Breaking free from self-limiting beliefs with Maria Thattil

0:02 A listener production. Today, I want to introduce you to one of the most delightful human beings I've had the opportunity to meet on this show. She's smart, humble, kind, and she is passionate about using her voice to inspire others. Maria Fattila was propelled into the spotlight when she was crowned Miss Universe Australia in twenty twenty. She then went onto place in the top ten of the international competition in twenty twenty one, and was only the third woman of color to represent Australia in the pageant's sixty nine year history. Maria is the queer child of South Asian immigrants, and she grew up in suburban Melbourne, so she knows what it is like to struggle with belonging. She now is a fierce activist for social causes, and she uses her platform to champion critical social justice issues including anti racism, diversity inclusion, mental health, and jeni equality. Like I said, she is also a delight. She invited me for dinner at her house, and if I didn't live in London and she lives in Melbourne, I would have already taken her up on that.

1:10 I really think that. You are going to love Maria just as much as I do. Here is that conversation. Maria, Welcome to the Crappy to Happy Podcast. Thank you so much for having me. You've been just such a radiant ray of sunshine since I've just started chatting to you, so I'm very excited to be here. I'm thrilled to have you. I speak to the most interesting people on this show. I'm very fortunate, but I would have to say you are my first Miss Universe, so I'm feeling quite honored. Oh, I feel very very special being the first of Miss Universe on your podcast. Hope, Hope, I just make you very excited to speak to more Miss Universes after this. Indeed, I'm sure you will, so Maria on that, I guess you know, on the face of it, anybody looking at you publicly, you are obviously beautiful.

1:58 Miss Universe. Got into the top ten of the Missed Universe like globally is my understanding, right. You have now written a book. You are highly educated. You are like kicking goals in some you know, big spaces in the world. Anybody looking at you would just go wow, what an accomplished, confident young woman. But clearly it hasn't always been that way for you. You had to overcome your own internal obstacles to get to where you are now, which is the topic of your new book, Unbounded, And I was fascinated to read your story and really excited to talk to you about that. So can we just start with Maria? What was your experience like I guess, you know, growing up as a South Asian child of immigrants, suburban Melbourne, sort of one foot in each of two very different cultures.

2:49 How was that for you as a child. Yeah, well, I'll stop by saying that's a very generous, very very generous introduction to your audience, So thank you, Cass. I guess when I on the face of it, to be in miss universe Australia, that in itself is such a big deal as a South Asian child of immigrants, because you know, I grew up in the nineties and the very early two thousands, and so at the time diversity wasn't just celebrated, it was kind of only ever really seen through a lens of super toxic caricatures or exaggerated stereotypes. And so the way that I experienced the world was I'd go to school, and I so desperately wanted to fit in with my peers who were you know, if they were white, they were Aussie.

3:38 You know, that was it. But I'd go home and I was surrounded and immersed in really rich culture, from food, music, clothes, the accent and languages that my parents spoke. But to me, it felt like an anchor as a child, because it was like the thing that was stopping me from really fitting in with my peers. And so you go to school and the way that people interpret you is through your skin, and so at the time, approved from the Simpsons was probably the most prominent representation we had, so I would get everything from you know, okay, does your dad own a seven eleven? Does your mum with a red dot? Do they bob their heads when they talk? And that's how people understood you. And when you're a kid, you think, okay, something must be wrong with me, because otherwise people wouldn't be saying it. You know, you're a naive, trial like mind.

4:27 And I also internalized a lot of these sensibilities. So it made me think that in order to be Australian, I needed to shed my ethnicity, even though that makes me me that's my rich roots. But I thought, I've got to part ways with that if I want to belong and to fit in and be Australian enough. And so it really caused a divide between my family and I. When I was growing up, my cousins who are so close to stop speaking to them. I started, you know, bleaching my skin with products that, sadly to the day, is on the market, and it was all kinds of things like going blonde, wearing blue eye contacts. And at the time I didn't realize it, but I was trying to wear skin that wasn't mine because you know, growing up as a South Asian child of immigrants, you think that you need to be somebody else to be good enough.

