Nov. 14, 2022

Healing from developmental trauma with Rick Morton

Healing from developmental trauma with Rick Morton
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Healing from developmental trauma with Rick Morton
Healing from developmental trauma with Rick Morton
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Season 8 Personal Growth & Healing

In this episode, Cass is joined by Rick Morton, an award winning journalist and author with an incredible story of trauma and survival. Rick shares his experience with generational trauma and how his experience in childhood shaped his adult life. He describes his pathway to healing and the different steps he took to help him begin his journey of recovery.Content Warning: This episode does touch on the topic of sexual assault and contain some adult language, so if you have little ears around you might want to pop in earphones to listen. If it brings up anything for you, please reach out to lifeline for around the clock support 13 11 14
Connect with Rick:https://www.rickmorton.com.au/
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Transcript
WEBVTT

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A listener production.

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This is Crappita Happy and I am your host Castunn.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist and mindfulness meditation teacher

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and of.

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Course, author of the Crappita Happy books.

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In this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring,

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intelligent people who are experts in their field and who

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have something of value to share that will help you

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feel less crappy and more happy. In today's episode, I'm

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talking to Rick Morton, an award winning journalist and author

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with an incredible story of trauma and survival. His book,

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My Year of Living Vulnerably sees Rick process his diagnosis

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of complex post traumatic stress disorder. Over twelve months, Rick

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went on a journey to rediscover love and to begin healing.

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In this episode, Rick reflects on his experience with generational

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trauma in his childhood and how it shaped his adult life.

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He generously shares his pathway to healing from this trauma,

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various therapies he used to begin this process, and what

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he learned along the way. Just a heads up that

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this episode does touch on the topic of sexual assault.

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If that's something that's triggering for you, you might want

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to skip this episode. This episode does contain some adult language,

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so if you have little ears around, you might want

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to pop in your headphones to listen. Rick Morton, thank

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you so much for joining me on the Crappy a

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Happy Podcast.

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Thanks for having me Cash.

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I saw your book at a bookstore and it is

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called My Year of Living Vulnerably, and I was immediately

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drawn to it. I picked it up, took it home,

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contacted your publisher. I said, I want to read this book,

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and then I need to get this guy on the podcast.

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I was so intrigued.

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Can you, I guess, start by sharing with me what

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was the catalyst for you embarking on a year of

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living vulnerably and choosing to write about it?

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Yeah, it's look I mean. The funny thing is, I

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didn't want to write this book. It was not my intention.

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It wasn't meant to be my second book. In fact,

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I'd never imagined that I would write it. But I

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was diagnosed with complex post traumatic stress disorder in early

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twenty nineteen as a result of something I'd learned doing

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the book tour for my first book about how trauma

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might actually apply it to my life. And no one

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had ever said that to me, like in all of

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the psychological sessions i'd done, had we spoke about traumatic

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things that happened, and we use the word trauma, but

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no one ever said, I think you have a condition

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as a result of trauma. And that is very separate

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to being told that you've got you know, generalized anxiety

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disorder or depression. They manifest very differently. And so I

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kind of decided that if I could, like if I

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could be taken by surprise, have you written a whole

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book about intergeneration or trauma in my family and I

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could still be taken by surprise, that I kind of

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needed to do something with that, And so that's where

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this book started my year of living vulnerably.

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I find that really interesting. I haven't read your first book.

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I really would like to now, having read the second one.

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My family's from Country, Queensland. I grew up into Warmbar.

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You understand, oh yeah, right right with I know it well, yes, indeed,

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So I relate a lot to what you write about.

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What you talk about about your growing up and your

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family of origin and all that sort of stuff. But

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I find that really interesting that you having written about

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trauma even in your own family, and having been diagnosed

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with mental health conditions as an adult that you didn't

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make that connection. How common do you think that is now?

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Because I think it's very common.

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One of the points I was trying to make in

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this book is that I think particularly complex PTSD or

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developmental trauma, whatever you want to call it, the emotional

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side of trauma, rather than a single event like a

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car accident. I think that is at the heart of

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almost all dysfunction everything in society. I agree everything, I agree.

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We are on one hundred percent of the same page.

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It's like being taught, you know, It's like going into

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the matrix right where you can finally see everything in code.

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Except the code in this instance is that's family breakup.

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That's emotional neglect. It presents itself in every facet of

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the welfare system, the criminal justice system, drug and alcohol abuse.

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Like it's just and I'm like, can no one else

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see this? You can?

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And now you see it everywhere?

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Yeah, yeah, you can't unsee it exactly.

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Just a couple of weeks ago, I was talking to

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a friend and I said to her, I shared with

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her that, you know, seventy percent of the population has

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experienced major trauma. You know, because we talk about now

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the distinction between what they call big T trauma, you know,

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those major traumas sexual assault, and the little tea you know,

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the minor sort of injustices or the lesser I guess,

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in severity. And I said, but you know, apparently seventy

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percent of the population have experienced major trauma, and she

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was saying, wow, like that's unbelievable, Like that's really.

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Significant, like it is.

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And then in a separate conversation, we were talking about

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our growing up years and she was.

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Sharing with me all of the trauma that she's experienced.

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And in my head, I was thinking, okay, but you

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seem surprised by that seventy percent, But you've just told

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me about all of your trauma. And I don't think

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that she was making that connection.

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No, No, and I didn't at all, because and you

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still get it. There will be people who will listen

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to this podcast, and I don't blame them for asking

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the question, but they will say, but didn't everyone have

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a difficult childhood in some way, shape or form. Everyone's

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had not everyone, but a lot of people have had

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broken families where a parent left. The cold, hard truth

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of it all is is that those things really do

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mess you up, exactly, And it's different for different people.

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That's always been the case. But if something happens at

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the right moment in time, at the right age when

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you were developmentally vulnerable to this, like in my case,

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I was seven, I was almost the perfect age to

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remember this kind of snapshot of abandonment. If you're oriented

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in a way where that stuff can really impact you,

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then bam, it hits you, and it hits you hard.

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And you know, I've got friends who are from really

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well off families, who didn't experience poverty and who went

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to the best schools, whose parents split up when they

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were in primary school, and who have suffered greatly because

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of it. It's different for different people, but it's so

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insidious and it's so embedded that we actually don't question it.

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And so I really welcome this, these conversations and books

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like yours and.

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Just people shining a light on the.

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Fact that we need to widen our definition of trauma

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and we need to become I think, on the exactly

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like you said, we need to become more aware of

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the role that it plays in all of the things,

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all of the things I said to Nicole.

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La Perra who's the holistics.

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So I college she's going to beg Instagram following I

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had her on the podcast a year or so ago

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and I said to her, I have come to the conclusion.

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I think that we all talk about being our most

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authentic selves or be you know, go out there and

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be your most authentic self. I don't think anybody knows

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who their most authentic self is. I think everybody is

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a walking bundle of conditioned responses and survival strategies.

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Oh god, God, yes, it's all about just making it

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through childhood, and then you're stuck with whatever coping mechanism

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worked for you. I mean that's basically what I am.

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I am a bag of flesh that happened to develop

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these really unhealthy strategies to survive year seven of his life.

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And now we're kind of just like, oh, well, I

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guess I'm stuck with this fear of being lied to

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and abandoned by male figures in my life. Like that's

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a toxic combination as a thirty five year old.

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I'm going to show you, Yeah, Sorick, what could you

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share with us what happened when you were seven?

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I know you share it in the book, but for

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the listeners.

