How to Save Your Relationship with Tarah Kerwin, Couples Therapist

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This is Crappita Happy and I am your host, Cass Dunn.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist. I'm mindfulness meditation teacher

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and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In

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this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent

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people who are experts in their field and who have

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something of value to share that will help you feel

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less crappy and more happy. My guest today is Tara Kerwin,

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who is a marriage and family therapist from the US. Tara,

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alongside her husband EJ, is co founder of Relationship Renovation

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Counseling Center, and together they also host a top rnded

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podcast called The Relationship Renovation Podcast. Relationships is such a

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huge topic and Tara has really her talk in their space.

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Although she has been a licensed therapist since her early twenties,

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it wasn't until she was in her mid thirties and

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met her now husband that she realized that she had

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her own trauma that had been impacting her ability to

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cultivate really healthy relationships. So together, the two of them

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recognized that while they were really experts in this space,

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they each had their own work to do in order

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to ensure that their relationship survived and thrived. Tara recognized

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she had a whole lot of past trauma that she

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thought she had dealt with, but that she hadn't. She

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has really cultivated a lot of self awareness and now

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they have built a relationship that they can both feel

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very proud of. But they also have used what they

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have learned in their personal lives to develop a signature

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couples therapy program. So in addition to the face to

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face work that they do with people, they also have

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an online program, which Tara and I will talk about

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in this episode. We talked about the impact of early

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attachment wounds, past traumas that impact current relationships, problems that

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arise when there is a lack of intimacy in a relationship,

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and how you navigate those conversations. We cover so much

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ground in this I know it's going to be relevant

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to so many people. So at that further Ado, let's

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jump in. Here's Tara. Tara, Welcome to the Crappy to

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Happy podcast.

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So happy to be here. I love the name.

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I love the name of your podcast, Relationship Renovation. I

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bet that gets a whole lot of listeners just because

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of the title.

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Yes, exactly, like, what does this mean to renovate my relationship?

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That means many things.

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Yeah, so you are a relationship counselor you're a licensed

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therapist in the US along with your husband, and you

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run a relationship counseling center together. I mean, this is

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a huge topic for any audience, and especially with the

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podcast Crappy to Happy, you know, relationships up for many

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people a big source of distress. Broadly, what are the

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issues that most people by the time they're getting to

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see you, what are the kinds of issues that you're

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seeing day in and day out.

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Okay, how much time do we have?

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So I would say unfortunately, like eighty percent of the

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couples we see it is like either this or we're done.

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So they most humans wait until a crisis happens to

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try to repair it. So unfortunately, like eighty percent of

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the couples are already in some kind of crisis mode.

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And it's infidelity, emotional, physical infidelity, it's poor communication, it's

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been resentment for twenty years, Intimacy is totally nonexistent, you

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name it, we see it, and my heart wants so

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badly to do more preventative measures, and we've tried to

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do like relationship building skills for newly committed couples. Guess what, No,

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it doesn't work because they're good already. And so I

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think that people just don't understand once a relationship hits

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a certain point, there are so many skills needed. And

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I learned this myself in order to make a relationship last.

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We can't just keep our fingers cross it. It'll stay

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that way forever. So unfortunately, yeah, people wait until the

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last you know, either though we're divorced, or we're done or.

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A threat, and then here we are.

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It's a pretty heightened anxious place when they come in

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to see us. And I totally get it because I

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was right there with them.

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Yeah, do you want to just talk about that? Maybe

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because you have your own personal story, don't you of

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having oh yeah, maybe not the happiest relationships and then

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having to really do the work yourself different it, I.

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Know, I was like, what I mean, I've been a

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marriage and family therapist for twenty two years, so I

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knew when I was a little girl, like I didn't

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know what was called the Copples therapist, but I knew

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I was and to help couples because.

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Of I don't know what was just this, Like when

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I would.

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See couples in distress, I would cry for them. I

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just had this empathic ability to feel people's pain and

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suffering and being in my own like pretty awful, neglectful

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childhood with a ton of trauma.

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I knew that I.

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Was going to get through it because I had a

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resilient soul from a young age and that one day

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I would help others.

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And so I was a great marriage counselor.

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Yet in my own life like, yeah, this relationship isn't working,

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This relationship isn't working, this relationship isn't working.

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And I didn't realize just how much my trauma. I

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thought I was just like this really resilient soul.

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I didn't recognize how much my trauma was impacting my

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ability to stay in a healthy relationship because I just

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didn't even know what that was. And so when I

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met EJ, who of course was another therapist, like it

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took another therapist. And when I met Ej, he just

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had this emotional safety to him that I've never had

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in another relationship, Like he just would go deeper, and

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I just I knew that I didn't want to leave

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him the way I left other relationships, and so, I mean,

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I was like, okay, I'll marry you.

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I was thirty eight.

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I had awaited for a really long time, and then

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you know, we got married and he had two boys

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who were two and four, who were delightful, and then

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on our honeymoon, we get pregnant with twins.

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Oh wow.

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So I went from zero to four kids under the

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age of five. Six months later, the twins, by the way,

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both had colic, like, not not just for weeks, for

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nine months, and so I was like, I'm out of here.

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I did not sign up for this. What is this awfulness?

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I mean, I was so stressed, so overwhelmed, had no

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idea that twins and colic would and nursing every hour.

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And that's when I wanted to leave EJ. I was like,

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I this is too much for me. I had never

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been that overwhelmed in my whole life. And that's when I,

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you know, I just called them one day crying. I

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was like, if the two of us we're pretty great people,

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we've got the skills, we're therapists. If we're having this

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heart of a time navigating this new transition to blended

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family and twins, I'm like we've got to a figure

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our shit out.

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B we have to help other couples in our community.

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And that was in twenty sixteen, some almost ten years ago,

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and now we have a staff of fifteen therapists and

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created this model that has helped couples. We have an

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at home program too, so it's actually helped couples worldwide.

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But it all started with like I knew I didn't

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want to leave, but we had to figure out why

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this was so hard. That was kind of the start

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of our relationship Renovation Counseling Center.

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And we're still together and our twins are eleven, and

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we made it. But it was really well guard.

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Because what I thought, like I thought EG and I

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had the skills, and when our life got stressful, he

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got defensive and avoidant. I got more anxious, and we

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literally disconnected.

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We did not know how to figure it out.

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And I feel like through our own experience and everything

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we had to do to develop our emotional safety and

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healthy communication.

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Like that's how we're.

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So people just really trust us because it's we had

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to go through it ourselves. So when couples come in

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and sit in front of us, we're like, oh, yeah,

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we know it might not be the same situation, but

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it's the same feeling alone, alone in it and disconnected.

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And it looks like you want different things, but actually

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you want the same thing.

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You just don't know how to say it.

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And for us, the intimacy piece was big because after

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the twins were born, no, like none of my body

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wanted any of it. That was a different person.

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Yeah, there is so much there to explore. I mean,

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first up to acknowledge that, I mean, one baby is

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a bomb in a relationship, but twins. I haven't had twins.

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I've only got one child, but I can only imagine

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the stress of twins. And then you add somebody else's

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to kids into your life as well, Like, that's a lot.

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That's a lot for any person to deal with. But

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what you have highlighted just then is the different ways

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that you and EJ dealt with how you handle pressure,

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basically because of your own early experience. So is that

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kind of where you tend to start with couples that

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come to see you, Yes.

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And a nuts Shelley, Yes, but you can't go there

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too soon because you kind of have to peel the

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layers off a little because what the first thing I did.

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I was so overwhelmed and resembl that EJ brought up

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this stress in my life.

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I'm like, come, dear you, what happened? Is that not

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my stuff?

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I was so resentful that I couldn't even hear. I

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did not have compassion for him. I did not want

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to be vulnerable with him. I was just angry at him.

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But even the sight of him, I was like, oh,

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and I had never had that before. And so that's

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what the couples we see like. They I mean, they

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sit on like opposite ends of the sofa. They got

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the pillows over them.

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I know it very well.

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I need to start getting very small love seats so

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they can't sit so far. So the very first thing

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I did, and this was before each and I even

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started our Couples Counting Center, is if I was feeling

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really resemful of him, I call a code word and

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I say, ej.

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Ours was burnt toast? Why?

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Because I kept forgetting I had toast and the toaster

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because I was always so dame busy and my coffee

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would be cold in the microwave, freaking toast would be burnt.

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And I just said, EJ. When I say burnt toast.

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That means I'm not good. I'm not going to say

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anything that's kind or loving because I'm not in a

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kind or loving space, and I need to take my.

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Own time out.

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And so either that's you taking all of the kids

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and our dogs just taking them away somewhere in the

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desert for ike, or I'm going to go in my

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room and don't let anybody come in there, like I

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just need to kind of calm my nervous system. And

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so that was the first thing I knew. I looked

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at him in resentment disdain, and I knew that that

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wasn't my heart, but it was for sure my overwhelmed

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Like how dare you make me feel so overwhelmed?

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That was my story.

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So then when I started taking the time outs for myself,

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I went through a little protocol.

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I don't know if you've ever heard of Tara Rock.

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Yeah, she's like one of my favorite people in the

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home white world, and she has this rain protocol, Recognize.

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Allow, investigate, Nurture.

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I would just go and my bedroom and cry, and

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I would listen to Tara Brock whatever her latest podcast was,

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it didn't matter.

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And I remember she took me through the rain technique.

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It's actually one of the biggest tools for mindfulness that

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we use at our center for couples. But and I

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would be like, what's happening here? And so I started

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to understand that my overwhelm was a result from when

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I was very little, so much trauma, so much abuse.

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I have a twin sister too, and.

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We both had it pretty bad, but she was more

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She would be more reactive, where I was like keep

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the peace kind of person because I didn't, you know,

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want my step parents to get crazy, so I would

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like try to protect my sister all of the time.

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So just that feeling of like overwhelm and trying.

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To keep us safe like that was the feeling that

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EJ triggered me. But I would never have known that

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had I not gone deeper. My nervous system doesn't know

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if it was thirty five years ago or today, but

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it was this feeling of I can't.

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Handle this and I'm not safe. EJ. Just walking in

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the tour could trigger that.

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So I started to recognize, oh my gosh, I haven't

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even hit on my trauma.

246
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I've just avoided it my whole life and helped others. Awesome,

247
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but no, and so.

248
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That was so the beginning was code words, so we

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helped couples stop reinforcing their negative it's traumatic for them,

250
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like they are not kind to each other, they are

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not making each other feel wanted, they are not making

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each other feel like they're in each other's care.

253
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That's trauma, right.

254
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We all want to feel a sense of belonging, So

255
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codewards one of the first things so they can just

256
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have some respite from that, and then we start to

257
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help them understand what those negative core beliefs are that

258
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are being triggered. For me, mine was I'm not safe

259
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and I'm insignificant. And when our person next to us

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can hear that, it's not that they are not.

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The direct route or cause of that suffering.

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That Actually, this started to get developed very early on

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because we use attachment theory in our practice. They're like,

264
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oh my god, I'm not the worst person in the world.

