Feb. 8, 2024

Cracking the Code on Relationships with Dr Sue Johnson

Cracking the Code on Relationships with Dr Sue Johnson
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Cracking the Code on Relationships with Dr Sue Johnson
Cracking the Code on Relationships with Dr Sue Johnson
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Season 11 Relationships Personal Growth & Healing

Dr Sue Johnson is a psychologist, author, a pioneer in the psychology of relationships and the creator of Emotionally Focused therapy, which focuses on creating secure emotional bonds between partners. EFT is widely acknowledged as the gold standard in evidence-based couples therapy. Dr Sue emphasises the importance of vulnerability and emotional safety in relationships, and shares how EFT can help couples navigate their patterns of distress and create positive cycles of interaction.Sue also discusses the importance of individuals practicing EFT on their own and the importance of addressing attachment issues. She highlights the challenges faced by clients with limited emotional vocabulary and the role of therapists in helping them understand and validate their feelings. To find out more about Dr Sue Johnson's work visit:www.iceeft.comwww.holdmetight.com
Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com www.instagram.com/crappytohappypodwww.tiktok.com/crappytohappypodJoin the free 7-day Happiness Challenge:www.cassdunn.com/happinessYour feedback is important!To receive a FREE subscription to Beyond Happy, the subscriber only podcast and community, please take a minute to fill in our listener survey so we can keep making the show the best it can be. Note: Updated link (this is a Google form where your email address is optional).https://forms.gle/tmmuaKgn82c8TKjZA

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Transcript
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Just a heads up that my guest this week, who

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is a therapist, briefly makes reference to a client she

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worked with who had experienced childhood sexual abuse. So if

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that is a topic that's triggering for you, you might

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want to skip this one. If it's helpful to hear

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what her experience was and how Sue worked with her,

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then listening. This is Crappita Happy and I am your host,

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Cas Dunn. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist. I'm mindfulness

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meditation teacher and of course author of the Crappita Happy books.

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In this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring,

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intelligent people who are experts in their field and who

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have something of value to share that will help you

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feel less crappy and more happy. Doctor Sue Johnson is

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a clinical psychologist, best selling author, distinguished research professor, and

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most importantly, she is the creator of emotionally focused Therapy,

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which is widely acknowledged as the gold standard in tested

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and proven couple's therapy. Sue's work was groundbreaking when she

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first made the link in her early career between attachment

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theory and adult relationships, and yet, as you will hear

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her explain, she was professionally ridiculed when she shared that

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idea with colleagues.

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Of course she was.

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She's a woman, what could she possibly know. Well, she

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now has decades of experience and research and treatment outcomes

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to prove that Yep, she was right all along. I

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have personally been a fan of Sue's work for decades.

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I have all of her books, I.

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Have taken her training. I couldn't be more excited to

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introduce you to the incredible doctor Sue Johnson. So, Sue Johnson,

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it is such a pleasure to have you on the

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Crappy to Happy Podcast. Thank you for being here today.

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You're most most welcome. I love your type, and I

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think actually talking about turning a distressed relationship to into

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a less distressed one is a very good way to

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go from crappy to happy.

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Actually, so I would agree, and very appropriate. So I

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am a psychologist myself, and the things that I'm most

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interested in as a psychologist are mindfulness and attachment. So

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one of the very first professional development trainings that I

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did when I first registered as a psychologist was your

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EFT for couples, because it seemed so perfect to me,

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so just profound that we should bring this idea of

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attachment into adult relationships. But I wanted to say to you,

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by the way full disclosure turned out, I'm not I

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don't really want to do couple's therapy, but I still

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think it's profound and everybody should have an understanding of this.

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I think for me, by the time I came through,

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it seemed kind of obvious that attachment would inform couple

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relationships and adult relationships. But was that the case when

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you kind of stumbledon this or was it a new idea?

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Oh, adult attachment absolutely was not. You know, I mean

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you look, I look at it, and I say, it's obvious.

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Everything in life is obvious once you've discovered it. You know,

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it's in hindsight. Yes, it's obvious. You know, we talk

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about atoms. It's obvious that they're they're there somewhere. You know,

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I can't see them, but I believe they're there. Well,

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you know, if you'd spoken about it three hundred years ago,

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people would probably burned you as a witch and said,

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you know you're you're crazy. So it is obvious. But

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you know, when I first started talking about it with couples,

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it was absolutely one of the most unpopular things that

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I could have come out. In fact, I said to

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my husband, it seems that I always discover truths for me.

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They're truths that really tick other people off, and that

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don't you know, other people don't like. So adult attachment

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was one of those. The idea was attachment was all

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about my child. It wasn't even about father and child.

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It was all about mother and child. And of course

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John Balby only had one lifetime and he had only

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had time to look at all these incredible interactions between

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mother and child and see the patterns in them and

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see the effect of those patterns. And you could say,

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that's what science is. It's finding a pattern, looking for

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a pattern, finding a pattern, and then coming up with

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an explanation of a pattern. And you know, he saw

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these patterns with his colleague Mary Ainsworth in this dance

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between a mother and child, and he started to talk

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about the impact of these patterns, which was, I mean,

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I'm not that old. And even when I was a child,

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good parenting was about, you know, making sure your kid

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had something to eat, and you know, giving them a

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bath at night and putting them to bed and not

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smacking them too hard when they were naughty and that

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was good parenting. And you know, the whole idea that

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kids needed to be held and talked to and feel special,

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know they could count on you was sort of what.

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You know. It's like life was about survival and who

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had time for that? And even the upper classes didn't

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have time for it. They had nannies. So it was

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all about mothers and children, and it was pretty minimal

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recognition at that But then really it didn't hit till

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the beginning of this century that people started talking about

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adult attachment. But I was talking about it a good

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twelve years before that and getting my articles rejected, and

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not just rejected, but pages of is that right? Oh yeah?

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Pages of This woman is crazy. If you cast your

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mind back, you look at some of that old literature,

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it's all about differentiation, individuation. If you were too close

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to anybody, including your kid, it was codependency, which was

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a word taken from addiction literature. You know, it was bad.

