Oct. 3, 2021

Healing from addiction with Alice Williams

Healing from addiction with Alice Williams
Healing from addiction with Alice Williams
Crappy to Happy
Healing from addiction with Alice Williams
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Season 6Women's Health And WellbeingPersonal Growth & HealingCreativity & Self-Expression

Yoga teacher and author, Alice Williams who wrote her book, “Bad Yogi” to be a healing memoir for people who hate healing memoirs. After experiencing a quarter life crisis, Alice embarked on a 2-year yoga teacher training program, immersing herself in the wellness industry while simultaneously entering a 12-step recovery program for an eating disorder.

Alice shares how those two paths complemented each other and where they differed; Cass and Alice discuss what all addictions have in common and Alice shares from her own experience what helped her to finally be free of her own addiction.

CW: This episode includes discussion of disordered eating behaviour. If you’re experiencing an eating disorder or disordered eating, body image or related issues, confidential support is available by calling the National Butterfly Hotline on 1800 ED HOPE (1800 33 4673).


In addition to “Bad Yogi”, Alice also wrote, “Would it kill you to say please?” and she’s currently working on more writing projects so be sure to follow her on social media.


Connect with Alice: www.alice-williams.com

www.instagram.com/alice_v_williams

www.facebook.com/writerAVWilliams

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Connect with Cass:

www.cassdunn.com

Contact Crappy to Happy:

Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
www.crappytohappypod.com
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypod

Transcript
WEBVTT

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A listener production.

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Before we get into today's episode, justa heads up that

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this one does discuss eating disorders in some detail, so

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if this could be triggering for you, you might want

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to give this one a miss. It also contains some

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adult language, so if you have little ears around, you

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might want to listen to this one with headphones. And

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if you or someone you know struggles with disordered eating,

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body image or related issues, you can call the Butterfly

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National Helpline on one eight hundred ed hope. That's one

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eight hundred three three four six seven three. This is

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Crappita Happy and I am your host, Cas Done. I'm

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a clinical and coaching psychologist and mindfulness meditation teacher and

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of course, author of the Crappita Happy books. In this show,

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I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who

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are experts in their field and who have something of

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value to share that will help you feel less crappy

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and more happy. Today, I am delighted to introduce you

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to someone I've had the pleasure of getting to know

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over the past couple of years. Ever since I picked

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up her memoir Bad Yogi in an airport read it,

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loved it, told everybody that I know to read it

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immediately got online to stalk the author on the internet.

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Her name is Alice Williams, and in the book, she

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documents the two years she spent undertaking her yoga teacher

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training while also working through a twelve step eating disorder

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recovery program. The blurb on the back of the book

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describes Bad Yogi as the healing memoir for people who

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hate healing memoirs, and I think that is very accurate.

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It is everything that Alice is which is warm, honest, relatable,

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and honest to God utterly hilarious. It is laugh out

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loud funny. In our conversation today, Alice shares what she

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really thought when she attended her first twelve step meeting,

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how her yoga teacher training complimented the work she was

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doing in recovery meetings, but also some of the problems

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that she sees with the spiritual bypassing that can occur

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in the wellness industry, and how she ultimately overcame her

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binge eating disorder. I'm going to leave the rest of

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it to Alice to talk about in the way only

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Alice can, and I think that by the end of

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the episode you will appreciate Alice Williams just as much

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as I do. Here is my conversation with Alice.

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Alice, Welcome to Crappy to Happy.

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Thank you.

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I first got to know you when you wrote your book,

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a self help memoir called Bad Yogi a couple of

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years ago. Absolutely loved it, have told everybody about it,

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lent it to my mum. She loved it as well,

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and she's not even the self help type, but she

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bloody loved it because it is laugh out loud funny

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while also being very personal and sharing your experience of

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working through and eating disorder. So you went through a

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yoga teacher training program at the same time as you

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were in formal sort of twelve step recovery programs for

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this eating disorder, and you talk about all of those

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experiences and share very openly and vulnerably but also hilariously

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in this book, Bad Yogi. Can you tell me just

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a little bit about what led you to write this book?

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Sure, I you know, you summed it up so well.

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I'd been working in a job in television and had

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a kind of quarter life crisis. It was a pretty

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toxic environment and that led me to well, well, basically

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fall apart. I was pretty suicidal. I realized I had

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to change direction. I did what most middle class white

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girls do, maybe to start a yoga teacher training course,

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and through doing, you know, we did our hours of

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yoga every day, and then through that really intense experience,

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it became pretty clear to me that I had a

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raging eating disorder, I should say. And so then I thought, christ,

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I'm going to have to get treatment for that as well.

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So the book was really the juxtaposition of doing that

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twelve step kind of hot house treatment while doing the

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teacher training, and the two really fed in to each other.

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They're very different approaches to recovery, healing, wellness. And I've

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always been a prolific diary keeper, and as part of

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our teacher training is we had to keep a journal

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about what the practice was, doing, the philosophy, all that

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kind of stuff. And part of twelve step is that

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you journal your feelings and blah blah blah. And I

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got to I guess the end of the process, I mean,

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you never fully recover it to a place where I'd

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felt like a bit more stable and healthy. And I thought,

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you know what, there's so much stuff in here that

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I would have needed to read. I was really starting out,

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because when I started out in recovery, all the books

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were very serious, and I think in self help particularly,

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it feels like you've got to do it the right

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way and you're not doing it the right way and

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these three steps and blah blah, and I thought, I

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just need I need a companion on the journey. I

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need someone to laugh with, someone who's made the mistakes

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same mistakes that I have. And so I kind of

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really I tell people I wrote the book that I

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needed to have. I wrote the book that I needed

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to read while I was doing that recovery. And another

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thing I noticed when I was doing I guess the

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twelve step recovery work and the teacher training was a

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lot of memoirs were very oh, I was so crap,

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and now I'm really perfect now, And that wasn't my experience.

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It was very much two steps forward, one step back.

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And also this idea that one day we're perfectly healed.

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And I mean, I'm still a crazy nut bag, but

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I don't express that through food anymore, thank god. But

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for me, healing was really about embracing the crazy nut

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bagnets rather than becoming this vanilla perfect white bikini wearing

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wellness warrior. So yeah, I kind of wrote the book

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I needed.

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And did a stellar job of that. And I think

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that there is so much to talk about. This is

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why I wanted to talk to you, but it's hard

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to know where to start. You know, you talk about this,

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They're very much about healing, and I was really curious

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to know from your experience, like where did you find

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a similarity I guess or complementary aspects of something pretty

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hardcore and confronting, like twelve steps and something much more

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I'm not going to say light but sort of light

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on like yoga teacher training, and where were they different?

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Like where what was your experience of doing those two

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things at the same time and sort of having that

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real time comparison of these two different approaches to healing

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something that really needed to be healed, like something that

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was a real problem for you.

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That's such a great question and it, I mean, there's

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so many parts to it. I should mention that the

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teacher training that I did, there are so many six

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week courses on the internet or thirty days or you

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go away for a weekend retreat and you come out

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of yoga teacher. This was the most immersive course I

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could find. It was two years full time.

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Wow.

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The first year we were told we would just be

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working on ourselves, we would just be applying the yoke

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to ourselves, and the second year was about learning to

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teach other people. So there was very much this philosophy

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that you couldn't teach until you knew exactly what all

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the practices did to ourselves. So not just us in

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our but obviously meditation, the philosophy prodiama, so you kind

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of had to go through those fires of initiation and

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it was very much I mean, I don't know how

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much people know about yoga, but there's this concept of tapis,

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which is the fire that burns away the impurities, and

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it's this idea of baptism by fire that you really

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have to dive in and lose yourself in order to

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come out ready to help others. And I think that

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was a huge point of crossover and twelve step. You

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know that it was very much about stripping away all

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your illusions, all the things that you used to prop

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yourself up, all the denial and far outcasts. It is

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absolutely horrific. It's messy, it's so painful. And I think

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that's where the two crossover again, is that there's a

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really strong toistered community and being with the same teacher

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trainees for two years, there was that sense of they

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call it sunga, so it's a spiritual community. So there

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was a sense that you're going through this experience and

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you're being really held within a group. And I think

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I've also done a lot of therapy. I think that's

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where I found it really different to therapy because with

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therapy it's just you and you know, I mean, you're

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a therapist, you and the therapist. And while that's terrific

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because you do need to get that nuance of your

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own personal history, in your own personal story, there can

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still be that sense of isolation if I'm the only

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one going through this. So yeah, I guess that's where

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they were similar, but they're also very different. And one

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way that they complimented each other was that so much

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of addiction, and I've been in several different twelve step

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recovery groups still am and so much of addiction is

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physical in that the craving is physical, even if it's

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a process addiction. So process addiction might be things like

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sex shopping to some aspects. There's aspects around food addiction,

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which is process driven.

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There's still physical triggers, and yoga had taught me to

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slow down and notice what was going on in my

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body when I was triggered, and also notice how I

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had trapped trauma within my body and how to release.

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That so that I wasn't used food in this case

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to numb it. So in that sense, I found that

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twelve step would bring up a lot of issues, a

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lot of trauma, a lot of pain, and the yoga

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really helped me be with that physically in my body

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and release it physically. So I think the two go

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absolutely hand in hand.

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I find that really interesting, and that what I find

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especially interesting. I am a therapist. I am also very

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well acquainted with how powerful meditation and yoga can be

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for healing. And I'm also doing yoga teacher training right now.

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So mine is a six month program. It's a two

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hundred hour training, you know, so definitely not a two

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year as intense as what it sounds like.

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The experience was that you had.

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And I think the reason that I was interested to

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ask that question is because I was curious to know.

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I mean, I did a lot. I did life coaching.

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I was a life coach before I became a clinical psychologist,

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and I know that a lot of people came to

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me for coaching who in hindsight possibly could have used therapy,

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you know, but there was almost this avoidance of something

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that was perceived as you know, two confronting or too challenging,

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or not wanting to admit that the problem was as

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big as it was. And almost and this is no

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disrespect to anybody, we will go through our own process

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and our own journey, but you know, almost looking for

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an alternative to the hard work going down that sort

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of coachy wellness kind of path, as an alternative to

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really facing a bigger problem head on. So yeah, that's

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why I was interested to know how you found those

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two experiences, or if you came across that yourself, or

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if you see a bit of that yourself.

