Healing from addiction with Alice Williams

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A LiSTNR production.

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Before we get into today's episode, justa heads up that

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this one does discuss eating disorders in some detail, so

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if this could be triggering for you, you might want

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to give this one a miss. It also contains some

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adult language, so if you have little ears around, you

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might want to listen to this one with headphones. And

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if you or someone you know struggles with disordered eating,

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body image or related issues, you can call the Butterfly

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National Helpline on one eight hundred ed hope. That's one

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eight hundred three three four six seven three. This is

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Crappy to Happy and I am your host, Cass Dunn. I'm

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a clinical and coaching psychologist and mindfulness meditation teacher and

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of course, author of the Crappita Happy books. In this show,

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I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who

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are experts in their field and who have something of

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value to share that will help you feel less crappy

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and more happy. Today, I am delighted to introduce you

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to someone I've had the pleasure of getting to know

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over the past couple of years. Ever since I picked

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up her memoir Bad Yogi in an airport read it,

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loved it, told everybody that I know to read it

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immediately got online to stalk the author on the internet.

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Her name is Alice Williams, and in the book, she

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documents the two years she spent undertaking her yoga teacher

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training while also working through a twelve step eating disorder

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recovery program. The blurb on the back of the book

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describes Bad Yogi as the healing memoir for people who

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hate healing memoirs, and I think that is very accurate.

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It is everything that Alice is which is warm, honest, relatable,

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and honest to God utterly hilarious. It is laugh out

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loud funny. In our conversation today, Alice shares what she

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really thought when she attended her first twelve step meeting,

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how her yoga teacher training complimented the work she was

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doing in recovery meetings, but also some of the problems

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that she sees with the spiritual bypassing that can occur

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in the wellness industry, and how she ultimately overcame her

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binge eating disorder. I'm going to leave the rest of

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it to Alice to talk about in the way only

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Alice can, and I think that by the end of

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the episode you will appreciate Alice Williams just as much

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as I do. Here is my conversation with Alice.

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Alice, Welcome to Crappy to Happy.

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Thank you.

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I first got to know you when you wrote your book,

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a self help memoir called Bad Yogi a couple of

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years ago. Absolutely loved it, have told everybody about it,

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lent it to my mum. She loved it as well,

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and she's not even the self help type, but she

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bloody loved it because it is laugh out loud funny

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while also being very personal and sharing your experience of

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working through and eating disorder. So you went through a

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yoga teacher training program at the same time as you

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were in formal sort of twelve step recovery programs for

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this eating disorder, and you talk about all of those

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experiences and share very openly and vulnerably but also hilariously

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in this book, Bad Yogi. Can you tell me just

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a little bit about what led you to write this book?

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Sure, I you know, you summed it up so well.

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I'd been working in a job in television and had

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a kind of quarter life crisis. It was a pretty

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toxic environment and that led me to well, well, basically

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fall apart. I was pretty suicidal. I realized I had

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to change direction. I did what most middle class white

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girls do, maybe to start a yoga teacher training course,

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and through doing, you know, we did our hours of

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yoga every day, and then through that really intense experience,

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it became pretty clear to me that I had a

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raging eating disorder, I should say. And so then I thought, christ,

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I'm going to have to get treatment for that as well.

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So the book was really the juxtaposition of doing that

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twelve step kind of hot house treatment while doing the

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teacher training, and the two really fed in to each other.

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They're very different approaches to recovery, healing, wellness. And I've

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always been a prolific diary keeper, and as part of

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our teacher training is we had to keep a journal

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about what the practice was, doing, the philosophy, all that

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kind of stuff. And part of twelve step is that

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you journal your feelings and blah blah blah. And I

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got to I guess the end of the process, I mean,

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you never fully recover it to a place where I'd

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felt like a bit more stable and healthy. And I thought,

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you know what, there's so much stuff in here that

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I would have needed to read. I was really starting out,

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because when I started out in recovery, all the books

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were very serious, and I think in self help particularly,

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it feels like you've got to do it the right

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way and you're not doing it the right way and

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these three steps and blah blah, and I thought, I

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just need I need a companion on the journey. I

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need someone to laugh with, someone who's made the mistakes

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same mistakes that I have. And so I kind of

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really I tell people I wrote the book that I

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needed to have. I wrote the book that I needed

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to read while I was doing that recovery. And another

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thing I noticed when I was doing I guess the

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twelve step recovery work and the teacher training was a

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lot of memoirs were very oh, I was so crap,

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and now I'm really perfect now, And that wasn't my experience.

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It was very much two steps forward, one step back.

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And also this idea that one day we're perfectly healed.

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And I mean, I'm still a crazy nut bag, but

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I don't express that through food anymore, thank god. But

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for me, healing was really about embracing the crazy nut

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bagnets rather than becoming this vanilla perfect white bikini wearing

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wellness warrior. So yeah, I kind of wrote the book

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I needed.

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And did a stellar job of that. And I think

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that there is so much to talk about. This is

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why I wanted to talk to you, but it's hard

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to know where to start. You know, you talk about this,

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They're very much about healing, and I was really curious

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to know from your experience, like where did you find

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a similarity I guess or complementary aspects of something pretty

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hardcore and confronting, like twelve steps and something much more

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I'm not going to say light but sort of light

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on like yoga teacher training, and where were they different?

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Like where what was your experience of doing those two

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things at the same time and sort of having that

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real time comparison of these two different approaches to healing

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something that really needed to be healed, like something that

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was a real problem for you.

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That's such a great question and it, I mean, there's

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so many parts to it. I should mention that the

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teacher training that I did, there are so many six

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week courses on the internet or thirty days or you

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go away for a weekend retreat and you come out

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of yoga teacher. This was the most immersive course I

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could find. It was two years full time.

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Wow.

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The first year we were told we would just be

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working on ourselves, we would just be applying the yoke

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to ourselves, and the second year was about learning to

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teach other people. So there was very much this philosophy

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that you couldn't teach until you knew exactly what all

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the practices did to ourselves. So not just us in

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our but obviously meditation, the philosophy prodiama, so you kind

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of had to go through those fires of initiation and

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it was very much I mean, I don't know how

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much people know about yoga, but there's this concept of tapis,

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which is the fire that burns away the impurities, and

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it's this idea of baptism by fire that you really

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have to dive in and lose yourself in order to

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come out ready to help others. And I think that

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was a huge point of crossover and twelve step. You

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know that it was very much about stripping away all

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your illusions, all the things that you used to prop

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yourself up, all the denial and far outcasts. It is

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absolutely horrific. It's messy, it's so painful. And I think

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that's where the two crossover again, is that there's a

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really strong toistered community and being with the same teacher

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trainees for two years, there was that sense of they

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call it sunga, so it's a spiritual community. So there

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was a sense that you're going through this experience and

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you're being really held within a group. And I think

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I've also done a lot of therapy. I think that's

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where I found it really different to therapy because with

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therapy it's just you and you know, I mean, you're

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a therapist, you and the therapist. And while that's terrific

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because you do need to get that nuance of your

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own personal history, in your own personal story, there can

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still be that sense of isolation if I'm the only

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one going through this. So yeah, I guess that's where

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they were similar, but they're also very different. And one

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way that they complimented each other was that so much

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of addiction, and I've been in several different twelve step

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recovery groups still am and so much of addiction is

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physical in that the craving is physical, even if it's

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a process addiction. So process addiction might be things like

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sex shopping to some aspects. There's aspects around food addiction,

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which is process driven.

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There's still physical triggers, and yoga had taught me to

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slow down and notice what was going on in my

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body when I was triggered, and also notice how I

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had trapped trauma within my body and how to release.

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That so that I wasn't used food in this case

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to numb it. So in that sense, I found that

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twelve step would bring up a lot of issues, a

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lot of trauma, a lot of pain, and the yoga

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really helped me be with that physically in my body

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and release it physically. So I think the two go

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absolutely hand in hand.

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I find that really interesting, and that what I find

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especially interesting. I am a therapist. I am also very

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well acquainted with how powerful meditation and yoga can be

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for healing. And I'm also doing yoga teacher training right now.

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So mine is a six month program. It's a two

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hundred hour training, you know, so definitely not a two

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year as intense as what it sounds like.

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The experience was that you had.

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And I think the reason that I was interested to

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ask that question is because I was curious to know.

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I mean, I did a lot. I did life coaching.

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I was a life coach before I became a clinical psychologist,

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and I know that a lot of people came to

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me for coaching who in hindsight possibly could have used therapy,

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you know, but there was almost this avoidance of something

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that was perceived as you know, two confronting or too challenging,

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or not wanting to admit that the problem was as

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big as it was. And almost and this is no

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disrespect to anybody, we will go through our own process

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and our own journey, but you know, almost looking for

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an alternative to the hard work going down that sort

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of coachy wellness kind of path, as an alternative to

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really facing a bigger problem head on. So yeah, that's

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why I was interested to know how you found those

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two experiences, or if you came across that yourself, or

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if you see a bit of that yourself.

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There is absolutely that aspect in the wellness community, and

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I found I still find that quite confronting in that

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one major difference I found with toll Step and wellness was,

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and I don't want to bag anyone, but the app

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sphere I find sometimes in different wellness groups like yoga groups,

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spiritual communities. That kind of stuff can be weirdly oppressive,

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and I find it because there's this pressure to be

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love and light and grateful and high vibes only that

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kind of stuff, and that can kind of when you've

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got a group. I mean, I'm not an expert in

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group dynamics, but it can kind of feed off the

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other people and depending on who's leading the group. I've

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definitely been in retreats where there's been a kind of

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sense that you're letting down the group or you're letting

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down the teacher if you bring in anything to yeah,

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if you're not constantly reinforcing that this is the best

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thing in the world. And I know that people come

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to spiritual communities who do have trauma, and you know,

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maybe that's not the place for them. And look, I

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think a lot of the practices in yoga and wellness

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are about feeling good. It's great, we all want to

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feel good, but they can be a little bit of

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a band aid as well. And this idea of the

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spiritual bypass, whereas if you've got a problem or something

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going on, you just meditate your way through, on your

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way through yoga, your way through, and that will lift

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and release it, but in fact, a lot of our

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then this is only my experience. I'm not a therapist,

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but I find that a lot of our issues really

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do have deep roots and are relational, and unless we

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kind of dig them up and examine them, we're just

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going to repeat them. And the weird thing is that

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if you do. I found that if you do go

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to yoga groups or wellness groups to have that spiritual

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bypass to feel good, you get to a point where

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you can only actually relate to other people in the

245
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yoga community or the wellness community, and there's this sense

246
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that you can only breathe the same air as other

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people who are kind of high vibes, only that anyone

248
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else might pollute you. And I think if you are

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really ground in your own sense of self, with a

250
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deep understanding of your own issues, your own triggers, and

251
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an acceptance of those things, it shouldn't matter where you are.

