Sept. 5, 2021

Fierce Self-Compassion with Dr Kristin Neff: Part Two

Fierce Self-Compassion with Dr Kristin Neff: Part Two
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Fierce Self-Compassion with Dr Kristin Neff: Part Two
Fierce Self-Compassion with Dr Kristin Neff: Part Two
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Season 6 Personal Growth & Healing Mindfulness & Acceptance

This episode is Part Two of Cass’ conversation with Dr Kristin Neff about Self-Compassion. In the previous episode, Dr Neff explained the far-reaching benefits of self-compassion and how to apply it in your life. This week, she digs into the more fierce aspect of self-compassion and how you can use the skill of being kind to yourself to speak up, claim your power and thrive.
To find out more about Dr Neff’s work, head to www.self-compassion.org
Order her latest book: “Fierce Self-Compassion”
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Transcript
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A listener production.

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This is Crappita Happy and I am your host, Cas Doun.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist and mindfulness meditation teacher

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and of course, author of the Crappita Happy books. In

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this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent

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people who are experts in their field and who have

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something of value to share that will help you feel

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less crappy and more happy. Today, I am bringing you

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my second of two conversations with doctor Christin Neff. Kristin

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Neff is an Associate professor of Educational Psychology at the

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University of Texas and she is a world leading pioneer

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in the area of self compassion research. Last week, we

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chatted about all things self compassion, including her research, the

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benefits of self compassion, the scale that she developed to

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measure it, which you can find at her website, and

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how she has applied this in her own life. I

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asked doctor Nef if she would come back and have

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a second conversation with me, specifically on the topic of

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Fierce self Compassion, because that is the title of her

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most recent book, and I was really intrigued to understand

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the difference between Fierce self compassion and kind of regular

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self compassion. In this conversation, she explains to me how

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she was motivated to write this book upon learning that

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a person she had long respected and supported turned out

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to be a sexual predator. She describes how important and

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how necessary these self compassion practices can be when we

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are standing up for what's right, setting boundaries, and fighting

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for justice. Just as self compassion can be tender, it's

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not just tender. It can also be very, very fierce,

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and sometimes that's what we need. So, without further ado,

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here is my second conversation with doctor christin nef christ Nev,

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Thank you so much for making the time to come

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back for a part two on the Crapit a Happy Podcast.

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Oh sure, can't we talk more about fierce self compassion?

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It's my favorite topic these days. I bet it is.

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I bet it is.

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And I do want to say a special thank you

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because I know that it is the evening time where

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you are, and you have made a special effort to

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come on late at night when the rest of us

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are winding down for the night.

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So I'm so grateful.

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So we will not take up a lot of your

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time today, but I do really want to get onto

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this topic of fierce self compassion, which of course is

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the title of your latest book. The first thing I

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did want to say, though, just to recap quickly on

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something you mentioned last week, Kristen, because so many people

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on this topic of self compassion say to me, I

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have no problem being compassionate with other people. I really

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have a problem being compassionate towards myself.

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Correct me if I'm wrong.

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But what you said last week was when we see

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other people suffering, it doesn't trigger our own fight or

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flight response, yes, but our own suffering and struggle does.

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And this is the key difference. So this is a

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really solid explanation for why other people's compassion we can

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be friendly and compassionate and kind and loving because it

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doesn't trigger the same threat response in us.

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Yes, and us all why sometimes we aren't the most

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compassionate to those who are nearest anddurest, like our children

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and our spouses, because oftentimes, you know, it's it threatens

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us as well. When sometimes it doesn't, but sometimes it does.

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We feel threatened when they fail, you know, or something's

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happening with them, We feel threatened. And so when we

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feel threatened, we tend to react differently. We tend to

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respond with this fight or flight as opposed to the

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tendem befriend response.

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Yeah, and if anybody is listening who didn't hear our

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last conversation, I would encourage you to go back and listen.

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But I did want to reiterate that because it is

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such a common It is just I hear you probably

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all the time too, no doubt, but that's what I

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hear from people all of the time. Why can I

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be compassion to other people but not me? So I

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thought that was really just worth touching on again. But

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let's talk about fierce self compassion. So you have been

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in this self compassion space for as we discussed, a

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couple of decades now, loads of research, loads of talking

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about it, speaking about it, sharing about it. These programs

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you can do about self compassion. Where did this idea

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of fierce self compassion come from?

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For you? Well, So, in the Buddhist tradition, there is

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this thing called fierce compassion. It's that term is used

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for compassion. For instance, it raises up to protect against injustice.

