June 12, 2022

How mind wandering can boost your mood and creativity with Moshe Bar

How mind wandering can boost your mood and creativity with Moshe Bar
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How mind wandering can boost your mood and creativity with Moshe Bar
How mind wandering can boost your mood and creativity with Moshe Bar
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Season 7 Psychology & Neuroscience Positive Psychology

The positive impacts of mindfulness are undeniable, but neuroscientist Moshe Bar has discovered that there’s also a lot of benefits for its opposite.. Mind wandering. In this chat Moshe Bar explains how mind wandering has the power to improve your mood, boost creativity and help you solve problems. Connect with Moshe:https://twitter.com/moshe1barBuy his book here: booktopia.kh4ffx.net/mindwandering
Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
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Join the free 7-day Happiness Challenge:www.cassdunn.com/happiness

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Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
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Transcript
WEBVTT

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A listener production. This is Crappita Happy, and I am

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your host, Cas Doun. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist

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and mindfulness meditation teacher and of course author of the

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Crappita Happy books. In this show, I bring you conversations

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with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their

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field and who have something of value to share that

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will help you feel less crappy and more happy. Mind

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wandering can get a bit of a bad rap these days.

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As you all know, I'm a huge fan of mindfulness

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and using meditation to train ourselves to be more deliberate

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and focused with how we use our minds. So the

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idea that deliberately allowing ourselves time to just let our

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minds wander runs counter to a lot of the messages

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that we are hearing these days about how much we

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need to harness our wandering attention. But neuroscientist Mosha bar

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is determined to show us how mind wandering can actually

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be really good for us. Scientifically, it's proven to boost

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our mood, creativity, and problem solving abilities. Masha is a

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former director of the Cognitive Neuroscience Lab at Harvard Medical

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School and the Massachusetts General hospital. He's an internationally renowned

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cognitive neuroscientist. He has his PhD in cognitive neuroscience from

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the University of Southern California, and for his outstanding research

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and academic achievements, he has received numerous awards and honors.

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So you will be fascinated to hear what Masha has

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to say about this. If you find your mind wandering

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from time to time, and let's be real, who doesn't,

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and particularly if you feel guilty for your scattered attention,

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he is determined to alleviate you of that guild. Let's

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get straight into our chat. Mosha, Welcome to the Crappy

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to Happy Podcast. It's such a pleasure to have you.

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Thank you for having me, Mosha. I saw that you

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had written a book called Mind Wondering, and I was

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so excited because this is a topic that I find

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really fascinating. I'm a psychologist and I also teach and

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practice mindfulness and meditation, so you know, there's a lot

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of stuff about mind wandering, and you know that it's

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a bad thing. I guess, particularly the way I think

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of mind wandering is you're trying to focus on something

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and inevitably your mind's off thinking about what you're going

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to do for dinner, or what you should have done yesterday,

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or what you're going to do next week. Is that

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what your definition is of mind wandering? I think we

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should just get clear on the definition first.

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Yes, it's one of their Mind modeling is a collection

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of mental processes that definitely include what you mentioned kind

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of planning what's ahead, But there are other things that

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fall under this overarching umbrella of mind wading. So simulations

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and planning is one, but also worrying and rooming, eating

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on things is a type of mind wandering. Thinking about

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the past and maybe projecting to the future is another

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type of mind wandering. So it's really a collection of processes.

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Some of them are better than others. But referring to

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the beginning of what you just said, uh, I realized

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after the publish published the book and started giving interviews

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that one mission I had unbeknownst to me was to

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really give mind modeling a good name, because we're kind

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of guiltreaten about our not being in the moment and drifting,

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but nature doesn't let us. Wouldn't let us spend so

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much time and energy metabolic energy on drifting For about

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half of our waking hours. I think it's a pretty

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starting number, uh if it didn't have a real function,

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a real purpose. So it does. And for us as scientists,

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we try to distinguish between you no good and bad,

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just very simplistically good and bad mind holdoring or constructive

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and less constructive. But I'm jumping ahead.

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Probably yeah, you are jumping ahead because I would love

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to get into that. I love that you've got to

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do a pr job for mind wondering again, So Masha,

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before we get into that, though, can I just ask

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what how did you get involved in studying this?

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Like?

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What what led you to doing research in the area

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of mind wondering.

