July 18, 2021

How to Live Better with Less with The Minimalists

How to Live Better with Less with The Minimalists
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How to Live Better with Less with The Minimalists
How to Live Better with Less with The Minimalists
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Season 6 Mindfulness & Acceptance

In this episode, Cass talks with Josh Fields Millburn and Ryan Nicodemus aka “The Minimalists” about the unexpected joy and meaning that becomes available to you when you re-evaluate all of your relationships, starting with your relationship with ‘stuff’. They have two documentaries currently streaming on Netflix and several best-selling books including their most recent, “Love People Use Things” which is available now in all bookstores. Josh and Ryan also have loads of free resources on their website.To find out more about Josh & Ryan:www.theminimalists.com
Buy their book Love People Use Things here: https://tinyurl.com/3pfcwyuz
Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
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Join the free 7-day Happiness Challenge:www.cassdunn.com/happiness

Connect with Cass:

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Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
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Are you a coach, therapist, service provider or solopreneur struggling with self-doubt and imposter syndrome? I'd love to talk to you! (for market research purposes only!)

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Transcript
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A listener production.

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This is Crappita Happy and I am your host cast done.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist and mindfulness meditation teacher

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and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In

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this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent

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people who are experts in their field and who have

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something of value to share that will help you feel

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less crappy and more happy. Joshua Fields Milburn and Ryan

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Nicodemus are the Minimalists, best friends since primary school. They

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both discovered in their late twenties that their successful careers,

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high incomes, and lavish lifestyles were not making them any happier,

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In fact, quite the opposite. First, josh and later Ryan

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embarked on an endeavor to declutter their lives and have

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now spent the last decade or more sharing the message

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of how to live a more meaningful life within less

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through their website are Theminimalists dot Com, their books, their podcast,

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and two Netflix documentaries. They've shared their message with an

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audience of over twenty million people. To be clear, this

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is much more than a conversation about decluttering. This is

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about re examining our lives, our relationships and getting honest

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about what we value so that we can live a

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life that is more authentic and that allows space for

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what is truly important. Here's my conversation with the Minimalists,

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Ryan and Joshua. Thank you so much for being on

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the Crappy a Happy Podcast.

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Thanks for having us. We're excited to be here.

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Thank you so much.

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You guys are the Minimalists. You've been the Minimalists for

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over a decade. Now, you've got two Netflix documentaries, a

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series of books, a podcast. You've reached over twenty million

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people with your message. Congratulations on that. I would like

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to start by going back to the beginning and asking

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how you first got onto this idea of minimal and

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what really struck you about this as being a good

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idea in the first place.

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I guess we have to start at the beginning, right.

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We were both born in nineteen eighty one, so we're

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forty years old this year, and we grew up really

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poor in Dayton, Ohio in the States, and you know,

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sort of almost the cliche version of poverty and crappy, right,

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it's poverty, it's government assistance, it's not having much money,

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but there's also alcohol, abuse, drug abuse in the home,

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physical violence in our homes as well. And Ryan and

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I were pretty discontented growing up, and we thought the

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reason we were so discontented is our parents didn't have

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any money, right, And so of course, when I turned eighteen,

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I went out and I got a corporate job. By

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the way, Ryan and I have known each other since

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we were fat little fifth graders, and so I turned eighteen,

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I went out and got a corporate sales job, and

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spent the next dozen years climbing the corporate ladder, and

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by my late twenties, by age thirty, I said, sort

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of achieved everything I ever wanted. The six figure salary,

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the luxury cars, the big suburban house with more toilets

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than people. I really had all the stuff to fill

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every corner of my consumer driven life. I was living

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the American dream, which has permeated your borders as well, right, Yeah,

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and so it's permeated the borders, Yeah, pretty much every

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country in the world. There's one hundred and ninety three

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countries in the world, and probably one hundred and ninety

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of them are trying to live the American dream. And

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the problem was it was actually a nightmare. I was

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working seventy eighty hours a week. I was stressed out,

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I was discontented, and I was buying a lot of

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things to pacify myself. And Ryan was doing the same thing.

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In fact, we worked at the same corporation together. He

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saw that I was making good money in my twenties

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and I thought, well, this is sure to make me happy.

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And so by the time I was nineteen, I was

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making fifty thousand dollars a year. But I was like, well,

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wait a minut that's not making me happy. Maybe I

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need to adjust for inflation. Maybe it's seventy five thousand

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or one hundred thousand dollars, you know, six figures. That

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must be happiness, right. Well, the problem was, as I

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made more money, I spent even more money and racked

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up a ton of debt along the way. So I

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made really good money, but spent even better money. And

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that was a recipe for misery. And two events happened

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to me when I was in my late twenties. My

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mother died, my marriage and did both in the same month.

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And these two events forced me to look around and

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start to question what had become my life's focus. And

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I realized I was really focused on all of the

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wrong things. All of the so called success and achievement

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in our culture. What is that It's through the accumulation

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of trinkets, stuff, cars, clothes, walk in closets full of

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shoes and all of these things that are supposed to

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make me happy. But they weren't doing their job. They

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weren't filling the void that I had created. And so

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when those two events sort of happened back to back,

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it was like a one to two punch, same month, right.

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I looked around and I realized, like, oh, I need

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to simplify my life. That's where I stumbled across this

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thing called minimalism.

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Online.

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I found the whole community of people who were living

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more deliberately, and there were different people. Some people had kids.

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Leo Bibalta had six kids and he was a minimalist, right.

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And then you had a guy named Colin Wright who

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was a parapatetic, traveling minimalist and everything he owned fit

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in his backpack. And he had Courtney Carver and her

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daughter and the sort of minimalist family. And I realized, like, oh,

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wait a minute, there are all these different flavors of

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living with less. Maybe this is applicable to me as well,

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because I didn't aspire to be like any of those people,

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but I did aspire to find some of the maybe

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uncover some of the peace, tranquility, equanimity, freedom, that those

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people were experiencing. And then so I spent about eight

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months implify my life, got rid of about ninety percent

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of my material possessions. I don't know if you know this,

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but the average American household has about three hundred thousand

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items in it. Now, that would be all well and

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good if it was making us happier and more content

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and joyous, but it's often doing the opposite. It's making

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us compare ourselves to other people, which is of course

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the thief of joy. And so I realized that this competition,

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this comparison, this more and more more, was not working now.

