March 6, 2022

How to change your relationship with alcohol with Annie Grace

How to change your relationship with alcohol with Annie Grace
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How to change your relationship with alcohol with Annie Grace
How to change your relationship with alcohol with Annie Grace
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Season 7 Physical Health

If you’ve ever tried to quit alcohol, or even just dabbled with the idea, you’ve probably come across Annie Grace. She’s one of the world’s leading thinkers on the topic, and author of the hugely successful books This Naked Mind and The Alcohol Experiment.In this chat with Cass Dunn, Annie discusses:

  • Her own battle with excessive drinking and how she turned things around
  • Why asking yourself ‘am I an alcoholic?’ can be so counter-productive, and what questions you can ask yourself instead
  • Why self-compassion is essential to successfully quitting or reducing alcohol
  • How to turn all or nothing thinking into curiosity and experimentation
  • What happened when Annie filmed herself drinking two bottles of wine after quitting drinking
  • And so much more!

Connect with Annie:https://thisnakedmind.com/
Buy her books here: This Naked Mind: booktopia.kh4ffx.net/this-naked-mindThe Alcohol Experiment: booktopia.kh4ffx.net/alcohol-experiment
Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypodwww.tiktok.com/crappytohappypod
Join the free 7-day Happiness Challenge:www.cassdunn.com/happiness

Connect with Cass:

www.cassdunn.com
www.instagram.com/cassdunn_xo

Contact Crappy to Happy:

Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
www.crappytohappypod.com
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypod
www.tiktok.com/@crappytohappypod


Are you a coach, therapist, service provider or solopreneur struggling with self-doubt and imposter syndrome? I'd love to talk to you! (for market research purposes only!)

Book a call with me to share your experience.

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Upgrade to Paid in the Spotify or Apple podcasts App to get immediate access to "Beyond Happy", the subscriber only podcast featuring bonus content, meditations and more!
Transcript
WEBVTT

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A listener production.

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This is Crappita Happy and I am your host, Cas Doun.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist and mindfulness meditation teacher

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and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In

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this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent

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people who are experts in their field and who have

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something of value to share that will help you feel

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less crappy and more happy. If you have ever tried

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to quit drinking alcohol, or even just dabbled with the

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idea of drinking a little bit less, you have probably

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come across the name Annie Grace. Annie is one of

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the world's leading thinkers on this topic. She's written two

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incredibly successful books on how to quit or reduce drinking,

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plus she started her own foundation and an online thirty

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day program called The Alcohol Experiment. Annie knows from her

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own personal experience that trying to quit or even just

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reduce your drinking can be incredibly difficult. It's often caught

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up with a lot of shame, fear, self hatred, self sabotage,

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not to mention all of that social pressure and judgment

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that comes when you tell people that you're trying to

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cut back on alcohol. That is why I find Annie's

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approach so refreshing. It is all about fostering self compassion

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and approaching quitting with curiosity and experimentation, while she arms

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you with loads of knowledge about the science behind alcohol's

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impact on your brain and body. I learned so much

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in this chat with Annie about her own battle with

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drinking and her truly unique and life changing approach to

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changing your drinking habits. Here's my chat with Annie Grace.

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Annie Grace, Welcome to the Crappy to Happy podcast.

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Oh thanks so much for having me Cas, It's wonderful

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to be here.

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Annie. I think anybody who has ever ventured into the

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alcohol free space, anybody who has thought about changing their

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relationship with alcohol, who has quit is thinking about quitting,

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has at some point heard your name, read your book,

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been recommended your book. Your book is called This Naked Mind,

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which came out a few years ago, and also your

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thirty day alcohol experiment is widely known and talked about

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and referred and recommended, So you're a bit of an

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icon in the alcohol free space globally. I think it's

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fair to say I thought that for our listeners it

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would be just great to start with a little bit

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of your story and your background and how this all

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came to be.

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Oh yeah, I'd love to. So it's so funny to

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hear you describe me that way, because it was almost accidental.

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To be really honest with you, it felt very you know,

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I like to say, I'm a bit of an accidental author.

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So what had happened was I actually didn't drink a

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lot in college, and not a lot in high school,

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just sort of here and there, certainly didn't have any

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sort of hold on me. And then I got married

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and I moved to New York City and I remember

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someone taking me out for drinks and the drink was

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twenty five dollars. I ordered a Cosmopolitan and I just said, right,

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that is way too much money to be spending on

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a drink. And so I just sort of stopped going

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out to happy hour. And fast forward a few promotions,

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maybe a year or so later. I actually had a

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boss take me aside and sort of say, well, why

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aren't you showing up at happy hour? What is the deal?

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And I was like, oh, I don't really drink. I said,

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oh Annie, no, no, no, let me take you under

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my wing and tell you it is not about drinking.

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It is about you know, happy hours, kind of like

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the golf course. It's where the deals are done. It's

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where your ideas will be showcased. And so I said, oh, okay.

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So I actually said, well, right then, I'm going to

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have a plan. And I would have a plan, which

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would be drinking a pint of water and then a

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glass of wine to make sure I never got too tipsy.

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And I found out that there was a term for

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this recently, but I thought it was, you know, one

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of my original ideas, obviously, not that I would go

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into the bathroom and throw up that last glass of

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wine just to keep drinking. Because everybody was twice my age,

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mostly men, seasoned drinkers, and I was, you know, fresh

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out of out of college. And the thing about alcohol

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is it is it is a sneaky devil. So what

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happened to be just happy hour drinking and drinking on

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work trips, Suddenly I'd come home to my apartment and

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I'd look around and I'd say, oh, there's my running

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shoes and there's a bottle of wine. Huh. That looks easier.

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That looks like a easier way to kind of relax.

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And so you have all these tools that you need

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as a human being to kind of maintain your sanity

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and your well being, and I started replacing them methodically

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with drinking. And you know, fast forward about a decade.

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I had two young boys, I was traveling in between

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the UK and the US very frequently and then all

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around the world for my role at the time. I

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was global head of marketing for a multinational company. And

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I was drinking close to two bottles of wine a night.

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And so I did what anyone else would do in

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this situation. Drinking started to take its toll and there

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was more of a cost than a benefit. I said, Okay,

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well I'll just cut back, no big deal. And the

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truth was that it was a big deal. It wasn't

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just easy to cut back. And I think that marks

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the point at which I became very fixated on alcohol.

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It was the point at which I decided to cut back. Interestingly,

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I don't think I thought about alcohol as much when

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I was just drinking it with abandoned as when I

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started to try and cut back, and then it became

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fixated is the best word for it. You know, I

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was thinking about how much I was drinking, was I

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going to allow myself one drink or two drinks. What

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if I overdid it? You know, it became this narrative

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that started to take up so much space in my

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mind about how much was I going to let myself,

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creating these rules for myself which I then break, and

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really almost spiraling into this pretty toxic internal place of

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our with myself both wanting to drink and not drink

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at the same time. And you know, if you think

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of conflict, if we even witness conflict somebody walking down

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the street, you'd be upset. Your body would feel something.

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If it was in your own home, you'd be all

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the more so upset. But what we don't realize is

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that when you have conflict inside your own mind, which

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most of us do all the time, it is very

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toxic to the body, to the mind, to the spirit.

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But you're not really even aware of that because it's

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just kind of like as if drums are always playing

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and you don't even realize they're playing until they become silent.

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And so all of my attempts to drink last didn't work.

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And I was coming back from London one day and

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I had a very very boozy trip. I had had

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a few in the morning, which was one of my

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little guardrails in my head. Well, if I don't drink

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you know, hard alcohol in the morning, then I'm not

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really it's not really a problem yet. But I'd gone

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ahead and ran right over that little boundary. And I

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was coming back from this work trip just so upset

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with myself and beating myself up, also mostly drunk, and

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just hysterical and feeling hopeless because everything I'd been trying

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for years now to get back in control was not

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only not working, it was arguably making it worse. I

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was thinking more about drinking than I had been thinking

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when I was just again drinking with abandon, and I

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in that moment, decided that I was going to do

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something radically different, and I was going to stop trying

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to stop drinking, and instead I was going to find

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out why Why was it that I used to be

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able to take it or leave it? Why was it

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that I used to be able to have a drink

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and it would be no big deal? And now this

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fermented liquid and a glass seemed to run my whole life.

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I thought about it probably more than I thought about

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anything else at that time. Husband, children, job, included and

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that launched me on about a year long process where

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I kept drinking because I knew that that internal noise,

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that internal conflict was so loud that I wouldn't be

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able to hear anything new if I continued in that way.

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So I kept drinking. But I made a list of

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all of the reasons that I drank, and I methodically

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went through them. And we live in a beautiful day

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and age where you can actually just go on to Google,

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scholar or other research databases and find studies and pay

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fifty bucks one hundred bucks and download these studies. And

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I really started educating myself about what alcohol really was

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and what it did in the brain and body. And

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I had kind of this large body of my own research.

