Buying Happiness with Kate Campbell

0:04 This is Crappita Happy and I am your host Castunn. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist. I'm mindfulness meditation teacher and of course author of the. Crappita Happy books. In this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their field and who have something of value to share that will help you feel less crappy and more happy. Well, we all know that money can't buy happiness? Or can it? Today I am speaking with Kate Campbell, who is a financial educator and host of the Top Rating Australian finance podcast. Kate has recently written a book called Buying Happiness, Learn to Invest your time and money Better.

0:56 What I love about this conversation it is not just about how to save money, how to pay down debt and the importance of those things. It's about how you invest all of your resources, your time and your money to maximize your happiness. Some really solid practical advice. Whether you have a lot of money or not very much at all, everybody is going to get something of value out of this conversation. Here is that conversation with Kate. Kate Campbell, Welcome to the Crappy to Happy podcast. Such a pleasure to talk. To you today. Thank you so much for having me Cass and Kate. Congratulations on the success of your own podcast. It is called the.

1:37 Australian Australian Podcasts Podcasts. There you go, got it. Well done and easy to find. The Australian Finance podcast hugely successful. People are really really interested in I get in money, let's face it, how to get it, how to save it, how to make more of it. Yeah, we've seen huge growth in the last few years and it's fantastic. The people are finally starting to have these conversations about money. Even if it's not with their friends and family, they're at least able to find ways to listen to it online and learn remotely. Yeah, it's astonishing, Like some of the top rated podcasts in the country or All Around Money, I love it, and I mean, I think we all want to become more financially empowered, and that is largely because we all believe that money will make us happy. So this is the topic of our conversation today.

2:25 Right. So, I've written three books on happiness myself and as a psychologist. One thing I always say to people is you know, more money doesn't necessarily mean more happiness, but the truth of the matter is it doesn't necessarily mean less happiness. Doesn't. And also, like when you don't have money, that. Is a huge cause of stress and anxiety. So I think we just need to get really clear upfront about what is the relationship between money and happiness. Yeah, I mean, we can all agree that we can't just go to the store and buy happiness immediately, but there's a lot of links between how we use our money and our happiness. And so money does give us a very good baseline for happiness. It gives us the opportunity for happiness if we're able to meet all of our essential needs, like we've got our roof, arour head, we've got our electricity, we can put food on the table.

3:17 That gives us a really good baseline to start. And often where we get a bit confused is we connect the money with material things and we can get a little bit distracted about what actually makes us happy because it's easy to go I'll be happy when I have ten thousand dollars, or I'll be happy when I win the lottery, and we forget to figure out what makes us happy. Now. So that's something I really encourage people do during the book, is really trying to think about what makes them happy and it's not that easy to answer at the very beginning, and trying to find ways to enjoy the process rather than just waiting till they reach as particular financial goal, going Okay, well I've got this money, then I'll be happy, because chances are if you reach that goal, you probably will find another goal.

4:08 The bench mark will move. So finding a way to enjoy the process is a really hard thing, but there are small ways that we can change the way we spend our money a little bit to increase our happiness. Yeah, so, Kate, I'm very aware that right now there's a cost of living crisis. I'm not in Australia at the moment, but I know it's just as bad over there as it is here in the UK. Interest rates just keep going bloody up and up and up, like we're all really feeling the squeeze. So I think as a starting point, before we even get to having some extra money to spend and how we might spend that to maximize our happiness, what are some things the average person can do to just kind of shore up to feel a little more financially secure and in control when things are pretty tied.

5:00 Let's face it, one thing that's kind of not that obvious, but it does seem obvious at the end of the day, instead of thinking about all of the things we can't afford at the moment, thinking about how we can invest our time a little bit differently with our relationships with friends and family. Because one of the really interesting studies I had to look at while researching Buying Happiness was the Harvard Adult Development Study that you might have had a look at too, cass And they've been following a group of people for over eighty years now and their children and their grandchildren, and what they found was the biggest predictor of happiness and health and wellbeing long term was actually the quality of people's relationships. It wasn't how famous they were, it wasn't how much money they had, it wasn't the qualifications. It was really the quality of their relationships and knowing they had people to call on in the good times and the bad times. So one of the things that we can come back to, especially when times are tough financially, what are the low cost things we can do with our friends and family that don't cost a lot of money but really bring a lot of happiness to our lives. And for a lot of people, that might just be having a coffee with their partner in the morning, or it might be going out for a walk with their friend around the park.

