Cleaning your trauma with Yemi Penn

0:00 Just a heads up that this episode references sexual abuse and self harm, so if those topics are likely to be triggering for you, you might want to skip this episode. This is Crappya Happy, and I am your host, Cas Done. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist. I'm mindfulness meditation teacher and of course author of the Crappy to Happy books. In this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their field and who have something of value to share that will help you feel less crappy and more happy. Hello, I am back.

0:49 Welcome to another episode of Crappy to Happy. Just a little note about what's happening going forward. Due to feedback that I received on my Instagram page when I asked people whether they were interested in having more of the three Mindful Minutes shortcasts, the answer was overwhelmingly yes. So from now on you'll see brand new three Mindful Minutes in the feed on Mondays, with regular episodes such as this one coming out roughly Wednesdays. I try to get them out to you via Wednesday. So I've got an amazing guest for you this week. Yemy Penn is her name, Yemy is a Sydney based ted X speaker who wears an incredible number of hats, including first Up. She's a PhD researcher looking at trauma transformation. She's a transformational thought leader, an author, an engineer, entrepreneur, a mother, and a documentary producer. Ultimately, Yemy's on a mission to remove the stigma around trauma and to encourage everyone to clean up their own trauma so that we don't pass it on to the next generation.

1:55 Here is my conversation with Yemy Ye Me. Welcome to the A Happy Podcast. Thank you so much for having me. You know, I've read a lot of your bios. So you were born in London, kind of raised it for some part of your childhood in Nigeria, back to London and now in Sydney. So I'm just curious to know what took you to Australia. Mate, I was running away, right. Was it neighbors or I don't know. There was one sop where you want to go when nobody knows your name, but I'm actually saying the opposite. It might have been neighbors. I really needed to go somewhere where nobody knew my name. So the truth is on paper. It was shame. Didn't just wanted to just like get on with raising my two kids.

2:39 But the surface answer I gave everybody was a job I came to work on Sydney Metro. It was a project I wanted and that is also the truth. But honestly I came to repair and heal. Wow. Well that thank you for the truthful answer. It always helps, doesn't it. Yeah, Yeah, let's get straight to it. So so, yeah, me, you've been really open. We will get to that. But you've been also really open about some of the trauma that you experienced in your early life. Particularly I saw your Ted talk and you straight out talk about your being sexually abused as a seven year old. Yeah. Obviously that had a profound impact on you. But I'm also curious to know, like, as you reflect on your growing up years, what were some of the other circumstances that had a really profound impact on you or you feel really shaped you for better or for worse.

3:32 Yeah, I mean, as you were saying it, the immediate one was being put in board in school in Nigeria. Even just saying it sounds so loaded and heavy, but it was back then, you know, I had pretty much grown up with at the time, my three siblings, even though I'm one of seven in total, but it was just, you know it, we'd grown up, we'd lived in parts of the UK for a bit, I mean maybe lived around the world, but I kind of had those three siblings I'd grown up with, and then being put in board in school. And I make this very whenever I'm doing a keynote. I don't want people to think board in school, like I don't know eton where Prince Harry or William went. Now we're talking a scene in Survivors where there's no camera crew and you're lucky if you get any rice. So I want to make here that it was not in Nigeria.

4:14 Nigeria. Yeah, yeah, in Nigeria. So it was. It was extremely scary. Like even just saying it now, I have the visceral feeling of how that must have felt, being eleven years old and going into the back and beyond bush and going to boarding school where had to fetch my own water. I was a junior. Everybody got assigned a senior who you had to fetch their water for. When I mean fetch, I mean like, yeah, walk up. I don't know, kilometer two kilometers with a pail on your head. I didn't have any of these skills, especially having done a stint in the UK. Now, then it would have been I'm assuming scary, horrifying. There were lots of tears, lots of year seven crying, but it's also given me major resilience. I don't think I would have probably have survived past the first two years in Australia if it wasn't for my experience in boarding school. Like I can really put that link together. So it's this kind of contrast. Yeah, absolutely, that's one that comes up pretty strong for me.

5:11 Yeah. I was reading about your experience at boarding school and it does sound horrifying. Why was it? Well, what was the reasoning your other siblings didn't go to boarding school? No? Yeah, what what I mean? Do you know did you ask him? Well, well, no, this is a great question, cas And you know, I was just feeling it yesterday. If there was a parent, I was going to ask questions who I would not fear being retributed or like kind of told to shush. It would be my dad, And sadly he's not here, which is why, you know, whenever I get the chance, I say, if there is a parent or anyone who's alive and you have questions, go ask them now while they're still here.

