Hard Truths about Self-Loss with Sara Kuburic

0:04 This is Crappita Happy and I am your host, Cass Dunn. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist. I'm mindfulness meditation teacher and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their field and who have something of value to share that will help you feel less crappy and more happy. Sarah Kubrick is an existential psychotherapist, consultant, writer, and a columnist for USA Today. Most recently, she is the author of a fabulous book called It's on Me Embrace hard truths, discover yourself, and change your life. You may know Sarah as the Millennial Therapist, which is the title of her very popular Instagram account, where she shares tips and content to normalize human experiences and encourage self reflection.

1:05 That account has one point six million followers and counting, so obviously resonating with people around the world. Sarah was born in Yugoslavia and had survived two wars by the time she was nine years old, eventually fleeing to Canada, where she was raised. She is passionate about helping people seek change and live authentic, free, and meaningful lives. If you have ever felt lonely, unfulfilled, trapped in roles, in relationships, in cycles of self sabotage and wrong decisions, according to Sarah, it doesn't have to be so difficult. Sarah shares tools to help us to stop sleepwalking our way through the life that we don't want and step into our most vibrant, authentic, and meaningful self. Sarah, Welcome to the Crapit a Happy Podcast.

1:58 Such a pleasure to meet you. Thank you so much for having me. I am very, very excited to be here. I have been a fan of your Instagram page, like millions of other people for quite a while, and I'm even more of a fan now that I have had the opportunity to read your book, which is called It's On Me, and I am so thrilled to discuss with you all things. Self loss such a huge, relevant topic and you have covered it so well in your book. So let's just start with when you talk about self loss, what does that mean? How does it happen? Yeah, I thought it would be fun to throw in another phrase. We have self love, self realization, self actualization, and I was like, why not throwing a word that I think would describe pretty accurately what a lot of us feel but don't know how to articulate. And for me, self loss is self estrangement or lack of alignment and congruency within yourself. And I think that sounds very kind of heady and theoretic, but all I'm trying to say, it's that moment of like waking up one day and going, I don't actually know who I am, and I don't really know how I got here. I'm not really sure that the life I woke up to is the life that is my own and the life that I want, And I actually don't even know who the person that I call myself is. So it's that intense feeling of disorientation and emptiness and perhaps even a bit of brokenness.

3:27 Yeah, and in your experience, because I know you work a lot. You know, you're a therapist and you work a lot with people around this topic. Is it normally a moment or is it I don't know. Is it more just like a gradual kind of feeling or a sense of dissatisfaction, or you know, just feeling a little bit like I'm not on the right path as opposed to like a big like, oh my god, who am I? What am I doing here? For sure? And I think for a lot of people it's just it's almost like a little haze or a little discomfort. And I think that when you face that haze and discomfort and you see it for what it is, that moment can feel big and can feel almost traumatizing, even if it's not. You know, a moment like I had where I was like in a bathroom crying, looking at myself in a mirror and being like, I hate her, and I worst of all, I don't even recognize the person that I'm staring at, and she seems hollow and empty, And is this is this shell who people have been interacting with? Is this shell the person that dictated my life?

4:36 Like I had that big moment, And as you said, I don't think you have to have this big moment, But I do think that the moment you recognize your loss is not an easy one. I think a lot of us live with it more passively, like a hum or, like a low grade headache that's just kind of there the whole time. I think that moment of realization can be quite a difficult one to accept and I think it's why my subtitles like accept Hard Truths is the first thing. I think. It's a really difficult thing to go. Oh, I contributed to being in this moment and being this unhappy or being this disconnected from myself. Yeah, it is hard. I mean, especially when you've constructed this whole life and relationship and you know, job, and then you're questioning everything. And I think many people probably and I'm sure you've had this experience too, like wait, you will know that. You know, many people would spend years like struggling to actually acknowledge the truth of that, because that uncovers like layers of hard things to deal with.