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And about i'd say twelve or thirteen months after that began,

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I remember walking out of my office one evening and

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telling my husband, like, do you want to drink with

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me again? Tonight's to night, because after tonight, I think

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I'm done drinking. And he looked at me as if,

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you know, he certainly didn't believe me. But that was

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really it, And that was over seven years ago. And

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what had happened was I was like, other people need

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to know this is this is mind boggling. How do

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we not know this? How is this stuff not printed

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on every single bottle of wine? Like how? And I

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just felt, you know, so incensed by that. I had

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no intention of putting my corporate job or anything else

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like that, but I ended up putting making all this

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research into a very large PDF and along with all

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my journaling and all my notes, and I just put

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it out sort of a free download on a website

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and I shared it in a few different groups, and

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within two weeks, twenty thousand people had downloaded it. And

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I started getting emails sort of from all over the

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world with people saying, hey, this really helped me, This

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was amazing. And one email in particular stood out and

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he said, you know, you really should make this a book.

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And I was like, well, I don't know how to

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do that. I certainly don't have a platform, you know,

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I'm just going along on my corporate career. But he's like, well,

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you can self publish on Amazon. So I did look

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into it, and it took about a year after that

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for it actually did become self published, because there's quite

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a long process to that whole thing, which I didn't

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realize and then so yeah, So this Naked Mind came

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out in twenty fifteen as a self published book, but

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then you know, got enough train action that it is

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now traditionally published because it you know, just organically sold

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so many copies. And that's where we are today.

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I think there are so many people listening to this

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and listening to you who would just be nodding along,

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you know, seeing themselves in your story and what you

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talk about, like the amount of time and the mental

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energy that it consumes. And I think also when people

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find them in that space, they're asking, well, am I

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an alcoholic? Does this mean I'm an alcoholic? And that's

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bad right out? Being an alcoholic is bad because you

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want to be one of those normal people who can

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drink normally. That is a really unhelpful question to ask,

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and I think you would agree with that. So can

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you talk to that a little bit about this place

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where people find themselves where they're asking the wrong questions

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and what should they be asking themselves instead?

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Absolutely so I found myself just you know these Really

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the brain is kind of like Google, right, Like if

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you ask it a question, instantly provide a response, and

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you can do that right now, what color shirit am

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I wearing? Right instantly? If you can see my shirt,

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it's going to tell you what color should I'm wearing?

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Or is it sunny outside? Instant response. And so when

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you're asking a question to which the answers are just terrible,

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you're going to create a lot of fear in that question.

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And as drinkers, what do we do with stress and fear?

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We either deny it or we drink more to plot

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it out. I mean, that's sort of what we've been

224
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accustomed to. And so for me, those questions were what's

225
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wrong with me, which of course my brain would serve

226
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up plenty of answers to, and am I an alcoholic?

227
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And you know, those were super unhelpful questions. The alcoholic

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one specifically is very unhelpful because what I've learned through

229
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my research is that scientifically and medically it is completely imprecise.

230
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It is it is not even a term that's used

231
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in the text that diagnose disorders. It's actually alcohol use disorder,

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which is a very useful spectrum of use and abuse.

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It's just as a tangent, a total aside. But in

234
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the alcohol use disorder spectrum, you have mild alcohol use

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disorder if you answer yes to two questions, and those

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two of the questions include, do I need to drink

237
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more than I used to to get the same effect?

238
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And every drinker I know would say yes. And another

239
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one of those questions is do I ever have moments

240
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where I feel like I drink too much and I

241
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regret how much I just drank? Again, every drinker I

242
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know would say yes. So by that definition, this is

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not a conversation with this tiny percentage of the population

244
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that we've deemed our alcoholics. This is an everybody conversation,

245
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every drinker conversation. And when you have eighty five percent

246
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of Western adults drinking, it really does become an everyone conversation.

247
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But when we create this dichotomy, when we create this

248
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us and them black and white, it not only obscures

249
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the fact that alcohol is toxic and harmful in addiction

250
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to the human body, you know, the one with like

251
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brain cells that we all share and the one that

252
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breeds the human body, not just the alcoholic quote body,

253
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but it also allows us to say, well, if I'm

254
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not an alcoholic, then I'm fine, right, And so we

255
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do things like take dry januaries to prove to ourselves

256
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that we can take thirty days without a drink, then

257
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I must not be an alcoholic. Or I had all

258
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sorts of little rules in my mind, like I was

259
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mentioning earlier, if I didn't drink vodka in the morning,

260
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then we're hard alcohol in the morning. Then I certainly

261
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wasn't an alcoholic. And so we try to prove to

262
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ourselves where we are where we are not, which almost

263
00:13:38.720 --> 00:13:42.279
facilitates that we're going to have to fall further before

264
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reckoning with our behavior and deciding that we want to change.

265
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And I think, you know, it's particularly unhelpful. I had

266
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a specific experience about five six years before I stopped drinking,

267
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really at the time when I was starting to question

268
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my drinking because I did live in that limbo for

269
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so long. And the experience was that a friend of

270
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mine who I drank with all the time came over

271
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to my house and I went to pull out a

272
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bottle of wine and she said, oh, I'm not drinking anymore,

273
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and I was like really, She's like yeah. I went

274
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to an AA meeting and I learned that I'm an

275
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alcoholic and I cannot drink anymore in safety and I

276
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was like, oh my gosh, well what about me? What

277
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about my drinking? And she looked at me and she said,

278
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oh no, I learned that I was born this way

279
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and you are not. And so in that moment, which

280
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is very much And I remember when This Naked Mind

281
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was first published, I got some of the most scathing

282
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reviews on Amazon, which said, oh, she's not really an alcoholic,

283
00:14:38.960 --> 00:14:41.480
so she doesn't actually really have a right to have

284
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a voice in this conversation. And who's defining that anyway? Right,

285
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Like I was in pain, And so one of the

286
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things I'm really passionate about is kind of backing up

287
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this conversation, lowering the barrier to entry to where this

288
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becomes a well inness conversation, because quite frankly, that's what

289
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it is. We should never have an instance where you

290
00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:01.679
and I could sit down be having a piece of

291
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cake and we'd both say, oh, just give me a

292
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little slice, because I kind of, you know, don't want

293
00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:08.759
so much sugar. But if we were sitting down and

294
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you know, having a glass of wine, we wouldn't say, oh,

295
00:15:11.799 --> 00:15:13.320
just pour me a little one, because you know, I

296
00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:17.879
don't really want the liver failure and I'm not sure

297
00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:21.000
about the breast cancer, right, Like, we just wouldn't say that.

298
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And if we were to question our drinking, quite likely

299
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we would be looked at as if, oh, well, are

300
00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:29.399
you okay? Do you have a problem? Do you need

301
00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:31.440
me to call someone? Should I not drink in front

302
00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:34.480
of you? Hey, cass Annie's not drinking anymore, let's not

303
00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:37.080
invite her out. You know, all of those sort of

304
00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:39.600
things would begin to happen, which I think is really

305
00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:42.759
unfortunate because the truth of it is that alcohol, just

306
00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:45.360
like sugar, is an addictive substance to the human brain.

307
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It's not just addictive to some subset of the population

308
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that we've invented that actually just obscures the fact that

309
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it's addictive to everyone.

310
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And so therefore, the question that we really should be

311
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asking is is this one of the questions that you

312
00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:01.120
started to ask yourself? Like is this it's working for me?

313
00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:01.440
Like?

314
00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:04.919
Is this costing me more than I think it's giving me?

315
00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:05.200
Like?

316
00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:08.200
What are the questions that people should really be asking themselves.

317
00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:11.320
I think one of the most useful questions is would

318
00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:14.919
my life be a bit better drinking a bit less alcohol?