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It's kind of a counter to the idea that compassion

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is always about acceptance or complacency. Actually not at all,

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because if compassion is the consumer with alliviating suffering, sometimes

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we need to be quite fierce. Maybe you can go

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to war if we have to to protect people, right,

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I mean, you know how it manifests really just depends

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on what needs to be done to alleviate suffering. And

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it struck me that people didn't realize that there's also

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fierce self compassion. Right. In other words, when people hear

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the word self compassion, they just think being gentle, giving

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yourself a break, going easy on yourself. But in fact,

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sometimes that's not kind to yourself. Sometimes maybe you need

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to make a change, Maybe you need to, you know,

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eat better, Maybe you need to exercise war, maybe you

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need to change your job, maybe you need maybe someone's

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crossing your boundaries and you need to protect yourself or

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someone's treating you unfairly. I mean, for instance, I see

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the Me Too movement or the Black Lives Matter movements

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as self compassion movements. But they're but they're fearce self compassion.

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They're drawing a long line in the sand to say no,

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you cannot do this, it's not okay. That's a way

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of caring for yourself. And so I like the term

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because it does out the fact that there are two

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sides of self compassion. And most people that think self

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compassion is going to make them weak, it's going to

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make them complacent, it's going to make them, you know,

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just sit around on their cushion all day, is not

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at all the case. So this is why I wanted

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to highlight this side of compassion.

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It's really interesting. I like that you mentioned that Buddhist

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approach as well, because I think a lot of people

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do perceive that that whole notion of acceptance and equanimity

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as being very passive, you know, kind of tolerant of everything,

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and that's not the case.

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No, it's not the case. Right. We can't accept injustice.

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We need to accept the fact that injustice is occurring. Right.

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So that's where people get confused. It's acceptance of the

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present moment. And the present moment is you're crossing my boundary.

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You know, you're threatening me, you're treating me in fairly.

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It's not acceptance of that, it's acceptance of the fact

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that it is occurring. I love that distinction and our

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response to that, our response to that is often it's

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not okay. But here's the thing when it's compassion, instead

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of saying it's not okay and you're bad compassion. The

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heart's open, so it's not okay. But we're all human beings.

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So as I stand up for myself, I'm not going

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to dehumanize you, right, I'm gonna I'm gonna see everyone

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here as human beings worthy of compassion and kindness and

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respect at the same time that I draw my line

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in the sand. And by the way, it's a little

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tricky to do, but that's that's the goal. That's the intention,

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to draw our line in the sand firmly, but with kindness.

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And that's why I talk in the in the book,

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I talk my book of fear, self compassion. I use

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the metaphor of Yin and Young, So Yin is more

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of the gentle, tender energy, and young is more of

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the feerceful, action oriented energy. And I like Yin and

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young because people understand it. It has to be in balance.

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We need both and in fact, you know, when they're

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out of balance, that's kind of a definition of ill health. Yes,

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and yet here's the kicker. We raise boys to be

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fierce and not tender. We raise girls to be tender

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and not fierce in In other words, we bake ill health

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into gender role socialization by not allowing every person to

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have both sides of themselves easily accessible and well developed.

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So a lot of the book that's why I wrote

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the book for women. I did write the book for

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a woman, not because men don't need fear of self compassion,

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but just because their block is more to the tender

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self compassion, whereas for women the block is more to

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the fear self compassion. So the way you approach it

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has to be a little different.

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The core elements of self compassion don't change the mindfulness,

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self kindness, common humanity. But what you're highlighting is a

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distinction in the intention with which we bring these qualities.

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Would that be fair to say, well, it's really how

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they express right. But for instance kindness, When kindness is

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aimed at feeling, Let's say you feel really inadequate, or

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you feel you know shame, or you feel like you

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know bad about something you've done, Kindness may be very

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gentle and soothing, loving you know it's okay, You're okay,

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just as you are really maybe all about tender acceptance,

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but you know, I if, for instance, you just did

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something really harmful to yourself or others. You know, you're okay,

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that's still there. But we don't want to tenderly accept

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the behavior if it's harmful, or we don't want to

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tenderly accept a situation if it's harmful. So we always

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need both. We tenderly accept ourselves, but we might have

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to fiercely protect against a danger or ourselves if we're

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you know, maybe we're addicted or we were you know,

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we're we're doing something that's really unhealthy. We don't want

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to accept the behavior. We want to change it, but

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we change it with encouragement as opposed to harshness and criticism. Right,

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So it's really so I've got this whole three by

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four table, and how these three components manifest you know,

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and I won't go through them all, but basically it

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can look it can be the difference between loving, connected

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presence and brave empowered clarity. Those are both manifestations of kindness,

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common humanity, and mindfulness, but they look different depending on

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what type of suffering they're trying to alleviate.

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Yeah, okay, and I think that's really important. And and

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I loved your table. By the way, I've got the book,

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and I really appreciated those.

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That's the two sign of a nerd. The nerds love

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the table. You must be a nerd at heart.

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It makes it so clear that how these different qualities

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present in a different situation. Yeah, and I go, oh,

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I get that. Yeah, I can get that. I can

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get on board with that. Thing I guess is that

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we talked last week and you mentioned about self care,

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self compassion, and self care almost being like a loving

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parent to ourselves. And no, you have to eat your

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vegetables because that's good for you, and you have to

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do your exit. You know, it's not letting yourself off

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the hook. And I love that you bring in that.