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Oh yeah, yeah, I always just I just keep going

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on about it as if it's like, oh no, something

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I stuck by toad. It was all a sequence of events, right,

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So just very briefly, nineteen ninety four, my brother has

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burned in a really bad accident on the station. I

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watched it happen. I was right next to him. We

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didn't know if he was going to live, and I

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watched my dad pull him out of this pit, it

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still hot to the touch, with his skin just hanging

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off him. And then we had to wait because we're

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on a cattle station in the outback, so we had

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to wait hours and hours and hours for the row

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Line doctor service, which had to do a refuel coming

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from the birds Will races. And so just watching that

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suffering unfold, and then I always forget to mention my

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poor sister, who I loved dearly, but she was three

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weeks old at this point. Was like, you never mentioned

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that I have a baby at this point. I'm like, yes,

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because at that point, like I remember you, but it

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was just not I don't even know what we did

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with the baby at this point. So my sister Lauren

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and my mum get on the plane with my brother

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for the flight to Brisbane, and there's no room for

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me on the plane, which you don't know of itself.

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Is fine, and I don't blame them, obviously, but my

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dad and I didn't have a great relationship as it was.

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I was a bit of a weird kid. He didn't

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really understand me. I desperately sought his affection. Like the

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month there's a famous story about where I got stuck

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in the middle of a creek, like up to my

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knees in mudgs, surrounded by cattle because my dad didn't

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wave goodbye to me when he went back went off

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on the horse. So I followed him that he say

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goodbye to me. Yeah, I know, this is before all

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of this happened. And so while my mom and my

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sister and my brother are away in hospital, my brother's

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fighting for his life for two months, my dad has

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an affair with the nineteen year old governess. I'm alone

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on this cattle station. It's isolated to thousand square kilometers,

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and I watch it happen like I saw her like

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jumping on his lap when I tried to surprise them

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after having a shower. I saw them kissing after dinner.

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One night, I saw her washing the bed sheets, and

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I was like, what the fuck? What was going on?

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Like even as a seven year old, I knew it

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was weird, and I knew that something was happening, but

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I didn't have the language for it. And God, if

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you want to articulate literally a maddening situation for someone,

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it's not giving them the language to understand what it

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is that's happening, but giving them the feeling that it's wrong.

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And that is the moment. In particular, those weeks that

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I spent alone on that session, I don't remember anything

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except those encounters where I run into her on his lap,

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them kissing her, watching the bedge. I remember nothing else.

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Isn't it interesting? What sticks? The important stuff that sticks?

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Correct enough to know, like later on, to anchor myself

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in that moment, but not enough that I had to

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remember every painful, aching silence every day where I was.

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I mean, I don't know what we did, and it

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still drives me a little bit wild because I've got

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a great memory, like especially of early children. I've got

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such vivid memories of growing up as a kid on

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a cal station well before I turned seven years before

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because It was such a great childhood up until that point, really,

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despite a few little problems. But I can't pierce the

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complete blackness of those weeks. I can't do it.

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What I'm just curious to know.

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So was there any contact with your mum and your

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brother during that time?

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There was? There was, And again I think back to it,

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and I can't piece together the sequence of events. But

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I know that Mum sent care packages back because I

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do remember getting a care package. But again I don't

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remember my Dad being there, like I don't remember any

230
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other moments of I assume we spoke on the phone.

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I don't remember talking to Mum on the phone. It

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was some time after the accident. Before Dad we got

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in the car and we drove to Brisbane to finally

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see them, and I still I don't remember the car.

235
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I remember being in that hospital with my brother, and

236
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I just let my memory kicks back in, but I

237
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don't remember anything else. And then we went back and

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we still had to wait for them to come home

239
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because my brother was getting skin grass and back in

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the day when it was even more rudimentary than it

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00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:33.000
is than it is now, which is they will literally

242
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scrape it off you somewhere to get the skin. Yeah,

243
00:11:36.639 --> 00:11:37.519
just take it where they could.

244
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So that is significant trauma.

245
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And I think so now it time. Yes, and my

246
00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:48.399
brother experienced the physical trauma right and also the loss

247
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of his dad after this because of subsequent family breakdown

248
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and became a textbook case study for a Waywood straight boy,

249
00:11:56.519 --> 00:11:58.919
sisterender boy who kind of gets into drugs and alcohol

250
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and doesn't have his father. Fore and I experienced the

251
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emotional trauma before and after so and we dealt with

252
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it in different ways, but also we both both suffered

253
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because of it.

254
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And so I mean, I guess that manifested later in

255
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life in various ways. How do you connect the dots now,

256
00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:21.799
like what sort of things did you experience?

257
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What were your survival patterns? Rick?

258
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I guess that you now realize how direct result of that.

259
00:12:27.559 --> 00:12:31.240
Well, I mean, the interesting thing is that it took

260
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a long time for me to realize that anything had

261
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gone wrong. Like I knew that that whole period was terrible,

262
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and I used to tell the story to anyone who

263
00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:40.799
would listen, but I told it almost as if it

264
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happened to someone else. And the hardest thing was then

265
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being raised by a single Mum an amazing woman who

266
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loved it steely, but we just had no money because

267
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Dad FROs bank accounts. He kicked us out. Wow, whispered yeah,

268
00:12:56.039 --> 00:12:58.000
he because he basically when they got back from I

269
00:12:58.039 --> 00:13:01.080
should probably tell you that when they got back from hospital,

270
00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:05.399
he basically said, I don't love you anymore. But I

271
00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:08.000
mean my brother was his favorite, and seeing that happened

272
00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:10.679
to my brother broke him. He had a terrible childhood himself,

273
00:13:10.679 --> 00:13:13.399
my dad like way. It was violent and cruel in

274
00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:15.960
ways that are almost unimaginable. And he turned out to

275
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be a pretty good dad all things considered, except he

276
00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:20.519
couldn't handle his emotions, and this is something I've always

277
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been really afraid of, and so he just just became

278
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a coward essentially, when he was faced with what happened

279
00:13:25.679 --> 00:13:27.639
to my brother and couldn't deal with it, so he

280
00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:29.919
kicked us out. He froze the bank accounts, he sold

281
00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:32.240
the car that was in both his end Mum's name,

282
00:13:32.919 --> 00:13:36.480
which should have required her signature, but this is sexist

283
00:13:36.840 --> 00:13:40.240
nineteen nineties, and Dad just convinced the guy to let

284
00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:43.360
it happen. So Mum got nothing for years until there

285
00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:44.759
was a settle when they owned a small block of

286
00:13:44.840 --> 00:13:48.840
land in Booner, which I think she got like ten

287
00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:50.879
thousand dollars from at the time, but that was a

288
00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:53.240
few years later, and it was enough to set us

289
00:13:53.320 --> 00:13:55.240
up in terms of furniture and stuff like that, get

290
00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:58.039
her a car, but we had nothing. And so the

291
00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:01.159
thing that I was preoccupied with for all of those

292
00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:03.320
years until I turned twenty one and realized that I

293
00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:07.519
was gay, was, oh, we don't have a lot of money.

294
00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:11.320
But other than that, I was so naive. And then

295
00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:13.720
of course dealing with my sexuality in my twenties when

296
00:14:13.720 --> 00:14:16.000
I'm away on the Gold Coast for university and work

297
00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:20.000
kind of precipitated my first breakdown. But it wasn't until

298
00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:23.159
a few quite a few years later, actually twenty twelve

299
00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:26.679
when I found out that Dad, or twenty fourteen actually

300
00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:28.399
when I found out that Dad had found out that

301
00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:30.879
I was gay and had said to my brother, despite

302
00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:33.360
everything that had happened to us and that he had

303
00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:38.000
helped happen to us, he said, basically, what your brother's

304
00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:40.639
doing isn't right. I don't agree with his lifestyle and

305
00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:43.879
stuff like that. So it was like the emotional neglect

306
00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:47.840
in a low level abuse I could deal with, but

307
00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:52.759
that broke me. That was the start of this unraveling

308
00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:54.960
that took a very very long time to correct.