5:18 And I think that message of being enough, I was bound to so many beliefs in other areas, like you know, to do a sexuality with faith, things like that. That just basically the underlying message was here's a blueprint. If you don't fit it, you ain't it. So that's what it was like. I think I spent a lot of time trying to chameleon myself into a lot of different spaces and it makes me really sad to look back on. But with the book, I wrote about it because I think there are going to be a lot of people who read it, and not just kids. I think adults and people will read it and they will give themselves permission to unbind themselves from those beliefs.

5:58 Well, you're talking about there, that whole if I'm this, I'm not enough is so like you said, for you, it was culture, there was sexuality. Obviously we haven't even talked about the fact that your dad was a former Catholic Norist and that whole. Like I mean, I went to Catholic school, and so I all that original sinner and you're just born as a sinner, and you know you spend your life trying to get over that. You would remember the chapter chapter two in the book. You remember something I said about prayers. How I was like, why are we saying this? Why am I saying? I'm a kid, you. Know, and reciting reciting the prayers, also not even knowing what the prayers really mean, which it's just auto pilot.

6:41 And I also on that I used to work a lot in well, not that you necessarily needed to work a lot in Asian countries, but I just used to travel back and forth to Japan, career, Taiwan, places like that in my twenties for my work, and I used to see that widening the skin, widening products like all over the shells always seemed to me, it just seemed like, how odd that all of the white girls so desperately worked brand and all of the brown girls apparently just liken't torturing themselves to try to be well. I think, you know, there's one thing, It doesn't matter where in the world you are, but skin tone is weaponized for social privilege, and within Asian communities and brown communities like ours, there's a phenomenon called colorism, where social privilege is allocated to those with fairer skin because you know, historically those with fairer skin. You know, India, for example, colonized, a lot of those communities colonized, so there were a lot of anglocentric ideas about beauty. And so when you come to countries like this, being darker typically has been associated with being able to holiday and this and that and the other. But also there's beauty standards which change all the time. You know, what's in vogue today won't be that tomorrow. And I just think the message for so many people always is if you do this, you'll be beautiful enough. If you do that, you'll be good enough, pure enough, this enough. And that's the whole point of this book. It's to get people to identify that and go, actually,

8:12 I'm not buying this and whatever I've got, that's enough. It's good enough, so I think. But it was only through these experiences that I was able to unpack and understand my own identity. Really, so I. Work with women across all ages and this concept, this whole sense of not being enough, like that for many people continues throughout their life live and are still struggling and you know, jumping through hoops and trying to fix themselves and change themselves in order to be enough, well into their forties, fifties and beyond. So it's actually quite impressive, Maria that you have come to like you have sort of unpacked this, and you really have really unpacked this and.

8:53 Work this out on your own at the age that you have. I'm curious to know what was the in the meantime, What were the things that you were doing or trying to do in order to overcome that not enoughness, Like what were some of the things or the paths that you went down in life to try to be enough to prove yourself. I can very distinctly pinpoint when it started changing for me in my twenties, and I really value your opinion, I think, your professional opinion, because I know you've read the book and so you know I have unpacked it, and so I think for me, you know, yes, it was years of I guess, subscribing to really really really self limiting beliefs based on racism and homophobia and a lot of religious dogma, a lot of it, and another things as well in terms of you know, I went to UNI, I did super well at UNI. You know, was then expected to oh, are you going to do a PhD? Are you going to do the corporate job?

9:57 And so the further along I started going down this path based on Okay, this is what people expect me to do and be the unhappier I was. And it was in twenty nineteen where I sort of hit a bit of a crossroads and I really think of this chapter in my life as being the turning point, which ironically was when everything fell apart. And this is where I hope if you're listening to this ironically or in the Crappy to Happy podcast, really really reevaluate and just open your mind up to thinking of that really crappy moment, because it could be the thing that changes everything. So I was twenty six years old. I was living with my then partner, who I have a lot of love and respect for till this day.

