April 8, 2025

How I was Recruited into a Cult with Carli McConkey

How I was Recruited into a Cult with Carli McConkey
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How I was Recruited into a Cult with Carli McConkey
How I was Recruited into a Cult with Carli McConkey
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Season 14 Personal Growth & Healing

Carli McConkey was a naive 21yr old seeking self-improvement when she was recruited into a new age cult where she spent over 13yrs trapped and enslaved. Carli bravely shares her experience of being manipulated, coerced, and abused, explaining the psychological tactics employed by cult leaders to maintain control.

After finally escaping, Carli’s struggles continued when she fought and won a defamation lawsuit brought upon her by her former cult leader. She also shares her frustration that her cult leader is currently a registered psychologist in Australia and the UK, despite regulatory bodies in both countries being made aware of the judges' rulings in this case.Carli sheds light on the complexities of recovery from cult abuse.

Through sharing her story, she educates us about the red flags of cults, and highlights the importance of professionals being equipped to support cult survivors in the aftermath of their experience.

For support and websites referenced in this episode:

Cult Information and Family Support (CIFS) Australia
https://www.cifs.org.au/
Cult Education Institute (Rick Ross)
https://culteducation.com/
Connect with Carli
www.carlimcconkey.com

Connect with Cass:

www.cassdunn.com
www.instagram.com/cassdunn_xo

Contact Crappy to Happy:

Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
www.crappytohappypod.com
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypod
www.tiktok.com/@crappytohappypod


Are you a coach, therapist, service provider or solopreneur struggling with self-doubt and imposter syndrome? I'd love to talk to you! (for market research purposes only!)

Book a call with me to share your experience.

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Chapters

00:00 - Untitled

01:01 - Untitled

01:05 - Introduction to Crappy to Happy

01:38 - Carly's Journey into a Cult: The Beginning

11:47 - The Final Step: Mind Control Techniques Unveiled

18:23 - Reflections on Cult Experiences

26:41 - The Transition from Indoctrination to Awareness

36:03 - The Turning Point: Recognizing the Cult

40:35 - Rebuilding After Trauma: The Journey of Healing

47:02 - Facing the Past: The Courtroom Battle

Transcript
WEBVTT

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This is Crappita Happy and I am your host, Cas Doune.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist. I'm mindfulness meditation teacher

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and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In

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this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent

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people who are experts in their field and who have

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something of value to share that will help you feel

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less crappy and more happy. Welcome back to Craffita Happy.

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My guest this week is carl McConkey. Carlie was your

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average twenty one year old, finished university feeling a little

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bit unsure of her direction when she enrolled in a

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personal development course which ultimately ended up being the pathway

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into a New Age doomsday cult. She then went on

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to spend all of her twenties and half of her

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thirties trapped, and obviously spent many many years afterwards recovering.

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Carli was courageous enough to write a book about her experience,

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which ultimately led to her being sued for defamation by

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the cult leader. And again Carl was brave enough to

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face her in court and to win that defamation case.

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I've been fascinated by the psychology of cults, like what

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leads people to join cults, why do they stay, how

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do they get involved for a long time, Which is

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why I was so interested to speak to a person

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who has actually had this experience and was willing to

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talk about what they went through. The other reason I'm

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really fascinated by this topic is because of the overlap

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that I see and that obviously exists between the psychology

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and the mindset of cults and conspiracy theories, and the

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tribalism that exists in politics these days, all of the

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US versus them mentality. I think that there is a

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lot here to be explored in more detail, because I

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think it's really easy to sit back and to hear

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a story like Carli's and to think, well, that would

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never be me. I would never be that foolish. I

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would never let myself get into that situation, almost victim blaming,

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but also other ring. Whereas I think if we step

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outside of the direct experience and actually look at some

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of the reasons why this happens. Our common human need

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for meaning, for a sense of identity, for a sense

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of belonging and purpose, our cognitive biases, our confirmation biases,

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the tribalism that we ourselves can get into. I just

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think there is something in this for all of us.

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For now, I'm just really grateful to Carli for her

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courage and for her honesty in sharing her story with me.

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There is so much more to this story that we

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didn't go into. Let's hear Carl's story. Carlin McConkey, Welcome

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to the Crappy to Happy Podcast.

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Thank you, chas lovely to be here.

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Calli. You spent over a decade, many years in a cult,

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experiencing some pretty harrowing abuse, as we'll talk about in

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a minute. I'm really curious to go back to the

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beginning to understand where were you at in life generally

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and in terms of your psychology, you know, emotionally, when

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you first encountered this organization, Like what was your first

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experience of them?

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I guess well, I had finished university in about the

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November December of the year before, and it was May

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of the following year, so it wasn't even sort of

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six months. And I had done communication at UNI public Relations,

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and I'd done an internship, and I just didn't know

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whether PR was for me, So I was very unsure

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about my direction. I had left school and gone to

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university in Country New South Wales at Bathurst, and so

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i'd been away from home for three years coming back

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and yeah, just very unsure about where I was at

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that stage. I was fairly sheltered, and I hadn't had

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a boyfriend yet, so you know, I was just I

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had a bit of low self esteem, to be honest.

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And also at the end of my first year of Uni,

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I had quite a shock. My mom told me that

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she had adopted out a daughter as a baby and

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her daughter had come back in contact with her, and

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so I had a sister. So that was a fairly

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traumatic experience in hindsight, because you know, just knowing that

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i'd sort of been lied to all those years, even

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though of course it's not something that you would talk about. Yeah,

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just everything was quite unsettled, and I had a lot

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of ambition and wanted to make a difference in the world.

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I'd also been Catholic up until I was nineteen, and

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then I moved more into sort of the spiritual New

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Age and started investigating that and reading a lot of books, etc.

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And so I went to the Mind, Body Spirit Festival

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in Sydney. I went to have a psyche reading. I'd

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had a couple before at UNI, and this particular psychic

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reader told me that to reach my potential and have

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great relationships, find my direction in life, etc. I should

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do this course called the Next Evolutionary Step. And she

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gave me a brochure and a tape and things like

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that and directed me to a stand at the Mind

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Body Spirit Festival. And when I went there, that's where

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I found out about this particular course, which is really

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what I know now to be the recruitment process that

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they went through at that time doing psychic readings and

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healings at the Mind Body Spirit Festival. So I took

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chattered with some people understand, and they told me that

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there was a free stage one seminar at the Hilton Hotel,

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which sounded very legitimate and promising in the June. So

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I went to that and then heard the woman who

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was very charismatic at the front, who had designed the programs,

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who ended up being the cult leader. She got people

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up who'd on the program and they all gave testimonials,

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et cetera, and then straight away I just signed up

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to do the first course, and that was in the July.

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So you were just out of Uni, you're like twenty

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twenty one. That's just such a familiar kind of a story.

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You know, I've been to the Mind, Body Spirit Festival

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in Sydney. I've probably had a psychic greeting there's Yeah,

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but that's so relatable. When you went to that first

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introductory session, Yes, and then you chose to go on

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and do one of their courses. Yes, you took your mom.

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I did. I actually took my mom and my sister,

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my half sister. You know, they wanted to come and

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support me. You know, my mom actually said at the time,

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just to make sure it's not a cult, even though

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cults weren't very well known back then. I remember her

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actually saying that. And we did the first program, and

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that was at a university in Sydney called mcquarie University,

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so again, you know, supposedly very legitimate place. It was

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a Thursday night, Friday night after work. It went to

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like eleven pm at night, and then you had to

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be back on the weekend on the Saturday and Sunday

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at nine am, so full day Saturday, full day Sunday,

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and then the Monday night was the graduation as such.

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And yeah, Essentially, what cults do is they recruit you

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right coercively and deceptively. So you know, I thought that

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I was doing this self development program that was a

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bit new age and that would help me reach my potential.

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But once they get you in, then they do what

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we call mind controlled techniques. So that whole sort of

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five night, two day course was all long sessions where

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this woman up the front, the designer of the programs,

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would talk and lecture to us about all wonderful things doing,

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you know, how to become psychic. She spoke about crystal,

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she spoke about healing the planet. We did a lot

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of meditation, We even did chanting. We did dancing every

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time we came in, so you're in this really hypermood.

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We were put onto a vegan diet and juicing fresh

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fruit juice about a leader, I think it was every day.