5:53 You know, I do. My relationship with my mum is a lot better. I have so much love and respect for her, but we don't necessarily see eye to eye. Think she probably finds my curiosity extremely challenging, probably doesn't understand why I just won't. Let things be. But I hmm, let's just hope she never listens to this podcast. But honestly, I personally think that I was sent to board in school as a punishment to my dad. Wow. I actually said this out loud yesterday. Punishment Dad. I believe I was Daddy's girl. I'm the first girl I believe. I'll not believe. I was very close to my dad as a young child, and Nigeria was getting quite difficult to live in and maintain cost of living and all of that, especially as the resources continue to be depleted, and so my mom and there would have probably been other reasons, so I just want to highlight this is my view. My mom would have taken my three younger sisters to the UK, and my dad was to have the other three, my two brothers and I. But for some reason, the boys got put in private school and day school so they were able to the driver was able to take them to school and back home. And it seems like a decision was made to put me on board in school. I mean, I sit down and think about it and think, how didn't you just take me to the UK? And look, I'm saying that as a mother myself, that can't have been easy for her.

7:16 And I don't know, maybe she thought my dad couldn't handle me with the boy. It just I still don't know, Cass, like we are having a live live session here on podcasts, but really don't know. But parts of me thinks part of it was potentially to hurt my dad because yeah, you wouldn't have had access to me. So this it was at this point that your parents were separating. Is that what was happening and your mum went to the UUK on culturally? Culturally we wouldn't have been classified as separated, have been classified as we need to do what we need to do. So I think as kids it would have been told we've just got to go make it work in yeah, yeah, in the UK. But once again, Cass, I'm still from that very close to generation that you just didn't speak about it and you didn't share with kids. And maybe at the time I could have got it, but I still don't know to date. And this is why I'm so interested in the work I do. Is how how long do we keep things as secrets? And do we just sit and wait for our kids to make I don't know the same mistakes or steps. I find it fascinating. Yeah, it is interesting when you have your own children, isn't it, and then you reflect. I do the same thing sometimes I look back at things that I was going through and then look at my daughter, and at the time I felt like, I don't know, so grown up or whatever, and I think I was a baby. Like it's yeah, it's it's heart breaking when you look back at yourself what you went through, isn't it when you see you're like your children? Yeah?

8:45 Yeah, yeah, you're almost. It's weird. It's like I only now have compassion for myself as a child because the thought of any of my kids going through or experience in what I did, which, yeah, which removes me from the whole process. It's yeah, really interesting. So you did survive two years in the boarding school. Yeah, before you came to my mum. Yeah, every year. Yeah, it was intense. I needed to get out of there and thankfully she got me out. Yeah. And then how was that coming to the UK into a like a day school. I mean, I was just happy to be with my sisters, you know. I was close to one sister in particular.

9:30 I'm actually in the UK next week for her fortieth and I was, Yeah, I was really close to us. I was just glad to be back there. I was just also really glad to just be able to put the tap on and not have to go to klum to go fetch my water to have a shower or bath. Definitely, the readjustment may have been a bit tricky, but I have no memory of any discomfort. I just kind of got on with it. I had quite a strong Nigerian accent at the time, so the British accent was always a little bit there, but obviously assimilate when I got when I was in Nigerian and there may have been, you know, maybe some challenges in school, but I was I was just glad to be there. I mean, we were six kids in the two bedroom flat.

10:11 We were living well. Life, life was life was great. I was really happy. I was happy to sleep on an airbed. And yeah, it's it's been a profound part of the rest, I guess, my entry into early adulthood. And you obviously, you know, you went along to eventually study mechanical engineering, which is kind of awesome, you know, I know, right, isn't it? It's very cood A few lives, it is. It is really cool. I'm now beginning to own own that a lot more than I have. It's it's pretty dope, and I think I have this this way of underplay and stuff. But yeah, I'm a mechanical engineer first class degree as well, so.

10:55 I know, right. And and I was just you know, I was looking back through your book, which honestly, I will talk about your book because I actually didn't hadn't realized that you'd written one. But it's a. Great read, and I haven't had the time to read all of it. But I was reading that. You know, you struggled initially, like you didn't get the marks that you wanted, and so there was some real resilience that you had to dig into to continue. Yeah, oh absolutely, I mean I think I was maybe relatively intelligent whatever that is, I don't know what the standard is, but I failed. I mean I really, if I had the choice, I would have done maths, biology, in chemistry. That's what I wanted to do. But apparently that well, teachers didn't think I could get the grades, and so they didn't let me do the subjects. I was never able to prove if I could or not, and then I didn't get the grades to even get into my regular degree. You kind of remember what I did want to do. So I had to do a foundation of engineering and I definitely felt that forty percent was the mark. I got thirty four. For some reason.

11:56 They led me through and was able to work my way through, and you know, I'd then climb up to a D grade and then it was a C grade in the second year and I had a year out and that it was I mean, I didn't have the language. Then I was like, come on, you can get a first. You just need a seventy one. And I pulled out all the stops. There was a lot of strategy of what's the best way for me to study and to absolutely ace it. So definitely didn't come easy. There was work, but I mean that victory at the end is so sweet. Yeah that it's taken me almost two decades to celebrate it. But yeah, why do you think that is. The imposter syndrome? I my version of imposter syndrome. You know, just did a little bit of research for some of the keynotes I do. Is my version of imposter syndrome.

