May 30, 2021

Breaking the Trauma Loop with Sarah Woodhouse

Breaking the Trauma Loop with Sarah Woodhouse
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Breaking the Trauma Loop with Sarah Woodhouse
Breaking the Trauma Loop with Sarah Woodhouse
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Season 6 Psychology & Neuroscience Personal Growth & Healing

What causes trauma and how can we release it? Trauma expert, Sarah Woodhouse talks with Cass Dunn about how both big and “little” traumatic experiences can leave us trapped in cycles of dysfunctional behaviours, negative thoughts and difficult feelings. When you’re able to recognise your own, and other people’s trauma responses, you’re better able to interrupt those old patterns, reawaken your true self and reclaim your future.Buy Sarah's book You’re Not Broken here: https://tinyurl.com/3vc4jttv
www.sarahwoodhouse.cominstagram.com/thesarahwoodhousefacebook.com/thesarahwoodhouse
Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypodwww.tiktok.com/crappytohappypod
Join the free 7-day Happiness Challenge:www.cassdunn.com/happiness

Connect with Cass:

www.cassdunn.com
www.instagram.com/cassdunn_xo

Contact Crappy to Happy:

Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
www.crappytohappypod.com
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypod
www.tiktok.com/@crappytohappypod


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Transcript
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A listener production. This is Crappy to Happy and I'm

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your host, Cas Doun. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist,

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a mindfulness meditation teacher, and author of the Crappy to

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Happy books. In this show, I bring you conversations with interesting,

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inspiring and intelligent people who are experts in their field

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and who have something of value to share that will

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help you feel less crappy and more happy. Today, I'm

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talking with Sarah Woodhouse, who is a research psychologist originally

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from the UK but now living right here in Australia.

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Sarah specializes in trauma and she's passionate about helping people

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to better understand what trauma is and it might not

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be what you think it is, and encouraging us to

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be less afraid of looking at and acknowledging all of

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the things in our lives that might have caused a

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trauma response in us. She teaches us how to recognize

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when we get stuck in trauma loops so that we

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can break free from those old, unhelpful patterns that we

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often fall into and look, pretty much every one of

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us has had experiences during our lifetime that have created

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emotional injuries. And I know that what Sarah has to

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share will help you to better understand yourself or someone

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else close to you, and that can only be a

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good thing. Here is my chat with Sarah. Sarah, thank

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you so much for joining me today on the Crappy

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to Happy podcast. So lovely to have you here.

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I'm super happy to be with you. Thank you so

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much for inviting me on, Sarah.

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I was really intrigued when I saw your book come out,

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and we will talk more about that. It's called You're

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Not Broken, and this is a book that is about trauma.

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And I think that what's happening at the moment is

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we're having a lot more conversations around trauma, which is

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really exciting to me and really broadening our definition and

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our understanding of what trauma is. Which is why I'm

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so thrilled to see your book and your contribution to

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that conversation. So can we start with what is trauma?

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Yeah? Absolutely, it's the great It is the right place

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to start, isn't it. The definition I find most people

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sort of resonate with and can confine their way with

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is that trauma is a reaction to any experience, and

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that's really important. It's any experience that makes us feel overwhelmed, threatened,

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and out of control. And it's an important definition because

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of that any experience. So of course, you know, when

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we say trauma, we think of those big severe events,

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don't we year, bushfires, floods, assaults, whatever it might be.

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But it also draws attention to the fact that there

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are all of these other, more commonplace, everyday experiences that

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we've learned now can also lead to us feeling overwhelmed, threatened,

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and out of control. So it draws attention to particularly

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that's things in relationships, in the parental relationship in particular,

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but everyday experiences, you know, slips and falls, routine medical procedures,

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and really anything in childhood. You know. That's what we've learned,

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is that it's very easy for a child to feel overwhelmed, threatened,

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and out of control. So it's easy for them to

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kind of that fight flight freeze response to switch on.

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Yeah, and I think that's the key, isn't it. For

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so long you and I both trained in psychology, and

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for so long, trauma was considered to be those major

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kind of single events or the really the huge catastrophic events,

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and which means that so many people write themselves out

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of that definition. That will nothing like that ever happened

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to me. Therefore, I can't say that I've experienced trauma.

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But when you broaden that definition, like you said, to

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anything that might make you feel was overwhelmed, powerless, threat

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and out of threat, threatened and out of control or

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out of control. Yeah, then suddenly a whole lot of

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people can see themselves in that definition. We still do

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talk about sometimes and I hear out their reference to

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big T and little T trauma or big T and

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other T trauma. Are you able to help us understand

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what their distinction is for anybody listening.

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Yeah, Big T traumas are the types of trauma that

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we've always traditionally considered when we say the word trauma,

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you know, they're the big severe experiences. And of course

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trauma is traumatic experiences at least do happen on a spectrum,

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don't they We would all agree that some events are

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more severe than others. You know, of course that is

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just true. We understand that, you know that that's the

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nature of it. So when we say big T trauma,

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we're talking about those kind of events that have traditionally

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pretty much always been acknowledged as leading to a traumatic reaction,

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and that list grew. It used to really primarily only

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be you know, we we recognized war, we recognized a

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soult rape, you know that those things, and slowly the

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list has got bigger. And that's the list we're referring to.

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And then little TA traumas or in the book, as

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you said, I call them, other TA traumas are everything else.

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Because you know, I think you said you don't tend

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to work clinically anymore. But if you speak to any

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clinical psychologist, any therapist, any counselor they have known for

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a very very long time that there's the big TA

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trauma list and there's all of this stuff over here

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that can also lead to a traumatic reaction. So really

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the reason I don't use little T is because I

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think it's quite stigmatizing. It makes us think that these

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things are somehow important and these things aren't. It's quite dismissive.

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Almost it was a little experience, which absolutely isn't true.

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It's not the case at all. As you would know,

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if you've ever worked with anyone that's experienced, say, relational trauma,

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you know it has a huge and profound impact and

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is now recognized through the ICD ten, which is you know,

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most recently put in CPTSD complex post traumatic stress disorder

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in recognition of how damaging relational trauma can be, not

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typically on the Big T traumal list, but most definitely

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a trauma. So I don't use the little trauma s SOD,

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I say, other T traumas, because I think it draws

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attention to the fact that really it's anything else, and

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the list is growing, and it's not even a list.

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Anything any experience that can lead to that reaction is

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over here, and that's really one of the main messages

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in the book.

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And you actually in the book, I noticed that you

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refer to I think seventy to ninety percent of people

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have experienced some kind of trauma, So it's basically all

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of us.