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Well, I'll tell you the serious answer, but before that,

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I can guess the motivation behind your question, which is,

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and I tend to see when I talk with others

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that everyone thinks because I think because of all the

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guilds that society instill in us, we got in mind.

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I think it's like a private thing, and each one

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of us things that they are unique in that sense.

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But it turns out that all of us are drifters

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and we should just you know, acknowledge that and utilize

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it to our advantage and be able to distinguish when

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and how. So I started, it kind of evolved. It's

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not like I woke up in the morning as I

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let's study mind wandering it. Really I was studying associative

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thinking and maybe also creativity back then in the brain

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and realize that there is a large overlap between what

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I see in the brain what we my lab sees

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in the brain with using methods are just functional MRI

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and a big network that's been discovered maybe two decades

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ago and made a big splash, and until now it's

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considered one of the big revolutions, what we call the

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default mode network. And if you don't mind, I'll expand

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on it just for a seconds so your listeners can

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understand when I'm referring to here. So we as a

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community of neuroscientists tend to think, you know, into a

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kind of implicitly and probably naively that when we tell

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our individuals in the studies that our participants to rest

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in between experimental conditions. Let's say the experiment is about

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distinguishing what happens in your brain when you look at

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said faces versus happy faces, and in between showing you

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happy and said faces, I tell you to rest, and again,

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naively and not necessarily consciously, we thought that when we

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tell our individuals to rest, their brain also goes to

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sleep or goes to rest, so at least much less active.

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But when people start looking at the brain of rest,

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of when you're not doing anything demanding, we realize there's

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massive network that is intense network of cortical regions that

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is intensely active when we are not supposed to be

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doing anything. So we started thinking, you know, what is

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the purpose? Why is the brain so active? And it's

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very consistent. One of the most consistent findings in neuroscience

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across individuals, across times, across labs, across continents. We find

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the same vigorous network of active regions that are active

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when we're not doing anything. So like when you're stuck

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in traffic and when you're in the shower. We all

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know that we're thinking, but we did realize that we're

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thinking so much. So the idea here is you that

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there is this notion now that by default the brain

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is very active and very active in a very consistent network.

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And this network, back to your question, overlap largely with mind.

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With our findings about associations and predictions in the brain.

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So then this helped us. It was a clue as

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because obviously as scientists, once we discovered this network and

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we got over our initial excitement, our next mission was

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to understand what is this network doing. Just like your

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first question, you know, why do we wonder? And what

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is including in bind wandering? So this, this was the

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connection of a lot of what we do when we wonder,

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when we drift, is actually generating predictions, activating association, generating

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predictions about the future, general in creative ideas or the

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what we call creative incubation. So what led to me

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specifically to study mind modeling is exactly that realizing that

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thinking about the future and thinking creatively utilizes the same

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network that is active, and we're not doing anything so

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by difficult, what we do is think creatively and think,

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you know, and simulate about the future.

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So this I'm glad that you're talking about the default

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mode network because it's one thing I really wanted to

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ask you about. So when I first learned about the

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default mode network, my understanding was that predominantly where our

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mind goes, it goes to very self referential thinking. We

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think a lot about ourselves we're all the star in

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the movie of our own life, and we think about ourselves,

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and we also focus on you can correct me if

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I'm wrong here, on problems, finding problems, and also projecting

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what other people are thinking about us. And to me

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that explains while we're also neurotic and self create and constantly,

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you know, stressing about what everybody thinks of us. Obviously,

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then there's this aspect of the default mode network, like

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you said, which is to do with making associations and creativity.

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So I'm really curious to understand at least both default

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mode network functions and when is one operating versus the other, Like,

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what are the conditions I guess that create either the

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more creative I would think, positive thinking versus that really

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obsessive self critical thinking you mentioned Erotik.

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You mentioned a lot of aspects of mine worrying in

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one question, So you're right, thinking about the self and

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thinking about others. I do want to sharpen the definition

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of thinking about others. It's true that we do think

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about others and what do they think about us, But

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we look at the default network as subserving something more

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profound than that with regard to others, it's called the

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theory of mind. And the idea of theory of mind

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is understanding others. So not only what should they think

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about us, but also what are their intentions? So somebody

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when I say something to you, so you don't want

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only to understand the literal meaning of what I just said.