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There's also techniques called sleep deprivation and sensory deprivation. So

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our sleep deprivation was as I said, getting home, and

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she gave us exercises that we had to do. We

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had to listen to her meditation takes, and then the

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next morning we had to get up early and do

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lots of the juicing and get our food ready and

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things like that, so already your sleep is lacking. At

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that point, the sensory overload was just so many things

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were happening on that course. We went through all these processes.

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The biggest thing was what she termed accessing. She said

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that we had to clear our secular memory from this lifetime,

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our past lifetimes, and our ancestors, so that we could

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make a better world for our children, that we would

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get our health better and reach that potential that we

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were there to do. We had about eighty people on

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the course, and to do accessing, you had she brought

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out these big black mats that were about six foot

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by four foot, those big gymnasts mats, and there was

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eighty people just banging and yelling and screaming and crying

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and all that sort of thing. So it was really

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confronting for me. And yeah, there was one point where

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you know, I was huddled up with my mum in

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a corner and then the charismatic leader who became the

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cult leader, said something like, you know, why are you

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doing that. You need to take responsibility for yourself, And

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already she was separating me from my mum, so you know,

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in cult structures from the very beginning, it's divide and conquer,

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separate you from your family, your friends, and just really

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hone you on relying on that cult leader for everything.

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You know, you no longer rely on yourself. You look

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to them for all your answers to everything.

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Yeah, so there's a lot about that that almost can

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sound valid, some of those things, but then there's all

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of this other stuff interwoven exactly.

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And then what happened was at the end of that course,

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because our systems or our bodies and our mind emotions

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were just everywhere, like we felt a lot lighter because

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we'd gone through all of that sort of purging of

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emotions and things like that, we're at such a heightened stage.

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But we also still had a lot of fear, and

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we still had that feeling of sort of heaviness as well.

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And she said things like, to evolve, you need to

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continue to do these programs and I can help you,

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you know, I am the way. And so that was

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the July, and then I signed up for a course

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for September which was called University Healing, which was at

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her property in northern New South Wales, and that was

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a Friday night and all weekend course, which I did.

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I did that by myself. Then I signed up to

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one in the October, which was only a month later

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called the Final Step, and that was where the real

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mind control techniques were really supplanted and just thoroughly the

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foundation was laid, because in that one it was terrifying.

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We met at a university in Brisbane. The cult leader

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had said that you know, you only do this course

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once and you have to put everything into it. We

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weren't told anything about the courses. We were never told

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anything about the courses, and you were told that specifically

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that you were not allowed to tell anyone else what

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happened on each course. So we arrived there, the cult

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leader and all of her support team were standing at

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the front. They weren't smiling. They were sort of yelling

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and screaming. The cult leader was yelling, she was asking

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for our id, our wallets. We couldn't. We had to

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hand everything over and eventually, after hours and hours, what

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was probably about five hours, we were put We were

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marched out in a line onto a blackened out bus

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and we drove. We had no watches, we didn't know

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what time it was, we didn't know what was happening.

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We drove on a bus all blackened out for hours

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and hours, and eventually we weren't allowed to go to

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the toilet. She said that we could only go to

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the toilet when she told us we could so already.

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That was terrifying for me. And we ended up getting

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there to this property which was in the middle of nowhere.

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We had no idea where we were. Obviously mobile phones

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didn't exist then, but yeah, we didn't have any way

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to get home or contact anyone. So we were there,

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and then it was more lectures, more meditating, more chanting.

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We only had somewhere up to seventeen hours sleep, so

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we only had a couple of hours sleep per night,

219
00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:22.000
and we went without food for twenty four hours. Lots

220
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of yelling at us. She made us yell and scream

221
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at each other, bring issues up with each other, and

222
00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:30.240
there was just a whole heap of different stuff that

223
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really solidified those my control techniques. And I really believe

224
00:12:34.279 --> 00:12:36.519
that even from the first stage one seminar, I was

225
00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:39.679
already hooked and I was already indoctrinated. But if you

226
00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:42.159
weren't by that stage, the final step definitely did that.

227
00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:45.799
You talk about things like making you stand on a

228
00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:49.320
stage naked and talk about what you don't like about

229
00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:51.919
your body, have people tell you what they don't like

230
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about your body. These are the kinds of humiliation tactics. Basically,

231
00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:58.000
I just want people listening to understand the kinds of

232
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things that you were expo It wasn't just food deprivation,

233
00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:05.120
and it wasn't just like sleep deprivation. There were these

234
00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:08.600
very personal humilist tags humiliation.

235
00:13:08.720 --> 00:13:11.639
And so you can imagine a property where all we

236
00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:14.039
see is some trees and it sort of dirt all

237
00:13:14.039 --> 00:13:16.200
around us, and they had tents set up. There was

238
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two of us staying in a tent and we'd be

239
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listening to lectures into late into the night when it

240
00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:24.200
was totally dark, and then you know, we'd go to

241
00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:26.240
bed and we didn't know because we didn't have a watch,

242
00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:28.600
but two hours later we'd be woken up really suddenly,

243
00:13:28.639 --> 00:13:30.879
and then we had to get up and start it

244
00:13:30.879 --> 00:13:33.120
all over again. We used to have to do this run,

245
00:13:33.320 --> 00:13:35.360
and then after the run, yet we had a strip

246
00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:38.320
naked and we had to jump into this pond and

247
00:13:38.360 --> 00:13:40.440
we weren't allowed to get out of the pond until

248
00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:43.200
the colt leader told us we were allowed to and

249
00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:45.919
the time would only start when the last person got in,

250
00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:48.120
so all of us were just you know, peddling in

251
00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:51.360
this pond that I believe had leeches and we couldn't

252
00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:54.200
even see under it. It was dark, so that was terrifying.

253
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And then, as I mentioned, we were not allowed to

254
00:13:57.919 --> 00:14:00.960
go to the toilet until she'd we had sort of

255
00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:03.720
five minutes, and then there was only three portaloos and

256
00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:07.039
eighty people had to go to the toilet within you know,

257
00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:08.879
a five minute time frame, and if you missed out,

258
00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:10.759
you had to wait till the next one. It was

259
00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:16.039
all about, yeah, fear, humiliation. There was a process where, yeah,

260
00:14:16.039 --> 00:14:17.840
one night, in the middle of the night, when it

261
00:14:17.879 --> 00:14:22.080
was dark, we were in the big Marquee and there

262
00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:24.480
was a stage and first of all, we had our

263
00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:27.120
swimmers on, and then she said that if you can

264
00:14:27.320 --> 00:14:30.279
stand naked in front of people, you can do anything,

265
00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:33.120
you know, and we all got up and did it,

266
00:14:33.159 --> 00:14:36.120
one after the other, and yeah, it was complete humiliation.

267
00:14:36.360 --> 00:14:40.320
I just remember sweating and feeling horrible. And you had

268
00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:43.320
people who were from about seventeen years of age to

269
00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:46.559
like eighty years of age, men and women, boys and girls. Yeah,

270
00:14:46.679 --> 00:14:49.320
we had to say what we liked about our body,

271
00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:51.799
what we didn't, and then the people in the audience

272
00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:53.679
could come in as well. So yeah, they're just a

273
00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:54.960
few of the things that happened.

274
00:14:55.279 --> 00:14:58.120
So and all of this you've been told too that

275
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you're not to discuss with anybody, so there's no talking

276
00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:03.919
to your parents about this or getting anybody else's opinion

277
00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:04.559
about whether this.

278
00:15:04.919 --> 00:15:08.080
Yeah, and I think then at the end we were

279
00:15:08.120 --> 00:15:11.559
told to bring like a party outfit as well, and

280
00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:13.279
that got taken at the beginning, and then right at

281
00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:16.440
the end, after you've been through this, you know, seven

282
00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:20.360
nights and eight days of hell, then the last night

283
00:15:20.440 --> 00:15:22.559
is this big party, and of course you know you're

284
00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:24.480
happy in this, that and the other, and you're shell shocked,

285
00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:27.279
you know, what theF just happened to us. But it's

286
00:15:27.320 --> 00:15:30.080
that kind of duality as well, where you go through

287
00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:31.799
hell and then you have this one big party for

288
00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:34.480
one night and then it's like hell again. And that's

289
00:15:34.679 --> 00:15:37.960
kind of what happened through the whole process of those years.