10:37 We are not together anymore, but he's a good man. It just didn't work out, and I was closeted and very confused, and I was very unhappy in my corporate job as well, and five figures in debt, like a lot of debt. I just had no financial literacy, no idea what I wanted to do, and I was constantly spending money on things to buy other people's pet of me. When we moved into this great apartment, Oh right, yep, I'll put the amazing marble coffee table on my credit card, just because I want people to look like I have it together right. And so that eventually just led me into a very bad financial place, and I just felt in my gut that it was time for the relationship to end. I felt it for a while, but got the courage and that ended, and I moved back home with my parents with debt and a job that I hated, and I literally moved into the corner room of their house that was so small that all it fit was my bed and a lambshade on the floor, and I had two of my brother's wardrobes in there. So my brother often jokes, you were sleeping in my wardrobe, and like, for me, it was just this point of what am I doing? However, I goten to this point what is next?

11:46 But one thing I was starting to do was create content online. And it wasn't a time when social media was a thing and people were getting paid all the time. It was just starting to come up. But I used to love putting out beauty content just for the fun of it. I just enrolled in makeup qualification and at the time I had also graduated from a master's degree with first class honors. And so while I was doing that makeup certification, a lot of people roll their eyes at me and they were like, oh, like, you're gonna be a makeup girl. Like what are you doing. You're at Melbourne UNI, why are you doing that sort of thing? And even my friends, you know, some of them didn't understand the posting content online. They thought it was vain or vapid, but for me it brought joy. Like I was creating all these creative makeup looks and I was just doing it, putting it out there, and slowly I started integrating messages about diversity and a lack of it in the beauty industry, and slowly, slowly it started to attract a community of people who were like, oh my god, me too. I haven't felt heard and that's what I think.

12:46 I'm so glad someone's saying it. And it was almost like social media was this place where I had I didn't need anyone's permission to say the thing or do the thing that made me happy. And the more I did it, the more I attracted it community. And suddenly I started to think, actually. Where can I push this? Where can I do this? And it was tough because a lot of people in my corporate job at the time kind of look down on it a little bit and it was a bit condescending. But I had a. Vision for it, albeit it wasn't as big as what I'm doing now. I just thought I can grow it and then when I have a platform, I can talk to people about these issues and how great would that be? So I think it was kind of having a space to slowly start doing my things safely, and when it started to just really like spark my soul. So I guess for anyone who's listening, and if you're a little bit lost and you're like, what do I do? Try everything, whether it's journaling, maybe you post something online, maybe you take a cooking class, and if it starts to spark joy, just follow it one foot in front of the other, just follow that thing and just be open to where it leads you. I didn't know my stuff would lead me here when I was doing MEKEU qualification. I want to be a beauty blogger back in the day, but here we are doing all this other stuff. So I think that's the power of following what sparks you.

14:02 I think there is so much in what you just said. First of all, you know, achieving at university, relationship that looks great on the outside, lovely apartment. I think many. People find themselves in exactly the same place that you found yourself. Mare Like, on the outside it all looks so amazing, amazing, such a shiny life. I've been there in my twenties, and it takes courage, like it really does take some courage to walk away from something that you know, people will look at you and go, well, what why, like what what's how can you not be how can you not be happy? And the other thing I guess is that you know, even putting stuff out online.

14:46 I mean, like you said, social media then perhaps wasn't what it is now, But in fact, what you're talking about is probably really the best of social media. Isn't it like that when it was really just green and everyone was. Positive and happy in community. Now everybody's just ripping each other away. It's a bit, it's evolved a little, but it wasn't nice the time, and it was like the era of like beauty tutorials and it was, but it's so true. It's like, and you're talking about courage, It's like, I know so many people have that where they're in the life that's comfortable and it's comfortable enough, right, Like it's comfortable enough. It's really freaking hard to walk away from a person you love and a life you are kind of like okay, I'm okay here, you know, for the unknown.

