July 24, 2025

How to Save Your Relationship with Tarah Kerwin, Couples Therapist

How to Save Your Relationship with Tarah Kerwin, Couples Therapist
How to Save Your Relationship with Tarah Kerwin, Couples Therapist
Crappy to Happy
How to Save Your Relationship with Tarah Kerwin, Couples Therapist
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Season 15RelationshipsPersonal Growth & Healing

Couples Therapist, Tarah Kerwin opens up about how her past trauma affected her relationship with her husband EJ, also a therapist. Despite their professional expertise, they both realised they needed to address their personal issues to save their marriage and build a thriving partnership. Cass and Tarah discuss the importance of self-awareness, emotional safety, understanding the impact of early attachment wounds and building compassionate communication skills. This episode will offer hope to anyone going through relationship difficulties that healing is possible, and that with the right tools, your relationship can be stronger than ever. Takeaways:

  • Past traumas often act as triggers in present relationships but with self-awareness, they can be powerful catalysts for growth.
  • Even if one partner is less willing to work on the issues, there is great value in having individual therapy around relationships.
  • No-one is taught how to communicate intimacy needs but this is a skill that can be learned.
  • Even the most fractured relationships can be restored and rebuilt to be stronger than ever if both people are willing to do the work.


Connect with Tarah and learn about her Relationship Renovation program: www.relationshiprenovation.com
Resources mentioned in this episode: https://www.tarabrach.com/rain/


Connect with Cass:

www.cassdunn.com
www.instagram.com/cassdunn_xo

Contact Crappy to Happy:

Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
www.crappytohappypod.com
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypod
www.tiktok.com/@crappytohappypod


Are you a coach, therapist, service provider or solopreneur struggling with self-doubt and imposter syndrome? I'd love to talk to you! (for market research purposes only!)

Book a call with me to share your experience.

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Upgrade to Paid in the Spotify or Apple podcasts App to get immediate access to "Beyond Happy", the subscriber only podcast featuring bonus content, meditations and more!

Transcript
WEBVTT

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This is Crappita Happy and I am your host, Cass Dunn.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist. I'm mindfulness meditation teacher

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and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In

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this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent

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people who are experts in their field and who have

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something of value to share that will help you feel

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less crappy and more happy. My guest today is Tara Kerwin,

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who is a marriage and family therapist from the US. Tara,

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alongside her husband EJ, is co founder of Relationship Renovation

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Counseling Center, and together they also host a top rnded

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podcast called The Relationship Renovation Podcast. Relationships is such a

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huge topic and Tara has really her talk in their space.

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Although she has been a licensed therapist since her early twenties,

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it wasn't until she was in her mid thirties and

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met her now husband that she realized that she had

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her own trauma that had been impacting her ability to

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cultivate really healthy relationships. So together, the two of them

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recognized that while they were really experts in this space,

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they each had their own work to do in order

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to ensure that their relationship survived and thrived. Tara recognized

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she had a whole lot of past trauma that she

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thought she had dealt with, but that she hadn't. She

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has really cultivated a lot of self awareness and now

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they have built a relationship that they can both feel

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very proud of. But they also have used what they

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have learned in their personal lives to develop a signature

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couples therapy program. So in addition to the face to

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face work that they do with people, they also have

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an online program, which Tara and I will talk about

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in this episode. We talked about the impact of early

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attachment wounds, past traumas that impact current relationships, problems that

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arise when there is a lack of intimacy in a relationship,

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and how you navigate those conversations. We cover so much

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ground in this I know it's going to be relevant

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to so many people. So at that further Ado, let's

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jump in. Here's Tara. Tara, Welcome to the Crappy to

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Happy podcast.

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So happy to be here. I love the name.

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I love the name of your podcast, Relationship Renovation. I

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bet that gets a whole lot of listeners just because

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of the title.

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Yes, exactly, like, what does this mean to renovate my relationship?

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That means many things.