290
00:15:38.080 --> 00:15:40.440
It was you know, the colleader might say one nice

291
00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:42.399
thing to you, but then you know she'll say one

292
00:15:42.440 --> 00:15:45.600
hundred really horrible things about you, and it's always this

293
00:15:45.879 --> 00:15:50.679
uphill battle and struggle to climb out of where you've been, and.

294
00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:53.799
What was your kind of mental state coming out the

295
00:15:53.840 --> 00:15:56.399
other side of that, because you went back again, right,

296
00:15:56.519 --> 00:16:00.519
So what's happening for you out of the other side

297
00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:01.639
of that horrible.

298
00:16:01.879 --> 00:16:06.519
I just think that I always felt like I had

299
00:16:06.519 --> 00:16:10.360
a lot of problems. You know, I was always self reflecting,

300
00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:12.759
trying to better myself. You know, I was a bit

301
00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:17.159
overweight back then, and I knew I wasn't perfect, and

302
00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:20.320
I really had this internal drive to keep going and

303
00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:25.000
evolve and get to you know, this enlightened state and

304
00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:28.840
I felt better, but I still felt very heavy and

305
00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:31.159
I had a lot of fear. So I knew that

306
00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:33.440
I had to keep going. And that just is what

307
00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:35.879
happened the whole way through. You know, I never felt

308
00:16:35.919 --> 00:16:38.519
like I was on the other side. And I think

309
00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:41.840
that's what the cult leader and cults do is there's

310
00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:44.639
always they're always dangling this carrot to say, you know,

311
00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:46.600
you're not there yet, you need to do more, go

312
00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:49.279
hi higher with your evolvement, et cetera. That's what they

313
00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:51.879
do the whole time. You know, they love bomb you.

314
00:16:51.879 --> 00:16:55.000
You know, the cult leader would verbally sort of abuse

315
00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:58.639
us and put us down, and then you know, she

316
00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:01.200
might lift you up one and then put you down

317
00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:04.119
a number of times, and it's just that game. And

318
00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:08.279
so you're never in a good place. And she said

319
00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:12.200
that you need to access the heavy emotions before you

320
00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:14.240
get to the lighter ones. And you know, we would

321
00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:16.279
just access the same thing over and over again, all

322
00:17:16.279 --> 00:17:18.799
these heavy emotions, and obviously there was no light ones,

323
00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:21.839
so you know, it really was an ongoing process.

324
00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:25.920
What you just describe sounds so similar to essentially being

325
00:17:25.960 --> 00:17:29.759
in a relationship with a narcissistic abuser. This constant erosion

326
00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:32.640
of your self esteem and your sense of self worth

327
00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:37.160
and then these like little, you know, crumbs of positive

328
00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:40.960
reinforcement that you then latch onto and you become just

329
00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:44.400
almost obsessed with getting more of that positive reinforcement because

330
00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:46.440
you're feeling so shit about yourself solutely, and then the

331
00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:48.759
other person who can make you feel better out there,

332
00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:52.839
they've told you and doctrinated you that they are the way.

333
00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:57.079
Yes, And when we're educating about cults, we always talk

334
00:17:57.119 --> 00:17:59.680
about the one on onine relationship, which is when you're

335
00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:03.240
with an or even a psychopath. So yeah, it's exactly

336
00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:06.440
the same thing coecive control, but on a grander scale,

337
00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:10.240
I guess, because you know, cults are always that the

338
00:18:10.359 --> 00:18:13.440
term cult. You know, people always either think that anyone

339
00:18:13.480 --> 00:18:15.279
who's been in a cult is an idiot, they got

340
00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:17.799
themselves in there, it's their fault. But you can just

341
00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:20.640
look at it as a gang mentality or peer pressure

342
00:18:21.160 --> 00:18:23.079
that you have that one on one, but it's on

343
00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:26.359
a grander scale, and you've got not only the cult

344
00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:28.519
leader that you have to contend with, but you've got

345
00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:31.279
a whole group of her supporters that you know, if

346
00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:33.599
you put one foot wrong, then you're going to have

347
00:18:33.640 --> 00:18:36.440
the whole of the group sick onto you, and not

348
00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:39.599
just one person. So I was going to say, yeah,

349
00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:41.160
I'm not going to say what's worse. You know, one

350
00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:44.559
on one is really horrible, horrible, but then also the

351
00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:47.799
group dynamic is is horrible as well in a grander scale.

352
00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:50.960
Yeah, I was actually going to mention that so with

353
00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:53.039
the one on one abuse and not that that's what

354
00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:55.160
we're here to talk about. Yes, but it's kind of

355
00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:58.559
you with your own head working out, am I the

356
00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:00.519
crazy one? This is the gas lighter thing is right

357
00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:03.240
like in my crazyes? Whereas in a cult. You've got

358
00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:06.440
a whole lot of people around who are they're enamored

359
00:19:06.440 --> 00:19:09.119
with this person, like they're telling you that this is amazing,

360
00:19:09.160 --> 00:19:13.359
and almost reinforcing that it is your issue, if you've

361
00:19:13.400 --> 00:19:17.279
got the issue, because we're all doing great, exactly. I'm

362
00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:19.720
just curious to know, just going back, So what was

363
00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:24.039
your mum's perception, I guess of that first weekend, and

364
00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:28.640
did she have any opinion about you choosing to go

365
00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:32.200
on to the next and the next at that time.

366
00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:36.119
I don't remember her actually saying anything about the fact

367
00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:39.079
that I was continuing. I know that my sister didn't

368
00:19:39.079 --> 00:19:42.759
want to do anything else. My sister had grown up

369
00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:45.839
pretty street wise, so she kind of clashed with the

370
00:19:46.519 --> 00:19:50.039
cult leader. I was more sheltered and you know, probably

371
00:19:50.039 --> 00:19:53.440
a mummy and daddy's girl, and I was very naive.

372
00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:57.079
I didn't I certainly wasn't street wise, and so the

373
00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:00.480
red flags and even all that fear that I was feeling,

374
00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:04.559
and even towards the cult leader, I wasn't recognizing and

375
00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:07.279
I wasn't admitting that, Hey, yeah, my gut feeling, my

376
00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:10.599
intuition is telling me that she's a really scary person.

377
00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:13.440
And I was turning it around to say, just to

378
00:20:13.480 --> 00:20:16.279
believe her in the fact that she was saying, if

379
00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:18.799
you are feeling like this, yes, and I can help

380
00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:21.480
you to not feel like that in the future, and

381
00:20:21.559 --> 00:20:24.480
I can help you have your dreams come true. So

382
00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:28.839
I don't remember my mum ever saying no, you shouldn't

383
00:20:28.839 --> 00:20:31.559
do this, and she never did do that. But back then,

384
00:20:31.960 --> 00:20:36.640
in the nineties, late nineties and even the early two thousands, cults,

385
00:20:36.839 --> 00:20:41.319
you know, the weird and wonderful cults over seas like

386
00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:46.480
Waco and Jonestown, etc. They were very extreme that people

387
00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:49.440
didn't correlate what happened there to what was happening to

388
00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:53.039
us and other groups in Australia, so there still wasn't

389
00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:56.759
a word for it, you know. Fast forward to about

390
00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:58.680
two thousand and seven, when a lot of people had

391
00:20:58.759 --> 00:21:02.119
left this our cult, there was people who started speaking

392
00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:05.319
up about it, and that's when they, you know, termed

393
00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:07.359
it a cult. And my parents heard, oh, yes, this

394
00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:10.079
is a cult, and then they educated themselves by going

395
00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:13.119
to a cult support group and things like that. Back then, yeah,

396
00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:14.920
I was really on my own journey.

397
00:21:15.079 --> 00:21:17.000
So at that point you came out of that week,

398
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:19.680
but you did kind of get away and you traveled

399
00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:24.319
overseas for a bit, and eventually you ended up back. Yes,

400
00:21:24.359 --> 00:21:28.960
and you signed on to a much longer and intensive program.