15:33 And it's really scary to put yourself out there on social media in a time when one or like to put yourself out there on any activity, especially if those around you are kind of going, what are you doing? Like this isn't you what are you doing? So I think it does take courage. But do you know what was scarier to me? I think this is what pushed me. And I think a lot of people like, maybe if you can not wait till it gets to this point, I think this is a really great tip. But for me, it just got to the point where I was starting to get so miserable that the misery was scarier to me than people judging me. Like I was so scared of looking back with regrets. I knew that the pain of regret was going to be so much worse than the fear of what if you know, what if I just try something different?

16:18 So I just had to change. Yeah, I had to. I was really unhappy. What led you to applying for Miss Universe? Well, truthfully, it was never something I thought I would do, just because I guess I had my own misconceptions about it, my own and my own internalized misogyny like let me just put my hand up and call myself out. My own internalized misogyny meant that I thought, oh, it's just a beauty pageant, and therefore I blanketed that perception to all the incredible women that go through it as well. And then the year before me, there was. A woman who won in twenty nineteen, an Indian Australian lawyer named Pria Serrau. She was Miss Universe Australia. And so when I saw one, an Indian woman to a lawyer, I was like, like, oh my god, maybe I could do it, you know, because at that point she was only the second woman of color to represent Australia in the pageant's sixty eight year history. I was the third.

17:10 I was the third and sixty nine years. So when I saw her do it, because she was something different, it made me kind of go, well, maybe I could do it differently too, and maybe I can make people think, you know, differently about it. And there were people in my job I remember when I was a finalist who sort of said your pastor remarks like. But you're a feminist, you're smart, why are you doing it? My answer to them is, if you look at how much impact I'm having in my career now versus when I was in a corporate job, That's my answer. I did it because I knew, actually, I can take something with patriarchal roots and maximize it to serve this purpose of serving. Others and impacting others.

17:50 And so it was a no brainer for me because you know what, back then and even to this day, no one is you know, in twenty nineteen, no one was running to give a woman of color or anything like that, to give her a platform like that and say you you're going to be an author, a TV presenter, big on social media, you're going to go into acting. Have you seen people like me on magazine covers often and doing all the things that I'm doing. It's like no one's rushing to hand the stuff out. So for me, if I see an opportunity, I'm going to take it and I'm going to run with it. So that's what Miss Universe was to me. Thank you, That's what Miss Universe was. And that's what you know, a lot of people will roll their eyes at young women or men who go on reality shows, but look at someone like Abby Chadfield who went on the Bachelor, But look at what she does now. So I think again, it's that step away from that judgment. Don't judge yourself don't judge others, don't judge platforms, and.

18:46 When you're open minded, you never know what will happen. So true, and I think people still, you know, I think about Abby Chatfield and the work that she's doing and the career that she has, and there are still people who judge it. And I think that again, it reflects so much more on the people doing the judging. Yeah. No, it was like oh yeah, yeah, definitely, yes, oh yeah. There wasn't really a question in that. Wow. I'm like, you could not have said a truer statement. How did your life change then, Maria? I mean you won and oh you won in the middle of a pandemic like we were in lockdown, you were in Melbourne.

19:29 I wasn't quening for you because let me tell you, it wasn't a good time down here. No Queensland. We're pretty tough with the borders. But we managed within Queensland. We actually, you know, we were fine. We were living life as usual. All the sympathy to you guys down in Melbourne. But you you went through miss Universe during. Lockdown and you know what, guys, the full scoop is in the book. But I will tell you this, having Miss Universe to sort of strive for in lockdown, and also let's not ignore the pre Yes, I was in Melbourne and it was the most lockdown place, but I had the privilege of all of my loved ones were healthy and nobody I knew passed. Away or got sick.