265
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Now compassion starts to get built, and now your partner

266
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can look at you and say, you are significant, you

267
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are safe. I'm so sorry the behaviors trigger that, but

268
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now I have a better understanding. So when both partners

269
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have a better understanding, then they can move through the

270
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challenges of having a relationship, which there are many, with

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compassion and empathy and a much broader understanding of like

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how we are from like young kids to now, like

273
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we're one person, but you know, when we cause suffering

274
00:14:51.440 --> 00:14:54.320
to another, it feels like we're the worst person in

275
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the world and we don't have space to see their suffering.

276
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But again, that process allows you know, when I come

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to EJ and be like, listen, when you said this,

278
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this is what happened, he had no idea that it

279
00:15:05.559 --> 00:15:11.320
was triggering some physical abuse from my stepdad or dad. Yeah,

280
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he was just like, wow, thank you for helping me understand.

281
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And I said, it's not about asking you to not

282
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do that behavior again, because you will. You will avoid,

283
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you will defend yourself, you will walk away.

284
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It will drive me crazy.

285
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Can't ask you to be this perfect person for me

286
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not to trigger my trauma. But if you can have

287
00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:31.440
a little bit more understanding and I can do my

288
00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:35.039
own work and come back and say how it impacted me, Well,

289
00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:38.039
now we're moving through it, not pushing it under the rug.

290
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And you know, there's some conversations that are easier than others.

291
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You know, intimacy is much harder that's a more vulnerable conversation.

292
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But when you get the skills of developing that kind

293
00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:55.759
compassionate communication around each other's suffering, all healing begins right there.

294
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And so we have a very high success rate.

295
00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:04.799
Only because we take them through this process and it

296
00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:07.440
takes about six months, but it is we're not just

297
00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:10.799
doing communication. We like, look at you from the time

298
00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:14.080
you are in your mother's room until you met this person,

299
00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:16.559
and we go through all of it and the layers

300
00:16:16.559 --> 00:16:19.639
of it and getting deep within what those negative core

301
00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:24.720
beliefs are about yourself. And I think that's why even

302
00:16:24.759 --> 00:16:27.559
if couples don't stay together, which sometimes that's the case,

303
00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:30.200
they have more clarity now and they did this for

304
00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:32.919
their kids and now they can be kind co.

305
00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:35.679
Apherance exactly exactly.

306
00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:38.600
That's huge because we're not like you have to be together.

307
00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:42.360
Yeah, of course, but Tara, what you just said there,

308
00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:45.759
and you obviously you opened with the fact that EJ's

309
00:16:45.799 --> 00:16:48.720
a therapist as well, and so he obviously while being

310
00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:51.559
a therapist, I know, as much as anybody doesn't make

311
00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:54.919
you the perfect evolved person, like you know, we can

312
00:16:54.960 --> 00:16:56.799
know all of this stuff but still have your own

313
00:16:57.039 --> 00:16:59.639
issues and patterns that you fall into. But he obviously

314
00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:02.679
was a person who was really like you said, he

315
00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:06.119
was emotionally safe and he was very available and able

316
00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:10.279
to hear that from you. Yeah, it sounds like it

317
00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:14.119
does really require two people to be involved in this,

318
00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:17.519
doesn't it, Because potentially while you were talking then I

319
00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:20.519
was thinking, I can already imagine in certain relationships with

320
00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:24.160
certain individuals, somebody almost weaponizing your trauma like ah see

321
00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:25.839
it is or because you're fucked up, like it is

322
00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:28.279
all because you're the one with the trauma. You know,

323
00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:31.119
Like it's got to be a really safe space for

324
00:17:31.160 --> 00:17:34.240
people to be able to be open about. Okay, this

325
00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:37.920
is my childhood wounds and this is how it's affecting

326
00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:39.119
me in the moment.

327
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And I have goosebumps only because like eg didn't even

328
00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:46.640
recognize how much healing he had to do with his

329
00:17:46.759 --> 00:17:49.400
defense and as he just thought he was like this

330
00:17:49.720 --> 00:17:53.240
mindful Buddhist right, I was like, oh no, no, sir,

331
00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:56.200
I feel that region of there. I can feel it.

332
00:17:56.599 --> 00:17:59.559
I Mean, it took me years for me to always

333
00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:03.559
challenge like, honey, there's something else happening here. Trust me life,

334
00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:06.640
And so he trusted me right, gave me the benefit

335
00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:09.680
of the doubt that I wasn't saying that to Like

336
00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:12.720
because he was always emotionally available, but he had some

337
00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:16.039
stuff that was very stuck to from his past relationship

338
00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:19.160
and his childhoods. But here was the thing. Because we're

339
00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:21.519
a therapist and we do what we do, we were

340
00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:26.880
compelled to heal and grow. Most people aren't in this field.

341
00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:31.759
They don't start a podcast. It's not as compelling because

342
00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:34.319
I can't be an impostor. I can't have a couple's

343
00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:37.119
counseling center and have all these couples I do these

344
00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:39.759
things and not do them for myself. So like, we

345
00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:43.680
were compelled to do the work together and I get

346
00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:47.079
the piece. For other couples, they're not, And so one

347
00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:51.680
person might be way more proactive than the other. Again,

348
00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:53.759
Eji and I were both proactive, I think because of

349
00:18:53.799 --> 00:18:56.200
the types of humans we are, and we really wanted

350
00:18:56.200 --> 00:18:57.839
to make this work, and we really.

351
00:18:57.640 --> 00:18:59.160
Wanted to support other couples.

352
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:04.279
But we have many individuals that come in and their

353
00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:07.960
partners just not ready, and we say listen, it just

354
00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:12.359
takes one person to be the change agent in this dynamic,

355
00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:16.039
because if you start having better boundaries, they can't treat

356
00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:18.640
you that way anymore, right or so we see a

357
00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:22.759
ton of individuals at our center too, because not all

358
00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:25.359
couples are ready and yeah, and there are people like

359
00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:30.880
we've had to deal with, right, access to narcissistic qualities, sociopathic.

360
00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:31.519
The term gas lighting.

361
00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:33.240
Please, I don't want to hear it anymore, like from

362
00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:35.200
over it.

363
00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:37.839
But it's like, you know, and we can't do there.

364
00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:41.160
You have to have some type of shared goal to

365
00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:43.720
do the couple's work that we offer, and so if

366
00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:46.440
we don't, we say, let's do some individual work first,

367
00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:49.640
so we know when it's We do a pretty lengthy

368
00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:52.160
consultation process to make sure that couple's are.

369
00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:55.240
Ready and not necessarily.

370
00:19:54.599 --> 00:19:56.880
Like you have to be all in, but just that

371
00:19:57.200 --> 00:20:01.519
there is openness to healings, suffering and whatever the way

372
00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:02.440
that looks, because we're.

373
00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:03.240
All uniquely different.

374
00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:08.519
When couples are in conflict, how does somebody know whether

375
00:20:09.400 --> 00:20:13.400
this is my trauma or this is my issue, or

376
00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:17.920
this relationship's just wrong for me, or you're just not

377
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:21.039
the right person for me. How does somebody make that?

378
00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:23.920
Because I think people get in their heads and really

379
00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:27.440
struggle to figure that out on their own. Are there

380
00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:29.960
signs like, are there things that people can explore for

381
00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:33.680
themselves or questions they can ask themselves that might help

382
00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:34.960
them have a clue about that.

383
00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:36.400
Yes, So I.

384
00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:39.200
Would say, so, first of all, you're just like in

385
00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:43.240
you're in the state of ambivalence, and do I even

386
00:20:43.240 --> 00:20:44.480
want to be with this person?

387
00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:45.559
Should we be together?

388
00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:50.680
The first piece is like how receptive is your partner

389
00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:53.640
right to doing some of the work, And let's just

390
00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:57.240
say that they're not. But you're recognizing that you're not happy,

391
00:20:57.319 --> 00:21:00.119
that you're sad that you don't have that energy at

392
00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:01.960
a piece of you anymore.

393
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:03.519
Like that was me. I just felt.

394
00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:06.440
Overwhelmed and just down and depressed, like this isn't me

395
00:21:06.839 --> 00:21:10.119
and it's got to be this person causing it. But

396
00:21:10.359 --> 00:21:13.559
I was like, Okay, I know right as a therapist

397
00:21:13.599 --> 00:21:18.839
since I was twenty two, I cannot have emotion regulation

398
00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:23.599
based on external circumstances. That I have to feel safe

399
00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:28.240
internally for me, no matter what the external is, and

400
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:33.880
so I would do a lot of internal emotion regulation

401
00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:38.640
first to have clarity. So I'm not expecting others to

402
00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:40.640
heal my wounds, which I used to do all of

403
00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:43.519
the time, And I feel like that gave me a

404
00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:44.759
sense of empowerment.

405
00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:46.920
So then I wasn't ambivalent.

406
00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:49.319
It was a lot of my own individual work, and

407
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:51.680
now I have a choice. And then you get to

408
00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:55.960
make decisions based on empowerment or choices based on feeling

409
00:21:55.960 --> 00:21:59.359
empowered versus ambivalent, which you don't know where to go.

410
00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:02.000
And still you know what it takes. This is the

411
00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:02.799
latest research.

412
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:06.880
Seven to ten years of being in misery to reach

413
00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:10.319
out for counseling, seven to ten years. Imagine what your

414
00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:13.519
little body does. Seven to ten years of being miserable

415
00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:16.920
or ambivalent. You just start to feel you lose any

416
00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:19.720
sense of agency and I'm just going to accept it

417
00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:23.240
is what it is. So for me, it's very much

418
00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:28.400
an individual like how do I get more empowered so

419
00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:30.839
I can make a choice that feels more clear to me?

420
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:34.000
And then right there's tons of books and podcasts and

421
00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:37.319
just the rain protocol for me is I mean I

422
00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:40.720
didn't necessarily, I mean I still do weekly therapy.

423
00:22:40.839 --> 00:22:42.599
I always will, but.

424
00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:46.400
Just having that by myself in the bedroom, listening Toatara

425
00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:49.960
Brock's voice like that was enough for me to soften

426
00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:53.039
inward and be like okay, like EJ's not a monster,

427
00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:58.039
but I feel unsafe around him, I don't know, and

428
00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:00.279
then you want to have a partner that if you

429
00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:05.519
have someone that's consistently not taking any accountability, like now

430
00:23:05.559 --> 00:23:08.599
it's toxic. Now that just doesn't feel good. And I'm

431
00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:11.599
like a healer and I'm a people pleaser. So I

432
00:23:12.119 --> 00:23:15.279
used to stay in those relationships because I'm like, oh,

433
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:19.400
like they'll get better. I'm like, like I would overfunction

434
00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:21.920
at every level. But again, it was once I started

435
00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:23.839
to do a lot of the individual work, I just

436
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:26.599
felt really empowered that whatever choice I made, I would

437
00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:27.440
be okay no.