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Yeah, so you are a relationship counselor you're a licensed

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therapist in the US along with your husband, and you

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run a relationship counseling center together. I mean, this is

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a huge topic for any audience, and especially with the

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podcast Crappy to Happy, you know, relationships up for many

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people a big source of distress. Broadly, what are the

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issues that most people by the time they're getting to

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see you, what are the kinds of issues that you're

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seeing day in and day out.

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Okay, how much time do we have?

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So I would say unfortunately, like eighty percent of the

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couples we see it is like either this or we're done.

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So they most humans wait until a crisis happens to

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try to repair it. So unfortunately, like eighty percent of

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the couples are already in some kind of crisis mode.

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And it's infidelity, emotional, physical infidelity, it's poor communication, it's

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been resentment for twenty years, Intimacy is totally nonexistent, you

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name it, we see it, and my heart wants so

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badly to do more preventative measures, and we've tried to

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do like relationship building skills for newly committed couples. Guess what, No,

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it doesn't work because they're good already. And so I

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think that people just don't understand once a relationship hits

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a certain point, there are so many skills needed. And

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I learned this myself in order to make a relationship last.

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We can't just keep our fingers cross it. It'll stay

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that way forever. So unfortunately, yeah, people wait until the

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last you know, either though we're divorced, or we're done or.

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A threat, and then here we are.

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It's a pretty heightened anxious place when they come in

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to see us. And I totally get it because I

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was right there with them.

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Yeah, do you want to just talk about that? Maybe

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because you have your own personal story, don't you of

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having oh yeah, maybe not the happiest relationships and then

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having to really do the work yourself different it, I.

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Know, I was like, what I mean, I've been a

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marriage and family therapist for twenty two years, so I

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knew when I was a little girl, like I didn't

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know what was called the Copples therapist, but I knew

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I was and to help couples because.

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Of I don't know what was just this, Like when

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I would.

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See couples in distress, I would cry for them. I

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just had this empathic ability to feel people's pain and

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suffering and being in my own like pretty awful, neglectful

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childhood with a ton of trauma.

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I knew that I.

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Was going to get through it because I had a

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resilient soul from a young age and that one day

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I would help others.

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And so I was a great marriage counselor.

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Yet in my own life like, yeah, this relationship isn't working,

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This relationship isn't working, this relationship isn't working.

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And I didn't realize just how much my trauma. I

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thought I was just like this really resilient soul.

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I didn't recognize how much my trauma was impacting my

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ability to stay in a healthy relationship because I just

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didn't even know what that was. And so when I

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met EJ, who of course was another therapist, like it

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took another therapist. And when I met Ej, he just

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had this emotional safety to him that I've never had

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in another relationship, Like he just would go deeper, and

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I just I knew that I didn't want to leave

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him the way I left other relationships, and so, I mean,

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I was like, okay, I'll marry you.

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I was thirty eight.

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I had awaited for a really long time, and then

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you know, we got married and he had two boys

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who were two and four, who were delightful, and then

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on our honeymoon, we get pregnant with twins.

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Oh wow.

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So I went from zero to four kids under the

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age of five. Six months later, the twins, by the way,

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both had colic, like, not not just for weeks, for

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nine months, and so I was like, I'm out of here.

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I did not sign up for this. What is this awfulness?

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I mean, I was so stressed, so overwhelmed, had no

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idea that twins and colic would and nursing every hour.

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And that's when I wanted to leave EJ. I was like,

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I this is too much for me. I had never

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been that overwhelmed in my whole life. And that's when I,

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you know, I just called them one day crying. I

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was like, if the two of us we're pretty great people,

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we've got the skills, we're therapists. If we're having this

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heart of a time navigating this new transition to blended

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family and twins, I'm like we've got to a figure

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our shit out.

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B we have to help other couples in our community.

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And that was in twenty sixteen, some almost ten years ago,

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and now we have a staff of fifteen therapists and

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created this model that has helped couples. We have an

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at home program too, so it's actually helped couples worldwide.