20:10 We all kept our jobs, and I think there are a lot of people who were faring a lot worse. But for me, I just felt very grateful to have Miss Universe as my motivator because my competition was pushed back till October twenty eighth of that year, and so the night I won Miss Universe Australia, it was actually only twenty four hours that we had been out of the big lockdown, So I literally came out of lockdown the next day went to the final and it's like you almost the Uniforst Australia, but it was. It was really tough because I was competing virtually, so I literally was at home in the corner room, mom, dad, my dog, my brother at home, couldn't go to the gym, couldn't get my.

20:51 Hair done in the corner, in the corner room to. Your parents, and so you know what I did, though, I took the circumstances. I'm like, right, well, I can't go to events like the other girls in other states. I'll get my hair downe go to the gym, do the whole glam thing. I'm just going to show them what they would get if they picked me. And so I just I shared my family a lot because we're very close, and my dad was in my content, like you know, my dad and I did our walks together. I did a social media series online every week where I created a space where I'd jump on live and chat to people about social political issues, current affairs, and heaps of people joining that series got like hundreds of thousands of views, and it was just using the resources at hand. You know. It was like, right, I don't have everything, but I'm just going to show them I'm a resourceful woman. I will do what I can with it. And it ended up being enough because I think they saw the impact and the drive, so it's like, wow, what would she do if she had everything at her disposal? So safe to say it went pretty well and I'm very grateful that night changed my life.

21:51 Yeah, So, like what happens after you win a miss Universe? Like what happens then you have this platform for well a year, right while you hold the title. Technically, so that you almost en AFSUS Australia for a year. But I'll tell you, like pageant culture all over the world, it's different in different countries. So like Philippines, India it is like their national sport, like it is a big deal, like you have a million followers overnight, hundreds of thousands of dollars invested big teams, whereas Australia it's a little bit more chill. We don't really care about pageants over here. So what I want, Like, I don't even think I had a morning show interview or anything. I don't think anyone even knew. I think there were a lot of headlines because I was different, and so they were like, wow, look at this person who's won of Australia. But I had about eight months and you know, the directors, I think they're so funny.

22:36 They were like, we weren't prepared for you because you run before you can walk. But I was like, I sent a massive email the day after and I said, guys, I want to make the most of this platform. These are all the TV the TV networks that I want to be on the shows I want to be on magazine interviews. I want to give the topics I want to speak on, because ultimately, beyond just trying to campaign for Miss Universe, won a really long lasting career in media and advocacy. So I sent them this huge email and they're like, you need to slow down. I'm like, absolutely not. And then I just assembled a team because they were in per so they helped me where they could. But I ended up assembling a team of friends who to this day a my creatives, photographers, videographers, stylist, and I literally like wrote and directed and produced my own little mini film for Miss Universe. We did all this, you know, incredible campaigning around inclusivity. Ended up doing like fourteen morning show interviews that year, and it was kind of the first time in a while that you saw in Miss Universe on TV.

23:37 So often, like Australia kind of just dropped their interest for a little while. So we just worked really hard at it, and then I went to Miss Universe, so I had to have coaching on my walk. That's probably the most pageanty, I guess thing that I did, because let me tell you, I couldn't walk and there really is an art to it, and I love it because now it's not just like walking sexy a way, which is what people might think. It's how to walk with confidence in your body. And that's a skill that I take into every room and every meeting I walk into now. And so I had four days of walk coaching. A couple of them were on a few of them were on FaceTime. And the first time I ever walked on a stage was at the Global Miss Universe competition and I was like baptism by fire, here we go.