12:43 There's a certain archetype and mine is the one. If I could do it, then it can't be that hard. Yeah, that's what mine is. And it's you know, I'm doing a pH d now. I mean, just before I came on, I need to submit my mid candidsture report and I had to say, yea me, are you aware that you're doing this? You are two years in, you've got one year down, Like, just don't overlook this, like really celebrate what you're doing, because there still is this thing of if I'm doing it, then it can't be that hard. And that's what I think that is. And here I was having failed is like I'm showing what's possible, but still thinking it's somebody else's story and not mine.

13:26 Yeah, that's interesting because I do a lot of working imposter syndrome. I became really interested in that. A couple of years ago, because it showed up so often with people and women that I work with, and I also recognized it in myself and really trying to understand like what is this And the way I describe it to people is you can have all the success on paper, but there's an inability to actually own that I did that, that that's a reflection on my competence and my capability and my intelligence and my grit and my resius alliance. It's because either I just have to work harder than everybody else I can do the work and get the marks, or I just got lucky somebody they must have just needed my money at the university. You said that in your book. Yeh, somebody took a shine to me. I was in the right place at the right time. So it's all this batting away all the good stuff is because of something outside of me, or because I just dug in and I have to work hard on other people who are the actual clever people. Correct, yeah, or and but if I fail, that's all on me, you know, like if I do something bad, like completely own that and have that reflect on my sense of my self worth and my competence. So it's this disparity in how we attribute and acknowledge success and failure.

14:45 Absolutely, it's true. If I failed, then it's all on me. If if I got through, it's just yeah fluke didn't. Yeah, businesses as well, Yeah yeah fluke. Yeah, yeah, I mean I remember when I I mean might come to but when I open my gym in the kay, it was the same thing. And I realized that was the reason why I didn't want to sell it. I didn't want to sell it in case it was a fluke that I happened to open up this business and I might not be able to do the same thing again. It was really liberating to figure that out and get rid of that story. Yeah, it is really interesting when you reflect on some of that because that because that's what keeps us stuck. That's what keeps us stuck in the overworking or the fear and the and the hiding and the stanks more.

15:28 Because it's Okay, I got lucky at that time. Yeah, you know, but my luck's going to run out. I can't count out, so there's nothing that you can hold on again, correct. Yeah, So yeah, let's talk about that. So mechanical engineering, yay, I bought a gym. So let's have multiple businesses. I understand you own or have find and run. Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's. Talk about that very different ones. Yeah, what do you want to know? Why? When I'm interested in people's stories. So the whole trajectory of how I came from. I've got out of university. I've worked really hard. I've got a first class.

16:08 Mechanical engineering degree. It so what I've worked for I know, Oh, by Jim, how did that come about? I'm you know, I don't do that many podcast interviews, but I love that I'm now becoming significantly more intentional in the ones, and I get to know me even more. So I want to thank you in case I didn't make that clear, just for this. Opportunity, thank you. I would have graduated two thousand and five and then I would have opened my gym twenty eighteen. So oh okay, so there's quite a gap that. Yeah, there is a gap. So I want to highlight that there is a gap. Did I think that I would be doing that at some point? No? Did I have entrepreneurial flare? Absolutely? In university I joined a group working with three other boys called Black Cases, and we used to run events and rapes at university, so there's always been something in me. The gym would have come about once I kind of realized as we have one life, like something kind of flipped in me, which was, well, hold up, if this really is the one life I have in this body and this circumstance, what are you doing? And then I was just kind of like, yeah, let's give it. Let's give it a good crack. I always wanted to open up a gym.

17:18 I remember wanting to open up a gym that had a crash because I used to struggle with finding somewhere I could work out and put my daughter in. But then coming to Australian seeing F forty five, I realized how much I actually loved community and that was really the big vibe of their forty five. And I for some reason figured that I know the geography of London better than Australia, even though I didn't live there anymore, and then had to battle with the limiting belief that said, yeah, me, you can't open up a business in a country you don't live. And so I did what I do best and started modeling and say, well, who's done it. Richard Branson was the first one that came to mind because I read his book, and you know, I worked in the rail industry and we always found it weird back then that you just got this dude who used to have planes now wanting to come into rail industry. And I thought, well, if he could do it, why can't I.

18:05 And I know that our resources were very different, but it was all mindset and I always wanted to do it. I wanted community. I knew Brixton in South London was becoming heavily gentrified, and I thought I could be a pillar of the community that can maybe bring rich diversity together. And it was just it was a dream that took off, not not without major hiccups, but probably my big my biggest birth in experience in adulthood outside of given birth to children. It really created a different version of me that I love so much. Opening a business is one thing. Doing it somewhere where you don't live like that is a whole other. Yeah, life of challenge.

18:47 It really really isn't really was. I guess that the slight blessing was the fact that was a franchise, so there was a model that you could mimic. I mean, I opened up a cafe in Australia. Can never remember twenty twenty maybe two twenty one, close that down. It was harder running that and I was in the same country than it was running the gym, So it's yeah, it just it varies once again. I learned. I learned enough about myself, but no more entrepreneuri pursuits for a little while. Piped down, Yeamy, piped. Down, so Yev. That's kind of the gist of the backstory with you. And now you are back doing a PhD. And now you are really you're working in the area of trauma and dealing you know, obviously this has been a process for you reflecting on and you to use the term cleaning up your own trauma and like helping to for other people to be able to do the same thing.

