Embrace your inner perfectionist with Katherine Morgan-Schafler

0:02 A Listener production. Katherine Morgan Schaeffler is a psychotherapist in New York City who earned her bachelor's degree in psychology at UC Berkeley before obtaining two masters from Columbia University. Catherine has a very long impressive bio, including working as an on site therapist at Google. She currently works in private practice in New. York with ambitious, perfectionistic women, and she has come to understand that we are thinking about perfectionism all wrong. In this fascinating conversation, Catherine and I discuss the difference between healthy and unhealthy perfectionism, why perfectionism is a gendered issue.

0:45 This is something I had not thought about. No one tells men that they should lower their perfectionist standards, the five different types of perfectionist, and how when harnessed correctly, perfectionism can be your superpower. If you have I've ever felt tortured by perfectionism, or if you are tired of being told that your perfectionism is a bad thing, then this episode is for you. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Katherine Morgen Schaffler. Katherine, Welcome to the Crappy to Happy Podcast. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really thrilled to be here. Congratulations on your book, which I had an advanced copy of.

1:26 I was so excited to talk to you because, as I was just saying to you off air, the topic of perfectionism is a big one for women. It's a big one for listeners in my community. It's something that I talk about a lot, and I was really interested to actually get your perspective on this topic. So, as you know, when we talk about perfectionism, and I've even talked about this myself about we have to get over perfectionism and accept that good enough is good enough and not be completely undone by perfectionism, and you've got a bit of a different take on it. Can you share perspective on perfectionism? Yes, So I have also tried that method which I talk about in The Perfectionist Guide to Lose in Control as the eradication method, because I've heard the same messages that you have that we all have that perfectionism is bad.

2:20 If you are a perfectionist, you need to fix something about yourself so that you can learn how to be balanced and healthy and good. And what I discovered in my work as a psychotherapist and also just my own work on myself is that that method does not work. And I became really curious about why does this not work and if it doesn't work, why do we keep telling people to approach perfectionism in this way? And what I found when I delved into the research is that perfectionist is an enduring identity marker. So that means the people who relate to that term and really identify as a perfectionist tend to identify and hold on to that identity throughout their entire lifetime. And it's sort of like thinking of yourself as a romantic or an activist. In the same way that I would never tell a romantic it's great that you believe in love, just don't believe in love every time, And in the same way I would never tell an activist listen, caring is good, just don't care so much that you know it begins to dictate all your decisions in life. You just can't tell a perfectionist, look, I know that you want to do a great job, but just don't be so much of a perfectionist. And I became really frustrated the ubiquity of that message. And then there was another layer of who is getting that message which is overwhelmingly directed towards women

3:55 more than men? And then there was just every time I thought I had it figured out, there was like an another layer of, well, what other messages are women getting that men aren't getting. Oh, women are being told to find balance at a totally disproportionate rate to men. Why is that? And how are all these things interconnected? What's the interplay? And so yes, my approach is to flip the paradigm of perfectionism on its head, to talk about the research around perfectionism, which for the past few decades has focused on perfectionism as a multi dimensional construct, so as this kaleidoscopic thing that can be expressed both adaptively the healthy version and maladaptively the unhealthy version. So my approach is not about thinking of perfectionism in a binary way as good or bad. It's about thinking about it holistically and thinking about yourself holistically as a whole human being who wants to operate from a best self but also has like a regular self and also has you know, what you might call a lower self, as somebody who's sort of making decisions from an unconscious place and just understanding that that's part of being a human being, and that the way to move through that is to accept it and embrace it and then explore the ways to use your strengths to help you be the person that you want to be.

5:24 And you make such a valid point that there is, and as a psychologist myself, there is an adaptive way of being perfectionist, and there is a maladaptive way. What we see and what we talk about is always the maladaptive. You're quite right that it doesn't help to reduce all perfectionism and all of it's potentially really positive aspects, things that really help people to do a good job, and attention to detail, all that healthy striving to put that all under the one umbrella of this what is essentially the maladaptive form of perfecttion right. Yes, And interestingly, if you go all the way back to the first time that perfectionism was presented in psychological literature, you will find the work of doctor Alfred Adler, who I am obsessed with and became obsessed with in researching the book The Perfectionist Guide to Lose in Control, and Adler framed perfectionism in this beautiful way as this innate human quality that all of us possess. And he is the guy who coined the term inferiority complex, and he knew in real time that people were misunderstanding what the inferiority complex was. And really, what's so beautiful about Adler is that he framed all neuroses, as he put it, as an absence of connection. And so he looked at mental health through the lens of connection instead of the way that we look at mental health now, which is