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There is absolutely that aspect in the wellness community, and

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I found I still find that quite confronting in that

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one major difference I found with toll Step and wellness was,

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and I don't want to bag anyone, but the app

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sphere I find sometimes in different wellness groups like yoga groups,

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spiritual communities. That kind of stuff can be weirdly oppressive,

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and I find it because there's this pressure to be

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love and light and grateful and high vibes only that

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kind of stuff, and that can kind of when you've

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got a group. I mean, I'm not an expert in

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group dynamics, but it can kind of feed off the

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other people and depending on who's leading the group. I've

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definitely been in retreats where there's been a kind of

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sense that you're letting down the group or you're letting

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down the teacher if you bring in anything to yeah,

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if you're not constantly reinforcing that this is the best

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thing in the world. And I know that people come

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to spiritual communities who do have trauma, and you know,

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maybe that's not the place for them. And look, I

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think a lot of the practices in yoga and wellness

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are about feeling good. It's great, we all want to

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feel good, but they can be a little bit of

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a band aid as well. And this idea of the

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spiritual bypass, whereas if you've got a problem or something

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going on, you just meditate your way through, on your

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way through yoga, your way through, and that will lift

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and release it, but in fact, a lot of our

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then this is only my experience. I'm not a therapist,

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but I find that a lot of our issues really

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do have deep roots and are relational, and unless we

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kind of dig them up and examine them, we're just

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going to repeat them. And the weird thing is that

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if you do. I found that if you do go

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to yoga groups or wellness groups to have that spiritual

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bypass to feel good, you get to a point where

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you can only actually relate to other people in the

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yoga community or the wellness community, and there's this sense

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that you can only breathe the same air as other

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people who are kind of high vibes, only that anyone

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else might pollute you. And I think if you are

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really ground in your own sense of self, with a

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deep understanding of your own issues, your own triggers, and

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an acceptance of those things, it shouldn't matter where you are.

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You will be okay, You will be safe. You know,

253
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there's that saying. It's not about recovery, is not about

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stopping the waves. It's about learning to serve. And I

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think we do ourselves a disservice when we try and

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purify ourselves to the point where we can literally only

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live in an ashram because the rest of the world

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is too harsh. And it's not to say we should

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stay in toxic environments at all, but the aim is

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to be grounded enough that it doesn't affect us as

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deeply as if we're so pure, we can only kind

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of meditate the day away, otherwise we're shattered.

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I know that there will be people listening who, you know,

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as soon as we mention issues with food eating disorder

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that you recovered from an eating disorder, there are plenty

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of people who just want to know, Okay, so what

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did you do and what really worked for you? So

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I was wondering if you would mind. I know you've

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really shared this a lot in the book, but are

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you able to just kind of share for listeners who

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may also have issues with food and eating, like, what

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did your eating disorder kind of look like?

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And what were the what was the key?

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I guess not that there's a magic one, but you know, like,

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what were the keys to you effectively overcoming that? Like

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you said, you don't numb with food anymore, So what

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was the process for you to heal from that?

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Well, I'll talk about I just I want to be

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very clear that I'm not an eating disorder coach or anything,

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so I'll talk about my experience and what worked for me.

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Of course, basically, when I noticed that I had the

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issue with food, I was my issue was I would

283
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binge and then under eat or purge. So I would

284
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have these things like, Okay, it's my period week. Everyone

285
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gets hurry on their period, and then well it's like

286
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a week before my period. I can eat for that week,

287
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and then what's Friday. I can eat on Friday, and

288
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then everyone binges on the weekend. So they're all these excuses,

289
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and I've noticed that the binges were becoming closer and

290
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closer together. And it really kicked off when I was

291
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in that job in TV and it was so awful

292
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and they had this chocolate draw so they routinely wondered

293
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who had been stealing all the shoulge It had been me,

294
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and then I'd you know, eat on the way home,

295
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and then I'd eat to get to work, and then

296
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they eat throughout the day, binge on the weekend, and

297
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then I would purge. I purged through and I don't

298
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want to trigger anyone through this. I purged through exercise

299
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and laxatives, because I actually tried to purge vomiting, but

300
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I couldn't work out the mechanics. Lash and I laughed

301
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because I'm so grateful that I could not work out

302
00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:43.399
the mechanics, because if I had been able to, you know,

303
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God knows where I would have ended up. So yeah,

304
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I would exercise. I was exercise bolimic and laxatives. And

305
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I remember i'd left that job and I was applying

306
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for another job and I just couldn't get through the

307
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job application without cake. So I went and got cake,

308
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and then I went and got some more. And then

309
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when I got on some more and I was sitting

310
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there eating and it would it felt so mechanical. It

311
00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:10.759
was like those moments when you can see yourself outside

312
00:17:10.759 --> 00:17:14.680
your body. There was no pleasure. I just it felt

313
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compulsive and it was just saying, get it down, just

314
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get the food down, get the food down. And I

315
00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:23.519
just had this moment of looking at myself thinking something

316
00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:27.559
else is going on. And I should say I also

317
00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:29.839
had the other side, which was then I would have

318
00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:32.920
days where I would so called eat clean. And I

319
00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:36.680
hate that expression because I never use the word dieting

320
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because everyone knows that dieting doesn't work, but detoxing's okay.

321
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So there was all this language around it that I

322
00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:45.960
could use to deny that I was really just restricting

323
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food and you know what that looks like. It's only

324
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fruits some days, it's not no flat you know, no this,

325
00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:55.559
no that, And that the rules would always change. And

326
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part of what I've realized in recovery is that in

327
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itself is huge part of what an eating disorder, the

328
00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:07.000
role it plays in someone's life is that it's very distracting.

329
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It takes a lot of mental energy to feed that

330
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no pun intended. And one of the things that I

331
00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:16.839
went through in recovery was a huge grief about the

332
00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:20.000
amount of time that I'd lost, like and it still

333
00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:24.119
almost brings me to tears, being so locked up inside

334
00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:27.480
of myself and the disorder that I wasn't progressing in

335
00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:31.559
other areas of my life. Anyway, after this cake binge,

336
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I was meant to go to a yoga class that

337
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night because part of the teacher training is you had

338
00:18:36.920 --> 00:18:39.799
to do a certain a number of hours. And I

339
00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:42.599
went to the yoga class and it was a really

340
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crappy class. The teacher was terrible you know, there were

341
00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:49.880
too many people. So I always think even the worst teacher,

342
00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:53.079
the worst yoga class, can bring about an epiphany. But

343
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I was in the class and I thought, I've just

344
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got to really feel what the food is doing to

345
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my body. If I can really connect to those sensations

346
00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:02.640
in my body, I won't I'll stop eating. And I

347
00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:05.480
tried everything to stop eating, and I thought that mindfulness,

348
00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:08.599
mindfulness will make me stop eating. Sorry, Cass, I know

349
00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:12.359
you love mine. I do, and it did later on,

350
00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:14.319
but I had to go through some stuff first. But

351
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I was doing the class and I heard this voice

352
00:19:17.079 --> 00:19:20.599
in my head and it was my voice, but very different.

353
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I hadn't heard that voice for years, and it was

354
00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:27.440
very gentle, and it just said, you've got no control

355
00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:32.000
over this. You've just got no control. And I just thought,

356
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oh Jesus, and I kept doing the yoga and then

357
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the voice came back and it said, and you need help.

358
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And that's when I was really disgusted because I thought.

359
00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:50.359
I went home and I just thought, this is just

360
00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:54.440
terrible because my image of people with eating disorders was

361
00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:58.319
and look, I am sorry to everyone listening. I'm the

362
00:19:58.359 --> 00:20:00.200
worst person in the world. But my image of people

363
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:03.799
with eating disorders was twelve year old ballerinas. It was

364
00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:07.319
footy wags, it was women who were really vain and skinny.

365
00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:11.319
It was not it was not me. I was much

366
00:20:11.319 --> 00:20:14.640
better than that. I didn't have an eating disorder, but

367
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I couldn't deny that obviously I did. And I got

368
00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:21.279
online to look up sort of how to treat it.

369
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:24.200
And there was a lot of stuff that I instinctively

370
00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:30.079
just reacted against, about body love, body acceptance, all that

371
00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:33.319
kind of stuff. And even though you know, I did

372
00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:36.559
have issues with my body, I always wanted to be skinnier,

373
00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:39.480
all that kind of stuff, it wasn't the huge driver

374
00:20:39.559 --> 00:20:41.920
of it. It was really much more mental. And that

375
00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:45.000
this is where the addiction side came in. That it

376
00:20:45.079 --> 00:20:47.720
was for me, the eating disorder was really about numbing.

377
00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:50.480
And I wasn't aware of any of this until I'd

378
00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:54.200
got into recovery what function it served. But it would

379
00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:56.480
be a comfort, it would be it would help me

380
00:20:56.519 --> 00:20:58.000
when I was happy, it would help me when I

381
00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:02.640
was upset. It was really just about shutting down all feelings.

382
00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:06.759
And so I somehow knew that getting counseling around body

383
00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:13.960
image and mindfully eating food wouldn't help me, And somehow

384
00:21:13.960 --> 00:21:18.759
I stumbled onto some research that suggested that people who

385
00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:22.799
were in group support therapy along the lines of alcoholics anonymous,

386
00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:26.160
but for people with food issues, had a pretty good

387
00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:29.680
recovery rate. And I should just mention there's a few

388
00:21:29.720 --> 00:21:33.960
different twelve step groups for eating disorders, and some of

389
00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:37.759
quite strict, some are less strict, and it's really I

390
00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:40.240
found the one that worked for me. Some not going

391
00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:43.279
to kind of advocate any particular one, but I looked

392
00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:46.119
it up and there was a meeting in a few days.

393
00:21:46.440 --> 00:21:48.839
This is when we still had in person meetings, a

394
00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:52.920
twelve step meeting, and I just thought, I'm going to go,

395
00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:58.279
and I binged until that meeting started, like literally the

396
00:21:58.279 --> 00:22:01.200
moment I got on the track to the meaning and

397
00:22:01.279 --> 00:22:03.000
I had to wear my I say in the book,

398
00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:04.720
I had to wear my fat fat pants because my

399
00:22:04.759 --> 00:22:08.519
normal fat pants fit anymore. And I got to the

400
00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:11.559
meeting and I hated it, Like I don't know if

401
00:22:11.559 --> 00:22:15.000
anyone has ever been in twelve step listening, but there

402
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:18.440
were all these slogans on the wall and all these

403
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:23.240
people smiling at me in this horrible patronizing way, and

404
00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:26.880
you know, the bad coffee and it felt like something

405
00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:31.359
from some sitcom. It was so humiliating and I just

406
00:22:31.400 --> 00:22:36.160
wanted to disappear. They started talking, they did the meeting format.