252
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You will be okay, You will be safe. You know,

253
00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:18.120
there's that saying. It's not about recovery, is not about

254
00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:21.159
stopping the waves. It's about learning to serve. And I

255
00:14:21.200 --> 00:14:23.840
think we do ourselves a disservice when we try and

256
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purify ourselves to the point where we can literally only

257
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live in an ashram because the rest of the world

258
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is too harsh. And it's not to say we should

259
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stay in toxic environments at all, but the aim is

260
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to be grounded enough that it doesn't affect us as

261
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deeply as if we're so pure, we can only kind

262
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of meditate the day away, otherwise we're shattered.

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I know that there will be people listening who, you know,

264
00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:49.759
as soon as we mention issues with food eating disorder

265
00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:51.840
that you recovered from an eating disorder, there are plenty

266
00:14:51.879 --> 00:14:54.519
of people who just want to know, Okay, so what

267
00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:57.759
did you do and what really worked for you? So

268
00:14:58.080 --> 00:14:59.799
I was wondering if you would mind. I know you've

269
00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:01.639
really shared this a lot in the book, but are

270
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you able to just kind of share for listeners who

271
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may also have issues with food and eating, like, what

272
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did your eating disorder kind of look like?

273
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And what were the what was the key?

274
00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:14.720
I guess not that there's a magic one, but you know, like,

275
00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:18.080
what were the keys to you effectively overcoming that? Like

276
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you said, you don't numb with food anymore, So what

277
00:15:21.159 --> 00:15:23.039
was the process for you to heal from that?

278
00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:26.960
Well, I'll talk about I just I want to be

279
00:15:27.080 --> 00:15:30.879
very clear that I'm not an eating disorder coach or anything,

280
00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:33.360
so I'll talk about my experience and what worked for me.

281
00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:37.399
Of course, basically, when I noticed that I had the

282
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issue with food, I was my issue was I would

283
00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:43.879
binge and then under eat or purge. So I would

284
00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:48.279
have these things like, Okay, it's my period week. Everyone

285
00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:51.960
gets hurry on their period, and then well it's like

286
00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:54.360
a week before my period. I can eat for that week,

287
00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:57.799
and then what's Friday. I can eat on Friday, and

288
00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:00.919
then everyone binges on the weekend. So they're all these excuses,

289
00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:03.600
and I've noticed that the binges were becoming closer and

290
00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:06.360
closer together. And it really kicked off when I was

291
00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:08.759
in that job in TV and it was so awful

292
00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:13.919
and they had this chocolate draw so they routinely wondered

293
00:16:13.960 --> 00:16:17.120
who had been stealing all the shoulge It had been me,

294
00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:19.320
and then I'd you know, eat on the way home,

295
00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:21.159
and then I'd eat to get to work, and then

296
00:16:21.159 --> 00:16:24.200
they eat throughout the day, binge on the weekend, and

297
00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:27.399
then I would purge. I purged through and I don't

298
00:16:27.399 --> 00:16:29.879
want to trigger anyone through this. I purged through exercise

299
00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:34.080
and laxatives, because I actually tried to purge vomiting, but

300
00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:37.759
I couldn't work out the mechanics. Lash and I laughed

301
00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:40.639
because I'm so grateful that I could not work out

302
00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:43.399
the mechanics, because if I had been able to, you know,

303
00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:46.159
God knows where I would have ended up. So yeah,

304
00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:49.840
I would exercise. I was exercise bolimic and laxatives. And

305
00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:53.480
I remember i'd left that job and I was applying

306
00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:56.600
for another job and I just couldn't get through the

307
00:16:56.639 --> 00:16:59.000
job application without cake. So I went and got cake,

308
00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:00.639
and then I went and got some more. And then

309
00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:02.679
when I got on some more and I was sitting

310
00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:07.079
there eating and it would it felt so mechanical. It

311
00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:10.759
was like those moments when you can see yourself outside

312
00:17:10.759 --> 00:17:14.680
your body. There was no pleasure. I just it felt

313
00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:16.839
compulsive and it was just saying, get it down, just

314
00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:19.920
get the food down, get the food down. And I

315
00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:23.519
just had this moment of looking at myself thinking something

316
00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:27.559
else is going on. And I should say I also

317
00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:29.839
had the other side, which was then I would have

318
00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:32.920
days where I would so called eat clean. And I

319
00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:36.680
hate that expression because I never use the word dieting

320
00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:40.079
because everyone knows that dieting doesn't work, but detoxing's okay.

321
00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:42.799
So there was all this language around it that I

322
00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:45.960
could use to deny that I was really just restricting

323
00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:49.279
food and you know what that looks like. It's only

324
00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:51.839
fruits some days, it's not no flat you know, no this,

325
00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:55.559
no that, And that the rules would always change. And

326
00:17:56.279 --> 00:17:59.039
part of what I've realized in recovery is that in

327
00:17:59.079 --> 00:18:04.039
itself is huge part of what an eating disorder, the

328
00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:07.000
role it plays in someone's life is that it's very distracting.

329
00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:11.119
It takes a lot of mental energy to feed that

330
00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:14.119
no pun intended. And one of the things that I

331
00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:16.839
went through in recovery was a huge grief about the

332
00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:20.000
amount of time that I'd lost, like and it still

333
00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:24.119
almost brings me to tears, being so locked up inside

334
00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:27.480
of myself and the disorder that I wasn't progressing in

335
00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:31.559
other areas of my life. Anyway, after this cake binge,

336
00:18:32.359 --> 00:18:34.240
I was meant to go to a yoga class that

337
00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:36.920
night because part of the teacher training is you had

338
00:18:36.920 --> 00:18:39.799
to do a certain a number of hours. And I

339
00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:42.599
went to the yoga class and it was a really

340
00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:45.599
crappy class. The teacher was terrible you know, there were

341
00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:49.880
too many people. So I always think even the worst teacher,

342
00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:53.079
the worst yoga class, can bring about an epiphany. But

343
00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:55.119
I was in the class and I thought, I've just

344
00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:57.400
got to really feel what the food is doing to

345
00:18:57.400 --> 00:19:00.359
my body. If I can really connect to those sensations

346
00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:02.640
in my body, I won't I'll stop eating. And I

347
00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:05.480
tried everything to stop eating, and I thought that mindfulness,

348
00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:08.599
mindfulness will make me stop eating. Sorry, Cass, I know

349
00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:12.359
you love mine. I do, and it did later on,

350
00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:14.319
but I had to go through some stuff first. But

351
00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:17.039
I was doing the class and I heard this voice

352
00:19:17.079 --> 00:19:20.599
in my head and it was my voice, but very different.

353
00:19:20.759 --> 00:19:24.240
I hadn't heard that voice for years, and it was

354
00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:27.440
very gentle, and it just said, you've got no control

355
00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:32.000
over this. You've just got no control. And I just thought,

356
00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:38.359
oh Jesus, and I kept doing the yoga and then

357
00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:41.319
the voice came back and it said, and you need help.

358
00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:46.720
And that's when I was really disgusted because I thought.

359
00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:50.359
I went home and I just thought, this is just

360
00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:54.440
terrible because my image of people with eating disorders was

361
00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:58.319
and look, I am sorry to everyone listening. I'm the

362
00:19:58.359 --> 00:20:00.200
worst person in the world. But my image of people

363
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:03.799
with eating disorders was twelve year old ballerinas. It was

364
00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:07.319
footy wags, it was women who were really vain and skinny.

365
00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:11.319
It was not it was not me. I was much

366
00:20:11.319 --> 00:20:14.640
better than that. I didn't have an eating disorder, but

367
00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:18.799
I couldn't deny that obviously I did. And I got

368
00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:21.279
online to look up sort of how to treat it.

369
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:24.200
And there was a lot of stuff that I instinctively

370
00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:30.079
just reacted against, about body love, body acceptance, all that

371
00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:33.319
kind of stuff. And even though you know, I did

372
00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:36.559
have issues with my body, I always wanted to be skinnier,

373
00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:39.480
all that kind of stuff, it wasn't the huge driver

374
00:20:39.559 --> 00:20:41.920
of it. It was really much more mental. And that

375
00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:45.000
this is where the addiction side came in. That it

376
00:20:45.079 --> 00:20:47.720
was for me, the eating disorder was really about numbing.

377
00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:50.480
And I wasn't aware of any of this until I'd

378
00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:54.200
got into recovery what function it served. But it would

379
00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:56.480
be a comfort, it would be it would help me

380
00:20:56.519 --> 00:20:58.000
when I was happy, it would help me when I

381
00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:02.640
was upset. It was really just about shutting down all feelings.

382
00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:06.759
And so I somehow knew that getting counseling around body

383
00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:13.960
image and mindfully eating food wouldn't help me, And somehow

384
00:21:13.960 --> 00:21:18.759
I stumbled onto some research that suggested that people who

385
00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:22.799
were in group support therapy along the lines of alcoholics anonymous,

386
00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:26.160
but for people with food issues, had a pretty good

387
00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:29.680
recovery rate. And I should just mention there's a few

388
00:21:29.720 --> 00:21:33.960
different twelve step groups for eating disorders, and some of

389
00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:37.759
quite strict, some are less strict, and it's really I

390
00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:40.240
found the one that worked for me. Some not going

391
00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:43.279
to kind of advocate any particular one, but I looked

392
00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:46.119
it up and there was a meeting in a few days.

393
00:21:46.440 --> 00:21:48.839
This is when we still had in person meetings, a

394
00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:52.920
twelve step meeting, and I just thought, I'm going to go,

395
00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:58.279
and I binged until that meeting started, like literally the

396
00:21:58.279 --> 00:22:01.200
moment I got on the track to the meaning and

397
00:22:01.279 --> 00:22:03.000
I had to wear my I say in the book,

398
00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:04.720
I had to wear my fat fat pants because my

399
00:22:04.759 --> 00:22:08.519
normal fat pants fit anymore. And I got to the

400
00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:11.559
meeting and I hated it, Like I don't know if

401
00:22:11.559 --> 00:22:15.000
anyone has ever been in twelve step listening, but there

402
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:18.440
were all these slogans on the wall and all these

403
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:23.240
people smiling at me in this horrible patronizing way, and

404
00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:26.880
you know, the bad coffee and it felt like something

405
00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:31.359
from some sitcom. It was so humiliating and I just

406
00:22:31.400 --> 00:22:36.160
wanted to disappear. They started talking, they did the meeting format.

407
00:22:36.200 --> 00:22:38.160
I thought, my god, this is a cult because it

408
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:41.759
mentioned God. At one point, I thought, I just want

409
00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:43.960
to be here to learn how to deal with this.

