Feb. 20, 2023

Embrace your inner perfectionist with Katherine Morgan-Schafler

Embrace your inner perfectionist with Katherine Morgan-Schafler
The player is loading ...
Embrace your inner perfectionist with Katherine Morgan-Schafler
Embrace your inner perfectionist with Katherine Morgan-Schafler
Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon Castro podcast player icon PocketCasts podcast player icon Podchaser podcast player icon
Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon Castro podcast player icon PocketCasts podcast player icon Podchaser podcast player icon
Season 9 Mindset Women's Health And Wellbeing Self-Confidence

In this episode, Cass in joined by Katherine Morgan-Schafler, a psycho-therapist based in New York City. Katherine's work history includes being an onsite therapist at Google, but now focuses on working with ambitious and perfectionistic women. Katherine discusses the differences between healthy and unhealthy perfectionism, and the gendered nature of perfectionism.Connect with Katherine: https://www.instagram.com/katherinemorganschafler/?hl=en
Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypodwww.tiktok.com/crappytohappypod
Join the free 7-day Happiness Challenge:www.cassdunn.com/happiness

Connect with Cass:

www.cassdunn.com
www.instagram.com/cassdunn_xo

Contact Crappy to Happy:

Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
www.crappytohappypod.com
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypod
www.tiktok.com/@crappytohappypod


Are you a coach, therapist, service provider or solopreneur struggling with self-doubt and imposter syndrome? I'd love to talk to you! (for market research purposes only!)

Book a call with me to share your experience.

Want more great content and less ads?

Upgrade to Paid in the Spotify or Apple podcasts App to get immediate access to "Beyond Happy", the subscriber only podcast featuring bonus content, meditations and more!

Transcript
WEBVTT

1
00:00:02.680 --> 00:00:03.919
A Listener production.

2
00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:12.039
Katherine Morgan Schaeffler is a psychotherapist in New York City

3
00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:15.480
who earned her bachelor's degree in psychology at UC Berkeley

4
00:00:15.759 --> 00:00:19.920
before obtaining two masters from Columbia University. Catherine has a

5
00:00:19.960 --> 00:00:22.679
very long impressive bio, including working as an on site

6
00:00:22.719 --> 00:00:23.960
therapist at Google.

7
00:00:24.559 --> 00:00:26.800
She currently works in private practice in New.

8
00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:30.800
York with ambitious, perfectionistic women, and she has come to

9
00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:35.640
understand that we are thinking about perfectionism all wrong. In

10
00:00:35.719 --> 00:00:40.039
this fascinating conversation, Catherine and I discuss the difference between

11
00:00:40.119 --> 00:00:45.000
healthy and unhealthy perfectionism, why perfectionism is a gendered issue.

12
00:00:45.000 --> 00:00:46.840
This is something I had not thought about. No one

13
00:00:46.840 --> 00:00:50.640
tells men that they should lower their perfectionist standards, the

14
00:00:50.759 --> 00:00:55.719
five different types of perfectionist, and how when harnessed correctly,

15
00:00:55.920 --> 00:01:00.399
perfectionism can be your superpower. If you have I've ever

16
00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:04.799
felt tortured by perfectionism, or if you are tired of

17
00:01:04.840 --> 00:01:08.200
being told that your perfectionism is a bad thing, then

18
00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:11.439
this episode is for you. I hope you enjoy this

19
00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:16.439
conversation with Katherine Morgen Schaffler. Katherine, Welcome to the Crappy

20
00:01:16.439 --> 00:01:17.359
to Happy Podcast.

21
00:01:17.560 --> 00:01:20.239
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really thrilled

22
00:01:20.239 --> 00:01:20.680
to be here.

23
00:01:20.920 --> 00:01:25.400
Congratulations on your book, which I had an advanced copy of.

24
00:01:26.120 --> 00:01:28.280
I was so excited to talk to you because, as

25
00:01:28.319 --> 00:01:30.000
I was just saying to you off air, the topic

26
00:01:30.079 --> 00:01:33.480
of perfectionism is a big one for women. It's a

27
00:01:33.480 --> 00:01:36.040
big one for listeners in my community. It's something that

28
00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:38.959
I talk about a lot, and I was really interested

29
00:01:39.000 --> 00:01:42.840
to actually get your perspective on this topic. So, as

30
00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:45.359
you know, when we talk about perfectionism, and I've even

31
00:01:45.400 --> 00:01:48.799
talked about this myself about we have to get over

32
00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:52.280
perfectionism and accept that good enough is good enough and

33
00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:56.000
not be completely undone by perfectionism, and you've got a

34
00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:58.920
bit of a different take on it. Can you share

35
00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:02.480
perspective on perfectionism?

36
00:02:02.879 --> 00:02:09.000
Yes, So I have also tried that method which I

37
00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:11.599
talk about in The Perfectionist Guide to Lose in Control

38
00:02:11.719 --> 00:02:15.439
as the eradication method, because I've heard the same messages

39
00:02:15.479 --> 00:02:19.680
that you have that we all have that perfectionism is bad.

40
00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:23.000
If you are a perfectionist, you need to fix something

41
00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:25.680
about yourself so that you can learn how to be

42
00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:31.919
balanced and healthy and good. And what I discovered in

43
00:02:31.960 --> 00:02:35.199
my work as a psychotherapist and also just my own

44
00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:38.759
work on myself is that that method does not work.

45
00:02:39.319 --> 00:02:42.400
And I became really curious about why does this not

46
00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:45.280
work and if it doesn't work, why do we keep

47
00:02:45.319 --> 00:02:49.879
telling people to approach perfectionism in this way? And what

48
00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:52.919
I found when I delved into the research is that

49
00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:57.520
perfectionist is an enduring identity marker. So that means the

50
00:02:57.560 --> 00:03:01.919
people who relate to that term and really identify as

51
00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:05.319
a perfectionist tend to identify and hold on to that

52
00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:09.680
identity throughout their entire lifetime. And it's sort of like

53
00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:13.479
thinking of yourself as a romantic or an activist. In

54
00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:15.680
the same way that I would never tell a romantic

55
00:03:16.120 --> 00:03:18.840
it's great that you believe in love, just don't believe

56
00:03:18.840 --> 00:03:22.080
in love every time, And in the same way I

57
00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:26.159
would never tell an activist listen, caring is good, just

58
00:03:26.240 --> 00:03:29.800
don't care so much that you know it begins to

59
00:03:29.919 --> 00:03:33.479
dictate all your decisions in life. You just can't tell

60
00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:36.680
a perfectionist, look, I know that you want to do

61
00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:38.960
a great job, but just don't be so much of

62
00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:44.080
a perfectionist. And I became really frustrated the ubiquity of

63
00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:49.599
that message. And then there was another layer of who

64
00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:55.039
is getting that message which is overwhelmingly directed towards women

65
00:03:55.159 --> 00:03:58.240
more than men? And then there was just every time

66
00:03:58.280 --> 00:03:59.759
I thought I had it figured out, there was like

67
00:03:59.800 --> 00:04:03.400
an another layer of, well, what other messages are women

68
00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:06.680
getting that men aren't getting. Oh, women are being told

69
00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:11.319
to find balance at a totally disproportionate rate to men.

70
00:04:11.639 --> 00:04:14.280
Why is that? And how are all these things interconnected?