19:41 At what point did you was there a point or what was the process for you to get to where you are now with this focus on trauma? You know where? How did you sort of uncover that and decide that's where you needed to go. I think it would have been bubbling up in me for a good couple of years, but there have been a few things that would have happened that would have been a catalyst to say do something. So in twenty twenty might be in October, I released my first documentary title, Did I Choose My Trauma? It was not meant to be that. I was meant to do a documentary following my book Did You Get the Memo? Because I wanted to talk about life. But I had a brilliant business manager at the time who was like, maybe you should do something about trauma. But I still had this belief of no, no one wants to hear no victims, Let's keep it moving. There's no time for petty parties. So that was the view I still had on trauma stories. However, what got me doing it, and I mean, I don't know how you feel about trigger warnings, but just giving people their heads up for self care was earlier that year of twenty twenty, and she's given me her blessing to share this. I saw some marks on my daughter's wrist that kind of had me leave my body because they looked like welt that my ancestors would have had that I've seen from movies, and it was this weird thing that then I didn't have the language for. But I'm pretty confident I left my body like my mind.

21:08 I can't remember if things went into slow motion and I kind of went into business mode. Person, Okay, I need to get you to a therapist. I need you're going to go see someone. They needed to be a black woman because some of the stuff was to do with racism in Australia. But what happened was this therapist noticed something in me that obviously I wasn't aware and said, yeah, maybe you should see a psychologist. And it was when I spoke to the psychologist that I realized that transfering trauma doesn't necessarily mean you do what was done to you to somebody else. How you respond to it might actually be how you continue to respond to it when even if it's your children or some of your most loved ones. And that was when I believe something that was already bruining me started to have voice and agency, which is, oh, so if I don't look at my stuff, not only can it impact me, it can also impact how I respond to traumatic incidences that my children go through.

22:12 And because there's nothing small about, you know, the role I want to play in the world, I just really got interested in saying, well, how can the rest of the world get in on. This, hence PhD. Yeah, I'm striting. Well the documentary that I first did. Other document response to was not I didn't want to do the PhD. Cass, I really didn't. I mean, I've got a master's. I was like, I'm done, the master's almost finished me. I was like, this is too many words. I'm writing the engineering, brain lights, calculations and just keeping it moving. And I'm you know, Australia's gifted me this ability to connect I feel with my ancestors and for me where spirituality comes in.

22:57 And I kind of got this nudge and guidance of no, we need to study. And the next form of study was a PhD. And I remember kind of having this in a dialogue, saying, well, if I do a PhD. Well, first, I was like, it's four years and they were like, this is going to be your life's work. What was four years? I was like, okay, to show I hear you so, and then I said, well, if I'm going to do it, then I need to be able to do it documentary style because I want to use the creative side of my brain and I don't want everything to be about words and calculations and honestly that the signs just came through really easy. I knew I had to find the right supervisors. I found them in La Trobe and they said, yeah, it's going to be an art based research and you can do it. And you know, it's started to have wings.

23:41 I started recording two weeks ago, and I'm looking at the transformation of cultural trauma through the process of making a documentary but with a decolonized lens. And it's just as juicy as excited to contribute to this field. And I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think research will probably be part of my contribution for a long time. Oh there's so much good stuff that you have just said there, yummy, So you had to go through a process. It's I mean, first of all, just to acknowledge that that attitude of nobody wants a pity party, like just crack on, very English term that just crack on, and I just crack on, you know, keep it moving, and this very let linear kind of left brain like nobody wants to look at it, not just because oh nobody wants to hear that, but also I don't want to look at that. It's it's frightening and it's a bit confronting to look at that sort of stuff even in your own life. So absolutely, that's obviously a real shift for you to to stop and to turn around to do that work and to really look at your own history with the view to you know, being able to make sure that you don't transfer that to your own kids.

24:53 So what was that process for you? Was it you know, therapy? Like what sort of things did you need to do to work through your own own trauma? I think the first one would have been writing it in my book, so I'd gotten comfortable with speaking about it. And this is the gift once again that Australia gave me. You know, all my siblings, what most of my siblings are in the UK and I've got one in Nigeria, so I haven't had the family dynamics and paradigm to you know, squash or not give me the space to explore things like you know, I had one of my sisters, I had a chat with her last week and she said, you know, Sis, you almost speak in a different language like I think they probably just kind of here in Nema stay now mustaynmastay come out of my mouth, which and I don't think it's thrown as an insult, but that we're in different well when different stages, different parts of the world. I mean, I don't know how long you've been there, but it's very, very, very fast paced, and you know, we don't always necessarily have that luxury of slightly more calmness in Australia. So for me, it was actually getting comfortable to speaking about it. First I it in my book, then I got invited to do the Ted Talk, then I did my documentary and so my profile started to build a bit more. So what it did was I started to get more comfortable in using my voice, and I started to find that where my agency lined, like I knew, I wasn't a ah, you did this.