410
00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:47.160
I could do this in three days and then I'm

411
00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:49.680
out of here, like you crazy people consider I'm talking,

412
00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:53.720
but I'm not coming back, say arr anyway. And then

413
00:22:53.720 --> 00:22:55.960
one by one people started talking and they told my

414
00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:01.200
story and it was it was and I had that

415
00:23:01.279 --> 00:23:07.000
feeling of when you've lost control in that I was

416
00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:09.640
hearing things that I needed to hear that I didn't

417
00:23:09.640 --> 00:23:12.119
want to hear. I didn't want to recognize myself in

418
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:16.200
these stories. And what was interesting about the eating disorder

419
00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:21.519
the twelve step group I was in, is that it's overreaders,

420
00:23:21.599 --> 00:23:26.839
it's underreaters, it's bollimix, etc. Exix. It doesn't matter what

421
00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:29.039
you look like, what size you are, it's the fact

422
00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:32.200
that you use food, whether that's too much or not

423
00:23:32.359 --> 00:23:36.319
enough or purging. It's all the same kind of behavior,

424
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:41.279
which I really liked because it wasn't because it meant

425
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:44.000
that you could recognize yourself in people, even if their

426
00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:46.599
disorder looked a bit different to yours. And there was

427
00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:49.680
no sense of being better than someone because there one

428
00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:53.119
manifested in weight gain whereas someone else's was in weight loss.

429
00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:57.039
You know, it was all treated as a disorder. And

430
00:23:57.079 --> 00:23:59.680
then it was my turn to share, and I just

431
00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:03.359
I just cried like and I think that was the

432
00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:08.880
first moment of surrender, of letting go, that radical dropping

433
00:24:08.920 --> 00:24:11.839
of your ego because you're out of answers, you've got

434
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:17.400
nothing left. And I left there still I cannot describe

435
00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:19.319
the shame. I thought, no one is ever going to

436
00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:20.960
know that I was in this room. And then I

437
00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:24.640
wrote a book about and it was a slow process

438
00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:28.079
because I did go back the next week because I

439
00:24:28.119 --> 00:24:31.759
was still struggling, and just that sense of recognizing myself,

440
00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:34.079
you know, other people's stories was enough to get me back.

441
00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:36.519
And now I recognize that's a huge part of the

442
00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:40.480
twelve step recovery model, is that recognition in fellow addicts

443
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:44.720
of your story and without judgment, and that you're being

444
00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:48.359
seen without judgment. And there was also what kept me

445
00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:50.799
going back was no one was telling me what to do.

446
00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:52.839
You have to do this, this and this in order

447
00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:55.720
to recover. There was this idea that you take what

448
00:24:55.759 --> 00:24:57.400
you want and then leave the rest, so you come

449
00:24:57.400 --> 00:25:01.279
to it in your own time. And so actually, over

450
00:25:01.319 --> 00:25:04.640
the months, I kept going and I started to slowly

451
00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:08.559
work the program. And I am someone who hates being

452
00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:12.720
told what to do, you know, reacts against authority, really

453
00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:15.480
rebels against that stuff. But I was so desperate, like

454
00:25:15.559 --> 00:25:20.599
they call it the gift of desperation, and there was

455
00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:23.319
I guess there's about there's three different kind of ways

456
00:25:23.319 --> 00:25:25.480
that you work the program. So one way is that

457
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:28.839
you use the tools of recovery, which is using the phone,

458
00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:33.240
talking to other members, journaling, reading the literature, talking to

459
00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:37.480
a sponsor. So when those food urges or any addictive

460
00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:40.599
craving comes up, you've got another tool to replace it.

461
00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:43.359
You're not just sitting there, like they call it, white knuckling,

462
00:25:43.599 --> 00:25:47.839
gripping the chair. And so I started using the tools.

463
00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:50.559
And one of the tools was, and this is specific

464
00:25:50.599 --> 00:25:54.240
to eating disorders, was about identifying your trigger foods, So

465
00:25:54.359 --> 00:25:56.440
the foods that would trigger you to binge. And for me,

466
00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:59.319
there was no question that that was sugar. And I

467
00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:02.799
should just avert here to say because I think this

468
00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:05.960
might be quite common with people with eating disorders, and

469
00:26:06.119 --> 00:26:08.640
some people might get something out of it and other

470
00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:12.559
people won't. But I did go to a dietitian to

471
00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:16.480
get some kind of eating plan, like a basic you know,

472
00:26:16.519 --> 00:26:18.839
you need this much carbohydrate, you need this much whatever.

473
00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:23.200
And she was, you know, she was at a very

474
00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:27.759
reputable place, and she was a self styled you know,

475
00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:32.960
eating disorder teacher, I guess. And she looked at me

476
00:26:33.039 --> 00:26:36.200
with such pity when I told her my story, and

477
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:40.319
a pity that I did not appreciate, I must say.

478
00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:44.559
And she said to me, you know, we want to

479
00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:46.759
get you to a point where you can eat the cake,

480
00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:49.640
where you can eat the pizza, where you can eat

481
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:52.880
all those foods that you are scared of and they

482
00:26:52.920 --> 00:26:55.279
won't buy you. And what I want you to do

483
00:26:55.640 --> 00:26:58.200
is I really want you to go home and when

484
00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:00.000
your partner brings home the pizza, like get in life,

485
00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:03.079
life and fork you know, your best cutlery, your best china,

486
00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:07.640
and really enjoy the pizza. And then and you know,

487
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:10.200
and she'd say, you know, what's life without a slice

488
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:13.039
birthday cake? You know, we want you to intuitively know

489
00:27:13.319 --> 00:27:15.640
what your body needs, and if you let there's no

490
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:19.319
nothing off limit. And man, I was on a free

491
00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:22.359
for all after that. So the next time my partner

492
00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:26.039
bought home pizza, I was just like, yep, this is great,

493
00:27:27.400 --> 00:27:32.200
and I intuitively ate, you know, the blueberries and blueberry muffins,

494
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:35.039
and then intuitively needed a packet of chips to kind

495
00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:38.480
of to top it off, and then intuitively needed a coke.

496
00:27:39.079 --> 00:27:41.519
And I don't mean to like ridicule it, because I

497
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:44.160
do think intuitive eating works for some people. But my

498
00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:47.680
intuition was off, Like my intuition was off like a

499
00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:50.359
heroin addicts, like, you know, I really could go it

500
00:27:50.599 --> 00:27:54.759
go something right now. So I recognized that I had

501
00:27:54.799 --> 00:27:58.200
to stop. I had to use another tool.

502
00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:03.480
So my twelve program had the idea that you would

503
00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:06.359
create a food plan that worked for you. They don't

504
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:08.880
tell you what to eat, but they do say, identify

505
00:28:08.920 --> 00:28:10.440
your binge foods and that's it.

506
00:28:10.519 --> 00:28:13.839
You just don't have them. So I cut out sugar,

507
00:28:14.359 --> 00:28:19.319
and definitely there was withdrawals. Definitely there was you know,

508
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:21.680
that was a rough road, but you use the tools

509
00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:24.839
of recovery to kind of get through. And I mean,

510
00:28:24.839 --> 00:28:26.920
I would like to say that I recovered straight away,

511
00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:30.119
but there there were slips along the way. I didn't51200:28:30.119 --> 00:28:33.799



get there overnight. And this was where having a sponsor51300:28:33.839 --> 00:28:36.279



really helped, because she would say in the past, if51400:28:36.319 --> 00:28:39.960



I'd binge or if I'd break a diet, I would51500:28:39.960 --> 00:28:41.960



just say, oh, well, screw it, I'm just going to51600:28:42.119 --> 00:28:45.720



go go all out and then tomorrow I will start again.51700:28:46.599 --> 00:28:49.799



And she just kept saying. She used a metaphor of51800:28:49.799 --> 00:28:52.359



a boat. If you find yourself drifting out from shore,51900:28:52.759 --> 00:28:55.519



just start rolling back, like you don't have a tantrum,52000:28:55.720 --> 00:28:58.160



you don't jump in the water, You just start rolling back.52100:28:58.200 --> 00:28:59.920



So every time I would break and have a bin52200:29:00.480 --> 00:29:04.000



or have a bite of a trigger food, it was52300:29:04.039 --> 00:29:07.960



about cutting the drama, cutting the guilt, the shame cycle,52400:29:08.000 --> 00:29:11.440



which would just lead you further in. I'd make a52500:29:11.480 --> 00:29:14.960



phone call, let it go, and just come straight back52600:29:15.200 --> 00:29:20.240



to doing the next right thing, the next meal. And slowly,52700:29:20.799 --> 00:29:24.480



very very gently, I started to find what they call abstinence,52800:29:24.599 --> 00:29:28.480



which is abstinence in eating disorder recovery is abstaining from52900:29:28.519 --> 00:29:32.720



your particular compulsive food behaviors. And that's different for everyone.53000:29:33.039 --> 00:29:38.039



And so I think traditional eating treatment and eating disorder53100:29:38.079 --> 00:29:40.400



treatment that might be where it would end. But with53200:29:40.480 --> 00:29:44.799



the twelve steps. That was just the first step. There53300:29:44.839 --> 00:29:49.480



are eleven other steps, and the other steps really dealt53400:29:49.680 --> 00:29:56.400



with the psychological, mental, and spiritual aspects of why we eat.53500:29:56.680 --> 00:30:01.160



And it's funny because twelve steps not a twelve step guru.53600:30:01.200 --> 00:30:04.599



But the first step is different in all the programs.53700:30:04.599 --> 00:30:07.279



It might be unpowerless over food, I'm powerless over sex,53800:30:07.279 --> 00:30:10.240



I'm powerless over drugs, But the rest of the steps53900:30:10.240 --> 00:30:12.319



are the same for everyone. And that is because I54000:30:12.319 --> 00:30:16.079



think addiction works in the same way for everyone. Really,54100:30:16.759 --> 00:30:20.200



And a huge principle in the twelve step program is54200:30:20.240 --> 00:30:24.799



that it is a spiritual disconnection, and so it mentions God,54300:30:24.920 --> 00:30:27.039



but it really can be anything. It doesn't have to54400:30:27.039 --> 00:30:31.440



be like a Christian God or something outside of yourself.54500:30:31.640 --> 00:30:35.680



For me, often it's just my intuition, but that sense54600:30:35.759 --> 00:30:40.640



of something greater than just you. So it's really it's54700:30:40.720 --> 00:30:43.519



not a religious program. It's just about that sense of54800:30:44.079 --> 00:30:48.000



defining and connecting to something that you feel can help54900:30:48.039 --> 00:30:50.799



you along the way. Yeah, And then it gets in55000:30:50.920 --> 00:30:54.039



the different steps get it into different aspects of our55100:30:54.079 --> 00:30:56.640



lives and the way we relate to ourselves and to others.55200:30:57.200 --> 00:31:03.519