5:38 Yeah, I think a part of it, you know, I talk about the deconstruction and reconstruction. That's kind of how I think about the self or this journey and like unraveling and becoming. And I think that unraveling that deconstruction is so scary because a lot of us feel if you don't possess yourself, if you don't have yourself, It's like, what is the foundation that's going to keep me safe? It's like, you know, it's like, Okay, I'm going on this boat trip and I don't have. A life jacket or I don't have a boat. So it's like, if I think I'm going diving, I don't know how what's going to keep me from drowning? You know. And it's an interesting kind of concept of you have realized that you don't have a foundation of self, but you're asked to lean into that loss and really even to construct it more and realize just how lost you are before you can construct. And I understand why, you know, the book would be a difficult read for some people because I'm saying like, oh, you don't know who you are. Okay, now let's figure out all the ways you're not yourself before the book goes Okay, now let's construct yourself. But it is it's really really difficult work.

6:44 No, I think that the way you've led that out in the book is really good. And you know, my podcast is called crap It a Heavy because that's what we're about. Well, like, let's just have a look, let's be real about all the uncomfortable stuff first, and then we can get onto like, well then what can we do about that? But it has to start with acknowledging some of those hard truths. Yeah, otherwise you don't know where to go. No. You talk about authenticity and being authentic, and that's an interesting concept too, but you do make the distinction between what is being an authentic and what is like a genuine loss of self. Can you share a bit about that? So I use kind of a metaphor for that of let's say that I really like water metaphors apparently, but let's say that you are diving and you are underwater and you're like, Okay, I'm swimming a bit deep, and that's like saying no when you want to say yes, or saying yes when you want to say no. But the thing is, you know where the surface is. You're like, when I can't breathe anymore, I will go to the surface.

7:43 And take a deep breath, and I know that I will survive. And it's kind of like a cheeky way to do what doesn't feel authentic, but at the same time, it doesn't feel threatening right now. If you do that for long enough, you might get disoriented. But what I talk about self loss is more like being in a riptide or being caught underwater where it's so life threatening and you're kind of being tumbled and you know that you need to start swimming to survive, but you don't actually know where the surface is, and so you're like, I'm going to pick a direction and hopefully it's the right direction, or else I'm actually swimming closer to my death. And I do think that that's a bit of self loss, of like, if you don't pick the right way to live your life, you're inching closer to an existential death, to a further loss that makes it a lot more difficult to become who you want to be. And so that's the distinction, is like the amount of disorientation, the amount of disconnect, and the chronic nature of how you live your life.

8:50 Yeah, important to make that distinction. And you also talk about the idea that for some people they maybe and I know you took about your own personal experience. You share really openly some of the experiences in your own life, but sometimes it might be a trauma, some big event that causes us to kind of disconnect from our sense of self and then for other people it was never there to begin with. I would love for you to share, like some of the kind of circumstances that can lead to this loss of self or never having the opportunity to really cultivate a genuine sense of self in the first place. Yeah, so I think, you know, a trauma is, you know, a good place to start, although I don't want people to feel like they have to have something traumatic happen in.

9:35 Order to occur. But I think trauma is so disorienting and often our priority shift to self preservation. That's something I talk about my own experience. And the last thing you're doing is like nurturing self awareness and self expression and self you know, because you're just trying to make it and I so get it. But what that does do is you o preate often from a fear based mindset. You're trying to make sure that you're okay even when the danger is no longer there, and so you're not oftentimes allowing yourself to feel all the things or do anything that you feel like would compromise your safety, which oftentimes is really pay attention to the internal stuff because you're like, I don't have time for that. I need to be so vigilant about the external and other instances of self loss.

10:26 It's just like transitions. So becoming a mother, I think a really big one where your roles have completely shifted. Your focus is now on making sure this little human is alive, and that should be your focus, because it cannot be alive without you. But I think when it becomes the sole focus, people can get lost in that transition. And then I'll give an example of people who never developed their sense of self. Like, let's say you grew up in a really structured family system that had a lot of traditions and rules and regulation, and you didn't have not just the space to explore an experiment, but maybe even question if something aligned with you. So maybe if you question, you'd be like, actually, all of this aligns with me, and then you would feel this ownership of these traditions and rules and regulations. But when you don't even have the freedom to do that, I think sometimes it can get tricky because they don't feel like your own You just feel like you're performing or observing your life, and so that in some instances not always can lead to the sense of like I don't know who I am, Especially if you leave that structure and then you have no structure all of a sudden, that's a really really scary space to be. I've worked with clients who you know, had a very structured upbringing and then kind of broke out of it, and we're like, I have no structure at all now, and I don't know how to construct my own structure, and it's very it's very difficult work as well.