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You want to think about the intentions. Why did he

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say what he said, and what does it mean? What

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does it mean about to me? What are his intentions

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towards me or towards this matter that we are discussing

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When somebody is approaching you were always trying to understand

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what is in somebody else's mind. In Buddhism, you know,

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they talk about I mean, the most noble part is

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understanding yourself. Understanding others is complex, and we are ridiculously

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confident in our ability to do so, even though we're

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really bet at it. But understanding ourselves is even harder.

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So we think about the self, our presentation of the self,

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representation of you know, how would we respond to different scenarios,

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and how would we feel about certain things? Why do

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we act the way we act, and why do we

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say the things we say? But also understanding others, So

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it's less. I mean, it definitely includes also what do

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others think about us? Do you really like a specific

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thing I said or did? But it's more about you know,

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survival and proper communication that we understand, try to understand

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what is in your mind.

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So that was the part about the self referential thinking

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and kind of projecting onto other people. But then there's

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this creative aspect, and I guess what I'm trying to

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work out is we are the particular conditions that prompt

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one versus the other type of thinking, type of mind wandering.

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Excellent questions. So in the book I outlined the circumstances

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that promote the most creative thinking. And obviously this is

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a very natural question that you asking that because people

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and this actually stunned me as somebody who studies creativity

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to what extent people are thirsty to learn about creativity.

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I once had an event where I interviewed a very

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creative chef in Israel in our neuroscience center, is a

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very unique person person and the auditorium was exploding with people.

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It was never as full. And I told them at

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the introduction that if the title of the speech of

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the conversation was how to extend your life in fifteen

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years we didn't have we would have not had so

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many people in the crowd. As in that creativity people

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really want to be able to be able to understand

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their creativity and how to maximize their creativity. So I

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think it's you know, it gives me optimism about the

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human race of how excited we get about the possibility

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of being more creative. So back to your question, Yes,

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there are conditions where you can be more creative. So

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the same I was just teaching this in class yesterday,

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that there are conditions where creativity is not destiny. Your

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level of creativity is not fixed. It can change depending

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on circumstances. And some circumstances that make you more creative

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include you know, mood. We find surprising different connections between

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your mood and your level of creativity. So people in

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a better mood tend to be more creative. So, and

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this has direct applications to our everyday life. You want

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your employees to give such you know, to brainstorm and

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finding a creative solution. You want to be minded of

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their you know, of their state of mind. You want

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to make sure that they are in the good mood

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when they enter such brainstorming sessions so that you can

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maximize the creative sticking in that session. Another aspect is

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what we call cognitive load. So when you're loaded with

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that doesn't have to be necessarily ruminations or warris. If

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you're just loaded with things you have to do or

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the people that are waiting for me. As I told

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you before, and if it bothers my mind, it takes

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away from my one hundred percent resources and leaves me

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with less for creative thinking. So a freer mind like

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you and I know from meditation can promote creative thinking

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just by the mere fact that it empties and it

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leaves you with more. It empties your mind, it leaves

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you with more resources for creative thinking. So yes, there

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are conditions to maximize creativity. And of course you can

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turn every person to be Leonardo da vincibly, you can

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turn anybody to be Leonaro da Vinci, but you can

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be more or less creative. And not only that, it's

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good to know the circumstances. It helps one and I

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use it myself also in my everyday life to recognize

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the state you're in and if I need a creative solution,

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but I know that I'm in a crappy mood now,

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and it's not one that will facilitate creative thinking. I'll

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think to myself, Okay, I'll get back to this problem

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later when I'm in the right state of mine for

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the maxima creativity.

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I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the

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benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are

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enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe

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so that you get notified when you apps drop and

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head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen

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and leave us a rating and review. Getting to the

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meditation thing, Masha, I know you said in the book

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that you have participated in long silent meditation retreats. I

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have to I find them really beneficial, but you mentioned

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that they can perhaps not beig meditation is not great

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necessarily for mind wandering. What's the link? I guess what's

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the association the relationship between mind wandering and meditation.

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Well, it actually there's a multi eventual interaction there, so

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it's not so mind wandering is in play here and mindfulness,

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but there's also the perspective you're taking about your experience,

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So meditation definitely helps you reduce the amount of mind wandering.