And I found it intense, profound and I just could55300:31:03.519 --> 00:31:05.599



not have done that without the support of the other55400:31:05.640 --> 00:31:10.039



people in the community. And one thing that I often55500:31:10.079 --> 00:31:13.480



thought early on was if I could not have this55600:31:13.519 --> 00:31:15.920



eating disorder and not come to this group, but I55700:31:16.000 --> 00:31:18.279



do it, And at first the answer is always absolutely,55800:31:18.960 --> 00:31:21.440



And now I can't believe I'm saying I'm actually really55900:31:21.480 --> 00:31:26.039



grateful for having had it because it led me somewhere56000:31:26.200 --> 00:31:30.039



which has completely changed every single aspect of my life.56100:31:30.119 --> 00:31:33.960



It's made every aspect of my life so much richer,56200:31:34.319 --> 00:31:36.839



and I would not have got there without hitting that56300:31:36.920 --> 00:31:39.599



rock bottom. That was a very long answer to a56400:31:39.680 --> 00:31:40.480



very short question.56500:31:40.960 --> 00:31:43.279



I feel like we could wrap up this podcast now56600:31:43.319 --> 00:31:45.359



and that would be a great episode because you've just56700:31:45.480 --> 00:31:49.119



hit on every single thing that I know. That's like56800:31:49.240 --> 00:31:52.359



so many questions that people would ask you have just56900:31:52.519 --> 00:31:55.079



answered them all, and I just wanted to say so57000:31:55.240 --> 00:31:58.640



going back, I really appreciate you know. I don't think57100:31:58.640 --> 00:32:01.319



you need to apologize. I think it's really important that57200:32:01.359 --> 00:32:04.759



you are so honest about your own precons you know,57300:32:04.839 --> 00:32:08.599



your own personal biases and the preconceived ideas you have57400:32:08.640 --> 00:32:11.400



about people with eating disorders, you know, because I think57500:32:11.519 --> 00:32:16.400



everybody has those judgments, and like that's what gets in57600:32:16.559 --> 00:32:20.000



the way. And that's the whole point, isn't it. Like57700:32:20.039 --> 00:32:22.039



that's why you wrote the book. It's because you share57800:32:22.240 --> 00:32:26.200



every thought that you have, which other people don't want57900:32:26.200 --> 00:32:29.880



to admit that they have. And that's that's the past. Like,58000:32:29.960 --> 00:32:32.759



that's what is so helpful. You're so relatable.58100:32:33.519 --> 00:32:35.920



Cas. It's so funny that you should say that because58200:32:35.920 --> 00:32:38.400



one of my best friends is the author Kate Holden,58300:32:38.480 --> 00:32:41.799



who wrote In My Skin, and Kate was on heroin58400:32:41.839 --> 00:32:45.359



for five years and worked as a prostitute sex worker,58500:32:45.960 --> 00:32:50.160



and she talks about that in her story. And Kate,58600:32:50.240 --> 00:32:52.200



I just have to say it. She is cool, Like58700:32:52.319 --> 00:32:55.279



she is fucking cool, Like she looks cool. She's got58800:32:55.279 --> 00:32:58.759



these cool stories about what she used to do on drugs,58900:32:58.839 --> 00:33:02.359



you know. And I'm over here like, oh, I can't59000:33:02.400 --> 00:33:08.519



handle my bars. And there's a lot of people, there's59100:33:08.519 --> 00:33:10.200



a lot of people in twelve Step who are what59200:33:10.240 --> 00:33:13.720



they call cross addicted. So you've got different addictions. And59300:33:14.839 --> 00:33:17.799



I have other things as well. And I found that59400:33:17.920 --> 00:33:22.119



once one addiction goes it goes into recovery. Often other59500:33:22.200 --> 00:33:24.759



things might pop up. So it might be shopping, it59600:33:24.839 --> 00:33:27.720



might be sex, it might be something else, which is59700:33:27.759 --> 00:33:29.960



where I guess the program helps because it helps you59800:33:30.039 --> 00:33:32.920



recognize when that's happening and kind of come back to yourself.59900:33:33.480 --> 00:33:35.759



But yeah, so there's lots of cross addicted people in60000:33:35.799 --> 00:33:39.319



the meetings, and I just remember this one guy I60100:33:39.359 --> 00:33:42.480



was in a food meeting and it was his laborer,60200:33:42.799 --> 00:33:47.319



like he was wearing his fluo vest and he's like, oh, man,60300:33:47.519 --> 00:33:50.799



you know, I'm in NA, which is narcotics Anonymous for60400:33:50.960 --> 00:33:55.680



like smack. And I got to say, like, this is humiliating,60500:33:55.799 --> 00:33:57.839



Like I feel cool when I go to those meetings,60600:33:57.880 --> 00:34:02.200



but man, coming to this one, Oh, it's just the worst.60700:34:03.279 --> 00:34:06.720



And I remember reading an account of someone who was60800:34:06.720 --> 00:34:10.960



in rehab in with IT in England, the Priori, the60900:34:10.960 --> 00:34:13.559



one that Kate Moss went to anyway, and she said61000:34:13.639 --> 00:34:17.239



there's like a real hierarchy in rehab of like who's61100:34:17.280 --> 00:34:20.079



the coolest, and at the top is the drugs, and61200:34:20.079 --> 00:34:23.199



then there's sex, and then there's alcohol, and then way61300:34:23.280 --> 00:34:25.719



at the bottom is like the eating disorder patients and61400:34:25.760 --> 00:34:30.639



everyone's like, oh man, what do you even doing? So yeah,61500:34:31.159 --> 00:34:34.159



I feel deeply uncol having this is my issue cast61600:34:34.800 --> 00:34:36.599



but having said that, I'm very grateful.61700:34:36.639 --> 00:34:39.480



It's not drugs, and I, you know, I just also61800:34:39.480 --> 00:34:41.079



wanted to highlight that you said that you went to61900:34:41.119 --> 00:34:42.960



this meeting and it was like oh my god, and62000:34:43.000 --> 00:34:45.719



the slogans and the people and like this is not62100:34:45.800 --> 00:34:48.960



for me. And it's like, I think that's what most62200:34:49.000 --> 00:34:51.559



people would think, like how most people would feel, and62300:34:51.559 --> 00:34:56.800



that's what stops people from showing up, right, And but62400:34:57.440 --> 00:34:59.360



for you to be able to share that you went62500:34:59.639 --> 00:35:01.599



and what you you got from it and you went back,62600:35:02.199 --> 00:35:05.519



you know, it's it's amazing, Like it really is amazing.62700:35:05.719 --> 00:35:08.199



There is so much that so many people can relate to.62800:35:08.599 --> 00:35:10.840



And I wanted to point out too, like the point62900:35:10.880 --> 00:35:13.559



that you make. And I still think I feel like63000:35:13.599 --> 00:35:15.639



this is obvious, but I feel like a lot of63100:35:15.679 --> 00:35:20.320



people still don't necessarily get this, that all addiction is63200:35:20.360 --> 00:35:20.840



the same.63300:35:21.480 --> 00:35:23.159



It's like if it's food or.63400:35:23.159 --> 00:35:26.039



Alcohol or shopping or eggs or gambling, like it's all63500:35:26.079 --> 00:35:30.000



serving the same purpose. And I think there is that63600:35:30.360 --> 00:35:35.559



kind of I don't really have a problem because because63700:35:35.599 --> 00:35:38.760



I'm doing this, it's you know, it's like it's that63800:35:38.880 --> 00:35:43.320



hierarchy or if you're drinking too much, you've got a problem.63900:35:44.119 --> 00:35:46.760



You know, if you're addicted to alcohol, there's a problem.64000:35:46.800 --> 00:35:49.280



But if you're addicted to work, if you're addicted to64100:35:49.360 --> 00:35:52.960



marathon running, that's all fine, Like that's all really good,64200:35:53.880 --> 00:35:55.960



do you know. Like I think there's that as well,64300:35:55.960 --> 00:35:59.159



like these like socially acceptable addictions. But it's about that64400:35:59.280 --> 00:36:02.400



radical self honesty about why am I doing this?64500:36:03.360 --> 00:36:05.760



And I think that's I mean, the first step is64600:36:05.800 --> 00:36:08.960



really about piercing that denial. And I had huge layers64700:36:08.960 --> 00:36:11.719



of denial because I looked normal on the outside. And64800:36:11.760 --> 00:36:15.159



I think the kind of eating disorder I had is64900:36:15.199 --> 00:36:19.920



incredibly common, where it's binging, sometimes under eating, sometimes not65000:36:20.039 --> 00:36:22.679



throwing up, because it's throwing up is often like such65100:36:22.679 --> 00:36:25.840



a huge obvious sign to yourself that something's wrong. But65200:36:26.320 --> 00:36:28.679



I was. I managed to keep a normal weight. I65300:36:28.719 --> 00:36:33.400



even looked probably healthy, because those behaviors were balancing themselves out.65400:36:33.639 --> 00:36:36.000



And I would go to meetings and see people who65500:36:36.079 --> 00:36:41.000



were obese or anorexic, and I'm not that sorry. Therefore65600:36:41.039 --> 00:36:44.239



I'm fine. And I think there's a lot of high65700:36:44.239 --> 00:36:48.360



functioning addicts out there, and that's in a way, you know,65800:36:48.400 --> 00:36:51.199



you're not lying in the gutter, so you think, oh,65900:36:51.239 --> 00:36:56.079