71
00:04:14.319 --> 00:04:19.399
What's the interplay? And so yes, my approach is to

72
00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:23.680
flip the paradigm of perfectionism on its head, to talk

73
00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:27.560
about the research around perfectionism, which for the past few

74
00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:32.519
decades has focused on perfectionism as a multi dimensional construct,

75
00:04:32.839 --> 00:04:36.399
so as this kaleidoscopic thing that can be expressed both

76
00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:41.959
adaptively the healthy version and maladaptively the unhealthy version. So

77
00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:45.120
my approach is not about thinking of perfectionism in a

78
00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:48.759
binary way as good or bad. It's about thinking about

79
00:04:48.759 --> 00:04:53.399
it holistically and thinking about yourself holistically as a whole

80
00:04:53.480 --> 00:04:56.879
human being who wants to operate from a best self

81
00:04:56.959 --> 00:04:59.800
but also has like a regular self and also has

82
00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:02.759
you know, what you might call a lower self, as

83
00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:07.120
somebody who's sort of making decisions from an unconscious place

84
00:05:07.800 --> 00:05:11.160
and just understanding that that's part of being a human being,

85
00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:15.879
and that the way to move through that is to

86
00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:19.879
accept it and embrace it and then explore the ways

87
00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:23.199
to use your strengths to help you be the person

88
00:05:23.240 --> 00:05:24.199
that you want to be.

89
00:05:24.920 --> 00:05:27.399
And you make such a valid point that there is,

90
00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:31.759
and as a psychologist myself, there is an adaptive way

91
00:05:31.879 --> 00:05:36.319
of being perfectionist, and there is a maladaptive way. What

92
00:05:36.439 --> 00:05:39.800
we see and what we talk about is always the maladaptive.

93
00:05:40.120 --> 00:05:44.000
You're quite right that it doesn't help to reduce all

94
00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:50.199
perfectionism and all of it's potentially really positive aspects, things

95
00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:52.439
that really help people to do a good job, and

96
00:05:52.480 --> 00:05:54.879
attention to detail, all that healthy striving to put that

97
00:05:54.920 --> 00:05:57.600
all under the one umbrella of this what is essentially

98
00:05:57.639 --> 00:06:01.000
the maladaptive form of perfecttion right.

99
00:06:01.480 --> 00:06:04.079
Yes, And interestingly, if you go all the way back

100
00:06:04.120 --> 00:06:08.879
to the first time that perfectionism was presented in psychological literature,

101
00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:11.839
you will find the work of doctor Alfred Adler, who

102
00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:15.439
I am obsessed with and became obsessed with in researching

103
00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:18.600
the book The Perfectionist Guide to Lose in Control, and

104
00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:24.560
Adler framed perfectionism in this beautiful way as this innate

105
00:06:24.839 --> 00:06:29.720
human quality that all of us possess. And he is

106
00:06:29.759 --> 00:06:34.000
the guy who coined the term inferiority complex, and he

107
00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:37.240
knew in real time that people were misunderstanding what the

108
00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:41.720
inferiority complex was. And really, what's so beautiful about Adler

109
00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:45.120
is that he framed all neuroses, as he put it,

110
00:06:45.279 --> 00:06:49.519
as an absence of connection. And so he looked at

111
00:06:49.560 --> 00:06:54.079
mental health through the lens of connection instead of the

112
00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:56.839
way that we look at mental health now, which is

113
00:06:56.879 --> 00:07:01.000
through the lens of individual pathology. And we look at

114
00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:05.199
something that's dysfunctional, we hone in on the person and

115
00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:11.079
we say, what's wrong with you? Instead, we could, again

116
00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:14.720
the word holistic comes to mind, see something that's dysfunctional

117
00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:18.759
and ask better questions like where are you feeling disconnected

118
00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:21.439
in your life? How can we connect more to each other?

119
00:07:22.160 --> 00:07:26.319
What community support is missing right now? And so I

120
00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:32.519
really loved Adler's framing and I discovered the language that

121
00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:36.199
I needed and felt about perfectionism, which is, you know,

122
00:07:36.279 --> 00:07:40.360
he calls it the eternal melody we all hear. He believed,

123
00:07:40.600 --> 00:07:44.800
unlike Freud, that human beings are innately good. So when

124
00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:48.040
you see the reality plunk down in your lap and

125
00:07:48.079 --> 00:07:51.600
the ideal in front of you, and you imagine a

126
00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:54.759
better and improved ideal. If we were left to our

127
00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:58.639
own devices and we were supported and connected, we would

128
00:07:58.639 --> 00:08:05.079
be pursuing deals that helped the whole, helped the collective.

129
00:08:06.519 --> 00:08:11.680
And that if he essentially said, if everyone was clean, clothed, free,

130
00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:16.160
safe and loved, there would be no perfectionism. But because

131
00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:20.439
we understand that there's so much disconnectedness in our culture,

132
00:08:21.240 --> 00:08:25.199
there's something in us that is propelling us towards this

133
00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:30.319
mission to take care of each other, and that is perfectionism.

134
00:08:30.399 --> 00:08:34.399
This perfect ideal, from his perspective, was a societal one.

135
00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:38.440
And even just thinking about it that way, whether you

136
00:08:38.519 --> 00:08:43.279
agree with that conceptualization or not, just understanding that there

137
00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:46.879
are many ways to look at this construct and looking

138
00:08:46.919 --> 00:08:49.279
at it in the way that we look at it now,

139
00:08:49.879 --> 00:08:53.960
which is really reductive and myopic, and saying, well, a

140
00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:58.000
perfectionist is this type a person who is rigid and

141
00:08:58.120 --> 00:09:01.120
wants everything to be perfect at all time times. It's

142
00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:05.600
such an oversimplification and it bulldozes over so much of

143
00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:09.279
the nuance and real richness of this construct.

144
00:09:09.720 --> 00:09:14.240
Yeah, fascinating, and I totally agree that with what you're

145
00:09:14.279 --> 00:09:19.679
saying about this individualization of pathology when obviously any sort

146
00:09:19.720 --> 00:09:25.879
of mental health issues, emotional struggle, challenge that we grapple

147
00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:28.000
with is so much to do. You know, it's the

148
00:09:28.039 --> 00:09:31.600
context of the culture and the society and the world

149
00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:33.639
that we live in, and there is so much more

150
00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:34.080
at play.

151
00:09:34.679 --> 00:09:38.120
One hundred percent. We just don't have names for cultural disorders,

152
00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:41.639
but we should. And it doesn't mean that individual pathology

153
00:09:41.720 --> 00:09:45.639
isn't real. It is, but it's not the whole story.

154
00:09:46.039 --> 00:09:49.399
No. The other interesting thing that you just said, and

155
00:09:49.960 --> 00:09:53.360
you describe in the book is that there is also

156
00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:57.360
just not one perfectionist. You know, I have had clients

157
00:09:57.399 --> 00:09:59.759
myself in the past, and you know, people who have

158
00:09:59.799 --> 00:10:01.159
said me, I'm going, oh, say there are a little

159
00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:03.480
bit of perfectionism going on here, and they say, oh, gosh, no,

160
00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:06.200
you couldn't call mere perfectionists. Like my house is a mess.

161
00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:10.039
You couldn't call mere perfectionist. You know, that's not necessarily

162
00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:14.000
what perfectionism is. And often what I would say to

163
00:10:14.039 --> 00:10:17.759
people is it's not even necessarily what appears on the outside.