407
00:22:36.200 --> 00:22:38.160
I thought, my god, this is a cult because it

408
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:41.759
mentioned God. At one point, I thought, I just want

409
00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:43.960
to be here to learn how to deal with this.

410
00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:47.160
I could do this in three days and then I'm

411
00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:49.680
out of here, like you crazy people consider I'm talking,

412
00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:53.720
but I'm not coming back, say arr anyway. And then

413
00:22:53.720 --> 00:22:55.960
one by one people started talking and they told my

414
00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:01.200
story and it was it was and I had that

415
00:23:01.279 --> 00:23:07.000
feeling of when you've lost control in that I was

416
00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:09.640
hearing things that I needed to hear that I didn't

417
00:23:09.640 --> 00:23:12.119
want to hear. I didn't want to recognize myself in

418
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:16.200
these stories. And what was interesting about the eating disorder

419
00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:21.519
the twelve step group I was in, is that it's overreaders,

420
00:23:21.599 --> 00:23:26.839
it's underreaters, it's bollimix, etc. Exix. It doesn't matter what

421
00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:29.039
you look like, what size you are, it's the fact

422
00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:32.200
that you use food, whether that's too much or not

423
00:23:32.359 --> 00:23:36.319
enough or purging. It's all the same kind of behavior,

424
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:41.279
which I really liked because it wasn't because it meant

425
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:44.000
that you could recognize yourself in people, even if their

426
00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:46.599
disorder looked a bit different to yours. And there was

427
00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:49.680
no sense of being better than someone because there one

428
00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:53.119
manifested in weight gain whereas someone else's was in weight loss.

429
00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:57.039
You know, it was all treated as a disorder. And

430
00:23:57.079 --> 00:23:59.680
then it was my turn to share, and I just

431
00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:03.359
I just cried like and I think that was the

432
00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:08.880
first moment of surrender, of letting go, that radical dropping

433
00:24:08.920 --> 00:24:11.839
of your ego because you're out of answers, you've got

434
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:17.400
nothing left. And I left there still I cannot describe

435
00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:19.319
the shame. I thought, no one is ever going to

436
00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:20.960
know that I was in this room. And then I

437
00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:24.640
wrote a book about and it was a slow process

438
00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:28.079
because I did go back the next week because I

439
00:24:28.119 --> 00:24:31.759
was still struggling, and just that sense of recognizing myself,

440
00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:34.079
you know, other people's stories was enough to get me back.

441
00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:36.519
And now I recognize that's a huge part of the

442
00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:40.480
twelve step recovery model, is that recognition in fellow addicts

443
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:44.720
of your story and without judgment, and that you're being

444
00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:48.359
seen without judgment. And there was also what kept me

445
00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:50.799
going back was no one was telling me what to do.

446
00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:52.839
You have to do this, this and this in order

447
00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:55.720
to recover. There was this idea that you take what

448
00:24:55.759 --> 00:24:57.400
you want and then leave the rest, so you come

449
00:24:57.400 --> 00:25:01.279
to it in your own time. And so actually, over

450
00:25:01.319 --> 00:25:04.640
the months, I kept going and I started to slowly

451
00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:08.559
work the program. And I am someone who hates being

452
00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:12.720
told what to do, you know, reacts against authority, really

453
00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:15.480
rebels against that stuff. But I was so desperate, like

454
00:25:15.559 --> 00:25:20.599
they call it the gift of desperation, and there was

455
00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:23.319
I guess there's about there's three different kind of ways

456
00:25:23.319 --> 00:25:25.480
that you work the program. So one way is that

457
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:28.839
you use the tools of recovery, which is using the phone,

458
00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:33.240
talking to other members, journaling, reading the literature, talking to

459
00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:37.480
a sponsor. So when those food urges or any addictive

460
00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:40.599
craving comes up, you've got another tool to replace it.

461
00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:43.359
You're not just sitting there, like they call it, white knuckling,

462
00:25:43.599 --> 00:25:47.839
gripping the chair. And so I started using the tools.

463
00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:50.559
And one of the tools was, and this is specific

464
00:25:50.599 --> 00:25:54.240
to eating disorders, was about identifying your trigger foods, So

465
00:25:54.359 --> 00:25:56.440
the foods that would trigger you to binge. And for me,

466
00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:59.319
there was no question that that was sugar. And I

467
00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:02.799
should just avert here to say because I think this

468
00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:05.960
might be quite common with people with eating disorders, and

469
00:26:06.119 --> 00:26:08.640
some people might get something out of it and other

470
00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:12.559
people won't. But I did go to a dietitian to

471
00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:16.480
get some kind of eating plan, like a basic you know,

472
00:26:16.519 --> 00:26:18.839
you need this much carbohydrate, you need this much whatever.

473
00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:23.200
And she was, you know, she was at a very

474
00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:27.759
reputable place, and she was a self styled you know,

475
00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:32.960
eating disorder teacher, I guess. And she looked at me

476
00:26:33.039 --> 00:26:36.200
with such pity when I told her my story, and

477
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:40.319
a pity that I did not appreciate, I must say.

478
00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:44.559
And she said to me, you know, we want to

479
00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:46.759
get you to a point where you can eat the cake,

480
00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:49.640
where you can eat the pizza, where you can eat

481
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:52.880
all those foods that you are scared of and they

482
00:26:52.920 --> 00:26:55.279
won't buy you. And what I want you to do

483
00:26:55.640 --> 00:26:58.200
is I really want you to go home and when

484
00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:00.000
your partner brings home the pizza, like get in life,

485
00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:03.079
life and fork you know, your best cutlery, your best china,

486
00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:07.640
and really enjoy the pizza. And then and you know,

487
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:10.200
and she'd say, you know, what's life without a slice

488
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:13.039
birthday cake? You know, we want you to intuitively know

489
00:27:13.319 --> 00:27:15.640
what your body needs, and if you let there's no

490
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:19.319
nothing off limit. And man, I was on a free

491
00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:22.359
for all after that. So the next time my partner

492
00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:26.039
bought home pizza, I was just like, yep, this is great,

493
00:27:27.400 --> 00:27:32.200
and I intuitively ate, you know, the blueberries and blueberry muffins,

494
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:35.039
and then intuitively needed a packet of chips to kind

495
00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:38.480
of to top it off, and then intuitively needed a coke.

496
00:27:39.079 --> 00:27:41.519
And I don't mean to like ridicule it, because I

497
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:44.160
do think intuitive eating works for some people. But my

498
00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:47.680
intuition was off, Like my intuition was off like a

499
00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:50.359
heroin addicts, like, you know, I really could go it

500
00:27:50.599 --> 00:27:54.759
go something right now. So I recognized that I had

501
00:27:54.799 --> 00:27:58.200
to stop. I had to use another tool.

502
00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:03.480
So my twelve program had the idea that you would

503
00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:06.359
create a food plan that worked for you. They don't

504
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:08.880
tell you what to eat, but they do say, identify

505
00:28:08.920 --> 00:28:10.440
your binge foods and that's it.

506
00:28:10.519 --> 00:28:13.839
You just don't have them. So I cut out sugar,

507
00:28:14.359 --> 00:28:19.319
and definitely there was withdrawals. Definitely there was you know,

508
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:21.680
that was a rough road, but you use the tools

509
00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:24.839
of recovery to kind of get through. And I mean,

510
00:28:24.839 --> 00:28:26.920
I would like to say that I recovered straight away,

511
00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:30.119
but there there were slips along the way. I didn't

512
00:28:30.119 --> 00:28:33.799
get there overnight. And this was where having a sponsor

513
00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:36.279
really helped, because she would say in the past, if

514
00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:39.960
I'd binge or if I'd break a diet, I would

515
00:28:39.960 --> 00:28:41.960
just say, oh, well, screw it, I'm just going to

516
00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:45.720
go go all out and then tomorrow I will start again.

517
00:28:46.599 --> 00:28:49.799
And she just kept saying. She used a metaphor of

518
00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:52.359
a boat. If you find yourself drifting out from shore,

519
00:28:52.759 --> 00:28:55.519
just start rolling back, like you don't have a tantrum,

520
00:28:55.720 --> 00:28:58.160
you don't jump in the water, You just start rolling back.

521
00:28:58.200 --> 00:28:59.920
So every time I would break and have a bin

522
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:04.000
or have a bite of a trigger food, it was

523
00:29:04.039 --> 00:29:07.960
about cutting the drama, cutting the guilt, the shame cycle,

524
00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:11.440
which would just lead you further in. I'd make a

525
00:29:11.480 --> 00:29:14.960
phone call, let it go, and just come straight back

526
00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:20.240
to doing the next right thing, the next meal. And slowly,

527
00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:24.480
very very gently, I started to find what they call abstinence,

528
00:29:24.599 --> 00:29:28.480
which is abstinence in eating disorder recovery is abstaining from

529
00:29:28.519 --> 00:29:32.720
your particular compulsive food behaviors. And that's different for everyone.

530
00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:38.039
And so I think traditional eating treatment and eating disorder

531
00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:40.400
treatment that might be where it would end. But with

532
00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:44.799
the twelve steps. That was just the first step. There

533
00:29:44.839 --> 00:29:49.480
are eleven other steps, and the other steps really dealt

534
00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:56.400
with the psychological, mental, and spiritual aspects of why we eat.

535
00:29:56.680 --> 00:30:01.160
And it's funny because twelve steps not a twelve step guru.

536
00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:04.599
But the first step is different in all the programs.

537
00:30:04.599 --> 00:30:07.279
It might be unpowerless over food, I'm powerless over sex,

538
00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:10.240
I'm powerless over drugs, But the rest of the steps

539
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:12.319
are the same for everyone. And that is because I

540
00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:16.079
think addiction works in the same way for everyone. Really,

541
00:30:16.759 --> 00:30:20.200
And a huge principle in the twelve step program is

542
00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:24.799
that it is a spiritual disconnection, and so it mentions God,

543
00:30:24.920 --> 00:30:27.039
but it really can be anything. It doesn't have to

544
00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:31.440
be like a Christian God or something outside of yourself.

545
00:30:31.640 --> 00:30:35.680
For me, often it's just my intuition, but that sense

546
00:30:35.759 --> 00:30:40.640
of something greater than just you. So it's really it's

547
00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:43.519
not a religious program. It's just about that sense of

548
00:30:44.079 --> 00:30:48.000
defining and connecting to something that you feel can help

549
00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:50.799
you along the way. Yeah, And then it gets in

550
00:30:50.920 --> 00:30:54.039
the different steps get it into different aspects of our

551
00:30:54.079 --> 00:30:56.640
lives and the way we relate to ourselves and to others.