309
00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:58.919
So you had a series of, well you call them

310
00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:00.720
sort of mental breakdowns.

311
00:15:00.879 --> 00:15:03.480
I do, and I mean that. I know we're probably

312
00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:06.720
not meant to use those terms anymore, but I find

313
00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:11.159
it hard to describe. They were violent, they were jarring,

314
00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:16.200
they were incredibly unnerving. They were like I look back

315
00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:19.759
and I have a pretty vivid memory of some of

316
00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:23.159
the moments where I completely lost it. Not at anyone.

317
00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:27.679
I didn't hurt anyone physically, but just screaming at people

318
00:15:27.679 --> 00:15:29.919
who I loved and who loved me, but who I

319
00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:33.360
had judged in those moments were not helping me in

320
00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:36.080
the way that I thought that they should, which was

321
00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:40.519
to tell me that I am lovable. Of course, the

322
00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:42.600
bar I set for them was that they had to

323
00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:46.600
tell me and remind me always and forever. Because I

324
00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:51.840
create whole arguments in my head. I would array information

325
00:15:53.240 --> 00:15:58.840
from every conceivable source, text, messages, photos, inflection points in

326
00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:01.279
a sentence set in a verse conversation, and I would

327
00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:04.440
use that information to essentially create a narrative that these

328
00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:07.240
people were trying to leave me, or abandon me, or

329
00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:08.960
get the hell away from me, because that had been

330
00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:11.360
my experience to that point. And I look back at

331
00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:15.600
these moments and they were shattering in just the toll

332
00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:18.240
they took on me. And I had no understanding of

333
00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:21.080
what was happening. I just thought I had really bad anxiety,

334
00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:25.399
and anxiety is crippling and bad, but this was different,

335
00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:27.840
and I didn't know that at the time because I'd

336
00:16:27.879 --> 00:16:30.320
been diagnosed with anxiety. It's all I'd been diagnosed with.

337
00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:32.279
What I would do was because I never had this

338
00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:35.519
affectionate male role model in my life, and so every

339
00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:38.399
now and then I would come across I would get

340
00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:42.200
a friend or develop a friendship with a guy. And

341
00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:44.840
I've got lots of male friends who were gay and

342
00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:47.480
straight and everything in between, but it was always the

343
00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:50.000
straight ones. And I think there was an element of

344
00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:53.039
me being bedazzled by the idea that a straight guy

345
00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:56.320
would a choose to be friends with me, and a

346
00:16:56.360 --> 00:16:58.639
particularly kind of straight guy who would actually not just

347
00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:00.279
choose to be friends with me, but would actual be

348
00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:03.879
affectionate in their love and attention, not in a romantic sense,

349
00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:07.039
but in a you know, hug your mates, telling me

350
00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:09.680
you love them, chat to them openly about feelings and

351
00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:12.759
things like that. It was like watching David Copperfield make

352
00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:15.319
the shutter, the space shuttle disappear, like there was that

353
00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:18.000
kind of like, oh, I still think it, like I

354
00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:20.799
still am, like there's something intoxicating about it because I

355
00:17:20.839 --> 00:17:24.759
didn't get it. And so those friendships in particular were

356
00:17:24.920 --> 00:17:28.200
fine if the person already had a partner, or if

357
00:17:28.200 --> 00:17:31.920
they were single, but the moment something changed and they

358
00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:34.079
were looking for a new partner or they were dating

359
00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:36.599
someone for the first time as a single person was

360
00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:39.279
when everything around me felt like it was being up ended.

361
00:17:39.319 --> 00:17:43.200
And I can literally still feel the feeling in certain

362
00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:46.279
moments when I found out, either directly from the person,

363
00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:49.039
and there's different people. The attachment's always the same, but

364
00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:52.680
different people who trigger it. I can still remember the

365
00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:55.000
feeling either when they've told me, oh, I just met

366
00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:57.039
this cool chick and we went on a day that it

367
00:17:57.119 --> 00:17:59.319
was amazing, or when I found out from a friend

368
00:17:59.319 --> 00:18:02.279
of a friend. It's like someone is seeing this person

369
00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:07.880
and it was like I'd been shot. It was visceral

370
00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:12.279
and like I was leaving my body because it was

371
00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:14.680
just fear and the thing that again it took me,

372
00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:17.119
so I knew that that was the trigger after four

373
00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:19.839
or five years, But it wasn't literally until a couple

374
00:18:19.880 --> 00:18:22.440
of years ago, where I realized that it wasn't specifically

375
00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:28.000
about the attention. It was about me trying to figure

376
00:18:28.039 --> 00:18:32.039
out what was going on, because that was me when

377
00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:35.240
I was seven. I knew that Dad was lying to me.

378
00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:38.240
I knew that something was happening. I didn't know what

379
00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:41.319
it was, and it drove me crazy. I know we

380
00:18:41.319 --> 00:18:45.000
shouldn't use such terms, but here we are, and I

381
00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:48.319
genuinely believe because it happens. I think it's why I'm

382
00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:50.799
a good journalist. Sometimes when someone lies to me, I

383
00:18:50.960 --> 00:18:55.519
just get obsessive about finding out the truth. And the

384
00:18:55.599 --> 00:18:58.160
thing that really broke me in these situations was not

385
00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:00.680
that the person was dating someone, but it was that

386
00:19:00.759 --> 00:19:02.440
I wasn't sure how it was going to end up.

387
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:04.799
I didn't know whether they were going to be together

388
00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:07.400
for a long time and I would be welcomed into

389
00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:11.279
their friendship group, or whether they would leave me as

390
00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:13.119
a result of this new relationship. And it was me

391
00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:18.279
trying to find out that was just crippling totally. And

392
00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:20.359
I can prove that actually just quickly I can prove

393
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:23.160
that because in a few situations the person did date

394
00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:25.359
someone for three months and then it became sort of

395
00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:28.559
a long term thing, and it just finished this feeling

396
00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:32.119
that I had this complete up ending, but if completely

397
00:19:32.119 --> 00:19:33.880
went away, as if nothing had ever happened.

398
00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:35.319
It's interesting, isn't it.

399
00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:40.160
We all have two varying degrees difficulty tolerating uncertainty, and

400
00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:43.359
I think particularly the more chaotic or the more unpredictable,

401
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:47.880
or the more uncertain, then the lower your tolerance for

402
00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:51.359
that ambiguity. And we go about all sorts of ways

403
00:19:51.400 --> 00:19:54.000
trying to put things in place in our lives to

404
00:19:54.039 --> 00:19:56.960
try to minimize ambiguity and unsernish.

405
00:19:57.119 --> 00:19:58.400
I mean, because I had to be I had to

406
00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:00.599
be tolerant it to it for so long, and I

407
00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:02.880
didn't realize. It's kind of like a fish in the ocean, right.

408
00:20:02.920 --> 00:20:05.640
You don't realize that you're swimming in water until you're

409
00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:07.920
out of it, and then you're like, anything that's even

410
00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:09.759
mildly uncertain then just sets you off.

411
00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:10.680
Through this process.

412
00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:16.319
Rick like you're you said, you're seeing therapists, you've generalized

413
00:20:16.359 --> 00:20:19.279
anxiety disorder, or there's this, or there's this, like through

414
00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:20.720
that process.