164
00:10:17.799 --> 00:10:20.799
It's what you're doing to yourself on the inside, like

165
00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:24.080
in your own mind when you're not achieving those ideals

166
00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:26.639
with those standards that you set for yourself. But you've

167
00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:33.039
actually broken down perfectionism into basically five different profiles, five

168
00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:38.759
or different sort of presentations of these perfectionist tendencies, which

169
00:10:38.759 --> 00:10:41.159
I found really interesting, and I think that would be

170
00:10:41.240 --> 00:10:43.919
really helpful for a lot of people to hear what

171
00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:47.279
they are to help them to better understand where they

172
00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:50.639
might fit, like how perfectionism might present for them, because

173
00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:53.799
I think to go on from that, then what you've

174
00:10:53.799 --> 00:10:56.639
really presented is we'll get to this later, is you know,

175
00:10:57.000 --> 00:10:59.399
how do you harness the best bits of that?

176
00:10:59.480 --> 00:10:59.679
You know?

177
00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:01.639
How? Oh, that's what we're getting to, isn't like how

178
00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:04.799
do you harness the positive without being undone by the

179
00:11:04.840 --> 00:11:08.000
potential kind of consequences? So could we go to the

180
00:11:08.039 --> 00:11:09.840
five perfectionist time?

181
00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:13.200
Yes, Cass, thank you for bringing that up. And I

182
00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:16.159
personally no one has to agree with me, But I

183
00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:18.240
don't know how to spend a better three minutes of

184
00:11:18.279 --> 00:11:22.279
my life than taking an online pop psycho kiz. So

185
00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:26.000
if you'd like to take the quiz about which type

186
00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:29.759
of perfectionist you are, you can go to perfectionist guide

187
00:11:29.960 --> 00:11:33.679
dot com. But yes, I started to notice patterns in

188
00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:37.600
my work, and I realized before I wrote this book,

189
00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:40.720
I really felt like I could never be a perfectionist.

190
00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:44.879
I'm obsessed with doctor Brene Brown and still am. I

191
00:11:45.000 --> 00:11:47.600
never know where my phone is or my lip bomb,

192
00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:51.759
and I don't mind, you know, a little bit of mess,

193
00:11:51.799 --> 00:11:56.600
a little bit of you know, just I'm not a

194
00:11:56.679 --> 00:12:03.480
rigid person, or so I thought. But still the underlying

195
00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:09.919
theme of perfectionism continued to sort of manifest within me.

196
00:12:10.039 --> 00:12:12.960
So let me get to the five types. The five

197
00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:18.000
types are intense perfectionists, and these are people who are

198
00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:21.919
effortlessly direct. They maintain razor sharp focus on achieving the

199
00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:29.279
goal the outcome, but left unchecked, they can impose standards

200
00:12:29.320 --> 00:12:32.360
that go from being really high to impossible, and they

201
00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:36.039
can be very punitive with themselves and those around them

202
00:12:36.559 --> 00:12:40.679
if those impossible standards are not met. So backing up

203
00:12:40.720 --> 00:12:44.000
a touch, all of these profiles have pros and cons,

204
00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:48.960
advantages and liabilities. Next is classic perfectionists, and this is

205
00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:51.039
what we tend to think of. I think when we

206
00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:54.440
think of the perfectionists of someone who's very buttoned up, proppy.

207
00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:59.159
These people are highly reliable. They add structure to wherever

208
00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:04.399
they go pretty effortlessly but left unchecked, they struggle to

209
00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:07.879
adapt to spontaneity or change in routine, and they can

210
00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:15.039
experience difficulty connecting meaningfully with others because if you're not

211
00:13:15.879 --> 00:13:23.639
also engendering some kind of connection or interpersonal priority, classic

212
00:13:23.679 --> 00:13:28.440
perfectionists can come off as transactional. Parisian perfectionists possess a

213
00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:32.840
live wire understanding of the power of connection, and so

214
00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:38.240
for these kinds of perfectionists, they want the ideal connection

215
00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:41.559
they want to be. This sometimes shows up as being,

216
00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:44.879
you know, the need to be perfectly liked, the desire

217
00:13:44.919 --> 00:13:49.600
to perfectly like others, the desire to connect perfectly to themselves.

218
00:13:49.720 --> 00:13:52.240
You see a lot of this in personal development, right

219
00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:55.600
of I want to perfectly love myself and perfectly be

220
00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:59.720
patient with myself, And left unchecked, this type of perfectionism

221
00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:06.679
can tastasize into some really dysfunctional people pleasing where you're

222
00:14:06.679 --> 00:14:11.879
prioritizing the other person so much that you have abandoned

223
00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:16.799
yourself in the process. And then there's the procrastinator perfectionist.

224
00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:21.080
And most simply put, this kind of perfectionist once the

225
00:14:21.159 --> 00:14:25.440
beginning of something to feel or be perfect. So on

226
00:14:25.480 --> 00:14:29.639
the pro's side, these are people who are excellent at preparing.

227
00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:33.279
They are not impulsive, They are very thoughtful about their

228
00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:37.320
decision making, and they can see situations from a three

229
00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:41.120
hundred and sixty degree angle. On the con side, they

230
00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:44.720
can forget about the law of diminishing returns, and their

231
00:14:44.759 --> 00:14:50.000
preparative measures can overwhelm them to the point of indecisiveness.

232
00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:53.759
So they become paralyzed by this type of perfectionism, and

233
00:14:53.799 --> 00:14:56.679
then they just don't act. They never do it because

234
00:14:56.960 --> 00:15:00.320
the beginning of any process is rarely perfect. It's never

235
00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:03.600
the right time to go on vacation or to break

236
00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:07.120
up with someone, or to ask for a raise or

237
00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:10.559
whatever it is. And the counterpart and the last profile

238
00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:17.279
to procrastinative perfectionists are messy perfectionists and massy perfectionists. Unlike

239
00:15:17.320 --> 00:15:22.799
procrastinative perfectionists, are in love with the beginning, can effortlessly

240
00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:26.960
push through the anxiety of starting something new. They find

241
00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:33.440
it intoxicating. They're naturally enthusiastic, they're superstar idea generators. But

242
00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:37.399
they want the middle of the process to feel as

243
00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:41.039
perfect as the beginning. And when they inevitably hit that

244
00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:47.159
tedium and that sort of boring middle of okay, I

245
00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:49.159
started the company, and this is the perfect name of

246
00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:50.799
the company, and this is the mission, and this is

247
00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:52.720
how we're going to change the world. What do you

248
00:15:52.759 --> 00:15:56.360
mean I have to pay taxes and file my PLLC

249
00:15:56.519 --> 00:15:58.480
with the state? What is that? This is boring? This

250
00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:02.200
is terrible. Then it all kind of starts to unravel

251
00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:07.559
for them, and so unchecked, this type of perfectionism looks

252
00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:12.200
like saying yes to a million things but actually committing

253
00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:17.600
to nothing. And the danger of all these unchecked types

254
00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:21.639
is that you begin to create a false narrative around

255
00:16:21.720 --> 00:16:26.320
who you are. So, for example, a messy perfectionist might say, oh,

256
00:16:26.360 --> 00:16:30.919
well this fell apart because I'm just not smart enough

257
00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:33.360
to figure it out, or no one takes me seriously,

258
00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:37.320
or I'm just not disciplined enough or whatever it is.