6:17 Because when I was researching with our own audience and I asked everyone what were some of the low cost ways to boost their happiness, it will always involve another person. And an interesting exercise you can try is just writing a list of really low cost happiness boosters. I like to have this on a notes app on my phone, and then when I feel like I need to pick me up and I need something that's not too expensive, I can just look at that list and go, okay, go for a walk with a friend around a park. I can do that. It doesn't cost a lot, but it really gives me a huge happiness boost. Yeah, that is such a good point. And I think even just that. First thing you said about shifting the focus away from what you can't afford, or you can't do, or you can't have, and redirecting your attention. I mean, that's just useful advice anyway, isn't it. But obviously, like you said, all of these low cost, no cost things that we can do.

7:10 That increase our satisfaction with life. That's a really really great tip. So then when we do have some disposable income and we start looking at how we want to spend our time, you've done the research, You've really dug into this, and you've come up with in your book Buying Happiness, You've come up with kind of five different ways that we can use our money that are likely to give us the most bang for our buck in terms of happiness. So I would really love to run through briefly what those five things are. I think, as we're going into a new year and people are thinking ahead about their plans and their goals and what they want to do and how they might spend and save and the things they're saving, four can be really useful to have this in mind about just keeping a sense of perspective about what's actually likely to bring us the most happiness at the end of the day and what's not likely to What are the things we think are going to make us happy, and actually.

8:05 The research is pretty clear that they don't. Yeah, So one of the things that is really a good way to focus on. It is focusing on experiences over things, and that probably sounds really obvious to you right now when I'm saying it, but we often forget that actually adds a lot of value to our lives, and so we get caught up seeing what everyone else is doing on social media. We get caught up thinking that we should have that latest car or that latest bag. But it's actually the experiences that add a lot of value to our lives. And one of the reasons, and that's another thing that the research shows is anticipation of that experience. That is something that gives us a lot of happiness. My friend Owen says, if you drool, it tastes better. I'm not really as a fan of terminology, but it's that anticipation of the experience that gives us a happiness boost. We also get a happiness boost from the experience itself, and then we also get to remember that experience for many years to come. And even better if you do it with a friend or family member, because you get to one invest in that relationship together and then you have someone you can reflect on that experience with. So many people listening will be familiar of planning a trip maybe within Australia, maybe a backpacking trip to Europe. You had months to think about it in advance.

9:24 You got to have that adventure, and then for years to come you retell the stories of your trip overseas. So that really ticks off a lot of happiness boosting methods in one go. So what I really encourage people to do is looking out at your calendar for the year ahead in twenty twenty four. You might not have that much in it already. So a really good challenge to do after listening to this episode is go, well, can I book five activities in my calendar for the year ahead. They don't have to be expensive things. It might just be booking in a pottery class with a friend, or saying I'm going to host a dinner in March and sending out save the dates to everyone. But put five things in your calendar that involves someone else that you can anticipate in the months to come. And I think that's a really good way to add a bit of extra happiness to your year in twenty twenty four, and it doesn't have to cost a lot of money.

10:18 I love that, And it's so interesting that you say that because I do these little three mindful minutes, these really short episodes, and the one that I did last week was on this topic of savoring and savoring is quite different from mindfulness. Mindfulness is about being very present in this moment, like right now, whereas savoring and really like sucking all the joy out of an experience is not just about the present moment. Savoring is actually about anticipating future events and also remembering past events. So that's really interesting that you have mentioned that as well, just reinforcing the benefits of savoring. So, Kate, I noticed in your book another misconception that people make is who they spend their money on. So this idea of like pro social spending is a really interesting topic as well. What did your research uncover about that We get.

11:07 A huge benefit from spending money on other people, and it doesn't necessarily have to be our friends and family. We also benefit hugely if we donate money to charity or we volunteer our time. So that's something to really consider if you're thinking about ways that you can boost your happiness in the year ahead, thinking about well, how can I give an extra thirty minutes to my friends and family this week, and that might mean giving your ear just to listen to what's going on in their lives. It might be giving your mom a call, it might be helping your neighbor with the groceries, or it might be actually volunteering through a more organized, structured organization. But just thinking about how you can use your time as an asset. We often think about helping other people in terms of donating money, but we can also donate our time and we also get a really big benefit from donating time and money to people that we know. And so if you are donating to an organization, if you find out, well, who's the end recipient. And that's why many organizations you sponsor a particular person or a community or a koala or a tree, because you get to really connect with where your money's going. So finding ways to use your time and money in ways to help your community and connect more with other people is a really good way to boost your happiness.