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It's basically all of us. Although interestingly that stat is

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based on this is a tricky thing in research. That

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statistic is of course based on the Big T trauma,

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So that's just based on the ones that we have

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always traditionally understood. So when you begin looking over here,

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I think it's very very very safe and very obvious

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to say that all of us have in one way

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or another experience to traumatic reaction, and that doesn't mean

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that everyone is still stuck in it. That's absolutely not

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what I'm saying. The traumatic reaction resolves at a different

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time and a different speed in all of us. For

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some of us, we might have experienced the traumatic reaction

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and it have lasted a couple of weeks, you know,

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six weeks, four weeks, whatever it might have been, whereas others,

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of course we're recognizing, are still stuck within that reaction

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ten twenty thirty years later.

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You talk a lot about traumatic reactions, and I think

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this is key too. So it's not necessarily the experience,

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it's your response to the experience. So the same event, therefore,

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can bring about a different response in different people. I

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think that's really critical too, isn't it. Yeah, individual events

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or series of events will affect different people in different ways.

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So can you tell me when you refer to traumatic reactions,

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what sort of things are you talking about?

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Well, there's the initial reaction, but when we scan forward

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the traumatic reaction. The way I tell people to look

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at it is there's a reaction in the mind, in

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the body, and in the behavior and in our behaviors.

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So you're going to see the reaction popping up in

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all three, and they're all linked. They kind of happen

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in a cycle. But if you take the kind of

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the physical and emotional reaction, which is where it starts,

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right because I use the words overwhelmed, threatened, and out

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of control, but really what's happening underneath is that our

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fight flight freeze survival response has been triggered. So it's

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a very physical reaction and of course emotional along with that.

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But the physical and the emotional are essentially the same

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thing or essential that fight flight freeze reaction and the

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things we'd be looking for there. So physically it's you know,

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it can be anything sort of often feeling shame, often

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feeling kind of stuck in a feeling that might be shame,

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that might be anger. It's anxiety like symptoms for an

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awful lot of people. And I say anxiety likes. It's

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not specifically anxiety, but it's anxiety likes symptoms. And we

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all know, you know, you know, of course we've all

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experienced anxiety. We all know what that feels like. So

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if you're experiencing them daily, weekly, whatever it may be,

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then I would be saying, okay, perhaps there's something going

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on within your nervous system and that you are potentially

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dysregulated and almost stuck within that fight flight freeze response,

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and that's why you're kind of permanently anxious. Essentially, there's

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so a strong startle response is a really big one

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you often see that I can relate to that absolutely.

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Then there's all the cognitive stuff as well, So I

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think often this is missed but because it doesn't make

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too much sense to people. But low self belief and

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low self esteem are a big, big, big red flag,

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and there are lots of kind of complicated reasons that

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develops over time. But if people are kind of like, well,

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how do I know if I've got trauma, I'd say, well,

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that's a big one to look out for. If you

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do have and have often struggled with self belief and

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self esteem, confidence, all those things, they're often a sign

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of trauma, particularly if they're coupled with the other reactions,

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a really big one that you see in really, I

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would say the majority of people. So if you imagine,

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when the fight flight freeze response goes off, your body

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is flooded with hormones, and that's what's making those anxiety

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like symptoms and the uncomfortable feelings and the feelings of

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fear and anything else you might be feeling. It's all

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hormone driven. It's all to do with those arousal hormones

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or the shut down hormones. If it's freeze, it's not

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just your body that's flooded, it's your mind as well.

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So if you are continually or often experiencing very racing thoughts,

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you know, obsessive worries, obsessive fears, you know, when your

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mind just spins and spins and spins, that's off very

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often a sign that your survival mechanism has been triggered.

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You're not feeling safe, something in your environment has made

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you feel threatened or reminded you of a past threat,

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and all these hormones have kind of flooded your body.

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So it's important to understand that it's not just those

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anxiety like symptoms in the body. We're going to experience

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them cognitively as well. And then there are the behaviors.

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Most people that have experienced trauma have some kind of

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avoidant behavior because we respond to to whichever symptom is

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we're feeling, we push it away. That's the nature of trauma.

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We push the feeling away because it's overwhelming and it's

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a bit scary, and we most certainly don't want trauma,

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so we push it away instead of doing what we

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need to do really, which is looking in the eyes

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and taking some time to see it, you know, and

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sitting with our body and our mind and really seeing

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what's happening. So on the small end of the scale,

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it might be something like compulsive distraction, you know, constantly

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checking your phone because you're feeling these anxiety like symptoms

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or what's going on in your mind, whatever it might be,

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and you don't like it. You want to move away

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from it, so you grab your phone, compulsive TV watching,

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compulsive spending. And then of course at the top end

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of that's kind of avoidance scale, you've got full on

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addictions and alcoholism and things like that. They're the symptoms

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that I tend to talk about because really, here what

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I'm trying to do is help people who don't necessarily

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have PTSD, but who have the lower level symptoms. But

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of course then if we look at the PTSD symptoms,

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you're going to also potentially be experiencing severe flashbacks and

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symptoms like that.

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Interesting that you talk about the avoidance and the wanting

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to push it away. I think you can't talk about

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trauma without also talking about shame, and nobody wants to

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talk about shame. You do refer to that link in

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your book as well. Can you talk a little bit

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about that. I think that shame is this like Brene

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Brown obviously has done all of the work around shame

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and vulnerability, and she says it's a universal experience, but

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it's still one that nobody wants to really acknowledge or

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look at. Are you able to talk a little bit

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more about that about the trauma shame kind of link.

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Yeah, very happily. It's so important because there is a

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huge link you know before shame most often sits a

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traumatic experience. That that link has been proven. It's in

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every single model of trauma, or the vast majority of

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them shame. Shame is there because we know that it's

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ubiquitous if you've experienced trauma. One of the mechanisms that

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will keep the symptoms going and keep you stuck in

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the reaction is shame. And what's that about. I mean,

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it can be very unique, you know, in terms of

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what we each feel shame about. But I think that

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the main thing that I feel people need to understand

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is that very often we feel shame about having had

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the emotions and having had the reaction. Does that make sense?

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So it's the shame is almost coming from the belief

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around it is I'm weak. I shouldn't be feeling these things.

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So emotionally, we're already avoiding, we're pulling back, and not

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only that, but we're also feeling deeply as shamed that

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we weren't stronger. And that's why we need these convers stations.