259
00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:40.519
And it's like, no, none of that is true. It's

260
00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:44.360
more so about when you need to add support and

261
00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:47.120
being aware of what that support looks like.

262
00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:51.440
So are you saying then that the thread that runs

263
00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:56.960
through all of those five themes, there's a different focus

264
00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:00.679
for where that ideal, you know, where that sort of

265
00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:04.319
standard sits. But it sounds like, also when you talk

266
00:17:04.359 --> 00:17:06.519
about a false narrative, that they're all underpinned by a

267
00:17:06.599 --> 00:17:08.000
level of self criticism.

268
00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:13.000
The difference between whether you're a healthy perfectionist or an

269
00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:18.039
unhealthy perfectionist. It's not whether you experience perfectionism right, and

270
00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:22.279
to me, how I define perfectionist is a person who

271
00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:26.400
notices the gap between the reality plunk down in our

272
00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:30.799
laps and this ideal that we can imagine or perhaps

273
00:17:31.079 --> 00:17:35.359
infinite ideals, and not only notices that gap, but feels

274
00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:40.599
a compulsion to bridge that gap actively work towards bridging

275
00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:44.279
that gap, which is the difference between an idealist and

276
00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:51.480
a perfectionist. Perfectionism is healthy or unhealthy basically depending on

277
00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:54.880
whether or not you are punitive with yourself when you

278
00:17:54.960 --> 00:18:00.319
inevitably cannot bridge that gap because as healthy perfectionists contain

279
00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:04.240
awareness of ideals are meant to inspire, they are not

280
00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:08.400
meant to be achieved. And two questions to ask yourself

281
00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:12.200
to help guide your awareness of whether your perfectionism is

282
00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:17.279
healthy or not is how am I striving? And why

283
00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:22.039
am I striving? So the how is am I striving

284
00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:25.720
in a way that hurts me or hurts people around me?

285
00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:30.200
For example, are you not giving yourself opportunities to rest?

286
00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:35.720
Are you lacerating yourself with negative self talk, right, And

287
00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:42.000
if you're doing that, then that's maladaptive perfectionism. The why

288
00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:46.279
am I striving is what is motivating this propulsion for

289
00:18:46.359 --> 00:18:50.000
you to bridge that gap? Are you doing that because

290
00:18:50.039 --> 00:18:55.160
you think bridging the gap is going to certify your

291
00:18:55.200 --> 00:19:03.359
belonging into some kind of realm of joy or happiness?

292
00:19:03.559 --> 00:19:08.640
Or in other words, are you doing that because you

293
00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:12.599
think that after you achieve the thing, then you will

294
00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:17.319
finally be able to feel joy or feel like you

295
00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:22.880
have achieved something and are now worthy of relaxing or

296
00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:31.039
being loved or being accepted. And if you're striving in

297
00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:36.920
order to be worthy of love, joy, freedom, dignity, or connection,

298
00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:43.799
your perfectionism is manifesting in an unhealthy way. Adaptive perfectionism

299
00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:47.880
is about understanding that you are a whole person now

300
00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:52.400
and that as a whole human being, you need not

301
00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:55.519
do a single thing. You don't even need to get

302
00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:59.200
out of bed or even open your eyes to be

303
00:19:59.319 --> 00:20:03.599
worthy of all the love, joy, dignity, connection, and freedom

304
00:20:04.119 --> 00:20:07.000
that the quote unquote best version of you would be

305
00:20:07.079 --> 00:20:13.160
worthy of. It's pre arranged. You're already a whole human being.

306
00:20:13.400 --> 00:20:18.079
You don't need to achieve anything in order to achieve

307
00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:22.920
your wholeness. You're born with it, and so adaptive perfectionists

308
00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:31.480
strive knowing that and wanting to achieve the ideal. Maladaptive

309
00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:34.920
perfectionists don't know that they feel broken in some way,

310
00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:40.000
and they strive needing to achieve the ideal because they

311
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:44.440
see achieving the ideal as the key to their wholeness

312
00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:48.720
and therefore their deservedness I don't know if that's word,

313
00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:53.119
but their deservedness of feeling joy. And you know how

314
00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:56.720
this looks in real time because we're talking about I'm

315
00:20:56.759 --> 00:20:58.480
talking about this in a bit of a lofty way

316
00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:03.559
right now. It's very nuanced. Right We don't talk to

317
00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:06.759
ourselves like this in our heads and say, you know what,

318
00:21:06.839 --> 00:21:09.119
I'm going to stay up an hour later even though

319
00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:12.359
I'm exhausted, because I don't feel worthy of love right now,

320
00:21:12.759 --> 00:21:16.240
and so doing this will help me feel worthy of

321
00:21:16.279 --> 00:21:21.599
this later. Nobody actually registers this stuff that way. What

322
00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:26.440
it looks like isugh, I can't wait to be done

323
00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:30.920
with this. Then I can finally relax, or then I

324
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:36.240
can finally reward myself by going on vacation. And it

325
00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:43.480
looks like really taking natural feelings like joy and intellectualizing

326
00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:47.480
them and making an excellent plan to be really happy

327
00:21:47.559 --> 00:21:54.839
and really enjoy your life later instead of saying I

328
00:21:54.920 --> 00:21:58.519
deserve these things now, and I'm going to allow myself

329
00:21:59.119 --> 00:22:03.119
to feel joy and simple pleasures now. I'm going to

330
00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:06.920
allow myself to sit down to a conversation with a

331
00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:10.839
friend or someone I love or think is funny without agenda,

332
00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:14.240
not because I earned it, but because I want to.

333
00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:17.119
And perfectionists are scared to do that because they're like,

334
00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:21.720
what if I fall so deep into my pleasure that

335
00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:25.279
I become hedonists? And it's like goes full circle back

336
00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:28.400
to the identity marker of you, can't you do not

337
00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:30.599
as a perfectionist have it in you to sit back

338
00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:33.319
and chill and do nothing. And so the thing that

339
00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:37.400
makes being a perfectionist so difficult initially of like I

340
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:42.160
have to, I want you and I have to, is

341
00:22:42.200 --> 00:22:46.839
what also makes it so easy later, which is like,

342
00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:50.799
you will enjoy your life and then a part of

343
00:22:50.839 --> 00:22:55.039
you will want to return to the striving because it's

344
00:22:55.079 --> 00:22:57.960
a natural, healthy part of you, and that will feel

345
00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:02.200
pleasurable to you doing it in a way that is adaptive.

346
00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:05.920
Such a good explanation So what you're saying there is

347
00:23:05.960 --> 00:23:13.519
it really just comes back to trusting, trusting yourself and

348
00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:16.519
trusting that you're enough, and also trusting that you're not

349
00:23:16.519 --> 00:23:20.319
going to get sloppy and lazy and waste life. If

350
00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:22.920
you take a break today or have a you know,

351
00:23:23.079 --> 00:23:30.960
let yourself relax and enjoy life, that that drive to

352
00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:35.400
succeed and to do well and to reach the ideal

353
00:23:36.119 --> 00:23:37.599
will still be there.

354
00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:40.519
Right, And I see it as a drive to contribute.