552
00:30:57.200 --> 00:31:03.519
And I found it intense, profound and I just could

553
00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:05.599
not have done that without the support of the other

554
00:31:05.640 --> 00:31:10.039
people in the community. And one thing that I often

555
00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:13.480
thought early on was if I could not have this

556
00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:15.920
eating disorder and not come to this group, but I

557
00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:18.279
do it, And at first the answer is always absolutely,

558
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:21.440
And now I can't believe I'm saying I'm actually really

559
00:31:21.480 --> 00:31:26.039
grateful for having had it because it led me somewhere

560
00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:30.039
which has completely changed every single aspect of my life.

561
00:31:30.119 --> 00:31:33.960
It's made every aspect of my life so much richer,

562
00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:36.839
and I would not have got there without hitting that

563
00:31:36.920 --> 00:31:39.599
rock bottom. That was a very long answer to a

564
00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:40.480
very short question.

565
00:31:40.960 --> 00:31:43.279
I feel like we could wrap up this podcast now

566
00:31:43.319 --> 00:31:45.359
and that would be a great episode because you've just

567
00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:49.119
hit on every single thing that I know. That's like

568
00:31:49.240 --> 00:31:52.359
so many questions that people would ask you have just

569
00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:55.079
answered them all, and I just wanted to say so

570
00:31:55.240 --> 00:31:58.640
going back, I really appreciate you know. I don't think

571
00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:01.319
you need to apologize. I think it's really important that

572
00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:04.759
you are so honest about your own precons you know,

573
00:32:04.839 --> 00:32:08.599
your own personal biases and the preconceived ideas you have

574
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:11.400
about people with eating disorders, you know, because I think

575
00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:16.400
everybody has those judgments, and like that's what gets in

576
00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:20.000
the way. And that's the whole point, isn't it. Like

577
00:32:20.039 --> 00:32:22.039
that's why you wrote the book. It's because you share

578
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:26.200
every thought that you have, which other people don't want

579
00:32:26.200 --> 00:32:29.880
to admit that they have. And that's that's the past. Like,

580
00:32:29.960 --> 00:32:32.759
that's what is so helpful. You're so relatable.

581
00:32:33.519 --> 00:32:35.920
Cas. It's so funny that you should say that because

582
00:32:35.920 --> 00:32:38.400
one of my best friends is the author Kate Holden,

583
00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:41.799
who wrote In My Skin, and Kate was on heroin

584
00:32:41.839 --> 00:32:45.359
for five years and worked as a prostitute sex worker,

585
00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:50.160
and she talks about that in her story. And Kate,

586
00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:52.200
I just have to say it. She is cool, Like

587
00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:55.279
she is fucking cool, Like she looks cool. She's got

588
00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:58.759
these cool stories about what she used to do on drugs,

589
00:32:58.839 --> 00:33:02.359
you know. And I'm over here like, oh, I can't

590
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:08.519
handle my bars. And there's a lot of people, there's

591
00:33:08.519 --> 00:33:10.200
a lot of people in twelve Step who are what

592
00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:13.720
they call cross addicted. So you've got different addictions. And

593
00:33:14.839 --> 00:33:17.799
I have other things as well. And I found that

594
00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:22.119
once one addiction goes it goes into recovery. Often other

595
00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:24.759
things might pop up. So it might be shopping, it

596
00:33:24.839 --> 00:33:27.720
might be sex, it might be something else, which is

597
00:33:27.759 --> 00:33:29.960
where I guess the program helps because it helps you

598
00:33:30.039 --> 00:33:32.920
recognize when that's happening and kind of come back to yourself.

599
00:33:33.480 --> 00:33:35.759
But yeah, so there's lots of cross addicted people in

600
00:33:35.799 --> 00:33:39.319
the meetings, and I just remember this one guy I

601
00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:42.480
was in a food meeting and it was his laborer,

602
00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:47.319
like he was wearing his fluo vest and he's like, oh, man,

603
00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:50.799
you know, I'm in NA, which is narcotics Anonymous for

604
00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:55.680
like smack. And I got to say, like, this is humiliating,

605
00:33:55.799 --> 00:33:57.839
Like I feel cool when I go to those meetings,

606
00:33:57.880 --> 00:34:02.200
but man, coming to this one, Oh, it's just the worst.

607
00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:06.720
And I remember reading an account of someone who was

608
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:10.960
in rehab in with IT in England, the Priori, the

609
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:13.559
one that Kate Moss went to anyway, and she said

610
00:34:13.639 --> 00:34:17.239
there's like a real hierarchy in rehab of like who's

611
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:20.079
the coolest, and at the top is the drugs, and

612
00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:23.199
then there's sex, and then there's alcohol, and then way

613
00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:25.719
at the bottom is like the eating disorder patients and

614
00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:30.639
everyone's like, oh man, what do you even doing? So yeah,

615
00:34:31.159 --> 00:34:34.159
I feel deeply uncol having this is my issue cast

616
00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:36.599
but having said that, I'm very grateful.

617
00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:39.480
It's not drugs, and I, you know, I just also

618
00:34:39.480 --> 00:34:41.079
wanted to highlight that you said that you went to

619
00:34:41.119 --> 00:34:42.960
this meeting and it was like oh my god, and

620
00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:45.719
the slogans and the people and like this is not

621
00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:48.960
for me. And it's like, I think that's what most

622
00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:51.559
people would think, like how most people would feel, and

623
00:34:51.559 --> 00:34:56.800
that's what stops people from showing up, right, And but

624
00:34:57.440 --> 00:34:59.360
for you to be able to share that you went

625
00:34:59.639 --> 00:35:01.599
and what you you got from it and you went back,

626
00:35:02.199 --> 00:35:05.519
you know, it's it's amazing, Like it really is amazing.

627
00:35:05.719 --> 00:35:08.199
There is so much that so many people can relate to.

628
00:35:08.599 --> 00:35:10.840
And I wanted to point out too, like the point

629
00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:13.559
that you make. And I still think I feel like

630
00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:15.639
this is obvious, but I feel like a lot of

631
00:35:15.679 --> 00:35:20.320
people still don't necessarily get this, that all addiction is

632
00:35:20.360 --> 00:35:20.840
the same.

633
00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:23.159
It's like if it's food or.

634
00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:26.039
Alcohol or shopping or eggs or gambling, like it's all

635
00:35:26.079 --> 00:35:30.000
serving the same purpose. And I think there is that

636
00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:35.559
kind of I don't really have a problem because because

637
00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:38.760
I'm doing this, it's you know, it's like it's that

638
00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:43.320
hierarchy or if you're drinking too much, you've got a problem.

639
00:35:44.119 --> 00:35:46.760
You know, if you're addicted to alcohol, there's a problem.

640
00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:49.280
But if you're addicted to work, if you're addicted to

641
00:35:49.360 --> 00:35:52.960
marathon running, that's all fine, Like that's all really good,

642
00:35:53.880 --> 00:35:55.960
do you know. Like I think there's that as well,

643
00:35:55.960 --> 00:35:59.159
like these like socially acceptable addictions. But it's about that

644
00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:02.400
radical self honesty about why am I doing this?

645
00:36:03.360 --> 00:36:05.760
And I think that's I mean, the first step is

646
00:36:05.800 --> 00:36:08.960
really about piercing that denial. And I had huge layers

647
00:36:08.960 --> 00:36:11.719
of denial because I looked normal on the outside. And

648
00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:15.159
I think the kind of eating disorder I had is

649
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:19.920
incredibly common, where it's binging, sometimes under eating, sometimes not

650
00:36:20.039 --> 00:36:22.679
throwing up, because it's throwing up is often like such

651
00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:25.840
a huge obvious sign to yourself that something's wrong. But

652
00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:28.679
I was. I managed to keep a normal weight. I

653
00:36:28.719 --> 00:36:33.400
even looked probably healthy, because those behaviors were balancing themselves out.

654
00:36:33.639 --> 00:36:36.000
And I would go to meetings and see people who

655
00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:41.000
were obese or anorexic, and I'm not that sorry. Therefore

656
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:44.239
I'm fine. And I think there's a lot of high

657
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:48.360
functioning addicts out there, and that's in a way, you know,

658
00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:51.199
you're not lying in the gutter, so you think, oh,

659
00:36:51.239 --> 00:36:56.079
I'm fine, But only you can know how much it's

660
00:36:56.119 --> 00:36:59.320
affecting you, and how much it's affecting your relationships, and

661
00:36:59.320 --> 00:37:03.440
how persistent those thoughts are. And I think the mental aspect,

662
00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:06.920
how much it's intruding, is a huge thing. And look,

663
00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:08.960
no one wants to have an addiction, No one wants

664
00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:13.280
to have this stuff. But it's that sense of desperation

665
00:37:13.599 --> 00:37:16.960
that will you know, we respond to pain. That's that's

666
00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:19.440
what will often drive you there. And look, I often

667
00:37:19.599 --> 00:37:22.039
you often see people in their first meeting and you

668
00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:28.039
just I recognize myself so much that look of horror

669
00:37:28.199 --> 00:37:32.039
and shock and like, who are these crazy people? And

670
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:33.559
you just want to give them a big hug, but

671
00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:35.920
you don't want to like overwhelm them, like welcome to

672
00:37:35.960 --> 00:37:39.239
the club. And look, you just hope they come back,

673
00:37:39.559 --> 00:37:42.440
and often they do. And it's it's often the people

674
00:37:42.440 --> 00:37:45.079
who surprise you who really stick with the program and

675
00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:48.480
have the biggest transformations. And they they have an expression

676
00:37:48.559 --> 00:37:51.360
which is don't stop till the miracle happens, which is

677
00:37:51.440 --> 00:37:53.960
it gets it does get harder before it gets easy

678
00:37:53.960 --> 00:37:57.199
in it, but don't give it up, because you know

679
00:37:57.320 --> 00:37:59.639
recovery is just it is a miracle. I know, I

680
00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:02.079
sound way cap it is such a miracle as a gift.

681
00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:09.440
I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the

682
00:38:09.480 --> 00:38:12.400
benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are

683
00:38:12.519 --> 00:38:15.239
enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe

684
00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:17.599
so that you get notified when you epps drop and

685
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:20.119
head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen

686
00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:30.199
and leave us a rating and review. So some of

687
00:38:30.199 --> 00:38:31.880
the questions I had for you, Alice, which you have

688
00:38:32.079 --> 00:38:36.719
probably already answered, I think the things that typically put

689
00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:43.639
people off something like a twelve step program, quite apart

690
00:38:43.639 --> 00:38:46.719
from the stigma of it, to be perfectly honest, like,

691
00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:52.559
oh God, I don't need that. Number one, the God

692
00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:55.039
is a big thing. Got to hand everything over to God.