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And we study this as we speak. We study this

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in the lab. I'll give you one example. There's a

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method that I really like that's called labeling. You might

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be familiar with. Where you sit there on a pillow

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with your eyes closed. Everything is relaxed, and then your

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thoughts start to attack you. And then you take the

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first thought and rather than trying to get rid of

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it actively telling stop stop thinking about whatever. And there

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are experiments that were made to show that just trying

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to dismiss a thought makes it more persistent. This is

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inspired by Dostoevsky's story, and then I studied that was

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done by Dan Wagner the lay Dan Wagner from Harvard University,

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where telling people not to think about white beards just

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makes them think about white bears. More So, labeling is

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a good technique for avoiding this problem because when a

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thought shows up, you just label it at in some dimensions.

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For example, you think to yourself, is this a positive, negative,

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or neutral thought? Is this about to me or about others?

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Is it internal or external? Is it about the past,

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future of Just choose any of these dimensions, and it's

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pretty magical and it's hard for me as a scientists

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to say this, so we try to study it so

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it won't be just magical, but rather we'll be able

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to explain it. The moment you label a thought, most

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thoughts kind of disappear, and then you're ready for the

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next thought. And I say most thoughts because obviously you

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cannot treat traumas like this. Some thoughts are so intrusive

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and so painful that you can just label them, you know, past, present, future,

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and they disappear. So some thoughts are more persistent than others,

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but everyday thoughts that can bother you. If you label them,

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then gradually have less and less thoughts occupying your mind,

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and as a result, you're just less occupied. Your mind

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is less occupied, so you can say it's less mind monitoring,

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but you could also say you freed your mind to other,

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more purposeful and meaningful processes. I just creative incubation. So

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my reservation about meditation, and I should qualify it also

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to your listeners that I'm very far from being an expert.

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I'm excited, an enthusiastic beginner, and I'm by no mean

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an expert in meditation of Buddhism. But I do like

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to drive to derive some insights from what I experienced.

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The first had so one thing I learned and I

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talked about this. I elaborate on this in the book

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is that with all the respect to being mindful and

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being in the present, there are a few things that

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I kind of make me believe and make me tell

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people that I don't think mindfulness is stayed for twenty

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four to seven to be the two reasons. One of

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them is that if we're really living in the in

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the present, just in the present, one hundred percent, the

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moment we get out of the house will be will

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get run over by a bus, because you do have

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to think about the past and you do have to

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project it for the future. If our mind is proactive,

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it constantly takes our experience and projected to the future. Right,

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so just before talking with you, we've never met, I

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never had this conversation with this specific podcast, but I

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could take my experience from other interviews and other podcasts

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and project and be more ready than the first time.

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So we always take the past, so we cannot nobody

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can claim that there one hundred percent living in the present.

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That's one thing. The second thing is that I realized

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that by being mindful, I'm really becoming a witness to

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my experiences. So I kind of I'm mindful of all

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the elements around me. I'm mindful of the conversation and

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as we said before, the intentions of the person I'm

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talking to. Or here we are having a nice conversation

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and I'm sitting in my kitchen and you're sitting in

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your studio in your office, and we have this laptop,

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and there are things around me, and you're smiling, and

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maybe you like what I say. And no, kind of

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I'm mindful of all the elements, but as a result,

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I'm not immersed in the actual experience myself. So there's

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a third stay that I'm talking about, which is the immersion.

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I actually start the book we're talking about immersion. I know.

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I started with an example, a provocative example from the

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world of BDSM, just to attract the readers, But it's

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really something that transcends to all walks of life where

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you really want to be immersed in it. So I'll give

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you an example. Maybe it's an extreme example, but being

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in a roller coaster, you're not being mindful and saying

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to your saying, oh, we're moving fast. Look at this

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handle and look at this screaming people. You are screaming yourself.

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You are in the experience and as I like to say, say,

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you don't want to be the dancer. You want to

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be the dance. So it's a little poetic, but that's

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the idea really that So mindfulness makes you mind that

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of all the elements of the experience, but it takes away,

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at least in my mind, from your personal subjective immersed

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00:21:18.039 --> 00:21:22.279
experience itself. So mindfulness is great, it's a great gift.

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But we need to realize when is a certain state

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good for us and when we prefer it to be

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in a different state.

359
00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:35.000
Totally, I would agree. I want to talk to you

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about the immersion that you're talking about. When you talk

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about being fully immersed in a situation like you mentioned

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the roller coaster, is that the equivalent of, for example,

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the flow state that Mahichi sent me. High has written

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about and talked about that being fully absorbed. Yeah, yeah, I.