401
00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:31.559
That's correct, because I couldn't afford to do the year

402
00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:35.000
long program, which was called Personal Mastery, a metaphysical counseling

403
00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:39.559
certificate to become a counselor, because I know, so you know,

404
00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:41.759
I've done lots of courses to become a psychic reader,

405
00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:45.000
a metaphysical healer, and I wanted to do the counseling

406
00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:46.960
course because I wanted to be a counselor and help

407
00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:50.039
people and heal people. So that was a year long

408
00:21:50.079 --> 00:21:52.160
and I couldn't afford it. At the end of that year,

409
00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:55.720
after the final step, so an opportunity to a friend

410
00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:57.799
of a friend came up to go in nanny in Italy.

411
00:21:57.880 --> 00:21:59.359
So I did that. But while I was there, I

412
00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:02.920
was still complete indoctrinated, So I was still running every

413
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:06.000
day and screaming into a face cloth. You can imagine

414
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:09.039
around Tuscany and the vineyards, and you know, me running

415
00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:12.640
around with a cloth, yelling and screaming. It was crazy.

416
00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:15.319
And because I was kind of still on a vegan

417
00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:18.640
vegetarian diet, I couldn't even enjoy all of the beautiful

418
00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:21.319
Italian food. They didn't really know what to feed me.

419
00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:24.839
So it was just shocking. You know. It just shows

420
00:22:24.839 --> 00:22:27.400
that it doesn't matter whether you're at a distance from

421
00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:31.400
the cult. If you are indoctrinated, you are still you know,

422
00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:34.279
your mind is completely there no matter where you are

423
00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:37.200
in the world. So when I got back, I started

424
00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:41.279
working in a public relations firm and I stepped onto

425
00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:45.200
the year long course and that was just again just

426
00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:49.359
another level. And we had about twenty nine people and

427
00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:52.039
there was lots of a book assignments and we had

428
00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:54.960
to juice two leaters of juice every day, stick to

429
00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:58.200
a vegan diet, no sugar, no bread, no salt, that

430
00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:01.880
type of thing. So you're looking at food deprivation, sleep

431
00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:04.559
deprivation because we were running around crazily trying to do

432
00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:07.960
these assignments and pass books on and more of the

433
00:23:08.039 --> 00:23:11.200
mind control techniques were utilized. By the end of that,

434
00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:13.799
she would be up at the room with her support

435
00:23:13.799 --> 00:23:15.480
team at the front, and it was really if you

436
00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:19.400
can imagine Jerry Springer like, she would purposely create drama

437
00:23:19.480 --> 00:23:22.119
and issues with the group and she would just watch

438
00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:24.920
it and feed off that, so that's what it was

439
00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:27.759
all about. To her. It was all about drama. And

440
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:31.279
because you would know, with Nazism and whether it's psychopathy,

441
00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:34.440
they're so dead inside and have no emotions, no empathy,

442
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:37.960
so really they need to be entertained and get attention,

443
00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:40.279
and that's all that she was doing the whole time.

444
00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:42.759
So you know, it just went on and on, and

445
00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:46.200
I completed course after course after course, and then things

446
00:23:46.279 --> 00:23:50.480
just progressed where she was finally actually on a current

447
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:55.240
affair and accused of being a cult leader and financially

448
00:23:55.279 --> 00:24:00.440
abusing people, etc. And her reputation really went down. And

449
00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:05.240
then extraordinarily she decided to become a psychologist in the

450
00:24:05.319 --> 00:24:07.960
year two thousand so that she could rectify her reputation.

451
00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:10.839
But she didn't really think that through because from that

452
00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:14.519
point on she had to be accountable to our you know,

453
00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:20.319
it's called apraheath Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency, So before

454
00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:23.119
she was not accountable to anyone. You know, she'd said

455
00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:25.440
that she was a counselor or that she was teaching

456
00:24:25.480 --> 00:24:27.920
people how to counsel, but she'd never done a counseling course.

457
00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:31.799
She said that she was qualified in alternate systems and

458
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:35.880
healing and relationship counseling things like that. But her degree

459
00:24:35.920 --> 00:24:39.319
was actually in agriculture, So I think that's another thing

460
00:24:39.319 --> 00:24:42.759
that's really important for red flags and just for the

461
00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:46.559
public to know about. When you are getting involved with anyone,

462
00:24:46.680 --> 00:24:53.359
whether it's an organization, a group, a meetup, even a person,

463
00:24:53.960 --> 00:24:58.359
look them up online and do your research because in

464
00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:01.039
this day and age, no one can get away with anything.

465
00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:04.279
So you will find a comment or review or just

466
00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:09.640
something somewhere about that particular group, person or organization, and yeah,

467
00:25:09.720 --> 00:25:12.200
you just I think the other thing is you can't

468
00:25:12.200 --> 00:25:14.799
be naive anymore, and you can't allow your children to

469
00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:15.759
grow up sheltered.

470
00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:19.279
That is a very good point. And going back, you

471
00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:22.400
didn't necessarily have the benefit of the Internet, like you

472
00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:24.680
You actually didn't have access to Google to be able

473
00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:27.000
to see who this person was or what other people

474
00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:28.480
have said. You only had what was right in front

475
00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:31.720
of you. Right, so that we now have a lot

476
00:25:31.720 --> 00:25:34.079
more access to information. I mean, still people still get

477
00:25:34.359 --> 00:25:37.680
scammed and get sucked into these things, but you were

478
00:25:37.720 --> 00:25:39.559
really at a disadvantage at that time.

479
00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:44.599
Yes, and then around two thousand and seven, which if

480
00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:47.880
I'm not mistaken was around when the Internet was really

481
00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:50.720
coming into its own I could be mistaken, but that's

482
00:25:50.799 --> 00:25:51.640
when there.

483
00:25:51.559 --> 00:25:53.359
Was Facebook started then it did.

484
00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:58.440
Yeah, so that's when some blogs started appearing on a

485
00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:02.119
cult education websit, Rick Ross if anyone's heard about him.

486
00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:06.200
And so that's when people started just telling the truth

487
00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:08.480
about this cult leader and what had happened to them,

488
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:11.400
calling her a narsiss and a psychopath, and just everything

489
00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:14.440
that she'd actually done, the physical abuse, the verbal abuse,

490
00:26:14.599 --> 00:26:18.799
the financial abuse, and then she ended up suing or

491
00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:21.720
trying to sue those people. So after a current affair,

492
00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:26.119
at least half or more of her base of cult

493
00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:30.160
members actually disappeared because they woke up. And then her

494
00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:34.319
true believers, including myself, stayed with her, supported her and

495
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:38.440
defended her. I ended up working for her for ten years,

496
00:26:38.599 --> 00:26:41.160
and you know, she blamed she used me as a

497
00:26:41.240 --> 00:26:43.920
scapegoat on a number of occasions. You know, the Australian

498
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:46.039
Taxation Office came in to investigate her and she blamed

499
00:26:46.039 --> 00:26:48.960
that on me and then I had to repay her

500
00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:51.559
money for that and that took about four years. And

501
00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:55.279
you know, this is where I hope I'm not jumping head,

502
00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:57.880
but where the human trafficking and slavery comes in, because

503
00:26:57.880 --> 00:27:00.799
that was debt bondage and you know, slavery. She didn't

504
00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:02.839
pay me for any of the work I did. I

505
00:27:02.839 --> 00:27:06.480
think it's it's great that governments and authorities are now

506
00:27:06.519 --> 00:27:10.720
looking at cults not only as these you know, extremist

507
00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:15.240
religious organizations and people are idiots and they you know,

508
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:18.640
it's their fault, but they're looking at it as human

509
00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:22.559
trafficking and slavery because that is exactly what the legislation states.

510
00:27:22.599 --> 00:27:25.599
What we went through was that, and unfortunately for me

511
00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:32.200
and my peers, the legislation for human trafficking slavery wasn't

512
00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:37.039
amended until about March two thousand and twelve, So anyone

513
00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:40.240
that was a victim after that time can really go

514
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:45.240
to the police and get hopefully justice. Just while I'm

515
00:27:45.240 --> 00:27:48.519
on it, you know, if anyone does escape from a cult,

516
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:52.079
don't go to the media and just you know, tell

517
00:27:52.119 --> 00:27:55.680
them what happened. Please go to the authorities. First, go

518
00:27:55.759 --> 00:27:59.079
to the police. Report exactly what happened or the abuse,

519
00:27:59.240 --> 00:28:03.960
whatever it was, financial, psychological, sexual, It's really important to

520
00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:05.599
report it to the police first.

