that behavior, so we very much,

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I too, absorbed that message that this was the this

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was what you got you approval and validation, this is

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what was attractive, this is what this is how you

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needed to look.

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And I was. I can I had what.

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I would call a eating to sort of uh not

227
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otherwise specified to use psychological.

228
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Lingo, and.

229
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Eating disorder NS is what it's called. It's when you

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don't have anorexi, you don't have bulimia, you know, you

231
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don't have a binge eating disorder, but you have a

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very very very unhealthy relationship with food. And can I

233
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say I came to that point having put on, having

234
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done a.

235
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Crash diet. Was the Scarsdale medical diet?

236
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For God's sake? Yes? Did you do that one? Oh?

237
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Look I didn't, but it was there, it was waiting

238
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for me. Yeah.

239
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And I'd lost a lot of weight in two weeks,

240
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and I mean a five kilos or six kilos or something.

241
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I was never particularly overweight.

242
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I was always probably a very normal healthy weight, but

243
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I lost a lot. But I had the idea that

244
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I was too fat. I was always too fat, and

245
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we were all too fat. We all needed to be thinner,

246
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and so I no matter how what you weighed, you

247
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always needed to be thinner. And so I did that.

248
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I lost a lot of weight. I was at the

249
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time at UNI. I was working jobs on my feet

250
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all day, and I just kept this low weight. And

251
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then I got my first full time job where I

252
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was sitting at a desk from nine to five, and

253
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I put on two I think two kilos, two whole kilos.

254
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But those who've never weighed yourself look in the context

255
00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:16.679
of a human being, and that's not a lot of weight.

256
00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:20.320
And I became obsessed with how I needed to lose

257
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those two kilos, because that was I needed to get

258
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back to, like the the you know, the good, the

259
00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:27.120
ideal weight.

260
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Yeah, I was like sixty.

261
00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:30.679
I was sixty four kilos and I needed to be

262
00:13:30.759 --> 00:13:33.879
sixty two or something, which is very thin. I'm one

263
00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:38.240
hundred and seventy three centimeters tall. And I became obsessed.

264
00:13:38.279 --> 00:13:41.039
I literally like I measured, weighed everything that I put

265
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into my mouth for probably two years at least or more.

266
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It got in the way of everything. So I've definitely

267
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I have definitely been there. I resonate strongly, and.

268
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We understand to you listening, we understand that as we're

269
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talking about this, if you're anything like me, you know,

270
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these conversations can be quite triggering. We compare ourselves to

271
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it each other. You know, I did this, I did that?

272
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Is this right? Is that not? That story so strong

273
00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:08.360
in us of wanting to belong and wanting to be enough,

274
00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:11.200
and it's only natural and normal that our brains can

275
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get trapped in these cycles. But what you just described then,

276
00:14:14.759 --> 00:14:17.399
of that, you know that we forget how clever our

277
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brain is. If we are not eating enough, and if

278
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we are putting an extreme amount of pressure on ourselves.

279
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There is a healthy part of our brain that says,

280
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excuse my language, this is bullshit. You know, friggin' eat something,

281
00:14:30.279 --> 00:14:33.759
and then we very naturally overeat then, and then we

282
00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:35.960
accuse ourselves of overeating. We can get caught in this

283
00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:39.759
terrible ping pong that for some of us, myself included,

284
00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:45.840
lasted four years. And because I didn't look thin or

285
00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:48.399
you know, fat, or I was just kind of quite

286
00:14:49.039 --> 00:14:51.480
you know, just I was not so extreme on either

287
00:14:51.480 --> 00:14:54.720
side that anyone around me, went, ah, she has an

288
00:14:54.759 --> 00:14:57.759
eating disorder. We did not know in the eighties and

289
00:14:57.840 --> 00:15:02.320
nineties that, and even in naughties that you don't. You

290
00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:04.559
can't look at someone and tell whether or not they've

291
00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:07.919
got a wacky relationship with food or whether they're suffering

292
00:15:08.120 --> 00:15:11.759
because of their relationship with food, and so that can

293
00:15:11.799 --> 00:15:16.200
take so long to unpack. I think we don't again.

294
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I think most people at some point in their life

295
00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:22.679
will have some struggle with something that is in this

296
00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:26.519
realm of you know, it's a tricky secret using something

297
00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:29.200
to cope, and you're in there on your own. What

298
00:15:29.240 --> 00:15:30.919
we don't often talk about is the way we use

299
00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:33.559
diets to cope. We talk about using food to cope.

300
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But for me, if I look back at.

301
00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:38.960
My you know, my childhood self and my early twenties self,

302
00:15:39.879 --> 00:15:44.320
diets offered this story of hope, real potential, hope that

303
00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:48.039
one day, when I got thin, my real life would

304
00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:52.000
begin and I would have permission to shine in the world.

305
00:15:52.759 --> 00:15:55.960
And it took me a long time to realize that

306
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I have permission to shine anytime I want to shine. Yes,

307
00:16:00.679 --> 00:16:03.320
you know, it's the message, and it is you know,

308
00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:07.320
we're all scared of criticism, what I'm seeing more and

309
00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:10.320
more is it's really me who criticizes myself more than

310
00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:10.960
anyone else.

311
00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:16.240
And that's why I named my inner critic. And that's right.

312
00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:19.000
So I named my inner critic Frank in the twenties

313
00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:24.159
and started telling my ana critic to f off, Frank, foff.

314
00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:26.720
That was my thing, and that has been the secret

315
00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:29.080
of my success. And you're welcome to take it. And

316
00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:32.759
I apologize to anyone called Frank. Call your critic anything

317
00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:35.879
you like. But when that awful voice would come up,

318
00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:38.720
I would say, hang on a minute, no, get in

319
00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:41.559
the corner. You know, that voice is just there to

320
00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:44.440
try to protect us, and it sometimes goes a bit rogue.

321
00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:47.039
So we're the adults in the room. We get to

322
00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:47.759
tell it where to go.

323
00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:50.799
I think that's a really good point, Claire, that we

324
00:16:50.919 --> 00:16:57.080
have to not be almost critical of our self criticism.