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Do elaborate on the comparison to some extent in the book,

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and it's different, but it's in the same genre, I

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would say. I mean, he was talking more about achieving

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goals and about level of challenge and a level of

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challenge that needs to be maintained. I'm talking more about

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enjoyment of your experience. It doesn't only have to be

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a enjoyment, but being able to distinguish these different states

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being mindful, being observer, or being immersed is really helpful

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because you know, when you're lying on a dentist chair

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and a dentist's office and they're doing a root canal,

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I don't want to be in the present, and I

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don't want to be immersed. I want to be somewhere else.

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I want to be wondering and fantasizing that I'm on

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some deserted island having fun. So there is a time

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and place for each state to be, and we should

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not feel guilty that we are not in the present

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or only in the present, because you know, we just

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want to minimize the friction between the demands of the

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situation and the state we're it.

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I think that's the benefit of mindfulness, really, isn't it.

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It's being recognizing in the moment where your mind is

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00:23:05.799 --> 00:23:08.839
so that you can choose to direct it somewhere else.

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Not that we have to be observing everything all the time,

388
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but just to be able to register as quickly as

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00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:21.519
possible when we're going down that unhelpful path. Okay, you

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00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:25.920
talk about Mosha that when we're in that immersion state,

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00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:32.319
that the DMN, the default mode network, is not so active.

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So what's nice about this emergen state is that not

393
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only that you wander less, more generally, you just thinkless.

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Think about your most recent roller coaster experience or any

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experience there. With this level of intensity, there's no room

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for you to be drifting. You can't be on a

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roller coaster as a metaphor or anything else as intense

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and be thinking, Oh, I need to move the laundry

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from the machine to the to the dryer. Right, there's

400
00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:08.720
no room for this. You're just you're all taken by

401
00:24:08.759 --> 00:24:13.079
the experience. So you're wandering. Your your defaultment network, which

402
00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:16.799
is the platform for mind wandering, is being shut off

403
00:24:16.839 --> 00:24:21.359
because all your neurons now are immersed. Well, this is

404
00:24:21.400 --> 00:24:23.720
not a formal way to say it, but all your

405
00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:27.240
capacity now is taken by the present experience. And what's

406
00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:30.079
great about such experiences is that you don't need to

407
00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:33.720
be trended in mindfulness. The experience is so show that

408
00:24:33.799 --> 00:24:36.880
it pulls you in. And if we could learn from

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this and project it to more everyday experiences like eating

410
00:24:40.359 --> 00:24:43.440
blueberries that I like and mention in the book, imagine

411
00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:47.839
that we can have a blueberry eating a blueberry experience

412
00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:52.039
be comparable to a roller coaster or this VIDSM example

413
00:24:52.119 --> 00:24:55.000
I gave there. The idea here is unally that uh

414
00:24:55.359 --> 00:25:00.839
in the our entire life can be as con as

415
00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:04.079
immersive and we don't have to wait for this extreme

416
00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:07.880
examples to be immersed. But yes, one of the characteristics

417
00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:11.599
of this state of immersion is not thinking or thinking

418
00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:14.599
much less. You definitely don't narrate your experience, and you

419
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:18.400
definitely don't wander to kind of errands that you need

420
00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:19.359
to take care of after.

421
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:21.960
When you talk about being able to bring that fully

422
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:30.720
immersed state to any everyday experience, is there a way

423
00:25:30.759 --> 00:25:35.400
that we can intentionally do that. I feel like just

424
00:25:35.559 --> 00:25:39.000
by default we're talking about the default mode, we just

425
00:25:39.640 --> 00:25:43.200
tend to be somewhere else. We live in this constant

426
00:25:43.279 --> 00:25:47.039
state of dissatisfaction. That's what the whole Buddhist thing is, right,

427
00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:51.119
It's like this that our default is to generally be

428
00:25:51.880 --> 00:25:54.839
noticing what's wrong. It's a bit cold in this room.

429
00:25:54.920 --> 00:25:58.000
I'm not sure I like that person sitting next to me.

430
00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:00.400
You know, that's where our mind goes. How do we

431
00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:03.640
get into that fully immersed pleasant state.

432
00:26:04.359 --> 00:26:08.440
Yeah, so again asking a multifaceted question. I like it,

433
00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:10.680
so it's it. Let me just try to cover all

434
00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:14.359
the basis that you open here. So one of them

435
00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:17.720
is that I agree with everything you said until you

436
00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:21.880
start talking about the suffering or the complaints we have.