I'm fine, But only you can know how much it's66000:36:56.119 --> 00:36:59.320



affecting you, and how much it's affecting your relationships, and66100:36:59.320 --> 00:37:03.440



how persistent those thoughts are. And I think the mental aspect,66200:37:03.679 --> 00:37:06.920



how much it's intruding, is a huge thing. And look,66300:37:07.000 --> 00:37:08.960



no one wants to have an addiction, No one wants66400:37:09.000 --> 00:37:13.280



to have this stuff. But it's that sense of desperation66500:37:13.599 --> 00:37:16.960



that will you know, we respond to pain. That's that's66600:37:17.000 --> 00:37:19.440



what will often drive you there. And look, I often66700:37:19.599 --> 00:37:22.039



you often see people in their first meeting and you66800:37:22.159 --> 00:37:28.039



just I recognize myself so much that look of horror66900:37:28.199 --> 00:37:32.039



and shock and like, who are these crazy people? And67000:37:32.159 --> 00:37:33.559



you just want to give them a big hug, but67100:37:33.599 --> 00:37:35.920



you don't want to like overwhelm them, like welcome to67200:37:35.960 --> 00:37:39.239



the club. And look, you just hope they come back,67300:37:39.559 --> 00:37:42.440



and often they do. And it's it's often the people67400:37:42.440 --> 00:37:45.079



who surprise you who really stick with the program and67500:37:45.119 --> 00:37:48.480



have the biggest transformations. And they they have an expression67600:37:48.559 --> 00:37:51.360



which is don't stop till the miracle happens, which is67700:37:51.440 --> 00:37:53.960



it gets it does get harder before it gets easy67800:37:53.960 --> 00:37:57.199



in it, but don't give it up, because you know67900:37:57.320 --> 00:37:59.639



recovery is just it is a miracle. I know, I68000:37:59.679 --> 00:38:02.079



sound way cap it is such a miracle as a gift.68100:38:06.159 --> 00:38:09.440



I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the68200:38:09.480 --> 00:38:12.400



benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are68300:38:12.519 --> 00:38:15.239



enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe68400:38:15.239 --> 00:38:17.599



so that you get notified when you epps drop and68500:38:17.679 --> 00:38:20.119



head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen68600:38:20.159 --> 00:38:30.199



and leave us a rating and review. So some of68700:38:30.199 --> 00:38:31.880



the questions I had for you, Alice, which you have68800:38:32.079 --> 00:38:36.719



probably already answered, I think the things that typically put68900:38:36.840 --> 00:38:43.639



people off something like a twelve step program, quite apart69000:38:43.639 --> 00:38:46.719



from the stigma of it, to be perfectly honest, like,69100:38:46.800 --> 00:38:52.559



oh God, I don't need that. Number one, the God69200:38:52.880 --> 00:38:55.039



is a big thing. Got to hand everything over to God.69300:38:55.960 --> 00:38:58.320



And I think number two, or maybe if at number one,69400:38:58.480 --> 00:39:05.000



is that admitting that you are powerless over whatever. And69500:39:05.039 --> 00:39:07.840



I know that you're very honest about all of that,69600:39:08.039 --> 00:39:10.880



your experience of that. So are you able to just69700:39:10.920 --> 00:39:12.519



talk a little bit more about how you were able69800:39:12.559 --> 00:39:15.159



to reconcile that for yourself to be able to continue69900:39:15.159 --> 00:39:15.760



on that path?70000:39:16.239 --> 00:39:20.079



Absolutely well, I guess I'll address the powerlessness first and70100:39:20.119 --> 00:39:23.920



then the god stuff just briefly. It's only when you70200:39:23.960 --> 00:39:26.239



try and give something up that you realize how much70300:39:26.280 --> 00:39:29.119



it's got a hold on you. So that expression I70400:39:29.119 --> 00:39:31.800



can stop anytime, I like, well, why don't you just70500:39:31.880 --> 00:39:36.400



try and see how that goes. So when I came70600:39:36.440 --> 00:39:39.719



into recovery, I was really in denial that I was70700:39:39.800 --> 00:39:42.119



as bad as everyone else, and then when I tried70800:39:42.159 --> 00:39:45.599



to stop, I couldn't. And in terms of that moment70900:39:45.599 --> 00:39:49.880



of powerlessness, I remember, I've been resisting the second step,71000:39:49.880 --> 00:39:52.559



which is about God. And I do just want to71100:39:52.559 --> 00:39:55.400



clarify again the God one is just a word. It71200:39:55.400 --> 00:39:58.400



can be anything. It's not that you have to believe71300:39:58.400 --> 00:40:01.880



in God or anything. And I remember i'd just come71400:40:01.880 --> 00:40:04.360



home from the hospital my dad was really sick. I'd71500:40:04.400 --> 00:40:07.800



been in program, in the recovery program for months, I'd71600:40:07.840 --> 00:40:10.079



been in yoga teacher training for months, and I just71700:40:10.119 --> 00:40:13.000



had another bingch And I knew everything about dieting, in71800:40:13.079 --> 00:40:16.880



nutrition and mindfulness, and I'd use the tools and nothing71900:40:17.000 --> 00:40:21.599



could stop me from keeping going with eating and nothing72000:40:21.599 --> 00:40:24.000



could stop me from the plan to purge it all72100:40:24.000 --> 00:40:27.360



the next day, and I remember just lying on the72200:40:27.400 --> 00:40:31.039



couch and looking up at the ceiling and just feeling defeated.72300:40:31.360 --> 00:40:34.039



And I just thought, I don't give a shit. I've72400:40:34.039 --> 00:40:38.039



got nothing. I can't solve this. There has got to72500:40:38.119 --> 00:40:42.480



be something else out there because I cannot do this72600:40:42.599 --> 00:40:44.960



on my own. And if there is something else out there,72700:40:45.039 --> 00:40:48.079



will fucking hurry up and identify yourself? Can I need help?72800:40:49.039 --> 00:40:52.559



And look, that's when I started looking at the second step,72900:40:52.599 --> 00:40:55.239



which was about came to believe that a power greater73000:40:55.280 --> 00:40:58.400



than ourselves could restore us to sanity. And sanity is73100:40:58.480 --> 00:41:02.440



just how, you know, not being crazy around food, eating73200:41:02.480 --> 00:41:06.480



sensibly all that stuff. And I had a sponsor, and73300:41:07.119 --> 00:41:10.960



I grew up the most atheist of atheists, Like atheism73400:41:11.079 --> 00:41:13.280



was our religion. My family thought that if you believed73500:41:13.280 --> 00:41:15.400



in God, it was because there was something deeply wrong73600:41:15.440 --> 00:41:17.199



with you. And now I realize that's true. There was73700:41:17.239 --> 00:41:19.880



something deeply wrong with me. Then you need a hand73800:41:19.880 --> 00:41:22.960



to hold and you know, you poor little thing. And73900:41:23.039 --> 00:41:26.119



so I sort of had a disgust about that idea,74000:41:26.159 --> 00:41:29.320



but I had that visceral memory of lying on the couch,74100:41:29.440 --> 00:41:31.239



and I just thought, I've got to try something because74200:41:31.280 --> 00:41:33.280



I'm going to die, like I'm going to commit suicide.74300:41:33.320 --> 00:41:36.639



I'm going to something's going to happen. And my sponsor74400:41:36.760 --> 00:41:40.840



just made really gentle suggestions. She said, write a job74500:41:40.880 --> 00:41:44.119



description of what you would want a higher power to74600:41:44.199 --> 00:41:46.480



be and do in your life, and then act as74700:41:46.519 --> 00:41:50.039



if that exists. And I thought, well, that's ridiculous, but74800:41:50.239 --> 00:41:52.440



I did what she suggested, and I wanted it to74900:41:52.480 --> 00:41:55.280



be loving. I wanted it to be, you know, working75000:41:55.280 --> 00:41:58.840



in my favor. I wanted it to be forgiving of75100:41:58.880 --> 00:42:02.880



when I was imperfect. And that's a huge part of75200:42:02.920 --> 00:42:05.760



my sense of a higher power now is that I'm75300:42:05.800 --> 00:42:09.360



not judged. I loved flaws and all even more for75400:42:09.440 --> 00:42:12.360



my flaws because I was judging myself so much for75500:42:12.440 --> 00:42:16.880



my flaws. And I just kind of started acting as75600:42:16.920 --> 00:42:20.519



if that existed. So when I wasn't sure, I would75700:42:20.639 --> 00:42:22.800



about what to do. I would think, okay, so if75800:42:22.840 --> 00:42:25.719



I had this higher power, what might that suggestion be?75900:42:26.519 --> 00:42:28.760



And it would be something like go for a walk,76000:42:29.119 --> 00:42:33.000



you know, or just do the first five minutes. And76100:42:33.079 --> 00:42:37.119



one acronism acronym that people have for God in program76200:42:37.320 --> 00:42:40.000



is good orderly direction. So it's not God, it's just76300:42:40.559 --> 00:42:44.239



good orderly direction, the next right thing. So I did76400:42:44.280 --> 00:42:46.320



that and I kind of, you know, acted as if76500:42:46.360 --> 00:42:51.639



this thing existed, and cas like, I just don't know76600:42:51.679 --> 00:42:54.880



how to say this without sounding really strange. But my76700:42:54.960 --> 00:42:57.719



life just started to change and I couldn't explain it.76800:42:58.239 --> 00:43:01.920



Opportunities came out of nowhere. People were behaving differently. I76900:43:02.000 --> 00:43:05.840



was behaving differently. My thoughts started to be different, and77000:43:05.880 --> 00:43:09.559



I couldn't it wasn't coming from me, like I was77100:43:09.599 --> 00:43:11.920



doing what they call the footwork. The footwork is where77200:43:11.960 --> 00:43:14.000



you do your part, so you make the list, you77300:43:14.039 --> 00:43:16.760



act as if you make the phone calls. But then77400:43:16.840 --> 00:43:19.559



it was like something else was kind of stepping in77500:43:19.599 --> 00:43:23.239



to meet me halfway and doing the things for me77600:43:23.800 --> 00:43:26.000



that as they say that you can't do for yourself.77700:43:26.880 --> 00:43:29.760



And look, I don't know if God exists. I don't know.77800:43:29.840 --> 00:43:31.400



I won't know till I die and I meet them77900:43:31.480 --> 00:43:33.800



or don't meet them. But I do know that when78000:43:33.880 --> 00:43:36.440



I'm willing to be open to that and I do78100:43:36.559 --> 00:43:41.559



my share far out, my life is a million times better,78200:43:41.599 --> 00:43:45.199



like indescribably better. And so I think because I had78300:43:45.199 --> 00:43:47.960



that evidence of working. Oh and I should say, my78400:43:48.079 --> 00:43:52.239



eating disorder started to clear up as if on its own,78500:43:52.320 --> 00:43:57.119



it wasn't It wasn't hard, like it wasn't like fighting78600:43:57.159 --> 00:43:58.840



it every day no, I'm not going to eat that. No,78700:43:58.880 --> 00:44:01.880



I'm not going to eat that. Like it was like78800:44:02.639 --> 00:44:06.760



the cravings started to be lifted. And it didn't happen overnight.78900:44:07.519 --> 00:44:09.880



It happened very slowly. But I just noticed that I79000:44:09.920 --> 00:44:13.599



wasn't thinking about food. And it was like when you79100:44:13.639 --> 00:44:16.880



can breathe after being in a stuffy room for years79200:44:17.000 --> 00:44:21.079



and you can suddenly feel that fresh air. And yeah,79300:44:21.159 --> 00:44:23.559