24:25 So it was fun. I just took every moment and it was great. I think there is such an important lesson in that marine in that you can, you know, win the biggest beauty pageant in Australia, but nothing gets handed to you like you at some point if you want to make a change, you've got to harness that opportunity. Like as an individual, I think there's probably many people who just assume, you know, when you have a podcast or you write a book or you know, but you've actually got to harness that opportunity and take the lead in your own career, like drive your own. One hundred percent. And I think you know, if there are any Miss Universe hopefuls or anything like that. Listening, I get a lot of those women messaging me and they're like, you know, how did you end up having such a fruitful career?

25:07 And it's like, because every single opportunity was worked for the book, the TV show, the presenting gigs, like nothing is handed to you, even as a Miss Universe or whatever. And I think in your career, same as you like with your podcast, you you know, reach out to incredible guests. You're the one doing the research and making it as good as it is. I think in life, if you ever get relaxed and start to expect things to come to you, that's. When things will change. And I do think when you take that initiative and drive in your own career and in your. Life, it's going to be incredible. You know it's and it has to be that way for that Yet, I don't think anyone hands you anything in life.

25:50 I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe so that you get notified when you epps drop and head on over to Apple podcasts or wherever you listen and leave us a rating and review. The world will push us towards doing the things that look good, you know. And it's about the money and the Instagram followers and the success and the public platform. How have you. Or guess what practices do you have or what do you do in life?

26:30 I guess to keep you. Coming back to what is important to you because you're so values driven, how do you stay true to, you know, what really matters to you as opposed to being pulled away and distracted by all of that other glamorous, you know things. Yeah, that is the best question because cass I had a really big moment with that last year. So I think in the last year in particular, a lot has changed in my career. In that the book, there's been a lot more TV opportunities they'll be acting coming up, which is exciting and it's like. Okay, how amazing, Like you're chasing all this stuff.

27:13 And I had this moment and you will so be able to pick my brain about this because psychologist, I had this moment of suddenly like I've always been a high achiever and very you know, passionate about doing things that I you know, just kicking goals and challenging myself. But I started to all of a sudden go, Okay, what's next, what's next, what's next? And suddenly I was so focused on chasing what's next that I was starting to lose Hang on a minute, why are you doing all of this in the first place, And also what is the impact you're trying to have? What is it actually serving? And when you're constantly chasing what's next because you're worried about how it looks, you know, like people are worried about a beautifully curated Instagram feed, Like these achievements are like a beautifully curated highlight, all right.

28:00 And I felt like I lost myself for a minute. And so the way I really come back to it is one I see a great therapist to talk through a lot of the pressures of a very fast paced and changing career. Because I'm very aware that the kind of growth I've had in two years is not normal. It's a lot for any person. So I am seeing a therapist and I got home, switch off and hang out with my mom, dad, my dog, my brother, eat my mom's home cooked food, and I talk to my parents because they keep me grounded. They remind me. Of where I come from. They remind me of why I chose this career in the first place. My dad always says, leave your footprint, and suddenly I've got perspective again.

28:41 And my Grandma. I pray to my grandma, so she's now my late grandma, big Mama, who passed last year, and I know she's looking out for me, but she always wanted. She was always very proud of me because of what I was doing and the why behind it. So I think just being really close to these people who were remind me me, darling, like the shiny things. Are not you. They're not even you don't even want them. So just remember that in the fast pace of it all, it's about, you know, just even that one person messaging you and saying, oh what you said or wrote or did it changed my life in this way. That's why you do it. So and I've got a beautiful partner now who just keeps me just so grounded and reminds me of why I do what I do and what that means to people.

29:28 So I'm very blessed in that way to have good people around me. It did occur to me while I was reading your book, Maria, that I've actually just every other week I record a solo episode of the podcast and I talk about ideas in psychology that are relevant to people. And I just recorded a solo episode on attachment theory and you know, secure versus insecure attachment. And as I was reading your book, and you know, reading about the challenges that you had overcome in terms of belonging and religious and upbringing and sexuality, and I think, well, you know, the one thing that you it seems like you've really got is that secure attachment, that groundedness in a family that, regardless.