355
00:23:40.759 --> 00:23:43.640
I think that's what it really is. And you're not

356
00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:45.599
going to wake up one day and say I don't

357
00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:49.640
want to contribute. I just want to you know, sit back,

358
00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:54.000
watch Netflix and do nothing with my life. That's not

359
00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:56.000
going to happen. And the way I explained it in

360
00:23:56.039 --> 00:23:59.839
the book is if you imagine the nicest, kindest person

361
00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:04.160
you know trying to be really mean and nasty, it's like,

362
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:09.240
whatever version of that is, there's still probably being considerate.

363
00:24:09.640 --> 00:24:13.799
You know, if you are truly a kind person, you

364
00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:16.519
don't have it in you to just like be super

365
00:24:16.599 --> 00:24:20.680
nasty all the time. We all have, we all glitch. Right.

366
00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:24.920
Mental health, in my view, is very fluid and context dependent.

367
00:24:25.480 --> 00:24:30.400
So that doesn't mean that perfectionists can't become very unfocused

368
00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:34.079
at times and forget about how they want to contribute

369
00:24:34.279 --> 00:24:37.400
or what their intention is. But I love that you

370
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:41.759
use the word trust. And the whole last chapter of

371
00:24:41.799 --> 00:24:46.720
the book is about trust, because the first part of

372
00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:49.720
the book is about dismantling perfectionism and thinking about it

373
00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:52.480
in this entirely new way. It's like think outside the

374
00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:56.200
box and throw the box away. The second part is

375
00:24:56.279 --> 00:25:00.559
more practical tools like ten new ways to think, eight

376
00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:05.359
new behavioral strategies. But the last chapter really shares the

377
00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:08.640
message of none of this stuff matters if you don't

378
00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:13.000
trust yourself. Healing is not about knowing what to do.

379
00:25:13.720 --> 00:25:16.119
In many ways, we already all know what to do

380
00:25:16.599 --> 00:25:21.599
into it. Intuitively, healing is about learning to trust yourself.

381
00:25:21.880 --> 00:25:24.039
And it doesn't matter if you know what to do

382
00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:27.920
if you don't trust yourself to do it. And trusting

383
00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:32.880
myself has been you know, I don't like the things

384
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:35.559
of the word journey because it's so cheesy, but it

385
00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:39.920
has been a real journey, and not not because I

386
00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:42.640
didn't want to trust myself, but because I didn't know

387
00:25:43.319 --> 00:25:47.559
what it looked like to not trust myself. For example,

388
00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:53.000
even just trusting my body trusting my body to know

389
00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:57.440
when I need rest and when I don't. I used

390
00:25:57.480 --> 00:25:59.880
to This is going to sound so bizarre but to

391
00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:04.400
some people, but I used to almost feel like when

392
00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:06.119
I was tired in the middle of the day that

393
00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:09.480
I was doing something wrong, Like why am I tired?

394
00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:12.720
I shouldn't be tired. The sun is still out. I

395
00:26:12.839 --> 00:26:15.960
must you know, not be balanced enough and not be

396
00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:18.799
doing this right and not be whatever. And it's like

397
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:24.039
just being able to trust if you're tired your body

398
00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:27.680
needs rest and not having to calculate why it needs

399
00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:30.160
rest or how much rest it needs. It was just

400
00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:34.640
you know, taking time and resting. And so I stopped

401
00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:37.880
in the middle of writing this book sleeping with an

402
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:42.039
alarm clock, because first of all, I have a small child,

403
00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:46.279
so there's only so much you know, time in the

404
00:26:46.279 --> 00:26:48.599
morning before she gets up and starts jumping on me.

405
00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:52.279
But also I used to wake up afore I am

406
00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:56.319
every single morning, no matter what. And I thought that

407
00:26:56.319 --> 00:27:00.240
that was me being disciplined, and that I need to

408
00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:03.359
do that. And in the midst of writing this book,

409
00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:09.200
I realized that part of that is discipline, but a

410
00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:13.599
bigger part of it is me not trusting myself to

411
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:17.200
do what I need to do when I need to

412
00:27:17.240 --> 00:27:22.039
do it, and so being able to just wake up

413
00:27:22.119 --> 00:27:26.799
now and you know, it's an hour later than when

414
00:27:26.839 --> 00:27:30.079
I think I, quote unquote should wake up, and saying

415
00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:33.240
to myself, I have all the time and talent to

416
00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:37.279
do what I need to do, and my body needed

417
00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:42.039
that rest and I'm feeling good. And similarly, if I

418
00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:44.319
wake up at like three thirty in the morning and

419
00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:47.319
I'm wide awake, I used to and that would happen,

420
00:27:47.480 --> 00:27:50.319
like make myself stay in bed because I was like,

421
00:27:50.440 --> 00:27:52.359
it's too weird to wake up at three thirty in

422
00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:55.279
the morning. But now I get out of bed. I'm like,

423
00:27:55.480 --> 00:27:59.119
my body's awake right now, and I'm going to do

424
00:27:59.240 --> 00:28:04.079
whatever I need to do, And so really turning things

425
00:28:04.359 --> 00:28:08.000
inward and being able to use myself as my own

426
00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:13.279
guide instead of the clock or someone else's expectations. You know,

427
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:17.359
going off on a tangent here, but that's what one

428
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:22.000
aspect of rebuilding trust with myself looked like.

429
00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:28.640
I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the

430
00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:31.599
benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are

431
00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:34.440
enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe

432
00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:36.799
so that you get notified when you epps drop and

433
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:39.319
head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen

434
00:28:39.400 --> 00:28:49.359
and leave us a rating and review. You said this

435
00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:51.200
is going to sound bizarre to some people. I don't

436
00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:53.839
think it sounds bizarre at all. I think everybody listening

437
00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:55.400
to this is not in a long going I know

438
00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:57.720
exactly what you mean. I've had the same thoughts. I

439
00:28:57.799 --> 00:29:00.359
do the same thing. And I was thinking as you

440
00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:02.759
were talking, Catherine, that you know you said earlier on

441
00:29:02.839 --> 00:29:09.799
about the gendered nature of perfectionism, and I think you know,

442
00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:12.039
other examples that come to mind are.

443
00:29:13.400 --> 00:29:16.559
For women, are I'm.

444
00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:20.680
Always looking to an outside an expert, this eating plan,

445
00:29:20.839 --> 00:29:24.039
that diet, that workout program. I need to look like this,

446
00:29:24.200 --> 00:29:27.400
be like this, present like this, be this kind of parent.

447
00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:29.759
You know, we're looking for parenting books. Do you know

448
00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:32.880
how I guess I don't know if there's a question

449
00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:36.119
in this, but how much of that you know? It's

450
00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:41.160
all a part of this perfectionist problem.

451
00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:47.680
Right, So perfectionist is a highly gendered term, and I

452
00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:50.960
want to nip this in the bud culturally because in

453
00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:53.440
the same word that in the same way that BASI

454
00:29:55.319 --> 00:29:57.880
was a term that was highly gendered, and we became

455
00:29:57.960 --> 00:30:04.680
aware of it and how languige, which regulates gender performance expectations,

456
00:30:05.799 --> 00:30:08.720
we need to become aware of how the word perfectionist

457
00:30:08.839 --> 00:30:13.319
is regulating gender performance expectations. So the word bossy is

458
00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:18.160
typically a word ascribed to young girls and potentially women.

459
00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:21.039
It's not a word that you often say to boys

460
00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:26.119
because the implicit messaging in that word and the regulatory

461
00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:32.000
function of that word is to tell girls, don't be authoritative.