319
00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:18.600
And I think that question allows for an entry point

320
00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:21.840
that doesn't feel scary, it doesn't feel forever. I actually

321
00:16:21.879 --> 00:16:24.039
think that's another place where we've really gotten it wrong

322
00:16:24.200 --> 00:16:26.279
as a narrative. Is this idea that you have to

323
00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:29.759
get sober or nothing else, Because maybe that's true for

324
00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:34.720
a lot of people, but when that becomes the goal,

325
00:16:35.639 --> 00:16:40.080
we don't enter into the conversation. And so actually I

326
00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:42.919
like the reframe of thinking about how we want to

327
00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:45.679
feel because if we take the goal away from if

328
00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:47.440
your goal and you can just think of it for

329
00:16:47.480 --> 00:16:49.279
yourself right now, if you think of you know, for

330
00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:51.399
anyone listening, if you think of, okay, what's my goal

331
00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:53.840
around alcohol? And you think, okay, my goal is I'm

332
00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:56.159
never going to drink again. You know, not only is

333
00:16:56.200 --> 00:16:59.679
that really heavy feeling, but it also you're not going

334
00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:02.919
to know you're successful until you're dead, so you're actually

335
00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:05.960
never going to know you're successful. But even if you say, okay,

336
00:17:05.960 --> 00:17:08.240
well I only want two drinks a week, or I

337
00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:10.640
only want to drink three nights a week, like those

338
00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:14.000
are very heavy feeling goals, and they're loaded with failure

339
00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:16.400
because what happens if we can't achieve it? What does

340
00:17:16.440 --> 00:17:19.680
that mean about us? Right? And so we're almost starting

341
00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:21.640
on the back foot with those goals. But if you

342
00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:24.759
change the narrative and you say, okay, what if I

343
00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:28.039
create a goal about how I want to feel? And

344
00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:31.160
for me that goal. When I finally created that goal,

345
00:17:31.240 --> 00:17:33.839
it was I want alcohol to be small and irrelevant

346
00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:36.079
in my life like it used to be. I don't

347
00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:37.880
want it to take up all this mental space. I

348
00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:41.000
don't want it to be controlling you know my decisions.

349
00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:43.519
I don't want it to play a big part. I

350
00:17:43.559 --> 00:17:45.799
just wanted to be small and irrelevant. If that meant

351
00:17:45.880 --> 00:17:48.480
I drank on occasion, that was okay with me. If

352
00:17:48.519 --> 00:17:50.839
it meant I never drink again, I allowed that to

353
00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:54.319
also be okay with me. But I didn't predetermine the outcome.

354
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And when I shifted to that sort of question and

355
00:17:57.240 --> 00:18:00.319
those sorts of goals, then I was allowed to kind

356
00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:03.680
of experiment and try what felt good, what didn't feel

357
00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:07.880
good without this heaviness. And so I think, would I

358
00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:10.720
be happy you're drinking a bit less? Because there's an

359
00:18:10.759 --> 00:18:14.160
answer to that. You can try that out, you can

360
00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:17.400
take a bit of a break and see how you feel. Right.

361
00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:20.480
There's an answer to that, and it doesn't come with

362
00:18:20.559 --> 00:18:23.960
the oh man, Well, at some undetermined point in the future,

363
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:26.200
I'm going to make an all or nothing decision about

364
00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:28.640
my drinking for the rest of my entire life. And

365
00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:32.920
the heaviness and that whole idea actually precludes us from

366
00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:35.200
even asking the question to begin with.

367
00:18:35.880 --> 00:18:39.759
Yeah, you raised a really important point in the midst

368
00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:41.759
of that as well. What you said, Well, you were

369
00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:43.720
talking about you can say no to the cake, but

370
00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:45.599
nobody says, I'll just give me a little glass one

371
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:47.599
because of my liver failure and breast cancer and all

372
00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:52.279
the other known consequences of alcohol consumption. Alcohol is the

373
00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:55.559
one drug we have to justify not taking. If you

374
00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:59.160
go to anywhere socially in Western society and you say

375
00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:03.160
I'm not drinking and you previously have been drinking, the

376
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:10.240
resistance from other people is very real. People have a

377
00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:13.160
problem with other people not drinking, and that's a real

378
00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:16.119
challenge for a lot of people. I experienced it myself.

379
00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:18.240
I haven't. I gave up drinking about eighteen months ago,

380
00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:20.200
and I'm one of those people who has not said

381
00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:21.880
I will never drink again. In fact, I have had

382
00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:23.880
a glass of champagne a couple of months ago. Didn't

383
00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:27.400
like the taste of it to be honest, interestingly, but

384
00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:30.799
you often when people start to try to set these

385
00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:33.319
limits and put boundaries and start to withdraw from that

386
00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:36.359
whole social scene involving alcohol, they met with a lot

387
00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:38.799
of resistance. Why do you think that is, Annie.

388
00:19:38.839 --> 00:19:41.079
Yeah, it's such a good question. It's something that everybody

389
00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:44.079
who's trying to change their relationship with alcohol will run

390
00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:47.640
up against to some degree or another. And you know,

391
00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:50.160
the reality of it, you know, to just cut to

392
00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:55.079
the source of the issue is that, well, first of all, changed,

393
00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:59.880
no matter how positive, in any relationship, is going to

394
00:19:59.880 --> 00:20:04.039
be difficult. It's going to be something that creates insecurity

395
00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:07.000
because the person on the other side of the relationship

396
00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:09.039
is going to think, oh, well, now are you better

397
00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:12.599
than me? Now? Are you judging me? Now? Am I

398
00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:14.920
not good enough for you? All of those sorts of

399
00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:19.200
fears surface, but even more pronounced. If there's any shred

400
00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:24.720
of questioning or discontent in their own drinking, your decision

401
00:20:24.759 --> 00:20:26.720
not to drink has held up a big fat marror

402
00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:29.640
to say, what about you? Even if you don't mean it,

403
00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:32.079
even if there's nothing in you that has any intention

404
00:20:32.119 --> 00:20:35.000
of doing that. That is just the dynamic that occurs

405
00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:37.759
and how people react to that is a myriad of

406
00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:40.920
different ways. But often people would become defensive or they'll

407
00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:43.240
start to sort of say, oh, well great. You know,

408
00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:46.599
I had a friend who literally told me that she

409
00:20:46.759 --> 00:20:49.400
was really keep in mind, this woman and I had

410
00:20:49.400 --> 00:20:51.839
been friends since kindergarten, so the very first year of

411
00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:55.559
school that you could ever go to, and we had

412
00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:59.799
grown up together, we graduated high school together, We've maintained

413
00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:03.720
our friendship all through UNI and beyond. And when I

414
00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:07.799
stopped drinking, she kind of ghosted for a little while,

415
00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:10.279
and then she finally came back on the scene and

416
00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:12.559
she's like, can I tell you something. I was like, yeah.

417
00:21:12.680 --> 00:21:15.519
She's like, I'm really afraid that our friendship is going

418
00:21:15.559 --> 00:21:18.160
to be totally different now. And I was like, oh

419
00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:23.079
my gosh. We have literally been friends for our entire lives,

420
00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:27.599
and the majority of those years neither of us were drinking.

421
00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:31.240
So but the presupposition was that somehow it was going

422
00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:34.640
to be different between us, and I think that, you know,

423
00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:40.200
that comes from worrying about all of those things. How

424
00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:41.680
are you going to judge me now? Am I going

425
00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:43.440
to be good enough for you now? And so I

426
00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:45.559
think one of the ways you can diffuse. That dynamic

427
00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:48.559
is really to reassure the person that you know, nothing

428
00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:51.480
has changed. You know, this is no reflection on you

429
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:55.440
or your drinking. And I would do things like, especially

430
00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:58.640
in the corporate scene, where if we would all go

431
00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:02.880
out today or something, I would actually go and order

432
00:22:03.480 --> 00:22:07.519
everybody the drinks first, so I would say, who's drinking red,

433
00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:10.680
who's drinking white, who's drinking cocktails? Order everybody's drink, and

434
00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:12.559
then I kind of take the waitresses side and say, hey,

435
00:22:12.680 --> 00:22:15.559
I'd like a nice tea, because inevitably, if you go

436
00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:17.880
first and you say I want a nice tea, everybody

437
00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:21.119
else sort of shuffles and says, oh, gosh, I guess yes,

438
00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:24.279
boss isn't drinking, so I guess I have to order

439
00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:26.400
a diet coke. And it's all uncomfortable.

440
00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:30.400
So true, And I think the more comfortable you get

441
00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:32.480
with your own decision, obviously the easier it is to

442
00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:36.039
deal with that resistance and those challenges. But in the

443
00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:38.799
early days it is really hard, especially if you're already

444
00:22:38.920 --> 00:22:41.839
feeling uncertain yourself about your own decision, well, you're feeling

445
00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:44.519
anxious about going into those social situations. So I just

446
00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:46.200
want to say for anybody listening. If you have a

447
00:22:46.200 --> 00:22:48.359
friend who says I'm not drinking, can we just like

448
00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:51.079
make a rule that that's fine? What will you have?

449
00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:54.880
What can I get you and not in question or

450
00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:58.799
challenge them, or just want or be will won't hurt?

451
00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:02.240
Or you can stop drink next week? Or one that

452
00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:05.400
I heard was, oh, you're doing dry July, We'll catch

453
00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:09.039
up in August. Oh yeah, I'll catch you next month,

454
00:23:09.559 --> 00:23:12.240
like because apparently I'm not an interesting person to be

455
00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:15.079
with what I'm not drinking, Like that's the message. Right.