30:09 Of how challenging it might have been, having that. Cultural kind of segregation between your Asian culture and your Australian culture, that constant message from your parents that you have that intrinsic self worth. You know, like we all struggle, we all have confidence issues, but you've got would you agree, that core kind of sense of being supported, that they're there for you. Yeah. My best friend, I remember one time, my best friend of twelve years, she would all sleep over my house when we were you know, sixteen seventeen. I remember one day my dad, he used to always do this and when I was a teenager, I was like, Dad, my friends are over, like, come on, you know. But he sat on the edge of my bed and he would come and talk to me, and it always has something why to say. He's like, he's like my mentor, right, so it's sit on there to the bed and be like, do things with purpose beta beta. In our culture, it means like darling my sweet child, So do things with purpose and in servers beta like, he'd say things like that.

31:15 I remember one day he had a chat like that with my best friend and I. He got up and he left, and she had tears in her eyes, and I'm like, oh my god. I'm like, was my dad really annoying? Like what was it? Like, I'm sorry, and she said no, Like I don't think you realize how lucky you are to have that. And I realized why you're so confident, it's because he's your inner voice. And so my mom and dad from when I was little, even ten years old, I have memories of my dad scooping me up in his arms and saying, you're wives beyond your years. What do you want to do with your life? You can do it? Like I've constantly had that even with our own troubled family dynamics. At times everyone has that or like cultural issues. It was like that's a buffer that's always been there to be like, don't go too far, don't lose yourself too much. So I'm very lucky to have I'm very lucky.

32:03 Yes, the sound amazing. I wanted to grow up in your family when I was reading about. That sounds so fun. Yeah, music and the food in Bite you over for a party, Puss, you love that. I live in London now. It's a long way for me to get to Melbourne. Otherwise I would be there when you and when you and Georgia come to London, then you can have me. Over, will come and visit? Yes, you, we've alluded to the whole sexuality thing for a bit. So your your brother is gay, right, Dominic's gay. You had only ever dated men, but you knew that there was an interest there in women.

32:45 How how was it for you? Was was there a fear there? I guess about coming out like having a relationship with a woman, which you now do openly are in a wonderful, supportive relationship with your partner. How scary for you if it was to do that? Publicly. I think it wasn't scary to do it publicly. I was a little bit nervous, you know, interestingly, even that my parents were so supportive, I was a little bit nervous when I first introduced George to them, and not because I didn't think they would love her, but because it was the first time one they've only really ever met two of my partners, a high school sweetheart and my one really long term relationship. And I was a really good man, and so I'm like, Okay, this is the first time they're meeting a woman that I'm in a relationship with. They loved her, My dog loved her.

33:32 Everyone loved her. So when I came went out publicly with her, I wasn't nervous. It was more just like, oh my god, I'm so excited for the world to see this incredible person because she is like I've never met anyone like her. And when I was younger, I don't even think it was a fear of being in a relationship with the girl. It's actually worse than that. It's even more primitive than that. When I was growing up, I did not understand sxuality beyond being straight or gay, and so when I had these feelings like crushes on my peers and you know, making out with my girlfriends at parties, I was like, well, I'm not gay, You're still like guys, so this is obviously just it's nothing.

34:14 It must be nothing. But then the nothing was like a more and more and more curious inkling as I got older. So it was even worse because the lack of visibility and education, and we didn't speak about it at home or in religious circles. I was in that lack. Of education altogether meant I didn't even understand it. So I wasn't just afraid. I was like, oh, this is nothing. It's clearly not nothing. So here we are. So it's very nice to be in a place where I guess I'm just happy. I lived my life very publicly. Obviously, George and I protect a lot about our relationship, but it's very nice to know that, you know, there's going to be a queer kid, and you know, even better, like a queer South Asian kid who'll pick up say Stellar magazine from January that and see us on the cover and go, oh my god. You know, like that's okay and that exists and that's fine. Or they'll read the book and be like, I resonate with that, you know.