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In other words, too much closeness was bad. You couldn't

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figure out who you were other people were too close

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and you had to be separate and independent. And adolescence

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was all about becoming independent, you know, And this was

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this separateness was the name of the game, the name

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of the developmental game. So for Bolby to come along

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and say no, if you look at the way we

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develop as human beings, we're connected. Our main instinct isn't

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aggression or aggression or sex. Basically, it's the need for

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connection with other people, a few special lovers who will

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come when we call, because life is huge and dangerous

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and difficult for all of us, and being alone in

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and of itself is terrifying. I mean, people just said,

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you're just talking about mental illness. You're just talking about

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you know, if adults feel this, then they're mentally ill.

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They're not. You're because you're supposed to be separate. I've

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had I had people in the beginning walk out of

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my classes and my lectures saying that I was creating codependency,

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fusion symbiosis, you know, And the research is very clear

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belonging leads to becoming. So actually, you have a stronger

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sense of self, you have a stronger ability to be

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independent and separate if you have a secure sense of

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connection with other people. You know, it's obvious, really, if

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I know that, if I'm in real trouble, if I

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call and I say, cass come if I know that

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you'll come. You know, it's like I can tolerate stress

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that I can't use to tolerate. I can look out

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into the world and it's not quite so scary. I can.

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But if I believe that I'll call and no one

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will come. But we love the Rambo movie idea, you know,

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we love, you know, even now with women heroes. We

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love Superwoman, we love the the you know, the person

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who is invulnerable, Well, we love that and it's a

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wonderful fantasy. But of course it's important to remember that

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it's complete rock and that, you know, the bottom line

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is we need other people and the connection with others

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is our main survival code as human beings. To know

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you matter to another human being is the best antidepression,

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anti anxiety pill I've ever come across, you know. So

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we noticed that when we started working with distressed couples

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and changing their relationship, not only did the relationship change,

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not only did the dance change, but the dancers changed.

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The people grew as individuals, they grew. So, yeah, attachment

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was adult attachment was very unpopular. Indeed, except for the

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last twenty five or so years and it's still I think,

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you know, I feel like it should be all over

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the New York Times. It should be Well, we've cracked

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the code of love. We know, we understand what loves about.

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We understand what children need, we understand what adults need

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to be strong. We understand that a loneeness is the

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best recipe for misery, depression, anxiety and despair. You know,

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And we're twigging in this in this world gradually that

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isolation is a killer for people. We're twigging. England's got

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a Minister of isolation or is it called that Minister

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of loneliness Minister of imagine having a Minister of loneliness.

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But you know, we're getting there gradually, but still for

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lots of people, the idea that we really need others,

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and we need one or two others that we know

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will come when we call is still a kind of

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idea that it's hard for them to wrap their heads around.

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You were into control and power and the independence.

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How this idea first kind of come to you in

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your work with couples too, so we bob become along

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with attachment, and like you said, it was very much

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around mothers and children and that was groundbreaking at the time, obviously,

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but then when was there a moment when you kind

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of thought, this is the key when you're working with couples.

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And I talk about this in my work and I

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always feel a bit foolish when I talk about it, actually,

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because I'd done this study, which for a graduate student

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thesis was a totally ridiculous study. Okay, it was so ambitious.

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It was I don't know where I was when I

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was a graduate student. I was on fire. I was insane.

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We'd written up this little manual. I decide to do

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an outcome study. Any graduate student who all by themselves

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decides to do a treatment outcome study should be locked up.

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You know, it's crazy. But anyway, I did it, and

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the results blew my mind. But what I say is

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I didn't really know why I was getting these incredible results,

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because results in couple's therapy at the time were pretty

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meager and pretty you know, they weren't Couples therapy was

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not showing itself to be an effective intervention. And you know,

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people would teach negotiation skills, well, they work until you're

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really upset, and then they don't work at all. And

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you know, people would teach insight into your past and

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that you were projecting onto your spouse. Well, INSIGHT's okay,

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But again, when you're standing on the edge of a cliff,

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you know it's it's not it doesn't really cut it.

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So you know, we were creating these We were helping

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people deal with their emotions differently and have changed the

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emotional music and talk to each other in a way

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that pulled the other person closer and it was working.

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It was like it had this incredible effect. But you know,

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apart from saying, well, I know how powerful emotion is,

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and that's what Rogers talked about, by the way, we

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did too. That's what Rogers talked about. And you know,

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a good experiential therapist goes for emotion, listens to emotion, tracks, emotion,

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uses emotion, believes that change is all about a corrective

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emotional experience, you know, And the research on psychotherapy outcome,

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by the way, says that a thousand times that it

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doesn't matter what model you're using. If you look at

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the people who change versus the people who don't, other

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people who change, and the people who get really emotionally

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involved in the therapy, it starts to really mean something

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to them, their emotions change, So we knew that these

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emotions were changing. We knew that people were having these incredible,

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you know, emotional interactions which they couldn't have at all

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at the beginning. But that was sort of it. And

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then I went to a conference and I talk about

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this in my work quite a few times because it

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was so it was sort of the classic epiphany, right,

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That's why it's so corny. That's why I feel so

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foolish when I talk about it. But you know, I'm

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I'm in a bar, of all places, I grew up

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in a pub, right, so it's it's significant that I'm

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sitting in a bar. And I've been listening to Neil Jacobson,

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who was the big star of Couple's Therapy back then,

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and he'd been saying that an adult relationship is a deal.

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It's a contract. It's a deal, and you can make

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a deal for anything. You can negotiate to have affairs

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and not tell your partner you can negotiate for anything

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at all. Right, it's a deal, and what you have

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to do to have a happy relationship is teach people

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how to negotiate. Well, I knew this was rot right, okay,

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I said, love is all about the things you can't

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negotiate for, Like, you know, I'll give you three hugs

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if you give me. You know, it doesn't work. Okay.

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So I was sitting there and my colleague said to me, well,

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if a relationship isn't a bargain, if it's not a

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bargain and a deal, what is it? And I said,

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don't be ridiculous. It's a bond. It's an emotional bond.

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And as I said that, just that word, the whole

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of John Balby and all the books i'd read that

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i'd only related to mother an infant came literally like

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tickety tickety tickety to I said, Oh my god, we're

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taking people into bonding conversations. That's why we're having these

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huge effects, and that's why people respond to them the

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way they do. And then the next thought, which was

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even more outrageous, Oh my god, this is what romantic

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love is all about. John Balby said, attachment goes from

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the cradle to the grave, and a romantic love is

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another form of love, and it's all about bonding. And

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that's a lot about what sex is all about too.