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And so it wasn't about the pursuit of less. It

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was more about letting go subtract. Letting go isn't something

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you do. I learned that early on. Letting go is

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something you stop doing, right, You stop clinging to everything,

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every material thing. But it turns out that these material

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things in my life, they were just a physical manifestation

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of what was going on inside me. And so all

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this external clutter, the physical clutter, meant that I also

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had all this internal clutter, mental clutter, emotional clutter, of

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spiritual clutter, relational clutter, career clutter. But letting go of

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the stuff made room to start questioning everything in my life.

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But then people around me started noticing some profound changes

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in me. People at work started coming up to me

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and saying things like, Hey, what's going on with you? You

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seem less stressed. Hey, you seem so much calmer. And

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Ryan came to me one day and he said, why

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the hell are you so happy? And so I told

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him about this thing called minimalism. You know, I didn't

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jump up and say, look at me. I'm a minimalist

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and you should be a minimalist too. It wasn't about proselytizing.

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In fact, Ryan and I, even now, even with we

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have books and all this other stuff, we're not trying

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to convert anyone to minimalism. I don't want to convince

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you to become a minimalist, but I understand that if

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you are discontented by the status quo, then perhaps simplifying

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will make room for those more important questions.

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I don't think it's possible to really convert someone into minimalism.

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But you know what Josh and I try to do

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is just share a recipe that has worked for us

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to help us get out of that crappy situation. My

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situation was like Josh's, working sixty seventy, sometimes eighty hours

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a week, forsaking some of the most important aspects of

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my life, my health, my relationships, my creativity. I certainly

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wasn't contributing. I wasn't really growing any way. I was

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chasing a lot of ephemeral pleasures, whether it was a

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nicer car, or a nicer house, or a bigger paycheck

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to buy those things. Drugs and alcohol soon started to

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creep into my life. I was kind of in this tornado,

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and when I saw this change in Joshua, I just

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knew that I wanted to have something in my life

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that he had in his life, which was that tranquility.

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It was peace, It was a bit of a calm,

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a calm emotion that he was emitting. So when he

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told me about minimalism, what I heard was common sense.

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And you know, unfortunately these days common sense it's not

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too common, and I certainly wasn't.

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I was not.

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I did not have common sense myself. So I just

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saw some practical things that I thought I could apply

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to my life. So I got really excited. I'm like,

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oh wow, minimalism, like this sounds great. Man, All right, cool,

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I'm in. I'm a minimalist, all right. Like, now what

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do I do? I didn't know where to start. So

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Josh kind of explained to me his journey. But for me,

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I needed faster results. I couldn't spend seven or eight

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months decluttering my life. I needed faster results, something to

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really change my state, to change my perspective. So Josh

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and I we came up with this crazy idea called

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a packing party, where we decided to pack all my

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belongings as if I were moving, and then I would

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unpack only the items I needed over the next three weeks.

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So Josh came over and he literally helped me box

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up everything my clothes, my kitchen, where my TVs, my towels,

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my frame, photographs, some paintings, my toiletries, even my furniture.

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Like we literally pretended like I was moving.

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Look, I just want to interrupt that that's a huge

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thing today.

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Yeah it is, Well, you know, I'm like one of

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those people who I will always like dive in head

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first if I feel like that's what I have to

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do again to like change my state. There's like a

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Tony Robbins thing where he always talks about the best

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way to interrupt these these negative patterns that we have

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or these these impulses is to really change your state.

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So I saw an opportunity with this packing party to

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do just that, and it totally did. I mean, after

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those three weeks, I had eighty percent of my stuff

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still sitting in those boxes, just sitting there unaccessed. And

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that's really where the minimalists dot com started.

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It was. It was what that twenty one day packing

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party journey.

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It's really interesting to hear you both take such a

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different approach. I was when Joshua, when you say it

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took you eight months, I was like, oh, oh, thank God, Like,

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this is not something that we have to do in

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a weekend, you know, clear everything out of our house.

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So I guess different different approaches will suit different people

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when it comes to re examining, you know, the amount

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of clutter in our lives and how we might go

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about shadding.

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Some of that.

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That's What I really like about what Josh and I

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do is you know him and I. Yes, we're both minimalists.

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We live this lifestyle, but we have completely different approaches.

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We have completely different recipes. And our hope with our

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message with our book that's coming out, love People Use Things.

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Our hope is that people can see this recipe and

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they can start to tweeze out ingredients for themselves. So

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whether it's an eight month journey, whether it's a twenty

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one day packing party journey, which people in our book

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actually did, we got some people to do that packing

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party journey and tell us about it, and we wrote

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about it and love People Use Things.

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But then there's kind of the middle of the road approach.

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It's called the minimalism game, and basically Josh and I

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we both realize how boring decluttering can be, so we

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decided to make it fun with a little friendly competition. So,

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you know, the middle of the road approaches this. You

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find a friend or a family member someone else who

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wants to declutter, and then you both agree to start

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on the first day of the month, and you both

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get rid of one item, and then on the second

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day of the month, you get rid of two items,

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then on the third day of the month, three items,

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and then on the all right, so you probably get

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the point, so on and so forth. It starts out

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really really easy, Yeah, until you get to like, you know,

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day number nineteen and you're like, oh, man, tomorrow, I

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got to get rid of twenty things, and then the

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next day twenty one things.

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So it starts to build some momentum. Now, the person

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who goes the longest wins. You can bet something. I

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don't know, someone makes a dinner for the winner, or

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I don't know, the loser has to wear a silly hat.

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You can make it anything you want.

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But if both people make it to the end of

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the month, then both people win because they would have.

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Gotten rid of about five hundred items. It's a great start.

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I'm curious to know when you both, you know, hit

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upon this minimalist idea and you started to declutter, what

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was your initial emotional response?

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Was it freeing?

250
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Was there some angst and attachment? Like what was the

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the in the early days?

252
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How did it feel?

253
00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:21.600
Freeing is a complicated word, right, because and we even

254
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write about that in the book quite a bit. Yeah,

255
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I think that jettisoning your excess stuff can be freeing,

256
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and but it can also be exciting, and let's not

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confuse the two. Right, excitement is not freedom. But I

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also think letting go of the stuff on its own

259
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is not inherently meaningful, right, And I think unfortunately sometimes

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we can get a little confused there and think, well,

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buying the stuff didn't make me happy, and therefore, but

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you know what, getting rid of the stuff must make

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me happy, And then well, no, that's like trying to

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fill the void by emptying the void.

265
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The problem is the void all again.

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Either you've been lied to by advertisers, by marketers, by society,

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by culture, etc. Being told that you're inadequate, that you're

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not enough, that you're imperfect, right, And so yes, clearing

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the clutter it can be freeing, but not freeing in

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the sense that we traditionally think. Sometimes we think of freedom,

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what do we think doing whatever we want whenever we want.