6:56 through the lens of individual pathology. And we look at something that's dysfunctional, we hone in on the person and we say, what's wrong with you? Instead, we could, again the word holistic comes to mind, see something that's dysfunctional and ask better questions like where are you feeling disconnected in your life? How can we connect more to each other? What community support is missing right now? And so I really loved Adler's framing and I discovered the language that I needed and felt about perfectionism, which is, you know, he calls it the eternal melody we all hear. He believed, unlike Freud, that human beings are innately good. So when you see the reality plunk down in your lap and the ideal in front of you, and you imagine a better and improved ideal. If we were left to our own devices and we were supported and connected, we would be pursuing deals that helped the whole, helped the collective.

8:06 And that if he essentially said, if everyone was clean, clothed, free, safe and loved, there would be no perfectionism. But because we understand that there's so much disconnectedness in our culture, there's something in us that is propelling us towards this mission to take care of each other, and that is perfectionism. This perfect ideal, from his perspective, was a societal one. And even just thinking about it that way, whether you agree with that conceptualization or not, just understanding that there are many ways to look at this construct and looking at it in the way that we look at it now, which is really reductive and myopic, and saying, well, a perfectionist is this type a person who is rigid and wants everything to be perfect at all time times. It's such an oversimplification and it bulldozes over so much of the nuance and real richness of this construct.

9:09 Yeah, fascinating, and I totally agree that with what you're saying about this individualization of pathology when obviously any sort of mental health issues, emotional struggle, challenge that we grapple with is so much to do. You know, it's the context of the culture and the society and the world that we live in, and there is so much more at play. One hundred percent. We just don't have names for cultural disorders, but we should. And it doesn't mean that individual pathology isn't real. It is, but it's not the whole story. No. The other interesting thing that you just said, and you describe in the book is that there is also just not one perfectionist. You know, I have had clients myself in the past, and you know, people who have said me, I'm going, oh, say there are a little bit of perfectionism going on here, and they say, oh, gosh, no, you couldn't call mere perfectionists. Like my house is a mess.

10:06 You couldn't call mere perfectionist. You know, that's not necessarily what perfectionism is. And often what I would say to people is it's not even necessarily what appears on the outside. It's what you're doing to yourself on the inside, like in your own mind when you're not achieving those ideals with those standards that you set for yourself. But you've actually broken down perfectionism into basically five different profiles, five or different sort of presentations of these perfectionist tendencies, which I found really interesting, and I think that would be really helpful for a lot of people to hear what they are to help them to better understand where they might fit, like how perfectionism might present for them, because I think to go on from that, then what you've really presented is we'll get to this later, is you know, how do you harness the best bits of that?

10:59 You know? How? Oh, that's what we're getting to, isn't like how do you harness the positive without being undone by the potential kind of consequences? So could we go to the five perfectionist time? Yes, Cass, thank you for bringing that up. And I personally no one has to agree with me, But I don't know how to spend a better three minutes of my life than taking an online pop psycho kiz. So if you'd like to take the quiz about which type of perfectionist you are, you can go to perfectionist guide dot com. But yes, I started to notice patterns in my work, and I realized before I wrote this book, I really felt like I could never be a perfectionist.

11:41 I'm obsessed with doctor Brene Brown and still am. I never know where my phone is or my lip bomb, and I don't mind, you know, a little bit of mess, a little bit of you know, just I'm not a rigid person, or so I thought. But still the underlying theme of perfectionism continued to sort of manifest within me. So let me get to the five types. The five types are intense perfectionists, and these are people who are effortlessly direct. They maintain razor sharp focus on achieving the goal the outcome, but left unchecked, they can impose standards that go from being really high to impossible, and they can be very punitive with themselves and those around them if those impossible standards are not met. So backing up a touch, all of these profiles have pros and cons, advantages and liabilities. Next is classic perfectionists, and this is what we tend to think of. I think when we think of the perfectionists of someone who's very buttoned up, proppy.