438
00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:30.039
Matter what it does, sound like it all really starts

439
00:23:30.039 --> 00:23:34.359
with like, regardless of your whatever your personal history, is

440
00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:39.920
what you said before about cultivating safety within yourself and

441
00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:44.160
not looking outside for somebody else to create that or

442
00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:46.319
do whatever it is that you personally feel like you

443
00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:49.519
need for them to do. Like that's a starting point

444
00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:50.519
for anybody, isn't it.

445
00:23:51.319 --> 00:23:55.200
Yes, it's just hard because we like instant gratification and

446
00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:58.200
to feel like taken care of by our other person,

447
00:23:58.279 --> 00:24:01.119
and so when you have to do that work, it's

448
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:04.759
more delayed gratification, but it's so worth it. It's freedom

449
00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:09.839
because and here's another thing, right, I love statistics. First

450
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:13.519
divorce rate right now is forty nine point three percent,

451
00:24:13.960 --> 00:24:18.480
Second time married is sixty seven percent, Third marriage is

452
00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:19.960
seventy four percent.

453
00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:21.359
It follows you.

454
00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:26.039
You could marry the exact opposite and your stuff will

455
00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:29.440
follow you. So doing the work, regardless of whatever relationship

456
00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:32.240
you're in right now is so worth it. So you

457
00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:37.640
don't repeat those steps. You don't repeat those unconscious attachments.

458
00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:38.319
Shall I say?

459
00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:41.119
We don't get better at marriage the more times we

460
00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:41.480
do it.

461
00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:43.880
No, And it's like, I mean we have people like

462
00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:46.200
I married the exact opposite person.

463
00:24:46.279 --> 00:24:47.640
How is this happening again?

464
00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:51.039
And then those people feel like they're uniquely broken. I'm like, no, no,

465
00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:54.480
look at the statistics right you just you know, we

466
00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:57.519
want to run from triggers and we want to be like, no,

467
00:24:57.599 --> 00:24:58.640
this is a bad situation.

468
00:24:58.680 --> 00:24:59.480
We shouldn't be in it now.

469
00:24:59.559 --> 00:25:02.640
Yes, our some unsafe situations that you do need to

470
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:04.880
make yourself safe and get out of there. Trust me,

471
00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:09.400
we have those too, But like it is so important

472
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:10.480
to stay.

473
00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:13.440
With uncomfortable and learn from it. And we have.

474
00:25:13.559 --> 00:25:16.119
This big chalkboard right when you walk into our lobby

475
00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:19.759
and it says, our partner is our greatest teacher, be

476
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:23.799
patient for the lessons. This is the one person that

477
00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:26.319
will trigger all of your shit that you don't even

478
00:25:26.359 --> 00:25:29.440
know about. But it's like you don't want to stay

479
00:25:29.480 --> 00:25:33.759
around for it because it's really annoying. Yeah, but if

480
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:36.920
you really sit with it, I say, guys, like EJ's

481
00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:39.240
in my blind spot. He's going to tell me when

482
00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:42.480
I can't, you know, see something, because I trust that

483
00:25:42.519 --> 00:25:44.720
he has the best interest.

484
00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:46.200
For me, like he wants me to be happy.

485
00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:47.359
Yeah.

486
00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:49.640
So when we usually kind of say it in that way,

487
00:25:49.720 --> 00:25:52.640
it's like, Okay, I'm willing to be uncomfortable for like

488
00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:53.319
six months.

489
00:25:53.319 --> 00:25:56.079
You guys, okay, make be longer than that, but you

490
00:25:56.119 --> 00:25:56.440
never know.

491
00:25:57.480 --> 00:26:00.559
You mentioned the attachment theory infolms of the work that

492
00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:04.400
you do, which is obviously great. I mean out there,

493
00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:07.680
just in general on social media now, there's loads of

494
00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:10.119
people who are talking about, oh I'm an avoidant, or

495
00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:12.880
if you're in a relationship with it with an anxious

496
00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:17.720
or you know, people are talking about attachment out there.

497
00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:21.640
There is this kind of preconception. I guess that if

498
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:24.519
you're avoidant, you're probably going to hook up with somebody

499
00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:28.319
who's anxious, and that's a disaster. Is it possible for

500
00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:32.079
people who have these attachment styles based on the early

501
00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:35.160
history to make it work. Like if they are one

502
00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:39.200
of those couples anxious, avoidant, you're triggering me every time

503
00:26:39.240 --> 00:26:41.880
we have a conflict. Is their hope for those people?

504
00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:43.119
It is like.

505
00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:49.319
Again, secure attachment, right, is what our hope is for

506
00:26:49.400 --> 00:26:52.960
all humans. Secure attachment is I can be mean no

507
00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:56.720
matter what, and I still am lovable and I'm still.

508
00:26:56.559 --> 00:26:57.880
I have a sense of belonging.

509
00:26:58.200 --> 00:27:00.920
So with all my imperfection, it's like we can be

510
00:27:01.079 --> 00:27:04.400
each other whoever. That is all the good, all the bad,

511
00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:07.599
and we are still loved. So that is the hope.51200:27:07.640 --> 00:27:11.119



And the interesting that happens cast is that when we51300:27:11.200 --> 00:27:15.319



start doing all of this attachment work with couples at51400:27:15.319 --> 00:27:19.920



an individual level, but they're together, most people have never51500:27:20.000 --> 00:27:23.079



had any secure attachments ever, so they.51600:27:22.920 --> 00:27:24.640



Don't even know what it feels like.51700:27:25.640 --> 00:27:29.640



So when we start to build, oh, most of our51800:27:29.680 --> 00:27:36.160



couples leave our center with a secure attachment coming from disorganized, avoiding, anxious,51900:27:36.200 --> 00:27:36.720



you name it.52000:27:37.200 --> 00:27:37.960



I've got all of them.52100:27:38.000 --> 00:27:40.359



I've got the disorganized, I've got the anxious, I got52200:27:40.359 --> 00:27:43.240



the I mean. I don't like to label one thing,52300:27:43.799 --> 00:27:48.359



but The idea is that when you're building secure attachment,52400:27:48.559 --> 00:27:51.119



I can be whoever it is I need to be,52500:27:51.240 --> 00:27:54.039



an EJ will still love me and even though when52600:27:54.079 --> 00:27:56.799



times are hard, there's no threat that he'll leave me52700:27:56.799 --> 00:27:58.039



because I'm a bad person.52800:27:58.839 --> 00:27:59.839



Like, we just build this.52900:28:00.079 --> 00:28:04.160



It's like a trust right that should be built between53000:28:04.440 --> 00:28:09.240



infant and caregiver. Right, But if you have an inconsistent53100:28:09.319 --> 00:28:12.160



caregiver who let's just say, has a drinking problem or53200:28:12.279 --> 00:28:16.400



mental health issues, right, you get this inconsistent caring. So53300:28:16.480 --> 00:28:21.559



that is what develops in secure attachment. Whatever that insecurity is,53400:28:21.599 --> 00:28:23.640



it could be avoidant, it could be anxious. So when53500:28:23.680 --> 00:28:27.000



you actually can build trust that no matter what happens,53600:28:27.039 --> 00:28:30.559



this person will consistently try to meet your needs and53700:28:30.599 --> 00:28:35.039



love you, it's everything. And you'll see couples hugging in53800:28:35.079 --> 00:28:37.720



our parking lot. We live near our center, so I53900:28:37.799 --> 00:28:40.000



will wear open seven days a week and I see54000:28:40.039 --> 00:28:43.359



couples hugging each other. I was like, Oh, that's happening.54100:28:43.480 --> 00:28:47.599



They're building their secure attachment, Like it's beautiful to see.54200:28:47.799 --> 00:28:53.240



And yes, do anxious and avoidant hookups very naturally, for sure,54300:28:53.759 --> 00:28:57.279



but that just means they have the best ability to54400:28:57.519 --> 00:29:01.319



trigger each other to then develop the secure attachment.54500:29:02.400 --> 00:29:04.400



But they look at it in the wrong way.54600:29:04.519 --> 00:29:06.960



They see this person as the person as the source54700:29:06.960 --> 00:29:10.240



that they're suffering. Why don't you see this person as54800:29:10.240 --> 00:29:11.680



the source of your growth?54900:29:11.920 --> 00:29:13.039



I love that.55000:29:13.920 --> 00:29:18.599



So what you just said was, if you end up55100:29:18.640 --> 00:29:22.240



with somebody who really triggers you, you could potentially you55200:29:22.240 --> 00:29:27.240



could reframe this to the perfect opportunity for your own55300:29:27.319 --> 00:29:28.119



growth and healing.55400:29:28.960 --> 00:29:33.400



Absolutely, if it's physically safe, right, emotionally safe, Like that's55500:29:33.440 --> 00:29:37.839



the thing. You There are some toxic relationships out there,55600:29:37.839 --> 00:29:42.319



and there are people that you know do have malicious55700:29:42.319 --> 00:29:46.279



intent unfortunately, So I always just want to say, like55800:29:46.400 --> 00:29:49.519



it's you know, but no, for the most part, if55900:29:49.559 --> 00:29:53.200



your partner triggers you, my gosh, Like I get so56000:29:53.279 --> 00:29:55.519



excited when EJ and I trigger each other because we56100:29:55.599 --> 00:29:59.000



always grow from it. And he still wants to avoid conflict,56200:29:59.240 --> 00:30:01.799



Like just yes today, he's like, well, how can we56300:30:01.839 --> 00:30:04.559



make this better? I'm like, no, but look what just happened,56400:30:04.960 --> 00:30:08.240



Like I just learned so much about our trigger that56500:30:08.480 --> 00:30:11.720



just happened while we were barbecuing, And he's like, okay,56600:30:11.720 --> 00:30:13.839



you're right, Like he still wants to go to the56700:30:13.920 --> 00:30:18.160



avoidance piece. But I get so excited because we just56800:30:18.359 --> 00:30:20.640



keep growing from each other. I mean, we still have56900:30:20.759 --> 00:30:23.960



our arguments, we still have our areas of communication where57000:30:24.319 --> 00:30:26.119



we can get better. And so when we do have57100:30:26.200 --> 00:30:29.559



our little fallouts, now, do they happen less yes, are57200:30:29.559 --> 00:30:33.519



they less sentence yes, are they less frequent, yes, But57300:30:33.640 --> 00:30:35.880



we're still like, we learned a huge thing about our57400:30:35.920 --> 00:30:37.039



relationship yesterday.57500:30:37.599 --> 00:30:41.319



So there's opportunities everywhere if you're open, if you.57600:30:41.319 --> 00:30:43.359