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That's not freedom, that's tyranny.

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If I told my daughter eight year old daughter too,

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you can do whatever you want whenever you want. You

275
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just watch videos all day or play in traffic and

276
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eat brownies, right, and so that's not freedom. Real freedom

277
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involves a type of self restraint. And so when we're

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talking about minimalism, we're not talking about doing something that's

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going to make you happy. Doing less is not about

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00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:51.600
the doing, it's about the less. Maybe that's the way

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that I would put it, because I think we can

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get really caught up and simply the exercise without the

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under understanding. There's this great story in the book of

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this couple, Jason and Jennifer Kirkendall in the stuff chapter.

285
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You know, it's a relationship book, and so these seven

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different relationships. One of them is it starts with our

287
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relationship with stuff. You know, we're the minimalists, so it

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makes sense to start there. And Jason and Jeny they

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live in the Midwest and they sort of were living

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the American dream like me and Ryan. In fact, there

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are a lot of parallels between their story and hours.

292
00:15:25.720 --> 00:15:28.919
In fact, we've met dozens of hundreds, thousands of people

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who have a similar story whenever we go out on tour.

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And what was fascinating about them is they stumbled across

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this whole minimalism thing and they began letting go of

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the stuff. But really it was the letting go of

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the attachment that set them free because it is possible

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to just rent a dumpster and throw all your stuff

299
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in it and be utterly miserable because you didn't let

300
00:15:53.679 --> 00:15:58.120
go of the attachment. You didn't understand the attachment to

301
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the stuff. Because attachment, you know, this is what the

302
00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:03.279
Buddhists got, right, I mean, it's it's a fundamental tenet

303
00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:07.919
when when they talked about how attachment is suffering, right, well, yes,

304
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and we're getting dragged by that. It's by our stuff

305
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because we're clinging to everything. As I said earlier, letting

306
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go how something you do. It's something you stop doing.

307
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You stop clinging to the material possessions, You stop clinging

308
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to toxic relationships. You stop acting like busy is a

309
00:16:26.440 --> 00:16:29.159
good thing. Busy is what's making us miserable. It's the

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00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:32.919
worst four letter word in the English language. You stop

311
00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:38.279
posturing as if all the achievements make you you. If

312
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you let go of the thing but not the attachment,

313
00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:44.039
then you will still get dragged.

314
00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:45.519
Yeah.

315
00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:48.120
So let's talk about that feeling cast that I had

316
00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:52.399
when I when I first experienced my my decluttering, or

317
00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:56.679
that packing party, when I was sitting there in front

318
00:16:56.679 --> 00:17:00.919
of all my stuff in boxes, I felt this overwhelming

319
00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:03.720
feeling of guilt, and it was guilt from a lot

320
00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:04.400
of different ways.

321
00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:07.039
It was a waste of money. You know. I told

322
00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:09.680
myself that, man, if I worked.

323
00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:11.920
Really hard and made enough money, maybe I could retire

324
00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:14.440
at age fifty. Maybe I could retire in America, you know,

325
00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:16.640
at sixty five years old, or maybe sixty seven at

326
00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:18.559
this point. But I thought maybe I could retire, you know,

327
00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:21.480
about fifteen years early. But then when I looked at

328
00:17:21.519 --> 00:17:23.920
how I was spending my money, I was like, oh, like,

329
00:17:23.960 --> 00:17:26.160
I'm That's what I'm telling myself, but that's not what

330
00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:30.279
I'm doing at all. When I looked at my relationships

331
00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:33.680
with people, you know, I thought about the people that

332
00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:36.640
I was forsaking to work as much as I was

333
00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:38.920
working to pay for all this stuff that wasn't making

334
00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:39.519
me happy.

335
00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:41.000
And it made me think of my mom.

336
00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:44.200
I mean, my mom lived about thirty minutes away and

337
00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:49.720
I probably saw her four or five times a year birthdays, holidays,

338
00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:53.279
things like that. And it was interesting because I kind

339
00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:57.759
of had this this reckoning with what I thought my

340
00:17:57.880 --> 00:18:01.200
priorities were versus what they act actually were. Because if

341
00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:02.920
you would have asked me before that packing party, if

342
00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:05.559
you'd have been like, Hey, Ryan, what are your priorities.

343
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I would have been like, oh, well, it's my health,

344
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because you know, you can't live a good life unless

345
00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:11.960
you have health. It's my relationships. You gotta have good

346
00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:13.799
people in your life. And you know, I would have

347
00:18:13.880 --> 00:18:18.039
rambled off some of these really nice sounding values, these

348
00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:20.039
nice sounding priorities, but when I looked at what I

349
00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:23.920
was actually doing with my time, I wasn't focusing on

350
00:18:23.960 --> 00:18:26.319
those things at on. I kind of had this light

351
00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:29.319
bulb moment of oh, like, my priorities are not what

352
00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:32.319
I say they are, it's what I actually do. So

353
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there was a lot of guilt that I had to

354
00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:37.839
get over when I kind of had this reckoning, and

355
00:18:39.079 --> 00:18:40.799
it was worth it though.

356
00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:41.279
For sure.

357
00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:43.960
It really is a question of values, isn't it. I

358
00:18:43.960 --> 00:18:47.559
mean that's what you really outline in this newest book Love.

359
00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:50.880
People use things about examining all of the relationships. As

360
00:18:50.920 --> 00:18:53.960
you said in your Life, it starts with stuff, but

361
00:18:54.039 --> 00:18:59.680
it's really about being intentional in every area.

362
00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:00.000
Of your life.

363
00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:01.119
Yeah, you're right.

364
00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:03.680
We wanted to write a relationship book, like a traditional

365
00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:05.720
relationship book, and we kind of get there at the

366
00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:07.519
end of the book. You know, there's a it's my

367
00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:11.000
favorite chapter is Our Relationship with People. But what Ryan

368
00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:14.680
and I realized is that, oh, what what is the

369
00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:19.359
thing that was keeping us from thriving in our different relationships,

370
00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:24.400
be it intimate relationships, friendships, business relationships, whatever it was?

371
00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:27.960
What was what was adding to the discontent, to the misery.

372
00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:29.640
What was crappy about these things?

373
00:19:29.720 --> 00:19:29.839
Right?

374
00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:32.200
And it was, Oh, it was all of these other

375
00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:34.279
relationships that were sort of getting in the way of

376
00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:37.400
our relationships, our relationship with stuff. But then of course

377
00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:42.279
our relationship with the truth. We're constantly lying to ourselves,

378
00:19:42.279 --> 00:19:45.680
we're lying to others, We're creating these narratives that don't

379
00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:48.359
exist our relationship with ourself.