26:19 You know. Once again, rage, sacred rage from some of the people I follow is valid. It's understandable, and who knows, it might come up for me, but that wasn't That's not the role I think I'm here to play in this work. And yeah, I just I got reaffirmed and got okay with speaking about it. I still think maybe some close people still don't get it. They still think it's me just talking about what happened to me. Whereas I'm saying, actually, what happened to me is making me want to create the space for people to acknowledge what happened to them, but to then start doing the work and if should they feel like it, start contributing back. Yeah, were you're family aware of the sexual abuse that you experienced, because that's a big obstacle for many people to speak up about what happened, because then the closest people to them, who maybe have they've never told or knew.

27:07 Yeah. I thought for a long time that when I was young, at seven eight, where the memories are stronger, I definitely felt like some knew. But when this uncle came back again in two thousand and twelve or whenever it was, and I found out he was looking after one of my nieces, obviously I was older. I started calling all of them, and I think one or two of my siblings thought, I think I remember this happening. But you know that my siblings, if I don't bring it up, they're not going to bring it up. But then when I spoke to my auntie, she said we'd heard stuff about him, So I think people knew. People knew he had that tendency, whether they knew about my story, especially as I hadn't said it for pretty much all of my adult life, it wouldn't have had any resons.

27:56 But what was quite interesting was that me saying it in my early thirty didn't look like it was going to change much, and in fact didn't. Yes, it may have made a few people uncomfortable, may have actually fractured some relationships till today that aren't the same. But did it do anything where there was some sort of you know, conversation. You know, I'm actually a bit disappointed in what I'm calling the matriarch in the family, But then that means I'm going to need to hold myself to similar account at some point. Is it the role of the matriarch's question marks? This is where my curiosity continues to live so not so much that maybe people didn't listen to me as young yemmy, but listen to me it is thirty year old yemy. Yeah, and what was happening to this other smaller Yeah, that's and that's where it once again maybe started to form in my head of Okay, this is an issue that is not just in the nuclear family, it's also community because there were other things that went on that made me think, oh wow, this isn't just me. This happens to a lot of people.

29:04 You've talked about and a lot of the work that you do. You know, you mentioned before mindset, you talk about you know, these stories that you have about who am I to do this work? And so I think you know that the limiting beliefs for one of a better expression, you know, the limited beliefs that we will adopt, you know, we at some point confront those, transform them, do work around them. The other thing to do with trauma, which particularly interests me, is the way it impacts your nervous system. Yeah you know this obviously, but you know trauma and I've heard you talk about it too, the way that you have a visceral response, your whole body will respond. I'm curious to know, like in your own kind of trauma transformation, trauma recovery, Like, were there things that you have done in that area, like in terms of like that somatic kind of body based healing.

29:58 Yeah, I still think I'm in the early stages. So I'm currently doing a course on sematic embodiment emotional freedom. Is it technical or taping that I always find very useful for me just to bring me back in my body. What I didn't realize is because I love dancing, that's a big thing for me. Like that, I don't know. It's I mean, put me anywhere where someone starts beating the drum, my body will move without my permission. But one thing that's just come up as you're sharing it. I was at an event and I did She's got a show on Netflix. I was at one of her things and it was pole dancing. But let's take away the heaviness we've attached to it. It was more sensual and I got really emotional. So that's probably the deepest And I keep on being called to go back, but I think I need to do it first without anybody else in the room, without a group where And it's not necessarily about the pole, but it's for me. It was nice to have something to kind of just like hold onto because when I go back to that feeling, I wanted to be as liberated as the women that were dancing. It showed that I am actually still very uncomfortable in my body and owning it. So that's actually an activity that I think would be really liberating for me.

31:21 And similarly, I went to Costa Rica earlier this year, as I started to take an interest in indigenous plant medicines, and they had a dance liberation process which I have a mask on my face and they just play music, and because I can't see anybody, I let loose. But I have someone who guides me in and that sematically was wonderful for me to release stuff. I know I want to do more on there. But outside of that, yeah, I haven't investigated as much for my own for my own personal healing. It's fascinating, though, isn't it. I mean, the way that our we need to move our body, And I mean, I'm a psychologist, so I spent my all of my training learning that you just you know, what are the what's the story you're telling yourself, what's the belief? And change the belief. And I've always found that so frustrating.

32:14 I always felt like I was banging my own head against the wall and almost banging my client's. He's against them all something because number one. Takes a lot. You got just instantly know what your limiting beliefs are because they're so kind of dormant, they're so unconscious to us, like it's a real process. To be tuned in and observant to those stories that we tell ourselves and the trauma lives in it. It activates a different part of our brain. So this is why I get I mean, excited's probably the wrong word, but I guess maybe relieved to know there's another way and to understand that actually there are all of these things that can be helpful for shifting and healing that just involve that body base physical.