437
00:26:22.839 --> 00:26:25.680
Mind money can also be good. I was like, you know,

438
00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:28.880
it's great. I'm enjoying this conversation. Afterwards, I'm going for

439
00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:31.759
a run on the beach. Life is good. So mind

440
00:26:31.799 --> 00:26:34.640
mother is perfectly fine. I can be in a different

441
00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:36.680
state of mind. I can be in a different mood

442
00:26:36.759 --> 00:26:40.599
and be offended by the body order of the person

443
00:26:40.680 --> 00:26:45.240
meditating next to me, or by my demanding stomach that

444
00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:49.599
wants lunch already. And of course we all have these fluctuations,

445
00:26:49.599 --> 00:26:51.480
and there's no good or bad as long as it's

446
00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:55.519
not chronic and it's not pathological. Then you know, sometimes

447
00:26:55.519 --> 00:27:00.000
we're like this, I'm more grumpy, and sometimes we're more content.

448
00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:03.400
I'm more happy with this. Yes, I agree with your intuition.

449
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:09.240
It's not really as artificial as Okay, let's be immersed now,

450
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:12.960
It's really not It's like saying let's be happy now.

451
00:27:13.079 --> 00:27:15.680
It's really not something that you can someone like that.

452
00:27:16.119 --> 00:27:20.359
But by understanding the conditions that help you maximize the

453
00:27:20.440 --> 00:27:23.039
chances like I outline the book and not like I.

454
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:25.720
It's not like I have a magic prescription for this.

455
00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:27.799
I do elaborate on this in the book. But at

456
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:30.400
the same time, there is an extent of a personal

457
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:34.799
journey here and personal fitness of what makes you be immersed.

458
00:27:34.839 --> 00:27:37.559
So I know that if my kids are taken care

459
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of and I know where everybody is and they're busy

460
00:27:39.880 --> 00:27:42.240
and happy and well fed, and they have shelter, and

461
00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:46.039
now I can be immersed in my own experience, then

462
00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:49.359
I'm like, no, this is for me in one condition

463
00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:53.200
where where it kind of promotes or increases the like

464
00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:55.880
you of an immersive experience. I don't think we can

465
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walk around and I agree with you walk around life

466
00:27:57.799 --> 00:28:00.000
and say okay, let's be more immersed. Let's be more immersed.

467
00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:05.160
But by distinguishing learning more about these different states you

468
00:28:05.279 --> 00:28:09.000
can be in, you can just I know it sounds

469
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:12.000
a cliche that being aware is already most of the solution.

470
00:28:12.200 --> 00:28:15.200
But even when I'm not mindful, even though even when

471
00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:17.799
I'm wandering, I know I can catch myself in a

472
00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:20.359
certain state and ask myself for a second, is this

473
00:28:20.559 --> 00:28:23.079
the state I want to be in? Because and I

474
00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:26.880
do encourage all my friends and readers to engage in

475
00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:29.599
mind modering as much as possible. So I don't think

476
00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:31.960
many friends of mine are very happy that I gave

477
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:34.519
them permission to stay in bed and stay you know,

478
00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:37.519
stare at the ceiling for extra fifteen minutes, because this

479
00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:40.920
is really where all the creative juices are are coming from.

480
00:28:41.240 --> 00:28:43.440
So if you're in a good streak of wondering, there's

481
00:28:43.480 --> 00:28:45.599
no reason for you to feel guilty and to stop that.

482
00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:51.640
So being you know, recognizing the state you're in and

483
00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:54.000
just asking yourself. And it doesn't happen on a moment

484
00:28:54.039 --> 00:28:56.359
to moment basis, and I think it's good that it doesn't.

485
00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:58.880
You don't want to be monitoring your state from moment

486
00:28:58.920 --> 00:29:01.839
to moment. But okas like, is this really Why am

487
00:29:01.880 --> 00:29:04.400
I ruminating over this thing? Why am I obsessing about

488
00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:07.000
these thoughts? Is it okay for me to just like

489
00:29:07.079 --> 00:29:09.839
I find myself always wanting to be busy am I

490
00:29:09.880 --> 00:29:12.359
avoiding certain thoughts? Maybe I want to be engaged in

491
00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:14.880
these thoughts or these thoughts are great? Why should I

492
00:29:14.920 --> 00:29:19.559
stop them now? Right? So, understanding those precious states and

493
00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:23.720
being able to recognize when you're in when you're in,

494
00:29:24.359 --> 00:29:27.279
which one of them is already already, can go a

495
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:30.279
long way towards improving your your fitness, you know, the

496
00:29:30.359 --> 00:29:33.720
fitness of your mind with the situation. But I wish

497
00:29:33.799 --> 00:29:38.079
we could all treat life like one big roller coaster

498
00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:41.240
dry ride and be completely immersed. It's not going to

499
00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:44.079
work like this, So it's good that our mind is dynamic.