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With this fear self compassion, it's, you know, something all

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of us mothers can relate to. It's that mama bear,

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that very fiercely protective instinct. So when we're standing up

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for ourselves, it's that kind of fierceness.

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Exactly we feel naturally for our children. We just also

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have to give ourselves permission to use it with ourselves

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and alsold toward others who might be again crossing our

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boundaries or treating us and fairly. So this is the

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action oriented side of self compassion. The fear side is

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where the power comes from. This is what helps us

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to speak up right, to say something or to do

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something which we need at the same time that we

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have the tender acceptances. It's both always.

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This is obviously not a new thing, right, You've been

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in this space for a long time, And so wasn't

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you mentioned before Me Too and Black Lives Matter? Was

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it those kinds of really big social movements that really

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prompted you to write this book at this time?

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Well, certainly the Me Too movement prompted me to write

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this book right now for a woman and just in general.

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I mean there's been a big, might say, a movement

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in a contemplative practice people who do mindfulness and compassion

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to say, you know, it's not enough for personal wellbeing.

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It's not enough for us to sit on our cushion

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and be happy. There's a lot of injustice in the

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world that we need to take action, social action to

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try to alleviate suffering, and fierce compassion is one of

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the ways that's dealt with. So that was in the background,

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But for me personally, like the real spur to it

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was I had a really horrible situation that I write

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about in my book with someone who I'd trusted and

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supported and you know, really tried to help. I gave

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my credentials, I really supported the organization who turned out

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to be a sex predator, to put it bluntly, was

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kind of a harassing woman of using women. And it

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was while I was picking that apart and trying to

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like shut them down and just going through the trauma

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of it all, that I realized one of the things

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that I mean, of course, the blame was one hundred

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percent on the perpetrator, of course, But on the other hand,

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what are some of the things that allowed it to

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go on for so long with no one's saying anything.

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And you can ask the same about Harvey Weinstein or

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Andro Cuomo or any of these people. It's because gender

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role socialization comes into play. Women are taught we shouldn't

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speak up, you know, that's just the way men are

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that we should kind of swoop it under the rug.

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And also especially especially when someone like this person or

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in an autism center, or Harvey Weinstein he was a brilliant director,

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or Andrew Cuomo was a great governor. When people are

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doing good in the world, women are like, oh, well,

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if I say something, Gosh, I don't want to harm anyone.

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And you know, we're so socialized to be tender, and

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sometimes we're cut off from our own anger. And even

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after it unfolded, some of the women who were affected,

256
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like it took them a while to get angry. They

257
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had a hard time getting in touch with their anger.

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I had had no hard time. I'm very in touch

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with my young, fierceness. But a lot of people did.

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And I realized that one of the socialization practices that

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developed to keep us in our place, which is subordinate, basically,

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is by repressing her fear side, repressing her anger, for

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you know, the glass ceiling. One of the reasons the

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glass ceiling still exists is people don't like powerful, competent women.

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They actually the studies that show if you describe two

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people one name Mary, one name James, and they're both

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powerful and competent, they love James, but they don't like Mary,

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I know, you know, and that's that's a problem. And

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so this is this really I was kind of spurred

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to write this book for my sisters just to say, hey,

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we can't go along with this anymore if we want

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changes in the world. And boy, the world needs some change.

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We're gonna have to fully embrace our fierce mama bear

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side and stop apologizing for it. Yeah, and yes, there

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may be some people that like us a little bit less.

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Oh well, you know, either that or we're just going

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to keep with the status quo. The status quo isn't

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working for us anymore, clearly.

279
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Yeah, that's key, isn't There may be some people, There

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may be some people who are going to like us

281
00:15:48.120 --> 00:15:51.679
a little bit less. And you know what, that's okay

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00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:56.440
because we saw condition. Yeah, we can like ourselves. We

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have that self compassion and just recognizing that condition that

284
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we all have just ingrained in us, that being liked

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and to be nice. It's the most important thing.

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And by the way, we do need to. You know,

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we obviously want to get along with people, and we

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don't want to be mean and we don't want to

289
00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:18.399
be rude. And I probably sometimes fall off the other side.

290
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I'm like really direct, and you know, sometimes I need

291
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to soften it a little bit. It's funny because this balance.

292
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Women are socialized not to be fierce, but as individuals

293
00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:29.679
like me, I need a little help on the tender

294
00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:35.480
side sometimes, especially if I'm really passionate about something. But nonetheless, Yeah,

295
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for whatever reason, I didn't get that socialization message. Maybe

296
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because my mother, she's quite fierce. I didn't get that

297
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message that to be worthy I had to be nice

298
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and sweet and accommodating. But a lot of women have

299
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and I do think it's the reason that's been in

300
00:16:53.080 --> 00:16:56.480
play is to help keep us in our place. Yeah,

301
00:16:56.919 --> 00:17:00.000
it's kind of a political book as well as a psychology.