33:00 Yeah, because there is a paywall I think when it comes to therapy in the most Eurocentric and Western way. I mean a great a good friend of mine, doctor Jennifer Mullan has just literally about a couple of days ago, released a book called Decolonizing Therapy, and she's she clin course psychologist. She's definitely in the psychotherapy world because it is that it's how can we bring in other practices And I love the idea that we get rid of this paywall because we're all all going to need some sort of relief from the distress and events that happened to our sar generations in the world. Totally totally agree just on that too, because I studied tapping.

33:43 I did, of course in e F T. Tapping I teach people tapping as well, but I'm actually just doing a just an online course on trauma therapy through yoga basically like yoga poses and movements that can how that impacts with the poly bagel kind of vegus nerve. Yeah, activating the vegus nerve, all of that sort of stuff for trauma healing. So it's interesting stuff. There's I think there's and it's accessible to everybody, Like that's the thing that it's accessible to everybody's if you know what it is that you're doing. But going I guess going back Yemmy to the idea about limiting beliefs, they do take a bit of work to uncover. But I guess, just for listeners, what were some of the things that you ultimately sort of identified were holding you back in terms of what you believed you were capable of. You know, what were some of your kind of limiting stories that you were telling yourself that you eventually realized, Oh, hang on a second, this is potentially not true, This is not reality. Because I know listeners will have their own and it's helpful sometimes to hear other people vocalize them.

34:51 I said this today, I delivered a keynote earlier today, and I had a really big limiting belief that as a single parent, that I could only bring in the money of a single income household like cas Like now, it blows my mind. Why was I limited to that? And obviously it's because it's where it always focused my attention. I didn't know any other paradigm than a two parent household, and even and I already thought I was breaking that paradigm as an engineer and someone who is bringing money in. But what happened was the limiting belief was, Okay, we're going to struggle. I'm not going to be able to take the kids on holiday back to the UK or to America to go see their dads. Like I really had adopted it. And something happened and I thought, hold on, am I really going to own this story? I mean, you just moved from the UK to Australia and you are chatting the same stuff you were chatting when you were in government housing in the UK. You're telling me you've come to the other side and this is the same story. What if there's another story? And I got so curious, and you know, something kind of had the minute I challenged that belief. It was like, I don't know, some team elsewhere just started saying, Okay, we're going to put you in touch with this person. I'd speak to that person about setting up my own business, getting my first contract with the government income being twenty x. And I'm not exaggerate just but I obviously had to do the work because I took risks. But then that was

36:22 the other thing. And who am I am? I the version of Yemi who's willing to take yes, calculated risks to get what she wants. Yeah, and I'm enjoying the ride. It freaks the hell out of me sometimes, but I'm enjoying the ride. That's amazing, isn't it true? Though? Like they they're just bubbling away there and they're running the show. You know that they're directing all of our decisions, all of the things that we do. And when that light bulb comes on and you realize, hold on a second, yeah. Exactly, exactly exactly that WTF. But they're running the ripped consciously and unconsciously. I think that's what's really scary. Yeah, that's what's really scary is that it almost feels like somebody else is running I don't know, running my software.

37:12 But then the minute you kind of see and so it's something I try to apply to every time I'm in a place of discomfort. I come back and reactivate this and say, Okay, where does this believe come from, and what makes you think it's true? And how is it serving you? I go through it. But now it's just become such a practice that I can do it a lot quicker than I've probably ever done before. Yeah, definitely, definitely, you know, it's really worth doing. I just like the fact that now that we have got a multi layered approach to this healing and becoming our fullest versions of ourselves that don't just involve us using this front part of our brain, but actually we have access to all of this intelligence that lives in our body. And I love that you talk so openly to about this like spiritual like these ancestors or you know, these nudges of intuition, because that's an the whole layer. That's another whole resource that so many people don't choose not to, don't realize that they don't tap into.

38:08 And it's correct. Yeah, I find it sad, and I know that this would be a question of belief and some people might say, well, I don't know who my ancestors are, and that's where the curiosity. That's what I'm saying, Get curious, Get get curious. I mean, let's just even go one generation away. If someone has lost a parent, a grandma and nonna. You know, every now and again, something happens. You hear a song, you smell the food they used to cook, and it takes you back and you embody this. But what happens is you quickly brush it off and say, no, that's silly. They can't be anything to it. And that's that's why somatic embodiment is in is really interesting because we've disembodied ourselves a lot of us and you know, you've obviously got indigenous cultures, but some people who feel they don't have cultures sometimes are the most lost. And I'm saying, stop, get curious, get really curious.

38:53 Yeah, you talk about rebellious curiosity. Can you what does that mean? Rebellious curiosity? I mean, I feel like it's a love. I came up with it because people can't understand what I was, who I am, what I do, and mean you just said it. I'm a mechanical engineer. I had a gym cafe doing documentaries because people are struggling to put me into a box. And so when it came to delivering keynote, say well, what does you have me talk about? She said, Well, she's a curious rebel. It's how can we do anything in everything we want to do? So rebellious curiosity honestly is about challenging status quo. But starting with yourself. We are always trying to start with somebody else. Just start with yourself. What narrative have you adopted inherited that you possibly could give the side eye to and get curious about it and just say, hold up, this doesn't sound right, and it's going to be uncomfortable.