500
00:29:44.119 --> 00:29:45.839
It can feed different conditions.

501
00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:48.839
As you were talking, Mosha, I was thinking of Rick

502
00:29:49.160 --> 00:29:52.079
Hands And actually I don't know if he's a scientist

503
00:29:52.160 --> 00:29:54.519
as well, is he not? And yeah, your friends, So

504
00:29:54.599 --> 00:29:56.559
he wrote the book Hardwarre and Happiness, and I think

505
00:29:56.599 --> 00:29:58.799
his intention with that book was to help people to

506
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:03.759
we can't manufacture immersion, but how to prolong those pleasant

507
00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:07.480
experiences and almost why are your brain to go to

508
00:30:08.119 --> 00:30:12.279
more of the joy and to really savor the pleasant

509
00:30:12.680 --> 00:30:15.920
when you do catch yourself having those those experiences.

510
00:30:16.319 --> 00:30:18.839
Yeah, maybe we're not such good friends because I didn't

511
00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:21.480
know about this book, but they should look it up.

512
00:30:24.799 --> 00:30:26.680
We used to be postdocs together and I have a

513
00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:28.799
lot of respect to this research. I didn't know about

514
00:30:28.839 --> 00:30:29.839
this book.

515
00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:35.119
So my last question is in the back of the book,

516
00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:36.920
and I would recommend that people do gone by it

517
00:30:36.920 --> 00:30:39.400
if this is of interest. You've got a section called

518
00:30:39.400 --> 00:30:41.319
from the Lab to Everyday Life, which is you know

519
00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:45.920
how we can apply this knowledge, this idea that mind

520
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:49.039
wandering is not all bad and use it to our benefits.

521
00:30:49.079 --> 00:30:51.480
So before you go, are they just a couple of

522
00:30:51.480 --> 00:30:53.759
tips you can share with listeners about how they can

523
00:30:53.799 --> 00:30:55.799
harness the benefits of mind wandering.

524
00:30:56.119 --> 00:30:59.119
Yeah. It's funny because when the editor asked me to

525
00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:02.240
add such an as, I felt repelled. As a scientist.

526
00:31:02.279 --> 00:31:04.000
You know, it's a it's a bad word to do

527
00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:07.880
anything applicable. It's like but and I didn't want it.

528
00:31:08.039 --> 00:31:10.680
Sounds like prescriptions. But in retrospect, I'm very happy I

529
00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:12.440
see the response of people, and I think it's a

530
00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:15.400
it's a useful appendix, if I might say so manyself.

531
00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:19.079
So the idea there is I to talk it's to

532
00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:22.039
some extent on the fact that mind wandering, and we

533
00:31:22.119 --> 00:31:25.920
didn't mention here this in the conversation that it's something

534
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:28.920
that happens automatic and in a way has a mind

535
00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:31.519
of itself. We can't decide to mind wander, and we

536
00:31:31.559 --> 00:31:35.079
can't decide to stop what mind wandering while we're at it.

537
00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:38.079
Of course, in between wanderings you can decide, okay, I'm

538
00:31:38.119 --> 00:31:40.839
going to do the dishes now, or go go into

539
00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:43.359
a call a friend, and then you stop. But otherwise,

540
00:31:43.400 --> 00:31:45.920
when you're in it, it's something that is automatic and

541
00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:51.200
it's beyond our conscious control, and you can truly tell yourself, okay,

542
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:55.519
let's mind wander now about this issue. Because by the

543
00:31:55.599 --> 00:31:58.519
nature of drifting, it kind of it goes anywhere it wants.

544
00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:01.519
So you can decide that you're now going to sit

545
00:32:01.559 --> 00:32:04.640
down and mind wander about a certain issue, but very

546
00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:08.559
quickly you wonder to other places. And it's also good

547
00:32:08.599 --> 00:32:11.599
because if you could instruct your wandering, you will be

548
00:32:11.640 --> 00:32:13.680
creative because you tell it where to go. There's no

549
00:32:13.720 --> 00:32:16.960
there's no room for surprises, right, there's no room for originality.