325
00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:00.679
We need to understand, you know, it's about standing that

326
00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:06.240
that is our in some wacky, you know, dysfunctional way.

327
00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:08.480
It is our brain's way of trying.

328
00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:10.960
To keep us safe, and it thinks it thinks it's

329
00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:11.680
being helpful.

330
00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:12.799
Yes, And we.

331
00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:15.720
Just have to be able to kind of befriend that

332
00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:20.000
in a kind of mean yeah or whatever. Yeah, like,

333
00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:22.559
don't you're not needed here. I understand you're trying to

334
00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:25.160
keep me safe. But rather than getting at that cycle

335
00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:29.000
of getting down on ourselves for our self, chudge on,

336
00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:29.319
you know.

337
00:17:29.480 --> 00:17:32.039
Yeah. And look as we talk about this, you know,

338
00:17:32.119 --> 00:17:34.880
we're talking about it in an hour, you know, less

339
00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:37.039
than an hour of a podcast in a minute, and

340
00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:40.880
we're saying these things out loud. I understand and I

341
00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:43.839
know you do too, that in reality, we leave these

342
00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:47.400
things out through our lives. They sound really simple, they're

343
00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:49.440
not because we forget them all the time. So every

344
00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:53.400
day I get about thirty nine thousand opportunities to remind

345
00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:56.039
myself that my life is made up of the stories

346
00:17:56.039 --> 00:17:58.519
I tell myself and which ones I choose to believe.

347
00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:02.680
I think diagnos with mental health is so useful in

348
00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:05.720
that acute period, and it can be really useful, and

349
00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:10.880
it's imperative that we get help, professional help, But day

350
00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:13.160
to day we're the ones living with ourselves. And I

351
00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:16.680
was able to start thinking about my quirks, you know,

352
00:18:16.759 --> 00:18:20.200
these places where I had so much restlessness in me.

353
00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:23.640
I wanted to sing songs on stage. What a crazy

354
00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:25.839
thing to want to do, you know, that's part of

355
00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:29.119
my quirk too, and just learning to own it is

356
00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:33.880
an everyday process that is available to all of us.

357
00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:38.200
Yes, and Claire, speaking of therapy, you in the book

358
00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:40.359
you talked about your first are a psychologist at quite

359
00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:41.440
an early age.

360
00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:46.240
Yes, four to twelve. No, it was, well, it was

361
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:51.079
fifteen fifteen, and it was she was, well, let's put

362
00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:55.240
so I'll explain a little bit of backstory again. You know,

363
00:18:55.319 --> 00:19:00.440
these days we're speaking from the year nineteen. We're speaking

364
00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:02.799
of in the year twenty nineteen. Where am I what?

365
00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:07.680
I'm in a dark room? So I would say that

366
00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:11.839
these days we are we live in a governmental healthcare

367
00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:17.680
system that does allow us to access a psychologist, you know,

368
00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:21.400
through our GP. That's really really wonderful and important. That

369
00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:24.559
system's only been in play for maybe five, maybe ten

370
00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:26.880
years somewhere in between. There Before that, it was quite

371
00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:29.519
unusual to put your hand up and go, I'd like

372
00:19:29.559 --> 00:19:32.279
to see therapists please. You know, these were seeing as

373
00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:34.640
shameful things to want to do. You know, you just

374
00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:38.200
we had that Ossie, come on, get on with it,

375
00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:42.720
stop being so soft kind of vibe in general. But

376
00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:46.319
when I was a kid, I'm the youngest of five,

377
00:19:46.839 --> 00:19:49.799
and my older sister, Rowena, two years older than me,

378
00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:55.160
wonderful and glorious and bright and brilliant young woman who

379
00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:58.440
became very ill lived in the children's hospital for two

380
00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:01.880
years on life support because she had a very rare illness.

381
00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:05.480
It's kind of like a rare form of MS. And

382
00:20:05.519 --> 00:20:09.880
she passed away. And this was my normal and in

383
00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:12.920
there there was so much love and life and hope

384
00:20:13.319 --> 00:20:17.440
and community. But it also left a lot of you know,

385
00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:19.799
there's a long tale with childhood grief, and it left

386
00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:21.559
me with a lot of things to try and work out.

387
00:20:22.359 --> 00:20:24.960
And it may be one of the reasons why this

388
00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:29.279
critical survival brain was so loud in me so young.

389
00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:32.119
So by the time I was fifteen and I thought

390
00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:36.680
I was just really crap at diets. I thought it

391
00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:40.599
was a failure at diets. And I guess by this dage,

392
00:20:40.599 --> 00:20:42.519
you know, my mom had twigged that something was going on,

393
00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:47.599
and she sent me to my first psychologist, who I

394
00:20:47.720 --> 00:20:52.920
call Anika in the book. And I wish I had

395
00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:57.680
stayed in Anika's care because she was a specialist in

396
00:20:58.119 --> 00:21:02.079
childhood eating disorders. And again, you know, I wasn't really

397
00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:04.000
aware I had an eating disorder. I thought I was

398
00:21:04.039 --> 00:21:06.519
just bad at dieting, and I saw her for a

399
00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:10.839
series of sessions, and so many emotions came up for

400
00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:14.480
me that I said, no, this is not for me.

401
00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:17.400
I sort of pretended she didn't know. You know, I

402
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:19.319
said to Mama, no, this is all a bit silly.

403
00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:23.519
And I didn't go back again to a psychologist until

404
00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:26.640
I had my nervous breakdown at the age of twenty one. Really,

405
00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:29.119
but she, you know, she taught. She tried to teach

406
00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:33.319
me to meditate and to observe myself, and in observing myself,

407
00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:35.039
I found out that I was a little bit weird.