456
00:23:16.039 --> 00:23:19.440
We touched a little bit on AA, right, and the

457
00:23:19.480 --> 00:23:22.599
whole philosophy of AA, and again, one thing I think

458
00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:25.400
that people who are questioning their drinking really struggle with is,

459
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:27.559
you know, the label and the stigma of am I

460
00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:30.000
an alcoholic? And what we think that means? And then

461
00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:32.799
this whole idea that I'm somehow like you said, like

462
00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:35.160
it's a disease, I'm born with it, there's no hope

463
00:23:35.160 --> 00:23:38.640
for me. I have to quit drinking forever. Your approach

464
00:23:38.680 --> 00:23:41.640
is fundamentally different from that, and as you say, like

465
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:44.079
it's much more open, it's got a low about barrier

466
00:23:44.119 --> 00:23:50.160
to entry. How do you suggest people in this space

467
00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:53.759
start to make a change, you know, without having to

468
00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:57.000
go down that. Okay, that's it. From today, I'm an alcoholic.

469
00:23:57.039 --> 00:23:59.599
I must never drink alcohol again, because one drink and

470
00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:01.480
it's all I'm going to end up homeless and living

471
00:24:01.880 --> 00:24:05.319
in a strait. You know, how is your approach different?

472
00:24:06.119 --> 00:24:08.039
So I think the first thing, you know, as we

473
00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:11.640
already discussed, is just some more helpful question. And then

474
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:14.880
I think the second thing for me, and sort of

475
00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:18.880
the core principle of everything that I teach and everything

476
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:22.200
that I did to change my own behavior, was curiosity

477
00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:25.559
without judgment, you know, really getting curious about why am

478
00:24:25.599 --> 00:24:30.079
I doing this without judging myself for doing it. And

479
00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:32.440
I know that can be really difficult because the narrative

480
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:35.119
that we've had for so long is that, oh well,

481
00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:37.839
if I don't beat myself up, if I don't judge myself.

482
00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:40.160
I remember waking up at three in the morning just

483
00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:43.559
completely you know, the alcohol is leaving my system. I

484
00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:46.720
feel absolutely terrible. The hangover is starting to creep in,

485
00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:49.440
but I'm wide awake because of this huge car bload

486
00:24:49.480 --> 00:24:52.279
that I got from the drinks. Can't fall back asleep,

487
00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:56.839
feeling all of this self loathing and literally thinking if

488
00:24:56.839 --> 00:24:59.440
I can just make myself see how far I've fallen,

489
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:02.319
and I'll actually wake up and do something about this.

490
00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:06.559
And you know, that narrative of shame and blame like

491
00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:10.000
it is not useful. And there's so much amazing science

492
00:25:10.039 --> 00:25:12.880
that now backs up that a narrative self compassion is

493
00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:15.839
actually one of the keys to change. You know, human

494
00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:21.119
beings we change in two ways, either away from pain

495
00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:24.799
or toward pleasure. And when we change away from pain,

496
00:25:25.559 --> 00:25:29.480
you are forcing a situation where the pain has become

497
00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:33.599
so great that you need to change. And I would

498
00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:35.240
love for us to be able to look at our

499
00:25:35.319 --> 00:25:37.440
drinking and say, wait, wait, wait, I've got a little

500
00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:40.079
pain now, why do I have to let it be

501
00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:42.440
so much more pain? Why can't I get curious about

502
00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:45.680
my behavior and not judge myself? Now? Why can't I

503
00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:48.079
allow that maybe I can have some questions about these

504
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:50.119
things that I'm doing and are they really useful to me?

505
00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:52.440
Is this really helping me? Do I really feel better?

506
00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:56.559
And start to ask myself these useful questions before it

507
00:25:56.599 --> 00:26:00.359
gets really bad. But the societal narrative is such that

508
00:26:00.519 --> 00:26:03.319
especially you know, and this is even true with our

509
00:26:03.400 --> 00:26:06.359
doctors to some degree is that it's almost as if so,

510
00:26:06.440 --> 00:26:08.680
say you're drinking is kind of like causing a little

511
00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:10.400
bit of pain in your life. So it's a little

512
00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:13.200
bit like your wrist is hurting, right, You're like starting

513
00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:14.440
to see a little bit of pain, and you go

514
00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:16.519
into the doctor and you say, hey, you know, I've

515
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:18.960
got this sore wrist. What can I do about it?

516
00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:21.039
And the doctor says, you know what, well, you need

517
00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:23.240
to amputate at the arm. You need to go to

518
00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:25.599
ninety meetings in ninety days. You need to declare yourself

519
00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:27.559
an alcoholic. You need to spend the rest of your

520
00:26:27.559 --> 00:26:33.039
life fighting this disease in you know, somewhat miserable, sobriety

521
00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:36.920
as society paints it for us, and basically your life

522
00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:39.559
as you know it is over. You have to reidentify yourself.

523
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:41.680
You have to admit that you're powerless, and you know,

524
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:43.720
so it's kind of like saying you need to amputate

525
00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:46.119
at the arm. So of course we walk right back

526
00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:48.119
out of the doctor's office and we say forget that,

527
00:26:48.200 --> 00:26:50.359
I'm not going to do that. You know, a few

528
00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:54.079
maybe months years later, not only is our wrist hurting,

529
00:26:54.079 --> 00:26:56.960
but now our wrist and our elbow is hurting. We

530
00:26:57.039 --> 00:26:59.799
go back in. We say, okay, now, now I've got,

531
00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:02.200
you know, two symptoms. My wrist is hurting, my elbows hurting.

532
00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:04.319
What do I need to do? And the doctor's like, no,

533
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:06.880
you need to amputate at the arm. And so of

534
00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:09.599
course we leave again, and we are unwilling to engage

535
00:27:09.640 --> 00:27:12.559
in the conversation. And it isn't until we're really in

536
00:27:12.599 --> 00:27:14.880
so much pain that we're willing to amputate at the

537
00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:18.200
arm that we're willing to engage in this conversation. And

538
00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:21.759
so I think by saying forget all of that, let

539
00:27:21.799 --> 00:27:25.000
me just be curious about my behavior now without judging

540
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:27.559
myself for it, we open up all of these doors

541
00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:30.960
to Okay, what might my life look like if I'm

542
00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:33.240
treating a bit less. Maybe it's going to be terrible,

543
00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:35.480
But I actually don't know that because I haven't had

544
00:27:35.480 --> 00:27:38.640
a sober happy hour in my adult life, So I

545
00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:40.640
actually don't know that a sober happy hour will be

546
00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:43.960
absolutely horrible. You know, I'm not sure yet, But let

547
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:46.119
me be curious. Let me see how it is to

548
00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:49.400
go out and not drink. Maybe it's going to be miserable,

549
00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:51.720
but I'm not going to presuppose that maybe it's not

550
00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:54.160
going to be miserable and just allow that, you know,

551
00:27:54.559 --> 00:27:58.119
maybe we don't know, and let ourselves start to question

552
00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:01.680
that approach of all or nothing.

553
00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:08.720
I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the

554
00:28:08.759 --> 00:28:11.680
benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are

555
00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:14.519
enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe

556
00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:16.880
so that you get notified when you apps drop and

557
00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:19.400
head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen

558
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:28.880
and leave us a rating and review. I think that

559
00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:33.279
what you're talking about really is so useful, that curiosity

560
00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:36.640
without the judgment. There is so much judgment, and there

561
00:28:36.680 --> 00:28:40.799
is so much shame and self loathing, and alcohol exacerbates that, right.

562
00:28:41.240 --> 00:28:45.440
Alcohol makes that worse. It makes everything feel worse. So

563
00:28:46.519 --> 00:28:51.240
coming to it with curiosity, I mean, I found myself

564
00:28:51.319 --> 00:28:53.319
and I think this is useful for everybody. And I

565
00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:56.519
know you talk about this as well, so, oh, you

566
00:28:56.559 --> 00:28:59.359
can't have fun without alcohol. When you go to a party,

567
00:28:59.799 --> 00:29:03.480
it's fun to drink. And then actually stepping back and saying, well,

568
00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:06.200
for how long is it fun? You know, when does

569
00:29:06.200 --> 00:29:09.160
it because it's when does it stop being fun? Is

570
00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:11.519
it still fun when you hung over and throwing up

571
00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:13.079
the next morning. If it's still fun when you're a

572
00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:15.440
wide awake at two in the morning with you know,

573
00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:18.440
horrified and wondering what you did the night before, it

574
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:24.240
is really fun. And it's that really being curious, isn't

575
00:29:24.279 --> 00:29:26.799
it about what? What is the thing that I'm believing

576
00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:29.559
here and that I continue to believe and act as

577
00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:34.440
if it's true, and what might actually be the truth instead?