12:27 That's such a great point. And interestingly, I think too sometimes we actually find it easier to throw a bit of money towards the cause if we have the money available, as opposed to actually giving up our time and you know, doing those things like going and volunteering and helping out in person. So I think that's a really good point, not just about how we use our money for other people's benefit, but also yeah, thinking about how we use our time. So time and money, let's talk about that. So, you know interestingly too, So I work for myself for the longest time time. You know, the reason I do the work that I do now is because I really didn't want to be in this situation of trading my time for money. When you work in a profession like I do an hourly rate, you're only getting paid for the hour that you're sitting in front of somebody. So I was really keen to find other ways to generate income that didn't rely on my time. So the time money equation is a really interesting one, and in terms of how that links to happiness and well being, it's not a question in there, but can we just talk about the relationship between time and money.

13:31 We often forget that our time is an asset too, and it's an asset that we're spending every day and that we can't get back. Sure, there's ways that we can buy a little bit of our time back, maybe by outsourcing something like buying a meal so suddenly I've got an extra hour in the evening, but once we've spent the day, we can't buy it back. So I think it's really important when we're thinking about how we're designing our gear and our lives and even our financial goals, that we also include time in there as well, because there's a lot of things that money can't buy, and often time is involved in those things. So in the book, I was talking about things like money can't just buy purpose.

14:12 We can't just buy purpose on a silver platter. We can't just simply buy our health. Sure we can pay for a lot of things, but we do need to invest our time in that as well. We can't buy relationships, we need to invest time in it. So I think these things really go hand in hand because if you just solely focus on monetary goals maybe you want to buy a property, or you want a certain amount in your investment portfolio, or you really want to have a certain job title and salary, we can often forget how important those other things in life are, like our health and relationships. And so that's why the whole learn to invest your time and money Better was the tagline for the podcast as well, because we didn't want to just focus on the number in the spreadsheet, because that's important.

15:02 It's important to give people the skills to budget and to invest and to sort out their retirement, but it's also important to talk about why we're doing all that and why we're working towards particular financial goals, because you might be investing and building wealth for forty years, but have you actually enjoyed that forty years along the way? Because we don't want our financial goals and all the things we're working towards to make us miserable, because otherwise we have spent forty years of our life that we can't get back. So it is a hard trade off because there's so many competing things. We do need a certain amount of money to cover our living costs and to put something away for the future, but we also need to think about how we're spending and investing our time today. So there's not really a simple answer. It's something that we need to keep thinking about and going, well, how am I prioritizing my time this year? And maybe I'm investing in something like an education course that's going to take multiple years, but I'm really enjoying the process and That's probably another element to when you're thinking about how you're using your time, you want to think about, well, what is the process like as well? Because we might spend five years working really hard at something. We don't want to just leave our happiness to the point where we hit that end goal. So if I'm studying a five year course like I am at the moment, I don't want to go I'm only going to be happy when I finally graduate. I want to be able to given it such a huge investment of my time, and

16:32 it means there's trade offs. I don't get to spend as much time with friends and family, it means I need to really enjoy the process in the meantime. So when you're thinking about how you're spending your time and money this year, thinking about, well, am I enjoying the process? Am I getting to do a bit of both? Am I getting to enjoy today but also put things aside for the future. So it's something to reflect on as you plan out your goals for the year ahead of how you're using the present moment as well as the future moment. Yeah, really good point. It's interesting to think about time and money both as resources that we have available to us, and yeah, and to consider how we spend them the most wisely, you know, talking about I was talking before about trading my time for money and wanting to get out of that kind of transactional arrangement. The other thing is trading money for time, you know. And so I often hear people talk about I can't afford, well, not even I can't afford, just I feel guilty, for example, paying for a cleaner. I can easily do that myself. Oh I feel I should do that myself. I should cook or you know, whatever it is that we do because we can do it and not actually really considering the fact that what you're giving instead is your time and that is just as valuable.