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But it all started with like I knew I didn't

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want to leave, but we had to figure out why

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this was so hard. That was kind of the start

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of our relationship Renovation Counseling Center.

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And we're still together and our twins are eleven, and

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we made it. But it was really well guard.

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Because what I thought, like I thought EG and I

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had the skills, and when our life got stressful, he

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got defensive and avoidant. I got more anxious, and we

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literally disconnected.

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We did not know how to figure it out.

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And I feel like through our own experience and everything

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we had to do to develop our emotional safety and

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healthy communication.

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Like that's how we're.

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So people just really trust us because it's we had

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to go through it ourselves. So when couples come in

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and sit in front of us, we're like, oh, yeah,

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we know it might not be the same situation, but

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it's the same feeling alone, alone in it and disconnected.

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And it looks like you want different things, but actually

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you want the same thing.

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You just don't know how to say it.

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And for us, the intimacy piece was big because after

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the twins were born, no, like none of my body

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wanted any of it. That was a different person.

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Yeah, there is so much there to explore. I mean,

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first up to acknowledge that, I mean, one baby is

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a bomb in a relationship, but twins. I haven't had twins.

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I've only got one child, but I can only imagine

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the stress of twins. And then you add somebody else's

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to kids into your life as well, Like, that's a lot.

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That's a lot for any person to deal with. But

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what you have highlighted just then is the different ways

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that you and EJ dealt with how you handle pressure,

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basically because of your own early experience. So is that

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kind of where you tend to start with couples that

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come to see you, Yes.

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And a nuts Shelley, Yes, but you can't go there

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too soon because you kind of have to peel the

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layers off a little because what the first thing I did.

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I was so overwhelmed and resembl that EJ brought up

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this stress in my life.

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I'm like, come, dear you, what happened? Is that not

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my stuff?

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I was so resentful that I couldn't even hear. I

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did not have compassion for him. I did not want

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to be vulnerable with him. I was just angry at him.

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But even the sight of him, I was like, oh,

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and I had never had that before. And so that's

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what the couples we see like. They I mean, they

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sit on like opposite ends of the sofa. They got

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the pillows over them.

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I know it very well.

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I need to start getting very small love seats so

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they can't sit so far. So the very first thing

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I did, and this was before each and I even

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started our Couples Counting Center, is if I was feeling

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really resemful of him, I call a code word and

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I say, ej.

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Ours was burnt toast? Why?

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Because I kept forgetting I had toast and the toaster

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because I was always so dame busy and my coffee

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would be cold in the microwave, freaking toast would be burnt.

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And I just said, EJ. When I say burnt toast.

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That means I'm not good. I'm not going to say

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anything that's kind or loving because I'm not in a

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kind or loving space, and I need to take my.

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Own time out.

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And so either that's you taking all of the kids

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and our dogs just taking them away somewhere in the

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desert for ike, or I'm going to go in my

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room and don't let anybody come in there, like I

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just need to kind of calm my nervous system. And

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so that was the first thing I knew. I looked

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at him in resentment disdain, and I knew that that

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wasn't my heart, but it was for sure my overwhelmed

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Like how dare you make me feel so overwhelmed?

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That was my story.

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So then when I started taking the time outs for myself,

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I went through a little protocol.

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I don't know if you've ever heard of Tara Rock.

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Yeah, she's like one of my favorite people in the

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home white world, and she has this rain protocol, Recognize.

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Allow, investigate, Nurture.

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I would just go and my bedroom and cry, and

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I would listen to Tara Brock whatever her latest podcast was,

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it didn't matter.

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And I remember she took me through the rain technique.

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It's actually one of the biggest tools for mindfulness that

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we use at our center for couples. But and I

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would be like, what's happening here? And so I started

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to understand that my overwhelm was a result from when

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I was very little, so much trauma, so much abuse.

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I have a twin sister too, and.