408
00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:38.839
And I didn't like that feeling. Oh really, yeah, a

409
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:41.400
little bit weird, meaning that she sort of pointed out

410
00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:43.920
that maybe my relationship with food might have something to

411
00:21:43.960 --> 00:21:47.839
do with seeking security, or maybe the fact that I

412
00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:51.920
liked to tap my feet or have particular quirks to

413
00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:54.359
keep me. I thought they were just funny little quirks

414
00:21:54.359 --> 00:21:57.000
things I did with my hands or feet or word

415
00:21:57.079 --> 00:21:59.599
games in my head. Yeah. I thought they were just

416
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:03.160
sweet little things that I did, and everyone did them.

417
00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:05.960
And she started pointing out to me everyone does do them,

418
00:22:06.039 --> 00:22:09.160
but you know, some of us do them more than others,

419
00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:10.960
and sometimes they are a sign that we need a

420
00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:14.440
little support. I just didn't like hearing that, so off

421
00:22:14.440 --> 00:22:14.799
I went.

422
00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:18.240
Did that stay with you though, you know, even though

423
00:22:18.279 --> 00:22:20.640
you didn't stay with that process, did that stay with

424
00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:21.400
you and help you?

425
00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:24.240
Absolutely? And yeah, and now I can look back, and

426
00:22:24.279 --> 00:22:27.599
she was telling me that I was experiencing a you know,

427
00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:32.640
symptoms of OCDEAH, which is and you know, which might

428
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:34.519
have had something to do with PTSD, which might have

429
00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:37.079
had something to do with my gad whatever the names,

430
00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:40.880
and you call these these you know, feelings and experiences

431
00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:44.759
we have. They were really helpful, just to context to

432
00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:48.079
realize it. And I've been able to draw back on that.

433
00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:49.759
I actually sent her a copy of the book. We're

434
00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:52.559
still in contact, just a tiny little bit through a friend,

435
00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:54.759
and I wanted, yeah, I did want her to know

436
00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:57.319
that even though we only saw each other briefly, she

437
00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:01.039
did set me on the path of asking myself questions.

438
00:23:01.480 --> 00:23:03.119
Yeah, you know, I'm sure that would have meant so

439
00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:03.680
much to her.

440
00:23:04.119 --> 00:23:04.799
Good, I hope. So.

441
00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:10.279
Yeah, and Claire, I'm so glad that you mentioned that

442
00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:13.359
like that, you included that those little the tapping and

443
00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:15.920
the word games because I think a lot of people

444
00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:20.519
have got little things like that that they don't recognize

445
00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:26.759
as being little security, controlling, little compulsive quirks that you know,

446
00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:29.680
they serve, they serve a kind of a purpose, but

447
00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:33.039
so much of that, like it's just a humanness, right,

448
00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:38.119
but we don't necessarily identify readily that.

449
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:40.119
Yeah, maybe that's what that's about.

450
00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:42.759
These might be little well, they're almost like little messages

451
00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:46.200
from ourself, you know, to ourself. And the way she

452
00:23:46.279 --> 00:23:49.920
spotted it was she'd asked me to talk about my sister,

453
00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:53.759
about Rowie and what had happened. And I'd always told myself,

454
00:23:54.319 --> 00:23:57.519
you know, I'd sort of accepted a childhood version of grief,

455
00:23:57.559 --> 00:24:01.920
which is, you know, there was Jean Pierjeaux calls it

456
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:05.240
this age of magical thinking, where our identities forming at

457
00:24:05.240 --> 00:24:08.519
the age of you know, five seven. I'd always thought

458
00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:10.200
there was something I could have done that I didn't

459
00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:12.920
do to save her. Now, this is a common story

460
00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:16.799
of grief, it's really common. I didn't speak it. I

461
00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:18.640
didn't know to speak it. I just had this bad

462
00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:20.480
feeling in me, like I'd done something wrong and I

463
00:24:20.519 --> 00:24:23.440
didn't know what it was. As I was talking about

464
00:24:23.480 --> 00:24:25.759
my sister. I started doing a tapping game with my

465
00:24:25.880 --> 00:24:27.799
lip and I didn't realize I was doing it, and

466
00:24:27.799 --> 00:24:31.279
that's you know, this is the gift of an observant therapist.

467
00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:33.519
She said to me, what are you doing with your hands?

468
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:38.200
And I said nothing, you know nothing? Why And she said, well,

469
00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:39.920
you're doing a little tapping thing.

470
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:40.119
You know.

471
00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:43.519
I was doing a pattern in my head and something

472
00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:45.799
to point out here is a small adjunct. You know,

473
00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:49.000
I'm a songwriter, ideal in rhythms. These quirks that we

474
00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:52.839
have aren't always terrible, horrible things at all. Sometimes they

475
00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:56.640
can be channeled into our gifts. But I wasn't there yet.

476
00:24:56.680 --> 00:24:58.400
I was just having a little tap and singing a

477
00:24:58.440 --> 00:25:00.799
song in my head to come at me and sues me,

478
00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:03.279
I guess as I was talking about my sister. So

479
00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:06.519
she pointed it out and she said, have a little

480
00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:08.880
looks through the week, see if you have other habits.

481
00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:11.039
And I said, I don't think I do well. I

482
00:25:11.079 --> 00:25:13.359
came back with a hopper of a list, didn't I

483
00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:16.359
a good, good, red hot rapper. All the little funny

484
00:25:16.359 --> 00:25:18.720
things I did, like standing under the shower for six

485
00:25:18.759 --> 00:25:21.240
seconds exactly six and six is my lucky number. And

486
00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:24.240
blah blah blah blah blah. Now nobody knows these things

487
00:25:24.279 --> 00:25:26.880
about us. But since I wrote this book, I've had

488
00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:28.880
quite a number of people come up and say, I

489
00:25:28.920 --> 00:25:31.559
do that funny little thing too. And you're right. You

490
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:33.440
would see this as a therapist. You would see this

491
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:36.279
and know exactly what it is. These are these ways

492
00:25:36.279 --> 00:25:40.079
that we comfort ourselves, and you know, some of them

493
00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:43.480
are harmless, but their messages, like I'm doing a bit

494
00:25:43.480 --> 00:25:46.200
of tapping on this promotional tour, you know, with the

495
00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:50.039
with the talking about this book, it's quite hard to

496
00:25:50.119 --> 00:25:52.160
go back into this space. And I'm aware all the

497
00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:54.680
time that I've got these shared stories. I'm talking about

498
00:25:54.680 --> 00:25:56.920
our family, but I'm just one member of a really

499
00:25:56.960 --> 00:26:00.640
big family, and it's tough to lose someone in your family.