415
00:20:21.400 --> 00:20:23.599
How much did I guess you come.

416
00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:27.920
To understand things like, you know, your attachment style.

417
00:20:28.119 --> 00:20:31.119
You know, as a psychologist you're.

418
00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:33.759
Talking about, you know, somebody with an say, an anxious

419
00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:35.720
or an avoid at attachment style. Somebody with an anxious

420
00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:40.960
attachment style, they'd say, becomes especially sensitive to any signal

421
00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:44.200
or queue of a possible rejection.

422
00:20:45.079 --> 00:20:48.000
Like what did you learn things like that about yourself?

423
00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:50.559
Oh? I don't think I did. And I'm trying to think, like,

424
00:20:50.599 --> 00:20:52.680
I mean, I know that there were we did go

425
00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:55.480
through schemas at one point, but I think there was

426
00:20:55.480 --> 00:20:58.720
with the therapists who diagnosed with the complex post traumatic

427
00:20:58.759 --> 00:21:02.839
stress disorder. Before that, I'd never heard of schemas. I

428
00:21:02.839 --> 00:21:06.160
certainly don't remember anything beyond oh, yeah, you've got an

429
00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:09.720
attachment issue, which is that your dad left you. But

430
00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:12.079
really it was all about it and I can understand why.

431
00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:17.039
But it was cognitive behavioral therapy, right, and so I'm

432
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:21.079
sure of works. I've got no doubt about it, except

433
00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:25.240
except it never fucking worked for me, because every time

434
00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:27.880
I went to the therapist was when I was having

435
00:21:27.880 --> 00:21:32.559
a mental breakdown. I was in acute stress, acute acute

436
00:21:32.599 --> 00:21:37.680
stress distress. I should say and at no point with

437
00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:40.400
any of the seven or eight psychologists that I have seen,

438
00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:44.759
including one psychiatrist actually so nine that I've seen over

439
00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:48.480
theirs decade, at no point was I in the state

440
00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:51.359
of mind to take on board anything that they were saying.

441
00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:54.759
For good reason, right Like I, we're all trained in

442
00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:57.440
CBT in psychology.

443
00:21:57.559 --> 00:22:00.400
I've never been a massive fan. Never worked for me either.

444
00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:04.480
Ironically, this book for me was cognitive behavioral therapy, but

445
00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:06.720
I wrote it from a place of me being relatively

446
00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:08.920
mentally stable, and I had money for the first time

447
00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:10.440
in my life, so I could actually afford to take

448
00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:13.200
care of myself, which meant that I was cooking and exercising.

449
00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:16.640
Great mental health care is you know, something is for

450
00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:19.000
the privileged, for you who can really afford to take it?

451
00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:22.000
Really fuck it is. So I'm trying to keep my

452
00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:26.599
swearing down, but people ask me. They're like, oh, so,

453
00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:30.039
you know, did you write this book to help yourself?

454
00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:32.000
And I'm like, well, yeah, But also I think I

455
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:36.640
could only write the book because I had money, not

456
00:22:36.759 --> 00:22:38.960
heat some money, but enough that I didn't have to

457
00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:40.440
worry for the first time in my life.

458
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:45.160
I believe I need to say cognitive behavioral therapy has

459
00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:47.960
its place. It's certainly one of the fundamental things that

460
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:50.119
I teach people as a therapist and as a coach

461
00:22:50.200 --> 00:22:53.160
I do both, is that the thoughts that you think

462
00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:55.599
are clearly going to have an impact on the way

463
00:22:55.640 --> 00:22:58.200
that you feel. And sometimes you have automatic thoughts about things,

464
00:22:58.200 --> 00:23:01.839
and they they're not rational, they're from some early experience

465
00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:04.480
and let's just be aware of them, right. So that's

466
00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:07.599
of course that has its place. There are people out there,

467
00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:10.400
can I say, in particularly in the life coaching world,

468
00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:15.680
who teach that model as the answer to everything, change

469
00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:19.640
your thoughts and chant you and good as gold, and

470
00:23:19.720 --> 00:23:21.279
it drives me wild.

471
00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:23.559
And to them, I would like to say a big

472
00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:25.640
fu yes.

473
00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:27.000
So would I. So would I.

474
00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:30.920
So what you have experienced is the way trauma lives

475
00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:35.519
in your body, and anything in your world can trigger

476
00:23:35.559 --> 00:23:38.839
a visceral reaction in your body, and it is stored

477
00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:41.240
in a part of your brain that is not accessible.

478
00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:43.599
It's not in your prefrontal.

479
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:46.599
Cortex, no at all. And that I mean, that's what

480
00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:48.640
I find so well, It's fascinating to me now but

481
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:55.079
also scary because I'm not a dumb person. I am

482
00:23:55.519 --> 00:24:00.960
relatively intelligent emotionally, probably very undercooked, to be quite honest about.

483
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:05.599
But I journey, you know, as my mum would say

484
00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:07.440
when I was growing up, for somebody so fucking smart,

485
00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:10.119
you've got no common sense, and she was right, but

486
00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:17.759
I was. I don't. I still cannot properly describe the

487
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:20.920
feeling of being hijacked by a part of myself that

488
00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:25.119
I can't access. It is scary as hell, and it

489
00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:28.920
is wild to me that we think talk therapy will

490
00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:34.240
get you all the way through that, because it can't.

491
00:24:34.279 --> 00:24:36.079
I mean, I'll just very briefly tell you about the

492
00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:38.079
very first time I saw a psychologist after I was

493
00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:41.400
at university, which I barely count because I can't even

494
00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:44.359
I didn't even remember it until that psychologists got in

495
00:24:44.359 --> 00:24:47.119
touch with me after this book came out, but I

496
00:24:48.039 --> 00:24:50.720
saw it was on Medicare. I was a bulk build

497
00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:53.960
psychologist in Newtown. God bless her. But it was one

498
00:24:53.960 --> 00:24:56.839
of the worst experiences of my life because I was

499
00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:00.680
at the very early stages of these role series of

500
00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:03.440
complete catastrophes in my life that I did not understand

501
00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:05.519
at all. At that point, I'm like, wife is happening

502
00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:09.039
to me? And this psychologist just gives me like a

503
00:25:09.079 --> 00:25:11.960
photocopied book that's bound together. It's like two hundred and

504
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:14.319
fifty pages or something like that of a four sheets

505
00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:18.039
of what is essentially an XCEL spreadsheet, where I had

506
00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:21.920
to write down in fifteen or half hour blocks everything

507
00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:25.680
that I was thinking, feeling, eating, or doing. And I'm like,

508
00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:29.680
I'm not showering, like I'm not looking after myself right now.

509
00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:33.599
I'm absolutely not in a position to live more inside

510
00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:35.279
my head than I already am. I just I am

511
00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:38.559
not functioning. And that was pretty much that. It was

512
00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:42.279
just so dispiriting that that was my first proper experience

513
00:25:42.359 --> 00:25:45.160
with a psychologist, because that's what they're funded to do.

514
00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:48.279
And it's heartbreaking because it does leave people feeling like

515
00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:50.640
there's no hope, Like if this is what psychology has

516
00:25:50.680 --> 00:25:53.079
got to offer me, and this is all there is,

517
00:25:53.160 --> 00:25:54.279
then what hope.

518
00:25:54.119 --> 00:25:55.680
I thought I was done for? I thought I was

519
00:25:55.720 --> 00:25:56.039
done for.