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In our society, we talk about sex as recreation, stimulation,

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all things, and you've got to have novelty and you know,

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and if you're close to somebody, you're going to be

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bored and all this nonsense, and we hardly ever talk

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about the fact that it's a supreme bonding device. There's

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a reason why when you have an orgasm, you're flooded

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with oxytocin, which is a bonding hormone. I mean nature,

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Do you think nature just does that for fun? So

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that was the big insight, and then I just got

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kind a sort of passionate kind of person. So I

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just got obsessed with adult attachment and started writing all

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kinds of articles that were soundly rejected. And it's basically told, oh,

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all kinds of interesting things like I was a naive,

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a naive little Canadian. Little notice I'm female, so naive

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little Canadian professor who didn't understand individuation, separation. Bobby understood

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it very well. You basically said, the more connected you are,

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the more separate can be. He understood it very well.

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And attachment is the best developmental theory of personality and

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relationships that we've ever come up with as human beings.

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It tells us who we are so to use it

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in therapy for me is obvious. It gives us a map.

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So then I started actively trying to use attachment, and

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gradually the social psychologist like Phil Shaverer at Davis in California,

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they started writing about ad our attachment, and gradually, gradually

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people started asking curious questions instead of standing up and

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telling me that I was creating fusion and symbiosis.

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And so it's true though what you said about how

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at the time, and I think even recently. I mean,

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like I said, I'm not a couple's therapist necessarily, but

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a lot of couple's therapy doesn't work. So do you

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think that is because a lot of couple's therapy that

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doesn't work is focusing on on this negotiation and communication?

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And can you blame for the listeners who might not

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be familiar with EFT, Like, how is the EFT approach,

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the emotionally focused therapy for couples which you created, How

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is that approach different for couples who might be in

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distress and at their wits end? About how do I

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resolve this?

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Well? After our thirty five or so research studies, you

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EFT is massively researched. We have. You don't have to

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believe me when I tell you it works. I mean,

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it's it's very very clear to us. We have a

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clear way of understanding the patterns, the cycles that of

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distress that we all get caught in at times, but

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that distressed couples are completely stuck in, and we have

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a very clear idea of the impact of those cycles,

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how to help people out of them, and then how

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to create positive cycles of interaction, how to create a

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new dance. And it's not about teaching skills per se

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or negotiating or making a deal. You know, I'll do

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the washing up if you you know, put the kids

295
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to bed. I mean, you can do those things. They're

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easy when you feel safe and connected with each other.

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The irony is when you feel safe and connected and

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you're you're clear that you're important to this person, negotiation

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becomes easy. Pasy right, Try it. When you think you're

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talking to the enemy, it's a different bag. But so

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we show people that mostly in distressed relationships, overwhelmingly we're

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caught in certain patterns. The favorite one in North America

303
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is that one person is starts to feel disconnected. You

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see that the issue is not conflict and disagreement. The

305
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issue is emotional disconnection, and people aren't used to tuning

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into that, so people start to feel disconnected from the

307
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other person, which is kind of like where are you?

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Where are you? Are you there for me? Is the

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million dollar question in relationships? Do I matter to you?

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Do you want to spend time with me? You spend

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all your time on your zoom, with your colleagues or

312
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on your phone. Where do I come in? I feel

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alone here? You know, as adults, we don't know how

314
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to talk about these things, so we'll say something like,

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you know, you got up in the middle of that

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conversation and went somewhere else, like I don't matter at all.

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You know, that's incredibly rude. So what I do is

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I put anger out. And what I'm really saying is

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are you there? Are you there? Are you there? Do

320
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I matter? Do I matter? Do I matter? But that's

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not what comes across. What comes across is you're blowing it, buddy.

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I'm mad at you. You're failing. You're not pleasing me,

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you're disappointing me. And we've taught people, especially men, we've

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taught people in relationships to be massively sensitive to the

325
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message you're not pleasing me. You're not who I want

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right now, You're not enough. So the other person feels

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rejected and defends themselves like crazy, or shuts down and

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shuts the other person out, both of which make the

329
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first person more alone and upset, so they get caught

330
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in this dreadful dance. You can call it pursue withdraw.

331
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You can call it demand withdraw. You can call it

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yell your head off shut down. People don't realize that

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when they shut down to deal with their emotions, they

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shut other people out. They don't think about that, and

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other people don't like being shut out. You see, this

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is the other thing. John Bobby said. Human beings can't

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bear not to be responded to, not for other people

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who matter to them to act like they don't exist.

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Human beings can't bear it. It's painful, right, their nervous

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system goes crazy. So isolation is the best predictor of

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every mental health problem and every source of human misery.

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We're meant to be in relationship. We're bonding relational social beings.

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Relationships are the water we swim in. If you take

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a fish out of water, pluck it on the deck,

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it looks very weird indeed, so to disconnected people and

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they can't even relate to themselves. You know, we do

347
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individual eft these days a lot if it emostly focused

348
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individual therapy, and what we're doing there is creating a

349
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secure sense of connection with yourself, right wow. But we

350
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look at people in relationships and we realize that when

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we started to change help people change their relationships to

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a positive frame, they would change each other. They'd grow

353
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each other. People would stop being depressed, they'd stop being

354
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so anxious, you know, because they're not alone in the world.

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They matter to somebody else. Someone will come and they call,

356
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it's are you there for me? Aar? Are you? Are

357
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you open and accessible? Responsive and engaged. So we show

358
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people that what's really going on is disconnection and it hurts.

359
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Rejection and abandonment hurts, and that this dance they're caught

360
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in is the problem. There's no bad guys, there's no

361
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awful husbands, there's no terrible wives, there's no eurotic, crazy

362
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borderline women. There's just people frantic to create this connection

363
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and feeling more and more disconnected. So they start to

364
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see the dance and they start to be able to

365
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do things like turn to each other and say, hey,

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we're caught in that thing that Sue talks about. And

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I encourage them to give it a name. They have

368
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all kinds of strange names. Right, you're the typhoon or

369
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the you know whatever. We're caught in the typhoon again.