521
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:09.839
You did end up working for her, You were quite

522
00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:12.640
keen to get more involved into the organization. You took

523
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:15.680
a job, then she didn't pay you. She never had

524
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:19.200
the money to pay you. Yeah, and then somehow or

525
00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:22.839
other she also ended up figuring out that you owed

526
00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:25.839
her money, so you were indebted, not just for the

527
00:28:25.960 --> 00:28:29.319
ATO stuff. She manufactured all of these other reasons why

528
00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:32.559
you apparently owed her money.

529
00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:35.200
That's correct. For example, she went on a ski trip

530
00:28:35.319 --> 00:28:39.480
with her children and her nephew, and I organized it,

531
00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:42.319
and then she made claims when she got back that

532
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:47.160
I didn't book transfers or her accommodation right on the

533
00:28:47.160 --> 00:28:49.359
ski slopes, you know, this, that and the other. And

534
00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:51.440
so I had to pay her ten thousand dollars for that.

535
00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:54.200
So you know, I had to pay her five.

536
00:28:54.119 --> 00:28:57.880
Just made that up, just decided that was worth ten

537
00:28:57.920 --> 00:28:59.920
thousand dollars for a penalty exactly.

538
00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:03.000
And you know, and people say, well, if you weren't

539
00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:05.759
getting paid, you know, how are you giving her mad? Yeah,

540
00:29:05.799 --> 00:29:08.119
So I was working second and third job, so I

541
00:29:08.200 --> 00:29:10.799
was waitressing, or I worked at a cinema on the

542
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:14.119
Gold Coast for four years. Later on, I worked at McDonald's,

543
00:29:14.680 --> 00:29:16.559
you know. And by the way, at that point, I

544
00:29:16.599 --> 00:29:19.519
thought I was only worthy of working at McDonald's. She

545
00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:23.559
ended up buying a guest house and a beauty seller

546
00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:26.279
down at Barham Bay during my time with her, and

547
00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:28.799
I was cleaning the guest house and I was performing

548
00:29:28.920 --> 00:29:31.240
you know, massages and petticills and things like that. So

549
00:29:31.279 --> 00:29:33.599
it was all about her. She would go out on

550
00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:37.039
her boat or surfboarding with her partner at the time,

551
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:40.359
and she it was all about us doing all the

552
00:29:40.359 --> 00:29:43.000
work for her, and she would just be reaping the

553
00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:46.240
benefits financially and having her free time off, and we

554
00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:48.839
were just slaves. I mean I was working, honestly, up

555
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:51.039
to twenty two hours a day, seven days a week.

556
00:29:51.400 --> 00:29:53.640
In the last few years. There was times when I

557
00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:56.839
was only having two hours sleep, and you know, there

558
00:29:56.920 --> 00:29:59.960
was a few nights that I didn't have any sleep.

559
00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:01.720
That's why I always say it's up to twenty two

560
00:30:01.720 --> 00:30:05.599
hours a day. So it's just incredible. I think people

561
00:30:05.680 --> 00:30:10.759
don't understand how someone like myself and others could actually

562
00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:13.279
survive like this or do this.

563
00:30:13.480 --> 00:30:15.720
Now. The bit that you missed was at some point

564
00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:19.240
that you got into a relationship with somebody who actually

565
00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:23.599
wasn't involved with the organization, but he did become involved.

566
00:30:24.359 --> 00:30:26.839
Did he have any red red flags at the beginning

567
00:30:26.920 --> 00:30:28.720
or was he kind of happy? Did he consider this

568
00:30:28.759 --> 00:30:30.559
to be a positive thing because you thought it was

569
00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:32.680
a positive thing, Like what was that because you then

570
00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:33.400
had two kids?

571
00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:34.519
Two three three?

572
00:30:34.599 --> 00:30:37.920
Yeah, three three kids while you were doing all of

573
00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:40.599
these jobs at work and being abused and having no

574
00:30:40.680 --> 00:30:42.440
money and also had children.

575
00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:45.519
That's correct. He actually had done the first program, the

576
00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:49.160
next evolutionary stuff, and he actually went to school with

577
00:30:49.960 --> 00:30:53.200
a girl who was on my year long course, so

578
00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:55.160
and he was living with her, and that's how he

579
00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:57.519
knew about the courses. So he had actually done the

580
00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:01.279
first one. And then you know, I know that if

581
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:03.640
it wasn't for me, he probably would have left the

582
00:31:03.640 --> 00:31:06.359
group a lot earlier, and particularly after we did have children,

583
00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:09.960
you know, after every child, things escalated and he actually

584
00:31:10.039 --> 00:31:11.880
left for a little while. And a lot of the

585
00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:15.640
premise for why I was doing the courses was to

586
00:31:16.039 --> 00:31:19.519
cleanse my cellular memory for my children and also the

587
00:31:19.559 --> 00:31:23.720
planet and myself. So once children were on the scene,

588
00:31:23.799 --> 00:31:27.400
that was another leverage for the cult leader to keep

589
00:31:27.480 --> 00:31:30.759
us there. And she would always tell us that we

590
00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:34.279
needed to continue to evolve for the sake of our children.

591
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:38.200
What was the turning point what caused you to eventually leave?

592
00:31:38.599 --> 00:31:41.480
As I mentioned, she had been suing a lot of people,

593
00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:47.440
including three other ex members and also my parents for defamation,

594
00:31:48.680 --> 00:31:52.039
so she needed to raise funds for all of her

595
00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:55.000
legal cases. So she was under a lot of pressure,

596
00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:58.079
and so there wasn't too many of us left, but

597
00:31:58.680 --> 00:32:03.559
we were again working on her accounts, and I was

598
00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:05.359
only having two hours sleep and night. I had three

599
00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:08.960
children by that point. My ex husband now he had

600
00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:13.119
left two years before at this point and was just

601
00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:15.160
sort of seeing me once a week and the kids

602
00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:17.839
once a week to help look after them. So there

603
00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:21.400
was a lot of pressure for me. She ended up

604
00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:26.400
physically battering me again in a very frenzied attack, like

605
00:32:26.440 --> 00:32:28.359
she punched me in the face, gave me a black eye.

606
00:32:28.440 --> 00:32:30.200
I think it was the twenty seventh of December, and

607
00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:33.519
then on the twenty ninth she really beat the crap

608
00:32:33.519 --> 00:32:35.559
out of me and peeped me to the ground. I

609
00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:37.960
was screaming in my face, pulling my hair out, all

610
00:32:37.960 --> 00:32:40.400
that type of thing, kicking me as she did, and

611
00:32:40.759 --> 00:32:43.119
I had just really got to the point where I

612
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:46.759
just could not cope anymore. She was calling me a

613
00:32:46.759 --> 00:32:50.920
con artist that I wasn't paying enough to her and

614
00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:54.319
everyone else, and that I was conning everyone else. And

615
00:32:54.640 --> 00:33:01.480
I had got to the point where just physically, spiritually, emotionally, mentally,

616
00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:06.440
I could not cope anymore. And you know, logically, I

617
00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:09.599
had worked out that I couldn't actually keep going like

618
00:33:09.680 --> 00:33:12.160
I'd always been trying to manifest money. And you know,

619
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:15.440
she got me onto the sett link single mother's pension

620
00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:18.240
and family Assistants, et cetera at one point, and that

621
00:33:18.279 --> 00:33:20.680
money obviously went directly to her, and so I'd been

622
00:33:20.759 --> 00:33:23.319
on that for about four years, and then I've been

623
00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:26.359
working at McDonald's and other side jobs. But I worked

624
00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:29.160
out that what she was proposing for me to give

625
00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:33.160
her and everyone else financially, i'd only have fifty dollars

626
00:33:33.200 --> 00:33:36.000
at the end of the week for food and putting

627
00:33:36.039 --> 00:33:39.160
my kids into you know, long daycare pay for that

628
00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:43.079
and just things like that. So logically my brain actually realized,

629
00:33:43.160 --> 00:33:44.960
I'm not going to be able to do this anymore.