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We need to teach our kids. It's highly like you'd

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highly likely, if not an absolute given, that you're going

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to experience a traumatic reaction. There is no shame in that,

255
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you know, if we bring the conversation about trauma into

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the public space, as we did with anxiety, I don't

257
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I suffer anxiety sometimes I have no shame around it

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because it's part of the public conversation. Now I meet

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another mum or a dad or whatever, we'll often say, oh,

260
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I'm feeling a bit anxious today. It's it's a lingo

261
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that we're all really comfortable with now. And my dearest

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hope is that is that we get as comfortable with trauma.

263
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And I know it will take a while because it's

264
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a complicated thing, but that in itself will help undo

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and pull back some of that shame response, you know,

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and there are other things going on. Too often the

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shame will come from not having our feelings validated, and

268
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which is another reason we all need to get up

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to speed with this, because if somebody experience this is

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a traumatic reaction, one of the worst things that we

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can do is invalidate it, you know, not accept it,

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essentially say come on, it wasn't that bad, don't worry

273
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about it, get on with it. If the reaction happened,

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it needs to be witnessed. It needs our loved ones,

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our friends, whoever it might be, to say, Okay, I

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see it, I get it, you're you know. It's not

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a conversation even about the event. It's a conversation about

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the reaction. It's an acknowledgment of the reaction. And without

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that we can end up feeling deep shame because our

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feelings weren't validated.

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Yeah, and it's kind of at its core, I think,

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especially when we talk about childhood trauma, and you mentioned

283
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before relational trauma and I would like to get to

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just some of those definitions, but it's sort of got

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this core of unworthiness, doesn't it Like if as a

286
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child you've experienced trauma ahead your feelings invalidated. It's this

287
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internalized belief that there is something wrong with me, or

288
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I'm somehow unlovable or unworthy, and without even that registering

289
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at a conscious level, it's kind of embedded somewhere deep

290
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in our psyche. Would you agree?

291
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One hundred percent? And that's part of the reason that

292
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we see you know, I mentioned low self belief as

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one of the cognitive reactions, one of the symptoms we

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would expect to see. It links to that shame based

295
00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:27.079
self that we will develop along the way. Yeah.

296
00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:32.039
Absolutely, And when we talk about those attachment relationships, you know,

297
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those very early experiences that sometimes we don't even remember.

298
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You know, we have these early experiences that we as

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infants and as young children that we don't often have

300
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a conscious memory of. But along the way we've internalized

301
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these ideas, as you said, like this unworthiness or this shame.

302
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And this is why I think it's so perplexing to

303
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people because a lot of people can't necessarily put their

304
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finger on a specific event or you know, something concrete

305
00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:08.160
that they can track it back to. And this is

306
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why so many people feel like, well, this, it's obviously

307
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just me. There is something wrong with me.

308
00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:19.759
Absolutely, that's exactly the path. That's exactly why there must

309
00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:22.359
be something wrong with me, you know. And that's why

310
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I called the book What I Did. You're not broken,

311
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because the vast majority of people I speak, and I'm

312
00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:30.400
sure as a psychologist you can attest the same, feel

313
00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:33.039
like they're fundamentally damaged. There's something wrong with me. I'm

314
00:18:33.079 --> 00:18:37.559
broken without realizing. It's the trauma talking. It's the trauma

315
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that has led you and pushed you and pushed you

316
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to adopt this identity. And it's freeing realizing that because

317
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once we know what the problem is, we can begin

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to treat it, because it's very treatable once we know

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what it is.

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I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the

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benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are

322
00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:04.079
enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe

323
00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:06.440
so that you get notified when you apps drop and

324
00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:08.960
head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen

325
00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:18.200
and leave us a rating and review. So getting back

326
00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:20.640
to that, you know, you've used the word relational trauma

327
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a few times, and I just mentioned about attachment just

328
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for people listening who kind of going, what are you

329
00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:27.960
talking about? Can are you able to just run through

330
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what some of those kinds of trauma are that we

331
00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:34.319
talk about in psychology or in the research or whatever.

332
00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:38.039
Yes, I mean, essentially the best thing is just to

333
00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:41.839
replace the word relational with relationship. You know, it's really

334
00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:48.480
any traumatic event that happens within the relation relationship context,

335
00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:52.480
and very often we're looking at the parental relationship. I

336
00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:54.440
don't know, would you agree with that that in your

337
00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:59.519
practice we can primarily see exactly so really we say relational,

338
00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:02.400
but I don't know why we don't just say parental.

339
00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:04.839
It's interesting, isn't it? Because it is the majority of

340
00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:07.720
them that I think we're facing, and that most people face,

341
00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:10.279
and they can show up in all kinds of ways.

342
00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:13.680
What have you seen in your practice? I'm really interested?

343
00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:17.720
Oh well, I guess you know, in terms of early

344
00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:22.319
attachment relationships, I think so many people come into therapy

345
00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:26.519
with their anxiety or their depression, or their adult you know,

346
00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:31.240
relationship struggles and as psychologists. We go into your personal

347
00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:33.640
history and tell us about your family growing up, and

348
00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:41.519
often there was like you said, and invalidation of emotions

349
00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:45.400
or in my family, we just didn't talk about your feelings.

350
00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:50.880
Oftentimes there might have been you know, alcohol or you know,

351
00:20:50.920 --> 00:20:55.319
domestic violence or you know, other issues like that. So

352
00:20:55.480 --> 00:20:58.279
even people who don't again, don't put themselves in that

353
00:20:58.359 --> 00:21:00.240
category of like I didn't. I wasn't a bit used

354
00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:02.160
as a child, and I wasn't neglected, and I had

355
00:21:02.279 --> 00:21:05.319
two parents at home, but you know, mum was never

356
00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:08.680
really available to me, or my parents worked really long hours,

357
00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:12.880
or you know, it's normal family stuff for most people.

358
00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:15.519
Yeah, it's normal family stuff. Thank you for saying that.

359
00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:18.319
I really appreciate your clinical perspective because that is exactly why,

360
00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:20.119
isn't it. It's normal.

361
00:21:20.119 --> 00:21:23.000
Family still creates emotional injuries in people.

362
00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:23.720
Yeah.

363
00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:24.440
Absolutely.

364
00:21:24.519 --> 00:21:27.640
The last that really leaves scars.