Can be okay with being that. Okay.57700:30:43.559 --> 00:30:45.559



The other thing you said earlier tour was that you57800:30:45.720 --> 00:30:47.799



were always a people pleaser, and so you were the57900:30:47.799 --> 00:30:52.119



one who would in relationships trust that it will get better,58000:30:52.279 --> 00:30:54.440



or try to fix them or try to be the58100:30:54.519 --> 00:30:57.440



right person for them. What advice do you have for58200:30:57.599 --> 00:31:00.079



other people who see themselves in that.58300:31:00.640 --> 00:31:04.119



I love this and this is actually I feel like58400:31:04.160 --> 00:31:05.799



I did in a podcast episode on this.58500:31:05.880 --> 00:31:08.720



But it's called the overfunctioner, right.58600:31:08.160 --> 00:31:14.000



Because people pleasers are overfunctioners. They overfunction in the relationships,58700:31:14.000 --> 00:31:17.440



whether it's with their kids, intimate partners, friends, family, you58800:31:17.519 --> 00:31:20.480



name it. So an overfunctioner is this. I want them58900:31:20.519 --> 00:31:22.519



to be happy, I want them to be okay. So59000:31:22.599 --> 00:31:24.960



I'm going to do whatever it takes to make sure59100:31:25.680 --> 00:31:30.200



everything's good. Well, when I first started learning this term,59200:31:30.319 --> 00:31:34.359



right after I was overwhelmed with the kids. My therapist59300:31:34.440 --> 00:31:36.160



is like, oh my god, girl.59400:31:36.079 --> 00:31:39.640



You over a function in every role. I'm like, why,59500:31:39.720 --> 00:31:40.480



what does that mean?59600:31:41.359 --> 00:31:44.279



I was like getting gifts for Eja's mom a Mother's59700:31:44.359 --> 00:31:46.720



Day and all the birthdays, and I'm doing all the59800:31:46.799 --> 00:31:51.200



homework with my step boys and I'm like, isn't that59900:31:51.400 --> 00:31:55.119



just normal? Like but other people weren't doing it and60000:31:55.160 --> 00:31:57.359



they were like and my therapist was like, no, dear,60100:31:57.599 --> 00:32:01.039



like you've got you have to have bound for yourself,60200:32:01.680 --> 00:32:02.720



like you, this is.60300:32:02.680 --> 00:32:05.960



Not your job. That's not your role to.60400:32:06.119 --> 00:32:09.400



Like make sure everything is always taken care of.60500:32:09.440 --> 00:32:12.799



And I was like, what again had been learning?60600:32:12.799 --> 00:32:15.160



I'd been taking care of my sister, Like we started60700:32:15.200 --> 00:32:17.559



working when we were eight, just to my food for60800:32:17.640 --> 00:32:20.640



ourselves and I would like go mop floors and then60900:32:20.640 --> 00:32:23.240



I go by us hot dogs at the seven eleven.61000:32:23.799 --> 00:32:26.440



Like I overfunctioned from a young age just to make61100:32:26.480 --> 00:32:29.400



sure we survived. So that was one thing, but I61200:32:29.440 --> 00:32:31.599



didn't know that I could let go of that role61300:32:32.359 --> 00:32:35.039



when I was an adult. So here's what happens, and61400:32:35.079 --> 00:32:36.839



this is how because I work with a lot of61500:32:36.880 --> 00:32:40.279



people pleasers. If I'm going to overfunction, let's just say61600:32:40.319 --> 00:32:43.160



for my daughter and help her with her math homework61700:32:43.200 --> 00:32:45.359



and sit beside her and make she make sure she61800:32:45.400 --> 00:32:49.799



gets all of the ones correct. She will never learn61900:32:50.359 --> 00:32:53.079



how to handle it herself. And now I'm being a62000:32:53.079 --> 00:32:56.839



disservice because I'm actually not helping her grow and I'm62100:32:56.839 --> 00:33:00.799



not letting her be uncomfortable and I'm not letting her figure.62200:33:00.359 --> 00:33:02.880



It out herself or with e J.62300:33:03.119 --> 00:33:06.279



If I'm like the one constantly getting all of the62400:33:06.400 --> 00:33:10.119



Mother's Day gifts birthday gifts, like dude, that's not my job.62500:33:10.160 --> 00:33:13.720



I love your mom, but like if I keep doing that,62600:33:13.839 --> 00:33:15.880



I'm not going to let you know that that's this62700:33:16.160 --> 00:33:18.799



kind of a responsibility you should have. Like it's you62800:33:18.839 --> 00:33:21.119



know what I mean, that's like a small thing. I62900:33:21.240 --> 00:33:23.720



overfunctioned him many different ways. I took on all the63000:33:23.759 --> 00:33:25.240



intimacy guilds, all of it.63100:33:25.440 --> 00:33:29.279



But the biggest thing here is when you overfunction, you63200:33:29.480 --> 00:33:34.119



actually it's an unconscious mistrust that the other person can't63300:33:34.119 --> 00:33:38.079



do it, and the relationship will fall apart, especially in63400:33:38.079 --> 00:33:39.160



an intimate relationship.63500:33:39.200 --> 00:33:40.599



I was like, oh my god, if I don't do this.63600:33:40.880 --> 00:33:43.279



If I don't buy the groceries, well everybody will starve.63700:33:44.400 --> 00:33:47.279



Well that's not true. I just didn't trust it. Eaj63800:33:47.480 --> 00:33:49.839



could do it, so I would do it for him.63900:33:50.359 --> 00:33:53.759



And now I learned that was an overfunctioning room. And64000:33:53.839 --> 00:33:56.359



he's awesome at getting groceries when he needs to. He'll64100:33:56.359 --> 00:33:58.920



mess it up still sometimes, but that's okay. So we64200:33:59.000 --> 00:34:01.720



had to give each other that chance to like make64300:34:01.839 --> 00:34:05.920



mistakes and you know, let go of that control because64400:34:05.960 --> 00:34:07.480



it's actually freedom.64500:34:07.119 --> 00:34:07.599



Now for me.64600:34:07.680 --> 00:34:09.480



I have so much more space now that I'm not64700:34:09.559 --> 00:34:12.559



people pleasing or overfunctioning. Though I still have the tendency,64800:34:13.039 --> 00:34:17.119



I'm aware of what that tendency feels like. It's like, oh, oh,64900:34:17.199 --> 00:34:20.159



I've got a it's like a you know. And then65000:34:20.199 --> 00:34:22.840



I'm like, oh no, that's that's not mine. I can65100:34:22.880 --> 00:34:25.719



be of support if you need help, ask me. It's65200:34:25.760 --> 00:34:29.440



such a huge shift. That is like my when I'm65300:34:29.480 --> 00:34:32.119



doing a lot of my counseling with my individuals, like65400:34:32.199 --> 00:34:35.079



that's my jam right there, like working with people pleasers65500:34:35.079 --> 00:34:38.320



and overfunctioners, and when they they realize they don't have65600:34:38.360 --> 00:34:40.559



to take on so much, it's like, oh my gosh, Tara,65700:34:40.599 --> 00:34:43.000



I have my space back, I've got my freedom back.65800:34:43.039 --> 00:34:45.559



I'm like, I know, I didn't even know it was there.65900:34:46.960 --> 00:34:50.119



It's uncomfortable to run. It's for you to have to66000:34:50.199 --> 00:34:52.639



let go of that control. Like what you said before,66100:34:52.679 --> 00:34:55.199



it's that's staying with that discomfort.66200:34:55.599 --> 00:35:00.079



It was so hard. But once you see the.66300:35:01.960 --> 00:35:06.639



Impact from it and that your children are actually okay,66400:35:07.360 --> 00:35:12.960



and that your husband actually can handle it, Like with66500:35:13.239 --> 00:35:16.400



each experience, it gets easier and easier. But in the66600:35:16.559 --> 00:35:19.280



very beginning, like when my therapist said, Tara, you can't66700:35:19.280 --> 00:35:21.639



sit and do the homework with the kids anymore, I was.66800:35:21.559 --> 00:35:25.719



Like, ah, okay, they're gonna fail. Well, guess what. They66900:35:25.760 --> 00:35:28.719



have maintained their nineties.67000:35:28.320 --> 00:35:32.880



Club status and one of the hardest elementary schools in Tucson.67100:35:34.119 --> 00:35:37.199



I have not sat with them with the homework assignment67200:35:37.239 --> 00:35:41.280



and they're in fifth grade since third grade. Cast guess67300:35:41.360 --> 00:35:44.280



what freedom for me? At night, I'm watching my reality shows.67400:35:44.639 --> 00:35:46.039



You guys, go do your homework with you.67500:35:46.519 --> 00:35:49.719



It's so nice, but it is hard at first, But67600:35:49.760 --> 00:35:54.800



then when you see the outcome of it, it's like, Okay, awesome,67700:35:54.960 --> 00:35:56.400



we got this now.67800:35:56.400 --> 00:35:57.840



I still did have to.67900:35:57.719 --> 00:36:00.039



Do with the mother's Day stuff for you, Jay, But68000:36:01.119 --> 00:36:05.079



I get that that's just not his instinct, like.68100:36:05.039 --> 00:36:07.880



He will he went to get me a Mother's daycard and.68200:36:07.840 --> 00:36:11.639



Forgot his own mom. I was like, Honnie, Like he's like, dear,68300:36:11.760 --> 00:36:14.039



I just don't think of it. And so I'm helping him,68400:36:14.400 --> 00:36:17.960



but I'm not overfunctioning, and that there's a difference. Yeah,68500:36:18.000 --> 00:36:21.119



functioning is like I have this most trust.68600:36:21.360 --> 00:36:22.360



Supporting him is like.68700:36:22.320 --> 00:36:25.880



Oh, that's just not his wheelhouse, Like he would not68800:36:26.400 --> 00:36:28.719



remember to probably get me a Mother's Day card if68900:36:28.760 --> 00:36:29.360



I wasn't.69000:36:29.199 --> 00:36:31.960



Like, hey, honey, it's not day tomorrow, Gotta go to.69100:36:31.880 --> 00:36:34.679



Walgreenson And that's the key ride. It's not being able69200:36:34.719 --> 00:36:39.039



to discern for yourself where the line is, what's what's69300:36:39.559 --> 00:36:43.000



motivating this behavioral or what's driving it? And that's I69400:36:43.000 --> 00:36:45.719



guess for every individual, they're going to have to figure69500:36:45.760 --> 00:36:48.599



that bit out for themselves. The thing that you said69600:36:48.599 --> 00:36:50.840



before that I wanted to pick up on was, Okay,69700:36:50.840 --> 00:36:55.400



so big issue in couples is no intimacy, and you69800:36:55.559 --> 00:36:59.159



experienced it. I know so many couples who are there69900:36:59.199 --> 00:37:02.119



as well, and and we'll talk about that as an issue.70000:37:02.199 --> 00:37:04.800



But what you just said about intimacy guilt that you70100:37:05.000 --> 00:37:08.199



carried all of that guilt. Is it your experience that70200:37:08.199 --> 00:37:11.920



that's a kind of a woman thing that women feel70300:37:11.960 --> 00:37:14.280



all of the guilt And is that just a gendered70400:37:14.559 --> 00:37:18.079



like an expectation or a stereotype. I'm curious to know70500:37:18.559 --> 00:37:19.400



in your experience.70600:37:20.199 --> 00:37:25.960



From my experience, there are many women that feel the70700:37:26.000 --> 00:37:29.239



exact same way I do. So I have to think70800:37:29.480 --> 00:37:32.079



I'm just not alone in this, and I'm just kind70900:37:32.119 --> 00:37:36.039



of you know, making this more general. But for men,71000:37:36.719 --> 00:37:40.519



that friskiness in their body, I call it friskiness, like71100:37:40.679 --> 00:37:44.840



it feels like it comes easier, like even when they're young,71200:37:44.920 --> 00:37:47.280



like I, you know, when I'm in middle school and stuff,71300:37:47.280 --> 00:37:50.039