35:10 Or I went through that. Even if you're forty fifty sixty and you're you're closeted and figuring it out, I'm sure you'll resonate with something I've written in that chapter on sexuality, because I feel like we're only very recently getting to a place where we're celebrating and celebrating and celebrating the community, and there's still a long way to go. So how was it having those religious messages about you know, sex, we all had them, sex before marriage and homosexualities are seeing your dad was a former Catholic priest. Now obviously he left the church, but he is still Catholic. Right, your parents were still very religious as you were growing up. Yeah, they're obviously, as you said, very supportive of you. They're very very supportive net well now like now they understand everything.

35:53 They Yeah, and I guess and this might have to have to wrap this up in a minute, Marie, But many people who have that religious upbringing ultimately reject religion because they can't live a life that is in complete contradiction to the teachings of some of those very traditional religions. How have you come to find your own? You're still a spiritual person, So what's your kind of concept of God or spirituality? Now? Yeah, I think I understand why a lot of people completely turn away. I think for me when it comes to religion, yes, there are certain hypocrisies and things that don't make sense to me that I cannot align myself with.

36:33 But in the book, just as I do with how I talk about, say, certain family experiences, I can appreciate the good in some of my religious upbringing, like the values for community and love one another, even if it's not practice that way. But I appreciate those values. But I do not subscribe to any organized religion, just as I've said, for example, I have had experiences with intergeneration or trauma, but it doesn't mean that my entire childhood, upbringing and family experiences were bad things, can you know, mutually exist? So I think for religion the way I like to you know, that's not something I subscribe to. But I believe that religion is a vehicle that humans have tried to make ancient spiritual knowledge, you know, digestible through and so for me, I think it's just bigger than that, and I in the book, I won't give away too much, but I talk about it from a mathematical perspective, which is rich for me because I hate maths.

37:26 But I talk about a concept called fractals because fundamentally, I believe we're all energy and we're all interconnected, and so we are connected to everything that is, everything that ever was, and each other. And so I think when you live with that philosophy and you know that you are connected to literally the fabric of the universe, the source of everything that is, you know you're powerful and you won't just see the divinity in yourself, you'll see it in other people. And that then is your philosophy for how you should treat other peop people. So I'm definitely spiritual in that way. I believe that I am connected to something bigger and to connect it to other people and other things. And you know, I still talk to my grandma, and so that's where I'm at now.

38:15 I like to practice a lot of the values of forgiveness and love and non judgment and things like that. But yeah, no religion for me, but I look back on certain parts of it fondly. Yeah, I love that Maria congratulations on everything that you have achieved. I will say for anybody who is interested in the book, it is a great book, and it is really a not just your story, but it is a tool that anybody who picks it up can use to reflect on themselves and their own story and their own journey. Like there is so much kind of at the risk of saying, you know, self helpy kind of in there, Like it's inspiring, and it's what I love most, I think is the practicality of it, you know, like, Okay, now you go and ask us off these questions. Yeah, go on, journal on this, you go and reflect on this.

39:03 So I think it really is. It's a really valuable resource for anybody, apart from being obviously really interesting stories. So congratulations. Thank you so much for being here today. That was so generous. It literally fills my heart with so much joy. What I hear people describing what they think of the book, and especially you ca as I respect you and your work and your expertise so much. That means the world to me. Thank you for having me, and thank you to everybody for listening. Maria's brand new book, Unbounded, is available right now in all bookstores You can find out more about Maria at her website Maria. At theatill dot com. She's Maria Fatil on all social media platforms. If you love crapy or Happy. If you enjoyed this conversation, please.

39:46 Do give us a rating and review. Please clickly follow. Button on whatever podcast platform you use. Obviously come and connect with me. I'm on Instagram Cast done, underscore xo, facebookcast done dot XO, and I can't wait to catch you next week on another episode of Crappy to Happy Listener