302
00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:02.320
It's for me, they're really mixed.

303
00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:06.240
That's my favorite kind of book. Really, I'm a here

304
00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:08.839
for it. I am here for it. But also I

305
00:17:08.920 --> 00:17:11.759
wanted to touch on the reason also I think this

306
00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:15.720
is so important is because it's not just about being liked.

307
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There is a real fear if you belong to a

308
00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:24.680
group that has been oppressed, abused, violated, it's scary to

309
00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:28.599
speak up and to set boundaries and to push back.

310
00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:32.039
And so how does that fear of self compassion help

311
00:17:32.119 --> 00:17:36.039
us to manage that very real sort of anxiety?

312
00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:39.119
Right? And by the way, it's not that we have

313
00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:41.319
none that we can ignore that. You know, if you

314
00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:44.680
don't have enough, if you don't have power, or you're marginalized,

315
00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:47.720
or you're in a tenuous position, sometimes you can't speak

316
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up the way you would like to. And one thing

317
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the research shows helps is that if you combine the

318
00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:57.880
fierceness with the tenderness, like maybe you do speak up,

319
00:17:57.960 --> 00:18:00.640
but then combine it with something like kind of more

320
00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:05.400
traditionally kind and nurturing, then it kind of helps people

321
00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:08.000
feel more comfortable. So that's one way we can do it.

322
00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:11.240
But a lot of what to anger. For instance, I

323
00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:13.920
write a lot about anger in my book. One of

324
00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:18.960
the useful functions of anger is it suppresses the fear response. Right,

325
00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:23.200
So in a way, one of the reasons sometimes we're

326
00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:26.039
too fearful to speak up is because we aren't angry. Yeah,

327
00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:28.960
and if we allow ourselves to get angry, one of

328
00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:32.400
the things it does is it does repress the fear response. No. Again,

329
00:18:32.519 --> 00:18:34.799
you know, this is all complicated, and we don't want

330
00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:36.480
to like yell at people, and we don't want to

331
00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:39.359
be mean and all those things. Yes, yes, yes, but

332
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yet the basic energies of fierceness and tenderness, we need

333
00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:46.160
to be able to welcome them and honor them and

334
00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:48.759
not be so affrightened of them, and see that it

335
00:18:48.839 --> 00:18:51.640
can be harnessed for the good and That's what I

336
00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:54.119
try to help people do in my book is how

337
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to welcome your anger, how to welcome your fierceness, and

338
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really importantly, how to harness it for good for yourself

339
00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:03.480
and others. I think that's the key is in it.

340
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I think when you can bring people around to this

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idea that there's nothing necessarily selfish about this, because I

342
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think this is the other big fear of women, particularly, Oh,

343
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I'm just being selfish and I should be thinking of

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other people. And you know that's that distinction too, between

345
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kind of being assertive and being aggressive, isn't it. It's

346
00:19:20.279 --> 00:19:22.720
not like I'm trying to overpower somebody. I'm just trying

347
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to hold my own, you know, in equal value with

348
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somebody else's position.

349
00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:32.079
Yeah. Yeah, it's not dominating people. In fact. So I

350
00:19:32.119 --> 00:19:35.200
have some research that shows self compassionate people when their

351
00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:38.920
needs conflict with those of others. They don't subordinate, but

352
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they don't like save my way or the highway either.

353
00:19:41.319 --> 00:19:44.240
They really try to compromise and make sure everyone's needs

354
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are met. Yeah, and that's really what we're aiming for,

355
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is balance.

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I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the

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benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are

358
00:19:57.880 --> 00:20:00.680
enjoying the show, please be sure to like subscribe so

359
00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:03.359
that you get notified when you apsdrop and head on

360
00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:05.839
over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and leave

361
00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:07.359
us a rating and reviewing.

362
00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:15.079
For anybody listening.

363
00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:19.279
Kind of, I guess, what are the kinds of scenarios

364
00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:25.039
or situations that really call for this more fierce approach

365
00:20:25.240 --> 00:20:27.680
to self compassion. I mean, I think you've outlined a

366
00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:29.200
lot in your book. Can you just kind of give

367
00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:30.519
us some ideas?

368
00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:35.039
Yeah, well, certainly anytime. So there's three different forms of

369
00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:39.240
fear of self compassion. One is aimed protection, so really

370
00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:42.000
being aware is anywhere if someone crossing your boundaries in

371
00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:44.519
an inappropriate way. You know, that could be like a

372
00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:49.279
sexual innuendo or worse right, or can maybe you have

373
00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:52.880
relatives who's pushing their political views on you, you know, being

374
00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:54.720
able to say, hey, I'm sorry, I don't want to

375
00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:56.720
hear it. You know, I don't want to hear it,

376
00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:58.440
Thank you very much, I don't want to hear it, right,

377
00:20:58.440 --> 00:21:01.960
but firmly like buying the line in the sand, So

378
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:05.079
that might be one place that comes in. I'm also

379
00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:10.279
providing for yourself, especially for women. We all we're taught

380
00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:12.920
to say yes. People don't like us when we say no.