500
00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:03.440
And the only reason I would go back and talk

501
00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:06.519
about it is because I have something I do have

502
00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:08.599
a youth. I think it's a useful. I hope it's

503
00:26:08.599 --> 00:26:11.960
a hopeful story to tell, but it's not so you know,

504
00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:13.680
there are parts of it that are not so easy

505
00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:18.880
to read at the beginning, and that's our life, isn't it?

506
00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:23.599
Was it healing for you? I just were really observed

507
00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:25.920
in that first part of the book. You did such

508
00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:28.160
a beautiful job of describing that experience.

509
00:26:29.079 --> 00:26:36.279
But through I'll get emotional talking about it now, hey.

510
00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:37.880
Making me emotional, bloody hell.

511
00:26:38.279 --> 00:26:42.359
Through the eyes of a child, and as children, we

512
00:26:42.440 --> 00:26:46.759
don't make sense of those things. And you know, like

513
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:48.759
you said, there was just this badness and there was

514
00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:51.920
this shame. But to go back and put yourself in

515
00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:56.599
that position again and it was that in some way

516
00:26:56.680 --> 00:27:00.519
healing for you, Like you're almost reparenting yourself through that process.

517
00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:02.680
That's what it felt like to me. That's what it

518
00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:03.799
would almost be like.

519
00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:08.680
It's really moving for me to hear you ask that question,

520
00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:14.039
to hear you and I know that you know that, Yeah,

521
00:27:14.039 --> 00:27:15.920
I know that so many of us as little people,

522
00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:19.519
feel this stuff. And that is why I wanted to

523
00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:24.480
go back in again, because it was healing, because I

524
00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:29.359
have still carried this horrific set of feelings and I've

525
00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:33.000
done so much in my life to try and channel

526
00:27:33.079 --> 00:27:37.319
that into my work. But to be here and be

527
00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:39.480
able to say these things out loud with you and

528
00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:43.200
to know that I'm not alone in that really is

529
00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:47.319
this process now, this conversation that we're having today, and

530
00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:50.119
that I'm getting to have now with other people. I'm

531
00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:55.079
finding that healing because it's giving purpose to Yeah, it's

532
00:27:55.119 --> 00:27:58.920
giving purpose to having said it out loud. Yeah. And

533
00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:00.960
that's why it took something you asked at the beginning.

534
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:03.039
You know, we were in a lighter mood than and

535
00:28:03.079 --> 00:28:04.799
you asked at the beginning why it takes so long

536
00:28:04.839 --> 00:28:06.880
to write? And that is this is the truth of

537
00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:09.680
it that I knew I had to be strong and

538
00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:13.960
steady in order to go out and speak about this stuff.

539
00:28:14.279 --> 00:28:16.279
But at the same time, we're all kind of always

540
00:28:16.279 --> 00:28:18.200
a work in progress. I also get that sheense that

541
00:28:18.279 --> 00:28:20.039
you know, like, oh, write this when I'm when I've

542
00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:21.640
dealt with this, then I'll talk about it like.

543
00:28:21.640 --> 00:28:23.599
What I'm what I'm fixed this, then I'll talk about it.

544
00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:26.720
We never kind of quite get to that fixed No,

545
00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:30.799
not at all. I hope you're enjoying season four of

546
00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:32.839
the show, and hey, i would love for you to

547
00:28:32.920 --> 00:28:35.519
check out my brand new YouTube channel where I'm sharing

548
00:28:35.640 --> 00:28:38.240
even more tips on how you can feel less crappy

549
00:28:38.319 --> 00:28:39.039
and more happy.

550
00:28:39.160 --> 00:28:40.279
It's YouTube dot.

551
00:28:40.119 --> 00:28:43.079
Com Forward slash Cast Done, so come over check it out.

552
00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:44.960
I'd love for you to subscribe.

553
00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:47.359
And if you haven't already taken my free seven day

554
00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:49.799
Happiness challenge. You can sign up for that at cast

555
00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:57.359
done dot com forward slash Happiness. I did a television

556
00:28:57.359 --> 00:29:00.079
show yesterday and it was a wonderful show, but I

557
00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:01.960
had about two and a half minutes at the end

558
00:29:02.680 --> 00:29:06.119
to talk about this experience. And you know, it came

559
00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:08.440
after this sort of package you know, when they package

560
00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:12.920
up your life in thirty seconds to explain who you

561
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:14.759
are to an audience who are at home and may

562
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:18.759
never have heard of you. And gosh, I walked off

563
00:29:18.759 --> 00:29:21.720
feeling so wobbly with all the same old stories about

564
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:23.680
how I didn't do it right and I said the

565
00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:26.160
wrong thing too. I sort of was trying to tell

566
00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:28.319
a story about how my parents always taught me it

567
00:29:28.359 --> 00:29:30.480
was our insides that matter, not our outsides.

568
00:29:31.039 --> 00:29:35.160
But instead I said, on national television, my parents taught

569
00:29:35.200 --> 00:29:37.640
me that it's my outsides that matter, not my insides.

570
00:29:38.119 --> 00:29:40.240
And nobody pulled me up on it because the clock

571
00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:42.559
was ticking and we were all about to go out,

572
00:29:43.559 --> 00:29:48.279
you know, the next show was coming, and so you know,

573
00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:51.640
I'm still taught. I would be tempted to torture myself

574
00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:53.680
about that, and I did have a little bit of

575
00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:57.119
torturing myself. But now that I've spoken about my frank,

576
00:29:57.480 --> 00:30:00.000
and now that my family and friends and my husband

577
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:03.799
and you know, everyone knows. Now I've said it out loud,

578
00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:07.480
we can have community the friends who can remind us.