462
00:30:32.519 --> 00:30:38.559
That's not a feminine quality, so you need to sit

463
00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:42.079
back and not be so bossy. Don't be so bossy.

464
00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:45.680
And I began examining a lot of the words that

465
00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:48.839
we used, like the word resting bitch face. For example,

466
00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:52.359
have you heard that phrase, yes, of course, okay, So

467
00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:58.039
notice that there is no resting asshole face or jerk

468
00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:01.599
face or whatever. And when you look at why is that.

469
00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:05.359
Why is there only that phrase for women, it's because

470
00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:09.319
the implicit messaging there is you are expected as a

471
00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:15.799
woman to be pleasant and palatable and smiling always. Cheerfulness

472
00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:18.440
is part of what you need to bring to the table,

473
00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:23.640
and men don't have that expectation. So that's why when

474
00:31:23.720 --> 00:31:28.240
men express a neutral facial expression. You don't call it

475
00:31:28.279 --> 00:31:31.559
anything other than normal. There's no word for it. And

476
00:31:31.640 --> 00:31:34.359
there are lots of words like this, like strong minded,

477
00:31:34.519 --> 00:31:38.640
for example, is a descriptor that's always given to women. Oh,

478
00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:44.000
she's a strong minded woman. That phrase carries a superfluous quality.

479
00:31:44.039 --> 00:31:46.039
When you apply it to a man. You don't say

480
00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:50.799
he's a strong minded man, you know, and there's no

481
00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:56.480
reason why. And perfectionist is the same thing. And so

482
00:31:56.559 --> 00:32:02.480
if we look at the way that we talk about

483
00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:06.119
male and female perfectionists and the way we exalt them

484
00:32:06.359 --> 00:32:10.319
or punish them, it's really interesting. And some of the

485
00:32:10.359 --> 00:32:17.240
male perfectionists who we exalt and reward in our culture

486
00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:20.200
are people like the public persona. I don't know any

487
00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:23.960
of these people personally, so who knows, but the public

488
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:29.200
persona of Gordon Ramsay, for example, the chef turned media mogul,

489
00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:33.200
or James Cameron, the director. You know, we talk about

490
00:32:33.240 --> 00:32:37.079
these men and we say, well, they're perfectionists, and they

491
00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:40.480
become syndicated and we love them for it, and it's wonderful.

492
00:32:41.559 --> 00:32:46.799
But if you look at self defined perfectionists Serena Williams

493
00:32:47.640 --> 00:32:52.440
or on a wind tour, or women who really excel

494
00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:56.240
in their fields and really put their ambition on display.

495
00:32:57.039 --> 00:33:00.920
You see how they're immediately penalized. And I talk more

496
00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:04.359
about examples of this in the book. For their perfectionism,

497
00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:10.200
and if you look at women like Martha Stewart or

498
00:33:10.279 --> 00:33:15.079
Marie Condo, they are allowed quote unquote to be perfectionistic

499
00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:17.920
to their hearts content, and it's like, why is that?

500
00:33:17.960 --> 00:33:20.240
Why are they the most famous perfectionists and all the

501
00:33:20.279 --> 00:33:24.640
other women have to, you know, somewhat hide their perfectionism

502
00:33:24.920 --> 00:33:32.039
and their ambition and their exacting high standards. Well, Martha

503
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:41.160
Stewart's company, Martha Stewart Omnipedia, is based on archetypal homemaker interests,

504
00:33:41.720 --> 00:33:44.720
paint palettes that pop, how to throw a brunch in

505
00:33:44.759 --> 00:33:51.200
a pinch, weddings, social gatherings, Marie Condo, you know, her

506
00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:55.440
whole thing is tidying up. I mean, I'm a huge

507
00:33:55.599 --> 00:33:57.759
fan of both of these women. And Marie Condo's work

508
00:33:57.799 --> 00:34:02.640
is actually about a much deeper thing than tidying up,

509
00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:05.720
but on the surface, that's how it presents. And so

510
00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:10.559
we syndicate these women, we love them, and you know,

511
00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:14.760
someone like on a Wintur who's running Vogue and doing

512
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:19.360
all of these incredible initiatives for in so many directions,

513
00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:24.000
it's like she's a leader, but she's not a maternal leader, right,

514
00:34:24.119 --> 00:34:26.360
She's not warm and fuzzy and all the things that

515
00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:29.159
women are quote unquote supposed to be. So she's cast

516
00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:32.360
as a devil you know who is well dressed in Prada.

517
00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:39.880
And these are really interesting, not accidental constructs, and you know,

518
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:42.719
it feels very off brand, as I point out in

519
00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:46.159
my book to point out that before Martha Stewart started

520
00:34:46.199 --> 00:34:49.519
Martha Stewart Omnipedia, she was a stockbroker on Wall Street.

521
00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:52.400
Why do we not know that about Martha Stewart or

522
00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:57.119
think that about her? Because it's easier and more comfortable

523
00:34:57.599 --> 00:35:01.159
for us to think about these women in these sort

524
00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:06.280
of very feminine realms and all of none of this

525
00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:09.719
is a coincidence. And so my book is trying to

526
00:35:09.800 --> 00:35:14.639
blow the lid off on that and talk about how

527
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:19.280
women are getting the message to not be perfectionistic and

528
00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:23.599
instead to find balance, which is a directive I personally

529
00:35:23.679 --> 00:35:29.840
cannot stand because balance isn't real, and it's like it's

530
00:35:29.960 --> 00:35:34.880
not real, it doesn't exist, it's always in the future.

531
00:35:35.079 --> 00:35:39.239
After the holidays, after this very serious situation is handled

532
00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:44.960
once I finish this big work project, and balance never arrives.

533
00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:48.119
But we don't notice as women that it hasn't arrived

534
00:35:48.199 --> 00:35:52.639
because we're too busy blaming ourselves for its delay. And

535
00:35:53.719 --> 00:35:57.920
you know, we hand women this boulder of balance, remind

536
00:35:57.960 --> 00:36:01.719
them that it's heavy, and call them super heroes, particularly mothers,

537
00:36:02.559 --> 00:36:06.159
and then we parrot preach at them like fine balance,

538
00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:09.480
engage in self care, fine balance, engage in self care,

539
00:36:10.119 --> 00:36:15.280
and all of that is such a shallow offering. It's

540
00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:19.000
putting women on this wild goose chase to find something

541
00:36:19.079 --> 00:36:21.880
that is elusive for everyone and then feel like a

542
00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:25.000
personal failure when you inevitably don't achieve it.

543
00:36:25.320 --> 00:36:27.800
You've done a very good job of expressing that in

544
00:36:27.800 --> 00:36:30.880
the book, and I have to admit that for all

545
00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:34.199
of even my own thinking and reading and talking about

546
00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:38.039
this perfectionism and when it's whether it's healthy or whether

547
00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:41.119
it's unhealthy, I had never thought in that much detail

548
00:36:41.159 --> 00:36:44.320
about how gendered it actually is.

549
00:36:44.360 --> 00:36:47.320
And so you've done a great job of explaining that.

550
00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:49.800
I think that that there'll be a lot of little

551
00:36:49.880 --> 00:36:52.960
light bulb moments for a lot of people hearing that

552
00:36:53.119 --> 00:36:54.119
and reading that.