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We both had it pretty bad, but she was more

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She would be more reactive, where I was like keep

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the peace kind of person because I didn't, you know,

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want my step parents to get crazy, so I would

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like try to protect my sister all of the time.

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So just that feeling of like overwhelm and trying.

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To keep us safe like that was the feeling that

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EJ triggered me. But I would never have known that

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had I not gone deeper. My nervous system doesn't know

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if it was thirty five years ago or today, but

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it was this feeling of I can't.

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Handle this and I'm not safe. EJ. Just walking in

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the tour could trigger that.

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So I started to recognize, oh my gosh, I haven't

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even hit on my trauma.

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I've just avoided it my whole life and helped others. Awesome,

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but no, and so.

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That was so the beginning was code words, so we

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helped couples stop reinforcing their negative it's traumatic for them,

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like they are not kind to each other, they are

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not making each other feel wanted, they are not making

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each other feel like they're in each other's care.

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That's trauma, right.

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We all want to feel a sense of belonging, So

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codewards one of the first things so they can just

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have some respite from that, and then we start to

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help them understand what those negative core beliefs are that

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are being triggered. For me, mine was I'm not safe

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and I'm insignificant. And when our person next to us

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can hear that, it's not that they are not.

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The direct route or cause of that suffering.

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That Actually, this started to get developed very early on

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because we use attachment theory in our practice. They're like,

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oh my god, I'm not the worst person in the world.

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Now compassion starts to get built, and now your partner

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can look at you and say, you are significant, you

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are safe. I'm so sorry the behaviors trigger that, but

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now I have a better understanding. So when both partners

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have a better understanding, then they can move through the

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challenges of having a relationship, which there are many, with

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compassion and empathy and a much broader understanding of like

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how we are from like young kids to now, like

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we're one person, but you know, when we cause suffering

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to another, it feels like we're the worst person in

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the world and we don't have space to see their suffering.

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But again, that process allows you know, when I come

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to EJ and be like, listen, when you said this,

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this is what happened, he had no idea that it

279
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was triggering some physical abuse from my stepdad or dad. Yeah,

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he was just like, wow, thank you for helping me understand.

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And I said, it's not about asking you to not

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do that behavior again, because you will. You will avoid,

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you will defend yourself, you will walk away.

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It will drive me crazy.

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Can't ask you to be this perfect person for me

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not to trigger my trauma. But if you can have

287
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a little bit more understanding and I can do my

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own work and come back and say how it impacted me, Well,

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now we're moving through it, not pushing it under the rug.

290
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And you know, there's some conversations that are easier than others.

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You know, intimacy is much harder that's a more vulnerable conversation.

292
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But when you get the skills of developing that kind

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compassionate communication around each other's suffering, all healing begins right there.

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And so we have a very high success rate.

295
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Only because we take them through this process and it

296
00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:07.440
takes about six months, but it is we're not just

297
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doing communication. We like, look at you from the time

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you are in your mother's room until you met this person,

299
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and we go through all of it and the layers

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of it and getting deep within what those negative core

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beliefs are about yourself. And I think that's why even

302
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if couples don't stay together, which sometimes that's the case,

303
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they have more clarity now and they did this for

304
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their kids and now they can be kind co.

305
00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:35.679
Apherance exactly exactly.

306
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That's huge because we're not like you have to be together.

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Yeah, of course, but Tara, what you just said there,

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and you obviously you opened with the fact that EJ's

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a therapist as well, and so he obviously while being

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a therapist, I know, as much as anybody doesn't make

311
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you the perfect evolved person, like you know, we can

312
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know all of this stuff but still have your own

313
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issues and patterns that you fall into. But he obviously

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was a person who was really like you said, he

315
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was emotionally safe and he was very available and able

316
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to hear that from you. Yeah, it sounds like it

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00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:14.119
does really require two people to be involved in this,

318
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doesn't it, Because potentially while you were talking then I

319
00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:20.519
was thinking, I can already imagine in certain relationships with

320
00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:24.160
certain individuals, somebody almost weaponizing your trauma like ah see

321
00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:25.839
it is or because you're fucked up, like it is

322
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all because you're the one with the trauma. You know,

323
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Like it's got to be a really safe space for

324
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people to be able to be open about. Okay, this

325
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is my childhood wounds and this is how it's affecting

326
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me in the moment.