11:56 Yeah, that is challenging work. I actually had somebody on the podcast you had a similar experience to that. She grew up in a cult basically, and then at about nineteen or twenty, you know, she chose to leave, and she really left her entire community, like everything that she had to tear down everything and start from ground zero, rebuilding who she was and creating some sense of meaning. So obviously don't think most people have that kind of experience, but there are lots of other loads and loads of other examples of ways that we just gradually can lose connection with ourself. I was thinking also, you know, about relationships, especially when we're very young, and mind you, you don't have to be young, but I think, especially when we're young and we're really keen to fit in and be the person that other people expect us to be, how other people's expectations can lead to us just kind of denying and fitting in. And you know, even in those subtle ways, just gradually disconnecting from who we are and what we truly feel and know and want.

13:01 For sure, I like the word gradual, like it's it almost feels passively losing yourself, but it's not passive because you have made those decisions. But that's kind of what it feels like. And I do think it happens in relationships all the time. I highlight that in my book. I think it's one of the biggest causes of self loss, and that's because people lose themselves in relationships. And I think it's great to learn how to compromise, but not compromise yourself. Compromise on Chinese or break food for dinner, but don't compromise on core things like values or boundaries. I think there is a very important distinction. But I think we've also had this like social narrative of like compromise is the only way to make your relationship happy.

13:43 And I'm actually a little hesitant to say things like that because it's like when you have both people constantly compromising, both people are not getting what they want. Yeah, I'm not really sure how that's the solution. I think maybe like compatibility, being more careful with your compatibility might be a better solace than constantly compromising with both people who feel like they're getting lukewarm meals every meal. Instead of like something they actually want to eat. And at the same time, I think we haven't made the distinction between compromising on preferences versus things that construct our sense of self. And it's so easy when you're infatuated, when you're in love or feel like you're in love, whatever your age is, to be like, I want to be the person I want to be the love of their life. I want to be exactly who they need me to be. And I think there's something really beautiful about it. But I think when we start to tweak and edit ourselves, we sometimes.

14:39 Don't know when to stop. And then have this persona because let's say that you have pretended to like camping when you first met this person. Now you're camping every weekend, and you're like, okay, you know, and you're not. Going to the art museums. You're not going to the things that feed your soul and your creativity and the things that you would rather be doing. But at some point, I also understand it's hard to break out of that because what the person signed up for was a partner who wanted camping, you know, and now when you're like, I actually don't like it might be true, but that probably should have been a conversation to have at the start, So you know, it is. It is difficult, but I think understanding that we will feel the most loved when we feel the most seen, and we will feel the most scene when we show ourselves for who we truly are. And so the love that we receive when we're not being our true selves is never that satisfying, never feels that secure, because they're not actually loving us for who we are, they're loving us for what we were projecting.

15:40 I was just thinking while you were talking too, like if all you've ever been doing is camping, because that's what you pretended to like, because you wanted somebody else to think that you liked camping, Like, how do you even get a chance to know what you really like? You know? Because then that becomes the problem, Right, You're so busy being all of these things to other people that when do you actually have the space? And I hear that all the time from people that I would with you know that I don't even know what I would do with my free time, Like I don't even like that's hot hot work? Isn't it to stop from scratch? It's so hard to start from scratch. And I think part of it is, like I have the Julia Roberts example in the book of like Runaway Bride, and I don't know if the listeners why just run Away Bride?

16:21 But I'll give a really short recap. It's Maggie, who's played by Julia Roberts, is known to leave all the grooms at the altar, and a journalist decides to investigate and write a story on it. So he goes to a small town and interviews all her partners and her as well, And one of the questions. He asks is what eggs does Maggie like? And one guy's like scrambled, the other guys like poached, the other guys like sunnyside up. And then he's like, Okay, what eggs do you like? Scrambled, poach, sunny side up? Great, And he's having this like heated debate with her in the movie later on, and he goes, you're so lost, you don't even know what kind of eggs you like, and she's like, that's called changing my mind, and he goes, no, that's called not having a mind of your own. And it's like such a simple but profound scene. And then you know later on in the movie you see her going home making a bunch of eggs, laying them out on the table and trying them. And I think that's what life is. I think we think we're just gonna know who we are. We're going to know what our preferences are. We can sit in a cave and then be like wow, I have figured it out and then come out in society. And the thing I tried to really sort of present in the book is that your actions are the core part of who you are, and a lot of figuring out your sense of self and creating your sense of self is trial and error. So it's trying those eggs and you're just going to have