553
00:36:54.360 --> 00:36:58.039
I hope so I mean again, advantage of perfectionism is

554
00:36:59.079 --> 00:37:05.960
very detailed. No, there are tens of tens of casts,

555
00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:10.679
tens of thousands of pages, which my editor, to fabulous

556
00:37:10.760 --> 00:37:15.679
Nikki Papadopolis, was so graciously like, maybe we don't need

557
00:37:17.239 --> 00:37:21.079
all of this. She was so emotionally generous through the

558
00:37:21.079 --> 00:37:24.199
whole process of writing this book of because I couldn't

559
00:37:24.199 --> 00:37:29.440
stop writing, like I don't relate to writers black, I

560
00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:37.039
relate to writers like endless writing because this is a topic. Yeah,

561
00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:40.480
because it's also like, why isn't anyone talking about this?

562
00:37:41.159 --> 00:37:44.559
And you know, we're really setting up setting women up

563
00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:50.039
in particular to harm ourselves, not just with our own

564
00:37:50.079 --> 00:37:53.239
self talk of Oh I really want to do this,

565
00:37:53.320 --> 00:37:56.239
and it's really disappointing me and bothering me that I

566
00:37:56.360 --> 00:38:01.159
noticed that this could be better, and now I'm disappointed

567
00:38:01.159 --> 00:38:03.559
that I'm disappointed because I should just be easy going

568
00:38:03.559 --> 00:38:06.679
and relaxed about every single thing. It's such a spiral

569
00:38:06.760 --> 00:38:10.079
and it's so profoundly unnecessary at the end of the day.

570
00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:11.920
I mean, I was reading something even just the other

571
00:38:12.039 --> 00:38:16.440
day about self criticism, I think and goal striving. The

572
00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:20.519
fact that self criticism is not you know, is negatively

573
00:38:20.519 --> 00:38:24.280
correlated with goal progress and goal achievement. And there was

574
00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:26.920
something that that I read about perfectionism, and it said

575
00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:30.119
there is a healthy form of perfectionism that will help

576
00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:32.320
you to take you closer to your goals, and that

577
00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:36.920
there is an unhealthy form of perfectionism, which is, as

578
00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:40.599
we've said this being overly concerned with making mistakes. And

579
00:38:41.039 --> 00:38:43.400
the topic that you mentioned, the point you mentioned, which

580
00:38:43.400 --> 00:38:45.760
is about contingent self esteem, you know, having your whole

581
00:38:45.760 --> 00:38:49.480
sense of self worth contingent on you not making mistakes

582
00:38:49.639 --> 00:38:53.760
or achieving that outcome. So I've got to be honest

583
00:38:53.760 --> 00:38:55.559
when I read that myself, I thought, well, hang on

584
00:38:55.599 --> 00:38:58.719
a second. Overly concerned with mistakes? Isn't that the very

585
00:38:58.760 --> 00:39:03.320
definition of perfecttionism? But perhaps you have expressed that that

586
00:39:03.480 --> 00:39:09.519
is maybe not necessarily, But the contingent self esteem is

587
00:39:09.559 --> 00:39:13.159
a big is a big one, isn't it. So at

588
00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:16.039
the end of the day, however this presents, is it

589
00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:19.719
really about We've talked about self trust, but about striving

590
00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:25.320
for those ideals, not compromising your personal standards. It's okay

591
00:39:25.400 --> 00:39:28.519
to go for the best and not have to feel

592
00:39:28.519 --> 00:39:30.400
like you need to lower your standards in order to

593
00:39:30.440 --> 00:39:33.840
not be such a perfectionist, but just being willing to

594
00:39:34.119 --> 00:39:36.760
fail and make mistakes and not have your whole sense

595
00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:39.440
of self worth wrapped up in achievement.

596
00:39:39.880 --> 00:39:43.159
Yes, so it's all about self worth and self esteem

597
00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:45.920
and self worth are two different things, different things. Yeah,

598
00:39:46.159 --> 00:39:50.280
Doctor Brene Brown's research really highlights this beautifully. Self esteem

599
00:39:50.360 --> 00:39:53.199
is knowing that you're good at something or not good

600
00:39:53.239 --> 00:39:57.960
at something, Like I have high self esteem about being

601
00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:01.159
a good mom. I know I'm a good mom. Self

602
00:40:01.239 --> 00:40:04.559
worth is about what you feel you deserve as a

603
00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:08.920
human being. And people can have really high self esteem

604
00:40:09.079 --> 00:40:12.480
and very low self worth, and we conflate the two.

605
00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:16.639
And so what you're talking about is as is divided

606
00:40:16.679 --> 00:40:21.320
in the research world as perfectionistic strivings and perfectionistic concerns,

607
00:40:22.039 --> 00:40:25.440
and perfectionistic strivings are seen as healthy. Right, That's what

608
00:40:25.519 --> 00:40:28.719
I'm talking about. The innate impulse to reach for the

609
00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:34.400
ideal and perfectionistic concerns have to do with and are

610
00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:39.440
very connected to one's self worth. And you know, at

611
00:40:39.440 --> 00:40:43.920
the end of the day, if you only ask yourself

612
00:40:44.199 --> 00:40:48.760
one guiding question about whether your perfectionism is in an

613
00:40:48.840 --> 00:40:52.039
adaptive or maladaptive space, because it goes back and forth,

614
00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:55.119
because again, this is a fluid construct, as all identity

615
00:40:55.119 --> 00:40:59.320
constructs are. The question to ask yourself is am I

616
00:40:59.719 --> 00:41:05.440
being punitive with myself? And the opposite of being punitive

617
00:41:05.440 --> 00:41:10.320
with yourself is being compassionate with yourself. And it's not

618
00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:14.800
about am I feeling disappointed? It's not about do I

619
00:41:14.920 --> 00:41:18.800
wish this were different? Those feelings are very natural, and

620
00:41:19.159 --> 00:41:23.840
being compassionate with yourself looks like accepting them. And self

621
00:41:23.840 --> 00:41:29.239
compassion is I use doctor Kristin Nef's framework, a three

622
00:41:29.360 --> 00:41:36.639
step resiliency building tool that we underutilize, grossly underutilize as

623
00:41:36.679 --> 00:41:39.400
a culture because we don't understand how powerful it is.

624
00:41:40.639 --> 00:41:44.440
Self compassion is the thing that ignites progress, and we

625
00:41:44.599 --> 00:41:47.559
think that punishment is what ignites progress. That if we're

626
00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:52.079
hard on ourselves and we ride ourselves, then that's what's

627
00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:53.880
going to move the needle. And you know what, the

628
00:41:53.960 --> 00:41:57.679
difference between boiling water and hot water is one degree.