380
00:19:48.759 --> 00:19:48.920
Right.

381
00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:53.319
Self care is really popular in the sort of zeitgeist today.

382
00:19:53.799 --> 00:19:57.240
But self care is you know, we can set that

383
00:19:57.319 --> 00:20:00.680
aside and realize, like, what is my relationship with the

384
00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:05.880
person I've spend every hour with, whether I'm conscious or unconscious,

385
00:20:06.119 --> 00:20:09.480
I am still there. I'm with me all the time.

386
00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:13.319
And man, that is often a very tense relationship one.

387
00:20:13.319 --> 00:20:15.200
It's the most challenging one I think for a lot

388
00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:15.640
of people.

389
00:20:16.240 --> 00:20:18.119
I agree, Yeah, it brings up a lot of shame

390
00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:21.279
and guilt. Right, and so we tried to deal with

391
00:20:21.319 --> 00:20:24.759
that in the book. But then the fourth relationship is values.

392
00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:26.640
What is our relationship with our values? And as Ryan

393
00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:29.319
mentioned earlier that there are these sort of well, there

394
00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:31.839
are four different types of values. What Ryan was talking

395
00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:34.200
about a moment ago is this fourth type of value.

396
00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:36.000
I'll get there in a second. But we all have

397
00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:39.519
the same sort of foundational values. But then we have

398
00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:42.079
sort of these so like every house is built on

399
00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:48.519
a foundation, so health, relationships, growth, contribution, creativity, These are

400
00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:51.960
similar values that most human beings have. They may manifest

401
00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:55.039
differently for all of us. They take different shapes, but

402
00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:57.599
for the most part, we all have the same foundational values.

403
00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:01.119
But then we have these structual values, you know, the

404
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:06.359
sort of planks in your house, that the structure that

405
00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:09.279
determines the shape of your house, and that's those tend

406
00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:12.200
to be individual. And then we have surface values, things

407
00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:15.160
that add value to our life. Sometimes these are even

408
00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:19.359
considered just preferences or interests. And then, unfortunately, we spend

409
00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:23.240
most of our time focusing on the fourth area of values,

410
00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:27.279
the imaginary values, those lip service values that Ryan was

411
00:21:27.319 --> 00:21:30.799
talking about. We pretend so many things are worthwhile in

412
00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:33.680
our lives. But if you show you might say your

413
00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:35.880
values are all the nice things that Ryan said about

414
00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:38.640
health and the people, et cetera. But if you show

415
00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:42.319
me your calendar and your bank statement, how are you

416
00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:45.519
spending your time and your resources? I can tell you

417
00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:49.839
what you really value. And that's true with anyone. However,

418
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:53.319
we're spending those most precious resources of ours our time,

419
00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:58.079
our attention, our finances, well that is, those are our

420
00:21:58.119 --> 00:22:02.000
real priorities in our life. That's what we actually value. Unfortunately,

421
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:04.680
we're spending a whole lot of time on things that

422
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:09.079
we don't want to spend time on. The fifth relationships

423
00:22:09.079 --> 00:22:11.440
our relationship with money. Of course, that's rather contingentous. It

424
00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:17.640
breaks up relationships and businesses and marriages, et cetera, and

425
00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:19.880
it makes us miserable. We go into debt to buy

426
00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:22.519
things we don't need, to impress people we don't even know.

427
00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:26.599
And then the last two areas we have our relationship

428
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:28.279
with creativity we can't talk about.

429
00:22:28.279 --> 00:22:29.359
Really, we're all creators.

430
00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:32.000
We've been told by the media that we are consumers

431
00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:35.119
and by business big big businesses and corporations that we

432
00:22:35.160 --> 00:22:39.160
are consumers, but fundamentally we are creators. We have been

433
00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:43.759
creators for millennia. And yes, it's true that we do

434
00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:46.680
consume some stuff. There's a question about that, and certain

435
00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:48.400
things add value to our life. Ryan and I are

436
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:50.880
not aesthetics. We're not saying get rid of your stuff

437
00:22:50.920 --> 00:22:53.799
and live with nothing, become a monk. What we're trying

438
00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:56.640
to understand is, Wow, what adds value to our lives,

439
00:22:57.319 --> 00:22:59.279
and then let's get rid of the stuff that doesn't.

440
00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:00.000
Remember.

441
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:01.599
Once in one of our live events, someone.

442
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:03.440
Came up said, it seems like you guys didn't get

443
00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:06.400
rid of anything important, and Ryan just looked at him

444
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:09.839
and he goes, yeah, that's right. That's the whole point

445
00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:12.480
of the whole minimalism thing. We shed the access so

446
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:14.440
we can make room for what's truly important.

447
00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:21.400
I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the

448
00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:24.400
benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are

449
00:23:24.519 --> 00:23:27.200
enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe

450
00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:29.559
so that you get notified when you apps drop and

451
00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:32.079
head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen

452
00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:41.640
and leave us a rating and review. You talk the

453
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:45.240
bit that really struck me in the book. I haven't

454
00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:48.599
finished reading it, but you talk about how you, Joshua

455
00:23:49.160 --> 00:23:52.440
got rid of your TV. First of all, you just

456
00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:55.079
moved and you didn't have a TV. And then you

457
00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:57.519
needed to get the internet connected, and you're delayed getting

458
00:23:57.559 --> 00:24:01.119
the internet connected, and then ultimately you put the phone away,

459
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:05.039
and just those three like, well, they're three huge things,

460
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:07.400
but the television, the Internet, and the phone, and suddenly

461
00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:11.319
there was all of this space, which I think many

462
00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:14.480
people would initially find deeply uncomfortable because they're so used

463
00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:17.519
to being busy and distracted. But what that opened up

464
00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:23.359
in terms of the space to create and connect and

465
00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:28.640
all of those really important things. But I guess for

466
00:24:28.680 --> 00:24:31.680
the average person, how do we It's about looking at well,

467
00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:33.400
how do we You don't have to get rid of

468
00:24:33.400 --> 00:24:36.519
your internet and your phone and your TV, but how

469
00:24:36.519 --> 00:24:38.720
do you make more of that space? How do you

470
00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:40.920
use those things less and more meaningfully?