520
00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:02.720
I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the

521
00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:05.680
benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are

522
00:26:05.799 --> 00:26:08.519
enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe

523
00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:10.880
so that you get notified when you apps drop and

524
00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:13.400
head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen

525
00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:23.240
and leave us a rating and review. You describe in

526
00:26:23.240 --> 00:26:27.079
the book a process of neuro feedback, which I was

527
00:26:27.160 --> 00:26:30.240
fascinated by because I'm not familiar with that, but I

528
00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:31.160
found it fascinating.

529
00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:35.079
Can you describe what that was about and what you learned?

530
00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:38.440
Yeah, I mean, I good question, because I mean I'd

531
00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:41.359
never heard of it either. Neurofeedback is essentially a way

532
00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:46.279
to try and trick your brain into behaving itself via

533
00:26:46.279 --> 00:26:48.039
the use of they put electrodes on your head. The

534
00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:50.119
best example is they put all these electrodes on your head.

535
00:26:50.119 --> 00:26:51.920
There's brain waves that are meant to be in certain

536
00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:57.960
quadrants and frequencies that in a healthy person look certain

537
00:26:58.200 --> 00:27:00.000
a certain way. And so what they try to do,

538
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:02.720
who is pick the frequency that is best for the

539
00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:04.880
different parts of your brain to be in and then

540
00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:07.599
set a protocol, and then you watch a game of

541
00:27:07.640 --> 00:27:11.079
pac Man with the electrodes on your head. Now, when

542
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:14.200
your brain waves are in the right range, pac Man

543
00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:17.559
goes and he eats all the lollives and you're watching

544
00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:20.680
him go. But when your brain waves are outside of

545
00:27:20.680 --> 00:27:23.440
the healthy range or the range that they're trying to promote,

546
00:27:24.599 --> 00:27:27.720
he stops, he freezes. Now you can't and they say

547
00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:30.119
this to you, you can't control pac Man, you can't

548
00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:33.240
do it. Your brain will figure out on its own

549
00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:38.960
eventually that the reward is to tweak those brainwaves and eventually,

550
00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:42.240
over time it will get better. And I would love

551
00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:44.759
to know the answer to that. But COVID came along,

552
00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:48.079
and because it's a very touch intensive thing, at the

553
00:27:48.119 --> 00:27:50.759
very bit they put gel in your ears, they're up

554
00:27:50.759 --> 00:27:52.680
close and personal, and so I just had to interrupt

555
00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:55.519
it halfway through. What I do know is that, for

556
00:27:55.640 --> 00:27:58.039
reasons I can't explain, after those sessions, I felt like

557
00:27:58.079 --> 00:28:00.240
I'd been hit by a bus on the line lass

558
00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:02.079
one that I did, I fell asleep, like I got

559
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:05.200
home and I fell literally passed out for like four hours.

560
00:28:05.799 --> 00:28:08.559
It was wild and literally all you had been doing

561
00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:11.720
is looking at something happening on a screen, just.

562
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:13.640
Sitting in a chair doing what I do for work,

563
00:28:13.880 --> 00:28:15.839
which is sitting in a chair and looking at a screen.

564
00:28:16.839 --> 00:28:18.640
One of them, I got to watch The Matrix, which

565
00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:21.440
was also very funny. It was a show about whether

566
00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:24.079
you're in control of your life. The principles the same,

567
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:26.119
like if your brain's not doing what it's supposed to do.

568
00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:29.519
There's this kind of opaque white cloud that develops over

569
00:28:29.559 --> 00:28:31.160
the film and you get annoyed because you're like, I

570
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:34.880
want to watch the film, and so that disappears. If

571
00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:36.839
your brain ways are doing what they're meant to do.

572
00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:39.160
It's fascinating, really, isn't it.

573
00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:43.160
And it's very similar in concept to well, not exactly,

574
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:45.559
but like emdr which is the other thing I've read about,

575
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:49.720
which which is about it like it's an embodied thing, right.

576
00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:51.519
They're trying to get to the parts of the not

577
00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:52.960
the parts of the body, but they're trying to reach

578
00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:59.079
into your body to extract understanding or change in a

579
00:28:59.079 --> 00:29:01.480
way that talk there a big can't do. Because I've talked,

580
00:29:02.359 --> 00:29:04.160
I can talk about this until the cows come home.

581
00:29:04.279 --> 00:29:06.359
And I'm not saying it's not helpful, because there was

582
00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:08.200
a point where I didn't have language for what's happening

583
00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:10.559
to me, and that was scary as hell and I

584
00:29:10.599 --> 00:29:12.960
was in the dark, and getting that language brought me.

585
00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:14.599
It was kind of leveled up, as like playing a

586
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:16.759
video game character, like I leveled up to the next level.

587
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:20.640
But you can't fight the final boss of trauma just

588
00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:24.079
with talk therapy you need, you need the potions and

589
00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:27.000
the spells in the subconscious to do that.

590
00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:29.079
Yeah, I believe that as well.

591
00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:31.720
I'm not trained in EMDR. But the other one that

592
00:29:31.759 --> 00:29:34.559
I'm really into is EFT tapping. This whole tapping on.

593
00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:37.559
You complete news to me.

594
00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:41.440
Oh you're not heard of tapping. No, so it's.

595
00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:43.960
I've got terrible rhythm, but go on, So.

596
00:29:43.960 --> 00:29:50.480
For yet, all good, just quickly for listeners. EMDR is iye,

597
00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:56.480
movement desensitization reprocessing, I think, is what EMDR stands for,

598
00:29:56.519 --> 00:29:58.480
and it is is a form of therapy where you

599
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:02.599
move your eyes, is my understanding, and it does something

600
00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:04.480
can rewise your brain and you don't actually have to.

601
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:06.839
Talk about your trauma, but you.

602
00:30:07.319 --> 00:30:09.799
Think about it while you're doing these eye movements. And

603
00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:12.920
but there is loads of evidence now for it. These

604
00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:15.759
things seem so woo woo and so out there.

605
00:30:15.559 --> 00:30:18.720
And it sounds crazy and they actually work.

606
00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:22.759
So ef T tapping it's called EFT stands for Emotional

607
00:30:22.839 --> 00:30:25.799
Freedom technique. But it again, it came out of this

608
00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:28.920
really weird sort of energy healing thing, but it somehow

609
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:33.079
worked for people. And it involves connecting with your whatever

610
00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:37.279
is distressing or uncomfortable or you know, an unhelpful belief

611
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:40.640
for example, like I'm a shit person, or a feeling

612
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:43.480
of emotional distress, something that causes stress in your body.

613
00:30:43.559 --> 00:30:47.240
So it's quite universally applicable anything that causes you to

614
00:30:47.319 --> 00:30:51.279
feel some level of distress. And then you as you

615
00:30:51.279 --> 00:30:54.319
connect with that, you tap on these pressure points on

616
00:30:54.440 --> 00:30:59.440
your face and you know, upper body basically, and again.

617
00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:02.920
It dissolves. It dissolves.

618
00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:05.079
I mean, I absolutely believe that.

619
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:06.079
And what happens.

620
00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:09.359
And the very first studies of e FT tapping were

621
00:31:09.519 --> 00:31:14.319
with PTSD and combat veterans, and they it's far more

622
00:31:14.319 --> 00:31:15.240
effective than CBT.

623
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:16.960
It works faster, and it lasts longer.

624
00:31:17.319 --> 00:31:19.039
And now they've done studies on a whole lot of

625
00:31:19.079 --> 00:31:21.400
other different populations.

626
00:31:20.759 --> 00:31:23.079
And problems physical pain, chronic pain.