578
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:36.119
And taking that kind of approach.

579
00:29:36.319 --> 00:29:37.960
Yeah, I love that, and I think that, you know,

580
00:29:38.119 --> 00:29:40.119
just to expand on that a little bit, I would

581
00:29:40.119 --> 00:29:43.319
actually have people because this is one of the things

582
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:46.200
I did myself, but people who who work with us

583
00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:50.279
would actually have them time how long they enjoy that

584
00:29:50.359 --> 00:29:53.440
first drink and you know, how long does it really

585
00:29:53.480 --> 00:29:56.559
make you feel good? Because there's an undeniable sort of

586
00:29:56.640 --> 00:29:59.039
buzz that you get from that drink, and so I'm like, okay,

587
00:29:59.079 --> 00:30:01.319
I want you to time it. And you know, the

588
00:30:01.480 --> 00:30:04.200
average time that people would report is between eighteen and

589
00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:06.519
twenty four minutes, and then they start to kind of

590
00:30:06.519 --> 00:30:09.440
come down off of that, and between eighteen and twenty

591
00:30:09.480 --> 00:30:12.000
four minutes later they want to reach for that next

592
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:14.799
drink to keep that going up, but it never quite

593
00:30:14.839 --> 00:30:18.319
reaches the same level of pleasure as that first drink,

594
00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:22.839
and so they're sort of on this cycle. Interestingly enough,

595
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:25.799
how the brain works is that alcohol is both a

596
00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:28.279
stimulant and a depressant. So for that first eighteen to

597
00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:31.599
twenty four minutes, your brain is actually being stimulated by

598
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:34.640
alcohol and your blood alcohol content is rising. And what's

599
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:37.759
happening there is that you're feeling, you know, those feelings

600
00:30:37.799 --> 00:30:42.359
of lightheadedness, a little bit dizzy, everything feels softer around

601
00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:44.440
the edges. You kind of, you know, maybe feel a

602
00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:47.720
bit more energetic, a bit more outgoing, maybe your inhibitions

603
00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:50.799
are lowered a bit. But research shows it's about twenty

604
00:30:50.839 --> 00:30:53.400
minutes later your body says, hey, hey, hey, this is

605
00:30:53.400 --> 00:30:56.160
a toxin. We want this out, and so it starts

606
00:30:56.200 --> 00:30:59.839
to purge the alcohol and your blood alcohol levels start

607
00:30:59.880 --> 00:31:04.079
to fall, and you feel all of the associated emotions

608
00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:10.039
with your blood alcohol content falling, which are uneasy, anxious, tired,

609
00:31:10.279 --> 00:31:14.640
not comfortable in your own skin, paranoid, upset, sad, all

610
00:31:14.680 --> 00:31:17.240
of these feelings. And the kicker is that you feel

611
00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:20.680
those feelings for two to three hours, because that's how

612
00:31:20.759 --> 00:31:24.480
long one drink takes to leave your system, and so

613
00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:26.839
you just you know, and we don't realize this because

614
00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:29.480
we reach for another drink eighteen to twenty minutes later,

615
00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:31.240
we have a little bit more of a pick me up,

616
00:31:31.480 --> 00:31:33.759
and then eventually we get ourselves drunk. And most of

617
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:36.720
that really nasty time happens when we're asleep. But anybody

618
00:31:36.759 --> 00:31:38.880
who's woken up at three in the morning knows that

619
00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:40.880
it does not all happen when you're asleep, and you

620
00:31:40.960 --> 00:31:43.839
know that you wake up the next morning still feeling

621
00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:48.720
your blood alcohol content, you know, lowering, and those quite

622
00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:52.559
nasty feelings of purging the alcohol from your system. And

623
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:54.680
so you have to almost look at a twenty four

624
00:31:54.680 --> 00:31:57.519
hour day and say, okay, if I have six drinks,

625
00:31:57.559 --> 00:31:59.519
and let's say I average, because it does it does

626
00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:02.119
less and drink. If people measure that first drink, it's

627
00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:05.359
eighteen to twenty four minutes, That next drink is I

628
00:32:05.400 --> 00:32:08.200
think it was like fifteen to nineteen minutes, the next

629
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:11.240
one was less, et cetera. So if you say, okay,

630
00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:14.319
let's give myself an average of fifteen minutes a drink,

631
00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:16.799
and I have six drinks, and then what is that

632
00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:20.000
an hour and a half maybe of nice feelings in

633
00:32:20.039 --> 00:32:24.079
my twenty four hours, Like how many hours of worrying

634
00:32:24.119 --> 00:32:28.079
about my drinking, regretting my drinking, feeling hungover, having a hangover,

635
00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:31.680
being you know, mentally obsessed with drinking or not drinking,

636
00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:34.359
Like what is the real cost here? What is the

637
00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:37.279
real trade? And those are things you can start to

638
00:32:37.319 --> 00:32:40.759
explore when you approach it with curiosity, without judging yourself

639
00:32:40.759 --> 00:32:41.519
for your behavior.

640
00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:45.400
Anie, Most people, like you said, you know, start to

641
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:48.119
do this thing where they put rules around drinking and

642
00:32:48.160 --> 00:32:49.839
I set a boundary, or they start to limit the

643
00:32:49.880 --> 00:32:51.920
number of drinks cell have, and it takes up all

644
00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:55.160
of this mental space. And then even when people actually

645
00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:59.000
stop drinking, and even if they decide that's it, I

646
00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:01.279
don't want to do this anymore. I understand it's really

647
00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:05.640
bad for me. Many people take a long long time

648
00:33:06.119 --> 00:33:11.920
before they actually completely make make like a lasting change.

649
00:33:12.440 --> 00:33:15.119
And I think this is the thing that where people

650
00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:18.480
come unstuck as well, because they they feel like such

651
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:20.880
a failure. There is so much of that shame and

652
00:33:20.920 --> 00:33:26.279
self judgment. How long did it take you to eventually quit?

653
00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:28.039
And I guess from the research that you've done in

654
00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:30.000
the thousands of people you've talked to, like what is

655
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:32.039
there an average? Like how long does it take people

656
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:33.920
to make that change stick?

657
00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:39.119
So it really truly depends on the approach. And I

658
00:33:39.160 --> 00:33:42.680
think that there's let me explain this in a different way,

659
00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:45.039
because you could look at my own journey in two

660
00:33:45.079 --> 00:33:48.359
different ways. So before I sort of had my moment of,

661
00:33:49.240 --> 00:33:51.880
you know, asking myself a different question coming back from

662
00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:57.319
Heathrow Airport, I five or six years of struggling, were

663
00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:00.519
trying to drink less, right, and beating myself up about it.

664
00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:05.240
After that, once I did the research, change was almost instantaneous.

665
00:34:05.799 --> 00:34:08.960
And so it's fascinating because I have people who will

666
00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:11.920
read my book and they will, you know, two days later,

667
00:34:12.039 --> 00:34:13.480
never have a drink again. I have people who go

668
00:34:13.559 --> 00:34:16.519
through the alcohol experiment, always free, by the way, and

669
00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:20.840
they will stop drinking after thirty days, no problem. And

670
00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:24.159
so I really started asking myself the same question and say, okay, well,

671
00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:28.119
what is it that makes this successful? When gosh, I

672
00:34:28.159 --> 00:34:30.239
struggled for so many years, and by the way, I

673
00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:32.360
was in anywhere near getting out of my struggle. It

674
00:34:32.360 --> 00:34:34.960
wasn't as if change was imminent or on the horizon, right,

675
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:38.800
And so what I've realized is that we look at

676
00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:43.079
behavior change kind of across the board as I want

677
00:34:43.079 --> 00:34:45.840
to change my behavior, so I'm going to try to

678
00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:48.920
change my behavior, and I know that sounds logical. Okay,

679
00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:51.440
So I want to start running, So tomorrow I'm going

680
00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:52.920
to put on my running shoes and I'm going to

681
00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:55.920
go out and start running. And the reality is that

682
00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:59.719
all of the latest neuroscience shows that behavior change it

683
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:02.159
doesn't come about because we've done it for twenty one

684
00:35:02.199 --> 00:35:05.519
days or sixty days or ninety days. Those things are correlated,

685
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:08.599
but they're not causal. It actually comes about because of

686
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:12.800
how we feel about the new behavior. And if you

687
00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:16.880
feel like I did, that alcohol was absolutely the glue

688
00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:18.880
holding my whole life together, and my life would be

689
00:35:19.639 --> 00:35:22.719
completely miserable if I didn't drink, and I was trying

690
00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:25.320
not to drink it, there was probably no point in

691
00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:27.360
time where that behavior change was going to come easily

692
00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:32.079
or quickly. But what I realized is that behavior change

693
00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:35.719
really takes three things. It takes changing the behavior, but

694
00:35:35.800 --> 00:35:40.159
it also takes learning something new to feel something new.