12:54 These people are highly reliable. They add structure to wherever they go pretty effortlessly but left unchecked, they struggle to adapt to spontaneity or change in routine, and they can experience difficulty connecting meaningfully with others because if you're not also engendering some kind of connection or interpersonal priority, classic perfectionists can come off as transactional. Parisian perfectionists possess a live wire understanding of the power of connection, and so for these kinds of perfectionists, they want the ideal connection they want to be. This sometimes shows up as being, you know, the need to be perfectly liked, the desire to perfectly like others, the desire to connect perfectly to themselves.

13:49 You see a lot of this in personal development, right of I want to perfectly love myself and perfectly be patient with myself, And left unchecked, this type of perfectionism can tastasize into some really dysfunctional people pleasing where you're prioritizing the other person so much that you have abandoned yourself in the process. And then there's the procrastinator perfectionist. And most simply put, this kind of perfectionist once the beginning of something to feel or be perfect. So on the pro's side, these are people who are excellent at preparing.

14:29 They are not impulsive, They are very thoughtful about their decision making, and they can see situations from a three hundred and sixty degree angle. On the con side, they can forget about the law of diminishing returns, and their preparative measures can overwhelm them to the point of indecisiveness. So they become paralyzed by this type of perfectionism, and then they just don't act. They never do it because the beginning of any process is rarely perfect. It's never the right time to go on vacation or to break up with someone, or to ask for a raise or whatever it is. And the counterpart and the last profile to procrastinative perfectionists are messy perfectionists and massy perfectionists. Unlike procrastinative perfectionists, are in love with the beginning, can effortlessly push through the anxiety of starting something new. They find it intoxicating. They're naturally enthusiastic, they're superstar idea generators. But they want the middle of the process to feel as perfect as the beginning. And when they inevitably hit that tedium and that sort of boring middle of okay, I started the company, and this is the perfect name of the company, and this is the mission, and this is how we're going to change the world. What do you mean I have to pay taxes and file my PLLC with the state? What is that? This is boring? This is terrible. Then it all kind of starts to unravel

16:02 for them, and so unchecked, this type of perfectionism looks like saying yes to a million things but actually committing to nothing. And the danger of all these unchecked types is that you begin to create a false narrative around who you are. So, for example, a messy perfectionist might say, oh, well this fell apart because I'm just not smart enough to figure it out, or no one takes me seriously, or I'm just not disciplined enough or whatever it is. And it's like, no, none of that is true. It's more so about when you need to add support and being aware of what that support looks like.

16:47 So are you saying then that the thread that runs through all of those five themes, there's a different focus for where that ideal, you know, where that sort of standard sits. But it sounds like, also when you talk about a false narrative, that they're all underpinned by a level of self criticism. The difference between whether you're a healthy perfectionist or an unhealthy perfectionist. It's not whether you experience perfectionism right, and to me, how I define perfectionist is a person who notices the gap between the reality plunk down in our laps and this ideal that we can imagine or perhaps infinite ideals, and not only notices that gap, but feels a compulsion to bridge that gap actively work towards bridging that gap, which is the difference between an idealist and a perfectionist. Perfectionism is healthy or unhealthy basically depending on whether or not you are punitive with yourself when you inevitably cannot bridge that gap because as healthy perfectionists contain awareness of ideals are meant to inspire, they are not meant to be achieved. And two questions to ask yourself to help guide your awareness of whether your perfectionism is healthy or not is how am I striving? And why am I striving? So the how is am I striving

18:22 in a way that hurts me or hurts people around me? For example, are you not giving yourself opportunities to rest? Are you lacerating yourself with negative self talk, right, And if you're doing that, then that's maladaptive perfectionism. The why am I striving is what is motivating this propulsion for you to bridge that gap? Are you doing that because you think bridging the gap is going to certify your belonging into some kind of realm of joy or happiness?

19:03 Or in other words, are you doing that because you think that after you achieve the thing, then you will finally be able to feel joy or feel like you have achieved something and are now worthy of relaxing or being loved or being accepted. And if you're striving in order to be worthy of love, joy, freedom, dignity, or connection, your perfectionism is manifesting in an unhealthy way. Adaptive perfectionism is about understanding that you are a whole person now and that as a whole human being, you need not do a single thing. You don't even need to get out of bed or even open your eyes to be worthy of all the love, joy, dignity, connection, and freedom that the quote unquote best version of you would be worthy of. It's pre arranged. You're already a whole human being.