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And the other person can say, you're right, we are.

371
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This is looking back at the dance, not at you

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and what you just said to me, right, which you

373
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were deliberately trying to hurt me. Right, we're caught. And

374
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then the other person can say, and if we're caught

375
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in the dance, then you're feeling really small and put

376
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down right now? Is that right? And the other person

377
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can say, yes, that's right. And then the other person say, well,

378
00:22:59.079 --> 00:23:01.359
I didn't actually want you to feel small and put down.

379
00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:06.400
I was actually trying to get your attention. And then

380
00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:08.839
they laugh and they say, let's have a glass of wine.

381
00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:13.200
Like that's from a couple, a recent couple. Okay. So

382
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we help them see how they trigger each other, how

383
00:23:16.359 --> 00:23:21.960
they trigger each other's anxieties and feelings of aloneness and isolation,

384
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and how hard that is for them, and we validate

385
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that it's hard for them. It doesn't mean that they're

386
00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:32.119
weak human beings or not adults, or that there's something

387
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wrong with them. And we help them get their balance,

388
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their emotional balance in the relationship. And then we help

389
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them and it's a natural process. You don't have to

390
00:23:44.680 --> 00:23:49.319
teach it per se. You just have to guide people.

391
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Their emotions will take them there. You just have to

392
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help them resist the blocks and not get stark and

393
00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:03.039
not get scared. But we help them talk about their needs,

394
00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:06.400
their emotional needs and fears in a way that pulls

395
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the partner close that the partner can hear, and the

396
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:13.440
partners start to naturally comfort and hold and respond to

397
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each other, and they start to have these incredible bonding conversations.

398
00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:19.680
We call them hold Me Tight. You know you can

399
00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:23.680
we Hold Me Tight online program you can do. It's

400
00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:27.240
getting a bit old now the couples don't dress in

401
00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:32.279
the latest fashion. But it was an awful lot of work.

402
00:24:32.359 --> 00:24:35.200
So I don't want to have to go back just

403
00:24:35.240 --> 00:24:49.200
because the couples aren't fashionable. But it's it's helped a

404
00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:53.799
lot of people, especially in the US military, the Canadian military,

405
00:24:54.559 --> 00:24:58.839
abroad all over the world. It's been translated. The fascinating thing.

406
00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:03.240
It's translated into that program is used in Iran, in Egypt,

407
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:08.759
in Finland, in Australia. There's something universal about this. We're

408
00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:13.960
all bonding human beings who are who do not do

409
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well with isolation and who are terrified of rejection and abandonment,

410
00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:23.039
and we don't ever talk about that really in our society.

411
00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:26.039
So couples start to be able to reach for each

412
00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:30.480
other and share these needs and respond to each other.

413
00:25:30.920 --> 00:25:34.480
Once they do that, it's a natural process, it's the

414
00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:38.640
process of development. They start feeling better about themselves. They

415
00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:42.119
start being clear about who they are and what they need.

416
00:25:42.519 --> 00:25:45.759
They start having a more secure connection with themselves. They

417
00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:50.559
start feeling more confident and more competent. They start exploring

418
00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:54.079
with their partner more. You know, if you feel safe,

419
00:25:54.359 --> 00:25:57.079
you take risks in the dance. If you feel safe,

420
00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:00.880
you explore, you step out of the normal dance. If

421
00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:03.599
you don't feel safe, you don't. And then, of course

422
00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:08.960
the relationship does get boring, not because you're just familiar

423
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:12.759
with each other, because you're familiar without real connection. Real

424
00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:18.759
connection is fun, interesting, incredible, absorbing, it's intoxicating. It's called

425
00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:22.519
being in love. And so you don't have to make

426
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:27.559
people practice it or do it deliberately. Once they know

427
00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:30.240
how to have homey type conversation, they're not going to

428
00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:33.519
forget that. They don't forget it. It's what makes your

429
00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:36.400
nervous systems zing. And that's one of the reasons why

430
00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:39.839
we're the only couple's therapy. I think nobody else has.

431
00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:44.359
Probably the behaviorists have as many studies as us. They

432
00:26:44.359 --> 00:26:47.599
don't get the same kind of results. But also we

433
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:51.200
have incredible follow up. In other words, you can do

434
00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:54.359
eft with us, and three years later we'll come back

435
00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:57.559
and say, do you still have these conversations? Are you

436
00:26:57.599 --> 00:26:59.960
still happy with each other? Do you still have better sex?

437
00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:03.839
You still trust each other more? Are you still less depressed?

438
00:27:04.279 --> 00:27:06.319
When you get depressed? Can you go to him and

439
00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:08.759
talk to him? Are you still able to do that?

440
00:27:09.400 --> 00:27:12.039
And people say yes after three years, when you say

441
00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:15.880
to yourself, what on earth, how can this be true?

442
00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:19.680
We saw them, They've been distressed for ten fifteen years.

443
00:27:20.200 --> 00:27:24.839
We saw them for eighteen sessions. How on earth can

444
00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:28.160
this be happening three years later? Well, it's because we

445
00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:33.839
didn't do it per se. We tuned into a natural

446
00:27:34.119 --> 00:27:40.559
organic biological system. Attachment is biology. It's the way your

447
00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:43.599
nervous system responds to connection and disconnection.

448
00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:47.319
So what you said before just going back to the

449
00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:51.519
conflict that couples have and this idea of getting underneath

450
00:27:51.799 --> 00:27:54.160
all of the you did this or you said that,

451
00:27:54.400 --> 00:27:57.079
and once that dynamic starts and it's really hard to

452
00:27:57.119 --> 00:27:59.160
get out of, and what you're essentially doing is getting

453
00:27:59.240 --> 00:28:04.240
underneath that with eft to the raw vulnerable emotion that

454
00:28:04.359 --> 00:28:07.200
is buried under there, which I think some people are

455
00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:10.480
even disconnected from themselves. You know, they're up in their

456
00:28:10.519 --> 00:28:13.000
head in their story and their anger, and so you're

457
00:28:13.039 --> 00:28:17.200
actually supporting them to go deeper than that and actually

458
00:28:17.240 --> 00:28:19.319
be vulnerable. And I found it interesting that you said

459
00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:21.119
you've got the online program, which I know that you do,

460
00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:23.039
and you've got the book Hold Me Tight as well.