695
00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:42.920
And so what I do in all my work is

696
00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:46.039
it's just completely packed full of knowledge, just like what

697
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:48.599
I shared with you about the blood alcohol content, because

698
00:35:48.639 --> 00:35:51.760
I promise you now that you know that you feel

699
00:35:51.800 --> 00:35:53.920
a little bit different about that glass of wine. There's

700
00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:57.559
nothing you can do to feel exactly the same about you.

701
00:35:57.719 --> 00:35:59.559
There's nothing you can do to unlearn what you just

702
00:35:59.639 --> 00:36:03.039
learned about the unfair trade right, and so you feel

703
00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:05.599
differently about it, and enough of those pieces of knowledge

704
00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:09.559
that are all based in science, you actually feel differently

705
00:36:10.119 --> 00:36:12.480
about picking up a drink. And that's where I was at.

706
00:36:12.519 --> 00:36:15.719
And so once I felt like I wanted to drink.

707
00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:18.239
And I know it's so hard to conceptualize when you

708
00:36:18.320 --> 00:36:21.280
are deep in the place of feeling like alcohol is

709
00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:23.719
your only friend, or alcohol is the key to loneliness

710
00:36:23.719 --> 00:36:26.159
and the key to networking or having a good time

711
00:36:26.239 --> 00:36:31.760
or destressing. But you can learn enough information to where

712
00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:35.199
you feel. For me, I felt about picking up a

713
00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:37.400
glass of wine like I felt about if I would

714
00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:40.239
drink a glass of motor oil. There was no benefit.

715
00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:44.320
And so the truth is without desire, there's no temptation.

716
00:36:44.920 --> 00:36:48.039
You do not desire something you do not believe provides

717
00:36:48.039 --> 00:36:51.000
a benefit. And so if you can actually reverse the

718
00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:53.440
order of change, so instead of just trying to change

719
00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:57.679
your behavior, you pack your front load all of this

720
00:36:57.760 --> 00:37:01.800
new knowledge, which inevitably knowledge changes your emotion. Then when

721
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:05.039
you feel something new, change can happen on a dime.

722
00:37:05.159 --> 00:37:07.960
It can happen very quickly. The average time that somebody

723
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:12.159
takes to change, you know, in the alcohol experiment, really

724
00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:14.559
is in thirty days. You know, drinking is reduced by

725
00:37:14.559 --> 00:37:18.559
sixty five percent. And if you wanted to, if people

726
00:37:18.599 --> 00:37:20.440
are really stuck and they actually work with us on

727
00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:24.360
a deeper level, it's within the first ninety days that

728
00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:26.639
people change and then they you know, the program is

729
00:37:26.679 --> 00:37:28.760
a year because then there's all of this work you

730
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:30.599
need to do to actually build a life you don't

731
00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:32.599
want to escape from in the first place. It's a

732
00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:35.840
whole layer after you change your behavior to like, okay,

733
00:37:35.880 --> 00:37:38.559
why you know, am I really peaceful? And that's not

734
00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:41.440
true for everybody. Some people are not drinking to self medicate,

735
00:37:41.480 --> 00:37:43.320
But if you are drinking to self medicate, there's work

736
00:37:43.360 --> 00:37:45.880
to be done there. But the change can happen really

737
00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:48.039
quickly when it's with the right method.

738
00:37:48.119 --> 00:37:52.280
I would say, yeah, I think that is gold right there.

739
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:57.599
That is so key. You don't desire something that you

740
00:37:57.920 --> 00:38:01.440
don't desire. It's not. It's not challenging to not do

741
00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:04.400
something you literally don't want to do because you've changed

742
00:38:04.440 --> 00:38:06.960
the whole way that you see it. Think about the

743
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:09.480
way you see it. I say the same thing and

744
00:38:09.519 --> 00:38:11.920
know it's different. But I've used this example before. I

745
00:38:11.960 --> 00:38:13.519
was vegan for a while there, and I still feel

746
00:38:13.559 --> 00:38:15.599
like guilt. But I'm not a vegan anymore. But I

747
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:19.000
I was vegan there for a while. It was you know,

748
00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:20.599
you see people, Oh, I couldn't give up cheese or

749
00:38:20.599 --> 00:38:22.480
I couldn't give up this. As soon as I fundamentally

750
00:38:22.519 --> 00:38:24.360
changed the way I saw that food and I knew

751
00:38:24.360 --> 00:38:26.119
the suffering that was involved in that, like I had

752
00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:30.360
no desire to consume it anymore. You change the way

753
00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:33.039
you see it, the meaning that you give it, and

754
00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:38.400
it's not hard. It's not hard. Annie. I just mentioned

755
00:38:38.440 --> 00:38:42.239
before that I haven't drunk alcohol for about a year

756
00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:43.519
and a half. I think today I worked out that

757
00:38:43.559 --> 00:38:47.159
I think today is actually literally eighteen months. But eighteen

758
00:38:47.199 --> 00:38:48.880
months ago I stopped drinking, and a few months ago

759
00:38:48.920 --> 00:38:51.960
we moved house and we sold a house. We bought

760
00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:53.880
a house. My parents sold a house. They bought their house.

761
00:38:54.079 --> 00:38:55.760
When you buy a house of sell a house by

762
00:38:55.760 --> 00:38:57.920
the way, Like everybody just gives you bottles of champagne,

763
00:38:57.960 --> 00:39:00.000
like it's that you get the big basket. It's always

764
00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:01.920
a bottle of champagne. That's another thing, the people who

765
00:39:01.960 --> 00:39:03.960
make the gift baskets. Can you please start making some

766
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:06.960
alcohol free gift baskets for those of us who are

767
00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:09.280
not interested in the champagne. But I said, oh look,

768
00:39:09.320 --> 00:39:11.800
I'll have a glass of champagne. You know, like I

769
00:39:11.840 --> 00:39:13.880
hadn't had a drink for over a year. I had

770
00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:16.800
never said I will never drink again. And I tasted

771
00:39:16.800 --> 00:39:21.239
the champagne and it actually tasted off to me. It

772
00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:25.840
tasted this is really expensive, nice champagne. It tasted gross.

773
00:39:26.360 --> 00:39:29.320
And I finished the glass. And I haven't had another

774
00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:32.559
drink since since. And I still sometimes think, oh, well,

775
00:39:32.599 --> 00:39:34.320
I could, like if it was a special occasion, maybe

776
00:39:34.360 --> 00:39:36.400
I would have a drink. But it actually has no

777
00:39:36.559 --> 00:39:40.920
appeal to me anymore. You put yourself in a situation.

778
00:39:41.119 --> 00:39:43.079
I know, I read this a couple of months after

779
00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:46.599
you quit drinking for good. You actually drank deliberately. Can

780
00:39:46.639 --> 00:39:47.679
you tell us about that?

781
00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:51.320
Yeah? So, And first of all, you know on that

782
00:39:51.559 --> 00:39:53.920
it's really interesting because let's just just back up for

783
00:39:53.920 --> 00:39:57.280
a second and pein a picture of two different scenarios. Right.

784
00:39:58.199 --> 00:40:01.639
One scenario is you're free. You don't really see it

785
00:40:01.639 --> 00:40:03.719
provides a benefit. You have a glass of champagne, it

786
00:40:03.719 --> 00:40:05.400
doesn't taste good, and you're going to like, yeah, maybe

787
00:40:05.400 --> 00:40:07.360
I'll have another one if it's a special occasion, but

788
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:11.719
I don't know, I'm not really feeling it. Alternate scenario,

789
00:40:13.039 --> 00:40:16.679
your entire mode of changing has beaten into your head

790
00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:20.079
that you can never again have a single glass or

791
00:40:20.119 --> 00:40:23.199
sip in safety. If you do, all bets are off.

792
00:40:23.239 --> 00:40:25.920
You're certainly on your way to prison, jail, or death.

793
00:40:26.440 --> 00:40:30.519
And it is the most tragic thing. You will lose

794
00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:34.440
all credibility in any sort of time that you've gained.

795
00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:39.039
And you might as well just drink five bottles, because man,

796
00:40:39.079 --> 00:40:43.280
you are screwed, Like, how likely are you to keep

797
00:40:43.360 --> 00:40:47.440
drinking and then, by the way, abandon the very thing

798
00:40:47.480 --> 00:40:50.880
that's helped you get this far. So I just want

799
00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:53.079
to highlight that I don't think that it is ever

800
00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:56.079
the behavior that's the problem. I think it's what we

801
00:40:56.199 --> 00:40:59.000
make it mean and when we make it mean. Man,

802
00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:01.159
if I have one glass of wine, that means all

803
00:41:01.239 --> 00:41:03.199
of the time all of those eighteen months are for

804
00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:06.239
not I've totally let myself down. I've let my whole

805
00:41:06.400 --> 00:41:10.719
community down. I've you know, become this person who is untrustable.