20:13 You don't need to achieve anything in order to achieve your wholeness. You're born with it, and so adaptive perfectionists strive knowing that and wanting to achieve the ideal. Maladaptive perfectionists don't know that they feel broken in some way, and they strive needing to achieve the ideal because they see achieving the ideal as the key to their wholeness and therefore their deservedness I don't know if that's word, but their deservedness of feeling joy. And you know how this looks in real time because we're talking about I'm talking about this in a bit of a lofty way right now. It's very nuanced. Right We don't talk to ourselves like this in our heads and say, you know what, I'm going to stay up an hour later even though I'm exhausted, because I don't feel worthy of love right now, and so doing this will help me feel worthy of this later. Nobody actually registers this stuff that way. What it looks like isugh, I can't wait to be done with this. Then I can finally relax, or then I can finally reward myself by going on vacation. And it looks like really taking natural feelings like joy and intellectualizing

21:43 them and making an excellent plan to be really happy and really enjoy your life later instead of saying I deserve these things now, and I'm going to allow myself to feel joy and simple pleasures now. I'm going to allow myself to sit down to a conversation with a friend or someone I love or think is funny without agenda, not because I earned it, but because I want to. And perfectionists are scared to do that because they're like, what if I fall so deep into my pleasure that I become hedonists? And it's like goes full circle back to the identity marker of you, can't you do not as a perfectionist have it in you to sit back and chill and do nothing. And so the thing that makes being a perfectionist so difficult initially of like I have to, I want you and I have to, is what also makes it so easy later, which is like, you will enjoy your life and then a part of you will want to return to the striving because it's a natural, healthy part of you, and that will feel pleasurable to you doing it in a way that is adaptive.

23:02 Such a good explanation So what you're saying there is it really just comes back to trusting, trusting yourself and trusting that you're enough, and also trusting that you're not going to get sloppy and lazy and waste life. If you take a break today or have a you know, let yourself relax and enjoy life, that that drive to succeed and to do well and to reach the ideal will still be there. Right, And I see it as a drive to contribute. I think that's what it really is. And you're not going to wake up one day and say I don't want to contribute. I just want to you know, sit back, watch Netflix and do nothing with my life. That's not going to happen. And the way I explained it in the book is if you imagine the nicest, kindest person you know trying to be really mean and nasty, it's like, whatever version of that is, there's still probably being considerate.

24:09 You know, if you are truly a kind person, you don't have it in you to just like be super nasty all the time. We all have, we all glitch. Right. Mental health, in my view, is very fluid and context dependent. So that doesn't mean that perfectionists can't become very unfocused at times and forget about how they want to contribute or what their intention is. But I love that you use the word trust. And the whole last chapter of the book is about trust, because the first part of the book is about dismantling perfectionism and thinking about it in this entirely new way. It's like think outside the box and throw the box away. The second part is more practical tools like ten new ways to think, eight new behavioral strategies. But the last chapter really shares the message of none of this stuff matters if you don't trust yourself. Healing is not about knowing what to do.

25:13 In many ways, we already all know what to do into it. Intuitively, healing is about learning to trust yourself. And it doesn't matter if you know what to do if you don't trust yourself to do it. And trusting myself has been you know, I don't like the things of the word journey because it's so cheesy, but it has been a real journey, and not not because I didn't want to trust myself, but because I didn't know what it looked like to not trust myself. For example, even just trusting my body trusting my body to know when I need rest and when I don't. I used to This is going to sound so bizarre but to some people, but I used to almost feel like when I was tired in the middle of the day that I was doing something wrong, Like why am I tired?

26:09 I shouldn't be tired. The sun is still out. I must you know, not be balanced enough and not be doing this right and not be whatever. And it's like just being able to trust if you're tired your body needs rest and not having to calculate why it needs rest or how much rest it needs. It was just you know, taking time and resting. And so I stopped in the middle of writing this book sleeping with an alarm clock, because first of all, I have a small child, so there's only so much you know, time in the morning before she gets up and starts jumping on me. But also I used to wake up afore I am every single morning, no matter what. And I thought that that was me being disciplined, and that I need to do that. And in the midst of writing this book, I realized that part of that is discipline, but a bigger part of it is me not trusting myself to do what I need to do when I need to do it, and so being able to just wake up now and you know, it's an hour later than when I think I, quote unquote should wake up, and saying to myself, I have all the time and talent to do what I need to do, and my body needed that rest and I'm feeling good. And similarly, if I

27:42 wake up at like three thirty in the morning and I'm wide awake, I used to and that would happen, like make myself stay in bed because I was like, it's too weird to wake up at three thirty in the morning. But now I get out of bed. I'm like, my body's awake right now, and I'm going to do whatever I need to do, And so really turning things inward and being able to use myself as my own guide instead of the clock or someone else's expectations. You know, going off on a tangent here, but that's what one aspect of rebuilding trust with myself looked like.