461
00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:27.400
Do you think that couples are able to do this themselves.

462
00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:30.799
It feels like something that would best be facilitated by

463
00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:33.079
somebody who's able to hold some space, because it's a

464
00:28:33.079 --> 00:28:36.880
scary thing to get vulnerable and get to those really

465
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:40.519
vulnerable emotions with somebody who you are feeling is the

466
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:42.960
enemy when you're at that point in a relationship where

467
00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:47.160
it's really tough and you're feeling like you're not safe emotionally.

468
00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:49.720
I imagine this is a process before you can actually

469
00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:52.079
get to that. And you know the second part of

470
00:28:52.119 --> 00:28:54.400
that is is it something that couples can do on

471
00:28:54.480 --> 00:28:57.640
their own or is it only if they're really not

472
00:28:57.839 --> 00:29:01.839
that far gone that they could potentially on their own, well.

473
00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:04.599
Not that far gone. It is an interesting phrase, I think,

474
00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:07.759
a good question you're asking. I think it depends on

475
00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:11.240
how much trust is left. Okay. I've seen people have

476
00:29:11.319 --> 00:29:16.680
the most terrible arguments and you think, oh my goodness, me.

477
00:29:16.880 --> 00:29:19.039
You know, they pull out every nuclear weapon they can

478
00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:24.079
put their hands on, but somehow, in all of the stuff,

479
00:29:24.599 --> 00:29:28.440
they've still got some sense of trust. And you know,

480
00:29:29.240 --> 00:29:32.759
and sometimes you can't even figure out how this can

481
00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:36.599
be true, but it is, and they will risk. The

482
00:29:36.680 --> 00:29:39.119
other thing is that the relationship really matters to them

483
00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:43.160
a lot. It matters a lot and commitment they will risk. Okay,

484
00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:45.960
they will step off the cliff if they think there's

485
00:29:45.960 --> 00:29:48.680
a chance of connection, and that is something that we

486
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:53.799
will risk for. Okay, But you're right, vulnerability is difficult.

487
00:29:54.200 --> 00:29:56.880
I mean. One of the things we do in the book,

488
00:29:57.200 --> 00:30:01.160
in the program and in therapy is we normalize it

489
00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:04.319
a lot. We talk about how this is just who

490
00:30:04.359 --> 00:30:06.839
we are, This is who we are as human beings.

491
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:10.359
You don't get to choose this one. There's a couple

492
00:30:10.400 --> 00:30:13.519
of ways of dealing with it. That's about it. You know,

493
00:30:13.559 --> 00:30:18.839
we're a wonderful, wonderful, incredible, intricate human beings, except that

494
00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:24.359
we're not. We're actually very simple, bonding animals. And you know,

495
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:26.519
if you're not going to respond to me, and I

496
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:29.839
really need you to respond to me, then I can

497
00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:33.039
scream my head off and make it almost impossible for

498
00:30:33.079 --> 00:30:35.119
you not to respond to me. Job with that one is,

499
00:30:35.119 --> 00:30:38.240
of course, my screaming is very aversive for you. I

500
00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:40.519
can scream my head off. In a good relationship, I

501
00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:43.680
scream my head off and you go, oh, what's wrong,

502
00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:47.079
and we have a conversation. Okay, But we're not talking

503
00:30:47.079 --> 00:30:49.519
about those couples. And you see that with kids and

504
00:30:49.880 --> 00:30:54.160
parents too. You see that some kids in an airport,

505
00:30:54.200 --> 00:30:57.559
the kid will scream its head off, and as a psychologist,

506
00:30:57.559 --> 00:31:01.079
I'm very clear the kid is scared. And some parents

507
00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:04.880
will turn and bend down and go face to face

508
00:31:04.920 --> 00:31:08.400
with the kid and hold the kid's shoulders and talk

509
00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:12.400
in a soft voice. You know, and the kid will

510
00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:15.119
calm you know. So the kid screamed his head off

511
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:17.759
and the adult said, oh, okay, I see you, I

512
00:31:17.799 --> 00:31:21.200
see you. What's going on? And another time a kid

513
00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:23.319
will scream their head off and the parent get enraged

514
00:31:24.039 --> 00:31:29.640
and punitive, and the kid either keeps going right because

515
00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:31.599
this is important. Are you going to respond to me

516
00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:33.440
or not I'm going to make you respond to me,

517
00:31:34.279 --> 00:31:37.799
or the kid shuts down and shuts people out, and

518
00:31:37.839 --> 00:31:44.559
then the parent says, good boy, well, good boy if

519
00:31:44.599 --> 00:31:49.039
it means that you've shut down and numbed out. Results

520
00:31:49.079 --> 00:31:54.200
in what my client said to me when she said, look,

521
00:31:54.680 --> 00:31:58.000
I can't feel. I'm not going to feel. I don't

522
00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:00.759
want to feel vulnerable, Okay, so I'm never going to

523
00:32:00.759 --> 00:32:04.119
feel vulnerable again. So I can't feel now, I don't know.

524
00:32:04.279 --> 00:32:08.559
I've put my feelings away somewhere, and I can't live

525
00:32:08.599 --> 00:32:11.680
the rest of my life totally numb. So then she's

526
00:32:11.720 --> 00:32:16.319
in a real bind. And that bind didn't start in

527
00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:19.599
her present relationship. It started when she was a young

528
00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:23.720
young child being sexually abused by her brothers every night

529
00:32:23.799 --> 00:32:28.920
and everyone making sure they didn't see it. They didn't

530
00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:33.759
see it, and it wasn't happening, right, So yeah, and

531
00:32:34.119 --> 00:32:37.319
the message there is you are invisible and you don't matter.

532
00:32:37.960 --> 00:32:41.559
You just don't matter. And she's saying, Okay, I'm stuck.

533
00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:44.519
She came in because she said, my blood boils all

534
00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:49.240
the time. This was the symptom, right, So I'm stuck.

535
00:32:49.319 --> 00:32:52.160
I can't really feel. All I can feel is rage,

536
00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:55.759
So I can't feel these other feelings you're talking about.