327
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And I have goosebumps only because like eg didn't even

328
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recognize how much healing he had to do with his

329
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defense and as he just thought he was like this

330
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mindful Buddhist right, I was like, oh no, no, sir,

331
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I feel that region of there. I can feel it.

332
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I Mean, it took me years for me to always

333
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challenge like, honey, there's something else happening here. Trust me life,

334
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And so he trusted me right, gave me the benefit

335
00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:09.680
of the doubt that I wasn't saying that to Like

336
00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:12.720
because he was always emotionally available, but he had some

337
00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:16.039
stuff that was very stuck to from his past relationship

338
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and his childhoods. But here was the thing. Because we're

339
00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:21.519
a therapist and we do what we do, we were

340
00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:26.880
compelled to heal and grow. Most people aren't in this field.

341
00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:31.759
They don't start a podcast. It's not as compelling because

342
00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:34.319
I can't be an impostor. I can't have a couple's

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counseling center and have all these couples I do these

344
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things and not do them for myself. So like, we

345
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were compelled to do the work together and I get

346
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the piece. For other couples, they're not, And so one

347
00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:51.680
person might be way more proactive than the other. Again,

348
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Eji and I were both proactive, I think because of

349
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the types of humans we are, and we really wanted

350
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to make this work, and we really.

351
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Wanted to support other couples.

352
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But we have many individuals that come in and their

353
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partners just not ready, and we say listen, it just

354
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takes one person to be the change agent in this dynamic,

355
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because if you start having better boundaries, they can't treat

356
00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:18.640
you that way anymore, right or so we see a

357
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ton of individuals at our center too, because not all

358
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couples are ready and yeah, and there are people like

359
00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:30.880
we've had to deal with, right, access to narcissistic qualities, sociopathic.

360
00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:31.519
The term gas lighting.

361
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Please, I don't want to hear it anymore, like from

362
00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:35.200
over it.

363
00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:37.839
But it's like, you know, and we can't do there.

364
00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:41.160
You have to have some type of shared goal to

365
00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:43.720
do the couple's work that we offer, and so if

366
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we don't, we say, let's do some individual work first,

367
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so we know when it's We do a pretty lengthy

368
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consultation process to make sure that couple's are.

369
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Ready and not necessarily.

370
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Like you have to be all in, but just that

371
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there is openness to healings, suffering and whatever the way

372
00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:02.440
that looks, because we're.

373
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All uniquely different.

374
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When couples are in conflict, how does somebody know whether

375
00:20:09.400 --> 00:20:13.400
this is my trauma or this is my issue, or

376
00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:17.920
this relationship's just wrong for me, or you're just not

377
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the right person for me. How does somebody make that?

378
00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:23.920
Because I think people get in their heads and really

379
00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:27.440
struggle to figure that out on their own. Are there

380
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signs like, are there things that people can explore for

381
00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:33.680
themselves or questions they can ask themselves that might help

382
00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:34.960
them have a clue about that.

383
00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:36.400
Yes, So I.

384
00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:39.200
Would say, so, first of all, you're just like in

385
00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:43.240
you're in the state of ambivalence, and do I even

386
00:20:43.240 --> 00:20:44.480
want to be with this person?

387
00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:45.559
Should we be together?

388
00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:50.680
The first piece is like how receptive is your partner

389
00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:53.640
right to doing some of the work, And let's just

390
00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:57.240
say that they're not. But you're recognizing that you're not happy,

391
00:20:57.319 --> 00:21:00.119
that you're sad that you don't have that energy at

392
00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:01.960
a piece of you anymore.