693
00:38:55.960 --> 00:38:58.320
And I think number two, or maybe if at number one,

694
00:38:58.480 --> 00:39:05.000
is that admitting that you are powerless over whatever. And

695
00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:07.840
I know that you're very honest about all of that,

696
00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:10.880
your experience of that. So are you able to just

697
00:39:10.920 --> 00:39:12.519
talk a little bit more about how you were able

698
00:39:12.559 --> 00:39:15.159
to reconcile that for yourself to be able to continue

699
00:39:15.159 --> 00:39:15.760
on that path?

700
00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:20.079
Absolutely well, I guess I'll address the powerlessness first and

701
00:39:20.119 --> 00:39:23.920
then the god stuff just briefly. It's only when you

702
00:39:23.960 --> 00:39:26.239
try and give something up that you realize how much

703
00:39:26.280 --> 00:39:29.119
it's got a hold on you. So that expression I

704
00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:31.800
can stop anytime, I like, well, why don't you just

705
00:39:31.880 --> 00:39:36.400
try and see how that goes. So when I came

706
00:39:36.440 --> 00:39:39.719
into recovery, I was really in denial that I was

707
00:39:39.800 --> 00:39:42.119
as bad as everyone else, and then when I tried

708
00:39:42.159 --> 00:39:45.599
to stop, I couldn't. And in terms of that moment

709
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:49.880
of powerlessness, I remember, I've been resisting the second step,

710
00:39:49.880 --> 00:39:52.559
which is about God. And I do just want to

711
00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:55.400
clarify again the God one is just a word. It

712
00:39:55.400 --> 00:39:58.400
can be anything. It's not that you have to believe

713
00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:01.880
in God or anything. And I remember i'd just come

714
00:40:01.880 --> 00:40:04.360
home from the hospital my dad was really sick. I'd

715
00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:07.800
been in program, in the recovery program for months, I'd

716
00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:10.079
been in yoga teacher training for months, and I just

717
00:40:10.119 --> 00:40:13.000
had another bingch And I knew everything about dieting, in

718
00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:16.880
nutrition and mindfulness, and I'd use the tools and nothing

719
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:21.599
could stop me from keeping going with eating and nothing

720
00:40:21.599 --> 00:40:24.000
could stop me from the plan to purge it all

721
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:27.360
the next day, and I remember just lying on the

722
00:40:27.400 --> 00:40:31.039
couch and looking up at the ceiling and just feeling defeated.

723
00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:34.039
And I just thought, I don't give a shit. I've

724
00:40:34.039 --> 00:40:38.039
got nothing. I can't solve this. There has got to

725
00:40:38.119 --> 00:40:42.480
be something else out there because I cannot do this

726
00:40:42.599 --> 00:40:44.960
on my own. And if there is something else out there,

727
00:40:45.039 --> 00:40:48.079
will fucking hurry up and identify yourself? Can I need help?

728
00:40:49.039 --> 00:40:52.559
And look, that's when I started looking at the second step,

729
00:40:52.599 --> 00:40:55.239
which was about came to believe that a power greater

730
00:40:55.280 --> 00:40:58.400
than ourselves could restore us to sanity. And sanity is

731
00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:02.440
just how, you know, not being crazy around food, eating

732
00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:06.480
sensibly all that stuff. And I had a sponsor, and

733
00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:10.960
I grew up the most atheist of atheists, Like atheism

734
00:41:11.079 --> 00:41:13.280
was our religion. My family thought that if you believed

735
00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:15.400
in God, it was because there was something deeply wrong

736
00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:17.199
with you. And now I realize that's true. There was

737
00:41:17.239 --> 00:41:19.880
something deeply wrong with me. Then you need a hand

738
00:41:19.880 --> 00:41:22.960
to hold and you know, you poor little thing. And

739
00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:26.119
so I sort of had a disgust about that idea,

740
00:41:26.159 --> 00:41:29.320
but I had that visceral memory of lying on the couch,

741
00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:31.239
and I just thought, I've got to try something because

742
00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:33.280
I'm going to die, like I'm going to commit suicide.

743
00:41:33.320 --> 00:41:36.639
I'm going to something's going to happen. And my sponsor

744
00:41:36.760 --> 00:41:40.840
just made really gentle suggestions. She said, write a job

745
00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:44.119
description of what you would want a higher power to

746
00:41:44.199 --> 00:41:46.480
be and do in your life, and then act as

747
00:41:46.519 --> 00:41:50.039
if that exists. And I thought, well, that's ridiculous, but

748
00:41:50.239 --> 00:41:52.440
I did what she suggested, and I wanted it to

749
00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:55.280
be loving. I wanted it to be, you know, working

750
00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:58.840
in my favor. I wanted it to be forgiving of

751
00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:02.880
when I was imperfect. And that's a huge part of

752
00:42:02.920 --> 00:42:05.760
my sense of a higher power now is that I'm

753
00:42:05.800 --> 00:42:09.360
not judged. I loved flaws and all even more for

754
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:12.360
my flaws because I was judging myself so much for

755
00:42:12.440 --> 00:42:16.880
my flaws. And I just kind of started acting as

756
00:42:16.920 --> 00:42:20.519
if that existed. So when I wasn't sure, I would

757
00:42:20.639 --> 00:42:22.800
about what to do. I would think, okay, so if

758
00:42:22.840 --> 00:42:25.719
I had this higher power, what might that suggestion be?

759
00:42:26.519 --> 00:42:28.760
And it would be something like go for a walk,

760
00:42:29.119 --> 00:42:33.000
you know, or just do the first five minutes. And

761
00:42:33.079 --> 00:42:37.119
one acronism acronym that people have for God in program

762
00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:40.000
is good orderly direction. So it's not God, it's just

763
00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:44.239
good orderly direction, the next right thing. So I did

764
00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:46.320
that and I kind of, you know, acted as if

765
00:42:46.360 --> 00:42:51.639
this thing existed, and cas like, I just don't know

766
00:42:51.679 --> 00:42:54.880
how to say this without sounding really strange. But my

767
00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:57.719
life just started to change and I couldn't explain it.

768
00:42:58.239 --> 00:43:01.920
Opportunities came out of nowhere. People were behaving differently. I

769
00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:05.840
was behaving differently. My thoughts started to be different, and

770
00:43:05.880 --> 00:43:09.559
I couldn't it wasn't coming from me, like I was

771
00:43:09.599 --> 00:43:11.920
doing what they call the footwork. The footwork is where

772
00:43:11.960 --> 00:43:14.000
you do your part, so you make the list, you

773
00:43:14.039 --> 00:43:16.760
act as if you make the phone calls. But then

774
00:43:16.840 --> 00:43:19.559
it was like something else was kind of stepping in

775
00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:23.239
to meet me halfway and doing the things for me

776
00:43:23.800 --> 00:43:26.000
that as they say that you can't do for yourself.

777
00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:29.760
And look, I don't know if God exists. I don't know.

778
00:43:29.840 --> 00:43:31.400
I won't know till I die and I meet them

779
00:43:31.480 --> 00:43:33.800
or don't meet them. But I do know that when

780
00:43:33.880 --> 00:43:36.440
I'm willing to be open to that and I do

781
00:43:36.559 --> 00:43:41.559
my share far out, my life is a million times better,

782
00:43:41.599 --> 00:43:45.199
like indescribably better. And so I think because I had

783
00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:47.960
that evidence of working. Oh and I should say, my

784
00:43:48.079 --> 00:43:52.239
eating disorder started to clear up as if on its own,

785
00:43:52.320 --> 00:43:57.119
it wasn't It wasn't hard, like it wasn't like fighting

786
00:43:57.159 --> 00:43:58.840
it every day no, I'm not going to eat that. No,

787
00:43:58.880 --> 00:44:01.880
I'm not going to eat that. Like it was like

788
00:44:02.639 --> 00:44:06.760
the cravings started to be lifted. And it didn't happen overnight.

789
00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:09.880
It happened very slowly. But I just noticed that I

790
00:44:09.920 --> 00:44:13.599
wasn't thinking about food. And it was like when you

791
00:44:13.639 --> 00:44:16.880
can breathe after being in a stuffy room for years

792
00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:21.079
and you can suddenly feel that fresh air. And yeah,

793
00:44:21.159 --> 00:44:23.559
I couldn't explain it. And it was really funny because

794
00:44:23.599 --> 00:44:25.719
then I started to think I was this really spiritual

795
00:44:25.760 --> 00:44:31.679
person who loved everyone and became such an insufferable wanka

796
00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:33.960
about the whole thing. And I've got to tell everybody

797
00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:40.159
the good news. And I've since calmed down a lot

798
00:44:40.199 --> 00:44:44.360
about that. It's a much more personal relationship. And I

799
00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:47.719
will add as well, like I think that if you

800
00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:52.400
have addiction, it never fully goes away. It certainly hasn't

801
00:44:52.440 --> 00:44:55.480
for me in the sense that I am in recovery

802
00:44:55.480 --> 00:44:57.880
from an eating disorder. But I still have thoughts that

803
00:44:57.920 --> 00:45:02.599
come up around certain things, and they say that, you know,

804
00:45:02.679 --> 00:45:06.679
our recovery is contingent on that daily spiritual connection, and

805
00:45:06.760 --> 00:45:09.280
so for me, it's a daily practice of connecting to

806
00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:13.280
my higher power through meditation, and you know, sometimes I

807
00:45:13.280 --> 00:45:15.400
don't believe in God, I disbelieve in my intuition, and

808
00:45:15.440 --> 00:45:18.199
other times I believe in you know, and it doesn't matter.

809
00:45:18.320 --> 00:45:21.440
It really doesn't. No one's going to tell you what

810
00:45:21.519 --> 00:45:24.239
it should be. And I think that's actually really want

811
00:45:24.280 --> 00:45:29.000
to make this point. I think that that's one interesting

812
00:45:29.239 --> 00:45:32.840
correlation between twelve Step and yoga is I found in

813
00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:35.320
twelve Step one of the things that kept me going

814
00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:38.239
is that there's no hierarchy. There's no leader. There are

815
00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:41.960
the founders of AA who wrote the literature and I

816
00:45:41.960 --> 00:45:46.599
guess the program originated with but there's no head person.