I'm not master reading and having to like have this71400:37:50.159 --> 00:37:54.039



release and all of that. I just liked going on71500:37:54.159 --> 00:37:57.320



dates and you know, getting taken out.71600:37:57.159 --> 00:37:57.960



And stuff like that.71700:37:58.000 --> 00:38:01.079



Like my thing has always been more emotional intimacy and71800:38:01.119 --> 00:38:04.599



stuff like that. But even like after the twins were born,71900:38:04.599 --> 00:38:07.280



like my sex drive went to nothing, and I had72000:38:07.360 --> 00:38:09.960



been like more playful and stuff. But what happened is72100:38:10.000 --> 00:38:13.760



like Eja, he's consistently frisky, Like he could be frisky72200:38:13.760 --> 00:38:16.719



at six am, at three in the morning, like it72300:38:16.719 --> 00:38:20.079



doesn't he could make it happen anytime, anywhere. And then72400:38:20.159 --> 00:38:24.360



I started to say no a lot, or just like72500:38:24.519 --> 00:38:27.119



avoid it at all cost, or even get in fights72600:38:27.119 --> 00:38:27.719



on date.72700:38:27.599 --> 00:38:29.000



Night because I'd be like, oh god, I don't want72800:38:29.000 --> 00:38:30.679



to do those or do all.72900:38:30.639 --> 00:38:33.960



These unconscious things because I feel I would feel bad,73000:38:34.280 --> 00:38:36.199



like oh God, he's going to want it and I73100:38:36.239 --> 00:38:37.480



don't want it, and I know that I.73200:38:37.480 --> 00:38:39.480



Don't want to give in because that's bad.73300:38:40.119 --> 00:38:42.519



So that's when like guilt started, right, So then I73400:38:42.559 --> 00:38:46.079



would just start to avoid it. And here's the biggest73500:38:46.079 --> 00:38:48.440



thing too, Like eg and I didn't talk about it. Well,73600:38:48.480 --> 00:38:50.920



couples don't talk about it. They will come in and73700:38:50.920 --> 00:38:53.079



one of their biggest goals is intimacy, and like, when73800:38:53.119 --> 00:38:53.800



is the last time.73900:38:53.639 --> 00:38:54.559



You guys talked about it?74000:38:54.639 --> 00:38:57.519



Well, we don't why because it's just not happening. We74100:38:57.599 --> 00:38:59.199



just wanted to happen. But how are you going to74200:38:59.760 --> 00:39:03.400



have impact you? And if you're not talking about it,74300:39:03.440 --> 00:39:05.039



how are you going to make it different? Right, So74400:39:05.119 --> 00:39:10.840



we started to recognize there's this unrealistic expectation that intimacy74500:39:10.840 --> 00:39:12.519



will just go back to the way.74600:39:12.360 --> 00:39:14.360



It was in the beginning of the relationship.74700:39:15.199 --> 00:39:18.639



No, that's not true, because what happens is that intimacy74800:39:18.679 --> 00:39:22.440



guilt is a sort of grief. Like I was greeting,74900:39:22.480 --> 00:39:26.719



but I didn't know that I lost any desire to75000:39:26.840 --> 00:39:29.599



be frisky and playful with my husband because now I'm75100:39:29.639 --> 00:39:35.599



keeping these humans alive, feeding them, I'm con constantly cleaning75200:39:35.639 --> 00:39:37.199



and laundry like never.75300:39:37.119 --> 00:39:41.159



Knew there was so much laundry. Kids, My god, but75400:39:41.199 --> 00:39:41.920



it's a lot.75500:39:42.559 --> 00:39:45.639



It's a lot, and so I was greeting it, but75600:39:45.760 --> 00:39:49.480



I didn't know that the guilt was grief. I just75700:39:49.519 --> 00:39:53.480



saw EJ get more frustrated and then more shut down.75800:39:53.920 --> 00:39:56.199



And we see this in our couples, right, So then75900:39:56.239 --> 00:40:00.440



it just becomes a powerless feeling for both. One of76000:40:00.480 --> 00:40:05.880



our highest two highest podcast episodes are Low Frisky and76100:40:05.960 --> 00:40:09.199



High Frisky. EJ talks about what it's like to be76200:40:09.239 --> 00:40:12.599



the high frisky partner in the relationship. I talk it's76300:40:12.639 --> 00:40:15.719



about to be the low frisky, the low desire partner,76400:40:16.199 --> 00:40:20.880



and guess what, both places feel powerless because the low76500:40:21.000 --> 00:40:25.360



frisky partner holds all the control. I say when I76600:40:25.519 --> 00:40:29.639



say if right, that's awful. That's like not a great76700:40:29.639 --> 00:40:33.559



place to be. But the high frisky partner now feels76800:40:33.559 --> 00:40:36.239



like they have all the control. Right that the lower part,76900:40:36.480 --> 00:40:39.320



the low frisky partner, has all the control, and now77000:40:39.639 --> 00:40:43.280



the high frisky like, oh, I'm just being punished. Like77100:40:43.599 --> 00:40:49.559



it turns into such a toxic, tense energy when both77200:40:49.599 --> 00:40:53.079



of them are actually feeling powerless in it. They both77300:40:53.239 --> 00:40:55.679



want to connect, but they don't know how to because77400:40:55.679 --> 00:40:59.320



they haven't talked about it and both are grieving. High77500:40:59.360 --> 00:41:01.360



frisky is like, oh God, I miss my partner. I77600:41:01.400 --> 00:41:04.480



miss touching them, I miss being close to them. I77700:41:04.599 --> 00:41:07.519



missed that one unique thing I do with them and77800:41:07.559 --> 00:41:11.800



not anybody else. And the other partner is suffering alone.77900:41:12.079 --> 00:41:15.920



God I missed those feelings of desire. God, I just78000:41:16.079 --> 00:41:18.159



missed the feeling of being who I used to be78100:41:18.239 --> 00:41:21.320



in the body I used to have. And so once78200:41:21.400 --> 00:41:25.280



we start to process grief with the intimacy, it takes78300:41:25.280 --> 00:41:27.480



on a whole new outlet because now couples are willing78400:41:27.519 --> 00:41:30.639



to talk about it, knowing that they're both in a78500:41:30.639 --> 00:41:34.760



place of powerlessness. But yes, it's usually that the woman78600:41:34.840 --> 00:41:40.360



feels intimacy guilt, the man feels frustrated that she's punishing him.78700:41:40.599 --> 00:41:43.039



This is in like, you know, heterosexual relationships.78800:41:43.199 --> 00:41:46.679



Yeah, and then that last the people will We have78900:41:46.800 --> 00:41:49.360



had couples that haven't had intimacy in twenty years.79000:41:49.840 --> 00:41:51.679



Oh my god, twenty years.79100:41:52.119 --> 00:41:54.480



There was one couple that had never had it and79200:41:54.519 --> 00:41:58.480



they had been married, not even on their honeymoon. Really, Yes,79300:42:00.079 --> 00:42:04.840



we have seen the gamut of like intimacy issues and79400:42:04.880 --> 00:42:06.960



the biggest thing we noticed is they didn't know how79500:42:07.000 --> 00:42:11.000



to talk about it because it's super vulnerable. Yeah, and79600:42:11.039 --> 00:42:14.480



it's the most raw you could be with anybody. And79700:42:14.800 --> 00:42:17.880



when we again, when we just when we identify it79800:42:17.920 --> 00:42:21.400



as grief and powerlessness and that both people feel alone79900:42:21.440 --> 00:42:24.199



in it, then we can start to make some sort80000:42:24.239 --> 00:42:28.519



of agreement. And we do a ton of safety containers80100:42:28.559 --> 00:42:33.320



around intimacy for couples in the beginning, because if let's80200:42:33.320 --> 00:42:36.199



just say your husband comes in and smacks your butt, immediately,80300:42:37.000 --> 00:42:39.000



the wife, who maybe is the low risk people will80400:42:39.000 --> 00:42:42.840



be like a freeze, like, oh no, what's happening. So80500:42:42.920 --> 00:42:45.280



we say, okay, you guys are going to have safety containers,80600:42:45.360 --> 00:42:50.320



like butt touching means just that that there's no expectation80700:42:50.719 --> 00:42:53.519



or anything around that, because you've got to get your80800:42:53.559 --> 00:42:57.280



nervous system now recognizing that they this person is safe80900:42:57.840 --> 00:43:02.960



and that hand gestures you know are safe and that81000:43:03.039 --> 00:43:06.480



you guys can work within these containers to then go81100:43:06.679 --> 00:43:09.000



you know, because a lot of couples hurt each other81200:43:09.039 --> 00:43:11.719



with intimacy, like they really do. They weaponize it with81300:43:11.800 --> 00:43:14.440



each other, you know, and then when there's infidelity. Room81400:43:14.599 --> 00:43:18.360



with so much infidelity like whatever, you know, the perpetrator81500:43:18.280 --> 00:43:20.320



or the person that you know had to go through81600:43:20.599 --> 00:43:23.960



the infidelity. On the other hand, like when they're having sex,81700:43:24.000 --> 00:43:24.679



that's where a lot.81800:43:24.599 --> 00:43:27.280



Of flashbacks come back and trauma and like.81900:43:27.239 --> 00:43:29.840



So there's just so much safety containers we put in82000:43:29.880 --> 00:43:32.920



for intimacy, but they work because you have to do it.82100:43:32.920 --> 00:43:33.679



It's boundaried.82200:43:34.760 --> 00:43:39.679



Yeah, So going back to the couples who are taking82300:43:40.159 --> 00:43:42.760



infidelity off the table for a minute, so couples who82400:43:43.039 --> 00:43:45.719



want to get that back, because what you just said82500:43:45.760 --> 00:43:46.679



was an important point too.82600:43:46.719 --> 00:43:48.719



It gets the point in relationships. I've been there in82700:43:48.719 --> 00:43:52.320



my own relationship where I almost you would avoid any82800:43:52.440 --> 00:43:55.119



kind of dog don't even hug me, because in my mind,82900:43:55.159 --> 00:43:56.440



as soon as you hug me, or as soon as83000:43:56.480 --> 00:43:57.880



I hug you, or as soon as I show you83100:43:57.920 --> 00:44:00.000



any affection, you're going to take that as a sign83200:44:00.159 --> 00:44:03.079



that it's on. And if it's not on and I'm83300:44:03.079 --> 00:44:05.280



not interested, then I'm not going to give you any sign.83400:44:05.360 --> 00:44:07.400