471
00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:42.680
I like to think that this book as not a

472
00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:45.000
how to book. We have certainly have some sort of

473
00:24:45.559 --> 00:24:49.599
rules in there that we share loosely and some best practices,

474
00:24:49.640 --> 00:24:52.240
but it's really a Y two book. I mean, look,

475
00:24:52.279 --> 00:24:56.839
our addictions are showing. You know, if you look around

476
00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:00.519
next time you're in a checkout line, going to see

477
00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:05.480
your heads tilted downward, faces lost and glowing screens. Our

478
00:25:05.559 --> 00:25:10.759
technology is turning us into zombies. It's weird because a

479
00:25:10.839 --> 00:25:14.160
generation ago, nearly everyone was what what were they doing?

480
00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:15.880
They would just light up a cigarette next to you,

481
00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:18.160
even at the office or on an airplane, and it

482
00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:23.119
seemed completely normal. But now if someone did that next

483
00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:25.359
to you, you would be like, what the heck are you doing?

484
00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:30.480
This is this is insane and it's unthinkable, right, But

485
00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:33.519
it's just been replaced by the captivating glow of all

486
00:25:33.559 --> 00:25:35.119
of these screens that are around us.

487
00:25:35.160 --> 00:25:38.200
Scrolling is the new smoking. And so.

488
00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:43.400
There's this great comedian Ronnie Chang. He has this jokey

489
00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:46.000
he says he's an immigrant, and he said, it feels

490
00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:49.240
like every night in America is a competition to see

491
00:25:49.240 --> 00:25:51.920
how many screens we can get between our wall and

492
00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:55.759
in our faces. It's the TV, and then it's like

493
00:25:55.799 --> 00:25:58.880
my laptop, and then the tablet, and then the phone,

494
00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:02.200
and then the apple or whatever, and it's all of

495
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:05.119
these things. Well, why are we doing that? Because we

496
00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:08.839
were afraid of something. We're afraid of boredom, which is

497
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:12.000
weird because what if we were to reframe that, it's

498
00:26:12.039 --> 00:26:12.599
not boredom.

499
00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:15.319
What if it's peace? Oh my god, what are we

500
00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:16.119
afraid of peace?

501
00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:19.319
Yeah? Well, why are we afraid of peace? Well, because

502
00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:23.119
we feel inadequate, We feel like we aren't enough. And yeah,

503
00:26:23.240 --> 00:26:24.799
in the book, we dealt with a lot of things,

504
00:26:24.839 --> 00:26:28.920
a lot of sort of shame with being counter cultural,

505
00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:31.960
but also the shame before that, right, I mean, Ryan

506
00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:33.519
and I did a lot of things that we aren't

507
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:37.680
proud of. The book deals with a drug addiction, alcohol abuse.

508
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:39.319
I had a really good friend of mine call me

509
00:26:39.400 --> 00:26:42.759
today this morning, and you know, for the book, I

510
00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:45.240
actually sat down with Ryan's first time I've ever interviewed

511
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:47.400
him for anything. We sort of just did this outline

512
00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:51.079
of some of the things that he went through throughout

513
00:26:51.079 --> 00:26:51.680
his twenties.

514
00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:54.000
And I had.

515
00:26:53.880 --> 00:26:55.680
A friend call me today, a friend who knows both

516
00:26:55.720 --> 00:26:57.720
of us really well, and he goes, wow, I didn't know.

517
00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:00.240
I didn't know all of this about Ryan, Like I

518
00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:03.640
knew some of the edges. But this is the most

519
00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:06.519
personal that you guys have ever gotten. And the reason

520
00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:09.599
being is we all deal with this stuff. We all

521
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:12.640
deal with some sort of addiction, whether it's technology addiction,

522
00:27:13.119 --> 00:27:16.480
drug addiction, alcohol addiction, food addiction that was my addiction,

523
00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:22.039
and so stuff addiction, consumerism, addiction, all of these addictions.

524
00:27:22.039 --> 00:27:23.839
We all deal with it, but we don't ever talk

525
00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:25.720
about it, right, we're ashamed of it.

526
00:27:26.119 --> 00:27:28.359
We deal with things like infidelity, which both of us

527
00:27:28.359 --> 00:27:30.359
write about in the book.

528
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:33.440
These things come up in our lives because we feel

529
00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:36.960
as though we need to escape, and so had we

530
00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:40.240
had to unpack some of these these escapes in our

531
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:42.759
own lives so that we could we could help people

532
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:45.960
understand that this is not that in a way, it

533
00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:48.599
sounds cliche, but some cliches are actually profound.

534
00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:49.319
You're not alone.

535
00:27:50.920 --> 00:27:51.119
You know.

536
00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:54.920
It's interesting we have this weird standard we hold people to,

537
00:27:55.319 --> 00:28:00.559
like especially those in influencer positions or role models or

538
00:28:00.759 --> 00:28:03.440
you know, government positions. We have this like standard that

539
00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:07.680
they have to be, you know, on this pedestal. They

540
00:28:07.720 --> 00:28:11.960
have to be more perfect than your average person. And

541
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:17.480
what this creates is actually it creates a lot of disingenuousness.

542
00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:19.839
I mean, it creates a lot of a lot of lies,

543
00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:21.960
a lot of cover ups, a lot of things like that,

544
00:28:22.599 --> 00:28:25.000
when in reality, you know, when I look at the

545
00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:27.559
people I learned from the most, it's the people who

546
00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:30.680
have been where I have been and they overcome it

547
00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:32.640
and they find a way to move forward in a

548
00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:37.920
way that is redemptive, that leads them towards a more

549
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:41.079
meaningful life. They don't give up, and they move past it,

550
00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:43.319
they get over it. And so you know, Josh and

551
00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:44.920
I really wanted to do that with this book, Like

552
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:46.960
we wanted to show like, hey, we are not on

553
00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:50.440
this pedestal. We're not better than thou. We're not you know,

554
00:28:50.599 --> 00:28:55.200
there's nothing exceptional about us. I mean, maybe the only

555
00:28:55.240 --> 00:28:58.160
exceptional thing is is we decided to do something about

556
00:28:58.200 --> 00:29:01.640
our crappy lives and and change the.

557
00:29:01.640 --> 00:29:02.480
Way we were living.

558
00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:06.079
But again, I mean, I think that's where people will

559
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:08.839
get the most out of Josh and I story out

560
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:12.000
of this book is realizing that, you know, Josh and

561
00:29:12.039 --> 00:29:14.759
I are just like everyone else. We just decided to

562
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:17.799
do a few different things and live a little bit differently.