629
00:41:57.679 --> 00:41:59.960
So I'm going to keep pushing myself and la la la,

630
00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:04.280
and no pain, no gain. And it's like, actually, punishment

631
00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:08.639
not only doesn't work, it makes everything worse. And punishment

632
00:42:08.719 --> 00:42:15.239
is very different than discipline, accountability, rehabilitation. That's really what

633
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:18.400
I centered a chapter on is how do we use

634
00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:23.280
those three tools? What are they? If I can, if

635
00:42:23.320 --> 00:42:25.519
we have time, I would like to go over one

636
00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:27.760
of them because you continue to bring it up in

637
00:42:27.800 --> 00:42:30.199
a way that I think is so salutary and wonderful,

638
00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:37.199
and that is mindfulness. So Neff's framework is about self, kindness, mindfulness,

639
00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:42.079
and common humanity. And the mindfulness component is about feeling

640
00:42:42.119 --> 00:42:49.000
the disappointment, feeling the fear of inadequacy or whatever it

641
00:42:49.039 --> 00:42:53.880
may be. And instead of allowing that feeling to eclipse

642
00:42:53.880 --> 00:42:57.599
your emotional landscape, turning your turning your head for a second,

643
00:42:57.599 --> 00:43:01.480
and saying, what else do I also feel? Do I

644
00:43:01.519 --> 00:43:05.760
also feel excited about this thing that's happening on Saturday

645
00:43:05.800 --> 00:43:07.760
that I forgot about for a second. Do I also

646
00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:11.880
feel grateful that my body is generally in really good

647
00:43:11.880 --> 00:43:16.800
health right now? Do I also feel playful, sensual, curious

648
00:43:16.840 --> 00:43:19.360
about this other thing that has nothing to do with

649
00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:22.400
what I'm talking about? Do I feel relief that even

650
00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:26.440
though I'm disappointed, at least now I know. And mindfulness

651
00:43:26.480 --> 00:43:30.119
is about being able to understand that you are not

652
00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:35.000
having just one tunnel of experience, but you are a

653
00:43:35.079 --> 00:43:38.039
human being, a whole human being with a myriad of

654
00:43:38.079 --> 00:43:42.000
experiences that are happening within you. And so again I

655
00:43:42.159 --> 00:43:45.280
love that approach because you're not trying to get rid

656
00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:50.400
of the disappointment. Eradication approaches don't work and they're not necessary.

657
00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:56.960
It's about scanning the entire space and saying, oh, this

658
00:43:57.000 --> 00:44:00.400
isn't all I feel, this isn't a commentary on who

659
00:44:00.440 --> 00:44:03.800
I am. And same thing with mistakes. Yes I made

660
00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:07.920
a mistake, but I've also turned my head to the

661
00:44:08.039 --> 00:44:10.400
side and seen I've done a lot of things well

662
00:44:10.440 --> 00:44:13.000
this week too that I'm just not thinking about right now.

663
00:44:13.320 --> 00:44:15.679
If I can be a little bit more mindful about that,

664
00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:20.639
then that is helpful. So self compassion isn't just being

665
00:44:20.679 --> 00:44:24.800
super polite to yourself or you know, letting yourself off

666
00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:29.159
the hook. It's about really building resilience so you can

667
00:44:29.239 --> 00:44:31.760
continue to show up as the whole human being you

668
00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:36.840
are and continue to put yourself forward towards whatever you're

669
00:44:36.840 --> 00:44:38.119
trying to contribute or do.

670
00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:43.400
I'm a huge fan of self compassion and Kristin nef

671
00:44:43.599 --> 00:44:47.400
She's been on the podcast twice. So anybody who's new

672
00:44:47.519 --> 00:44:50.360
around here and who is interested in that, go back

673
00:44:50.400 --> 00:44:52.760
and listen to those previous episodes or go and grab

674
00:44:52.840 --> 00:44:55.639
kristin Nev's book, because I'm always banging on about self

675
00:44:55.639 --> 00:44:58.760
compassion too, so I was really grateful and unsurprised to

676
00:44:58.800 --> 00:45:03.280
see that you also devoted quite a bit of quite

677
00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:05.719
a bit of space in the book to the power

678
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:10.079
of self compassion to help to neutralize some of the

679
00:45:10.159 --> 00:45:15.480
negative effects of an unhealthy perfectionism. Katherine, I feel like

680
00:45:15.559 --> 00:45:18.199
that is a really great place to end this conversation.

681
00:45:18.360 --> 00:45:19.559
Just what you shared just then.

682
00:45:19.599 --> 00:45:23.079
Is such a great advice, Like, yes, I feel this,

683
00:45:23.159 --> 00:45:25.000
but what else do I feel? I feel like that

684
00:45:25.199 --> 00:45:29.360
is so powerful and that's something that anybody can go

685
00:45:29.480 --> 00:45:34.159
away and can remember to implement straight away. But I

686
00:45:34.239 --> 00:45:36.599
do want to congratulate you on the book.

687
00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:39.599
You've done a really, really fabulous job.

688
00:45:39.639 --> 00:45:42.079
I know that it's going to do very well, and

689
00:45:42.119 --> 00:45:44.599
I think that many of my listeners will be keen

690
00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:47.320
to grab a copy The Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control.

691
00:45:47.599 --> 00:45:50.159
And you do have the quiz, don't you on your website?

692
00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:52.599
Where can people find that, Catherine.

693
00:45:52.119 --> 00:45:57.599
I do? You can go to Perfectionist guide dot com.

694
00:45:57.760 --> 00:46:01.840
I'm on Instagram at Catherine Morgan Schaffler and that's also

695
00:46:01.880 --> 00:46:05.440
the name of my website, Katherine Morganshaffler dot com.

696
00:46:05.440 --> 00:46:07.440
I will put all of that into the show notes.

697
00:46:07.960 --> 00:46:08.880
Thank you for being here.

698
00:46:09.199 --> 00:46:12.119
It has been such a pleasure. I know. I'm sure

699
00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:14.320
you just have so many people who want to be

700
00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:17.239
on your show, and I feel so grateful that you've

701
00:46:17.320 --> 00:46:20.559
chosen me because this is something that's so close to

702
00:46:20.599 --> 00:46:23.039
my heart and mind, and I hope that everyone hears

703
00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:26.039
the messages in the book and messages that you share

704
00:46:26.079 --> 00:46:27.039
all the time on this show.

705
00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:33.199
You can find out more about Catherine's work and take

706
00:46:33.239 --> 00:46:36.000
the quiz to find out what kind of perfectionist you

707
00:46:36.159 --> 00:46:41.480
are at perfectionists guide dot com. Catherine's book, The Perfectionist's

708
00:46:41.480 --> 00:46:44.960
Guide to Losing Control is available now in all bookstores,

709
00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:47.400
and if you would like to discuss any of these

710
00:46:47.440 --> 00:46:49.920
ideas with Katherine and me personally.

711
00:46:50.400 --> 00:46:52.079
I'm thrilled to announce that she will be.

712
00:46:52.000 --> 00:46:55.039
One of many guest experts offering intimate Q and A

713
00:46:55.119 --> 00:46:58.480
sessions for the members in my Beyond Confident community.

714
00:46:58.920 --> 00:47:00.119
Enrollments for Beyond.

715
00:47:00.119 --> 00:47:03.199
Confident our opening any day now and will be open

716
00:47:03.239 --> 00:47:05.639
only for a limited time, so be sure to get

717
00:47:05.639 --> 00:47:07.920
your name on the wait list to be the first

718
00:47:08.079 --> 00:47:11.360
to hear when enrollments open, that is at cast done

719
00:47:11.400 --> 00:47:15.360
dot com, forward slash beyond Dash. Confident, I'll put the

720
00:47:15.400 --> 00:47:17.679
link in the bio as well as the link to

721
00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:21.679
Catherine's website. I hope you enjoyed this conversation. As always,

722
00:47:21.679 --> 00:47:23.400
if you love the show, please do leave us a

723
00:47:23.480 --> 00:47:26.360
rating and a review. I cannot wait to catch you

724
00:47:26.360 --> 00:47:35.360
next week on another episode of Crappy to Happy Listener,