I couldn't explain it. And it was really funny because79400:44:23.599 --> 00:44:25.719



then I started to think I was this really spiritual79500:44:25.760 --> 00:44:31.679



person who loved everyone and became such an insufferable wanka79600:44:31.840 --> 00:44:33.960



about the whole thing. And I've got to tell everybody79700:44:34.000 --> 00:44:40.159



the good news. And I've since calmed down a lot79800:44:40.199 --> 00:44:44.360



about that. It's a much more personal relationship. And I79900:44:44.400 --> 00:44:47.719



will add as well, like I think that if you80000:44:47.920 --> 00:44:52.400



have addiction, it never fully goes away. It certainly hasn't80100:44:52.440 --> 00:44:55.480



for me in the sense that I am in recovery80200:44:55.480 --> 00:44:57.880



from an eating disorder. But I still have thoughts that80300:44:57.920 --> 00:45:02.599



come up around certain things, and they say that, you know,80400:45:02.679 --> 00:45:06.679



our recovery is contingent on that daily spiritual connection, and80500:45:06.760 --> 00:45:09.280



so for me, it's a daily practice of connecting to80600:45:09.280 --> 00:45:13.280



my higher power through meditation, and you know, sometimes I80700:45:13.280 --> 00:45:15.400



don't believe in God, I disbelieve in my intuition, and80800:45:15.440 --> 00:45:18.199



other times I believe in you know, and it doesn't matter.80900:45:18.320 --> 00:45:21.440



It really doesn't. No one's going to tell you what81000:45:21.519 --> 00:45:24.239



it should be. And I think that's actually really want81100:45:24.280 --> 00:45:29.000



to make this point. I think that that's one interesting81200:45:29.239 --> 00:45:32.840



correlation between twelve Step and yoga is I found in81300:45:32.880 --> 00:45:35.320



twelve Step one of the things that kept me going81400:45:35.360 --> 00:45:38.239



is that there's no hierarchy. There's no leader. There are81500:45:38.280 --> 00:45:41.960



the founders of AA who wrote the literature and I81600:45:41.960 --> 00:45:46.599



guess the program originated with but there's no head person.81700:45:47.280 --> 00:45:50.719



The meeting leaders change all the time, so there's not81800:45:50.840 --> 00:45:53.719



this cult of personality. And I find that really attractive81900:45:53.760 --> 00:45:55.760



because it's no one's going to get off on me82000:45:56.400 --> 00:45:58.960



doing the program. No one wants to take my power82100:45:59.000 --> 00:46:04.480



by me worship them. Whereas in yoga, I found culturally82200:46:04.519 --> 00:46:07.519



it lent itself very much to someone being the head82300:46:07.840 --> 00:46:11.760



of certain practices, someone saying this is how you do it.82400:46:12.480 --> 00:46:16.440



And I found that very very off putting. And I'm82500:46:16.440 --> 00:46:19.239



always quite I certainly have teachers who I look up to,82600:46:20.239 --> 00:46:25.280



but I did see cases of abuse and experienced cases82700:46:25.280 --> 00:46:28.679



where people would try to I don't know how to82800:46:28.679 --> 00:46:31.840



put this, get me to hand something over to them82900:46:31.960 --> 00:46:37.599



about myself in the name of spiritual progress and far out.83000:46:37.719 --> 00:46:41.639



It just it's pretty pretty horrific that that can happen.83100:46:41.719 --> 00:46:44.800



And I think it's especially horrific because people do go83200:46:44.840 --> 00:46:49.159



to wellness communities when they're feeling vulnerable, and you really83300:46:49.199 --> 00:46:51.039



do I wanted someone to tell me what to do,83400:46:51.119 --> 00:46:53.920



and I would do it. You know. I was right83500:46:54.039 --> 00:46:57.039



for that kind of abuse. And there's a chapter in83600:46:57.079 --> 00:47:01.960



the book where I go to I don't name it,83700:47:02.039 --> 00:47:05.480



but it's the Satchananda Ashram, and I was writing an83800:47:05.559 --> 00:47:08.719



article for Yoga magazine about sexual sexual abuse within the83900:47:08.760 --> 00:47:13.920



yoga community. And I found out afterwards that the Royal84000:47:13.960 --> 00:47:18.880



Commission into Child Sexual Abuse in Institutions had had submissions84100:47:18.920 --> 00:47:22.119



from people who'd been abused by Satchernanda and by people84200:47:22.159 --> 00:47:25.320



who worked at the ashram. And while I was there,84300:47:25.519 --> 00:47:27.400



I didn't know that at the time, but I remember84400:47:27.440 --> 00:47:33.280



having this really uncomfortable feeling of oppression and worship that84500:47:33.360 --> 00:47:38.480



you had to suppress your aspects of yourself to give84600:47:38.519 --> 00:47:41.079



over to the leaders of the ashram. And there were84700:47:41.440 --> 00:47:46.159



even things like women weren't allowed to wear clothing. Police84800:47:46.239 --> 00:47:48.079



were out in force that you weren't allowed to wear84900:47:48.119 --> 00:47:50.880



certain things lest you inspire lust and all that kind85000:47:50.920 --> 00:47:54.280



of thing. And so it wasn't about people should maybe85100:47:54.360 --> 00:47:56.280



just not try and have sex with someone if they85200:47:56.280 --> 00:47:59.400



don't want to. It was about you shouldn't provoke lust85300:47:59.480 --> 00:48:03.079



by wearing a pair of leggings. And then I read85400:48:03.159 --> 00:48:05.679



that the founders of the ashram had been cherry picking85500:48:05.760 --> 00:48:09.559



young girls anyway. So it was that sense of not owning,85600:48:10.719 --> 00:48:13.639



that sense that you had to surrender a part of85700:48:13.679 --> 00:48:17.599



yourself for spiritual advancement. And I did an interview with85800:48:17.679 --> 00:48:20.920



some people who'd left the Shiva Yoga Ashram, which is85900:48:20.960 --> 00:48:24.920



another ashram in Melbourne where the leader has been accused86000:48:24.960 --> 00:48:27.599



of sexual abuse and is still running it, I think.86100:48:28.239 --> 00:48:31.079



And one of the survivors said something to me really interesting.86200:48:31.280 --> 00:48:35.039



She said, and I just if anyone takes one thing86300:48:35.239 --> 00:48:38.119



from this podcast, I hope they take this. I will86400:48:38.159 --> 00:48:41.039



never ever trust someone who claims to be closer to86500:48:41.079 --> 00:48:44.159



God than I am. And it's not just God, it's86600:48:44.199 --> 00:48:46.719



someone claiming to have the truth and they can show you.86700:48:47.239 --> 00:48:48.920



And sure there are going to be teachers who can86800:48:48.920 --> 00:48:51.159



teach you meditation. There are going to be people who86900:48:51.199 --> 00:48:54.840



can give you tools to advance you. But if someone87000:48:54.880 --> 00:48:57.519



has got is a bit tighter than God, then you87100:48:57.559 --> 00:49:00.400



are with God than you are. That is fucking walkshit87200:49:00.440 --> 00:49:04.400



and run a mile, because you can't get closer than87300:49:04.440 --> 00:49:07.239



you already are. We just can't already always see it.87400:49:07.800 --> 00:49:12.440



Yeah, good advice, And you're so right. You raise a87500:49:12.480 --> 00:49:16.000



really good point about wellness communities. And this is not87600:49:16.119 --> 00:49:19.039



like I'm all for wellness communities. I'm all for well87700:49:19.079 --> 00:49:23.159



I guess I'm all for people wanting to better themselves87800:49:23.199 --> 00:49:25.519



and look at themselves and be you know self compassion87900:49:25.599 --> 00:49:28.760



and mindfulness and meditation and be the best version of yourself.88000:49:28.760 --> 00:49:29.719



But you're quite right.88100:49:29.920 --> 00:49:34.639



It does attract sometimes people who are vulnerable and who88200:49:34.719 --> 00:49:38.199



are looking for a guru. And it attracts people who88300:49:38.199 --> 00:49:42.119



want to be a guru and who aren't always the88400:49:42.400 --> 00:49:48.199



most open hearted, who are dangerous potentially characters. I listened88500:49:48.199 --> 00:49:49.760



to a podcast I don't know if you've ever heard88600:49:49.760 --> 00:49:52.960



of it called Guru. I'm pretty sure it's a wondering podcast,88700:49:53.079 --> 00:49:58.039



and it was about a self styled personal development leader88800:49:58.239 --> 00:50:00.400



running seminars and attracted a big following.88900:50:00.440 --> 00:50:01.320



You know, we know many of them.89000:50:01.360 --> 00:50:04.000



They're all out there who ended up having somebody die89100:50:04.079 --> 00:50:08.079



in a makeshift sort of sweat lodge, basically boiled alive89200:50:08.199 --> 00:50:11.079



in a sweat lodge because they were pushing themselves, you89300:50:11.079 --> 00:50:14.159



know that go into the fire, you know, and burn89400:50:14.199 --> 00:50:16.599



off all of your impurities and all of the rest89500:50:16.639 --> 00:50:20.239



of it quite literally and actually died. And he is89600:50:20.320 --> 00:50:23.840



still He's still out there preaching and practicing and taking89700:50:23.840 --> 00:50:27.800



people on on you know, retreats, and it's.89800:50:27.679 --> 00:50:31.320



Amazing when you see that they're allowed to. But you know,89900:50:31.400 --> 00:50:35.079



there's that saying like he who is without sin Carcifer's90000:50:35.119 --> 00:50:40.679



stone stone, and I even though like the abuses are90100:50:41.239 --> 00:50:45.760



the extreme obvious end, the thing that I really got90200:50:45.800 --> 00:50:48.920



from twelve Step and yoga is that you have to90300:50:49.000 --> 00:50:53.559



confront those aspects of ourselves that might be abusive or90400:50:53.599 --> 00:50:57.360



that might want to hold onto power that we all90500:50:57.639 --> 00:51:02.639



have aspects of that egotism. And part of yoga teaching90600:51:02.719 --> 00:51:06.039



I find is I have to be really aware of90700:51:06.280 --> 00:51:09.920



when I am wanting to be the guru on the stage,90800:51:10.280 --> 00:51:13.679



when I am feeding off my student's energy, when I'm90900:51:13.719 --> 00:51:16.239



starting to feel pretty good about myself, as if the91000:51:16.360 --> 00:51:19.599



yogurt is coming from me as if they're my teachings91100:51:20.440 --> 00:51:23.880



rather than I'm just they're coming through me and I'm91200:51:23.880 --> 00:51:27.239



adding my own flavor, and that can be really hard.91300:51:27.320 --> 00:51:30.800