17:53 Yeah, and I think thinking about what you could do, let's say the cleaning example, because that one comes up a lot, what would you do instead of that task and thinking about, well, for you, you might not really mind cleaning, and it might be a time when you listen to a podcast, So I'll clean the house on a Saturday listen to a podcast. For me, I don't mind that task, and so for me, I don't really feel like I need to outsource that. But if you really dislike cleaning, and it's actually taking away from your happiness, and you have the means in your budget to outsource it. The research shows that you actually will get a bit of a happiness boost from buying some of that time back. So maybe you suddenly have three hours, but then if you use that three hours to go for a breakfast with a friend or do something with that time, then that will work as well. But there's a point where you outsource too many tasks in your life. So that's also a trade off as well, because we often get a lot of meaning from those points of friction in our lives, so you don't want to outsource everything. And one of the examples a writer, Oliver Berkman, who wrote this amazing book called Four Thousand Weeks, told me was that think about writing a birthday card to a friend.

19:05 You could just send a text and sure that would acknowledge their birthday, but you could also do the task that involves a lot more friction of going to the store and buying a card, sitting down to write it, finding your local post office, and mailing it off. And that is not that takes probably an hour in total, maybe two. There's a lot more mental load involved there, but sometimes it's those points of friction that make things more meaningful. And sure, you can do you can outsource things, or you can do a quick thing, but you also need to think about the fact that sometimes putting more time into something does have meaning too. So outsourcing something so for me that's my tax return. I'll happily pay for an accountant each year because that is a lot of stress off my plate. But it's not outsourcing everything, so there's always a balance needed.

19:54 Such a good point. And also what you said about like when I outsource something, So let's say I do get the cleaner in for three hours. It's like, then, how do I use that three hours the most wisely? Because I could spend that three hours scrolling on Instagram or you know, otherwise just kind of frittering away my time. And sometimes that's fine. Sometimes that's you know, nice little mental break. Yeah, but it's being intentional then about how we allocate that that resource that we suddenly find ourselves with. I think that's a really good point. Yeah, and a really interesting exercise if you are wanting to think about how you spend your money and your time and align it a bit more closely with what you value is just going through your budget from the last month and going through your calendar and sort of categorizing and working out where do you spend the most time and the most money in broad categories, so it might be work number one and then sleep number two or something like that, and then for spending, it could be your roof and your groceries and your bills. But if you go past the top three and maybe write a list of ten, That's what I've done for myself.

21:00 I've ridden the list of ten areas I spend the most time in order, and ten areas I spend the most money in order. And then when you're thinking about what you value, you can go, well, how closely can I align my values and my priorities? And maybe it's career and relationships and health in whatever order it is with these two lists of where I spend my time and money. And you're not going to make huge changes overnight, but you can slowly start to shift and go, Okay, well, I'm barely spending any money and time on my health, and I'm saying that health is really important to me, So what small change can I make this week? And maybe it's just spending half an hour more this week going for a walk to more closely align what I think is my priority, which is my health, with where I'm spending my money and my time. And that's just one way you can start to audit. Basically, audit your calendar, audit your bank account, and think about where you spending those assets and how you can spend them to increase your happiness.

21:59 Really, that sounds like a great exercise for somebody to do, if you've got the guts to do it. Like I'm thinking, oh God, do I want. To look what I've spent my money? That's a challenge, right. I think a lot of people, especially when it comes to money, people are very avoidant, like don't want to look at it, Like, yes, we get through, we do what we need to do, and the rents paid and the mortgage is paid or whatever, but beyond that, we don't really like to look at or talk about where our money is going. You've got a whole section on that, actually, haven't you about being more open and talking about money? Yeah? I think only good things overall happen when we start talking about money with our friends and family, and it starts having a ripple effect across our whole community, and you could start as small as just talking to a friend about a way you've saved money recently, or one of your goals, because we love talking about goals, So you can start by just saying, oh, I really want to save one thousand dollars this year to do this activity or go away with my friends at the end of the year. So starting small with savings, tips and goals are really good ways to start that conversation because you don't want to jump straight into the deep end, especially if neither of you have had a money conversation before.

23:11 Suddenly asking them what's your salary, how much is your net worth? How many properties do you have, what's your retirement balance? Like that is very confronting. It's intense. Yeah, yeah, And I think that's something that I learned the hard way when I was sort of eighteen and so excited about learning about finance, and most of my friends were going, I just want to pay my phone bill, I want to pay for my groceries. I don't want to learn about all of this other stuff, and so many of us don't have the language to have conversations about money. So starting super small and building up from there because you slowly want to show the people around you you're a person that it's okay to have a money conversation with. You're not going to judge them, You're not going to make them feel guilty for talking about it.