381
00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:17.359
People value us for being self sacrificing. So being able

382
00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:20.480
to say, you know, I'd love to help, but I can't.

383
00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:23.119
I'm sorry, I got you know, I have another commitment, right,

384
00:21:23.160 --> 00:21:26.559
you know, I just don't have time, really not feeling

385
00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:30.200
guilty about it. Again. Yes, we do what we can,

386
00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:33.880
so we don't care about other people's needs, but really

387
00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:36.720
feeling that we need to honor our own needs. We

388
00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:39.079
need to give it time and energy. Otherwise we're going

389
00:21:39.160 --> 00:21:41.920
to be drained and depleted and not be helpful to anyone.

390
00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:45.480
So providing for own needs, say no when we have to.

391
00:21:46.119 --> 00:21:49.440
And then the third one is really motivating change. So

392
00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:51.440
when we when we want to make a change, we

393
00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:54.920
need sometimes we need that fierce mama bear energy to say, hey,

394
00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:58.799
you got to stop this. This isn't good for you.

395
00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:01.119
You know, maybe I don't know. You're a sugar addict

396
00:22:01.279 --> 00:22:03.079
or something like that, and you eat so much sugar

397
00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:07.079
and it's giving you diabetes, are harming in your health. Yes,

398
00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:09.480
we accept ourselves. It doesn't mean that you are any

399
00:22:09.559 --> 00:22:13.440
less valuable or lovable or you know, perfect in terms

400
00:22:13.480 --> 00:22:17.240
of your quality worth as a person. But the behavior

401
00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:20.160
is harmful and sometimes you need to kind of stand

402
00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:22.400
up and say, hey, this has got to stop, this

403
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:26.160
is harming me, right, and use that fierce energy to

404
00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:29.880
motivate a change, just like a mother would again, hopeful,

405
00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:33.759
hopefully a mother would. We know that authoritative parenting is

406
00:22:34.039 --> 00:22:38.200
most effective, not authoritarian, which is like domineering, but not

407
00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:44.079
like indulgent either. We're just like, oh yeah, whatever, authoritative, loving, warm, kind,

408
00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:47.720
but firm, clear boundaries and the same with ourselves.

409
00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:51.039
Yeah, I think everybody can kind of relate to that.

410
00:22:51.079 --> 00:22:55.359
It's what we all, I hope, aspire to as parents.

411
00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:58.759
So it really is just turning that back and using

412
00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:02.079
those same principles with how we relate to ourselves and

413
00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:02.720
other people.

414
00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:05.799
Yes, exactly so. And the parenting metaphor is such a

415
00:23:05.799 --> 00:23:09.039
good one, you know, gentle mother and fierce mama bear.

416
00:23:09.160 --> 00:23:11.640
But if you want to use authoritative parenting, you can

417
00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:15.599
also use that one. But self compassion really is with

418
00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:20.640
almost reparenting ourselves, especially maybe if our parents didn't treat

419
00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:23.720
us the way we would have ideally liked. What it

420
00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:26.039
means is we can turn to ourselves to get a

421
00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:28.680
lot of our needs met. Not all of them, of course,

422
00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:31.240
we need other people, but it helps us not be

423
00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:35.519
so dependent on other people's approval or the people meeting

424
00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:37.559
our needs exactly as we want them met. You know,

425
00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:40.640
it really gives us resources to meet a lot of

426
00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:43.759
our own needs, just like an ideal parent would meet

427
00:23:43.799 --> 00:23:44.880
the needs of their child.

428
00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:49.079
Yeah, it feels like this whole self compassion thing. It's

429
00:23:49.160 --> 00:23:52.559
really it's like the antidote too almost everything, you know,

430
00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:54.200
setting boundaries and feeling guilty.

431
00:23:54.359 --> 00:24:00.319
That's okay, sauce isn't even better? It is like, why

432
00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:02.319
do you think I've devoted my life to it? So,

433
00:24:02.519 --> 00:24:06.160
I mean, what amazes me is that people don't do

434
00:24:06.240 --> 00:24:09.640
it more often because it doesn't make everything better. It

435
00:24:09.799 --> 00:24:13.319
helps so much, you know, and it's really not that

436
00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:19.000
difficult or complicated. It's about giving ourselves permission. And like

437
00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:21.359
I say, it's not difficult or complicated, but like I said,

438
00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:24.680
it does go against some biological tendencies. So you know,

439
00:24:24.920 --> 00:24:26.920
our tendency is to freak out and go in the

440
00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:29.519
fight or flight, so we have to deal with that.