28:25 I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe so that you get notified when you epps drop and head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and leave us a rating and review. You said this is going to sound bizarre to some people. I don't think it sounds bizarre at all. I think everybody listening to this is not in a long going I know exactly what you mean. I've had the same thoughts. I do the same thing. And I was thinking as you were talking, Catherine, that you know you said earlier on about the gendered nature of perfectionism, and I think you know, other examples that come to mind are.

29:13 For women, are I'm. Always looking to an outside an expert, this eating plan, that diet, that workout program. I need to look like this, be like this, present like this, be this kind of parent. You know, we're looking for parenting books. Do you know how I guess I don't know if there's a question in this, but how much of that you know? It's all a part of this perfectionist problem. Right, So perfectionist is a highly gendered term, and I want to nip this in the bud culturally because in the same word that in the same way that BASI was a term that was highly gendered, and we became aware of it and how languige, which regulates gender performance expectations, we need to become aware of how the word perfectionist is regulating gender performance expectations. So the word bossy is typically a word ascribed to young girls and potentially women.

30:18 It's not a word that you often say to boys because the implicit messaging in that word and the regulatory function of that word is to tell girls, don't be authoritative. That's not a feminine quality, so you need to sit back and not be so bossy. Don't be so bossy. And I began examining a lot of the words that we used, like the word resting bitch face. For example, have you heard that phrase, yes, of course, okay, So notice that there is no resting asshole face or jerk face or whatever. And when you look at why is that.

31:01 Why is there only that phrase for women, it's because the implicit messaging there is you are expected as a woman to be pleasant and palatable and smiling always. Cheerfulness is part of what you need to bring to the table, and men don't have that expectation. So that's why when men express a neutral facial expression. You don't call it anything other than normal. There's no word for it. And there are lots of words like this, like strong minded, for example, is a descriptor that's always given to women. Oh, she's a strong minded woman. That phrase carries a superfluous quality.

31:44 When you apply it to a man. You don't say he's a strong minded man, you know, and there's no reason why. And perfectionist is the same thing. And so if we look at the way that we talk about male and female perfectionists and the way we exalt them or punish them, it's really interesting. And some of the male perfectionists who we exalt and reward in our culture are people like the public persona. I don't know any of these people personally, so who knows, but the public persona of Gordon Ramsay, for example, the chef turned media mogul, or James Cameron, the director. You know, we talk about these men and we say, well, they're perfectionists, and they become syndicated and we love them for it, and it's wonderful.

32:41 But if you look at self defined perfectionists Serena Williams or on a wind tour, or women who really excel in their fields and really put their ambition on display. You see how they're immediately penalized. And I talk more about examples of this in the book. For their perfectionism, and if you look at women like Martha Stewart or Marie Condo, they are allowed quote unquote to be perfectionistic to their hearts content, and it's like, why is that? Why are they the most famous perfectionists and all the other women have to, you know, somewhat hide their perfectionism and their ambition and their exacting high standards. Well, Martha Stewart's company, Martha Stewart Omnipedia, is based on archetypal homemaker interests, paint palettes that pop, how to throw a brunch in a pinch, weddings, social gatherings, Marie Condo, you know, her whole thing is tidying up. I mean, I'm a huge fan of both of these women. And Marie Condo's work is actually about a much deeper thing than tidying up, but on the surface, that's how it presents. And so we syndicate these women, we love them, and you know,

34:11 someone like on a Wintur who's running Vogue and doing all of these incredible initiatives for in so many directions, it's like she's a leader, but she's not a maternal leader, right, She's not warm and fuzzy and all the things that women are quote unquote supposed to be. So she's cast as a devil you know who is well dressed in Prada. And these are really interesting, not accidental constructs, and you know, it feels very off brand, as I point out in my book to point out that before Martha Stewart started Martha Stewart Omnipedia, she was a stockbroker on Wall Street. Why do we not know that about Martha Stewart or think that about her? Because it's easier and more comfortable for us to think about these women in these sort of very feminine realms and all of none of this is a coincidence. And so my book is trying to blow the lid off on that and talk about how women are getting the message to not be perfectionistic and instead to find balance, which is a directive I personally cannot stand because balance isn't real, and it's like it's not real, it doesn't exist, it's always in the future.