So then the terms. Then there's not even there's not83500:44:07.440 --> 00:44:09.400



just no sex, there's not even I don't want to83600:44:09.599 --> 00:44:11.960



be near you or give you any kind of indication,83700:44:12.519 --> 00:44:14.079



which is just so self defeating.83800:44:14.559 --> 00:44:15.800



Yeah, so with.83900:44:15.880 --> 00:44:19.480



Your couples, is the work to be done in like84000:44:19.679 --> 00:44:22.840



creating those smaller Yeah, okay, you can hug and you84100:44:22.880 --> 00:44:25.679



can hold hands, but there's no more expectation and kind84200:44:25.679 --> 00:44:30.239



of build back to feeling safe just being connected without84300:44:30.239 --> 00:44:31.599



the sex before you get to that bit.84400:44:32.119 --> 00:44:36.039



Everybody is so different, but most couples we've worked with,84500:44:36.159 --> 00:44:39.639



especially when they're dealing with, you know, painful intimacy experiences84600:44:39.679 --> 00:44:42.440



with each other, as you have to have containers and84700:44:42.599 --> 00:44:47.119



boundaries because like, let's just say, for example, like this84800:44:47.320 --> 00:44:50.000



was just an argument Egen they had like when more84900:44:50.159 --> 00:44:51.559



not having sex.85000:44:52.280 --> 00:44:54.719



Eg will point that out right like.85100:44:54.800 --> 00:44:57.760



Oh, a couple of weeks and then I'm like, okay,85200:44:58.039 --> 00:45:00.760



we have here it goes again like oh there's my girls.85300:45:00.800 --> 00:45:03.159



I know what that is, and I'm like, Eja, let85400:45:03.159 --> 00:45:06.239



me just ask you this. Why is it like when85500:45:06.559 --> 00:45:10.199



sex isn't happening. You're aware of that, but we haven't85600:45:10.239 --> 00:45:13.599



had a date night in two months, I said, So85700:45:13.679 --> 00:45:15.760



I've got to let you know what would feel safe85800:45:15.760 --> 00:45:18.239



to me. Is I get it. It hasn't happened sex85900:45:18.320 --> 00:45:21.480



physical sex has not happened in two weeks, but we86000:45:21.559 --> 00:45:25.239



haven't had a date night in over two months, whatever86100:45:25.280 --> 00:45:26.719



it is, And I've got to let you know, like86200:45:26.960 --> 00:45:32.599



I need the emotional intimacy, I need date nights with you,86300:45:32.719 --> 00:45:35.079



Like I can't just have sex with you at three86400:45:35.159 --> 00:45:37.039



in the morning and not have had And he's like,86500:45:37.079 --> 00:45:40.719



you're right, Tarah. He's like, we are not cultivating priority86600:45:40.719 --> 00:45:43.760



of our relationship and I am just looking at the86700:45:43.800 --> 00:45:46.320



frequency that we haven't had it in two weeks. So86800:45:46.440 --> 00:45:49.800



it's those kind of conversations where it's like, I'm willing86900:45:49.840 --> 00:45:52.039



to have this conversation with you like that we haven't87000:45:52.039 --> 00:45:54.079



had sex in two weeks, but I also need you87100:45:54.119 --> 00:45:56.039



to be willing to be like, oh, we also haven't87200:45:56.039 --> 00:45:58.719



had a date night in two months, because I'm not87300:45:58.760 --> 00:46:00.639



going to be it's not going to be on me87400:46:01.920 --> 00:46:04.719



that we just haven't had the sex, the physical act87500:46:04.760 --> 00:46:08.559



of it, like it's other things too, And so having87600:46:08.599 --> 00:46:12.559



that type of communication with the other person around like okay,87700:46:12.599 --> 00:46:15.280



so let's just say the person who's got higher frisky,87800:46:15.639 --> 00:46:17.719



their focus is all like always.87900:46:17.360 --> 00:46:19.360



Like, oh my gosh, can we have sex. I'm going88000:46:19.400 --> 00:46:20.960



to have sex. We're going to have sex. We can't88100:46:20.960 --> 00:46:21.400



have sex.88200:46:22.400 --> 00:46:25.480



You've got to be able to now generalize that to88300:46:25.639 --> 00:46:29.239



other areas in order to build safety around it for88400:46:29.320 --> 00:46:32.599



them the other person to be like, oh my gosh,88500:46:32.599 --> 00:46:35.599



they are trying in these other ways. Oh look they did.88600:46:36.800 --> 00:46:39.480



We went out to lunch for two hours. We prioritized88700:46:39.480 --> 00:46:43.159



our relationship for these you know, these days, because that88800:46:43.280 --> 00:46:47.880



was really important because you come in with just this one.88900:46:48.760 --> 00:46:50.599



We want to have more sex, we want to feel89000:46:50.599 --> 00:46:53.599



more connected. Well maybe one person does, but what does89100:46:53.599 --> 00:46:54.920



that mean for the other person?89200:46:55.440 --> 00:46:58.400



So we help them both define what that is.89300:46:58.320 --> 00:47:01.119



For them and then how to get to these kind89400:47:01.199 --> 00:47:06.639



of agreements that would cultivate the deepest intimacy possible.89500:47:07.039 --> 00:47:08.719



And everyone's very different.89600:47:09.119 --> 00:47:12.119



Everyone is very different, right, And it's not about low89700:47:12.159 --> 00:47:14.880



sex drive and high sex drive because those like even89800:47:15.360 --> 00:47:18.320



they can change throughout transitions in lifetime.89900:47:18.719 --> 00:47:22.159



If it's about having healthy communication about what it's like.90000:47:22.840 --> 00:47:25.360



If it's not happening, or if it's happening.90100:47:25.039 --> 00:47:26.880



Too much, or if like we have people that hide90200:47:26.920 --> 00:47:30.320



in the closet to get undressed into their pajamas because90300:47:30.320 --> 00:47:33.679



they don't want their partner seeing them and thinking that90400:47:33.800 --> 00:47:35.639



like sex. Well, no, you have to be able to90500:47:35.679 --> 00:47:36.920



be like, hey, I just want to let you know90600:47:36.960 --> 00:47:39.320



I have that urge to go dress in the closet90700:47:39.840 --> 00:47:42.480



because my anxiety is really high that if I dress90800:47:42.920 --> 00:47:45.440



undressed in front of you, you're going to immediately want90900:47:45.519 --> 00:47:46.440



to just have sex.91000:47:46.960 --> 00:47:49.760



You start with that type of communication and then once.91100:47:49.599 --> 00:47:53.960



You guys both recognize the anxiety around it, it's right.91200:47:54.039 --> 00:47:57.679



It feels unstuck and like you want intimacy to feel91300:47:57.800 --> 00:48:02.360



free and flowing and beautiful, and couples have just made91400:48:02.360 --> 00:48:05.159



it into this big trust me, we've been there, this91500:48:05.239 --> 00:48:06.000



big old.91600:48:06.039 --> 00:48:10.320



Black cloud, and you're just like, no, it's good. Someone's connected.91700:48:10.360 --> 00:48:11.400



You could be with somebody.91800:48:11.440 --> 00:48:13.159



How do we get it back where there's not all91900:48:13.159 --> 00:48:16.679



this pain attached to it? And it's just by talking92000:48:17.239 --> 00:48:20.159



about what the feelings are around it, because then it92100:48:20.199 --> 00:48:24.760



doesn't get held as grief and loneliness and suffering.92200:48:24.239 --> 00:48:26.920



Individually and as much as you said right at the beginning,92300:48:27.039 --> 00:48:30.559



Like couple's counseling is it's not all about just communication92400:48:30.639 --> 00:48:33.039



because there's all this deepest stuff that has to be explored.92500:48:33.440 --> 00:48:36.199



Like at the end of the day, there is stuff92600:48:36.199 --> 00:48:38.039



that needs to be communicated, isn't there. There's a lot of92700:48:38.079 --> 00:48:42.239



conversations in couples that are just not happening. People just92800:48:42.360 --> 00:48:44.840



don't want to cause a conflict, or they don't want92900:48:45.039 --> 00:48:47.079



or they don't know how to say what they want93000:48:47.119 --> 00:48:47.440



to say.93100:48:48.519 --> 00:48:52.000



And it's I mean, oh my gosh, it's so skills based.93200:48:52.519 --> 00:48:55.360



When do we learn When do we learn to talk93300:48:55.400 --> 00:48:57.800



about intimacy and emotional intimacy?93400:48:57.960 --> 00:48:59.960



Like we're not basical and we're learning about that.93500:49:00.280 --> 00:49:02.800



We just learned like sex either do it or don't93600:49:03.119 --> 00:49:05.679



don't and then like don't do it, but then when93700:49:05.719 --> 00:49:08.000



you're in love do it. So now you're like, wait93800:49:08.039 --> 00:49:10.400



a second, I have this like a shameful thing about93900:49:10.679 --> 00:49:13.000



sex is bad, but when you love someone, now it's good.94000:49:13.159 --> 00:49:17.639



Like what no one talks about the skills of what94100:49:17.719 --> 00:49:22.159



it takes to have a healthy, vibrant sex life, emotional94200:49:22.199 --> 00:49:25.719



intimacy connected relationship. And so when couple are like, oh94300:49:25.760 --> 00:49:27.679



my god, we have to plan our intimacy.94400:49:28.239 --> 00:49:29.159



Yeah, you do.94500:49:29.760 --> 00:49:32.960



You have to plan and you have to build skills94600:49:33.360 --> 00:49:35.559



to really have a healthy communication.94700:49:36.199 --> 00:49:37.880



And it's okay.94800:49:37.440 --> 00:49:41.000



Because guess what, nothing's working for you now, so just94900:49:41.119 --> 00:49:43.960



try this. I mean, And that's why, like when I'm95000:49:44.000 --> 00:49:46.599



in session with a couple, I will I will have95100:49:46.719 --> 00:49:49.519



like you know, I'll move into the chair across and95200:49:49.559 --> 00:49:51.119



I'll say, you have to repeat after me.95300:49:51.159 --> 00:49:54.079



I know it sounds clunky. Well, I hear that that95400:49:54.159 --> 00:49:55.519



felt really hard for.95500:49:55.480 --> 00:49:58.480



You, because right they're so used to defending themselves and95600:49:58.480 --> 00:50:00.599



they don't want to hear their partners and so they95700:50:00.639 --> 00:50:04.079



can't validate. And I will do it ten times until95800:50:04.119 --> 00:50:07.639



they get that feeling of what it means to validate.95900:50:08.320 --> 00:50:10.760



I hear that that was really hard.96000:50:11.199 --> 00:50:15.079



Because they won't do it otherwise. So it's that coaching piece.96100:50:15.119 --> 00:50:17.119