579
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:09.559
I still need that reminder all the time that I'm

580
00:30:09.640 --> 00:30:12.319
just doing my best. I was always, we will always

581
00:30:12.359 --> 00:30:15.960
have a frank. When I say I'm cured from acute anxiety,

582
00:30:16.039 --> 00:30:17.720
I mean that I never had to go back to

583
00:30:17.799 --> 00:30:21.799
that wall upon wall upon wave upon wave of panic

584
00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:24.640
attack in which I couldn't function, never had to go

585
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:27.079
back there. But that doesn't mean I'm not always managing

586
00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:29.599
my sensitive, creative nature.

587
00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:33.359
And I think that's that's that's there's a gift in

588
00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:35.759
that lesson, too, Isn't It Like I can't remember what

589
00:30:35.799 --> 00:30:38.440
the exact quote is, but it's like you're allowed to

590
00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:41.079
be You're a masterpiece and a work in progress all

591
00:30:41.079 --> 00:30:42.920
at the same time. I don't remember that who said

592
00:30:42.920 --> 00:30:44.480
the quote, and I've probably got it wrong, But you

593
00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:45.559
know that quote, you know.

594
00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:47.559
When you said that, I was thinking, I was thinking,

595
00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:50.319
I don't know that I what did I say that?

596
00:30:50.599 --> 00:30:53.200
Did I? Because that sounds really like a good thing

597
00:30:53.240 --> 00:30:55.279
to say. But I was flicking through my book secretly

598
00:30:55.319 --> 00:30:56.440
here going where is that quote?

599
00:30:57.960 --> 00:31:00.680
Somebody else's quote? I don't remember who said it, but

600
00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:06.000
this is, yeah, we are we are all things. I

601
00:31:06.319 --> 00:31:08.640
write it in a chapter of my book. It's called

602
00:31:08.680 --> 00:31:11.039
Storms and Other weather Patterns. And I try to have

603
00:31:11.079 --> 00:31:15.559
a little stab at this concept that we don't really

604
00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:18.559
understand a whole lot, if we're going to be really,

605
00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:21.799
really honest, we don't understand a whole lot yet about

606
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:24.480
treating and managing mental ill health.

607
00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:28.799
Because so often we fail to include in the conversation

608
00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:32.079
not just the storm, not just the weather, you know,

609
00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:36.759
the weather pattern, the hail, the awful bit, but also

610
00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:42.519
the other part of it, the sunshine, the rainbow, you know,

611
00:31:42.839 --> 00:31:46.319
the part that allows us to connect more deeply with

612
00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:48.720
human beings as well. And I, you know, we don't

613
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:54.160
even know why. So many mental illnesses are like ven diagrams,

614
00:31:54.400 --> 00:31:56.000
you know, this one and the other one. They all

615
00:31:56.039 --> 00:31:58.680
share these set of symptoms, and often in a you know,

616
00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:02.519
in a medicalized model, which is very useful, you know,

617
00:32:03.400 --> 00:32:07.039
for many people. The medications that we give to people

618
00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:10.000
who are experiencing mental ill health are often the same

619
00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:14.200
for different diagnoses, and what else is true is that

620
00:32:14.599 --> 00:32:17.160
it might work for one person doesn't for another. And

621
00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:19.160
I guess I say all of this by way of saying, A,

622
00:32:19.400 --> 00:32:21.599
it's really important to have a good professional who cares

623
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:24.559
about you and your team. But B there's so much

624
00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:28.519
we don't know yet. And we're having a conversation today

625
00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:32.240
and in the world about where is the Venn diagram

626
00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:36.079
between what we call genius or brilliance or our higher

627
00:32:36.119 --> 00:32:40.559
selves and what we call mental ill health. And it's

628
00:32:40.599 --> 00:32:43.359
going to be an ongoing conversation and it must be.

629
00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:49.759
But you know, what really helped me was not finding

630
00:32:49.759 --> 00:32:52.359
a name for what was wrong with me in terms

631
00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:55.119
of a clear diagnosis, but was a little book by

632
00:32:55.119 --> 00:32:57.680
a lady called doctor Claireweeks where she just lumped it

633
00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:00.920
all under the topic of nervous sufering. And she was

634
00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:07.759
an old Australian post war progressive front runner. She's a

635
00:33:07.799 --> 00:33:10.480
first woman in Australia to get a doctorate from the

636
00:33:10.519 --> 00:33:14.400
Sydney University and she had this. She was a gp

637
00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:16.680
with the technique that helped people with what she called

638
00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:20.720
nervous suffering. That is what helped me so much, Just

639
00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:24.559
one little book that said this is just a normal,

640
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:28.319
natural thing that your body's going through. You might feel sensitive, weird,

641
00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:31.079
shaky as she went through the list of symptoms, and

642
00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:33.960
I finally went, oh, my gosh, yes that's me. I'm

643
00:33:33.960 --> 00:33:36.160
not nuts. So I'm actually going through a human experience

644
00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:37.359
and I'm going to get well.

645
00:33:37.400 --> 00:33:40.400
That's common humanity, I think.

646
00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:43.519
I think that's what is really is such a gift

647
00:33:43.640 --> 00:33:46.200
in your book as well, because it's the gift.

648
00:33:46.039 --> 00:33:47.960
Of humanity of knowing that you're not the only one.

649
00:33:48.160 --> 00:33:50.799
You know that other people have experienced similar things, even

650
00:33:51.079 --> 00:33:54.000
the way that you describe the voice in your head,

651
00:33:54.200 --> 00:33:58.000
because we all have the same voice, and like you said,

652
00:33:58.000 --> 00:33:59.559
we don't speak it out loud, and we all think

653
00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:01.440
that something weird and quirky about me, and you wouldn't

654
00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:04.079
ever share that with somebody. But when you do, suddenly

655
00:34:04.119 --> 00:34:07.240
everybody says, oh, yeah, I say that, Yeah, that sounds

656
00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:08.800
exactly like the voice in my head.

657
00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:12.239
One of the things that helped me call it out too.