537
00:32:55.759 --> 00:32:58.480
I can't feel, and I can't live without feeling. I

538
00:32:58.519 --> 00:33:02.279
can't live numb. So then what, so what's happening? Oh,

539
00:33:02.359 --> 00:33:10.319
I've got five diagnoses, you know, I'm depressed anxiety disorder OCD. Borderline.

540
00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:14.240
Borderline always comes in, you know, for us, borderline is

541
00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:18.839
mostly complex PTSD. You've been abused as a child and

542
00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:23.119
you're in this dreadful bind that emotion feeling hurts like hell,

543
00:33:24.079 --> 00:33:28.039
and not feeling feels terrible, feels like you're dead. So

544
00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:31.480
you just flip between the two. And you can't trust people,

545
00:33:31.480 --> 00:33:34.119
but you desperately need to trust people, so you flip

546
00:33:34.160 --> 00:33:37.640
between the two. But that's obvious, that's that because but

547
00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:41.440
we look at how EFT looks at how people put

548
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:46.319
their experience of themselves and others and of their emotions

549
00:33:46.359 --> 00:33:50.680
and their body together in the moment, and says, could

550
00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:53.119
you help me? I notice that as you talk about

551
00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:57.839
your blood boiling, I notice that you're rubbing your chest.

552
00:33:59.480 --> 00:34:02.640
And she said, oh, am I, oh yes, I said,

553
00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:06.559
what's happening as you rub your chest? I don't know.

554
00:34:06.599 --> 00:34:12.800
I don't know, I don't know. I feel shaky. Just what.

555
00:34:12.880 --> 00:34:17.480
I don't want to talk about that, right, So if

556
00:34:17.480 --> 00:34:20.039
you felt shaky at home, would you turn and tell

557
00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:25.159
your partner? No? No, I know, you know? So what

558
00:34:25.239 --> 00:34:26.880
do you do when you feel shaky? Am I going

559
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:30.519
to a fog? Then she can't get out of the fog,

560
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:35.039
you see. So she's talking about how she creates her

561
00:34:35.079 --> 00:34:39.960
emotional world, how that emotional world then creates her relationship,

562
00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:44.199
which makes her feel more alone, which makes her emotions

563
00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:49.000
more scary. John Boby said, it doesn't matter what label

564
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:51.440
you give people, and boy are we good at giving

565
00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:54.800
people labels these days. It doesn't matter what labels you

566
00:34:54.880 --> 00:34:58.480
give people. Everyone comes to therapy for the same reason.

567
00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:04.320
They come because of frightening, alien and unacceptable emotions, and

568
00:35:04.440 --> 00:35:09.400
when they come up with another person, they create relationship distress,

569
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:14.960
which then feeds the frightening alien unacceptable emotions. You know,

570
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:20.440
one of the unacceptable alien emotions, especially in warbits who

571
00:35:20.440 --> 00:35:24.519
we work with a lot, is I've failed. I wasn't

572
00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:28.519
the supreme soldier. I made a mistake in battle, my

573
00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:33.199
body got killed. I'm a bad soldier. I'm a bad person.

574
00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:37.199
I'm a failure. I'm defective. There's something wrong with me.

575
00:35:37.480 --> 00:35:39.400
So if they're something wrong with me, how on earth

576
00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:42.440
can I take the risk of turning and saying to you,

577
00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:46.280
I need to be held. I need to know that

578
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:49.039
I'm still a human being on this planet, even if

579
00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:53.079
I miss the shot. I need. I need. I need

580
00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:57.760
to know that I'm not so despicable that when you

581
00:35:57.800 --> 00:36:02.440
look at me, you see me, not the man who

582
00:36:02.519 --> 00:36:05.199
missed the shot. I miss the shot. Okay, I missed

583
00:36:05.239 --> 00:36:09.880
the shot, and I can't forgive myself because my body died.

584
00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:14.760
And look at how that messes up your sense of self,

585
00:36:14.840 --> 00:36:17.159
your sense of being able to reach for another person.

586
00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:21.440
So he doesn't reach for his wife. He starts drinking

587
00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:25.320
and shuts her out, and then she says, you've changed.

588
00:36:25.400 --> 00:36:26.800
I don't know who you are, and he says that

589
00:36:26.840 --> 00:36:29.719
you see I am defective. But we go in and

590
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:34.599
we say, no, you're just a human being. And these

591
00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:37.239
are the feelings we all feel. There's only about six

592
00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:42.000
main emotions. It's not that complicated. We all get stuck

593
00:36:42.039 --> 00:36:47.840
in sadness and loss and shame, you're worried about if

594
00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:52.559
we're acceptable as human beings, and fear. We all get

595
00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:57.119
stuck there. Sometimes you're just human being and you need

596
00:36:57.159 --> 00:37:02.639
to be seen and held. Times sometimes people have never

597
00:37:02.840 --> 00:37:07.360
seen a good relationship, so they're actually trying to create

598
00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:12.760
something from their muscle memory and their evolutionary survival code.

599
00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:15.599
But they've never even seen They're just hamming it up.

600
00:37:15.639 --> 00:37:18.639
They're just trying to you know, they've never seen a boat,

601
00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:21.840
but they're trying to smack it together with some nails.

602
00:37:21.880 --> 00:37:24.840
And of course they get it wrong. And we say,

603
00:37:25.239 --> 00:37:29.039
of course, of course you shut down. Of course you do.

604
00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:33.840
You had no alternative. It saved your life and that's

605
00:37:33.920 --> 00:37:37.840
all you saw around you. You never saw anyone risk,

606
00:37:38.079 --> 00:37:43.320
did you, and reach and say yes, I'm scared right now, right,

607
00:37:43.519 --> 00:37:46.840
And we model that. We model that, and we create.

608
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:51.440
Because we're attachment theorists, we know how to create safety.

609
00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:54.320
It may sound strange for people.