365
00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:31.240
Oh, the lack of emotional connection, you know, the lack

366
00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:35.039
of feeling seen and heard, you know, to grow up

367
00:21:35.079 --> 00:21:39.400
without that. But worse too, and I'm sure you've seen this,

368
00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:41.799
so I feel like you've just alluded to this, but

369
00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:45.079
worse to feel like you're lucky, to feel like my

370
00:21:45.160 --> 00:21:48.039
family's really normal. Like the narrative in my family is

371
00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:52.799
I'm lucky, We're normal. Everything's great. Mum does drink every day,

372
00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:56.480
but she's a whop, you know. But still there's something

373
00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:59.839
in us that's growing because really instinctively a child know

374
00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:05.119
something's not right. But worse, you know, things aren't right

375
00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:07.119
in every family, and my family of course, you know,

376
00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:09.359
I've got three children. There are moments of things not

377
00:22:09.559 --> 00:22:12.119
being right. But I know through my work that the

378
00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:15.720
worst thing I can do is dismiss. If I sit

379
00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:19.039
them down and say, you're absolutely right, things aren't right,

380
00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:23.880
I hear you. You know, that's the healing, that's the

381
00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:27.880
honesty that allows them to develop a strong identity to

382
00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:30.519
be able to recognize their feelings. So if you grow

383
00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:34.759
up in a home without that, where exactly as you've

384
00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:37.599
just said, you know, feelings are pushed away, dismiss your

385
00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:40.680
experiences are dismissed, and worse than that, you're told you're lucky.

386
00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:44.640
I think confusing. Most people that I've spoken to have

387
00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:48.559
relational trauma are confused. Why do I feel this way?

388
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:51.559
Why is it so hard? Why do I find relationships

389
00:22:51.559 --> 00:22:54.640
so difficult? Why am I so insecure. You know, often

390
00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:57.039
you find that why I'm so insecure in my relationships

391
00:22:57.079 --> 00:23:01.720
today with other moms or with other dads. Confusing, I

392
00:23:01.720 --> 00:23:03.359
think is often the phrase I hear.

393
00:23:03.880 --> 00:23:08.640
And so relational trauma slash attachment trauma. I guess also

394
00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:12.759
when you talk about relation relational trauma there that would

395
00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:16.839
include bullying, you know, if you're bullied at school, any

396
00:23:17.079 --> 00:23:21.519
anything that having having your best friend go behind your

397
00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:24.000
back and tell all your secrets, you know, all of

398
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:28.440
those betrayals. And and then there's the big, major event

399
00:23:28.519 --> 00:23:30.119
kind of trauma. I'm just trying to run through the

400
00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:32.400
kinds of trauma that people might be able to kind

401
00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:33.160
of connect with.

402
00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:34.599
So the.

403
00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:42.559
Major event disaster, accident, injury, illness, that kind of trauma.

404
00:23:43.559 --> 00:23:45.960
Yes, absolutely, yeah, so they're on that. They would be

405
00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:49.440
that kind of big t stuff that we mentioned. Yeah,

406
00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:52.319
and then their relational stuff would tend to be stuff

407
00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:54.960
tends to be stuff from childhood. I would say eight.

408
00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:57.240
Most often it's in the home, but as you've just

409
00:23:57.279 --> 00:23:59.799
alluded to, it can absolutely be outside of the home.

410
00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:01.839
Or what you'll find is it begins in the home,

411
00:24:01.839 --> 00:24:06.440
but then it's kind of it begins the cascade and

412
00:24:06.440 --> 00:24:08.359
then it will happen outside of the home as well,

413
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:11.480
because obviously the trauma stacks on top of each other.

414
00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:14.759
So they're perhaps learning that traumatic reaction in the home.

415
00:24:15.240 --> 00:24:17.880
Mum and dad aren't available, they're not listening, Dad's drinking

416
00:24:17.880 --> 00:24:20.400
all the time, whatever it might be, or dad's you know,

417
00:24:20.519 --> 00:24:22.960
one of them's violent, whatever, however that might show up

418
00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:26.200
as so that traumatic reaction is happening in the home,

419
00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:29.839
and then you'll often see that mirrored outside because really

420
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:33.319
the first traumatic reaction sets us up for all the rest.

421
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:36.200
That's a really important point that you make. You said,

422
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:38.559
obviously it starts in the homeland. I think that's obvious

423
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:43.480
to a lot of people. Trauma compounds. Yeah, so you

424
00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:49.160
also talk about new tea and old tea trauma. So

425
00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:51.799
do you want to just talk about that a little bit,

426
00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:53.799
because I think a lot of people would relate to

427
00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:54.200
that too.

428
00:24:54.440 --> 00:24:56.759
Yeah, it's really important. I don't know why we don't

429
00:24:56.799 --> 00:24:59.880
talk about it more often because within the research community

430
00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:02.759
it's very well known. I'm sure clinically it is as well.

431
00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:07.680
When somebody presents with an adult trauma, so something's happened

432
00:25:07.720 --> 00:25:10.880
in adulthood. As as a clinician, I'm sure you would agree,

433
00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:15.240
you treat the trauma. Of course, that is a traumatic experience,

434
00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:20.680
and it's a new trauma, but most often there is

435
00:25:20.799 --> 00:25:25.519
a previous trauma. Because the biggest predictor of trauma today,

436
00:25:25.640 --> 00:25:28.200
so any of our listeners experiencing it today, the biggest

437
00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:32.839
predictor is previous trauma, right, Okay, So I hope that

438
00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:34.440
everyone can hear that and that can land so that

439
00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:38.680
sets the way, so we know that if you experience

440
00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:42.440
a trauma in adulthood, not for everyone, but for the

441
00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:46.119
vast majority of people, it lets us know that there

442
00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:50.680
was a previous traumatic reaction, So something happened before. Something

443
00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:52.640
might have happened before. Many times it could have been

444
00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:56.319
this could have been your seventh traumatic reaction. But even

445
00:25:56.319 --> 00:25:58.319
if there was just one when you were aged three,

446
00:25:58.400 --> 00:26:03.160
age four, age fourteen, whatever it was, the new reaction

447
00:26:04.519 --> 00:26:06.720
lets us know that most likely there was there was

448
00:26:06.759 --> 00:26:10.119
one before, because that's the one that paves the way, right.

449
00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:14.440
And why why is that? How or why is it

450
00:26:14.440 --> 00:26:17.960
that one trauma will likely predict another one?

451
00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:20.839
Well, because it's it's just set up the reaction in us.