It's a skill. And I said, see, I know it96200:50:17.199 --> 00:50:20.320



sounds clunky and you have to repeat after me, and96300:50:20.400 --> 00:50:23.880



it's almost like a coaching session. But that's okay because96400:50:23.880 --> 00:50:26.320



in the moment when you're not here in this session96500:50:26.360 --> 00:50:29.079



and you're at home and your partners comeing to you96600:50:29.119 --> 00:50:31.840



and they are in pain, instead of you being like,96700:50:31.880 --> 00:50:35.719



well I'm in pain too, you're gonna, wow, is there96800:50:35.760 --> 00:50:37.719



anything I can do right now to support you?96900:50:38.320 --> 00:50:39.960



You'll still be able to come back to you.97000:50:39.880 --> 00:50:42.880



Don't worry, but you're going to have that validation piece97100:50:42.920 --> 00:50:45.559



first where they feel heard and sane. It's just we97200:50:45.679 --> 00:50:48.440



don't have the skill to do it. If there is97300:50:48.440 --> 00:50:52.840



something uncomfortable, we try to defend it. Maybe that's not true,97400:50:53.000 --> 00:50:54.000



that's not what I said.97500:50:54.280 --> 00:50:55.760



You are totally wrong.97600:50:56.360 --> 00:50:59.199



It doesn't matter. You say, wow, I hear that. That97700:50:59.320 --> 00:51:02.000



was really pain for you. I'm so sorry what.97800:51:02.159 --> 00:51:03.440



Just happened that.97900:51:03.800 --> 00:51:06.719



That is not a skill humans have, but it is98000:51:06.760 --> 00:51:10.320



a skill we can build along with empathy and compassion.98100:51:10.760 --> 00:51:14.800



And when couples really get that and they stop digging.98200:51:14.480 --> 00:51:17.320



Their heels in that, it's just going to be some miraculous,98300:51:17.519 --> 00:51:21.559



awesome relationship forever with hot sex all the time.98400:51:22.119 --> 00:51:24.519



Like, no, not happening, or there would not be this98500:51:24.639 --> 00:51:29.079



high as a divorce rate. There's something else happening here. Yeah,98600:51:29.119 --> 00:51:29.679



And that's it.98700:51:29.760 --> 00:51:31.519



People don't want to they want they don't want to98800:51:31.559 --> 00:51:34.400



learn the skills. They want to think it just organic.98900:51:34.960 --> 00:51:38.360



But then you ask the question, where did I learn99000:51:38.440 --> 00:51:39.400



healthy communication?99100:51:39.719 --> 00:51:41.480



How do I go deeper with my partner?99200:51:41.800 --> 00:51:44.599



What is emotional intimacy and physical intimacy?99300:51:45.199 --> 00:51:45.679



We don't know.99400:51:46.199 --> 00:51:49.119



I imagine that that is much easier to have those99500:51:49.159 --> 00:51:53.199



conversations with somebody skilled in the room. I mean, I99600:51:53.239 --> 00:51:56.239



know that you have your online program that you sell99700:51:56.280 --> 00:51:58.400



on your website that people can sign up, and that's99800:51:58.400 --> 00:52:00.960



self paced. What's the feedby that you get on that99900:52:01.679 --> 00:52:04.440



people being able to take that and do it themselves100000:52:04.480 --> 00:52:06.760



without having somebody in the room to help.100100:52:07.519 --> 00:52:11.760



So this is really difficult and hard for some couples.100200:52:12.400 --> 00:52:13.320



It's pretty like we.100300:52:13.320 --> 00:52:16.360



Have our videos and everything for the online there are100400:52:16.559 --> 00:52:21.599



some couples that need the third person in the room.100500:52:21.679 --> 00:52:24.039



That's just going to be the objective. So people have100600:52:24.159 --> 00:52:27.159



reached out all over it, like do you and EJ?100700:52:27.920 --> 00:52:30.280



Can you coach us through? Because the intimacy series we100800:52:30.360 --> 00:52:34.480



have it where it's like the communication series is first100900:52:34.559 --> 00:52:36.920



and then the intimacy series and you will see if101000:52:36.960 --> 00:52:41.079



people fall off right in the first intimacy exercise.101100:52:41.599 --> 00:52:43.800



So we open the second company.101200:52:44.119 --> 00:52:47.159



We're our studio is so we can start doing global101300:52:47.199 --> 00:52:50.280



coaching because people are asking for it. But I would101400:52:50.360 --> 00:52:53.960



say so for couples, now I say listen, go talk101500:52:54.000 --> 00:52:57.320



about this piece, like go get a couple's therapist, go101600:52:57.400 --> 00:52:59.960



talk about this piece, what's happening, what's triggering while you101700:53:00.039 --> 00:53:02.719



feel like it's really hard, you know, and we will101800:53:02.760 --> 00:53:04.840



start offering coaching sessions down the road.101900:53:04.840 --> 00:53:06.239



But if you get stuck.102000:53:05.960 --> 00:53:08.440



In it and you feel like you can't move through it,102100:53:08.559 --> 00:53:10.079



that's a very good sign that you.102200:53:10.199 --> 00:53:13.239



Just need someone else in that room or remotely.102300:53:13.239 --> 00:53:17.159



There's great relationship coaches online to help you through it.102400:53:17.199 --> 00:53:20.840



But there I would say, we're really good at saying102500:53:20.920 --> 00:53:24.360



listen this if you are in a lot of pain102600:53:24.519 --> 00:53:25.719



with your partner, like.102700:53:26.000 --> 00:53:28.400



This could actually cause more harm than good.102800:53:28.760 --> 00:53:33.559



Because you don't have that person helping right coach exactly102900:53:33.599 --> 00:53:36.920



how to feel in window of tolerance and emotion regulation.103000:53:37.480 --> 00:53:39.880



But there's some couples that just do it because they103100:53:39.920 --> 00:53:40.199



love it.103200:53:40.239 --> 00:53:42.480



Like the premiere, It'll we have more couples in the103300:53:42.519 --> 00:53:44.280



premiere it are like, oh, we just want to do103400:53:44.320 --> 00:53:44.960



this to know all.103500:53:44.840 --> 00:53:46.159



About each other, you know.103600:53:46.199 --> 00:53:48.760



We try to make it super affordable because that was103700:53:48.880 --> 00:53:51.320



my heart. It started over COVID and then it just103800:53:51.800 --> 00:53:54.760



grew into this at home piece. But yeah, I would103900:53:54.760 --> 00:53:58.679



just say I think couples know if there's that hard104000:53:59.239 --> 00:54:06.320



like feeling of tension, resentment, disdain, dislike. That sounds like104100:54:06.360 --> 00:54:08.719



a good saying that you might need someone to really104200:54:08.760 --> 00:54:13.280



help soften those edges first, whether that's individually or a104300:54:13.400 --> 00:54:14.360



relationship coach.104400:54:14.800 --> 00:54:18.159



Yeah, and before you go, Tara, So you talked about104500:54:18.199 --> 00:54:20.920



starting off with a safe word, and we've talked about,104600:54:21.280 --> 00:54:23.320



you know, attachment and how that plays out, and your104700:54:23.360 --> 00:54:29.760



triggers and cultivating your own practices of self compassion, internal safety,104800:54:29.800 --> 00:54:31.559



all of that. I'm curious to know. So in your104900:54:31.679 --> 00:54:34.599



online program or in your kind of typical every couple105000:54:34.639 --> 00:54:39.000



is different, I know, but in a typical couples counseling process, like,105100:54:39.079 --> 00:54:41.119



what are the kind of key pillars, Like, what are105200:54:41.159 --> 00:54:43.559



the key things that you're going Yeah, you said safe105300:54:43.599 --> 00:54:46.480



word for example, but are they sort of key gills105400:54:46.599 --> 00:54:50.119



or milestones or pillars that are that everybody kind of105500:54:50.159 --> 00:54:53.199



goes through that are sort of the essential processes that105600:54:53.199 --> 00:54:54.239



people need to learn.105700:54:54.440 --> 00:54:56.440



Well, we call it the shift. Oh my god, that's105800:54:56.480 --> 00:54:59.159



such a big question. Sorry, that's huge. Should have started105900:54:59.159 --> 00:55:02.480



with that, like what our couples go through? And I106000:55:02.480 --> 00:55:03.199



feel like it could be.106100:55:03.480 --> 00:55:06.320



That's so we developed a model that's beginning, middle, and106200:55:06.440 --> 00:55:10.280



end right. Beginning is like, okay, we are out of106300:55:10.280 --> 00:55:13.159



our window of tolerance. We are fighting. It is awful.106400:55:13.639 --> 00:55:15.800



We hate each other, we can't talk to each other.106500:55:15.880 --> 00:55:19.039



Everything feels tense, right, So we start with like helping106600:55:19.039 --> 00:55:22.800



them understand who they are at a core level, what's106700:55:22.840 --> 00:55:25.800



happening for them, what are the triggers from each other.106800:55:25.880 --> 00:55:27.639



That's where we kind of go into attachment theory.106900:55:27.679 --> 00:55:31.559



We do the whole genogram with them, timeline birth until107000:55:31.599 --> 00:55:34.760



they need right. Then we're like, okay, oh my god,107100:55:34.800 --> 00:55:36.400



so I used to hide in the closet when you107200:55:36.400 --> 00:55:38.840



hear mom and dad fighting. Okay, why what would happen107300:55:38.880 --> 00:55:40.880



to you? I would get really scared. Right, So we107400:55:41.039 --> 00:55:43.800



just get to see them as little humans from up107500:55:43.840 --> 00:55:47.000



until they meet. Then we go through their relationship timeline107600:55:47.440 --> 00:55:50.039



first day up until now, and we start to identify107700:55:50.119 --> 00:55:53.920



all the crevices. Oh god, that was a big thing107800:55:53.960 --> 00:55:57.440



that happened, and when you guys never talked about it before. Okay, okay,107900:55:57.480 --> 00:56:00.239



so you just waited and you thought by putting get108000:56:00.320 --> 00:56:04.360



under the rug that it would just be have resolution.108100:56:04.519 --> 00:56:05.920



Okay, Well we know that doesn't work.108200:56:05.960 --> 00:56:10.239



So we help them identify early on what skills they108300:56:10.280 --> 00:56:14.360



didn't have and that's why infidelity happened, or that's why108400:56:14.880 --> 00:56:17.760



you know a ton of negative patterns and the communication happened.108500:56:18.159 --> 00:56:20.559



So once we get to that, that's like the middle.108600:56:20.679 --> 00:56:23.519



There's this thing that happens, and it's called the messy middle,108700:56:24.400 --> 00:56:27.239



and it's like couples are like, we're not coming back ever,108800:56:27.840 --> 00:56:29.440



and I'm like, oh, you guys, I even have a108900:56:29.480 --> 00:56:31.400



paper on this, because I remind them in the very109000:56:31.480 --> 00:56:34.000



first session there will be a part where you don't109100:56:34.039 --> 00:56:37.880



want to come back. That is the point of change,109200:56:38.280 --> 00:56:40.440



and I'm going to remind you of it, even if109300:56:40.440 --> 00:56:43.199



it's in an email because you cancel your session. So109400:56:43.360 --> 00:56:47.199



messy middle means that their dynamic is starting to shift,109500:56:48.000 --> 00:56:50.599



even if they've been in dysfunction for twenty years, and109600:56:50.639 --> 00:56:51.480



that feels awful.109700:56:51.840 --> 00:56:55.400



We don't like change. No, no, we want things.109800:56:55.199 --> 00:56:59.199



To say the same homeostasis, right, while homeostasis is getting109900:56:59.239 --> 00:57:02.559



disruptive because now people are caring more and now they're110000:57:02.599 --> 00:57:05.079



more aware, and it feels really bad.110100:57:05.199 --> 00:57:08.039



Let's just go back. I don't want to do this anymore.110200:57:08.800 --> 00:57:12.039