806
00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:13.960
Like all of that stuff can create such a different

807
00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:16.320
experience there, which, by the way, is going to make

808
00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:18.960
you drink more. Whereas if you make it mean like yeah,

809
00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:21.760
so I wanted a glass of champagne, fine, who cares?

810
00:41:21.800 --> 00:41:23.199
Like really, who cares?

811
00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:23.519
Right?

812
00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:26.079
And then that meaning is so different. So anyway, that's

813
00:41:26.199 --> 00:41:28.559
very true. That was totally a tangent, and I forget

814
00:41:28.599 --> 00:41:29.719
your original question.

815
00:41:31.480 --> 00:41:33.199
No, but it's a really good point. And I would

816
00:41:33.199 --> 00:41:35.119
also actually add on that we are off on a tangent.

817
00:41:35.159 --> 00:41:37.920
But had I done that after thirty days or sixty days,

818
00:41:37.960 --> 00:41:39.679
if not drinking, had a glass of champagne, I can

819
00:41:39.679 --> 00:41:41.280
guarantee you I would have had a glass of champagne

820
00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:42.519
the next day and the next day and the next day.

821
00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:45.039
Because it took a lot longer. It took over a

822
00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:47.480
year before I was at a point and I knew

823
00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:50.199
that in myself, before I could comfortably have a glass

824
00:41:50.199 --> 00:41:53.360
of champagne and not feel that fear that oh I'm

825
00:41:53.360 --> 00:41:55.559
going to be straight back down that on that drinking

826
00:41:55.639 --> 00:42:00.920
cycle again. My question was, are you you deliberately put

827
00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:03.880
yourself in a situation? Oh, yes, right, and you've had

828
00:42:03.960 --> 00:42:06.480
you drink, not just one glass.

829
00:42:06.360 --> 00:42:09.559
No no, no, I intentionally got drunk. I actually set

830
00:42:09.639 --> 00:42:14.360
up I set up my phone on a little tripod,

831
00:42:14.440 --> 00:42:17.960
and I filmed myself getting drunk. Because what had happened

832
00:42:18.199 --> 00:42:19.760
was it was about three or four months after I

833
00:42:19.760 --> 00:42:22.679
stopped drinking, and Saint Patrick's Day, for whatever reason, is

834
00:42:22.679 --> 00:42:24.039
a big deal in the US, and it's a big

835
00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:26.039
drinking day. So we went over to a friend's house

836
00:42:26.559 --> 00:42:29.400
and we're all out for dinner, and they had all

837
00:42:29.480 --> 00:42:32.679
their green beer and whatnot, and I, for the first time,

838
00:42:33.199 --> 00:42:36.320
was feeling quite left out and feeling like, huh, maybe

839
00:42:36.320 --> 00:42:37.800
I made too big of a deal of this, Like

840
00:42:37.880 --> 00:42:40.360
maybe it's maybe it's not that big of a deal. Maybe

841
00:42:41.039 --> 00:42:43.920
I was wrong, you know, maybe drinking is fine, Like

842
00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:46.840
why did I even stop? And so I said, you

843
00:42:46.840 --> 00:42:49.639
know what, before, I just pour myself this drink in

844
00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:52.199
this situation, because I knew enough to know that if

845
00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:54.480
I was to have another drink in a really happy,

846
00:42:54.599 --> 00:42:57.800
joyful situation, my mind would just create all the associations

847
00:42:57.800 --> 00:43:00.760
that already existed like, oh, alcohol is important and for fun, Oh,

848
00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:02.920
alcohol is the key to having a good time in

849
00:43:02.960 --> 00:43:05.119
this holiday. And so I said, I'm not going to

850
00:43:05.199 --> 00:43:06.320
do that. But what I am going to do is

851
00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:08.079
I'm going to go home. I'm gonna buy myself two

852
00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:10.760
bottles of wine and I'm actually just going to get

853
00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:14.360
drunk where there is no external thing that can get

854
00:43:14.400 --> 00:43:17.440
confused with the drinking. I just want to know what

855
00:43:17.480 --> 00:43:20.000
it feels like to get drunk, What does that feel like?

856
00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:22.280
How does that make me feel? You know, because so

857
00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:26.519
often we create these associations where we are drinking at

858
00:43:26.559 --> 00:43:30.000
some of the most naturally enjoyable points in our life.

859
00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:34.840
Right We're drinking at the weddings or the vacations or

860
00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:37.679
you know, all of these really beautiful experiences, and so

861
00:43:37.880 --> 00:43:40.559
our brains get super confused and they say, oh, those

862
00:43:40.599 --> 00:43:43.480
two things they go together. And actually the reason that

863
00:43:43.480 --> 00:43:46.000
that's fun is the drinking. But you know, nobody ever

864
00:43:46.039 --> 00:43:48.159
came home from a soccer match and said, oh, my gosh,

865
00:43:48.199 --> 00:43:50.480
that beer, you know, that was the best beer, Like, no,

866
00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:53.599
we're talking about the goal and how the you know,

867
00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:57.719
experience was so yes, I locked myself in my room.

868
00:43:58.280 --> 00:44:02.400
I proceeded to get very drunk on camera, and it

869
00:44:02.480 --> 00:44:04.440
just sealed the deal for me. I couldn't even watch

870
00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:06.719
the video for about four years. I now have edited

871
00:44:06.760 --> 00:44:09.639
down probably the four hours of footage into kind of

872
00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:12.440
a fifteen minute video that's available on the twenty eighth

873
00:44:12.519 --> 00:44:17.320
day of the alcohol experiment. But it was it's humiliating.

874
00:44:17.360 --> 00:44:20.239
I mean it was. It was in the moment in

875
00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:22.559
the next day, like I was just so certain there

876
00:44:22.559 --> 00:44:24.719
was nothing there for me. The only thing that really

877
00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:27.639
happened was I felt like the room got a bit fuzzy,

878
00:44:27.800 --> 00:44:31.079
everything got a bit softer. I felt really dizzy, and

879
00:44:31.119 --> 00:44:35.239
then I proceeded to just turn into like you could

880
00:44:35.239 --> 00:44:37.440
see the light going out of my eyes. You could see,

881
00:44:37.639 --> 00:44:41.199
you know, I'm generally can put string together words, all right.

882
00:44:41.199 --> 00:44:43.960
I couldn't do that anymore, you know, I thought I

883
00:44:44.039 --> 00:44:46.480
was funny. I'd totally lost my sense of humor. It was.

884
00:44:46.760 --> 00:44:49.159
It was really painful. I mean, you can see if

885
00:44:49.199 --> 00:44:51.159
you're sober and you watch somebody else get drunk, you

886
00:44:51.159 --> 00:44:54.519
can see exactly what I mean. But how alcohol changes

887
00:44:54.559 --> 00:44:57.559
the human being, and that the human becomes less and

888
00:44:57.639 --> 00:45:00.639
less present. And it's funny because we think that alcohol

889
00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:03.760
actually makes us more of ourselves, but it doesn't. It

890
00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:06.400
actually turns off the part of our brain that is

891
00:45:06.440 --> 00:45:10.360
the most human and allows us to have more impulses

892
00:45:10.360 --> 00:45:12.960
and more animalistic impulses, allowing the part of our brain

893
00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:15.960
that's least human to take over. And so it feels like, oh,

894
00:45:16.039 --> 00:45:19.360
my inhibitions are down. That must be how I really am. No, no, no,

895
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:22.760
that's how you really are, with the prefrontal cortex, with

896
00:45:22.800 --> 00:45:26.440
the very human part of your brain where you make

897
00:45:26.599 --> 00:45:30.039
the good decisions turned off. And so yeah, for me,

898
00:45:30.119 --> 00:45:33.559
that was that. I every time I was tempted to

899
00:45:33.599 --> 00:45:36.039
have a drink any moment after that, all I think

900
00:45:36.079 --> 00:45:39.679
about was, well, that's how it makes me feel. That's

901
00:45:39.719 --> 00:45:39.920
a no.