23:53 You're not going to make them feel ashamed because they spent money on something that you don't value as much. Because a lot of us grow up hearing language from our family, from the world around us like you wasted that money, you wasted your time on that thing, and that makes us feel really ashamed about where we're spending our resources. So start having those conversations by just showing people around you, hey, it's okay to have a money conversation with me, and if there isn't anyone around you can have that conversation with. Then finding spaces like Facebook groups, being aware that there are lots of different opinions on there. There's a lot of information that's not necessarily good financial information, but it just starts to show you that, hey, there are other people having conversations about money, and I can just be a fly on the wall and just see things that are out there. Because unless you get to be exposed to conversations about money. You don't know all of the options available to you, and it's not until you put yourself in that room or that virtual room, that you go, oh, investing something that I can do.

24:53 It's not something that I have to be really wealthy to do. It's not something I have to be really smart to do. I can I can be an investor too, And once you put yourself in those rooms, you start to see there are more options available to me. Yeah, I think I think one thing that stops people talking about money too is this like comparison and shame about especially if you're in a position and I've had friends, you know, come and talk to me. We've had conversations with each other about oh, you know, feeling like we should be further ahead, or feeling like we feeling regret about decisions we've made, or debt we've run up. And I think it can be they hard conversations to have, but they're kind of really freeing conversations to have when people can start being honest with each other. But you know, I think you know, you've got some really good advice in the book too, about kind of freeing yourself from some of that self judgment and feeling bad about where you are financially.

25:46 Yeah, I think comparison is a really hard thing that we get stuck with when it comes to money, especially but just everything. And we instead of getting exposed to a small community bubble around us, we now get exposed to millions of people that we never know through social media, and suddenly we're seeing all these people seem like they have a lot of money and they've got it all figured out. But the thing to remember is you just when you look at someone, you never know if they're starting one hundred meters behind you or one hundred meters ahead of you. You don't know if they're in a substantial amount of financial stress and debt. You don't know if they were given a leg up, or maybe they want the lottery. A lot of us have that dream.

26:26 But I think it's really important just to think about your own goals and your own financial situation because that's where we can make progress. We can't control all of those people around us, but if we can start narrowing in on what we want to work towards with our financial goal, and that might just be getting out of debt or sorting out an emergency fund, so that if we need to leave a toxic job or relationship, we've got some money put aside. I think if we can just pick a very first goal and go, okay, this is it. I want to save thousand dollars, and then work backwards from there on, how can I work towards it and just sort of put those blinkers on and slowly And it's not easy start to focus on, well, how can I take one step to improve my financial future and be kind to my future self? And how can I slowly start to tune out all of that noise around me? And it's not easy, but I think it's really important. Otherwise we can just get stuck watching everyone else around us and not make any progress on our own financial journey.

27:31 And I think also that getting really intentional and like you said, getting clear about financial goals or something I'm saving for or a debt that I want to pay down also helps you to be a lot clearer with your boundaries too. So if you do get invited to do something you know, you can learn to say no more easily because you've already decided what is more important for you. Otherwise it's too easy to just get pulled along and just keep on spending money here, there, everywhere and never getting ahead or getting out of that debt. Yeah, and I think that's really important. If you are, say a lot of people I speak to us saving for a first home house deposit, and so to do that and to achieve that goal in the timeframe they want, they can't go to every single activity, and they can't go to every dinner. And if they explain that to their friends and family and say, hey, look, for the next two years, I'm going to have to say no to a few things, but I'm going to propose something else that we go for a walk instead, or we do dinner and a barbecue at my place. And then if they explain that to their friends and family, often they can understand where they're coming from when they say no to things. And I think we hopefully all have a few people in our corner that are going to be really supportive of our financial goals. But if you explain why you're saying no to particular things, I think that makes it a little bit easier rather than just say no to every invite. That's quite hard on relationships.

28:58 Yeah, Yeah, and then people still inviting you because you never say yes, do anything, but also gives other people permission to do the same. So you know, you have that conversation, you open about it, and then somebody else goes, actually, you know what, I don't want to spend that money either, because I think sometimes there is just this going with the crowd, and maybe there's a few people who would rather not spend that money and would rather put it towards something else. So you talk in the book, you open up really talking about Okay, let's just start with like clearing debt, getting an emergency fund, like just getting to the basics of shoring up some financial resources. Simple question, if you've got debt and no emergency fund, should you pay down the debt first and then start the emergency fund or should you be working on both of these at the same time.