441
00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:34.119
But once we realize that it's actually not that difficult

442
00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:37.279
to be kind and supportive to yourself feels pretty good

443
00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:38.119
as a matter of fact.

444
00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:42.799
Yeah, and like you said, I think last week, like really,

445
00:24:43.480 --> 00:24:45.599
just in that moment of being a it can be

446
00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:49.279
as simple as not easy, but as simple as just

447
00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:53.440
catching yourself in that moment and realizing what you're doing

448
00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:58.559
to yourself and just yes, pausing and choosing something different.

449
00:24:58.599 --> 00:25:02.240
Choosing some more supportive. Yeah.

450
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:05.759
When people do really struggle with this, and you know,

451
00:25:05.799 --> 00:25:09.759
for different reasons, people trauma, backgrounds, you know, all sorts

452
00:25:09.799 --> 00:25:12.200
of things that have gone on in people's lives, and

453
00:25:12.200 --> 00:25:15.680
they find this especially difficult and uncomfortable. Our default is

454
00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:18.720
always to go to self criticism. Is it possible to

455
00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:22.880
shift our default so that we become it becomes much

456
00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:29.000
more natural and easy to go to self compassion as

457
00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:30.319
almost a first stop.

458
00:25:30.680 --> 00:25:35.240
Absolutely, it develops with practice, right, just like any habit,

459
00:25:35.319 --> 00:25:37.920
it develops with practice. So yeah, the research shows that

460
00:25:38.359 --> 00:25:42.440
if you practice self compassion, which may look different for

461
00:25:42.519 --> 00:25:45.240
different people. Some people it's just every time they feel

462
00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:47.920
badly about themselves, I remember to say what they would

463
00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:50.759
say to a good friend instead of criticizing themselves. Other

464
00:25:50.799 --> 00:25:55.359
people do meditation, other people do like journaling, exercises. Really,

465
00:25:55.400 --> 00:25:58.480
it doesn't matter how you practice, our research shows, but

466
00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:02.079
it does matter that you and the more you practice,

467
00:26:02.119 --> 00:26:04.319
the more habitual it comes. I mean, we know the

468
00:26:04.359 --> 00:26:07.680
brain is plastic, right, we can't actually lay down new

469
00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:11.119
neural pathways, that's the good news. So it can become

470
00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:12.960
a habit that persists over time.

471
00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:16.960
I think that's a really important and encouraging point to make,

472
00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:19.319
because another thing that I have heard it for, you know,

473
00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:22.039
as a psychologist for years is when people get really

474
00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:26.920
identified with their habits that I'm just a warrior, now,

475
00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:29.759
I'm just a this, or I you know, it's like

476
00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:32.240
this is who I am and there's no changing that.

477
00:26:32.279 --> 00:26:34.599
And I think it gives people so much hope and

478
00:26:34.680 --> 00:26:38.200
encouragement to be able to say, well, no, just because

479
00:26:38.200 --> 00:26:40.839
you've had this habit for all of this time doesn't

480
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:43.400
mean that you can't change that. Just like any other habit,

481
00:26:43.799 --> 00:26:46.079
you just need to practice just like you said.

482
00:26:46.359 --> 00:26:49.519
That's right, and so it does become easier. But also

483
00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:54.279
the nice thing about self compassion is that if your instinct,

484
00:26:54.839 --> 00:26:57.440
let's say, you do see something mean to yourself, right,

485
00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:00.839
and so that just comes up again and that old habit,

486
00:27:01.279 --> 00:27:04.880
then you can give compassion to that ouch that hurt.

487
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:08.119
You know, Hey, I'm sorry, you know what I mean.

488
00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:12.640
So compassion can hold anything, So you can you know,

489
00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:14.759
you can have compassion for the fact that you have

490
00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:18.279
this belief that you can't change, right, So you can

491
00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:23.640
have compassion for anything, any painful experience that arises, including

492
00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:26.960
the pain of feeling like you're stuck and can't change.

493
00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:29.799
And then once you do that, it kind of starts

494
00:27:29.799 --> 00:27:32.400
to loosen up that grip and that stuckness and you

495
00:27:32.440 --> 00:27:37.759
give compassion to the stuckkness. It really is amazingly powerful.

496
00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:41.319
It's just a mind shift toward whatever we're thinking in

497
00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:43.920
the moment, and it changes things.

498
00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:48.480
Say Christa, we've talked a lot about fears self compassion

499
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:51.640
and the way that we can use it to speak

500
00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:55.680
up against injustice in whatever context we might find ourselves in.