35:35 After the holidays, after this very serious situation is handled once I finish this big work project, and balance never arrives. But we don't notice as women that it hasn't arrived because we're too busy blaming ourselves for its delay. And you know, we hand women this boulder of balance, remind them that it's heavy, and call them super heroes, particularly mothers, and then we parrot preach at them like fine balance, engage in self care, fine balance, engage in self care, and all of that is such a shallow offering. It's putting women on this wild goose chase to find something that is elusive for everyone and then feel like a personal failure when you inevitably don't achieve it.

36:25 You've done a very good job of expressing that in the book, and I have to admit that for all of even my own thinking and reading and talking about this perfectionism and when it's whether it's healthy or whether it's unhealthy, I had never thought in that much detail about how gendered it actually is. And so you've done a great job of explaining that. I think that that there'll be a lot of little light bulb moments for a lot of people hearing that and reading that. I hope so I mean again, advantage of perfectionism is very detailed. No, there are tens of tens of casts, tens of thousands of pages, which my editor, to fabulous Nikki Papadopolis, was so graciously like, maybe we don't need all of this. She was so emotionally generous through the whole process of writing this book of because I couldn't stop writing, like I don't relate to writers black, I relate to writers like endless writing because this is a topic. Yeah, because it's also like, why isn't anyone talking about this?

37:41 And you know, we're really setting up setting women up in particular to harm ourselves, not just with our own self talk of Oh I really want to do this, and it's really disappointing me and bothering me that I noticed that this could be better, and now I'm disappointed that I'm disappointed because I should just be easy going and relaxed about every single thing. It's such a spiral and it's so profoundly unnecessary at the end of the day. I mean, I was reading something even just the other day about self criticism, I think and goal striving. The fact that self criticism is not you know, is negatively correlated with goal progress and goal achievement. And there was something that that I read about perfectionism, and it said there is a healthy form of perfectionism that will help you to take you closer to your goals, and that there is an unhealthy form of perfectionism, which is, as we've said this being overly concerned with making mistakes. And the topic that you mentioned, the point you mentioned, which is about contingent self esteem, you know, having your whole sense of self worth contingent on you not making mistakes or achieving that outcome. So I've got to be honest when I read that myself, I thought, well, hang on a second. Overly concerned with mistakes? Isn't that the very definition of perfecttionism? But perhaps you have expressed that that is maybe not necessarily, But the contingent self esteem is a big is a big one, isn't it. So at

39:13 the end of the day, however this presents, is it really about We've talked about self trust, but about striving for those ideals, not compromising your personal standards. It's okay to go for the best and not have to feel like you need to lower your standards in order to not be such a perfectionist, but just being willing to fail and make mistakes and not have your whole sense of self worth wrapped up in achievement. Yes, so it's all about self worth and self esteem and self worth are two different things, different things. Yeah, Doctor Brene Brown's research really highlights this beautifully. Self esteem is knowing that you're good at something or not good at something, Like I have high self esteem about being a good mom. I know I'm a good mom. Self worth is about what you feel you deserve as a human being. And people can have really high self esteem and very low self worth, and we conflate the two.

40:13 And so what you're talking about is as is divided in the research world as perfectionistic strivings and perfectionistic concerns, and perfectionistic strivings are seen as healthy. Right, That's what I'm talking about. The innate impulse to reach for the ideal and perfectionistic concerns have to do with and are very connected to one's self worth. And you know, at the end of the day, if you only ask yourself one guiding question about whether your perfectionism is in an adaptive or maladaptive space, because it goes back and forth, because again, this is a fluid construct, as all identity constructs are. The question to ask yourself is am I being punitive with myself? And the opposite of being punitive with yourself is being compassionate with yourself. And it's not about am I feeling disappointed? It's not about do I wish this were different? Those feelings are very natural, and being compassionate with yourself looks like accepting them. And self compassion is I use doctor Kristin Nef's framework, a three step resiliency building tool that we underutilize, grossly underutilize as a culture because we don't understand how powerful it is.