452
00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:24.359
So and unless we've had treatment, and unless we've we've

453
00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:28.119
resolved that reaction in a really meaningful way, or the

454
00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:35.119
body has fully and completely resolved it. We we're more

455
00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:40.920
easily triggered. We're more easily so if you almost imagine,

456
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:44.279
that's probably the simplest way to explain it, isn't it

457
00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:50.359
is that first reaction set off in us a are

458
00:26:50.559 --> 00:26:53.359
we were, we were on high alert. So from the

459
00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:57.640
moment that happened, we've lived life for many people, potentially

460
00:26:57.720 --> 00:27:03.279
quite peacefully, but we have been in some way looking

461
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:06.319
out for threats in a way that we that we

462
00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:09.680
weren't before that first trauma happened. So it's almost as

463
00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:12.079
if we're kind of scanning what might happen. But then

464
00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:14.680
also there's the issue of being triggered, so that the

465
00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:18.519
new adult trauma may well be a trigger for an

466
00:27:18.519 --> 00:27:22.519
old trauma. And by that I mean so the new

467
00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:26.839
trauma actually might be a retraumatization. So something in our

468
00:27:26.920 --> 00:27:30.400
environment today and I've personally experienced this, it was you know,

469
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:34.119
the word retraumatized or traumatized. It they are different, but

470
00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:38.440
it essentially the same mechanism is happening. So it's where

471
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:42.160
something in our environment or a situation or a problem,

472
00:27:42.200 --> 00:27:44.759
an issue, whatever it might be, has reminded us of

473
00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:48.839
a past threat and then set off that old reaction.

474
00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:52.680
So either of those scenarios could could explain it.

475
00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:55.920
And I think also just as you were talking then,

476
00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:59.160
I was thinking about how I did an episode, a

477
00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:02.160
solo episode of the podcast last year, and listeners may

478
00:28:02.200 --> 00:28:04.599
have heard it. It was right at the beginning of COVID,

479
00:28:04.599 --> 00:28:07.559
and I was talking about emotional resilience and I referred

480
00:28:07.559 --> 00:28:11.839
to the window of tolerance. And so you obviously you'd

481
00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:13.599
be familiar with the window of tolerance, but I think

482
00:28:13.640 --> 00:28:17.160
that's a really important concept too. It's like our the

483
00:28:17.240 --> 00:28:21.559
level of stress we can effectively handle before we become disregulated,

484
00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:25.559
is lower, like our tolerance is lower, right, I think

485
00:28:25.599 --> 00:28:29.559
that's a really important thing for people to understand that

486
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:33.839
because of your previous experiences, it may well be that

487
00:28:35.079 --> 00:28:40.160
the way your nervous system is wired, it may be

488
00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:45.599
that you have a slightly lower capacity, like a lower

489
00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:50.279
threshold for stress, and therefore you're more likely to be

490
00:28:51.079 --> 00:28:57.200
triggered into a trauma reaction later because of that narrower window.

491
00:28:57.720 --> 00:29:01.559
Absolutely, it's so important. It's a and it's it's a

492
00:29:01.640 --> 00:29:04.759
it's a very hopeful thing to realize because we can

493
00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:09.039
widen that window in the window. My healing has involved

494
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:11.519
using that language. And okay, so how do we I

495
00:29:11.559 --> 00:29:14.000
mean mine was probably here and doing this with my hands,

496
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:16.519
you know, it was it was tiny anything and everything

497
00:29:17.079 --> 00:29:20.440
switched my flight fight freeze off. I would hear a

498
00:29:20.440 --> 00:29:22.559
bird or a noise, you know, and it was I

499
00:29:22.599 --> 00:29:26.240
was immediately up there. It was everything just just brought

500
00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:30.359
me straight back in. It was oh so intense, and

501
00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:34.640
over time I widened my window of tolerance. And it's

502
00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:39.079
it's such a hopeful, wonderful way to work. And and

503
00:29:39.400 --> 00:29:41.960
you know, if anyone's interested in it, it tends to

504
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:45.759
be sematic therapists, isn't it who will work that way?

505
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:50.920
Sematic psychotherapists or sematic experiencing who work with the body

506
00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:54.759
to teach you. It's a very empowering way to work

507
00:29:54.759 --> 00:29:57.440
because they teach you how to do that, you know.

508
00:29:57.440 --> 00:30:02.720
And essentially it's really about moving from always observing threat

509
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:06.400
and uncomfortable feelings in your body to moving into a

510
00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:10.240
situation where we can always or you know, attempt to

511
00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:14.240
at least notice that the comfortable and the good not

512
00:30:14.279 --> 00:30:17.480
only in our environment. So I am safe. I'm sitting

513
00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:20.440
on my bed I'm safe, my blankets, really comfortable, whatever

514
00:30:20.440 --> 00:30:22.960
it might be. But also within our body, you know,

515
00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:25.519
so where does your body feel comfortable today? For a

516
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:28.359
long time, the only place I felt comfortable or that

517
00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:30.960
didn't feel like it was rigid with anxiety was my

518
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:34.079
butt cheeks. So my somatic therapist had me live in

519
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:35.839
my butt cheeks for years. It was like, that's where

520
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:39.359
we're going because that's where your body is comfortable. Be

521
00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:43.319
where it's comfortable. And then slowly you feel the relax it.

522
00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:45.640
You know, you realize, oh, isn't that Okay? Now I

523
00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:49.200
think my legs are my legs feel really comfortable. Okay,

524
00:30:49.319 --> 00:30:52.079
let's be in your legs. How does the sunshine feel

525
00:30:52.119 --> 00:30:56.640
on your skin? So it's changing that embodied experience and

526
00:30:56.759 --> 00:30:58.480
changing our relationship with our body.

527
00:30:58.920 --> 00:31:01.680
It's so important. I'm so glad that you mentioned that

528
00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:03.920
because I think so we as.

529
00:31:03.799 --> 00:31:08.000
A species, we are so in our heads all of

530
00:31:08.039 --> 00:31:13.079
the time trying to intellectualize and analyze everything, and really

531
00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:17.759
the way forward with this is, as you say, getting

532
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:21.160
into our body, because that's where all of this is living,

533
00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:23.480
that's where all of this is happening.

534
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:25.640
The other thing that you refer to in your book

535
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:30.839
is Intergenerational Trauma. Do you want to talk a little

536
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:31.839
bit about that.

537
00:31:32.559 --> 00:31:35.039
Yes, I don't know too much about the kind of

538
00:31:35.079 --> 00:31:43.839
current research, but to me neither No, but it's absolutely incredible. Essentially,

539
00:31:43.880 --> 00:31:46.400
what we have learned is that trauma can pass from

540
00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:50.079
one generation to the next. That's essentially the message, and

541
00:31:50.119 --> 00:31:52.839
there are lots of different I would say, we're not

542
00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:59.039
completely clear on all of the mechanism mechanisms of how

543
00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:04.160
that's happening. We think there is a genetic element in

544
00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:08.599
as much as there's an epigenetic element, So how our

545
00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:14.359
environment is making our genes express themselves. We think there's

546
00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:18.880
you know, of course socialized or you know, so for example,

547
00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:23.119
say a parent with PTSD is parenting a child, of

548
00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:26.400
course their PTSD is going to affect or their trauma

549
00:32:26.440 --> 00:32:31.200
is going to affect how they parent. That the children

550
00:32:31.240 --> 00:32:33.680
are going to be picking up on the parent's feelings,

551
00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:36.079
They're going to be picking up on the parents' fears.