563
00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:21.680
One hundred percent agree. I think we all learn more

564
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:25.240
and we experience more shifts within ourselves when we hear

565
00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:30.279
other people's lived experience and we can relate to other

566
00:29:30.279 --> 00:29:32.519
people's struggles. I mean, most of what you're talking about

567
00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:34.880
here I can personally relate to, and you talk about

568
00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:37.960
there's lots of things that I hear in your story,

569
00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:40.559
and I know the listeners of the show as well,

570
00:29:40.599 --> 00:29:42.599
we'll be able to see in their own stories, in

571
00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:45.880
their own lives. I think you know I was going

572
00:29:45.960 --> 00:29:49.279
to say to you guys, I'm not a minimalist. In fact,

573
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:52.359
I'm probably a bit compulsive with clothes and books on

574
00:29:52.440 --> 00:29:56.720
my two Achilles heels are the things that I spend

575
00:29:56.720 --> 00:29:59.599
way too much money on, and I would make the

576
00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:01.519
distinct I don't know if you would make the distinction.

577
00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:04.200
And this is just a side note, but I think

578
00:30:04.200 --> 00:30:06.920
there is a difference between being attached to the actual stuff.

579
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:09.680
Because I love to have a good clear out, sometimes

580
00:30:09.759 --> 00:30:12.079
there's still a bit of attachment or we'll ever use

581
00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:14.319
that thing again. An attachment like you said, to the

582
00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:18.079
dopamine hit of the buying the stuff. You know, it's

583
00:30:18.119 --> 00:30:21.559
that compulsive shopping kind of thing, like I get a

584
00:30:21.640 --> 00:30:24.799
hit every time I shop, versus actually I just really

585
00:30:26.440 --> 00:30:28.920
am attached to all of these things in my house.

586
00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:31.519
There's a difference, right.

587
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:34.839
Yeah, one's a chase, one's an attachment. I think they

588
00:30:34.920 --> 00:30:37.920
both will lead to misery. They'll both lead to feeling

589
00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:41.640
pretty quite crappy. But you're right, you're able you can

590
00:30:41.799 --> 00:30:45.400
keep things and not have an attachment to them. You know,

591
00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:50.960
I'm rather utilitarian, so I'm maybe a more extreme minimalist

592
00:30:51.319 --> 00:30:55.559
than some other minimalists. But that's just because I've identified

593
00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:57.920
what adds value to my life and I don't have

594
00:30:57.960 --> 00:31:00.480
a problem letting go of anything. One of the things

595
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:02.119
we write about in the book, we have these sixteen

596
00:31:02.200 --> 00:31:04.240
rules for living with less, and one of the rules

597
00:31:04.279 --> 00:31:07.000
is called the willing to walk rule. There's this old

598
00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:11.119
movie from the nineties called Heat, and there's a character

599
00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:13.200
who I don't aspire to be like. He's actually the

600
00:31:13.240 --> 00:31:16.720
bad guy in the movie, but it's Robert de Niro's character,

601
00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:19.960
Neil McCullough I think his name was. And anyway, he

602
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:23.720
has this great line he said, never bring anything into

603
00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:26.240
your life that you're not prepared to walk away from

604
00:31:26.359 --> 00:31:29.960
in thirty seconds flat. Now, while I don't agree with

605
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:35.720
that literally, I can understand the sentiment behind that, because.

606
00:31:35.400 --> 00:31:36.480
What's the alternative?

607
00:31:36.519 --> 00:31:40.039
And I even apply that to relationships, even to my marriage.

608
00:31:40.119 --> 00:31:43.880
Not thirty seconds flat. That's a bit hyperbolic, right, But

609
00:31:44.759 --> 00:31:47.160
I do look and I say, what's the alternative to

610
00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:50.519
stay in something out of obligation to hold on to

611
00:31:50.599 --> 00:31:54.440
an object because you feel obligated. Well, that's a type

612
00:31:54.440 --> 00:31:59.200
of prison, right. And so if I'm in a relationship,

613
00:31:59.240 --> 00:32:02.680
whether it's a marriage or a business relationship or a friendship,

614
00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:05.599
whatever it might be, I want to be there because

615
00:32:05.640 --> 00:32:08.319
I want to be there. I will sometimes say that

616
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:12.440
the thing you want is never the thing you want,

617
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:16.359
And so what does that mean?

618
00:32:16.599 --> 00:32:16.799
Right?

619
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:23.480
We think that we desire possessions and people and prominence,

620
00:32:24.119 --> 00:32:27.880
but really what we really desire is the feeling that

621
00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:31.799
arises from those things. And I think if we interrogate

622
00:32:31.880 --> 00:32:37.079
our wants, we can really locate what we truly desire.

623
00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:38.319
It's fascinating.

624
00:32:38.359 --> 00:32:40.200
I think a lot of us say we want peace

625
00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:44.160
in our lives, but we behave in ways that attract

626
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:48.279
all the chaos. And I'm saying this not from a

627
00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:51.160
place of judgment. I'm saying it from a place of

628
00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:55.400
identification because I see that in me, and I see

629
00:32:55.400 --> 00:32:59.480
that especially in the way that the way that I

630
00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:01.240
behave yesteryear.

631
00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:03.440
Yeah, Cas, I'll tell you too.

632
00:33:03.559 --> 00:33:05.640
I mean, just you know, to add an accent to

633
00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:08.599
the fact that we're not on these pedestals, you know,

634
00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:11.279
as one of the minimalists, I still get that dopamine

635
00:33:11.319 --> 00:33:15.519
hit when I buy something. I mean, I probably like

636
00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:17.440
I buy a new phone when my phone breaks, you know,

637
00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:20.680
I don't. I don't go after the next upgrade just

638
00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:22.960
so I can have the next upgrade, but I want it.

639
00:33:23.079 --> 00:33:25.480
Every time I see that advertisement for the release of it,

640
00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:28.640
I'm like, oh, Wow, that's cool. It's got a HDR

641
00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:32.000
camera on. Wow it shoots in four K, and you

642
00:33:32.039 --> 00:33:34.839
know whatever it is, Like my impulse is to go

643
00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:37.960
get that thing, and eventually my phone will break or

644
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:40.480
it gets like so outdated it doesn't run anymore or whatever,

645
00:33:40.839 --> 00:33:42.519
and I go get a new phone. And man, when

646
00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:44.599
I get that box and take off the plastic and

647
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:46.839
open it up, like there is that dopamine hit. So

648
00:33:47.559 --> 00:33:49.480
you know, even as one of the minimalists, it's something

649
00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:52.880
I personally still struggle with and identify with. But I

650
00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:55.960
also know that if I chase that particular type of

651
00:33:56.400 --> 00:33:59.680
dopamine hit, it's it's going to it's gonna it's gonna

652
00:33:59.720 --> 00:34:01.440
lead me. Well, you know, when you go with the flow,

653
00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:04.440
you end up going, you end up getting to the fall,

654
00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:07.119
and I certainly don't want to end up there.