550
00:32:18.440 --> 00:32:22.200
So for example, we talked about my run too many times,

551
00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:24.680
so before I go out, I can say to myself,

552
00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:27.960
what occupies my mind right now? Because I know I'm

553
00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:30.160
going to be wondering while I run or while I

554
00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:34.480
walk outside. So if the last thing I did before

555
00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:37.839
going out the door was paying the bills or answering

556
00:32:37.880 --> 00:32:40.240
some annoying emails, I know this would be on my mind.

557
00:32:40.279 --> 00:32:42.839
So maybe I should just read a page of a

558
00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:44.920
book that I like, or think about the problem that

559
00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:47.759
I do want, and just maximize the chances that when

560
00:32:47.799 --> 00:32:51.559
I go wandering it will actually find its way to

561
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:56.440
these most recent but interesting things. This is one aspect

562
00:32:56.960 --> 00:33:00.759
to kind of be able to control these things. And

563
00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:05.240
I do like or I like to see the usefulness

564
00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:10.519
of our findings about creativity, realizing that a creative mind

565
00:33:10.599 --> 00:33:13.240
is a happy mind, but it's a reciprocal connection. Also,

566
00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:16.319
a happy mind is more creative. So I'm not talking

567
00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:20.039
about overall life happiness, but just being in a good mood,

568
00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:23.079
not happy, but being in a better mood makes you

569
00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:25.680
more likely to be creative. So these things can be

570
00:33:25.720 --> 00:33:28.799
taken into account of our workplace and our home and

571
00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:31.839
with our friends. So yeah, so there's a long list

572
00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:35.119
of things that people are welcome to to try in

573
00:33:35.160 --> 00:33:36.039
their own lives.

574
00:33:36.279 --> 00:33:38.359
And it sounds like mosha. When you go for a run,

575
00:33:38.720 --> 00:33:41.599
you go out for a run with the intention you

576
00:33:41.680 --> 00:33:43.839
know that you'll be in mind wondering, So you're not

577
00:33:44.480 --> 00:33:48.400
plugging an audio book or something else in to fill

578
00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:51.839
your mind. You're deliberately allowing that space.

579
00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:55.599
Yeah, I'm avoiding news altogether. I don't listen to news.

580
00:33:55.599 --> 00:33:59.960
I don't watch it. I mean, I try to minimize things.

581
00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:01.599
I don't want it in my mind. Of course, you

582
00:34:01.640 --> 00:34:04.440
can't really control it one hundred percent, but you can. No,

583
00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:08.199
it's your mind, it's you. It's your privilege to be

584
00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:11.119
able to filter what you wanted and what you don't.

585
00:34:11.159 --> 00:34:13.599
Of course is we are very far from one hundred

586
00:34:13.639 --> 00:34:16.639
percent control over it, but you can maximize the chances.

587
00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:19.480
Masha, thank you so much for your time today. Enjoy

588
00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:20.639
your runck yes.

589
00:34:20.599 --> 00:34:22.920
Thank you very much. Guess it's such pleasure talking with you.

590
00:34:27.159 --> 00:34:30.519
Masha Bar's book Mind Wondering How it can improve your

591
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:33.639
mood and boost your creativity is available now in all

592
00:34:33.679 --> 00:34:36.960
good bookstores. I will put a link to order that

593
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:39.760
in the show notes. If that's interest to you, don't forget.

594
00:34:39.800 --> 00:34:42.000
If you enjoyed this episode, and if you enjoyed the show,

595
00:34:42.039 --> 00:34:43.760
please do you think about leaving us a five star

596
00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:47.159
rating and review. Share the podcast with your friends come

597
00:34:47.159 --> 00:34:50.599
over and connect with me on Instagram cast on Underscore XO.

598
00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:54.320
I'm also now on TikTok cast on Underscore XO. Or

599
00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:57.039
hit me up hello at kastan dot com if there

600
00:34:57.119 --> 00:34:59.119
is anybody in particularly you would like me to speak

601
00:34:59.159 --> 00:35:01.320
to or topic you love us to cover on the show.

602
00:35:01.719 --> 00:35:03.960
I cannot wait to catch you in the next episode

603
00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:12.760
of Crappy to Happy listener