552
00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:38.359
You know, I can relate to that one. I'm sure

553
00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:41.519
a lot of people can. We most often will adopt

554
00:32:41.559 --> 00:32:43.359
the fears that our parents have. And if you have

555
00:32:43.400 --> 00:32:47.920
an extremely fear based parenting system going on, don't touch

556
00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:51.519
that don't do that, you're going to adopt a very

557
00:32:51.559 --> 00:32:57.039
similar similar way of being. So there's the genetic epigenetic

558
00:32:57.160 --> 00:33:02.799
physical sort of mechanism, and then there's the socialized parenting mechanism.

559
00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:07.160
We're not entirely sure completely what's going on, but nobody

560
00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:12.759
disputes that it's happening. It's being shown in longitudinal studies

561
00:33:13.160 --> 00:33:16.400
that are not doubtable, if you know what I mean.

562
00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:19.519
Yeah, I just wanted to mention it because I think, again,

563
00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:23.160
there are people who who will say, but I don't

564
00:33:23.160 --> 00:33:25.799
relate to any of this. I'm having these responses or

565
00:33:25.839 --> 00:33:28.519
these trauma responses, or I'm behaving in a certain way,

566
00:33:28.599 --> 00:33:31.000
or I've got these you know, feel insecure on whatever

567
00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:34.640
it is things that you've mentioned, and it may it

568
00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:38.799
may be something that has has been passed down in

569
00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:41.000
some way. I just feel like there's so many things

570
00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:46.319
that we can't see or name or necessarily clearly identify

571
00:33:46.519 --> 00:33:49.440
that could potentially be having an impact.

572
00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:52.839
Oh, it's so important to recognize. I would really because

573
00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:55.599
you mentioned very traum before. We didn't really talk about it,

574
00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:58.559
but we used to set the age of amnesia for

575
00:33:58.599 --> 00:34:01.440
a child at about three, so we thought kids couldn't

576
00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:03.880
remember anything before the age of three, but it's most

577
00:34:03.960 --> 00:34:06.440
recently been moved. We don't think many people can really

578
00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:10.440
remember before the age of seven. So just let that land,

579
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:14.480
you know. So what we know is it's really easy

580
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:18.559
for a child to experience a traumatic reaction. So we

581
00:34:18.679 --> 00:34:21.960
know that, we know it's easy for them to feel overwhelmed, threatened,

582
00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:25.079
and out of control. We know that not many people

583
00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:28.159
remember before the age of seven, and we know relational

584
00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:31.280
trauma is really common. So let's all just do the maths.

585
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:34.320
You know, if people are sitting there going well, you know, Okay,

586
00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:36.360
So I do have low self belief. I've got racing thoughts,

587
00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:40.320
I've got anxiety like symptoms. I'm constantly checking my phone

588
00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:43.360
or I'm you know, avoiding my feelings all the time.

589
00:34:43.400 --> 00:34:45.800
I can't be still, i can't be present. I've got

590
00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:49.280
a strong startled response. But there is no there's nothing

591
00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:53.599
back there. I had a great childhood. Come on, trust

592
00:34:53.639 --> 00:34:58.280
the symptoms, you know that. My favorite phrase really into

593
00:34:58.280 --> 00:35:01.599
it at the moment is the body members. Okay, the

594
00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:05.960
body remembers, the mind doesn't. The mind obfuscates, the mind

595
00:35:06.039 --> 00:35:10.239
makes excuses, the mind minimizes, the mind goes off on

596
00:35:10.280 --> 00:35:14.599
all kinds of tangents to lessen our pain because the

597
00:35:14.679 --> 00:35:17.840
truth is too painful, so we make up all kinds

598
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:20.360
of excuses and narratives and all the rest of it.

599
00:35:20.920 --> 00:35:24.840
But the body remembers. So if you are experiencing these symptoms,

600
00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:29.079
trust your body. Yeah, Okay, it's telling you there's something

601
00:35:29.079 --> 00:35:31.599
there that needs to be healed. So yes, whether that

602
00:35:31.639 --> 00:35:35.159
comes from very trauma, from childhood or intergenerational trauma, trusts

603
00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:39.599
the symptoms. Stop. Stop the natter and the conversations and

604
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:41.679
the will it makes no sense, and just listen to

605
00:35:41.719 --> 00:35:42.199
your body.

606
00:35:42.280 --> 00:35:47.239
Yeah. I just wanted to make one little side comment

607
00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:51.159
about that intergenerational thing which I find fascinating, and that

608
00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:54.039
is I don't remember where I read this, whether it

609
00:35:54.079 --> 00:35:56.199
was your books here or somewhere else, but there is

610
00:35:56.239 --> 00:36:01.360
a period of time when your grandmother pregnant with your mother,

611
00:36:03.079 --> 00:36:07.559
knowing that females are born with all of the eggs

612
00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:11.199
they will ever produce in their body, like all of

613
00:36:11.239 --> 00:36:13.960
their eggs are in their uterus at the time of

614
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:17.400
book birth, and that they develop while that baby is

615
00:36:17.480 --> 00:36:20.199
in the womb. So there is a moment in time

616
00:36:20.679 --> 00:36:24.079
when you were an egg a little bit of DNA

617
00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:29.760
in your mother's wherever where are they stood uterus while

618
00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:32.920
she was a baby in your grandmother's womb? Does that

619
00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:34.199
make sense? Is that very confusing?

620
00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:36.760
No, it makes tatoe sense. It's an incredible image, isn't

621
00:36:36.760 --> 00:36:37.199
it right?

622
00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:39.320
When your grandmother was pregnant with your mother and you

623
00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:42.559
were an egg in your mother's infant womb, so there

624
00:36:42.599 --> 00:36:44.440
was a point in time where all three of you

625
00:36:44.519 --> 00:36:46.039
occupied the same physical body.

626
00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:48.840
And so mind laying, isn't it.

627
00:36:49.480 --> 00:36:53.480
And when you think about the DNA, how trauma affects

628
00:36:53.559 --> 00:36:59.519
the expression of your genes. So we know that you

629
00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:02.719
know your environment. Situations that happen in your environment can

630
00:37:02.760 --> 00:37:06.039
affect how your genes are expressed, how your DNA is expressed.