29:38 I think it's really important that everyone has a little bit of a cash buffer, because if you have an unexpected expense, you're going to have to add to the debt to pay for it. So for a lot of people, it's just coming up with a small cash buffer and then while you're doing that, working on a plan to pay off that debt. In Australia, we have a fantastic resource called the National Debt help Line, and they offer free financial counselors that are trained, they're independent, and they will go into bat for you, talking to banks and utility providers and anyone that is chasing you up, and they'll help negotiate things and come up with a really solid plan for you to follow. So having someone that really knows what they're talking about when you're in that situation is worth its weight in gold. So please contact them if that's you. But I think focusing on finding working out a plan to paying off that debt, and there's lots of different approaches to doing that, which I talk about a few in the National Debt Helpline has quite a few resources. But also thinking about well, how you're going to build your financial foundation and make sure you've got a cash buffer that when an emergency comes up or when an unexpected expense comes up, you've also got some money aside for that. And building that financial foundation of getting out of debt, building an emergency fund are really essential skills that can be converted to lots of other different skills because you're building that habit of putting money aside every month and maybe it's for debt at this paying off debt at the start, but then you can use that money to start saving for a goal.

31:09 So it's actually a really good process to empower you towards the rest of your financial goals because you get to build really strong habits of putting money aside each month, and then after that you can go, Okay, well now I want to save five thousand dollars or I want to make my very first investment, and you can just put your goal and all of those skills you've mastered in a slightly different direction that moves you the next step forward. Yeah, and you've got loads of suggestions in the book about different ways that you can start to do that and allocate funds so that you're ticking all of those boxes, which is really useful. I do really like that there's some really solid kind of financial advice in there. But there's also this idea of like really reviewing values and what matters to you and then so, like you said, not just accumulating money, making money, investing money, but actually then how you spending that in a way that is going to give you the most meaning and fulfillment, which is what I'm all about. So it's great. I really appreciate you writing the book. Is there any last tips or advice? There's loads more in the book Kate suggestions for people, but is there any last tips that you would share about how you can buy happiness?

32:23 I think one of the really important parts of this puzzle, and we haven't really talked about it today, but it's the idea of investing, and whether it's investing in your time, or your relationships or your financial future, it's a really important skill that not many of us knew about growing up. But it's something we should be talking more and more about. And many people don't invest because they think it's too hard, it's too confusing. They think they need to know a lot of money or they need to have a lot of money to invest. And i'd really encourage you if this is you and you have never invested before, that maybe make this a goal to learn about investing in twenty twenty four, because, let me tell you, it is a lot less complicated then it seems. The media makes it seem like it's this very complicated thing that you have to be the Wolf of Wall Street to understand.

33:09 And if you've watched that movie, it doesn't turn out so well, but thinking you can do it with five dollars. You don't have to have a commerce degree to start investing and it can be simple and you can be an investor too, So if you do want more resources, we do run through the basics of investing and how to get started on the Australian Finance podcast. But I just really encourage you get curious, be a owner of the economy, not just a consumer of the economy, and it's really empowering to invest in your own financial future. That is so good that you included that, because I was going to ask you about investing and I thought, oh, we've run out of time, so I can't. I'm glad that you tack that on. But while we are talking about it now, if I can take a little bit more time this five dollar thing, how do you start with five dollars? Can you just name me like a platform or somewhere that I can go to and if a listener listening can go to where I can literally start investing with five bucks.

34:03 One of the options in Australia is called Raise. I don't have any affiliation with them, but they are one platform. Do your research, make sure you understand what you're investing in and you read all the legal documents. But that is one way you can start with five dollars and you can start feeling the experience of being an investor and how empowering that can be. Amazing. I'm going to look at that website. Thank you so much, Kay, I really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks for your time and buying Happiness. Learn to Invest Your time and Money Better is available in all bookstores. Where else can people find you? Obviously the Australian finance podcast website. Kay, Where can they find you?

34:45 You can head to RASK Education and we have twenty five thousand students taking our free financial education courses covering everything from making your very first investment to buying a property. Amazing. Thanks Kate, thanks so much for having me kas. If you enjoy this conversation, please share it with a friend. Hit the plus button wherever you listen to subscribe so that you never miss an episode, and maybe, if you really like the show, think about leaving us a five star rating and review. Catch up with me caston dot Com, follow me on Instagram, cast on underscore XO or Crappy to Happy pod on Instagram as well. Thank you so much for being here. I can't wait to catch you on the next episode of Crappy to Happy