627
00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:27.440
Psychological struggles, trauma, anxiety, and it works and it lasts,

628
00:31:27.960 --> 00:31:33.279
and there's hundreds of research, you know, clinical research trials

629
00:31:33.319 --> 00:31:34.759
now that support its effectiveness.

630
00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:37.119
So it's now being becoming quite mainstream.

631
00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:41.160
It just makes me so sad just looking back on it,

632
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:44.640
like the amount of times I just left a psychologists

633
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:47.400
room not to mention the fucking GPS to get my

634
00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:49.880
mental health care plan I've never had a good GP.

635
00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:54.720
I don't dislike GPS. I know people who have amazing ones,

636
00:31:55.039 --> 00:31:57.079
but I personally have never had a good one. In fact,

637
00:31:57.119 --> 00:32:00.000
I've had ones that maybe want to hurt myself because

638
00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:02.759
of the experience of trying to like get this thing.

639
00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:06.519
But yeah, just looking back on and like the psychologists

640
00:32:06.519 --> 00:32:09.119
who are kind of handstrung because of the funding system

641
00:32:09.400 --> 00:32:12.240
in Australia, the way Medicare works the same with the GPS.

642
00:32:12.279 --> 00:32:14.319
The hamstrung in terms how much time they can spend

643
00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:16.960
with you. And none of this stuff is set up

644
00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:19.160
to deal with any kind of chronic health, which requires

645
00:32:19.240 --> 00:32:22.039
time and attention and effort, and mental health is one

646
00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:23.680
of the biggest chronic health problems we've got.

647
00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:25.960
Yeah, it is rick.

648
00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:30.240
You make the distinction in the book between knowing what

649
00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:35.079
it means to be vulnerable and actually being vulnerable.

650
00:32:35.319 --> 00:32:40.119
Oh god, I'm guilty of failing on this, do you

651
00:32:40.119 --> 00:32:47.000
know what? So I started dating someone this year because

652
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:48.839
it was kind of to me as the final frontier.

653
00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:51.440
And the thing is I wasn't They were very attractive,

654
00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:56.480
but I wasn't really into them, except that it became exciting,

655
00:32:57.359 --> 00:32:59.759
and then after a few weeks It became like a

656
00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:02.400
or because I am not used to spending so much

657
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:05.759
time with other people and I'm really bad at sharing myself,

658
00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:08.319
and so it felt like work. And I was like, oh, fuck,

659
00:33:08.359 --> 00:33:10.440
I don't want to do this. But in my head,

660
00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:13.319
I'm like, no, you wrote a whole book about being vulnerable.

661
00:33:13.319 --> 00:33:15.400
You've got to be open to this anyway. Can I

662
00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:17.240
just tell you that was one of the biggest mistakes

663
00:33:17.240 --> 00:33:21.440
I've ever made in my doe. It did not end well.

664
00:33:21.640 --> 00:33:22.759
It did not end well.

665
00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:24.920
Out really no, Oh, that's disappointing.

666
00:33:25.559 --> 00:33:28.000
It added in a way that was actually harmful to me,

667
00:33:28.519 --> 00:33:30.559
probably to both of us, but certainly to me in

668
00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:33.119
a way that probably set me back. And I realized

669
00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:35.519
I made a mistake, I think, and I think my

670
00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:39.559
mistake was confusing vulnerability and being open to something with

671
00:33:39.759 --> 00:33:42.039
ignoring the rational part of your brain that is also

672
00:33:42.039 --> 00:33:44.279
there to help protect you. And so it is a

673
00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:47.920
finely balanced thing, right. But I do genuinely believe that

674
00:33:47.960 --> 00:33:49.839
if with the people in your life that you do

675
00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:53.519
love and that you do have relationships with, being vulnerable

676
00:33:54.240 --> 00:33:56.799
cannot hurt you. In fact, it's never done anything but

677
00:33:56.960 --> 00:33:59.559
prop me up and make me better, make me a

678
00:33:59.559 --> 00:34:03.039
better person. It doesn't mean that you need to like

679
00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:05.000
every time you see someone you love and just be like,

680
00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:07.200
all right, now, open up to me and tell me.

681
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:10.519
You don't need no, Just hug your friends, tell the

682
00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:13.079
people you love you love them. And if you're going

683
00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:15.519
through a shitty time, tell people and ask for help.

684
00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:18.679
Like that's the core of it. It's not about being

685
00:34:19.079 --> 00:34:22.159
a newer energy person or any of that, and like,

686
00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:24.800
if that works for you, good on you. But it's

687
00:34:24.880 --> 00:34:28.119
not about any of those things. It's about being practical

688
00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:31.159
and not shutting yourself off from the world. I think

689
00:34:31.159 --> 00:34:33.239
that's the most important thing. And I say that as

690
00:34:33.239 --> 00:34:35.920
someone who's currently shutting off myself off from the world.

691
00:34:36.039 --> 00:34:36.679
Some here we go.

692
00:34:37.320 --> 00:34:40.880
You make a really good point there about self trust,

693
00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:45.360
about the impact of trauma on your ability to trust

694
00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:52.000
yourself to make good decisions or the right decisions for you. You also,

695
00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:56.639
I'm going back a little, you were sexually assaulted in

696
00:34:56.679 --> 00:35:03.360
your twenties and never really it seems like didn't actually

697
00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:07.159
make the connection that that was that wrong thing or.

698
00:35:07.159 --> 00:35:13.360
Wrong My best friend did and correctly made the decision

699
00:35:13.400 --> 00:35:16.639
to let me come to that understanding on my own

700
00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:18.480
because I don't think it would have worked for her

701
00:35:18.519 --> 00:35:21.960
to be like, you were raped, because I would have

702
00:35:21.960 --> 00:35:24.519
been like, huh no, and also why would you say that?

703
00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:28.079
But I was, and I did damage in ways that

704
00:35:28.119 --> 00:35:31.119
I'm still trying to understand because I thought it was funny.

705
00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:32.800
I told it as a funny story. I mean, I

706
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:35.079
didn't actually think it was funny. I think deep down

707
00:35:35.079 --> 00:35:36.800
I knew that it wasn't, but in order to deal

708
00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:38.280
with it, I had to make it funny. I thought

709
00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:40.440
it was what I wanted, even though I was so

710
00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:43.960
drunk and I was unable to communicate and I was

711
00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:46.800
raped by someone I didn't go home with. It was

712
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:51.199
these two other people in the house and who I

713
00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:53.719
didn't choose any of this stuff, and so it was

714
00:35:53.800 --> 00:35:55.159
kind of like, oh, well, I'm like, well, I went

715
00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:58.199
home with one person, but I guess I got the rest.