655
00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:09.480
Yeah. Oh that's good to know.

656
00:34:09.679 --> 00:34:11.440
I was going to ask, has it had it been

657
00:34:12.039 --> 00:34:18.519
challenging to stay with this lifestyle for such a longe

658
00:34:18.519 --> 00:34:20.440
You know, that's a it's a commitment, isn't it Like

659
00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:21.320
it's a.

660
00:34:21.239 --> 00:34:22.800
Yeah, it's a big commitment.

661
00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:27.480
Well, you know when you when someone here simple, they

662
00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:34.559
think easy and simple and easier not necessarily synonymous. So yeah,

663
00:34:34.760 --> 00:34:37.119
I would say, yeah, you're absolutely right. When you decide

664
00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:40.960
to live a deliberate life, a more intentional life, when

665
00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:43.840
you decide to live a simple life, it's really difficult,

666
00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:48.400
and it's it's a lot of you know, it's a

667
00:34:48.440 --> 00:34:50.639
lot of things you have to combat, whether it's your impulses,

668
00:34:50.679 --> 00:34:53.559
whether it's society, whether it's your friends and family who

669
00:34:53.639 --> 00:34:55.519
are now judging you for living a simple life.

670
00:34:55.559 --> 00:34:57.840
I mean, there's a lot that goes along with it.

671
00:34:58.760 --> 00:35:01.280
The one thing I will say, though, is, you know,

672
00:35:01.400 --> 00:35:04.599
just like with any other healthy habits we bring into

673
00:35:04.599 --> 00:35:07.960
our lives, once you get consistent with it, it starts

674
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:11.679
to show, you start to feel it, and it starts

675
00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:14.880
to get a little easier. But certainly there will always

676
00:35:14.920 --> 00:35:15.880
be those challenges.

677
00:35:16.360 --> 00:35:19.079
Yeah, I was the only two things that I have

678
00:35:19.239 --> 00:35:21.920
that are similar, I guess in my own life one

679
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:25.679
time was when I became vegan, and I'm not vegan anymore,

680
00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:29.360
still vegetarian, but I turned to veganism long before there

681
00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:33.519
were aisles full of vegan products in supermarkets, over ten

682
00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:35.440
years ago, and the other wise I gave up drinking

683
00:35:35.960 --> 00:35:40.800
almost a year ago. And in both cases they what

684
00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:44.039
it took. What I've realized is that what it takes

685
00:35:44.199 --> 00:35:48.280
is a shift from kind of information we all know

686
00:35:48.679 --> 00:35:51.079
we should drink less, for example, or we all can

687
00:35:51.239 --> 00:35:58.280
know the damage of animal agriculture. But it's when that

688
00:35:58.840 --> 00:36:02.559
information turns into insight or sort of knowledge becomes knowing,

689
00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:05.079
you know, when you have a fundamental shift on the

690
00:36:05.079 --> 00:36:07.400
inside and you see things in a different way, and

691
00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:11.280
once you do, you kind of can't unsee it. And

692
00:36:11.320 --> 00:36:15.519
then what I've found is that the that desire for

693
00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:18.880
those things just is really not there anymore because you

694
00:36:19.079 --> 00:36:22.280
see it in a completely different way. And I feel

695
00:36:22.280 --> 00:36:26.159
like that's what you guys are doing such a good

696
00:36:26.199 --> 00:36:30.159
job of is helping us to see living with less

697
00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:33.159
in a different way so that more people can experience

698
00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:34.519
that same insight.

699
00:36:34.840 --> 00:36:36.320
Yeah, that's a great point.

700
00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:38.920
It makes me think about is we just moved to

701
00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:43.639
Los Angeles a little under four years ago, and as

702
00:36:43.719 --> 00:36:45.719
soon as I got here, I realized, like, oh wow,

703
00:36:45.800 --> 00:36:48.880
this minimalism thing I've been doing for the past several

704
00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:52.719
several years has been preparing me to live in LA

705
00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:57.679
because around every single corner is some name brand you know,

706
00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:04.400
clothing or suitcase or you know whatever. There's there are

707
00:37:06.440 --> 00:37:10.159
sports cars and Tesla's and Lamborghini's and Ferraris and all

708
00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:11.840
these career I mean, there's a lot of opulence here

709
00:37:11.880 --> 00:37:15.480
right It's Los Angeles, and I do look at that stuff,

710
00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:17.280
and I can even admire the beauty of some of

711
00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:21.719
these things. But like you said, like once I kind

712
00:37:21.719 --> 00:37:24.079
of saw it for what it is, like now when

713
00:37:24.119 --> 00:37:26.599
I see it, I can admire it, but I can quickly,

714
00:37:27.719 --> 00:37:31.000
or I should say, more quickly dismiss those impulses to

715
00:37:31.079 --> 00:37:33.880
chase after those things because I know where it leads.

716
00:37:34.280 --> 00:37:36.800
Yeah, I think that the thing to point out there

717
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:39.039
with the changes that you make is that they weren't

718
00:37:39.079 --> 00:37:43.079
really habit changes. I think habit changes won't change your habits.

719
00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:46.920
Human beings are infatuated with habit change. I think the

720
00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:52.280
Internet has really amplified that, right, but lasting change doesn't

721
00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:55.760
really work like that. I'll state it more plainly here.

722
00:37:56.280 --> 00:38:01.360
Changing your life won't change your life, but understand will. Yeah,

723
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:05.159
the moment you recognize the source of your troubles, there's

724
00:38:05.159 --> 00:38:08.480
an awareness that flows through every fiber of your being,

725
00:38:09.039 --> 00:38:12.800
and your habits will change without volition because you try

726
00:38:12.840 --> 00:38:14.000
to change your habit every time.

727
00:38:14.039 --> 00:38:14.719
We've all tried this.

728
00:38:14.840 --> 00:38:16.119
Right, I'm going to get up and go to the

729
00:38:16.119 --> 00:38:19.559
gym at six am, I'm going to drink sixty four

730
00:38:19.639 --> 00:38:22.519
ounces of water. All these things, and yeah, it lasts

731
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:24.920
for a day or a week or maybe a month. Right,

732
00:38:25.320 --> 00:38:27.559
But then, of course we don't have that deep understanding.

733
00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:30.840
But once we see the problem in its entirety, not

734
00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:35.960
the solutions, not the symptoms, but the actual problem, we

735
00:38:36.039 --> 00:38:37.400
have no choice but to change.

736
00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:38.239
Yeah, exactly.