630
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:48.799
And there was just one day where she called me

631
00:33:48.839 --> 00:33:50.519
down to her house and I thought she was going

632
00:33:50.599 --> 00:33:53.599
to bash me up again, and she was just screaming

633
00:33:53.680 --> 00:33:56.119
at me and telling everyone, you know, not to speak

634
00:33:56.119 --> 00:33:58.079
to me anymore, and I was being traded like dirt

635
00:33:58.279 --> 00:33:59.920
and my children she was started to say that my

636
00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:03.839
children were liars. At that point, they were eight, five

637
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:07.440
and two and a half. And Yeah, basically, when I

638
00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:09.960
walked out of the house, she hadn't physically assaulted me,

639
00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:11.920
but I thought, it's only amount of time. And I

640
00:34:12.039 --> 00:34:14.199
just thought, look, I just have to I have to

641
00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:16.000
go because I can't do anything. And I just made

642
00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:18.400
this sort of bet with myself and I ended up

643
00:34:18.599 --> 00:34:21.039
walking down the hill thinking that everyone would find me

644
00:34:21.079 --> 00:34:23.519
and follow me, but they didn't, and I just filled

645
00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:25.400
my car up with everything and went and picked up

646
00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:30.199
my three children from daycare and vacation care. And yeah,

647
00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:34.280
basically drove to my ex husband's work and just started

648
00:34:34.280 --> 00:34:38.239
speaking to him. And because I had made that decision,

649
00:34:38.679 --> 00:34:42.440
even though I was still indoctrinated and sort of talking

650
00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:45.079
myself in, just saying, you know, I'm going to tell

651
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:47.000
her that I'm not going to, you know, work through

652
00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:48.760
the night. I'm only going to work during the day,

653
00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:50.639
this and the other. But once I was with my

654
00:34:50.679 --> 00:34:53.119
ex husband in a safe place with my three children,

655
00:34:53.880 --> 00:34:58.000
within five minutes, my brain just started, you know, wow,

656
00:34:58.519 --> 00:35:00.920
just I was out of that survivor mode and it

657
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:03.280
just started functioning and I thought, oh my god, she

658
00:35:03.400 --> 00:35:05.400
is a cult leader and that is a cult and

659
00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:08.119
then that was it. So it's long and short of it.

660
00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:11.199
Yeah, I mean there is so much that you haven't

661
00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:14.840
even mentioned to do with the criminal activity, the money

662
00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:18.800
that she was illegally collecting on behalf of loads of like,

663
00:35:18.800 --> 00:35:21.039
there's so much. Yeah, people can read get the book

664
00:35:21.039 --> 00:35:24.400
if they want all of that. Yes, But Carly, when

665
00:35:24.679 --> 00:35:28.119
you came to your senses basically at that day and

666
00:35:28.159 --> 00:35:32.880
then you left, what was the process for your healing

667
00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:34.239
to recover from that?

668
00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:38.079
It was? It was a huge process. And just the

669
00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:41.079
recovery for people who've been in a cult it takes

670
00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:44.159
years and years. You know, some people estimate that however

671
00:35:44.199 --> 00:35:46.159
long you've been in the cult will be how long

672
00:35:46.199 --> 00:35:47.599
it will take to get over it. And you know,

673
00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:49.760
I was in there for thirteen and a half years,

674
00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:54.280
and honestly, not until like five years, ten years down

675
00:35:54.320 --> 00:35:56.599
the track you start to feel normal. First of all,

676
00:35:56.639 --> 00:35:58.719
you go through things like you know, I caught up

677
00:35:58.760 --> 00:36:02.039
with all of my school friends and some uni friends

678
00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:04.679
that I hadn't seen for that whole time, and you know,

679
00:36:04.760 --> 00:36:08.000
the school friends. I divulged to them stuff that had happened,

680
00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:09.599
and you know, they just look at you as if

681
00:36:09.639 --> 00:36:12.559
you're like a weird creature and don't understand anything. And

682
00:36:12.599 --> 00:36:14.199
you know, they never ever called me back, and I

683
00:36:14.199 --> 00:36:17.119
never saw them again. So you've lost all your friends.

684
00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:19.039
You know. I had a family member that didn't speak

685
00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:21.440
to me for three years, and then after that barely

686
00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:24.000
spoke to me. You know. I've tried to get therapy

687
00:36:24.199 --> 00:36:29.199
a few times, and there was one psychologist who said

688
00:36:29.239 --> 00:36:32.079
about five times, oh, look, this is really overwhelming, you know,

689
00:36:32.119 --> 00:36:34.559
overwhelming because I was just verbally darting for like an hour.

690
00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:39.000
Even psychologists we find that they just can't understand and

691
00:36:39.079 --> 00:36:42.320
really help us because what we have experience is so extreme.

692
00:36:42.559 --> 00:36:46.239
But I ended up doing EMDR, which I found was

693
00:36:46.360 --> 00:36:48.760
really good. I did that about three times back then,

694
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:52.199
and then I ended up doing it more after the

695
00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:54.559
court case. I thought I'd better go back and just

696
00:36:54.599 --> 00:36:57.360
tidy up just the last finishing touches of what was

697
00:36:57.400 --> 00:36:59.320
going on. And I did that about three times in

698
00:36:59.320 --> 00:37:01.320
three weeks, and does bring up a lot. I really

699
00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:04.320
found that helpful, but it is very it just brings

700
00:37:04.400 --> 00:37:06.119
up everything straight away and it is a lot to

701
00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:08.639
deal with. Even though I had moved through so much

702
00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:11.039
emotionally and process so much for me, it brought up

703
00:37:11.079 --> 00:37:12.559
a lot, so I can't imagine what it would do

704
00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:16.960
just a person with just some some p TNST. I

705
00:37:17.039 --> 00:37:20.400
joined a cult support group called Cult Information and Family

706
00:37:20.440 --> 00:37:23.239
Support KIFTS, which my parents had been involved with, and

707
00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:26.679
that was really helpful because you get to be around people,

708
00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:29.960
either parents and loved ones who have had people in

709
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:32.760
a cult or still do, and you get to talk

710
00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:35.079
to ex cult members, and I think it's really important.

711
00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:37.800
That is one really big thing that I recommend is

712
00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:39.760
that you know, no matter whether you've been in a

713
00:37:39.800 --> 00:37:42.760
cult or with a narcissist or something like that in

714
00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:46.519
a gang, really hang around people and seek support from

715
00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:49.320
those who have experienced it. Yeah. And you know, just

716
00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:52.000
I hadn't had a job. I mentioned that I worked

717
00:37:52.039 --> 00:37:53.880
at McDonald's. Like when I got out of the cult,

718
00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:55.840
I was too scared to get a job for almost

719
00:37:55.840 --> 00:37:59.480
two years, and I thought I was only you know,

720
00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:01.920
I could own work on the front counter of McDonald's.

721
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:03.519
That's how I felt. And I you know, had a

722
00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:07.679
university degree and had so much promise at UNI and

723
00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:12.000
afterwards that wasn't fulfilled. So I had to build up

724
00:38:12.039 --> 00:38:14.559
my self esteem again as far as my career is concerned,

725
00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:19.280
make new friends, and which you know didn't happen too much.

726
00:38:19.320 --> 00:38:21.400
And you know, I guess when you've been in a

727
00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:24.480
cult situational with a narciss sister or a psychopath, you

728
00:38:24.760 --> 00:38:29.280
really don't trust people, so you have to work out

729
00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:31.639
how to set boundaries and learn how to do that

730
00:38:31.719 --> 00:38:34.679
for the first time in your life. And I had

731
00:38:34.760 --> 00:38:37.559
believed in Jesus, in God and been very religious when

732
00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:39.079
I was up to nineteen, and then in the New

733
00:38:39.079 --> 00:38:41.159
Age I was still very spiritual. I was very spiritual

734
00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:43.199
the whole time. And I am now that I really

735
00:38:43.239 --> 00:38:46.519
turned away from, you know, even saying Jesus or God,

736
00:38:46.960 --> 00:38:49.000
so that that's a shame in a way, because I

737
00:38:49.119 --> 00:38:53.239
really was so scarred that I cut connection even just

738
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:56.599
with those particular words. But now I'm sort of starting

739
00:38:56.639 --> 00:39:01.960
to get back to just really realizing that everything I

740
00:39:02.039 --> 00:39:07.599
went through. You know, cults, they will have different themes

741
00:39:07.639 --> 00:39:11.000
and different recruitment methods, and you know, they might be

742
00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:14.840
Bible based groups or whatever it is. Mine was a

743
00:39:14.840 --> 00:39:17.079
New Age group because I believed in the New Age

744
00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:21.000
and I still do. So it's a shame that a

745
00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:25.440
cult leader or an artist will really work on you

746
00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:28.239
so much that you lose your innate self and you

747
00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:31.039
really have to try and rebuild that and rebuild those

748
00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:35.039
connections and those beliefs again. Yeah, but look, it's taken

749
00:39:35.079 --> 00:39:38.239
a long time. And you know, I guess also going

750
00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:40.000
into the cult when I was twenty one. You know,

751
00:39:40.039 --> 00:39:42.719
I didn't come out until I was thirty five, so

752
00:39:42.800 --> 00:39:45.239
I lost all of my twenties and half of my thirties.