658
00:34:12.519 --> 00:34:18.159
And I'm gonna you know, I say this carefully because

659
00:34:18.199 --> 00:34:20.199
I'm going to talk about parenthood just for a sec

660
00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:23.639
if that's okay, And I know that for many people

661
00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:26.000
you might want to be a parent and you don't

662
00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:27.760
get to be, or for many others, you have no

663
00:34:27.880 --> 00:34:30.199
interest in being a parent, and you just sick of

664
00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:32.639
people always crapping on about it all the time. So

665
00:34:32.840 --> 00:34:35.840
neither of you know. But I love that disclaimer. I

666
00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:37.480
feel for both of those things, because I'm going to

667
00:34:37.519 --> 00:34:39.199
just talk about my experience in a way. One of

668
00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:41.639
the things that made me feel brave was having something

669
00:34:41.639 --> 00:34:45.280
to be brave for, and that could be almost anything,

670
00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:49.000
you know, something that's meaningful. And for me this it

671
00:34:49.039 --> 00:34:50.800
was the age of twenty seven that I got really

672
00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:53.960
gutsy about my career because I knew then I was

673
00:34:54.039 --> 00:34:55.960
going to I was twenty six actually, and I was

674
00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:59.719
going to become a mum. And I thought, I can't

675
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:02.519
be the only woman who's had this struggle, and I

676
00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:04.239
can't be the only woman. You know, the fact that

677
00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:07.239
I wasn't hearing my voice on radio or seeing it

678
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:11.039
on TV or et cetera, et cetera. It occurred to

679
00:35:11.079 --> 00:35:14.719
me that maybe that wasn't Maybe that was just because

680
00:35:15.320 --> 00:35:17.800
I hadn't counted myself in yet. Maybe I just had

681
00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:19.639
to get out there and do it. And knowing that

682
00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:22.360
I was about to give birth made me get on

683
00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:25.880
with it, you know, and it made me fiercer with Frank,

684
00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:29.599
telling Frank to just poq please. I remember the first

685
00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:32.880
time I was ever on TV, and you know, I

686
00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:35.280
just wanted to run, run, Run, run, run for the hills.

687
00:35:36.119 --> 00:35:37.760
I was on a TV show. It was actually Paris

688
00:35:37.760 --> 00:35:39.519
and Nicky Hilton were guests on the show. I had

689
00:35:39.559 --> 00:35:43.800
no idea who they were. It was Roy hg the

690
00:35:44.039 --> 00:35:46.679
manager of Nicky and Paris that you know, thought that

691
00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:48.960
they were being spoken to disrespectfully. There was all this

692
00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:51.000
who are going on? He was about to pull the show,

693
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:53.679
and we're about to We've just gotten on the show

694
00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:55.599
because our friend Jake worked on the show and somebody

695
00:35:55.599 --> 00:35:57.920
had canceled and said get down to the studio. You know,

696
00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:00.199
you can be on TV for the first time. So

697
00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:02.760
off we went. Look that everybody in my body wanted

698
00:36:02.800 --> 00:36:06.599
to just hide under a rock. Everything told me I

699
00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:08.960
was going to do it wrong, but I was able

700
00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:13.119
to draw on my bravery because I thought, I'm just

701
00:36:13.159 --> 00:36:15.000
going to try and be an example in the world

702
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:18.840
of you know, someone who gave it a crack. I

703
00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:20.840
don't want to wake up at fifty and say I

704
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:22.840
didn't give it a crack. And it was kind of

705
00:36:22.840 --> 00:36:27.239
that simple. So if anyone's listening and they're wondering whether

706
00:36:27.320 --> 00:36:29.559
or not you know they have they have what it

707
00:36:29.599 --> 00:36:32.800
takes to give it a crack. Look, you might not, but.

708
00:36:32.760 --> 00:36:35.960
Why not give it a go have a crack anyway.

709
00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:38.639
Yeah, then we'll work it out. We'll work it out

710
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:39.679
as you go along.

711
00:36:40.719 --> 00:36:42.679
Claire, I just wanted to ask you to We talked

712
00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:44.679
just going all the way back to we talked about

713
00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:48.079
that eighties nineties kind of diet culture, and you know,

714
00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:50.599
without going into all the detail, you know you went

715
00:36:50.679 --> 00:36:52.440
on a diet at a young age, lost a lot

716
00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:54.639
of weight and got a lot of approval and validation,

717
00:36:54.760 --> 00:36:57.440
you know, from school teachers and friends, parents, And so

718
00:36:57.960 --> 00:37:01.519
it's really I can understan and why we absorb the

719
00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:05.360
message that thing is good. But do you think much

720
00:37:05.400 --> 00:37:10.320
has changed? You have, obviously, but in our society do

721
00:37:10.360 --> 00:37:16.000
you think we're moving fast enough to change them society?

722
00:37:17.119 --> 00:37:19.639
I think is extraordinary to be where we are in society.

723
00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:22.679
The fact that you and I, two women, get to

724
00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:26.400
have this conversation here today, and there's this thing called

725
00:37:26.440 --> 00:37:30.079
the Internet upon which this conversation will be uploaded, and

726
00:37:30.159 --> 00:37:34.280
anyone anywhere in the entire universe a world. Sorry, let's

727
00:37:34.280 --> 00:37:39.079
just say Earth, Well maybe more. Who knows anyone anywhere

728
00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:41.280
could listen to it with the technology to listen to it.