716
00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:01.880
Like it was just just really and I'm not comparing

717
00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:03.800
myself to them, but reading up on similar types of

718
00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:06.599
you know, children in particular who have been through abusive

719
00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:09.960
type situations or emotional abuse or neglect, and the Romanian

720
00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:12.679
orphanages is the one that really springs to mind because

721
00:36:12.679 --> 00:36:14.920
they did studies right on the kids who were ripped

722
00:36:14.920 --> 00:36:16.559
away from their parents, and they were not held, they

723
00:36:16.599 --> 00:36:20.880
were not touched, they were fed completely nutritious diet, but

724
00:36:20.920 --> 00:36:23.280
they didn't have any actual love in their life. And

725
00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:26.760
those kids, compared to kids who managed to spend some

726
00:36:26.840 --> 00:36:29.840
time in foster care versus kids who had never taken

727
00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:32.880
from their families, those kids were the most likely to

728
00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:35.880
answer the door to a stranger and the stranger asked

729
00:36:35.880 --> 00:36:37.440
them to go, hey, come with me, and they would

730
00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:40.760
just do it. They were so abused and so degraded

731
00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:44.679
by everyone in their life that what's one stranger, Why

732
00:36:44.679 --> 00:36:46.880
would you change your approach? And so there's a part

733
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:49.800
of the abused person in whatever shape or form that

734
00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:54.440
abuse happens where either you don't trust yourself to make

735
00:36:54.440 --> 00:36:57.960
the correct decision, or you just don't have the language

736
00:36:58.039 --> 00:37:00.199
or the ability to talk to think about it, so

737
00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:02.880
you just you do things that are ordinarily more dangerous

738
00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:05.199
or more harmful than someone who was raised with two

739
00:37:05.239 --> 00:37:08.639
parents in a loving home might do, for example. And

740
00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:11.360
I think that's why, you know, I certainly I get

741
00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:13.960
myself into situations and I'm not blaming myself for this,

742
00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:16.400
but the way I dealt with it was very much

743
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:19.559
a hallmark of oh well, that's I mean, it wasn't

744
00:37:19.559 --> 00:37:22.360
out of the normal like I did. I degraded myself

745
00:37:22.360 --> 00:37:25.400
in many other ways in my twenties, and then this

746
00:37:25.480 --> 00:37:28.400
relationship that ended really badly. It was never going to

747
00:37:28.440 --> 00:37:30.840
work out, and it was going to be really difficult

748
00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:32.920
if it did, for a whole bunch of reasons which

749
00:37:32.920 --> 00:37:35.519
I won't go into to protect the other person's privacy.

750
00:37:36.440 --> 00:37:40.800
But it was not going to be an emotionally sustainable thing.

751
00:37:41.159 --> 00:37:42.519
It was going to hurt both of us in the

752
00:37:42.519 --> 00:37:45.920
long term, I think, and that's not healthy. But I

753
00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:48.119
was just like, well, I guess this is what you

754
00:37:48.119 --> 00:37:50.280
need to do, which is just yeah, it's just not

755
00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:52.280
a way to go through life. I should point out

756
00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:56.760
I had never dated anyone before that point. I turned

757
00:37:56.800 --> 00:37:58.360
thirty five in March, so I was, you know, and

758
00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:00.960
talent of thirty four turning thirty five, and this is

759
00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:05.199
the first time I've ever had, I guess, a boyfriend.

760
00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:07.559
We called each other boyfriend. At one point I was like, well,

761
00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:09.079
that seemed strange to me.

762
00:38:09.320 --> 00:38:13.440
I have heard or read somewhere that people who have

763
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:19.320
experienced trauma tend to be like later with everything. I thought, yeah,

764
00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:23.239
that makes sense like, oh, yeah, everything's still late.

765
00:38:23.960 --> 00:38:26.199
I'm a child still because I mean I got frozen

766
00:38:26.239 --> 00:38:28.119
in time. I got frozen in time at the age

767
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:30.639
of seven, essentially, which is a strange thing to say

768
00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:34.000
out loud, because I'm otherwise successful. I have an amazing

769
00:38:34.039 --> 00:38:38.000
life in many respects, but I have missed every major

770
00:38:38.039 --> 00:38:41.119
developmental milestone. You know, I did the first time ever

771
00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:43.239
dated someone, and I was just like, I was like

772
00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:45.199
going to the zoo and be like, am I allowed

773
00:38:45.239 --> 00:38:47.880
to touch the monkey? Like it was just like a

774
00:38:47.920 --> 00:38:49.719
strange experience to have.

775
00:38:50.039 --> 00:38:52.199
Yeah, I thought that when I read that, it hadn't

776
00:38:52.199 --> 00:38:54.239
occurred to me before. And I thought that was a

777
00:38:54.280 --> 00:38:56.760
really useful thing for people to understand, because you can

778
00:38:56.840 --> 00:38:59.800
feel like, what's wrong with me or something when everything's

779
00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:02.760
you're almost like a decade behind everybody else because you

780
00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:05.199
spend so much time just trying to make up for.

781
00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:07.440
And it's like just make up for every and it's

782
00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:08.800
not to help by the fact that I was gay

783
00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:11.440
as well, like, which just kind of compounded it because

784
00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:13.880
I didn't get any of that. You know, I don't

785
00:39:13.880 --> 00:39:16.119
think I would have had the ability to do it

786
00:39:16.119 --> 00:39:18.760
anyway because of my childhood, but I didn't get to

787
00:39:18.800 --> 00:39:20.400
date anyone in high school. I didn't get to have

788
00:39:20.440 --> 00:39:23.360
a crush that I got to talk open. I had

789
00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:27.599
so many crushes on boys, but I couldn't tell a soul.

790
00:39:27.760 --> 00:39:30.559
I could not tell anyone. I remember seeing my first

791
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:33.960
real life gay couple when I was twenty and I

792
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:36.960
was at university, and I was so like, I'm like,

793
00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:39.639
you mean they just walk around and people know that

794
00:39:39.639 --> 00:39:42.280
they're together. Like it was like mind blowing to me.

795
00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:44.079
And I remember when I went to my best friend's

796
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:46.119
wedding and I invited my mom and what they invited

797
00:39:46.119 --> 00:39:48.320
my mom and my sister because we the families are

798
00:39:48.360 --> 00:39:52.159
close in twenty fifteen, and my sister left that because

799
00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:53.719
we had a mutual friend on our table, and she

800
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:55.239
left that she said to me, She's like, Rick, that's

801
00:39:55.239 --> 00:39:57.400
the first time I've seen a gay couple in real life.

802
00:39:57.519 --> 00:39:59.679
And I'm gay and they all knew that at this point.

803
00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:02.199
So it's just like all of these experiences that you

804
00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:05.079
might have had during the time when you're allowed to

805
00:40:05.079 --> 00:40:09.559
figure yourself out are suddenly happening or potentially happening at

806
00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:12.199
a time when you should have figured yourself out according

807
00:40:12.199 --> 00:40:16.320
to everyone else. And I haven't, and I don't know

808
00:40:16.360 --> 00:40:17.679
that I will ever catch up.

809
00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:20.159
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think the best thing we can

810
00:40:20.920 --> 00:40:25.320
I am really all about self compassion. Like again, I

811
00:40:25.360 --> 00:40:28.920
think trauma is the biggest, the problem, the fun foundation

812
00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:31.480
of all the problems in the world. And I think, honestly,

813
00:40:31.559 --> 00:40:34.280
self compassion is the answer to everything.

814
00:40:34.440 --> 00:40:36.599
It's the more we can be kind to.

815
00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:38.400
Ourselves and accept ourselves and be a little bit more

816
00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:42.920
tolerant and patient and forgiving of ourselves, the better off

817
00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:44.039
we will all be.

818
00:40:44.719 --> 00:40:49.800
It does set a good foundation I think for the

819
00:40:49.880 --> 00:40:52.360
way you go about yourself carrying yourself in the world.

820
00:40:52.760 --> 00:40:55.719
Last, but not least, your book is about trauma and

821
00:40:56.280 --> 00:41:01.199
it is laugh out loud funny in part crack me up.

822
00:41:01.679 --> 00:41:01.840
You know.

823
00:41:01.840 --> 00:41:05.559
I think we're just really coming to understand trauma better

824
00:41:05.800 --> 00:41:08.440
at the moment. But I also saw some meme on

825
00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:12.159
Instagram recently about the funniest people are.