39:50 What did I read the patriarchs? I forget the author's name. She says something at the end of the book, a very long book. She gives the history. It's really imp sieve and says, this is going to be uncomfortable. Any change, and you know, not just about patriarchy, but any change is uncomfortable because you have to lift up every rock and see something again. Rebetlly's curiosity is uncomfortable. Might find some I don't know, stuff you don't want to see. But once again, liberation. That's what I think Rebetty's curiosity brings liberation. I was just listening to one of Glennan Doyle's podcasts. I shouldn't suggest, say Glennon Doyle, Glennon Abby and Amanda, because the three of them do that podcast. Now, you know.

40:31 One of her favorite phrases is there's no such thing as one white liberation, like liberate yourself and liberate everybody around you, because people around you can't help but be changed. When you changed, you change the whole dynamic. Yeah. Yeah, and you don't. And if we do it really smartly, we don't actually have to exert it unto anybody. We just be yeah, and they see it. And I've definitely been able to I think been able to do that by being here in Australia. So when I go back to the UK, I think people just either just watch me or they just experienced it. I don't have to say, well you can do this, you can do that, They just witness it. Yeah, how long have you been in Australia By the way, it's. Coming up to ten years, so April twenty twenty four be ten years. Yeah, yeah, ten year years. So my son would have been seven months old when we got here. Wow, seven years old, yeah, and now sixteen and ten year old.

41:24 We've only been here, not even eighteen months yet. We moved over July last year. So when you to the UK and it. Sounds well for first time ever living there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So we've been here for a couple of days holiday, but no first time living here. And it was quite last minute. It was an opportunity that came up for my husband and it was a bit of a three months sort of notice period basically to pack up a house, sell the cars, rehome the cat, we brought the dogs. And I'm glad about. That because I always say that if I had too much time to overthink it, I might have said this is a bad idea. And I'm really glad that we're here. We're not here forever, but it's a great experience. Yeah. Experiential living is definitely something I've brought into this lifetime, which is probably why I've made quite a few mistakes.

42:10 But you know, you're living, you learn. But I think experiential living is Yeah, I think it's the way most of us should try a bit more. If we if we became fear less of failing. It sounds like that's a really that's a big part of your story, and your message isn't it is too is to you don't have to tick all the boxes. And if you feel dissatisfied just ticking the boxer doing what everybody expects you to do, just be a bit curious about what are the what are the other options? Correct? And there will be there, There will be. Have you ever been on I mean, if you've been on a plane, you've got the privilege of being on a plane and you look down and you just think, wow, not that it's insignificant, but there's so much more I don't know, and I don't even understand. There's there's a lot we don't understand, and I usually find them experiences allow you to to find out a bit more of what you don't know.

42:56 So Yeamy, you've done the work. You're doing the work on yourself and your own trauma. But clearly you feel like there is a greater mission here, which is to help other people or maybe open other people's eyes to the possibility that maybe they might want to clean up some of their own Why. I see how you say that delicately, But yes, people have a look at the work. So why is it important? Why do you believe it's so important for everybody to do their to do their work? Well, I just think we're going to put ourselves into some really uncomfortable form of extinction. I always talk about David Attenborn. He talks about the planet and I love his shows, and you know, I've kind of looked at the history. In the last kind of like decade, he started to make reference to the humans and the role they play. I think we're asking sick people to look after a planet, and I include myself in that. I continue to do the work. I do not think I'm any better than anyone else, but we're asking people who have immense traumas. If you just look at the word, I mean the world, you know, even I vicaire is trauma, which I know is relatively new in terms of the language of me ever hearing it. It's something that's now being picked up, but to be honest, was probably always there.

44:13 It's just PS academias decided to give it a voice. We're going to need to find a way. Like I went to the United Nations earlier this year and just looking at the sustainable goals and there's one unsustainability, and I think humans need to be in there, sustainability of humanity. We have so many things around the world, and yes we have privileges and luxuries, but you're asking unwell people to make major decisions, and this has to be I mean, every leader should be going through some sort of initiation where they're cleaning their trauma so that what happened to them as a baby or their mother, or their wife or their husband isn't the same way they then treat all their members of staff, or how they make decisions on you know, whether women should have access or autonomy of their bodies. You know, it's you know, I feel like I'm rambling, but it just it's really clear to me that this has to be a priority. It has to be one of the sustainable goals. It has to be language we use. There's no point just waiting for all the different fires. It is a fire. It needs to be prioritized. So my invitation is to sustain humanity because we're the custodians of the planet and nobody's coming to save us.