501
00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:58.480
You've mentioned sexual harassment, it could be workplace issues. You know,

502
00:27:58.519 --> 00:28:00.319
I've have a lot of women in my audience deal

503
00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:06.319
with bias in their workplace. What happens when you've done

504
00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:08.240
what you can, You've you've employed all of the fear

505
00:28:08.279 --> 00:28:10.759
self compassion, you've set the boundaries, you've spoken up, but

506
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:16.000
in the environment around you, nothing changes, and this happens

507
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:19.240
a lot, you know, like you can't change the environment

508
00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:21.920
or the institution or the society that you live in.

509
00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:23.279
So what do we do then?

510
00:28:24.599 --> 00:28:27.759
Yeah, well, so first of all, you know, it's important

511
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:32.440
to point out that fear. Self compassion is an ingredient

512
00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:35.440
that people in a system have it, especially those who

513
00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:39.160
are being oppressed. But we need to change the systems, right.

514
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:41.920
It can't just be that we change ourselves personally and

515
00:28:41.960 --> 00:28:45.680
that's enough. We actually need to try to change systems

516
00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:49.839
at the system level. Now that's very complicated and it's

517
00:28:49.880 --> 00:28:52.599
not something that you know, I have any expertise on

518
00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:56.720
how to do, but it's very clear that it has

519
00:28:56.759 --> 00:28:59.240
to be more than just changed at the individual level.

520
00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:02.640
It has to be change at the system level. Now, again,

521
00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:05.480
I do think that especially some of the anger that's

522
00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:09.400
aimed at social injustice can like get you to organize,

523
00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:12.440
get you to you know, vote, get you to try

524
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:15.559
to influence the system. But it's really important that we

525
00:29:15.640 --> 00:29:18.480
try to change the system and the individual and ourselves

526
00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:22.720
as individuals at the same time. But here's the nice

527
00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:26.960
thing about self compassion is that there are limits we

528
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:30.160
can't you know, we may be motivated to make change,

529
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:34.640
but at the end of the day, change isn't almost possible.

530
00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:37.680
There may there may be sometimes there at least what

531
00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:42.039
seems like insurmountable barriers. And that's where we have the

532
00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:45.119
tender self compassion to fall back on. In other words,

533
00:29:45.160 --> 00:29:48.039
we do the best we can. We try our hardest,

534
00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:50.359
you know, we do what we can. We vote, we

535
00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:55.000
organize whatever, we try to speak up for ourselves. But

536
00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:58.000
at the end of the day, we have this tender

537
00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:02.799
self compassion of acceptance to help hold the pain of

538
00:30:02.839 --> 00:30:07.519
the fat that sometimes things are not good, you know.

539
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:12.119
Sometimes you know not sometimes injustice does still occur. Yeah,

540
00:30:12.759 --> 00:30:14.519
and we need both and others. We need to do

541
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:17.839
everything we can to fight against injustice at the same

542
00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:20.119
time that we need to accept that this is the

543
00:30:20.119 --> 00:30:23.160
way things are in the present moment and give ourselves

544
00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:25.960
kindness and support and healing for the pain of that.

545
00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:29.759
Because life is imperfect. It's not it's not like you

546
00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:33.960
sprinkle self compassion on things and wow, everything becomes perfect,

547
00:30:34.200 --> 00:30:36.359
you know what. It doesn't quite work that way. It

548
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:40.200
becomes more manageable, but it doesn't become perfect. The pain

549
00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:45.680
and the imperfection and the and the suffering is still there, unfortunately,

550
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:48.519
but that's the way, that's the way life seems to work.

551
00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:53.359
So it is very much like you say, this integrated approach.

552
00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:56.720
It's it's it's being able to call on both the

553
00:30:57.000 --> 00:31:01.039
yin and the yang, Yes as as necessary, acceptance.

554
00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:05.559
And change, yes as needed, you know, depending on whatever

555
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:09.720
whatever form of suffering you're holding in the moment. And

556
00:31:09.960 --> 00:31:12.480
you don't want to get too attached to outcome either.

557
00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:16.359
So with all of these things from from this perspective, right,

558
00:31:16.680 --> 00:31:19.640
we do what we can, but then we have to

559
00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:22.920
accept that we don't. We aren't in control. And we

560
00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:24.839
know that for a fact that we aren't in control,

561
00:31:24.880 --> 00:31:27.279
and the belief that we are in control causes a

562
00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:30.000
lot of suffering. So we do what we can, and

563
00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:33.160
we can certainly do more with that fierce Mama Bear energy,

564
00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:36.359
but ultimately we aren't in control, and that's where we

565
00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:40.759
need the acceptance, acceptance, and change. It's really this paradox

566
00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:44.839
is at the heart of really most philosophical systems. I

567
00:31:44.920 --> 00:31:45.319
love it.

568
00:31:45.720 --> 00:31:50.240
I think it's life changing. It's potentially literally life changing

569
00:31:50.279 --> 00:31:53.279
for people. Considering what people are, the struggles that people

570
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:55.960
are experiencing. This can just make such a world of

571
00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:57.720
difference to people's experience.