631
00:37:06.519 --> 00:37:11.880
And so if your grandmother experienced, for example, trauma or

632
00:37:12.159 --> 00:37:17.679
you know, famine or poverty, or went through the war

633
00:37:17.880 --> 00:37:20.079
or something like that, there was a point in time

634
00:37:20.440 --> 00:37:23.480
when her DNA was directly impacting yours.

635
00:37:24.199 --> 00:37:26.800
Yes, absolutely, Just a little.

636
00:37:26.599 --> 00:37:30.760
Side note that I just personally find really interesting when

637
00:37:30.760 --> 00:37:34.800
it comes to all of these unexplained kind of symptoms

638
00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:38.679
or experiences that we have. I think it's worth just

639
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:41.400
keeping in mind that there is so much that is

640
00:37:42.760 --> 00:37:47.119
in us, like bread into us, that we don't necessarily

641
00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:49.760
ever fully consider. We think that we start off there's

642
00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:51.599
an egg and a sperment, you get made and it's

643
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:54.559
a blank slate. But that is not the case. We're

644
00:37:54.599 --> 00:37:56.800
all kind of imprinted with this stuff.

645
00:37:57.400 --> 00:38:00.119
Absolutely more than that, I would say, when you when

646
00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:03.840
you work with real top notch trauma therapists, very very

647
00:38:03.880 --> 00:38:07.519
many of them, I would say, increasingly so in the

648
00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:10.599
last ten years, we'll ask what your birth was like, Yes,

649
00:38:10.840 --> 00:38:13.880
you know, they want to know, and it's not hocus pocus.

650
00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:16.559
What was your mother's pregnancy like with you was do

651
00:38:16.599 --> 00:38:18.280
you know? Was she stress? Was she looking after a

652
00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:22.880
ton of kids? How was she? Was she on any medication?

653
00:38:23.239 --> 00:38:25.480
Was there any alcohol? A You know, they want to

654
00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:28.280
know what was going on when you were in the womb,

655
00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:31.519
And they really really want to know what was going

656
00:38:31.559 --> 00:38:36.440
on during your birth, because we know now absolutely in

657
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:40.559
the womb and the birthing event. Of course, if you

658
00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:43.880
think about what I've just explained about the fight flight freeze,

659
00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:45.920
how common it is in children, it's you know, it's

660
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:49.719
an animal instinct. Could there have been a traumatic imprint

661
00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:54.880
a traumatic memory from then? So yeah, it's mind blowing

662
00:38:55.119 --> 00:38:57.119
and true. It's both of those things.

663
00:38:57.360 --> 00:39:00.320
And Sarah, so now that everybody listening has realized that

664
00:39:00.320 --> 00:39:05.000
they probably having a trauma response, whether they've realized it

665
00:39:05.079 --> 00:39:06.880
or not in the past, they know now, and some

666
00:39:06.920 --> 00:39:09.880
people would listen to this episode and many people would

667
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:13.079
realize they are very clear on what they've experienced in

668
00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:15.960
their early life or even in their adult life, and

669
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:19.159
there are others who perhaps haven't. But as you said,

670
00:39:19.159 --> 00:39:22.039
the good news is that once we know, then there

671
00:39:22.119 --> 00:39:25.199
is so much room for resolving these issues and for

672
00:39:25.239 --> 00:39:28.199
healing these issues. And we always like to finish on

673
00:39:28.239 --> 00:39:31.079
a high note on this show. So where do people

674
00:39:31.119 --> 00:39:33.159
what are some of the treatments. I know that you're

675
00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:36.280
not a clinician. I don't do clinical therapy anymore myself,

676
00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:39.000
but what are some of the treatments that are working

677
00:39:39.159 --> 00:39:43.480
and where should people start with exploring some of these options.

678
00:39:44.679 --> 00:39:47.079
First, someone said, there's an enormous amount you can do

679
00:39:47.119 --> 00:39:50.559
at home. You don't have to if you want to

680
00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:53.719
go for it. Absolutely love therapy. I've worked with so

681
00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:57.280
many therapists over the year years. I still do, but

682
00:39:57.360 --> 00:39:59.400
you don't necessarily have to do that. If you have

683
00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:02.920
a resistance to it, or you're afraid or it feels

684
00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:06.400
too much. Begin where it feels comfortable. So if that

685
00:40:06.519 --> 00:40:12.199
means trying to feel your feelings more at home, you know,

686
00:40:12.280 --> 00:40:18.639
so a simple thing is pausing, acknowledging and allowing your feelings.

687
00:40:18.679 --> 00:40:22.960
So trying to be with your anxiety. So oh, I

688
00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:26.239
feel really anxious today, dropping into your chest and being

689
00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:30.920
with the physical sensations, tracking the sensations, and that's a

690
00:40:31.039 --> 00:40:37.079
common technique used by somatic psychotherapists. You know, that's really

691
00:40:37.079 --> 00:40:38.719
what they're going to be trying to do, is getting

692
00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:41.119
you to embody and be with the feelings and then

693
00:40:41.840 --> 00:40:44.840
releasing them in different ways. But you can work on

694
00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:47.760
that at home, of course, feeling your feelings and being

695
00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:51.039
in your body and with your body. Trauma healing is

696
00:40:51.079 --> 00:40:55.719
all about moving and shifting, so you can begin to

697
00:40:55.800 --> 00:40:58.559
adopt you know, you can start yoga. You know that

698
00:40:58.639 --> 00:41:02.000
there are these very loving, gentle ways of reconnecting with

699
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:06.119
and moving our bodies that will help things begin to move,

700
00:41:06.840 --> 00:41:10.280
because really trauma tamps things down. We're stuck, we're locked

701
00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:12.000
in a reaction. What we want to do is get

702
00:41:12.039 --> 00:41:15.639
everything moving again, you know. So they're two relatively simple

703
00:41:15.639 --> 00:41:18.840
things you can begin to do at home. But I

704
00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:22.199
would always recommend that people work with other people's support

705
00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:26.400
is key, especially if we've got trauma and we've come

706
00:41:26.440 --> 00:41:28.639
from a home where we haven't been validated, we haven't

707
00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:31.599
necessarily had the emotional support we needed. Give it to

708
00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:35.039
yourself now as an adult, I would I would say,

709
00:41:35.079 --> 00:41:37.800
you know, find a good trauma therapist. There are many,

710
00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:41.639
many great ones. The trauma treatments now are incredible. You know,

711
00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:44.199
whether you go down. So I mentioned the sematic line,

712
00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:48.159
So find a sematic experiencing practitioner or a sematic psychotherapist.