753
00:39:45.800 --> 00:39:48.159
That was something that I had to accept.

754
00:39:48.519 --> 00:39:50.960
CALLI how much faith do you actually have in psychologists

755
00:39:50.960 --> 00:39:53.519
given that your cult leader is currently a registered psychologist

756
00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:56.039
in Australia and still registered with OPRA.

757
00:39:56.199 --> 00:40:00.000
Exactly, I. I mean, I don't want to say anything

758
00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:02.159
too bad. I certainly don't think I can be sued

759
00:40:02.199 --> 00:40:07.840
for defamation for this, but I don't have faith in OPRAH.

760
00:40:08.039 --> 00:40:11.000
My court leader is actually also registered with the HCPC

761
00:40:11.079 --> 00:40:14.239
in the UK, and I've communicated with them. I did

762
00:40:14.280 --> 00:40:16.840
write a book about my experiences and self published it

763
00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:20.440
in twenty seventeen, and then I was subsequently sued for

764
00:40:20.519 --> 00:40:24.719
defamation and I spent over six years defending myself and

765
00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:29.639
I went a trial from September December twenty twenty three,

766
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:33.760
and I stood up in the court and ran the

767
00:40:33.760 --> 00:40:36.440
whole trial myself. It was over ten weeks and on

768
00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:38.239
the first of March I ended up winning the court

769
00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:44.039
case with twelve invitations ruled absolutely true and four invitations

770
00:40:44.119 --> 00:40:47.679
ruled substantially true. And it was a scathing judgment of

771
00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:50.719
the cult leader and that the Supreme Court judge called

772
00:40:50.760 --> 00:40:53.440
her an urrant liar and a cult leader, and she

773
00:40:53.599 --> 00:40:56.559
ended up appealing. And obviously I was researching all of

774
00:40:56.599 --> 00:40:58.519
the law myself. I only spoke to a couple of

775
00:40:58.599 --> 00:41:01.559
lawyers very briefly at either of the court case. And

776
00:41:02.199 --> 00:41:05.000
you know, I just happened upon the legislation about that

777
00:41:05.079 --> 00:41:08.599
you can get an appeal dismissed for want of prosecution

778
00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:12.079
if you know it's prejudiced against the defendant or if

779
00:41:12.119 --> 00:41:14.400
she's taking too much time, and there was a couple

780
00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:17.559
of other things, and miraculously, after three and a half months,

781
00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:20.480
I got the appeal dismissed and that was on the

782
00:41:20.519 --> 00:41:23.719
eighth of July. And so both those judgments against the

783
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:27.199
cult leader I sent to APRA and the hc PC,

784
00:41:27.880 --> 00:41:31.199
and they're hardly corresponding with me at all, and basically

785
00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:34.119
I believe that they're waiting for a criminal verdict. You know,

786
00:41:34.199 --> 00:41:36.480
I've handled all over all of my evidence to the

787
00:41:36.519 --> 00:41:40.159
Aussuran Federal Police. I was very determined to speak the

788
00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:43.239
truth and seek justice because no one had managed to

789
00:41:43.239 --> 00:41:48.039
do it. She had sued multiple organizations a yeah, and

790
00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:50.960
you know my parents and ex cult members as well

791
00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:53.639
as university and you know, a current affair, et cetera.

792
00:41:54.039 --> 00:41:57.280
So she'd been extremely militigious. For some reason, I felt

793
00:41:57.320 --> 00:42:00.320
like I had the balls to take her to court

794
00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:02.800
and win, and I did at the end, after I

795
00:42:02.840 --> 00:42:06.000
won the appeal. You know, I'm still determined to take

796
00:42:06.039 --> 00:42:08.280
it right to the end criminally, but really I've had

797
00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:10.599
to just step back and say, you know, it's up

798
00:42:10.599 --> 00:42:13.639
to the police. Now, it's up to APRA and the

799
00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:17.880
HCPC to do their job. I mean, the Supreme Court

800
00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:22.280
Judge and the Chief Justice have stated that it's absolutely

801
00:42:22.280 --> 00:42:26.599
true that she battered myself and others, incited others to

802
00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:30.599
batter others, that she committed sexual assault, that she is

803
00:42:30.639 --> 00:42:35.000
a criminal, even it's substantially true that she's a violent extremist,

804
00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:39.880
that she's likely to suffer from narcissistic and borderline personality disorder.

805
00:42:40.039 --> 00:42:42.800
There were some big things that I proved, so surely

806
00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:46.960
an absolutely true statement is as good as beyond reasonable doubt.

807
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:50.840
But APRA and the hc PC have not taken action

808
00:42:51.039 --> 00:42:53.920
and she's still able to practice as a psychologist in

809
00:42:53.960 --> 00:42:55.079
both Australia and the UK.

810
00:42:55.400 --> 00:42:57.159
I just need to have a little chuckle about that.

811
00:42:57.239 --> 00:42:59.440
I mean, to be honest, Carlie, I'm a psychologist, and

812
00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:02.760
the fear that exists among the psychology profession I mean,

813
00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:05.800
people are terrified that any little thing that they do,

814
00:43:05.880 --> 00:43:07.239
they're going to get called up to arper.

815
00:43:07.480 --> 00:43:11.440
That's why I had as a contextual imputation that she's

816
00:43:11.599 --> 00:43:14.360
likely to be a psychopath, because she had put in

817
00:43:14.400 --> 00:43:17.559
her imputations in her statement of claim that you know,

818
00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:20.920
I reduced her reputation stating that she's likely to suffer

819
00:43:20.960 --> 00:43:23.360
from Nazism and bayline personality disorder. I put in the

820
00:43:23.400 --> 00:43:26.000
contextual imputation that she's likely to be a psychopath. The

821
00:43:26.119 --> 00:43:30.199
judge actually put in his judgment that she definitely has

822
00:43:30.440 --> 00:43:35.159
a psychological disorder, whether it be you know, Nazism or

823
00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:37.519
you know psychopathy, that type of thing. He actually put

824
00:43:37.519 --> 00:43:39.840
it in the judgment. You know, even that as far

825
00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:43.480
as APRA's concerned, you know, I know with their laws

826
00:43:44.039 --> 00:43:46.760
section fifty one, I think it is that if they

827
00:43:47.360 --> 00:43:50.199
have some sort of personality disorder or they're a criminal,

828
00:43:50.360 --> 00:43:52.760
that they should be struck off. But it still hasn't happened.

829
00:43:53.840 --> 00:43:56.519
Many people who have similar experience to what you had,

830
00:43:56.599 --> 00:43:58.679
when they come out like they never talk about it.

831
00:43:58.719 --> 00:44:02.800
There's a level of shame involved. But you've been really open,

832
00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:05.639
has it been. Do you think that's been helpful for

833
00:44:05.719 --> 00:44:09.039
you to talk about it and get your story out there.

834
00:44:09.519 --> 00:44:13.199
Yeah, it's interesting because, as I mentioned, I was an

835
00:44:13.239 --> 00:44:17.119
executive assistant and I never mentioned it to anyone right

836
00:44:17.199 --> 00:44:19.280
up until I was about to publish my book, but

837
00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:22.360
so I always kept it hidden from my work colleagues.