17:53 to try things to see if they align with you or not. You're not going to always be able to know that before you actually do it. And I think that people uncomfortable, but that's also because we have this perception that the self is something we find, so it's already fully developed. You find it. It's like going into a closet pulling out a sweater being like, who found it? Now I get to die in this outfit? Amazing, And I think something my book really resists is that concept. And it's more that you create your sense of self. It is not something you just discover. It is an active participation with life and that seeking for authenticity and alignment that creates who you ultimately become. And so I think it's like try the eggs is always kind of.

18:37 I love that. Yeah, I loved that example in the book, and I love that you shared it because it's it is, it's so simple and it just sums it up perfectly. Sarah. You also, you know, like you said, the book is called It's on Me, like it is all about taking responsibility, and you mentioned that there are three I guess positions you can take when it comes to this idea of self loss. You can be the victim or the agent or a mix of both. Can you talk about that a little bit for listeners about like this idea of taking responsibility? And I'm gonna like admit that I love that you listed out the three roles. No one's ever, no one has done that yet on a podcast, and I think it was one of my favorite things because I think this really lays it out. So, you know, I talk about you can be a victim, but ultimately, I don't think you can just be a victim. I think there's always a layer of participation that led to self loss or perpetuated self law. Yeah, and I think that's one of the hardest parts. I think. I talk about how, you know, my early childhood experiences, living you know, through wars was very difficult, and I was a victim in that situation. But what ended up being almost more painful war in my early twenties, when I was the participant in my own sort of oppression or my own sort of loss. And I think it was the fact that I was hurting myself that was so hard to come to terms with, and that my own decisions were leading to a life I didn't want. And I use an example of responsibility of being a hot topic, you know,

20:09 I talk about Sartra and all these philosophers, and then I talk about Chad. Chad is an example I use. He's a guy we all know who you know, in high school, his parents got divorced or his first love cheated on him, right, and that sucked for Chad. We're not that is like, honestly, that can be really traumatizing, that can be really difficult, That can be very informative. But now Chad is in his late. Twenties, mid thirties, and he's mistreating absolutely everyone he's in a relationship with. And although we. Can use his formative experiences as information as being like, here's an explanation, it's not a justification. And one of the questions I ask is like, when does Chad start being responsible for the way he's treating all his partners?

20:57 And a lot of people be like, yeah, Chad needs to get better so that Casey who's dating him, will have a better partner, and I go, no, the fact that Casey's dating Chad is actually on her. Chad needs to figure it out for Chad, Like, I want Chad to have a fulfilling, meaningful intimate life. I want him to have. I am sure Chad wants healthy relationships. But the thing is, it's not. About placing responsibility as like placing blame. It's placing power on someone. It's going you're empowered to change your life. And I want Chad to have the life that he wants, And so yeah, it's about time the Chad starts taking responsibility for how he shows up in his life. And I think that that's an interesting sort of example in terms of when do you start taking responsibility and how much can you allow your past to dictate your current decisions, you know, And that depends on the trauma, on the event.

21:53 And I understand it's not saying it doesn't matter. Of course it matters. And it's so unfair to feel like life has so deeply mistreated you and made such a mess, but now you have to clean it up. Like I understand how freaking unfair that is. At the same time, you can go, this is what happened. And the real big existential question that I like to offer at people don't like to hear, is now what And that's totally up to you. That's the title. It's on you. It is. It is so empowering, and it's uncomfortable for people who kind of have constructed a whole kind of narrative around that or what happened to me and why these things keep happening to me? You know, like that can feel safe. It's not fun to own up to our responsibility, but ultimately so empowering.