713
00:41:49.960 --> 00:41:52.119
Or if you don't, if you're not comfortable working with

714
00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:53.719
the body, which for a long time I was and

715
00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:55.880
it wasn't the place I could start. It was too

716
00:41:55.920 --> 00:42:00.920
overwhelming for me, then just talk therapy, you know, find

717
00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:04.239
a psychologist, find a therapist, but please make sure that

718
00:42:04.280 --> 00:42:08.239
they are very, very fluent in trauma. You know that

719
00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:13.000
it's really very important. And I would always also argue

720
00:42:13.039 --> 00:42:17.920
that I tend to encourage people to find people a

721
00:42:18.159 --> 00:42:22.880
therapists who are very fluent in trauma and very fluent

722
00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:26.239
in addiction. And I think that frightens people when I

723
00:42:26.280 --> 00:42:30.519
say that. But it's not. Addiction is a very curious thing,

724
00:42:30.679 --> 00:42:33.400
and it's not that I'm saying that everyone who has

725
00:42:33.440 --> 00:42:35.440
trauma has an addiction. But what we do know, if

726
00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:38.000
you think back to what I said, is that trauma

727
00:42:38.440 --> 00:42:42.039
points us towards avoidance, so we will avoid our feelings.

728
00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:45.320
And the people who understand avoidance, the therapists who understand

729
00:42:45.360 --> 00:42:48.079
avoidance and really get it and will really help you

730
00:42:48.960 --> 00:42:51.880
pinpoint it and get really, really honest about it, are

731
00:42:51.920 --> 00:42:56.079
people who are trained in addiction. So that's also something

732
00:42:56.119 --> 00:42:57.920
to look for. So people are trained in trauma and

733
00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:00.280
trained in addiction. If you can find someone with those too,

734
00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:04.559
that to me is the most powerful match trauma and addiction.

735
00:43:05.320 --> 00:43:09.599
Yeah, absolutely absolutely, And I just wanted to add too

736
00:43:09.719 --> 00:43:15.079
that I just think self compassion is so important and because,

737
00:43:15.199 --> 00:43:17.639
as you say, or as we discussed earlier, there is

738
00:43:17.679 --> 00:43:22.920
so much shame and self judgment and what's wrong with

739
00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:25.719
me that goes along with some of these trauma reactions,

740
00:43:25.719 --> 00:43:30.960
that that capacity to offer yourself some kindness is just

741
00:43:31.199 --> 00:43:34.280
so so critical, and for addiction as well, and for

742
00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:36.400
all of the other things that we've talked about. We're

743
00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:40.880
not good at self compassion. We're not good at self kindness.

744
00:43:41.320 --> 00:43:44.119
We are not good at that. That is the journey. Honestly,

745
00:43:44.159 --> 00:43:46.239
that is the healing journey. And I think it's the

746
00:43:46.280 --> 00:43:48.880
thing I resisted the most, you know, I was so

747
00:43:49.039 --> 00:43:52.400
hard on myself and I think many people can relate

748
00:43:52.440 --> 00:43:54.679
to that. But yes, it's something you can begin to

749
00:43:54.719 --> 00:43:58.599
do at home. Today is playing with that idea. What

750
00:43:58.639 --> 00:44:01.719
does that feel like if I talk to myself kindly?

751
00:44:02.119 --> 00:44:05.440
What do I say? You know, think about a loving parent.

752
00:44:05.519 --> 00:44:08.039
What would a loving parent say? Really, that's what we're

753
00:44:08.039 --> 00:44:11.000
trying to do that. You know, they would stop and

754
00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:14.599
give us a moment if we were overwhelmed, wouldn't they

755
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:16.400
That's what a loving parent would do. Then, wouldn't make

756
00:44:16.440 --> 00:44:18.639
us crash on with the day. They'd say, sit down,

757
00:44:18.920 --> 00:44:22.320
what do you need? What do you need? How are you?

758
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:22.519
You know?

759
00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:25.440
So it's really thinking about what that might look like

760
00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:29.039
for you, that really compassionate parental in a voice, and

761
00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:33.000
beginning to play with it and see how it feels.

762
00:44:33.480 --> 00:44:35.159
But thank you for bringing that up, because there's something

763
00:44:35.159 --> 00:44:37.079
people can do at home along with that kind of

764
00:44:37.119 --> 00:44:40.199
feeling our feelings and getting moving. I would say that

765
00:44:40.239 --> 00:44:43.559
those three are really really key, really critical.

766
00:44:43.960 --> 00:44:46.440
Sarah Thank you so much for your time today. It's

767
00:44:46.480 --> 00:44:49.559
been so valuable. The book is called You're Not Broken,

768
00:44:50.360 --> 00:44:53.000
Break Free from Trauma and Reclaim your Life. I'll put

769
00:44:53.039 --> 00:44:56.039
links to where people can buy that in the show notes.

770
00:44:56.119 --> 00:44:58.159
As I think we've well established this as a topic

771
00:44:58.199 --> 00:45:03.199
that everybody everybody, if not you personally, then everybody around you.

772
00:45:03.320 --> 00:45:06.320
So which is why I think that we all really

773
00:45:06.360 --> 00:45:09.000
need to get across this. So I'm so grateful for

774
00:45:09.079 --> 00:45:09.800
your contribution.

775
00:45:10.199 --> 00:45:12.639
It's been great. Thank you so much. Been really really

776
00:45:12.639 --> 00:45:15.559
lovely to chat to another psychologist. It's been really lovely.

777
00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:21.760
That's Sarah's book is called You're Not Broken, and it's

778
00:45:21.800 --> 00:45:24.800
available right now in all good bookstores. You can find

779
00:45:24.840 --> 00:45:27.559
out more about Sarah and her work at her website

780
00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:31.239
Sarah Woodhouse dot com, or follow her on Instagram and

781
00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:35.920
Facebook at the Sarah Woodhouse. As always, please come and

782
00:45:35.960 --> 00:45:39.920
connect with me on Instagram at cast Done underscore xo,

783
00:45:40.119 --> 00:45:43.960
or Facebook at Cassdone dot xo. Check out my website

784
00:45:44.039 --> 00:45:46.079
cast Done dot com and I will catch you on

785
00:45:46.119 --> 00:45:48.079
the next episode of Crappy to Happy.

786
00:45:49.880 --> 00:45:52.639
Crappy to Happy is presented by cast Done, produced by

787
00:45:52.719 --> 00:45:55.559
Davis Lenski, Audio production by Darcy Thompson.

788
00:46:00.440 --> 00:46:01.800
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