902
00:45:41.039 --> 00:45:44.079
Yeah. And you made a really good point there about

903
00:45:44.119 --> 00:45:46.840
just these associations we have, and we have a most

904
00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:50.039
of us have a whole adult lifetime of alcohol and

905
00:45:50.079 --> 00:45:53.760
weddings alcohol and Friday night alcohol and relaxing alcohol. So

906
00:45:53.840 --> 00:45:56.760
it just becomes alcohol and everything. And I think too,

907
00:45:57.079 --> 00:46:00.199
you know, part of the process that most people go through,

908
00:46:00.239 --> 00:46:02.960
certainly the one that I went through, is experiencing some

909
00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:06.079
of those occasions without alcohol and again just being curious

910
00:46:06.719 --> 00:46:11.599
and realizing that it's just as fun and you can

911
00:46:11.639 --> 00:46:14.559
be just as much. You and Bonus remember it all

912
00:46:14.599 --> 00:46:18.599
the next day and Bonus not wake up and horrified

913
00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:21.760
wondering if that thing that you said was maybe offensive

914
00:46:21.840 --> 00:46:24.400
or rude. And most of the time, I mean, I

915
00:46:24.440 --> 00:46:27.119
think in my case, I was never offensive. I didn't.

916
00:46:27.280 --> 00:46:28.960
But that's what our brain does to us. It puts

917
00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:31.320
us in the state of, oh my god, and then

918
00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:35.280
we were in this anxiety kind of shame spiral of

919
00:46:35.360 --> 00:46:37.440
what did I do? And you can still have the

920
00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:40.440
fun without any of those negative consequences if you just

921
00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:43.840
give yourself the chance. So the thirty Day Alcohol Experiment

922
00:46:43.880 --> 00:46:47.719
is available at any time for people to jump on

923
00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:48.400
for free.

924
00:46:48.679 --> 00:46:51.800
Yes, so it's always available at alcohol experiment dot com

925
00:46:51.840 --> 00:46:53.920
and you just go in and you choose your own

926
00:46:53.960 --> 00:46:57.639
start date and yeah, just go for it. For thirty days.

927
00:46:57.679 --> 00:47:00.639
Every day is a video and email and it's really information.

928
00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:03.239
So that knowledge that changes your emotion, that is what

929
00:47:03.280 --> 00:47:04.159
it's packed full of.

930
00:47:04.639 --> 00:47:08.039
Yeah, one other thing just before you go, Annie, So,

931
00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:10.800
one thing that people have said to me when they've

932
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:13.239
tried to make changes to the way they drink is

933
00:47:13.280 --> 00:47:16.360
I feel so boring. I feel like I feel like

934
00:47:16.440 --> 00:47:19.199
I'm boring. I feel like life's boring. I feel like

935
00:47:19.239 --> 00:47:24.119
there's this flatness to life when I don't drink, and

936
00:47:24.159 --> 00:47:26.880
I would. I think that's a common experience, and I would.

937
00:47:26.920 --> 00:47:29.400
I know that you understand why that happens, and I

938
00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:31.280
was wondering if you could maybe just explain that.

939
00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:35.039
Yeah. Absolutely, And I actually have a video that I

940
00:47:35.079 --> 00:47:38.480
did on this. If you search on YouTube this Naked

941
00:47:38.519 --> 00:47:42.320
Mind channel for boredom, it will pop up for you.

942
00:47:42.800 --> 00:47:45.320
And I go deep into this because it's such an

943
00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:50.199
important thing in our experience, and the reality is that

944
00:47:51.320 --> 00:47:55.199
the boredom can be the very thing that we need

945
00:47:55.679 --> 00:47:58.760
to really realize where we are and get to know

946
00:47:59.079 --> 00:48:02.159
ourselves better. Actually opens up the space. In fact, the

947
00:48:02.239 --> 00:48:06.320
research says that nothing great or beautiful or impactful would

948
00:48:06.360 --> 00:48:10.199
ever have been created without human boredom, and all creativity

949
00:48:10.599 --> 00:48:12.760
happens on the other side of boredom. And if we're

950
00:48:12.840 --> 00:48:16.320
not allowing our minds to rest in that way, that

951
00:48:16.840 --> 00:48:19.280
you know, we're really doing ourselves a disservice. And so

952
00:48:19.360 --> 00:48:21.719
if we're always either turning off our thoughts with something

953
00:48:21.719 --> 00:48:23.960
like alcohol or social media or whatever the case is,

954
00:48:24.559 --> 00:48:28.679
we're actually disallowing the parts of ourselves. That allows you know,

955
00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:32.559
us to evolve and create all of the beautiful, incredible things,

956
00:48:32.559 --> 00:48:35.000
from art to technology to science, all of the things

957
00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:39.360
comes from that feeling of boredom. And so practically, when

958
00:48:39.440 --> 00:48:42.400
I feel that feeling, I just really like to go

959
00:48:42.440 --> 00:48:45.440
into the observer mood and be like, oh, interesting, this

960
00:48:45.559 --> 00:48:48.159
is how my brain reacts having nothing to do. Let's

961
00:48:48.199 --> 00:48:50.960
hear it chatter about that. Oh, it feels really uncomfortable

962
00:48:51.000 --> 00:48:53.440
in my body. That's interesting, you know, And especially when

963
00:48:53.480 --> 00:48:56.599
I was first trying to meditate, you know, sitting there

964
00:48:56.639 --> 00:49:00.119
and just watching myself be uncomfortable and actually find and

965
00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:04.199
entertainment in the watching of the discomfort. Yeah, if that

966
00:49:04.280 --> 00:49:07.159
makes sense, but it allows you to sort of break

967
00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:10.400
through that, and on the other side of that you

968
00:49:10.480 --> 00:49:13.480
discover this just depth and richness of life, where every

969
00:49:13.559 --> 00:49:17.400
moment has so much texture and quality that nothing is

970
00:49:17.480 --> 00:49:20.760
ever boring. Again, Like I can't even imagine using that word.

971
00:49:20.800 --> 00:49:23.920
There's not There's not been a moment in my existence

972
00:49:24.199 --> 00:49:27.920
for probably five years, and I stopped drinking over seven

973
00:49:27.960 --> 00:49:31.960
years ago where I would have considered myself bored. Because

974
00:49:32.039 --> 00:49:37.119
when you break through that, yeah, it's like everything is

975
00:49:37.159 --> 00:49:41.039
fascinating I know that sounds weird, but it's really the truth.

976
00:49:41.320 --> 00:49:43.679
It is true, it is true, and I think you know,

977
00:49:44.320 --> 00:49:46.880
like you said before, sometimes after you've quit the alcohol,

978
00:49:46.960 --> 00:49:48.519
then you realize all of the things that you were

979
00:49:48.599 --> 00:49:52.880
drinking to avoid, and so there is obviously, possibly for

980
00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:55.320
some people more work to be done there, but you

981
00:49:55.440 --> 00:50:00.440
cannot make that realistic appraisal and make any kind of

982
00:50:00.840 --> 00:50:05.679
change fundamentally to your life. And unless you remove the alcohol,

983
00:50:05.719 --> 00:50:08.599
that's kind of masking. Yeah, all of the problems.

984
00:50:08.760 --> 00:50:09.599
So true.

985
00:50:09.960 --> 00:50:14.360
Annie, I'm so grateful for your time. Everybody's going to

986
00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:16.960
be rushing to find you and connect with you. Where

987
00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:20.639
is the easiest place to find all of your resources

988
00:50:20.639 --> 00:50:21.800
and everything that you have available?

989
00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:24.599
Awesome? The best place is This Sneaked Mind dot com.

990
00:50:24.639 --> 00:50:26.599
And then if you are curious about the thirty day Break,

991
00:50:26.639 --> 00:50:29.400
that is again at Alcohol Experiment dot com.

992
00:50:29.440 --> 00:50:32.280
Perfect. Thank you, Annie, it's been such a pleasure.

993
00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:34.239
Well, thank you, thank you for having me.

994
00:50:38.199 --> 00:50:42.280
Annie's books are called This Naked Mind and The Alcohol Experiment,

995
00:50:42.360 --> 00:50:45.039
and they are available at all good bookstores now. You

996
00:50:45.079 --> 00:50:47.280
can find the links to order those in the show notes.

997
00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:50.719
Even before I personally stopped drinking, I had referred many

998
00:50:50.760 --> 00:50:54.519
people to Annie's work based purely on word of mouth recommendations.

999
00:50:54.920 --> 00:50:58.440
I personally know several people who credit Annie's books and

1000
00:50:58.480 --> 00:51:02.239
her alcohol experiment with fundamentally shifting the way they think

1001
00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:06.280
about drinking and dramatically reducing their alcohol intake or helping

1002
00:51:06.320 --> 00:51:09.360
them to stop drinking altogether. So if you or someone

1003
00:51:09.440 --> 00:51:11.320
you know is looking to make a change in your

1004
00:51:11.320 --> 00:51:14.400
relationship with alcohol, I hope that this has inspired you

1005
00:51:14.480 --> 00:51:17.920
to check out Annie's work. Thank you so much for listening,

1006
00:51:17.960 --> 00:51:20.119
and as always, I look forward to catching you on

1007
00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:21.880
the next episode of Crapy to Haby

1008
00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:28.679
Listener