737
00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:42.519
I also teach mindfulness meditation, and so I know firsthand

738
00:38:42.519 --> 00:38:45.280
the challenge that people have with just sitting quietly with

739
00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:49.119
no distraction, no phone, nothing but their own thoughts. And

740
00:38:49.159 --> 00:38:52.679
it feels like the minute getting rid of your stuff

741
00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:55.880
is almost the same thing on a physical level. As

742
00:38:55.960 --> 00:38:59.599
you said, would you agree that when you remove all

743
00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:03.199
of the st you remove all of the distraction and

744
00:39:03.239 --> 00:39:05.000
people are forced to sit with themselves.

745
00:39:05.199 --> 00:39:07.960
Yes, yeah, it's funny. It's this is absurd.

746
00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:11.119
We have to teach mindfulness and we have to teach

747
00:39:11.199 --> 00:39:15.400
people to let go of their of attachment.

748
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:17.400
Right, that's not our default state.

749
00:39:17.519 --> 00:39:20.840
If you look at pre civilized people like the Hadza

750
00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:25.079
for example, over in Tanzania, they're not attached to stuff.

751
00:39:25.639 --> 00:39:26.840
You don't need to teach.

752
00:39:26.599 --> 00:39:29.039
Them to be mind My daughter, who's eight years old,

753
00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:32.320
they have mind fifteen minutes of mindfulness in her school

754
00:39:32.320 --> 00:39:34.119
every day, And at first I'm like, wow, that's wonderful,

755
00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:35.159
but that's absurd.

756
00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:36.880
You know what that really tells me.

757
00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:40.079
You're spending seven hours taking her out of that state,

758
00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:43.559
and then you're teaching her how to She knows how

759
00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:47.960
to be mindful. It's us parents who sort of, you know,

760
00:39:48.079 --> 00:39:52.239
beat the mindfulness out of their not literally obviously, but

761
00:39:52.679 --> 00:39:57.679
we we Parenting is detrimental to children. I think we

762
00:39:57.719 --> 00:40:00.519
adults have more knowledge, but our children and are far

763
00:40:00.559 --> 00:40:04.840
wiser than their conditioned parents. Not like an experienced wisdom,

764
00:40:04.920 --> 00:40:10.599
but like a human being wisdom. There's an inherent mindfulness there, right,

765
00:40:11.119 --> 00:40:15.079
you see this in children. Consequently, we are I think

766
00:40:15.079 --> 00:40:17.679
we're better served by learning from our kids than we

767
00:40:17.719 --> 00:40:21.400
are from parenting them. One of the most influential people

768
00:40:21.400 --> 00:40:23.679
in my life is a guy named Kapil Gupta, who

769
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:29.360
is a philosopher, and he said, adults are fools. Children

770
00:40:29.480 --> 00:40:35.679
are wise. Children see every For children, everything is new.

771
00:40:35.960 --> 00:40:38.400
Adults haven't seen a new thing in years.

772
00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:39.159
Yeah.

773
00:40:39.719 --> 00:40:43.880
How fascinating is that we have to teach ourselves to

774
00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:46.519
be mindful? I saw in the calendar this week, Ryan

775
00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:49.960
has a breathing exercise on the calendar. On Friday. I

776
00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:53.440
have a breathing app on my phone. How absurd is

777
00:40:53.480 --> 00:40:57.280
it that I have to have an app that tells

778
00:40:57.280 --> 00:40:58.639
me to breathe?

779
00:40:59.679 --> 00:41:02.559
Is the world? Is the world that we live in?

780
00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:06.199
Yeah, I've just been reading another really great book about

781
00:41:06.199 --> 00:41:09.119
breathing on that. I think that's fascinating that none of

782
00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:11.159
us are actually breathing how we're supposed to breathe. But

783
00:41:11.199 --> 00:41:13.320
that's a whole separate podcast conversation.

784
00:41:13.639 --> 00:41:13.960
Indeed.

785
00:41:14.199 --> 00:41:17.199
Indeed, Yeah, you guys, I'm conscious of your time. I

786
00:41:17.239 --> 00:41:20.400
really appreciate you being here. Like I said, I think

787
00:41:20.440 --> 00:41:22.199
that you're the work that you're doing. I really appreciate

788
00:41:22.239 --> 00:41:24.280
because it is helping. Certainly has helped me, and I

789
00:41:24.280 --> 00:41:27.599
know it will help listeners to make that internal shift

790
00:41:29.079 --> 00:41:32.639
from you know, just having this intellectual understanding that, yeah,

791
00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:35.000
we should buy less stuff because it's bad for the environment.

792
00:41:35.159 --> 00:41:38.639
To actually, we should be re examining how we live

793
00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:44.119
our lives and you know, reappraising our relationships with with

794
00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:47.320
lots of things, as you have outlined in the book,

795
00:41:47.360 --> 00:41:49.920
to help us to live a more meaningful life, which

796
00:41:49.960 --> 00:41:51.519
is what we're all after.

797
00:41:51.719 --> 00:41:54.440
Hey man, thank you so much, thank you very much.

798
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:00.719
Like I said earlier, I truly believe that for any

799
00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:04.800
lifestyle change to be sustainable, we really need to look

800
00:42:04.840 --> 00:42:08.079
at things in a whole different way. And Josh and

801
00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:11.480
Ryan's latest book, Love People, Use Things certainly has helped

802
00:42:11.519 --> 00:42:15.440
me to view this whole minimalism idea from a different perspective.

803
00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:17.880
And if that interests you, you can grab it in

804
00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:20.599
all good bookstores now, And if you're keen to learn

805
00:42:20.599 --> 00:42:24.679
more about minimalism, there are loads of resources on their website,

806
00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:29.000
theminimalists dot com, or definitely check out their podcasts or

807
00:42:29.039 --> 00:42:32.320
their films on Netflix or any of their other books.

808
00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:35.880
As always, if you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to

809
00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:38.760
be notified of when I release new episodes. Leave me

810
00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:41.239
a rating or review, as it really does help the

811
00:42:41.280 --> 00:42:44.920
show to be seen and heard by more listeners, and

812
00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:48.719
of course tell your friends come and hang out with me.

813
00:42:48.760 --> 00:42:51.719
On Instagram I'm at cast Done underscore xo, or on

814
00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:55.679
facebookcast Done dot XO. My website is cast Done dot

815
00:42:55.679 --> 00:42:57.599
com and you can get on my mailing list there.

816
00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:00.000
I look forward to catching you on the next episod

817
00:43:00.039 --> 00:43:07.760
So of Crapy A happy listener,