I mean, depending on what's motivating someone to teach. There's91400:51:30.840 --> 00:51:34.360



definitely been times when I felt not so good about91500:51:34.360 --> 00:51:38.119



myself and then I would teach a class and feel91600:51:38.119 --> 00:51:40.400



like I had a lot of wisdom to impart. People91700:51:40.440 --> 00:51:42.719



could really learn from me. Hey, maybe I really need91800:51:42.760 --> 00:51:46.719



to start a business where I am like an influence sarasling.91900:51:47.599 --> 00:51:49.639



And not to be down on that, because I think,92000:51:49.719 --> 00:51:53.119



you know, that's perfectly legitimate, but just that you have92100:51:53.199 --> 00:51:58.519



to have that continual checking in process about letting go92200:51:59.000 --> 00:52:02.280



and not not hanging on to that ego aspect of teaching,92300:52:02.599 --> 00:52:04.599



and I guess it's the same for I mean, I92400:52:04.639 --> 00:52:07.079



guess is it the same for therapists where people can92500:52:07.119 --> 00:52:10.199



put you on a pedestal and you've got a.92600:52:09.800 --> 00:52:13.920



Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent And you know, I remember92700:52:14.440 --> 00:52:16.639



that really struck me when I was again I was92800:52:16.679 --> 00:52:19.280



Tara Bark, who is a clinical psychologist but also a92900:52:19.280 --> 00:52:21.159



Buddhist practitioner and teacher.93000:52:21.239 --> 00:52:22.760



She's well known around the world.93100:52:23.280 --> 00:52:25.480



But I was reading her book, and she said that93200:52:25.599 --> 00:52:30.079



in Buddhism, like there is no special person, and you know,93300:52:30.079 --> 00:52:30.920



everybody's equal.93400:52:30.920 --> 00:52:32.639



We're all we all are equal.93500:52:32.719 --> 00:52:36.159



That's what equanimity, right is as well, we're all equal,93600:52:36.360 --> 00:52:38.880



and that's humility, and there's nobody better than the other,93700:52:39.000 --> 00:52:42.000



and there's no hierarchy, and that she sometimes has to93800:52:42.079 --> 00:52:45.599



check in with herself when she starts finding herself going,93900:52:45.719 --> 00:52:49.000



you know, like somebody's late for her, I'm Tara Bark and.94000:52:49.039 --> 00:52:50.800



I do you not know who I am? Kind of thing.94100:52:50.920 --> 00:52:52.400



She's very honest about.94200:52:52.079 --> 00:52:55.960



That as her position as she became more well known,94300:52:56.760 --> 00:53:00.280



you know, somebody not having the meditation Matt set up ride,94400:53:00.400 --> 00:53:03.000



or somebody running late for you know, some session that94500:53:03.039 --> 00:53:05.440



she's running as she's live streaming around the world, you know,94600:53:05.800 --> 00:53:08.280



and that she has to check herself with that special person.94700:53:08.280 --> 00:53:10.360



And it always stayed with me and I do I94800:53:10.440 --> 00:53:12.719



check it with myself too, because you know, you have94900:53:12.760 --> 00:53:14.800



of a podcast, and I have written books now and95000:53:14.840 --> 00:53:17.960



people look up to me and learn from my work,95100:53:18.000 --> 00:53:19.880



and I'm constantly having to check in like I'm not95200:53:19.920 --> 00:53:23.559



a special person. I'm only I'm learning and share it.95300:53:23.559 --> 00:53:26.679



But I consider must have a conduit, you know, but you've.95400:53:26.519 --> 00:53:29.039



Got a teenage daughter, and I'm guessing any time that95500:53:29.119 --> 00:53:31.199



you need to be taken down a pig, you've got95600:53:31.239 --> 00:53:35.480



a daughter who can yeah, do that. But no, you95700:53:35.559 --> 00:53:38.199



make a good point, and I think I think those95800:53:38.239 --> 00:53:41.400



aspects are in all of us. And I guess, well,95900:53:41.440 --> 00:53:43.280



you know, one of the steps in twelve step is96000:53:43.320 --> 00:53:46.599



about learning to recognize you know, they call them defects,96100:53:46.599 --> 00:53:48.960



but those parts of your character that are a bit crappy,96200:53:49.480 --> 00:53:53.440



and instead of trying to pray them away or spiritual96300:53:53.480 --> 00:53:55.840



bypass them, you just have to laugh. You just have96400:53:55.960 --> 00:53:59.480



to accept them and when they come up, just be like, oh, yeah,96500:53:59.480 --> 00:54:01.000



there you go. You know, I want to be the96600:54:01.039 --> 00:54:02.480



best one in the room. I want to be better96700:54:02.519 --> 00:54:05.519



than everyone and kind of forgive it and let it go.96800:54:05.960 --> 00:54:08.280



And that means that when you recognize it in other people,96900:54:08.360 --> 00:54:10.159



you won't hate them so much because you can kind97000:54:10.199 --> 00:54:11.880



of laugh at it in yourself. You can forgive it97100:54:11.880 --> 00:54:14.039



in other people. I mean, and I guess that's what97200:54:14.119 --> 00:54:18.039



the shadow work is. It's recognizing those shadow parts and97300:54:18.159 --> 00:54:21.079



just loving them, you know, not condemning them, loving them,97400:54:21.119 --> 00:54:23.519



and then they kind of they're not so powerful. Anymore.97500:54:24.280 --> 00:54:28.360



Yeah, I think that you've really just hit on, Alice.97600:54:28.400 --> 00:54:30.639



The key to all of this and the key to97700:54:31.000 --> 00:54:32.840



and I guess where we're all trying to get to97800:54:33.440 --> 00:54:39.599



is that complete self acceptance, flaws and all, not trying97900:54:39.639 --> 00:54:44.760



to self improve ourselves away, you know, out of our brokenness,98000:54:44.960 --> 00:54:48.280



but almost and again it's probably sounds a bit waky,98100:54:48.280 --> 00:54:52.280



but like embracing it, like it's okay because the quote98200:54:52.280 --> 00:54:54.800



that I love too and I always butcher it, but98300:54:54.880 --> 00:54:59.760



it is something like, beware the subtle aggression of self improvement.98400:55:00.440 --> 00:55:02.320



Wow, he said that. That's amazing.98500:55:02.400 --> 00:55:05.360



Bob Style I think is his name, but I say98600:55:05.400 --> 00:55:07.480



it all the time to people, beware the subtle aggression98700:55:07.519 --> 00:55:08.480



of self improvement.98800:55:08.719 --> 00:55:10.599



Isn't that just because you never fixed?98900:55:10.679 --> 00:55:13.679



Are you? You never fixed? There's always more, and it's99000:55:13.800 --> 00:55:16.039



just it can be an addiction in itself.99100:55:16.079 --> 00:55:18.320



It's an aggression against the self. Right.99200:55:18.559 --> 00:55:22.920



There's a quote in the book, and it's my teacher Jorge,99300:55:23.039 --> 00:55:27.159



who is Andrew Morenis in real life, and he's quoting99400:55:27.239 --> 00:55:31.440



some really wise guru who says, you know, ring the99500:55:31.440 --> 00:55:35.880



bells that still can ring, forget your perfect offering. There99600:55:35.960 --> 00:55:38.199



is a crack in everything, and that is how the99700:55:38.320 --> 00:55:40.639



light gets in. And I'm like, oh, who's that is99800:55:40.639 --> 00:55:42.480



that room and he's like, no, it's not a Cohen,99900:55:44.039 --> 00:55:47.679



but it's that idea that it's the cracks, the cracks100000:55:47.719 --> 00:55:50.360



in our armor, and that's where vulnerability comes in. That's100100:55:50.400 --> 00:55:53.280



where connection comes in. And I just want to quickly100200:55:53.280 --> 00:55:55.119



say I don't know if this time, but I was100300:55:55.159 --> 00:55:57.320



in a twelve step meeting the other day and they're100400:55:57.320 --> 00:55:59.599



all on zoom. I'm in Melbourne, so we're in lockdown100500:56:00.000 --> 00:56:03.440



meetings on zoom and I was listening to this guy.100600:56:03.519 --> 00:56:06.599



There were people in a various levels of recovery in100700:56:06.639 --> 00:56:08.800



the meeting, and there were some who were like really100800:56:08.840 --> 00:56:11.440



happy and inspiring and some people who are really struggling100900:56:11.519 --> 00:56:14.840



and inspiring. And there was this guy who came in101000:56:15.039 --> 00:56:18.400



and he was just desperate. He was just so flat,101100:56:18.480 --> 00:56:22.000



and he was talking about being cross addicted and he's101200:56:22.079 --> 00:56:24.440



relapsed in this area, and these other things come in101300:56:24.519 --> 00:56:29.719



and blah blah blah, and you know, I identify as cross addiction.101400:56:29.800 --> 00:56:32.519



I've cross addicted. I've got a few things going on.101500:56:33.159 --> 00:56:38.159



And he just was the most inspiring person that I101600:56:38.239 --> 00:56:41.400



connected to all meeting because he was there. He was there.101700:56:41.480 --> 00:56:45.119



He was showing up, he was being honest about his experience,101800:56:45.800 --> 00:56:51.360



he was being honest about how he felt. And something101900:56:51.440 --> 00:56:54.559



about that courage and that honesty to show up as102000:56:54.639 --> 00:56:56.280



you are and just say this is what's going on102100:56:56.320 --> 00:56:59.599



for me just really touched me in that meeting, And102200:56:59.760 --> 00:57:02.360



I think, I guess that's the thing about we want102300:57:02.400 --> 00:57:04.960



to self improve to the point where we no one102400:57:04.960 --> 00:57:07.159



can relate to us, like I can't relate to that102500:57:07.239 --> 00:57:10.400



perfect person. And I think this is the thing about102600:57:10.679 --> 00:57:14.679



the wellness trend, particularly on Instagram, you know, I just102700:57:15.039 --> 00:57:18.400



I cannot relate to the people with the perfect body,102800:57:18.559 --> 00:57:23.400



the airbrushed images, the so called inspirational quotes. And it's102900:57:23.440 --> 00:57:28.679



so weird because one of my former teachers, who is103000:57:28.880 --> 00:57:30.599



like an ex gymnast, so she can do all those103100:57:30.719 --> 00:57:33.079



poses where you put your feet on your head backwards103200:57:33.119 --> 00:57:36.119



on a handstand, you know, that would that I sort103300:57:36.119 --> 00:57:39.039



of cringe my back aches every time I look at them.103400:57:39.320 --> 00:57:43.119



And it was a picture of her doing this impossible103500:57:43.480 --> 00:57:46.280



pose on the edge of the cliff, like if I103600:57:46.440 --> 00:57:49.239



was like, if you moved to an inch, you would103700:57:49.239 --> 00:57:53.039



be in the newspaper. And the quote was something about103800:57:53.480 --> 00:57:56.000



just try your best you know, no one's watching, and103900:57:56.039 --> 00:57:58.599