45:29 Yeah, no, no, I couldn't agree more. And you're so right. I look around at some of the world leaders, the deeply troubled, deeply troubled people, Yeah, making the rules and making the decisions that impact all of us. Yeah, and the planet. Yeah. Terrifying, Actually it is. It is, I mean terrifying for us in this the generation we're in, but then terrifying for the kids we're leaving behind. Like, if you think leaving the house and whatever whatever for your kids, you should really be preparing them for different cycles and even if it's repetitive going around, give them the tools to deal with it, to deal with the stuff that is likely to continue to happen because history leaves clues. But I wanted to go back to this point of I'm all for equality on all levels, but no point having equality if we're just going to have people blowing their dirty trauma through, Like I really want to challenge that. Yes, let's have more women, Yes let's have more bipop, more marginalized groups voices, But if you haven't cleaned your trauma, you're coming back to do the same shit that has been done for decades and centuries.

46:32 Make it make sense, That's what I'm saying, And it's got to be cleaning our trauma. Yeah, I think that's a really really important, important message and a powerful mission. Yeah me, a fully fully support fully support that. I think you see, you know, all around you see, just on a micro level, just on social media, you know, just looking at people's responses to post, what people's reactions. Just the lack of I'm probably getting a my high horse now, but you know, just the lack of consciousness, the lack of self awareness and the inability to self monitor and self.

47:13 Regular regulate too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And so therefore I'm just blasting projecting everything all over everybody with just abandoned like it's it is just so damaging. It's not sustainable. But then I say that, thinking, but yeah, me, are you in your echo chamber? Because I bet you there's a generation somewhere still alive saying, oh, look at these fools. If only they knew that this is what happened back then, and they're making noise. Just sit like you know. That's why sometimes I just want to go get like tribes, like I want to do documentaries like David Attenborough, but go to different parts of the world and seek the wisdom of elders, some who just say, oh no, we just wait, this is cycle what happens if we put all this knowledge together on these distressing events.

47:57 You know, some people think given birth is traumatic. What a different way to label the meaning of trauma and therefore potentially how we could heal it or transform it. That there's there's wisdom. I just don't think. I still think we're too fragmented to get our shit together and actually try to start getting some of the solutions by actually speaking to each other. I did want to ask you because you're studying trauma transformation through a decolonizing lens, and just would like you to share what what does it mean to decolonize trauma? One of the definitions I like the most is to delink ourselves from a dominant narrative. You know, Chimamanda Diya did this ted talk ages ago, the danger of the single story. You know, there's usually one dominant story that runs, and I know more recently the focus has been on men and and that is the case for making decisions, especially at a world scale. It goes, it goes beyond that.

48:53 To decolonize is to reindigenize. Sorry there was there was an uncomfortable face because I'm still dealing with that. It's to reindigenize and The reason why I get uncomfortable saying is because sometimes that can automatically create this divide of well, I'm not indigenous, so then what can I do? And part of my voice to this conversation is, actually we need everybody. You know, some of us might need to go back and look into the history of where we've come from. And I mean, what do you do if you are in a family that someone in there has been the perpetrator, the abuser, the molester. Like part of cleaning trauma is figuring out, well, who am I and what do I become from being part of that?

49:36 I don't know. You could be part of a family that was part of the colonizer. You can still decolonize by not continuing in the practices, by not using the blueprint that appears to have been used to dominate takeover power over as opposed to power with. So to decolonize has so many layers, but simply is to delink from the dominant narrative that there's only one way to do things and to be and that will require curiosity in investigating what else is there? For instance, you know, people talk about intergeneration or trauma going about fourteen generations. What about that wisdom into generational wisdom. How are we going to leave all of that good juice behind? So decolonizing is to really step down from what I think has currently built all the systems in the world, and like I said, it will be uncomfortable but be extremely liberating for us and for those we leave behind.

50:29 We've covered a lot of ground in this conversation. I'm just wondering if there is one last message that you would like to leave with listeners as they go forward from here. I think one thing I will probably want to share from going crappy to happy is to give yourself grace. When I deliver keynotes or any workshops, I usually have a small print and I ask people for grace. I tell them that in all the learning, I'm trying to do a lot of unlearning. And what I've realized is that sometimes I can be exclusive in my language, in my vocabulary, or even the way I show up. And to give me grace is to assume that I do not intend to harm you, to just from human to human to give me that. So I would love to share with people to give yourself grace and where you can give other people grace. But I also invite you to not just do the work, but be the work.

51:19 And if you don't even know where to start, just start with acknowledgment. If your mind doesn't tell you, your body will tell you, and just get curious. But grace some love, more grace, more grace, and then to more love. Perfect. I love that. Yeah, Mey, thank you so much for having this conversation with me today. I have really enjoyed it, and I appreciate all the work that you do and I can't wait to see what you do next. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you so much for having me. Yeah, it's been a joy. I feel we should have more conversations regardless. I feel like we should. I feel like we should. I say this at the end of as you. I've said it at the end of a few podcasts lately. Can I get back together? Can we do this again?

52:06 You can find out more about Yemmy and her work at yemipenn dot com. Her book is called Did You Get the Memo, and her first documentary was called Did I Choose My Trauma? Obviously, you can catch up with me my website iscast done dot com. Thanks so much for being here, and as always, I cannot wait to catch you on the next episode of Crappy to Happy.