22:46 So empowering, and I think when you think about the fact that you are today and if you don't like who you are today or how your life is, you are in this pace right now because of the decisions you've made. That means you have the seen power to be somewhere else in a month from now, a year from now, ten years from it. You're using the same skill set, You're just maybe going to be a little more intentional about how you're using it. But it just shows how much wonderful power you have. And I think that there's something really really liberating about it. So when it comes to you know, when we've reached this point where we recognize that there has been some self loss and we recognize that it's on us to you know, recreate or rediscover I know we don't discover recreate our sense of self. Then there are layers, right, So how do we I know this is a huge question, but how do we begin? Where do we begin with starting to create a sense of self and express our sense of self? I guess in a world where this is becoming a multilayered question now, like in a world where often we are rewarded for denying ourselves, you know, we're going to push back from other people.

23:57 Yes, of course we do. No, this is that's a great question, and I think, oh, so many answers. That's our big question. Yeah, No, that's good. I think we need until we reprioritize what's more important to us belonging to others or belonging to self. Oh, we're really going to struggle. And I think belonging is a human need. I'm not saying don't kill the need to belong that's irrational and not helpful. Because we're social beings, there has to be at least an equal desire to belong to yourself as much as you want to belong to and with others. And I think that's kind of the starting point. The question I really like to get people to journal if they're just starting, is what did I learn about myself today?

24:49 Oh? Like, okay, you went through that all day? Cool? Cool? Cool. What that does is like you need to start paying attention to what you're doing, because a lot of people like I don't know nothing because they just didn't pay attention. But it's like, what beliefs got reinforce? What things did I kind of know about myself and today really prove that that was true? This is good or bad things whatever, like or we don't want to use those words, but like shortcomings or strengths if we want to use them, but it's just like what did you learn about yourself? And the other tip that I give is like, imagine going on a first date. What you're doing is you're watching a person like hawk, You're like, are there feed pointing at me or not? Do they smell good? Are they chewing with their mouth clothes? Are we making contact?

25:35 Okay? They're making jokes? Or they asking questions? Like? And then we go home and then we like sit and then we talk to our friends and we recall every detail and what do you think that meant? And the amount of freaking energy that you poor into a first interaction or a first date is a lot. Imagine spending a smidgeon that on yourself. Like imagine if you're like, what is my body language doing? You're not asking what their feet are doing? You're like, how's my body language? What is my body? What is the sensation? Why do I tend to get headaches when you know I hang out with this person or this project comes up or whatever, And then it's like, what am I feeling?

26:17 Okay? Am I feeling upset or happy? So many people don't actually know what they're actively feeling. If I said, you have five seconds of the clock, tell me, I'll go easy, one emotion you're feeling, and sometimes I'll go tell me three emotions you're feeling. Most people can't actually do that, and you're feeling things all the time. And then also your mind, it's like, what thoughts are you having, what beliefs are resurfacing, what habits are you noticing? There is so much to get to know, and so the reason I'm laying it out like this, and in my book, I have the mind, the emotions, and the body. It's like, what is your weakest link? Maybe that's a great place to start.

26:57 It's like, I honestly was so disconnected from my body and emotions it was difficult to see what was the weakest link. But it's like, okay, where do you really feel disconnected? Maybe start there first, start paying attention to that part of yourself, and then kind of keep building on because I understand how overwhelming it would be to go like, okay, now pay attention to your mind and emotions and body immediately all at once. And I understand that that's not always sustainable. Yeah, but they are the mind, the body, and the emotions, three really key areas. I remember I was reading the part of your book about the role of our body in our sense of self and how especially I think for women, and we objectify our own bodies and we don't like how they look or we feel let down by them, and how important it is. And I was remembering that a long time ago, having a conversation with somebody who said to me, it was just in a conversation and she said something like, oh, yeah, I really need to get to yoga or some dance things she did, was something like that, and she said, it just really makes me feel in my body. It just really grounds me in my body. And I remember thinking, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, I had no idea.

28:08 I was like, what in your body? What? Like? Well, I had no concept of what that meant. And it was a it was a it was a moment for me because I thought, Wow, like, I that's interesting. I've got no idea what she's talking about. And I started to kind of pay attention to what does that mean? And it probably took me years and years to actually really feel what it means to be in my body. But it's little moments like that that cause you to pay attention to turn inward, I guess and start noticing, well, what how am I? How am I feeling? And what what is this emotion? And I say the same to my clients, like what are you feeling? And I get a whole lot of thoughts, Well, I'm thinking that that's really unfair, or you know, I thought I'm good.