I'm like, are you so real? Are you kidding me104000:57:58.719 --> 00:58:01.880



right now? Like that is not that is not you know.104100:58:02.719 --> 00:58:07.840



So yeah, I think there's this real hardline that particularly104200:58:07.880 --> 00:58:11.280



maybe influencers, I don't know, you feel that you want104300:58:11.280 --> 00:58:15.519



to be inspiring and aspirational, but at the same time,104400:58:15.880 --> 00:58:18.440



if people can't relate to you, it's really just feeding104500:58:18.440 --> 00:58:22.800



your own ego. It's not actually helping anyone. So that's yeah,104600:58:22.800 --> 00:58:25.159



I guess that's something that that wellness community kind of104700:58:25.159 --> 00:58:25.800



has to look at.104800:58:26.159 --> 00:58:28.480



Yeah, And I think that's a good point too for104900:58:28.519 --> 00:58:30.960



anybody listening. Like, I think it's always good advice that105000:58:31.360 --> 00:58:35.280



no matter how positive somebody's message is, if it gets105100:58:35.320 --> 00:58:38.079



to the point that it's making you feel bad, then105200:58:38.119 --> 00:58:41.480



it's okay to unfollow and no disrespect because somebody else105300:58:41.519 --> 00:58:44.480



will be getting what they need from that person or105400:58:44.760 --> 00:58:46.400



or you know, at a different point.105500:58:47.239 --> 00:58:50.159



But you know, I learned that early on.105600:58:50.679 --> 00:58:53.239



You know, years ago, I directed a client of mine105700:58:53.239 --> 00:58:55.440



to a particular website or a person who was a105800:58:55.480 --> 00:58:57.559



parenting expert, you know, and she had a lot of105900:58:57.639 --> 00:59:01.119



great tools and great advice, and I I found myself106000:59:01.159 --> 00:59:05.840



often referring people to her work, and they often learned106100:59:05.840 --> 00:59:07.719



a lot and they gained a lot. But at one106200:59:07.719 --> 00:59:09.320



point a client came back to me and said, I106300:59:09.360 --> 00:59:12.840



had to unsubscribe from the emails because it was making106400:59:12.880 --> 00:59:15.599



me feel worse about all of my own like because106500:59:15.639 --> 00:59:17.840



I wasn't able to you know, and that's something we106600:59:17.920 --> 00:59:19.639



have to sort of look at in ourselves too. Like,106700:59:20.079 --> 00:59:21.800



I just found it was too positive all the time.106800:59:21.800 --> 00:59:24.960



There was no allowance for the fact that sometimes you're106900:59:25.000 --> 00:59:27.159



not going to get it right. And that's okay. You know,107000:59:27.199 --> 00:59:29.199



you're not always going to be the most present, calm,107100:59:29.239 --> 00:59:30.159



peaceful parent.107200:59:30.559 --> 00:59:33.800



I mean that no teacher, whether you're the student or107300:59:33.840 --> 00:59:36.159



the teacher, you're never going to get that balance right107400:59:36.239 --> 00:59:39.440



for every single person. Some people will find you too positive,107500:59:39.519 --> 00:59:42.280



some people will find you too whatever. So as long107600:59:42.320 --> 00:59:46.440



as you're true to yourself, you kind of can't go wrong. Yeah,107700:59:46.559 --> 00:59:49.159



And it comes back I think to that saying take107800:59:49.159 --> 00:59:51.159



what you like and leave the rest. There are definitely107900:59:51.239 --> 00:59:56.519



teachers who I find have wonderful things to say. Particularly108000:59:56.519 --> 00:59:58.639



the American teachers do this a lot. They're a lot108100:59:58.679 --> 01:00:01.480



glossier than the Australian. I don't know if you find108201:00:01.519 --> 01:00:04.639



that Cass but I find that that glass and that108301:00:04.920 --> 01:00:07.519



perennial upbeatness can kind of get to me after a while.108401:00:07.519 --> 01:00:09.440



And then I just remind myself they any bad, They're108501:00:09.440 --> 01:00:11.960



not wrong. Just take the lessons that they've got that108601:00:12.000 --> 01:00:14.000



I like, and then just leave all the other stuff.108701:00:14.000 --> 01:00:15.360



I don't have to take that onto.108801:00:16.079 --> 01:00:19.320



Yeah, I think that you'd make a great influencer, Alice.108901:00:19.400 --> 01:00:22.000



I think that you really like you should.109001:00:22.519 --> 01:00:25.199



You should start a bad Yoga Instagram account and just109101:00:25.239 --> 01:00:29.719



share your relatable, humorous, hilarious life advice because you have109201:00:29.800 --> 01:00:30.719



so much to share.109301:00:30.880 --> 01:00:31.400



I assume.109401:00:32.360 --> 01:00:34.480



I just want to ask you too.109501:00:35.280 --> 01:00:36.840



There are a lot of people in lockdown who have109601:00:36.920 --> 01:00:42.159



been in lockdown for about seventy gazillion bloody months and109701:00:43.039 --> 01:00:47.400



really struggling. Everybody's over it, and this is a time109801:00:47.440 --> 01:00:50.039



when people's issues can come to the surface. You know,109901:00:50.079 --> 01:00:52.679



we know that alcoholism is on the rise. You know,110001:00:52.719 --> 01:00:54.199



we know that people are stuck at home. If you've110101:00:54.239 --> 01:00:57.719



got some sort of crutch, it's probably you know, out110201:00:57.760 --> 01:00:59.880



of control for a lot of people at the moments.110301:01:00.039 --> 01:01:02.199



So if somebody is listening to this and they're going,110401:01:02.320 --> 01:01:04.280



maybe this is what I need to jump into one110501:01:04.280 --> 01:01:07.320



of these communities where I can get some support. I mean,110601:01:07.360 --> 01:01:09.039



you know, it might be food, it might be alcohol,110701:01:09.079 --> 01:01:12.000



it might be I don't know. Maybe you can't answer110801:01:12.039 --> 01:01:14.440



the question, but how do people go about finding those110901:01:15.320 --> 01:01:17.719



services when they're stuck at home in lockdown?111001:01:18.079 --> 01:01:20.519



Yeah? Look, I think I can only speak from my111101:01:20.519 --> 01:01:24.159



own experience and my experiences with twelve Step. That's where111201:01:24.199 --> 01:01:28.400



I go for all my addiction needs. And I think111301:01:28.440 --> 01:01:31.280



it's just identify what the issue is. You know, is111401:01:31.320 --> 01:01:34.079



it spending too much, is it whatever it is? Is111501:01:34.119 --> 01:01:38.719



it obsession with a person? Is it codependence? And you know,111601:01:38.880 --> 01:01:44.199



just google codependence, anonymous, alcoholics, anonymous, overreader's anonymous. They've got.111701:01:44.320 --> 01:01:46.800



So that's the one blessing of lockdown is there are111801:01:46.880 --> 01:01:50.719



so many meetings online all the time, all day long,111901:01:51.360 --> 01:01:53.760



and just jump into a zoom meeting. You can have112001:01:53.840 --> 01:01:56.639



your camera off and just listen and see if it's112101:01:56.639 --> 01:01:59.679



a few. And I would say, they say, try six meetings.112201:01:59.840 --> 01:02:02.039



I heard six meetings and I was like, there's no way.112301:02:02.559 --> 01:02:05.760



But different meetings have a really different vibe. So if112401:02:05.760 --> 01:02:07.679



you go to one and it just doesn't feel quite right,112501:02:08.400 --> 01:02:10.639



stick it out, go to a few different meetings, give112601:02:10.679 --> 01:02:12.599



it a little while before you decide if it's right112701:02:12.639 --> 01:02:14.960



for you and just show up. All you have to112801:02:14.960 --> 01:02:15.639



do is show up.112901:02:15.960 --> 01:02:18.239



Alice, you are a gem. I'm so happy that we113001:02:18.280 --> 01:02:20.559



had the opportunity. We've been trying to do this since June.113101:02:20.679 --> 01:02:21.719



You're a gym.113201:02:21.519 --> 01:02:24.719



I'm so glad that we finally.113301:02:24.760 --> 01:02:27.760



Made it happen and had an earthquake knockout.113401:02:28.480 --> 01:02:32.840



We've had no no end of challenges, but we're here113501:02:33.360 --> 01:02:35.360



and I am so grateful to you for everything that113601:02:35.360 --> 01:02:37.239



you have shared today. Thank you so much, and please113701:02:37.280 --> 01:02:39.280



everybody go out and buy Bad Yogi. It's a couple113801:02:39.320 --> 01:02:40.719



of years old now, so it's probably not at the113901:02:40.760 --> 01:02:42.679



top of the best seller list anymore, so let's revive114001:02:42.719 --> 01:02:47.199



it get some more sales going because it is so114101:02:47.360 --> 01:02:50.159



worth a read. Thanks Alice Cat, You're a Gym.114201:02:50.280 --> 01:02:52.599



Thank you.114301:02:53.639 --> 01:02:56.840



Alice's memoir, of course, is called Bad Yogi, and I114401:02:56.880 --> 01:02:58.840



hope that by now you've already added it to your114501:02:58.880 --> 01:03:01.639



next online shopping order. Give it to everybody you know114601:03:01.679 --> 01:03:02.639



for a Christmas present.114701:03:02.960 --> 01:03:04.760



You will love it. I know you won't regret it.114801:03:05.400 --> 01:03:08.360



If this episode has raised any issues for you, remember114901:03:08.400 --> 01:03:11.960



you can call the Butterfly Foundation National helpline on one115001:03:12.000 --> 01:03:15.840



eight hundred ed hope that's one eight hundred double three115101:03:16.079 --> 01:03:19.840



four six seven three, or as Alice said, there is115201:03:19.880 --> 01:03:23.840



an online recovery meeting for just about anything, just a115301:03:23.920 --> 01:03:28.599



quick Google search away. It's safe, anonymous, and accessible, of course,115401:03:28.599 --> 01:03:31.400



from the comfort and privacy of your own home. I115501:03:31.440 --> 01:03:34.199



hope you enjoyed this episode of Crappy to Happy. Please115601:03:34.239 --> 01:03:37.440



subscribe on Apple Podcasts by pressing the little plus button115701:03:37.440 --> 01:03:39.880



on the top right, or by hitting the follow button115801:03:39.880 --> 01:03:42.679



if you're listening on Spotify, and of course, please also115901:03:42.760 --> 01:03:45.039



leave us a rating and review, as that does help116001:03:45.119 --> 01:03:47.920



us to reach more listeners. I can't wait to chat116101:03:47.920 --> 01:03:58.039



with you on the next episode of Crappy to Happy.116201:03:58.679 --> 01:03:59.119



Listener