Usually takes one to two weeks of a little destabilization110300:57:12.159 --> 00:57:14.960



in the middle, and then the shift happens.110400:57:15.159 --> 00:57:17.880



We call it the shift. I even have a podcast.110500:57:17.480 --> 00:57:20.840



Called This Shift where it's like we've got into a110600:57:21.000 --> 00:57:26.239



fight and instead of twenty four hours of being apart,110700:57:26.360 --> 00:57:30.239



we were only apart for three hours, and we're like, really,110800:57:30.360 --> 00:57:33.920



how calm well now because there's this understanding and we're110900:57:33.960 --> 00:57:37.400



repairing it more quickly and we understand each other better.111000:57:37.880 --> 00:57:40.159



We literally call it the shift, and we measure it111100:57:40.159 --> 00:57:44.039



with intensity frequency duration, and the shift is like we111200:57:44.079 --> 00:57:47.880



can be together in difficult times and we're not using111300:57:47.880 --> 00:57:50.840



the thread of divorce or really mean things to say111400:57:50.840 --> 00:57:54.800



to each other. So that's the shift. And again it's111500:57:54.880 --> 00:57:58.719



intensity frequency duration. Couples are noticing it's less frequent, it's111600:57:58.760 --> 00:58:02.599



less intensive, less off, and then you start to notice111700:58:02.639 --> 00:58:04.480



that our final part is new.111800:58:04.360 --> 00:58:06.159



Story, old story.111900:58:06.760 --> 00:58:10.679



They are now acting in their relationship from their positive112000:58:10.719 --> 00:58:11.480



core beliefs.112100:58:11.559 --> 00:58:14.000



I am safe, I am okay, we can.112200:58:13.840 --> 00:58:17.039



Handle this, versus I'm not okay, I'm not safe, we112300:58:17.079 --> 00:58:18.960



can't handle this, we're broken, there's.112400:58:18.760 --> 00:58:19.599



Something wrong with me.112500:58:20.079 --> 00:58:24.239



Well, now they are reinforcing their positive core beliefs individually112600:58:24.360 --> 00:58:27.840



and as a couple's dynamic. And that's like when we're112700:58:27.880 --> 00:58:30.280



sitting in there, it's usually about forty six months and112800:58:30.280 --> 00:58:33.000



we're like, there's nothing really.112900:58:32.800 --> 00:58:35.440



To talk about, right, we know old.113000:58:35.239 --> 00:58:40.440



Story, news story is happening, and that Hey, you guys113100:58:40.480 --> 00:58:43.000



are still going to have road bumps, Like, but you113200:58:43.159 --> 00:58:48.119



have learned how to navigate difficult times together. You've learned113300:58:48.159 --> 00:58:50.599



how to remove yourself if you are out of your113400:58:50.639 --> 00:58:54.679



window of tolerance. You've learned how to set boundaries with113500:58:54.719 --> 00:58:58.280



each other and agreements that you will be okay even113600:58:58.320 --> 00:59:01.880



when you're not okay. I've learned to love different parts113700:59:01.920 --> 00:59:04.679



of each other that you didn't even know were there,113800:59:04.800 --> 00:59:07.119



Like EJ's part of avoidance, I'm like, I hate you,113900:59:07.960 --> 00:59:09.639



and now I'm like, oh my god, that's his little114000:59:09.639 --> 00:59:11.639



wounded part from when he was like nine.114100:59:11.840 --> 00:59:13.960



I love that part, even though it's super annoying.114200:59:14.840 --> 00:59:17.199



Yeah, I mean, I know that's like a long answer114300:59:17.280 --> 00:59:20.320



to your question, but it's like it's such a process114400:59:20.360 --> 00:59:22.679



cast but you see it in all the stages. Now114500:59:22.679 --> 00:59:25.079



that we've done it for so long, it's like and114600:59:25.199 --> 00:59:28.599



every couple is different, but you can pinpoint it. Like114700:59:28.679 --> 00:59:31.360



now that we have all of these other therapists trained114800:59:31.400 --> 00:59:33.880



in our model, they're like, oh my gosh, the messy114900:59:33.920 --> 00:59:36.840



metals happening I'm like, oh no, we didn't even know115000:59:36.960 --> 00:59:39.199



it was a thing until like two years in. I'm like, EJ,115100:59:39.360 --> 00:59:42.360



why after session ten do people want to leave?115200:59:43.199 --> 00:59:45.199



Like? And we just started to do all the research115300:59:45.239 --> 00:59:46.000



around what's.115400:59:45.840 --> 00:59:48.519



Happening there, like we I mean, we've learned through this115500:59:48.559 --> 00:59:51.119



whole process too, and it keeps getting better, and now115600:59:51.119 --> 00:59:53.079



I'm revising everything now.115700:59:53.079 --> 00:59:54.199



I'm like, it's just crazy.115800:59:54.239 --> 00:59:56.840



I keep wanting it to get even more better and better.115900:59:56.719 --> 00:59:57.159



Better, better.116000:59:57.559 --> 01:00:01.679



That's that's so natural though, because it's constantly evolving and116101:00:02.079 --> 01:00:04.679



growing in your learning from experience. And I just wanted116201:00:04.719 --> 01:00:06.000



to ask you too, Tara. No, I said that was116301:00:06.000 --> 01:00:09.320



the last question. But while you were talking then I116401:00:09.360 --> 01:00:12.079



was thinking so essentially, for people who were like listening116501:00:12.079 --> 01:00:14.800



to this and you've got their own relationship issues, it116601:00:14.880 --> 01:00:19.480



sounds like whatever people show up with, like it's he's116701:00:19.480 --> 01:00:22.119



got a gambling problem, he gambled all our money, he116801:00:22.440 --> 01:00:25.159



works all weekend, he's never home, he yells at the kids,116901:00:25.159 --> 01:00:27.039



he's not the kind of parent that I want for117001:00:27.239 --> 01:00:29.559



our and then and he doesn't listen to anything I say.117101:00:29.880 --> 01:00:33.239



Whatever the problem is that they show up with, Essentially,117201:00:35.239 --> 01:00:39.320



the process is pretty much the same it's working out117301:00:38.880 --> 01:00:43.960



what causes that behavior. What's what's driving the gambling or117401:00:43.960 --> 01:00:46.519



the working late, or the avoiding or the flirting with117501:00:46.559 --> 01:00:49.280



other women or whatever the thing is, right, it's getting117601:00:49.320 --> 01:00:50.880



underneath to what's driving that.117701:00:51.559 --> 01:00:53.880



Yes, and I love that you said behavior because we117801:00:53.960 --> 01:00:57.000



see our person as the source of this suffering. It's117901:00:57.079 --> 01:01:01.440



actually a behavior that they're doing, but it's not them,118001:01:02.400 --> 01:01:04.719



you know. So I love that we can start to118101:01:04.760 --> 01:01:09.360



see people as whole humans that are imperfect, that have118201:01:09.559 --> 01:01:15.119



behaviors that are definitely not cool at times, but if118301:01:15.159 --> 01:01:18.000



they have that willingness to be like, you know what, that.118401:01:17.880 --> 01:01:20.079



Behavior is just not working for me anymore.118501:01:20.480 --> 01:01:24.159



I'm willing to look at this right in a realistic way.118601:01:25.119 --> 01:01:28.920



I mean, it's again secure attachment cast I can be118701:01:29.039 --> 01:01:31.920



who I am, even though there's parts of me that118801:01:31.960 --> 01:01:36.360



are super broken or have had bad behaviors in the past,118901:01:36.440 --> 01:01:38.760



But like I am, I'm.119001:01:38.639 --> 01:01:43.679



Still loved, you know. And it's huge too, Like the infidelity.119101:01:43.079 --> 01:01:45.519



Piece and the amount of like sex addicts that we've119201:01:45.519 --> 01:01:48.960



talked with, like knowing that their partners now can accept119301:01:49.039 --> 01:01:51.079



the part of them that was an addict at that.119401:01:51.159 --> 01:01:57.079



Time is so beautiful, huge. Oh, the healing is just incredible.119501:01:57.119 --> 01:01:59.679



We're I mean, we have had couples that have gone119601:01:59.679 --> 01:02:02.360



through adelity on our podcast, but like more so and119701:02:02.400 --> 01:02:08.199



more so because couples realize that there is healing to it,119801:02:08.239 --> 01:02:10.679



Like seventy percent, Look, it cures me and my steps.119901:02:10.719 --> 01:02:13.880



Seventy percent of couples who go to counseling after infidelity120001:02:14.480 --> 01:02:18.400



actually make it work. But you would normally think, oh,120101:02:18.519 --> 01:02:21.480



if that happens, we're done. Yeah, you know, but seventy120201:02:21.480 --> 01:02:25.159



percent of couples who go for counseling with infidelity actually120301:02:25.199 --> 01:02:29.119



turn out to be stronger and even more deeply connected120401:02:29.119 --> 01:02:31.440



than they ever thought they could be just putting it120501:02:31.440 --> 01:02:33.960



out there because that's the thing, like when it gets120601:02:34.000 --> 01:02:37.920



to that point, something is really wrong and now we're120701:02:38.000 --> 01:02:41.000



acting out of secrecy or whatever it might be.120801:02:41.639 --> 01:02:42.760



Yeah, it's real good.120901:02:43.119 --> 01:02:45.440



I think there's people can take a lot of hope121001:02:45.440 --> 01:02:48.880



from that that from the worst from the crisis can come,121101:02:49.599 --> 01:02:51.559



the growth can come, all of the healing and it121201:02:51.559 --> 01:02:55.519



could be better than ever. Yeah, this has been so121301:02:55.920 --> 01:02:57.840



this has been such a great conversation, Tarr. But I121401:02:57.880 --> 01:02:59.679



could keep you here for three hours, but nobody's got121501:02:59.679 --> 01:03:03.000



the time for that. But thank you so much. This121601:03:03.079 --> 01:03:03.800



has been a pleasure.121701:03:04.880 --> 01:03:05.360



I loved it.121801:03:05.360 --> 01:03:07.599



When you were like kind of going through everything we121901:03:07.679 --> 01:03:09.599



talked about, I was like, oh my gosh, we did122001:03:09.679 --> 01:03:10.280



go through a lot.122101:03:11.760 --> 01:03:14.639



Crappy to Happy is created and produced by me castun.122201:03:14.800 --> 01:03:16.840



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catch you next week for another fabulous episode of Crappy122901:03:29.960 --> 01:03:39.000



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