28:51 I'm like not a I'm glad, but not a feeling exactly. And Sarah, you mentioned also about habits, like the role of habits in self loss, like just the things that we do habitually. And I don't mean like you make the distinction between we can all say, oh, I drink too much or I should cut down on coffee, and because I don't like that about myself, but really the habits that we ought to be paying attention to are things like you mentioned earlier, like maybe do I often say yes when I mean no? Can we just talk a bit about like habits and paying attention to habits? Yeah, So I talk about how habits are a little like putting all the wrong ingredients in a cake and then expecting to like what the cake tastes like. And it's like doing things on autopilot or doing things that don't align with you and then still expecting to know or like yourself. That's what habits are, because habits really construct who you become. Habits are the things you do every single day. Habits are actually a really serious component of identity.

29:58 And so I think, yeah. We think about drinking, we think about all these big behaviors, but it's like, even, Okay, I'm going to get out of the habit of calling a friend right when I'm upset without even. Attempting to self soothe. Do I think community is important? Absolutely? Do I think you should call your friend instead of being alone. Yeah, I'm not suggesting don't. But if you've never learned to self soothe, then that's the skill you want to have, and that's how you want to identify as someone who has the ability to take care of themselves. That way, I think. It's really important to cut that habit, maybe process it for ten to fifteen minutes, and then call your friend and have a position with which you're sharing the narrative.

30:40 I think a lot of us are also impressionable when we go into conversations without having any opinion, any position, and then we're trying to come up with that position with someone else, and that's sometimes the only way we can do it. But what I think is really important is to figure out what your position is and then be open to a tweaking, adjusting whatever, depending on people's inputs, but not fully constructing your entire viewpoint on any certain situation, just based on who you get to talk to that day. And I know many of us who are like, I want support, so I'm gonna call X, Y and ZZ because they're always the yes people, and I want pushbacks I'm gonna call. We all have those people. We know the people who we. Call and we want them to be like, yeah, your husband's the worst, or like people that are like now now you probably you know. And so I think, because that exists, is so important to take a beat. So that's like one of the habits that I talk about of potentially breaking yeah.

31:33 And I think that you know even that knowing that the first thing I do is call somebody before I've processed my emotion or got my own perspective on this is you have to be paying attention to even realize that that's what I do. So cultivating that self awareness and really like checking in and tuning in with yourself so so improbation. I think if we all it's like, if you are starting this journey and everything we're saying is a littleetch or like you're feeling really overwhelmed, just start with observation. Observe yourself for the day. Try to observe different areas, be that mental, physical, or emotional. Try to journal that one question of what did I learn, because that's really an observation question, and that's also an acceptance of truth question.

32:20 So I think it's the next two and one. Sarah. I'm aware that you have a very busy schedule and you have to go, and I could talk to you for an hour, but what I will say to people listening is there are many, many, many more of those kind of self reflective journaling type of questions throughout the book. It is so helpful. It is laid out like so step by step, you've done a really beautiful job. I've already told you I've like powered through it, and I'm going to go back to the beginning and read it through again. I've learned so much from the book and I know that, I know that listeners are going to love it. I really appreciate you making the time today, Sarah. It's been such a pleasure. I wish we had more time. I wish we had more time too, but maybe we will again. Why not?

33:01 Yeah, Yeah, let's do that. Let's do that too, Let's do let's do. Part so happy to do a part two. You heard her with your own ears, folks. She said she's coming back, and you can be sure I will be holding her to that in the meantime. Sarah's book It's on Me is available now in all bookstores obviously, as I said, the Millennial Therapist on Instagram if you'd like to go and follow her. Sarah Kubrick dot com is her website, so if you're interested in finding out more about Sarah or her works, than absolutely go and check out her website. If you enjoy this episode, as always, please do give us a rating and review. Press the plus button so that you never miss an episode. Or come and join my mailing list because I will email you every single week to let you know when there is a new episode out. Crappy to Happy Pod is our new Instagram account. Cast Don dot com is where you will find me. I cannot wait to catch you next week for another fabulous episode of Crappy to Happy