838
00:44:23.039 --> 00:44:25.760
I definitely wanted to tell the truth about her, because

839
00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:28.519
I was always a person, even in the cult, that

840
00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:32.519
told the truth. And even though I did some what

841
00:44:32.559 --> 00:44:35.559
would be deemed horrible things in the cult, myself, I

842
00:44:35.719 --> 00:44:38.679
was prepared to wear that because I know that I

843
00:44:38.760 --> 00:44:42.119
was indoctrinated and it probably wouldn't have happened if I

844
00:44:42.199 --> 00:44:45.920
wasn't in the cult, and I had to wear the

845
00:44:46.159 --> 00:44:49.679
fact that things might come back against me, but I

846
00:44:49.760 --> 00:44:53.039
was prepared to be totally truthful and honest so that

847
00:44:53.239 --> 00:44:55.880
I could tell the entire truth about the cult leader

848
00:44:55.960 --> 00:44:58.800
and what happened in the cult. When people are going

849
00:44:58.840 --> 00:45:02.480
to expose someone else, they have to be prepared for

850
00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:07.039
any backlash against them. And I just believed so much

851
00:45:07.159 --> 00:45:10.480
in telling the truth about her because for years and years,

852
00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:13.239
like over twenty thirty years now, people have been trying

853
00:45:13.239 --> 00:45:15.280
to tell the truth, but she's been trying to censor

854
00:45:15.320 --> 00:45:19.760
them with litigation. So, as I said, I don't know why,

855
00:45:19.880 --> 00:45:22.599
but for some reason, I just felt like I had

856
00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:25.800
the courage and the boldness to take her on because

857
00:45:26.280 --> 00:45:29.360
innately I've had that strength. I mean, funnily enough, during

858
00:45:29.360 --> 00:45:31.320
the courses, you get to know what your name means,

859
00:45:31.400 --> 00:45:34.159
and my name, Carli means strong woman and free women.

860
00:45:34.519 --> 00:45:37.239
And it's funny because I use things like, you know,

861
00:45:37.280 --> 00:45:40.119
the goddess Indian goddess Krli. Throughout the court case, I

862
00:45:40.119 --> 00:45:42.119
had a picture of Carli up on the wall, and

863
00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:45.360
during the trial, I was for the first time calling

864
00:45:45.400 --> 00:45:48.440
on you no Archangel Michael and Jesus Christ and God

865
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:51.400
and relying on all of whatever I had access to

866
00:45:51.400 --> 00:45:54.320
to get me through that because every day I had

867
00:45:54.320 --> 00:45:57.239
to face her from memory, I think I cross examined

868
00:45:57.239 --> 00:46:00.639
her on the stand for seventeen days. Oh my god, Yeah,

869
00:46:00.679 --> 00:46:04.960
so I know. And we'd moved into a larger core room,

870
00:46:04.960 --> 00:46:06.760
into a small quorum, so she was literally like a

871
00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:08.440
meter and a half away from me, and I had

872
00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:12.239
to face this woman who had basically persecuted me for

873
00:46:12.280 --> 00:46:14.519
thirteen and a half years and bashed the shit out

874
00:46:14.559 --> 00:46:16.039
of me. I had to face her, and I had

875
00:46:16.039 --> 00:46:16.719
to question.

876
00:46:16.519 --> 00:46:18.719
Her and listened to her lie.

877
00:46:18.880 --> 00:46:22.239
Absolutely. Oh that was just the major thing. Like luckily,

878
00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:24.840
my mum actually went and she was there with me

879
00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:26.920
every single day for we were down in Hoba for

880
00:46:26.920 --> 00:46:30.760
three months and we just could not get over how

881
00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:33.599
much she lied and exaggerated, like it was just beyond

882
00:46:33.639 --> 00:46:36.480
a joke. But that was great because you know, I

883
00:46:36.559 --> 00:46:39.440
knew that I had to ask her questions about things

884
00:46:39.800 --> 00:46:41.679
and then and get her to lie, and then I

885
00:46:41.679 --> 00:46:43.760
would bring out the actual evidence. And that's what actually

886
00:46:43.800 --> 00:46:46.519
won me this court case, is because I'm an executive

887
00:46:46.519 --> 00:46:50.079
assistant and I have kept up myself. Yeah, I used

888
00:46:50.119 --> 00:46:53.440
all my organizational abilities and all the evidence I had.

889
00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:57.599
I'd kept everything so I had the evidence, and that's

890
00:46:57.639 --> 00:46:59.639
why you know, I know a lot of people don't

891
00:46:59.679 --> 00:47:02.360
when they cases is because they don't have enough evidence.

892
00:47:02.400 --> 00:47:06.239
You know, you're relying on what people say and reputation

893
00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:08.199
and how they come across in the court room. But

894
00:47:08.320 --> 00:47:12.719
I had tended over four hundred documents and videos and audio.

895
00:47:12.880 --> 00:47:16.039
So yeah, good on you, good on you. I mean

896
00:47:16.079 --> 00:47:19.480
to represent yourself and then face her. I am conscious

897
00:47:19.480 --> 00:47:21.000
of the time, but I did want to say too,

898
00:47:21.119 --> 00:47:24.079
Like you got out of the cult, you would think

899
00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:26.159
that is the step where you start to that's the

900
00:47:26.199 --> 00:47:29.159
point where you can start just getting on with your life.

901
00:47:29.159 --> 00:47:32.760
But like you said, she has continued in her capacity

902
00:47:32.800 --> 00:47:36.239
now as a psychologist, has even threatened to report you

903
00:47:36.760 --> 00:47:40.199
to children's services to have your children taken away. Like

904
00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:44.119
she basically continues to try to exert whatever influence and

905
00:47:44.159 --> 00:47:46.559
power she has to control you, even once you're out.

906
00:47:47.079 --> 00:47:50.559
That's correct. She used the tool of whenever anyone escaped,

907
00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:53.039
because she knew they would go to the police. She

908
00:47:53.119 --> 00:47:55.800
went to the police first, so whenever anyone left, she

909
00:47:55.880 --> 00:47:59.840
would report them to the police for either stealing or

910
00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:03.079
being abusive to their kids, that type of thing. That's

911
00:48:03.119 --> 00:48:07.519
why it's really important when anyone has had physical sexual

912
00:48:07.559 --> 00:48:10.760
financial abuse to go and report it to the police.

913
00:48:10.760 --> 00:48:13.320
And I and see, I didn't even report it until

914
00:48:13.519 --> 00:48:16.360
after the newspaper articles came out. I don't even know why.

915
00:48:16.360 --> 00:48:19.800
It's ridiculous, like we just think that we should just

916
00:48:19.840 --> 00:48:22.039
either get on with our lives or we'll go to

917
00:48:22.039 --> 00:48:25.119
the media first. It's crazy. You need to report everything

918
00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:27.920
that happens to you. And here's where the education comes in.

919
00:48:28.280 --> 00:48:31.559
You know, you need to realize that no one is

920
00:48:31.599 --> 00:48:36.119
allowed to physically hurt you, sexually hurt you, financially hurt you,

921
00:48:36.199 --> 00:48:39.920
coerce you, be misleading, and coerce you to do something

922
00:48:40.039 --> 00:48:43.000
or say something that you don't really want to. Yeah,

923
00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:46.360
it is up to parents and the community to educate

924
00:48:46.599 --> 00:48:50.280
everyone and particularly our children about the types of people

925
00:48:50.360 --> 00:48:54.800
that are out in our community. And yeah, when something happens,

926
00:48:54.840 --> 00:48:56.159
to just report it.

927
00:48:57.079 --> 00:48:59.960
Cally, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk

928
00:49:00.039 --> 00:49:01.760
to me today. I'm sure it's not easy to talk

929
00:49:01.800 --> 00:49:04.679
about it all over again, but I'm really in awe

930
00:49:04.760 --> 00:49:09.039
to be honest and appreciate you telling your story to

931
00:49:09.199 --> 00:49:13.320
help other people and to educate other people. Credit to you.

932
00:49:13.480 --> 00:49:16.119
Thank you, thanks very much, Cass, Thank you so much.

933
00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:20.960
Crappy to Happy is created and produced by me, Cass Done.

934
00:49:21.039 --> 00:49:23.039
If you enjoy the show, please with the follow button

935
00:49:23.079 --> 00:49:25.559
wherever you listen to ensure you never miss an episode.

936
00:49:25.719 --> 00:49:27.360
Share with a friend to get me into the ears

937
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of more lovely listeners, and I would love for you

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to leave a five star rating and review. Thank you

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so much for being here and I cannot wait to

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catch you next week for another fabulous episode of Cracket

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A happy