729
00:37:41.639 --> 00:37:44.079
That's wild, and that reminds me we've got half a

730
00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:46.599
chance in a way that we did not in a

731
00:37:46.639 --> 00:37:50.239
mainstream society where there was no internet. You know. So

732
00:37:51.239 --> 00:37:55.519
once again, the fact that we have conversational and structured,

733
00:37:55.599 --> 00:38:00.719
rigorous research based frameworks like health at every size, and

734
00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:04.960
we have universities still, you know, sort of able to

735
00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:08.920
do research into the nature of our body, our ability

736
00:38:08.920 --> 00:38:13.719
to deal with weight and so on, and deal with weight,

737
00:38:13.800 --> 00:38:15.960
meaning why does somebody you know white? Did me and

738
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:17.880
my brother eat the same amount and I put on

739
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:21.320
weight and he didn't. You know, these things will give

740
00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:23.519
me hope. It might be that I have a special

741
00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:25.840
ability to survive. You know, at the moment in our

742
00:38:25.880 --> 00:38:29.639
current conversation around what we call obesity, we don't have

743
00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:33.599
much positive stuff in there. The truth is, as a

744
00:38:33.599 --> 00:38:39.000
pretty healthy, happy woman whose weight does change, you know,

745
00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:41.800
the challenge is to be kind to ourselves through all

746
00:38:41.880 --> 00:38:46.719
of our different iterations. And so your question was, really,

747
00:38:46.840 --> 00:38:48.599
have we changed enough and are we in a good

748
00:38:48.639 --> 00:38:50.760
place with it. Of course, we've got a long way

749
00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:54.159
to go, you know, in all different areas of representation,

750
00:38:56.320 --> 00:39:01.280
we are still a very narrow culture when it comes

751
00:39:01.320 --> 00:39:04.559
to which voices we elevate and which voices we don't,

752
00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:07.320
who we allow to climb up the ranks, and who

753
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:09.519
we don't. And this plays itself out in politics, in

754
00:39:09.559 --> 00:39:14.800
the arts, in everywhere, you know, in every working environment,

755
00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:20.639
and in every cultural environment, in countries and everywhere. Power is.

756
00:39:20.239 --> 00:39:22.559
This is a conversation we can have, so you can see,

757
00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:26.639
I never think about my body anymore in the context

758
00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:29.679
of one little woman who goes into you know, your

759
00:39:29.679 --> 00:39:32.280
local department store and can't quite find our size there.

760
00:39:32.320 --> 00:39:36.920
It's so much bigger than that. For me. It's about

761
00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:44.800
whose voices we allow to be heard, and so I don't.

762
00:39:45.320 --> 00:39:46.800
Of course, we're not there yet. Of course we've got

763
00:39:46.840 --> 00:39:49.360
a long way to go. But I am pleased that

764
00:39:49.519 --> 00:39:51.960
at the very least I can tell a story like

765
00:39:52.039 --> 00:39:54.800
this out loud and we get to have a conversation

766
00:39:54.880 --> 00:39:55.280
about it.

767
00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:57.320
I'm so glad that you did, and what a great

768
00:39:57.360 --> 00:40:01.280
reminder too, and for me as well. We all have

769
00:40:01.320 --> 00:40:05.280
a responsibility to use our voices and our platforms to

770
00:40:05.320 --> 00:40:08.280
make sure that we are elevating the conversation.

771
00:40:08.719 --> 00:40:10.639
Yeah, and even if we're not, like, can we at

772
00:40:10.719 --> 00:40:13.719
least make it interesting? Guys? You know what I mean?

773
00:40:14.239 --> 00:40:18.159
Like because sometimes in this pursuit too of trying to

774
00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:20.360
be better and more and so we really, you know,

775
00:40:20.440 --> 00:40:22.639
we forget how to have a bit of fun as well. So,

776
00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:28.000
you know, I like to I like to think that

777
00:40:28.360 --> 00:40:30.559
life is for living, and we know that life is

778
00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:33.960
pretty short and we don't want to waste it worrying that,

779
00:40:34.519 --> 00:40:36.360
you know, we don't fit here, we don't fit there.

780
00:40:36.599 --> 00:40:39.000
I really look forward to people being I mean, I

781
00:40:39.079 --> 00:40:42.119
love a bit of a bold a bold woman or

782
00:40:42.119 --> 00:40:44.239
a man at the dinner party, or human being at

783
00:40:44.239 --> 00:40:49.320
the dinner party. What about you? You know, Like, honestly,

784
00:40:50.199 --> 00:40:53.280
this is you know, the rogue that like when someone

785
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:54.920
walks into your clinic and you're like, I don't know

786
00:40:54.920 --> 00:40:56.679
what to make of you. They must be fascinating.

787
00:40:58.199 --> 00:41:02.880
I find everybody fascinating. That's why you can do it,

788
00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:05.960
you do, Yeah, Yeah, I do. I find every I

789
00:41:06.039 --> 00:41:09.960
find people fascinating. I love having the opportunity outside of

790
00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:12.440
the clinic, you know, I love this opportunity to speak

791
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:16.599
to so many people about so many interesting topics. I

792
00:41:16.760 --> 00:41:19.639
want to make sure that everybody knows not only is

793
00:41:19.639 --> 00:41:22.079
your book fabulous, and I haven't finished reading it yet,

794
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:25.679
but in my attempt to get it closer to finished

795
00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:27.280
before I had the chance to talk to you, I

796
00:41:27.320 --> 00:41:29.960
downloaded the audio I downloaded the audio book and I

797
00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:30.639
listened to it in the.

798
00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:31.360
Car on the way here.

799
00:41:31.719 --> 00:41:36.519
And I want everybody to get the audio version of

800
00:41:36.559 --> 00:41:41.159
this book. The fact that you have the connection of

801
00:41:41.199 --> 00:41:43.880
the story to the song, the fact that you've actually

802
00:41:43.880 --> 00:41:46.639
played the lyrics the old tapes from your childhood, and

803
00:41:46.679 --> 00:41:49.639
you know, the fact that you've actually edited in, like

804
00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:54.159
subbed in the actual tapes. It's just it's stunning. You've

805
00:41:54.159 --> 00:41:54.679
done such a.

806
00:41:54.639 --> 00:41:59.199
Beautiful Jobs's means so much to me because, my goodness,

807
00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:04.280
the you know, this story is a story of some

808
00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:07.039
of the origins of the songs. And when it came

809
00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:10.360
to recording the audio book, my husband Marty, who's my producer,

810
00:42:10.440 --> 00:42:13.039
and you know, we didn't really get to it, but

811
00:42:13.079 --> 00:42:16.480
there is this element of our love story in there,

812
00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:19.039
and it had to be because he was my bandmatee

813
00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:22.400
and you know, our love story was not very straightforward.