817
00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:50.719
The meeting leaders change all the time, so there's not

818
00:45:50.840 --> 00:45:53.719
this cult of personality. And I find that really attractive

819
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:55.760
because it's no one's going to get off on me

820
00:45:56.400 --> 00:45:58.960
doing the program. No one wants to take my power

821
00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:04.480
by me worship them. Whereas in yoga, I found culturally

822
00:46:04.519 --> 00:46:07.519
it lent itself very much to someone being the head

823
00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:11.760
of certain practices, someone saying this is how you do it.

824
00:46:12.480 --> 00:46:16.440
And I found that very very off putting. And I'm

825
00:46:16.440 --> 00:46:19.239
always quite I certainly have teachers who I look up to,

826
00:46:20.239 --> 00:46:25.280
but I did see cases of abuse and experienced cases

827
00:46:25.280 --> 00:46:28.679
where people would try to I don't know how to

828
00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:31.840
put this, get me to hand something over to them

829
00:46:31.960 --> 00:46:37.599
about myself in the name of spiritual progress and far out.

830
00:46:37.719 --> 00:46:41.639
It just it's pretty pretty horrific that that can happen.

831
00:46:41.719 --> 00:46:44.800
And I think it's especially horrific because people do go

832
00:46:44.840 --> 00:46:49.159
to wellness communities when they're feeling vulnerable, and you really

833
00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:51.039
do I wanted someone to tell me what to do,

834
00:46:51.119 --> 00:46:53.920
and I would do it. You know. I was right

835
00:46:54.039 --> 00:46:57.039
for that kind of abuse. And there's a chapter in

836
00:46:57.079 --> 00:47:01.960
the book where I go to I don't name it,

837
00:47:02.039 --> 00:47:05.480
but it's the Satchananda Ashram, and I was writing an

838
00:47:05.559 --> 00:47:08.719
article for Yoga magazine about sexual sexual abuse within the

839
00:47:08.760 --> 00:47:13.920
yoga community. And I found out afterwards that the Royal

840
00:47:13.960 --> 00:47:18.880
Commission into Child Sexual Abuse in Institutions had had submissions

841
00:47:18.920 --> 00:47:22.119
from people who'd been abused by Satchernanda and by people

842
00:47:22.159 --> 00:47:25.320
who worked at the ashram. And while I was there,

843
00:47:25.519 --> 00:47:27.400
I didn't know that at the time, but I remember

844
00:47:27.440 --> 00:47:33.280
having this really uncomfortable feeling of oppression and worship that

845
00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:38.480
you had to suppress your aspects of yourself to give

846
00:47:38.519 --> 00:47:41.079
over to the leaders of the ashram. And there were

847
00:47:41.440 --> 00:47:46.159
even things like women weren't allowed to wear clothing. Police

848
00:47:46.239 --> 00:47:48.079
were out in force that you weren't allowed to wear

849
00:47:48.119 --> 00:47:50.880
certain things lest you inspire lust and all that kind

850
00:47:50.920 --> 00:47:54.280
of thing. And so it wasn't about people should maybe

851
00:47:54.360 --> 00:47:56.280
just not try and have sex with someone if they

852
00:47:56.280 --> 00:47:59.400
don't want to. It was about you shouldn't provoke lust

853
00:47:59.480 --> 00:48:03.079
by wearing a pair of leggings. And then I read

854
00:48:03.159 --> 00:48:05.679
that the founders of the ashram had been cherry picking

855
00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:09.559
young girls anyway. So it was that sense of not owning,

856
00:48:10.719 --> 00:48:13.639
that sense that you had to surrender a part of

857
00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:17.599
yourself for spiritual advancement. And I did an interview with

858
00:48:17.679 --> 00:48:20.920
some people who'd left the Shiva Yoga Ashram, which is

859
00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:24.920
another ashram in Melbourne where the leader has been accused

860
00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:27.599
of sexual abuse and is still running it, I think.

861
00:48:28.239 --> 00:48:31.079
And one of the survivors said something to me really interesting.

862
00:48:31.280 --> 00:48:35.039
She said, and I just if anyone takes one thing

863
00:48:35.239 --> 00:48:38.119
from this podcast, I hope they take this. I will

864
00:48:38.159 --> 00:48:41.039
never ever trust someone who claims to be closer to

865
00:48:41.079 --> 00:48:44.159
God than I am. And it's not just God, it's

866
00:48:44.199 --> 00:48:46.719
someone claiming to have the truth and they can show you.

867
00:48:47.239 --> 00:48:48.920
And sure there are going to be teachers who can

868
00:48:48.920 --> 00:48:51.159
teach you meditation. There are going to be people who

869
00:48:51.199 --> 00:48:54.840
can give you tools to advance you. But if someone

870
00:48:54.880 --> 00:48:57.519
has got is a bit tighter than God, then you

871
00:48:57.559 --> 00:49:00.400
are with God than you are. That is fucking walkshit

872
00:49:00.440 --> 00:49:04.400
and run a mile, because you can't get closer than

873
00:49:04.440 --> 00:49:07.239
you already are. We just can't already always see it.

874
00:49:07.800 --> 00:49:12.440
Yeah, good advice, And you're so right. You raise a

875
00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:16.000
really good point about wellness communities. And this is not

876
00:49:16.119 --> 00:49:19.039
like I'm all for wellness communities. I'm all for well

877
00:49:19.079 --> 00:49:23.159
I guess I'm all for people wanting to better themselves

878
00:49:23.199 --> 00:49:25.519
and look at themselves and be you know self compassion

879
00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:28.760
and mindfulness and meditation and be the best version of yourself.

880
00:49:28.760 --> 00:49:29.719
But you're quite right.

881
00:49:29.920 --> 00:49:34.639
It does attract sometimes people who are vulnerable and who

882
00:49:34.719 --> 00:49:38.199
are looking for a guru. And it attracts people who

883
00:49:38.199 --> 00:49:42.119
want to be a guru and who aren't always the

884
00:49:42.400 --> 00:49:48.199
most open hearted, who are dangerous potentially characters. I listened

885
00:49:48.199 --> 00:49:49.760
to a podcast I don't know if you've ever heard

886
00:49:49.760 --> 00:49:52.960
of it called Guru. I'm pretty sure it's a wondering podcast,

887
00:49:53.079 --> 00:49:58.039
and it was about a self styled personal development leader

888
00:49:58.239 --> 00:50:00.400
running seminars and attracted a big following.

889
00:50:00.440 --> 00:50:01.320
You know, we know many of them.

890
00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:04.000
They're all out there who ended up having somebody die

891
00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:08.079
in a makeshift sort of sweat lodge, basically boiled alive

892
00:50:08.199 --> 00:50:11.079
in a sweat lodge because they were pushing themselves, you

893
00:50:11.079 --> 00:50:14.159
know that go into the fire, you know, and burn

894
00:50:14.199 --> 00:50:16.599
off all of your impurities and all of the rest

895
00:50:16.639 --> 00:50:20.239
of it quite literally and actually died. And he is

896
00:50:20.320 --> 00:50:23.840
still He's still out there preaching and practicing and taking

897
00:50:23.840 --> 00:50:27.800
people on on you know, retreats, and it's.

898
00:50:27.679 --> 00:50:31.320
Amazing when you see that they're allowed to. But you know,

899
00:50:31.400 --> 00:50:35.079
there's that saying like he who is without sin Carcifer's

900
00:50:35.119 --> 00:50:40.679
stone stone, and I even though like the abuses are

901
00:50:41.239 --> 00:50:45.760
the extreme obvious end, the thing that I really got

902
00:50:45.800 --> 00:50:48.920
from twelve Step and yoga is that you have to

903
00:50:49.000 --> 00:50:53.559
confront those aspects of ourselves that might be abusive or

904
00:50:53.599 --> 00:50:57.360
that might want to hold onto power that we all

905
00:50:57.639 --> 00:51:02.639
have aspects of that egotism. And part of yoga teaching

906
00:51:02.719 --> 00:51:06.039
I find is I have to be really aware of

907
00:51:06.280 --> 00:51:09.920
when I am wanting to be the guru on the stage,

908
00:51:10.280 --> 00:51:13.679
when I am feeding off my student's energy, when I'm

909
00:51:13.719 --> 00:51:16.239
starting to feel pretty good about myself, as if the

910
00:51:16.360 --> 00:51:19.599
yogurt is coming from me as if they're my teachings

911
00:51:20.440 --> 00:51:23.880
rather than I'm just they're coming through me and I'm

912
00:51:23.880 --> 00:51:27.239
adding my own flavor, and that can be really hard.

913
00:51:27.320 --> 00:51:30.800
I mean, depending on what's motivating someone to teach. There's

914
00:51:30.840 --> 00:51:34.360
definitely been times when I felt not so good about

915
00:51:34.360 --> 00:51:38.119
myself and then I would teach a class and feel

916
00:51:38.119 --> 00:51:40.400
like I had a lot of wisdom to impart. People

917
00:51:40.440 --> 00:51:42.719
could really learn from me. Hey, maybe I really need

918
00:51:42.760 --> 00:51:46.719
to start a business where I am like an influence sarasling.

919
00:51:47.599 --> 00:51:49.639
And not to be down on that, because I think,

920
00:51:49.719 --> 00:51:53.119
you know, that's perfectly legitimate, but just that you have

921
00:51:53.199 --> 00:51:58.519
to have that continual checking in process about letting go

922
00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:02.280
and not not hanging on to that ego aspect of teaching,

923
00:52:02.599 --> 00:52:04.599
and I guess it's the same for I mean, I

924
00:52:04.639 --> 00:52:07.079
guess is it the same for therapists where people can

925
00:52:07.119 --> 00:52:10.199
put you on a pedestal and you've got a.

926
00:52:09.800 --> 00:52:13.920
Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent And you know, I remember

927
00:52:14.440 --> 00:52:16.639
that really struck me when I was again I was

928
00:52:16.679 --> 00:52:19.280
Tara Bark, who is a clinical psychologist but also a

929
00:52:19.280 --> 00:52:21.159
Buddhist practitioner and teacher.

930
00:52:21.239 --> 00:52:22.760
She's well known around the world.

931
00:52:23.280 --> 00:52:25.480
But I was reading her book, and she said that

932
00:52:25.599 --> 00:52:30.079
in Buddhism, like there is no special person, and you know,

933
00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:30.920
everybody's equal.

934
00:52:30.920 --> 00:52:32.639
We're all we all are equal.