826
00:41:12.039 --> 00:41:15.920
The traumatized people? One hundred right, what's your take on that?

827
00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:18.519
I mean, the funniest people that I've ever met, and

828
00:41:18.559 --> 00:41:23.159
I mean this as a group. First Nations people in Australia,

829
00:41:23.480 --> 00:41:29.719
the most brutalized, colonized, you know, victims of racism, subjective

830
00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:33.719
to just like dehumanizing forces every day of their existence, right,

831
00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:36.719
And they are the funniest people I've ever met. And

832
00:41:36.760 --> 00:41:39.079
I you know, one of my favorite people is Ronnie Gorri,

833
00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:42.559
who wrote the book Black and Blue. And she makes

834
00:41:42.599 --> 00:41:44.679
me laugh because like I remember we were doing a

835
00:41:44.760 --> 00:41:46.840
right Assessal event together and that we'll just talk about

836
00:41:46.840 --> 00:41:50.519
whether we need a lectern and she's like, no, I

837
00:41:50.519 --> 00:41:52.519
need the leg turn. We can't all be fucking Einstein

838
00:41:52.599 --> 00:41:55.079
over here in points at me. And she reminded me

839
00:41:55.119 --> 00:41:56.639
so much of my mum. And I think there's and

840
00:41:56.639 --> 00:42:00.880
I'm not comparing you know, our white trash struggled First

841
00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:06.119
Nations people. But the struggle of some sort does require

842
00:42:06.159 --> 00:42:08.239
of the person. I think, if you've survived it, it

843
00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:11.599
requires a sense of humor. In fact, it may build

844
00:42:11.639 --> 00:42:13.920
the sense of humor. I'm not sure and the cause

845
00:42:13.960 --> 00:42:15.800
and effect there, but I know that for a fact

846
00:42:15.800 --> 00:42:18.159
that my mum is one of the funniest people that

847
00:42:18.199 --> 00:42:20.679
I've ever met, and that together me and my mum

848
00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:24.719
and my sister like just hows of laughter about things

849
00:42:24.719 --> 00:42:27.079
that you probably shouldn't say in public.

850
00:42:27.159 --> 00:42:32.199
Right, Yeah, badly, I get that, Yeah, yeah, no.

851
00:42:32.199 --> 00:42:34.440
And it's like, and it's it's because I mean, what

852
00:42:34.519 --> 00:42:36.400
else is there? Right? And I know everyone says if

853
00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:40.400
you don't laugh, your crime, but it's actually true. But also,

854
00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:43.960
and I genuinely mean this, like, I think the people

855
00:42:43.960 --> 00:42:46.119
who get offended at those types of things or those

856
00:42:46.199 --> 00:42:49.159
senses of humor, I'm like, I'm not talking about people

857
00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:51.800
like making jokes about minorities or something like that, but

858
00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:54.800
just about their own experiences in life. The people who

859
00:42:54.840 --> 00:42:57.119
can't handle that are people who haven't really had to

860
00:42:57.159 --> 00:43:01.559
go through anything terrible, and fuck I wish that was me.

861
00:43:01.719 --> 00:43:04.639
Good good luck to them. But like at Rider's festivals

862
00:43:04.639 --> 00:43:06.280
and things like that, there's often one or two people

863
00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:08.199
who were just like, oh, I couldn't. I just couldn't.

864
00:43:08.360 --> 00:43:11.679
I couldn't read your book. I couldn't finish it because

865
00:43:11.719 --> 00:43:15.199
it was just too horrible, and not because they were

866
00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:16.920
being triggered by it because of their own background, but

867
00:43:16.920 --> 00:43:21.039
because they had never been exposed to it, and which

868
00:43:21.079 --> 00:43:24.559
is fair. It's fucking hard reading sometimes, but also it's

869
00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:27.599
like have a laugh, like we're here to walk you

870
00:43:27.639 --> 00:43:32.599
through it, and that's probably the greatest gift that you

871
00:43:32.599 --> 00:43:34.119
can get from an experience like that.

872
00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:35.159
I think, Yeah, and.

873
00:43:35.159 --> 00:43:36.519
I just wanted to make sure I make that point

874
00:43:36.519 --> 00:43:39.159
because it is a really it is a really good read,

875
00:43:39.480 --> 00:43:41.280
and it is why you know, I was really keen

876
00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:42.639
to go back and read your first book as well,

877
00:43:42.679 --> 00:43:46.440
because you articulate so well and it's very relatable and

878
00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:50.920
hilarious for some dark content like there's it's it is

879
00:43:51.679 --> 00:43:53.480
laugh out loud funny in part, and.

880
00:43:53.639 --> 00:43:55.280
Like, I mean, the thing that I've learned, and I

881
00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:56.559
know we're out of time, but the thing that I've

882
00:43:56.599 --> 00:44:00.840
learned is that even in the darkest moments, the moments

883
00:44:01.079 --> 00:44:01.920
there is comedy.

884
00:44:02.119 --> 00:44:05.039
Rick, Thank you so much for your time, and thank

885
00:44:05.079 --> 00:44:07.800
you for turning your experience into a book. You said

886
00:44:07.840 --> 00:44:10.320
it wasn't your intention, but I'm very glad personally that

887
00:44:10.440 --> 00:44:12.480
you did, and it's been a pleasure.

888
00:44:12.840 --> 00:44:13.199
Yeah.

889
00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:16.519
So why it's a very special book to be that

890
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:19.000
book because I still read it for myself sometimes just

891
00:44:19.039 --> 00:44:21.519
to remind myself of yeah, just to remind myself that

892
00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:24.800
you did think this and you do believe this, and

893
00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:26.599
it's a constant project.

894
00:44:26.920 --> 00:44:29.000
It did occur to me that in the year of

895
00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:32.440
living vulnerable, writing the book seems like probably the most

896
00:44:32.519 --> 00:44:33.679
vulnerable thing.

897
00:44:33.960 --> 00:44:37.880
Oh god, it almost killed me. It was just not

898
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:40.360
necessarily because of the emotions, although that was definitely part

899
00:44:40.400 --> 00:44:42.599
of it, and COVID happened obviously, and I was like,

900
00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:45.280
oh God, but it was just all of that with

901
00:44:45.320 --> 00:44:49.559
the combination of having to do this incredible workload. I

902
00:44:48.599 --> 00:44:53.320
just I'm just not built for that. I'm fundamentally a

903
00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:57.119
very lazy person. I just want to live my life

904
00:44:57.119 --> 00:44:57.679
and be happy.

905
00:44:57.760 --> 00:44:59.719
You know, yeah, don't we all, don't we all?

906
00:45:00.039 --> 00:45:03.840
Well, I appreciate I appreciate that you made that you made.

907
00:45:03.679 --> 00:45:06.519
The effort for all of our benefit. Thank you, Thank you.

908
00:45:06.599 --> 00:45:14.119
Cash Rick's book is called My Year of Living Vulnerably.

909
00:45:14.239 --> 00:45:16.599
It's available right now in all bookstores.

910
00:45:17.039 --> 00:45:19.400
If you love Crapy to Happy, please do make sure

911
00:45:19.400 --> 00:45:22.039
that you subscribe, leave a review, and come and.

912
00:45:21.960 --> 00:45:23.000
Follow me on socials.

913
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:28.639
I'm cast done underscore XO on Instagram or TikTok castdone

914
00:45:28.760 --> 00:45:32.519
dot XO on Facebook. I cannot wait to catch you

915
00:45:32.559 --> 00:45:39.280
on the next episode of Crappy to Happy.

916
00:45:39.840 --> 00:45:40.280
Listener