814
00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:24.920
It was quite a curious one and quite a fortunate

815
00:42:24.960 --> 00:42:27.280
one in some ways, but I'll leave that for the book.

816
00:42:27.519 --> 00:42:29.519
The two of us said, let's do this together. We'll

817
00:42:29.559 --> 00:42:32.199
go to our little home studio out in the burbs

818
00:42:32.199 --> 00:42:34.760
and Melbs and we sat down and honestly, we thought

819
00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:36.000
this was going to be a walk in the park

820
00:42:36.039 --> 00:42:37.760
and just sit down and read the book. You know,

821
00:42:38.199 --> 00:42:41.320
that's what I do. Read the book. It's fine. Oh

822
00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:43.880
the struggles I had with a trying to do silly

823
00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:46.559
things like get my mother's accent and be not weep

824
00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:49.559
and weep, you know, as I went through these emotional bits,

825
00:42:49.599 --> 00:42:55.159
and it really, it really was a very big project.

826
00:42:55.199 --> 00:42:57.440
And you're the first person I've spoken to who's heard it,

827
00:42:57.480 --> 00:42:59.280
and it just means the world to me that you

828
00:42:59.400 --> 00:43:01.199
enjoyed it. Thank you so so much.

829
00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:04.159
I would to tell anybody by the book for sure,

830
00:43:04.239 --> 00:43:06.960
but also listen to the book.

831
00:43:07.280 --> 00:43:10.039
It's it's amazing. Maybe we could do it too. For one,

832
00:43:10.280 --> 00:43:12.079
I wish, I wish I had control over the things.

833
00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:14.280
I so appreciate it. One of the funnest things about

834
00:43:14.280 --> 00:43:16.920
recording the book was getting my mom in and because

835
00:43:16.960 --> 00:43:19.159
you know, fr Frank, there's a swear word in there,

836
00:43:19.159 --> 00:43:24.320
and my mom's pretty gorgeous and straight up human being Dutch,

837
00:43:24.480 --> 00:43:27.480
and she was in the studio. We wanted to do

838
00:43:27.519 --> 00:43:31.039
some extra things like like ad mum's Dutch apple tart recipe,

839
00:43:31.199 --> 00:43:33.679
you know, to the end of the book and there yet,

840
00:43:33.880 --> 00:43:35.599
yeah you haven't got you got that to look forward to.

841
00:43:35.679 --> 00:43:38.119
And I also wanted to, you know, just just to

842
00:43:38.159 --> 00:43:40.400
be sure that we were not leaving people with nowhere

843
00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:42.960
to go. I got my friend, doctor Charlotte Keating, who's

844
00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:45.360
a wonderful psychologist, to come and help me write a

845
00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:48.159
letter at the end to anyone who's still struggling or

846
00:43:48.159 --> 00:43:50.760
anyone who needs further resources. So I wanted to make

847
00:43:50.760 --> 00:43:52.960
sure that was all there. But we got my mom

848
00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:55.079
in to read the Dutch apple tart recipe, and while

849
00:43:55.239 --> 00:43:57.320
while she was there, I also got it to do

850
00:43:57.400 --> 00:44:02.079
the language warning at the top of the book and

851
00:44:02.800 --> 00:44:07.199
my master speaks like this, but she's anyway. It just

852
00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:09.239
cracked me up. It was very special to be able

853
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:11.079
to get her in there and give her a little

854
00:44:11.159 --> 00:44:14.159
roll to tell everyone that her daughter is a swear

855
00:44:14.199 --> 00:44:17.639
bear and you know, if you got kids around, maybe

856
00:44:18.280 --> 00:44:20.679
keep that in mind. But thank you so much, cause

857
00:44:20.679 --> 00:44:22.719
it's been a real honor and pleasure to be here.

858
00:44:22.760 --> 00:44:25.039
It's such a beautiful, beautiful thing that you're doing in

859
00:44:25.039 --> 00:44:28.119
the world. Thank you, Thank you, Claire. It has been

860
00:44:28.519 --> 00:44:30.039
my absolute privilege.

861
00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:33.639
Thank you so much for making the time and everybody

862
00:44:33.679 --> 00:44:34.599
go and get the book.

863
00:44:34.920 --> 00:44:35.639
Lots of love.

864
00:44:41.159 --> 00:44:43.400
Thank you so much for listening, and you guys, thank

865
00:44:43.400 --> 00:44:45.719
you so much. Also for the feedback I'm already getting

866
00:44:45.719 --> 00:44:48.960
on season four. Please keep it coming. I get lots

867
00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:51.239
of suggestions for topics that you would like me to cover.

868
00:44:51.519 --> 00:44:53.679
I do receive all of your emails and we do

869
00:44:53.800 --> 00:44:55.760
file them all and we will do our very best

870
00:44:55.760 --> 00:44:57.440
to cover the topics that are important to you.

871
00:44:58.079 --> 00:44:58.599
Don't forget.

872
00:44:58.599 --> 00:45:01.400
Also that my YouTube channel has launched. Thank you all

873
00:45:01.400 --> 00:45:04.400
for coming and subscribing. It's YouTube dot com Forward slash

874
00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:08.360
cast Done. I'll see you over there. If you like

875
00:45:08.480 --> 00:45:11.599
this show, please do go to Apple Podcasts and leave

876
00:45:11.679 --> 00:45:13.519
us a rating and a review. And of course I

877
00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:16.239
always love to hear your feedback directly. You can email

878
00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:19.239
me at hello at Caasdone dot com. I read all

879
00:45:19.239 --> 00:45:21.679
of the emails. I cannot wait to be back with

880
00:45:21.719 --> 00:45:25.840
another season. Crappy to Happy is presented by castdun produced

881
00:45:25.840 --> 00:45:28.880
by Davis Lenski, audio production by Darcy Thompson

882
00:45:32.360 --> 00:45:32.840
Listener