572
00:31:57.920 --> 00:31:59.960
You know, I thought I found it life changing first,

573
00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:03.759
and a lot of people do, and so it's certainly

574
00:32:03.799 --> 00:32:08.119
worth trying. Yeah, for people who are a little skeptical,

575
00:32:08.759 --> 00:32:10.319
give it a try, see what happens.

576
00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:15.640
I'm so grateful to you, Kristen, and thank you for

577
00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:19.319
writing the second book, Fear Self Compassion. I'm still halfway

578
00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:22.960
through it. I've already got my sticky notes and bookmarks

579
00:32:23.559 --> 00:32:28.359
all through it, my table, my four x three table bookmarked.

580
00:32:28.359 --> 00:32:30.400
Yes you like yes.

581
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:36.559
And in terms of how other people can listening can

582
00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:40.319
find out more about you your work about self compassion,

583
00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:42.920
how they can start to learn it, cultivate it, apply it.

584
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:44.240
Where can they go?

585
00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:46.599
Right? So, the best place to start is if you

586
00:32:46.680 --> 00:32:50.680
google self compassion, you'll find my website self compassion dot org.

587
00:32:51.119 --> 00:32:53.759
I mean, I have a page on there specifically for

588
00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:57.240
Fear of self compassion. And I have lots of practices,

589
00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:00.200
so it's not just an idea. There are practices as

590
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:04.519
exercises you can do to build these fierce self compassion muscles.

591
00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:07.880
And I also have a lot of other practices as well,

592
00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:11.000
So that's really the best place to start. And then

593
00:33:11.079 --> 00:33:13.640
also you'll see a link to the Center for Mindful

594
00:33:13.720 --> 00:33:17.519
Self Compassion on my page. That's really the training arm

595
00:33:17.720 --> 00:33:20.240
of what I do, and you can sign up for training,

596
00:33:20.319 --> 00:33:23.319
you can sign up for workshops. There's a lot online

597
00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:26.920
these days, so you actually can practice it through the

598
00:33:26.920 --> 00:33:30.599
guidance of skilled teachers. And I teach some workshops that

599
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:31.519
are myself as well.

600
00:33:31.640 --> 00:33:35.960
So yay, and so for somebody like me Kristen so

601
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:39.440
as a psychologist, I have psychologists also listening to the podcast,

602
00:33:39.519 --> 00:33:42.880
and also just clearly the general public for somebody like

603
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:46.039
me who wants to use more self compassion in my

604
00:33:46.640 --> 00:33:50.720
practice with clients. Do you have training for therapists and coaches?

605
00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:54.720
We do. We have a self compassion and Psychotherapy training

606
00:33:54.759 --> 00:33:59.000
program that's specifically designed for therapists who want to bring

607
00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:01.640
self compassion into the work, you know, regardless of what

608
00:34:01.759 --> 00:34:05.599
therapy modality they use. We also have a book called

609
00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:09.880
Teaching the Mindful of Self Compassion Program that has chapters

610
00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:13.440
on there for therapists people who want to know the

611
00:34:13.480 --> 00:34:16.599
pedagogy of how to teach self compassion to others. Amazing,

612
00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:18.360
So you can also find a link to that on

613
00:34:18.400 --> 00:34:19.039
my website.

614
00:34:19.079 --> 00:34:20.440
Thank you so much, and.

615
00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:22.920
So we've got all the beasts cover do you do?

616
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:26.599
I'm there. Thank you so much for your time again,

617
00:34:26.760 --> 00:34:29.559
and thank you for the work that you do. I'm

618
00:34:29.559 --> 00:34:31.440
a fan and I appreciate you so much.

619
00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:34.280
Oh thanks Cas, it's really been lovely. Thanks for having

620
00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:34.960
me on again.

621
00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:42.320
Kristen's book Fierce Self Compassion is now available in all bookstores,

622
00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:44.840
as well as her original book, just called Self Compassion.

623
00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:47.039
You can find out all about her work at her

624
00:34:47.039 --> 00:34:52.559
website www dot self dashcompassion dot org. For more information

625
00:34:52.599 --> 00:34:55.880
about me, my website is castdone dot com. Connect with

626
00:34:55.960 --> 00:34:59.920
me on Instagram, cast Done underscore XO or Facebook CA

627
00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:03.920
dot xo. And as always, if you enjoy this show,

628
00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:05.800
please do share it with your friends, take a moment

629
00:35:05.800 --> 00:35:07.840
to give us a five star rating or a review

630
00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:10.280
so that it can be heard by more listeners, because

631
00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:13.119
I think we can all agree that right now what

632
00:35:13.159 --> 00:35:16.840
the world needs is a little less crappy and more happy.

633
00:35:17.239 --> 00:35:19.159
Thank you so much for listening, and I will catch

634
00:35:19.239 --> 00:35:28.400
you on the next episode of Crappy to Happy.

635
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:29.480
Listener