41:40 Self compassion is the thing that ignites progress, and we think that punishment is what ignites progress. That if we're hard on ourselves and we ride ourselves, then that's what's going to move the needle. And you know what, the difference between boiling water and hot water is one degree. So I'm going to keep pushing myself and la la la, and no pain, no gain. And it's like, actually, punishment not only doesn't work, it makes everything worse. And punishment is very different than discipline, accountability, rehabilitation. That's really what I centered a chapter on is how do we use those three tools? What are they? If I can, if we have time, I would like to go over one of them because you continue to bring it up in a way that I think is so salutary and wonderful, and that is mindfulness. So Neff's framework is about self, kindness, mindfulness, and common humanity. And the mindfulness component is about feeling the disappointment, feeling the fear of inadequacy or whatever it may be. And instead of allowing that feeling to eclipse your emotional landscape, turning your turning your head for a second, and saying, what else do I also feel? Do I also feel excited about this thing that's happening on Saturday that I forgot about for a second. Do I also feel grateful that my body is generally in really good

43:11 health right now? Do I also feel playful, sensual, curious about this other thing that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about? Do I feel relief that even though I'm disappointed, at least now I know. And mindfulness is about being able to understand that you are not having just one tunnel of experience, but you are a human being, a whole human being with a myriad of experiences that are happening within you. And so again I love that approach because you're not trying to get rid of the disappointment. Eradication approaches don't work and they're not necessary. It's about scanning the entire space and saying, oh, this isn't all I feel, this isn't a commentary on who I am. And same thing with mistakes. Yes I made a mistake, but I've also turned my head to the side and seen I've done a lot of things well this week too that I'm just not thinking about right now.

44:13 If I can be a little bit more mindful about that, then that is helpful. So self compassion isn't just being super polite to yourself or you know, letting yourself off the hook. It's about really building resilience so you can continue to show up as the whole human being you are and continue to put yourself forward towards whatever you're trying to contribute or do. I'm a huge fan of self compassion and Kristin nef She's been on the podcast twice. So anybody who's new around here and who is interested in that, go back and listen to those previous episodes or go and grab kristin Nev's book, because I'm always banging on about self compassion too, so I was really grateful and unsurprised to see that you also devoted quite a bit of quite a bit of space in the book to the power of self compassion to help to neutralize some of the negative effects of an unhealthy perfectionism. Katherine, I feel like that is a really great place to end this conversation.

45:18 Just what you shared just then. Is such a great advice, Like, yes, I feel this, but what else do I feel? I feel like that is so powerful and that's something that anybody can go away and can remember to implement straight away. But I do want to congratulate you on the book. You've done a really, really fabulous job. I know that it's going to do very well, and I think that many of my listeners will be keen to grab a copy The Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control. And you do have the quiz, don't you on your website? Where can people find that, Catherine. I do? You can go to Perfectionist guide dot com. I'm on Instagram at Catherine Morgan Schaffler and that's also the name of my website, Katherine Morganshaffler dot com.

46:05 I will put all of that into the show notes. Thank you for being here. It has been such a pleasure. I know. I'm sure you just have so many people who want to be on your show, and I feel so grateful that you've chosen me because this is something that's so close to my heart and mind, and I hope that everyone hears the messages in the book and messages that you share all the time on this show. You can find out more about Catherine's work and take the quiz to find out what kind of perfectionist you are at perfectionists guide dot com. Catherine's book, The Perfectionist's Guide to Losing Control is available now in all bookstores, and if you would like to discuss any of these ideas with Katherine and me personally.

46:50 I'm thrilled to announce that she will be. One of many guest experts offering intimate Q and A sessions for the members in my Beyond Confident community. Enrollments for Beyond. Confident our opening any day now and will be open only for a limited time, so be sure to get your name on the wait list to be the first to hear when enrollments open, that is at cast done dot com, forward slash beyond Dash. Confident, I'll put the link in the bio as well as the link to Catherine's website. I hope you enjoyed this conversation. As always, if you love the show, please do leave us a rating and a review. I cannot wait to catch you next week on another episode of Crappy to Happy Listener,