610
00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:58.039
But sounds very logical to me sounds very I think

611
00:37:58.039 --> 00:38:00.559
for people listening to this who are not familiar, I

612
00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:03.039
think it makes so much sense. I think the other

613
00:38:03.079 --> 00:38:05.079
thing you said, Sue, which I thought was really interesting,

614
00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:08.239
when you gave the example of the child screaming and

615
00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:11.800
the different way than the parent responds in that situation,

616
00:38:11.920 --> 00:38:16.000
says so much about the parent's ability to manage their

617
00:38:16.039 --> 00:38:19.679
own emotions. And so I think that's so interesting that

618
00:38:19.719 --> 00:38:22.960
you mentioned you do EFT for individuals as well, because

619
00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:26.199
that is so profoundly important as well. Isn't it, even

620
00:38:26.239 --> 00:38:30.559
outside of relationships, to be able to cultivate that sense

621
00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:33.559
of secure attachment within your self, emotional safety within yourself,

622
00:38:33.599 --> 00:38:36.679
so that you're not playing out these dynamics repeatedly. Yes

623
00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:37.519
with other people.

624
00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:41.559
Yes. And sometimes you'll say to somebody, what did you need?

625
00:38:41.719 --> 00:38:44.119
What do you need in this relationship? You know? What

626
00:38:44.159 --> 00:38:47.119
do you need from me? Even and they'll stare on it.

627
00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:53.599
They'll say, I don't know need? Is that okay to need?

628
00:38:55.119 --> 00:38:55.159
Know?

629
00:38:55.199 --> 00:38:57.239
I'm an adult, you know I don't. You know, I don't.

630
00:38:57.280 --> 00:39:01.000
I'm fine, I don't need need. I don't know what

631
00:39:01.239 --> 00:39:04.880
I need. But then if you go into a moment

632
00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:07.679
of pain, you say, well, let's look at the last

633
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:12.639
time your blood boiled, you know, and you felt that.

634
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:15.639
Remember you said you felt this shaky in your chest

635
00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:22.760
right right? What what was the trigger? I don't know.

636
00:39:23.960 --> 00:39:27.719
People don't know their own emotional landscape. And then we

637
00:39:28.199 --> 00:39:31.320
look at it and we stay there, and the trigger

638
00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:35.000
is that somebody was making a demand of her. Somebody

639
00:39:35.079 --> 00:39:36.840
was saying, now, look, heah, you know you, I want

640
00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:41.480
you to to Well, this young woman lived her whole

641
00:39:41.519 --> 00:39:44.000
life from the time she was eight years old being

642
00:39:44.199 --> 00:39:46.920
having sexual favors demanded of her every night by her

643
00:39:46.920 --> 00:39:50.519
three brothers until she was sixteen when the whole thing

644
00:39:50.559 --> 00:39:53.440
blew up and she told people, and then the family

645
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:56.559
basically dismissed it and said it's not important, it doesn't matter.

646
00:39:56.599 --> 00:40:03.119
It was just childhood, childhood miss okay, childhood mistakes. So

647
00:40:03.239 --> 00:40:08.119
your pain, The message is your pain doesn't matter. It

648
00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:11.559
was all just all about childhood mistakes. So then you

649
00:40:11.679 --> 00:40:15.400
go to you don't matter. And then people go to,

650
00:40:16.039 --> 00:40:18.280
so if I'm in pain and it does matter to me, well,

651
00:40:18.280 --> 00:40:21.159
obviously there's something wrong with me. And it happened to

652
00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:23.239
me because there was something wrong with me. And so

653
00:40:23.360 --> 00:40:29.840
then trauma survivors get caught in shame. And this person, though,

654
00:40:30.559 --> 00:40:34.559
was very lucky she'd found a warm, supportive husband. But

655
00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:37.960
then even he can't really help her if she doesn't

656
00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:41.000
let him in. You see, I say, could you tell

657
00:40:41.119 --> 00:40:43.840
your partner? Could you close your eyes and just imagine

658
00:40:44.519 --> 00:40:48.519
telling your partner just the phrase you used here, which is,

659
00:40:49.519 --> 00:40:55.400
I'm not really angry, I'm heartbroken. Can you imagine telling

660
00:40:55.440 --> 00:40:59.440
your partner this and close your eyes and just imagine

661
00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:02.880
saying to your partner, the only thing I feel safe

662
00:41:02.920 --> 00:41:07.639
telling you about is my anger. If I feel upset

663
00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:12.480
inside or I feel shaky here in my chest, I

664
00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:15.000
can't tell you about that. And then she closes her

665
00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:19.199
eyes and imagines doing that. That's progress. Okay. If I

666
00:41:19.280 --> 00:41:22.599
say to you I can't do it, I'm doing it right.

667
00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:26.039
So I Cass, I can't talk to you about you know,

668
00:41:26.119 --> 00:41:29.480
the fog. That's I'm talking about the fog by telling

669
00:41:29.480 --> 00:41:33.599
you that, right. So, we help people take small risks

670
00:41:33.639 --> 00:41:36.639
and we talk to them about their emotions in a

671
00:41:36.679 --> 00:41:38.960
way it makes them feel safe. So we have a

672
00:41:39.039 --> 00:41:43.239
map to your emotions, your needs, your longings, your fears,

673
00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:48.199
so we can listen to you, help you hold those feelings,

674
00:41:48.760 --> 00:41:53.039
help you understand those feelings, validate those feelings. And when

675
00:41:53.079 --> 00:41:57.679
I talk to you about the feelings, I do it

676
00:41:57.800 --> 00:42:01.719
in a low, slow voice, the way a mother talks

677
00:42:01.760 --> 00:42:06.800
to a child. I talk to Amigdaler. I don't talk

678
00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:09.360
to your prefrontal cortext. If I'm going to talk to

679
00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:12.159
your prefrontal cortext, I can say all kinds of things

680
00:42:12.199 --> 00:42:14.480
to you and they won't have hardly any impact at all.

681
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:17.519
I can say, you know, Cats, I think actually that

682
00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:19.840
doing these podcasts is very, very difficult for you. It

683
00:42:19.880 --> 00:42:22.760
must be very anxiety producing. You say, yes, so it is.

684
00:42:22.840 --> 00:42:28.039
I say, yes, nothing's happened. But if I knew that

685
00:42:28.119 --> 00:42:30.639
you were having a particularly hard time on a particular day,

686
00:42:31.800 --> 00:42:36.079
and I went in and said, you know, Gecass, you know,

687
00:42:36.360 --> 00:42:39.519
I look at your face and could you help me?