935
00:52:32.719 --> 00:52:36.159
That's what equanimity, right is as well, we're all equal,

936
00:52:36.360 --> 00:52:38.880
and that's humility, and there's nobody better than the other,

937
00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:42.000
and there's no hierarchy, and that she sometimes has to

938
00:52:42.079 --> 00:52:45.599
check in with herself when she starts finding herself going,

939
00:52:45.719 --> 00:52:49.000
you know, like somebody's late for her, I'm Tara Bark and.

940
00:52:49.039 --> 00:52:50.800
I do you not know who I am? Kind of thing.

941
00:52:50.920 --> 00:52:52.400
She's very honest about.

942
00:52:52.079 --> 00:52:55.960
That as her position as she became more well known,

943
00:52:56.760 --> 00:53:00.280
you know, somebody not having the meditation Matt set up ride,

944
00:53:00.400 --> 00:53:03.000
or somebody running late for you know, some session that

945
00:53:03.039 --> 00:53:05.440
she's running as she's live streaming around the world, you know,

946
00:53:05.800 --> 00:53:08.280
and that she has to check herself with that special person.

947
00:53:08.280 --> 00:53:10.360
And it always stayed with me and I do I

948
00:53:10.440 --> 00:53:12.719
check it with myself too, because you know, you have

949
00:53:12.760 --> 00:53:14.800
of a podcast, and I have written books now and

950
00:53:14.840 --> 00:53:17.960
people look up to me and learn from my work,

951
00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:19.880
and I'm constantly having to check in like I'm not

952
00:53:19.920 --> 00:53:23.559
a special person. I'm only I'm learning and share it.

953
00:53:23.559 --> 00:53:26.679
But I consider must have a conduit, you know, but you've.

954
00:53:26.519 --> 00:53:29.039
Got a teenage daughter, and I'm guessing any time that

955
00:53:29.119 --> 00:53:31.199
you need to be taken down a pig, you've got

956
00:53:31.239 --> 00:53:35.480
a daughter who can yeah, do that. But no, you

957
00:53:35.559 --> 00:53:38.199
make a good point, and I think I think those

958
00:53:38.239 --> 00:53:41.400
aspects are in all of us. And I guess, well,

959
00:53:41.440 --> 00:53:43.280
you know, one of the steps in twelve step is

960
00:53:43.320 --> 00:53:46.599
about learning to recognize you know, they call them defects,

961
00:53:46.599 --> 00:53:48.960
but those parts of your character that are a bit crappy,

962
00:53:49.480 --> 00:53:53.440
and instead of trying to pray them away or spiritual

963
00:53:53.480 --> 00:53:55.840
bypass them, you just have to laugh. You just have

964
00:53:55.960 --> 00:53:59.480
to accept them and when they come up, just be like, oh, yeah,

965
00:53:59.480 --> 00:54:01.000
there you go. You know, I want to be the

966
00:54:01.039 --> 00:54:02.480
best one in the room. I want to be better

967
00:54:02.519 --> 00:54:05.519
than everyone and kind of forgive it and let it go.

968
00:54:05.960 --> 00:54:08.280
And that means that when you recognize it in other people,

969
00:54:08.360 --> 00:54:10.159
you won't hate them so much because you can kind

970
00:54:10.199 --> 00:54:11.880
of laugh at it in yourself. You can forgive it

971
00:54:11.880 --> 00:54:14.039
in other people. I mean, and I guess that's what

972
00:54:14.119 --> 00:54:18.039
the shadow work is. It's recognizing those shadow parts and

973
00:54:18.159 --> 00:54:21.079
just loving them, you know, not condemning them, loving them,

974
00:54:21.119 --> 00:54:23.519
and then they kind of they're not so powerful. Anymore.

975
00:54:24.280 --> 00:54:28.360
Yeah, I think that you've really just hit on, Alice.

976
00:54:28.400 --> 00:54:30.639
The key to all of this and the key to

977
00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:32.840
and I guess where we're all trying to get to

978
00:54:33.440 --> 00:54:39.599
is that complete self acceptance, flaws and all, not trying

979
00:54:39.639 --> 00:54:44.760
to self improve ourselves away, you know, out of our brokenness,

980
00:54:44.960 --> 00:54:48.280
but almost and again it's probably sounds a bit waky,

981
00:54:48.280 --> 00:54:52.280
but like embracing it, like it's okay because the quote

982
00:54:52.280 --> 00:54:54.800
that I love too and I always butcher it, but

983
00:54:54.880 --> 00:54:59.760
it is something like, beware the subtle aggression of self improvement.

984
00:55:00.440 --> 00:55:02.320
Wow, he said that. That's amazing.

985
00:55:02.400 --> 00:55:05.360
Bob Style I think is his name, but I say

986
00:55:05.400 --> 00:55:07.480
it all the time to people, beware the subtle aggression

987
00:55:07.519 --> 00:55:08.480
of self improvement.

988
00:55:08.719 --> 00:55:10.599
Isn't that just because you never fixed?

989
00:55:10.679 --> 00:55:13.679
Are you? You never fixed? There's always more, and it's

990
00:55:13.800 --> 00:55:16.039
just it can be an addiction in itself.

991
00:55:16.079 --> 00:55:18.320
It's an aggression against the self. Right.

992
00:55:18.559 --> 00:55:22.920
There's a quote in the book, and it's my teacher Jorge,

993
00:55:23.039 --> 00:55:27.159
who is Andrew Morenis in real life, and he's quoting

994
00:55:27.239 --> 00:55:31.440
some really wise guru who says, you know, ring the

995
00:55:31.440 --> 00:55:35.880
bells that still can ring, forget your perfect offering. There

996
00:55:35.960 --> 00:55:38.199
is a crack in everything, and that is how the

997
00:55:38.320 --> 00:55:40.639
light gets in. And I'm like, oh, who's that is

998
00:55:40.639 --> 00:55:42.480
that room and he's like, no, it's not a Cohen,

999
00:55:44.039 --> 00:55:47.679
but it's that idea that it's the cracks, the cracks

1000
00:55:47.719 --> 00:55:50.360
in our armor, and that's where vulnerability comes in. That's

1001
00:55:50.400 --> 00:55:53.280
where connection comes in. And I just want to quickly

1002
00:55:53.280 --> 00:55:55.119
say I don't know if this time, but I was

1003
00:55:55.159 --> 00:55:57.320
in a twelve step meeting the other day and they're

1004
00:55:57.320 --> 00:55:59.599
all on zoom. I'm in Melbourne, so we're in lockdown

1005
00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:03.440
meetings on zoom and I was listening to this guy.

1006
00:56:03.519 --> 00:56:06.599
There were people in a various levels of recovery in

1007
00:56:06.639 --> 00:56:08.800
the meeting, and there were some who were like really

1008
00:56:08.840 --> 00:56:11.440
happy and inspiring and some people who are really struggling

1009
00:56:11.519 --> 00:56:14.840
and inspiring. And there was this guy who came in

1010
00:56:15.039 --> 00:56:18.400
and he was just desperate. He was just so flat,

1011
00:56:18.480 --> 00:56:22.000
and he was talking about being cross addicted and he's

1012
00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:24.440
relapsed in this area, and these other things come in

1013
00:56:24.519 --> 00:56:29.719
and blah blah blah, and you know, I identify as cross addiction.

1014
00:56:29.800 --> 00:56:32.519
I've cross addicted. I've got a few things going on.

1015
00:56:33.159 --> 00:56:38.159
And he just was the most inspiring person that I

1016
00:56:38.239 --> 00:56:41.400
connected to all meeting because he was there. He was there.

1017
00:56:41.480 --> 00:56:45.119
He was showing up, he was being honest about his experience,

1018
00:56:45.800 --> 00:56:51.360
he was being honest about how he felt. And something

1019
00:56:51.440 --> 00:56:54.559
about that courage and that honesty to show up as

1020
00:56:54.639 --> 00:56:56.280
you are and just say this is what's going on

1021
00:56:56.320 --> 00:56:59.599
for me just really touched me in that meeting, And

1022
00:56:59.760 --> 00:57:02.360
I think, I guess that's the thing about we want

1023
00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:04.960
to self improve to the point where we no one

1024
00:57:04.960 --> 00:57:07.159
can relate to us, like I can't relate to that

1025
00:57:07.239 --> 00:57:10.400
perfect person. And I think this is the thing about

1026
00:57:10.679 --> 00:57:14.679
the wellness trend, particularly on Instagram, you know, I just

1027
00:57:15.039 --> 00:57:18.400
I cannot relate to the people with the perfect body,

1028
00:57:18.559 --> 00:57:23.400
the airbrushed images, the so called inspirational quotes. And it's

1029
00:57:23.440 --> 00:57:28.679
so weird because one of my former teachers, who is

1030
00:57:28.880 --> 00:57:30.599
like an ex gymnast, so she can do all those

1031
00:57:30.719 --> 00:57:33.079
poses where you put your feet on your head backwards

1032
00:57:33.119 --> 00:57:36.119
on a handstand, you know, that would that I sort

1033
00:57:36.119 --> 00:57:39.039
of cringe my back aches every time I look at them.

1034
00:57:39.320 --> 00:57:43.119
And it was a picture of her doing this impossible

1035
00:57:43.480 --> 00:57:46.280
pose on the edge of the cliff, like if I

1036
00:57:46.440 --> 00:57:49.239
was like, if you moved to an inch, you would

1037
00:57:49.239 --> 00:57:53.039
be in the newspaper. And the quote was something about

1038
00:57:53.480 --> 00:57:56.000
just try your best you know, no one's watching, and

1039
00:57:56.039 --> 00:57:58.599
I'm like, are you so real? Are you kidding me

1040
00:57:58.719 --> 00:58:01.880
right now? Like that is not that is not you know.

1041
00:58:02.719 --> 00:58:07.840
So yeah, I think there's this real hardline that particularly

1042
00:58:07.880 --> 00:58:11.280
maybe influencers, I don't know, you feel that you want

1043
00:58:11.280 --> 00:58:15.519
to be inspiring and aspirational, but at the same time,

1044
00:58:15.880 --> 00:58:18.440
if people can't relate to you, it's really just feeding

1045
00:58:18.440 --> 00:58:22.800
your own ego. It's not actually helping anyone. So that's yeah,

1046
00:58:22.800 --> 00:58:25.159
I guess that's something that that wellness community kind of

1047
00:58:25.159 --> 00:58:25.800
has to look at.