688
00:42:39.679 --> 00:42:43.719
It feels like somehow there's some real tension there. You know,

689
00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:46.360
I don't know quite what it is. It's almost like

690
00:42:47.199 --> 00:42:52.400
there's something difficult happening for you right now. But maybe

691
00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:56.800
I'm wrong. Is that? But listen to my voice. It's

692
00:42:56.840 --> 00:42:59.480
soft and slow. And one of the things that happens

693
00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:02.480
in couples is they changed their music. You'll hear a

694
00:43:02.519 --> 00:43:04.639
couple come in and it's like, no, no no, d

695
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:08.199
na da dut dut dut dut du du. I'm not

696
00:43:08.280 --> 00:43:10.880
talking to you. Nobody can talk to you. You're impossible.

697
00:43:11.079 --> 00:43:13.000
Oh yeah, well no no no no no no no

698
00:43:13.039 --> 00:43:16.000
no no, that's the music, right, And then you hear them,

699
00:43:16.239 --> 00:43:18.880
you know, ten sessions later when they're having hold me

700
00:43:18.920 --> 00:43:24.320
tight conversations and it's like, da da dada. This morning,

701
00:43:24.519 --> 00:43:27.039
I realized when I got mad at you, I was

702
00:43:27.079 --> 00:43:33.800
feeling really left out and really alone and like I

703
00:43:33.880 --> 00:43:38.400
didn't matter, and that's difficult for me. And the other

704
00:43:38.440 --> 00:43:43.840
person goes, oh, I didn't. I didn't know that. I

705
00:43:43.880 --> 00:43:46.679
thought you were just mad. But listen to that. Dida

706
00:43:46.760 --> 00:43:52.599
did did did did? Duh da da dada da da

707
00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:57.599
da da. If you watch a good mother and a child,

708
00:43:59.039 --> 00:44:05.400
it's a ar accessibility, responsive and engage. The good mother

709
00:44:05.599 --> 00:44:09.199
is there. The good mother doesn't solve every problem. The

710
00:44:09.239 --> 00:44:13.639
good mother doesn't render the whole world safe. You can't.

711
00:44:13.760 --> 00:44:16.199
As a parent. One of the most distressing things I

712
00:44:16.280 --> 00:44:19.559
think about parenting is as parents, we want to create

713
00:44:20.559 --> 00:44:29.159
a wonderful, safe, totally calm, balanced environment for our kids,

714
00:44:29.400 --> 00:44:34.280
and then we find maybe I should speak for myself

715
00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:39.280
to my horror that they're out in the world and

716
00:44:39.480 --> 00:44:42.679
the world doesn't like my rules and it's not playing

717
00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:49.280
my game. And so as a parent, you can't create

718
00:44:49.400 --> 00:44:52.519
this amazing safety. All you can do is keep the

719
00:44:52.599 --> 00:44:55.719
safety with your child going. And you know that's the

720
00:44:55.840 --> 00:45:00.679
same with your lover and your partner. Sometimes you can't

721
00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:05.679
change the fact that your partner's business is suddenly under

722
00:45:05.719 --> 00:45:09.119
incredible stress and your partner is working thousand hours a

723
00:45:09.239 --> 00:45:13.039
day and losing it, and maybe you can't change that.

724
00:45:13.519 --> 00:45:16.599
All you can do is to deal with your own

725
00:45:16.679 --> 00:45:20.440
feelings and try to be there for them and try

726
00:45:20.519 --> 00:45:23.320
to look at what's going on, and you can keep

727
00:45:23.400 --> 00:45:27.880
the relationship going. So, you know, couples, it's not just

728
00:45:27.960 --> 00:45:30.960
about their relationship. It's about the transitions they go through,

729
00:45:31.039 --> 00:45:33.960
the hard things they go through, and whether they can

730
00:45:34.039 --> 00:45:37.159
be there for each other in those hard things. You know,

731
00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:41.440
sometimes couples walk in with real injuries. You know, my

732
00:45:42.119 --> 00:45:45.599
father died. My father was the closest person to me

733
00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:50.159
in the world. He died, and you acted like it

734
00:45:50.320 --> 00:45:53.679
was an inconvenience in your schedule. You wouldn't. You didn't

735
00:45:53.679 --> 00:45:56.400
even come to the funeral with me. You didn't, and

736
00:45:56.559 --> 00:46:01.599
you know, the partner says, oh, well, that's sort of

737
00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:03.840
how we dealt with things in my family. I didn't

738
00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:06.920
even though it was important to you that I come.

739
00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:09.920
And of course then the other person says, you didn't

740
00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:14.000
know that it was important, right? How can you, you know,

741
00:46:14.280 --> 00:46:17.760
be so stupid? But how they deal with that, that

742
00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:21.559
transition and that grief. If they can deal with it together,

743
00:46:21.639 --> 00:46:25.320
they'll get stronger. If they can't and they get caught

744
00:46:25.400 --> 00:46:30.760
in demand withdraw you know, how can you be so stupid? Well,

745
00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:33.519
you know you always calling me stupid. I can never

746
00:46:33.639 --> 00:46:35.960
make it with you. Well maybe you could make it

747
00:46:36.039 --> 00:46:39.199
with me if you try harder. We're after the races, right,

748
00:46:39.320 --> 00:46:43.039
you become the enemy. I feel that relationship has become

749
00:46:43.239 --> 00:46:48.400
a minefield. The point is for people to know understand love,

750
00:46:48.920 --> 00:46:51.280
understand their emotions and needs, and know that they can

751
00:46:51.440 --> 00:46:59.079
change that. If you understand love, you can actually make it. Now.

752
00:46:59.159 --> 00:47:01.039
Don't you think that should be on the front of

753
00:47:01.119 --> 00:47:03.119
the New York Times? I think it should.

754
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:07.880
You can find out more about Sue's training in emotionally

755
00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:12.400
focused therapy at ic E E f T dot com

756
00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:15.920
or take her Hold Me Tight online course at hold

757
00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:19.000
me tight dot com. Thank you so much for being

758
00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:21.239
here today. If you enjoyed the episode, please remember to

759
00:47:21.280 --> 00:47:22.920
share it with a friend. Here the plus button so

760
00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:25.920
that you never miss an episode. Leave us a five

761
00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:28.480
star rating and review. I cannot wait to catch you

762
00:47:28.679 --> 00:47:30.599
on the next episode of Crapy to Happy