1048
00:58:26.159 --> 00:58:28.480
Yeah, And I think that's a good point too for

1049
00:58:28.519 --> 00:58:30.960
anybody listening. Like, I think it's always good advice that

1050
00:58:31.360 --> 00:58:35.280
no matter how positive somebody's message is, if it gets

1051
00:58:35.320 --> 00:58:38.079
to the point that it's making you feel bad, then

1052
00:58:38.119 --> 00:58:41.480
it's okay to unfollow and no disrespect because somebody else

1053
00:58:41.519 --> 00:58:44.480
will be getting what they need from that person or

1054
00:58:44.760 --> 00:58:46.400
or you know, at a different point.

1055
00:58:47.239 --> 00:58:50.159
But you know, I learned that early on.

1056
00:58:50.679 --> 00:58:53.239
You know, years ago, I directed a client of mine

1057
00:58:53.239 --> 00:58:55.440
to a particular website or a person who was a

1058
00:58:55.480 --> 00:58:57.559
parenting expert, you know, and she had a lot of

1059
00:58:57.639 --> 00:59:01.119
great tools and great advice, and I I found myself

1060
00:59:01.159 --> 00:59:05.840
often referring people to her work, and they often learned

1061
00:59:05.840 --> 00:59:07.719
a lot and they gained a lot. But at one

1062
00:59:07.719 --> 00:59:09.320
point a client came back to me and said, I

1063
00:59:09.360 --> 00:59:12.840
had to unsubscribe from the emails because it was making

1064
00:59:12.880 --> 00:59:15.599
me feel worse about all of my own like because

1065
00:59:15.639 --> 00:59:17.840
I wasn't able to you know, and that's something we

1066
00:59:17.920 --> 00:59:19.639
have to sort of look at in ourselves too. Like,

1067
00:59:20.079 --> 00:59:21.800
I just found it was too positive all the time.

1068
00:59:21.800 --> 00:59:24.960
There was no allowance for the fact that sometimes you're

1069
00:59:25.000 --> 00:59:27.159
not going to get it right. And that's okay. You know,

1070
00:59:27.199 --> 00:59:29.199
you're not always going to be the most present, calm,

1071
00:59:29.239 --> 00:59:30.159
peaceful parent.

1072
00:59:30.559 --> 00:59:33.800
I mean that no teacher, whether you're the student or

1073
00:59:33.840 --> 00:59:36.159
the teacher, you're never going to get that balance right

1074
00:59:36.239 --> 00:59:39.440
for every single person. Some people will find you too positive,

1075
00:59:39.519 --> 00:59:42.280
some people will find you too whatever. So as long

1076
00:59:42.320 --> 00:59:46.440
as you're true to yourself, you kind of can't go wrong. Yeah,

1077
00:59:46.559 --> 00:59:49.159
And it comes back I think to that saying take

1078
00:59:49.159 --> 00:59:51.159
what you like and leave the rest. There are definitely

1079
00:59:51.239 --> 00:59:56.519
teachers who I find have wonderful things to say. Particularly

1080
00:59:56.519 --> 00:59:58.639
the American teachers do this a lot. They're a lot

1081
00:59:58.679 --> 01:00:01.480
glossier than the Australian. I don't know if you find

1082
01:00:01.519 --> 01:00:04.639
that Cass but I find that that glass and that

1083
01:00:04.920 --> 01:00:07.519
perennial upbeatness can kind of get to me after a while.

1084
01:00:07.519 --> 01:00:09.440
And then I just remind myself they any bad, They're

1085
01:00:09.440 --> 01:00:11.960
not wrong. Just take the lessons that they've got that

1086
01:00:12.000 --> 01:00:14.000
I like, and then just leave all the other stuff.

1087
01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:15.360
I don't have to take that onto.

1088
01:00:16.079 --> 01:00:19.320
Yeah, I think that you'd make a great influencer, Alice.

1089
01:00:19.400 --> 01:00:22.000
I think that you really like you should.

1090
01:00:22.519 --> 01:00:25.199
You should start a bad Yoga Instagram account and just

1091
01:00:25.239 --> 01:00:29.719
share your relatable, humorous, hilarious life advice because you have

1092
01:00:29.800 --> 01:00:30.719
so much to share.

1093
01:00:30.880 --> 01:00:31.400
I assume.

1094
01:00:32.360 --> 01:00:34.480
I just want to ask you too.

1095
01:00:35.280 --> 01:00:36.840
There are a lot of people in lockdown who have

1096
01:00:36.920 --> 01:00:42.159
been in lockdown for about seventy gazillion bloody months and

1097
01:00:43.039 --> 01:00:47.400
really struggling. Everybody's over it, and this is a time

1098
01:00:47.440 --> 01:00:50.039
when people's issues can come to the surface. You know,

1099
01:00:50.079 --> 01:00:52.679
we know that alcoholism is on the rise. You know,

1100
01:00:52.719 --> 01:00:54.199
we know that people are stuck at home. If you've

1101
01:00:54.239 --> 01:00:57.719
got some sort of crutch, it's probably you know, out

1102
01:00:57.760 --> 01:00:59.880
of control for a lot of people at the moments.

1103
01:01:00.039 --> 01:01:02.199
So if somebody is listening to this and they're going,

1104
01:01:02.320 --> 01:01:04.280
maybe this is what I need to jump into one

1105
01:01:04.280 --> 01:01:07.320
of these communities where I can get some support. I mean,

1106
01:01:07.360 --> 01:01:09.039
you know, it might be food, it might be alcohol,

1107
01:01:09.079 --> 01:01:12.000
it might be I don't know. Maybe you can't answer

1108
01:01:12.039 --> 01:01:14.440
the question, but how do people go about finding those

1109
01:01:15.320 --> 01:01:17.719
services when they're stuck at home in lockdown?

1110
01:01:18.079 --> 01:01:20.519
Yeah? Look, I think I can only speak from my

1111
01:01:20.519 --> 01:01:24.159
own experience and my experiences with twelve Step. That's where

1112
01:01:24.199 --> 01:01:28.400
I go for all my addiction needs. And I think

1113
01:01:28.440 --> 01:01:31.280
it's just identify what the issue is. You know, is

1114
01:01:31.320 --> 01:01:34.079
it spending too much, is it whatever it is? Is

1115
01:01:34.119 --> 01:01:38.719
it obsession with a person? Is it codependence? And you know,

1116
01:01:38.880 --> 01:01:44.199
just google codependence, anonymous, alcoholics, anonymous, overreader's anonymous. They've got.

1117
01:01:44.320 --> 01:01:46.800
So that's the one blessing of lockdown is there are

1118
01:01:46.880 --> 01:01:50.719
so many meetings online all the time, all day long,

1119
01:01:51.360 --> 01:01:53.760
and just jump into a zoom meeting. You can have

1120
01:01:53.840 --> 01:01:56.639
your camera off and just listen and see if it's

1121
01:01:56.639 --> 01:01:59.679
a few. And I would say, they say, try six meetings.

1122
01:01:59.840 --> 01:02:02.039
I heard six meetings and I was like, there's no way.

1123
01:02:02.559 --> 01:02:05.760
But different meetings have a really different vibe. So if

1124
01:02:05.760 --> 01:02:07.679
you go to one and it just doesn't feel quite right,

1125
01:02:08.400 --> 01:02:10.639
stick it out, go to a few different meetings, give

1126
01:02:10.679 --> 01:02:12.599
it a little while before you decide if it's right

1127
01:02:12.639 --> 01:02:14.960
for you and just show up. All you have to

1128
01:02:14.960 --> 01:02:15.639
do is show up.

1129
01:02:15.960 --> 01:02:18.239
Alice, you are a gem. I'm so happy that we

1130
01:02:18.280 --> 01:02:20.559
had the opportunity. We've been trying to do this since June.

1131
01:02:20.679 --> 01:02:21.719
You're a gym.

1132
01:02:21.519 --> 01:02:24.719
I'm so glad that we finally.

1133
01:02:24.760 --> 01:02:27.760
Made it happen and had an earthquake knockout.

1134
01:02:28.480 --> 01:02:32.840
We've had no no end of challenges, but we're here

1135
01:02:33.360 --> 01:02:35.360
and I am so grateful to you for everything that

1136
01:02:35.360 --> 01:02:37.239
you have shared today. Thank you so much, and please

1137
01:02:37.280 --> 01:02:39.280
everybody go out and buy Bad Yogi. It's a couple

1138
01:02:39.320 --> 01:02:40.719
of years old now, so it's probably not at the

1139
01:02:40.760 --> 01:02:42.679
top of the best seller list anymore, so let's revive

1140
01:02:42.719 --> 01:02:47.199
it get some more sales going because it is so

1141
01:02:47.360 --> 01:02:50.159
worth a read. Thanks Alice Cat, You're a Gym.

1142
01:02:50.280 --> 01:02:52.599
Thank you.

1143
01:02:53.639 --> 01:02:56.840
Alice's memoir, of course, is called Bad Yogi, and I

1144
01:02:56.880 --> 01:02:58.840
hope that by now you've already added it to your

1145
01:02:58.880 --> 01:03:01.639
next online shopping order. Give it to everybody you know

1146
01:03:01.679 --> 01:03:02.639
for a Christmas present.

1147
01:03:02.960 --> 01:03:04.760
You will love it. I know you won't regret it.

1148
01:03:05.400 --> 01:03:08.360
If this episode has raised any issues for you, remember

1149
01:03:08.400 --> 01:03:11.960
you can call the Butterfly Foundation National helpline on one

1150
01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:15.840
eight hundred ed hope that's one eight hundred double three

1151
01:03:16.079 --> 01:03:19.840
four six seven three, or as Alice said, there is

1152
01:03:19.880 --> 01:03:23.840
an online recovery meeting for just about anything, just a

1153
01:03:23.920 --> 01:03:28.599
quick Google search away. It's safe, anonymous, and accessible, of course,

1154
01:03:28.599 --> 01:03:31.400
from the comfort and privacy of your own home. I

1155
01:03:31.440 --> 01:03:34.199
hope you enjoyed this episode of Crappy to Happy. Please

1156
01:03:34.239 --> 01:03:37.440
subscribe on Apple Podcasts by pressing the little plus button

1157
01:03:37.440 --> 01:03:39.880
on the top right, or by hitting the follow button

1158
01:03:39.880 --> 01:03:42.679
if you're listening on Spotify, and of course, please also

1159
01:03:42.760 --> 01:03:45.039
leave us a rating and review, as that does help

1160
01:03:45.119 --> 01:03:47.920
us to reach more listeners. I can't wait to chat

1161
01:03:47.920 --> 01:03:58.039
with you on the next episode of Crappy to Happy.

1162
01:03:58.679 --> 01:03:59.119
Listener