393
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:03.519
Like that was me. I just felt.

394
00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:06.440
Overwhelmed and just down and depressed, like this isn't me

395
00:21:06.839 --> 00:21:10.119
and it's got to be this person causing it. But

396
00:21:10.359 --> 00:21:13.559
I was like, Okay, I know right as a therapist

397
00:21:13.599 --> 00:21:18.839
since I was twenty two, I cannot have emotion regulation

398
00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:23.599
based on external circumstances. That I have to feel safe

399
00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:28.240
internally for me, no matter what the external is, and

400
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:33.880
so I would do a lot of internal emotion regulation

401
00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:38.640
first to have clarity. So I'm not expecting others to

402
00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:40.640
heal my wounds, which I used to do all of

403
00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:43.519
the time, And I feel like that gave me a

404
00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:44.759
sense of empowerment.

405
00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:46.920
So then I wasn't ambivalent.

406
00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:49.319
It was a lot of my own individual work, and

407
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:51.680
now I have a choice. And then you get to

408
00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:55.960
make decisions based on empowerment or choices based on feeling

409
00:21:55.960 --> 00:21:59.359
empowered versus ambivalent, which you don't know where to go.

410
00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:02.000
And still you know what it takes. This is the

411
00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:02.799
latest research.

412
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:06.880
Seven to ten years of being in misery to reach

413
00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:10.319
out for counseling, seven to ten years. Imagine what your

414
00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:13.519
little body does. Seven to ten years of being miserable

415
00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:16.920
or ambivalent. You just start to feel you lose any

416
00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:19.720
sense of agency and I'm just going to accept it

417
00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:23.240
is what it is. So for me, it's very much

418
00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:28.400
an individual like how do I get more empowered so

419
00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:30.839
I can make a choice that feels more clear to me?

420
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:34.000
And then right there's tons of books and podcasts and

421
00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:37.319
just the rain protocol for me is I mean I

422
00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:40.720
didn't necessarily, I mean I still do weekly therapy.

423
00:22:40.839 --> 00:22:42.599
I always will, but.

424
00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:46.400
Just having that by myself in the bedroom, listening Toatara

425
00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:49.960
Brock's voice like that was enough for me to soften

426
00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:53.039
inward and be like okay, like EJ's not a monster,

427
00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:58.039
but I feel unsafe around him, I don't know, and

428
00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:00.279
then you want to have a partner that if you

429
00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:05.519
have someone that's consistently not taking any accountability, like now

430
00:23:05.559 --> 00:23:08.599
it's toxic. Now that just doesn't feel good. And I'm

431
00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:11.599
like a healer and I'm a people pleaser. So I

432
00:23:12.119 --> 00:23:15.279
used to stay in those relationships because I'm like, oh,

433
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:19.400
like they'll get better. I'm like, like I would overfunction

434
00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:21.920
at every level. But again, it was once I started

435
00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:23.839
to do a lot of the individual work, I just

436
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:26.599
felt really empowered that whatever choice I made, I would

437
00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:27.440
be okay no.

438
00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:30.039
Matter what it does, sound like it all really starts

439
00:23:30.039 --> 00:23:34.359
with like, regardless of your whatever your personal history, is

440
00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:39.920
what you said before about cultivating safety within yourself and

441
00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:44.160
not looking outside for somebody else to create that or

442
00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:46.319
do whatever it is that you personally feel like you

443
00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:49.519
need for them to do. Like that's a starting point

444
00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:50.519
for anybody, isn't it.

445
00:23:51.319 --> 00:23:55.200
Yes, it's just hard because we like instant gratification and

446
00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:58.200
to feel like taken care of by our other person,

447
00:23:58.279 --> 00:24:01.119
and so when you have to do that work, it's

448
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:04.759
more delayed gratification, but it's so worth it. It's freedom

449
00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:09.839
because and here's another thing, right, I love statistics. First

450
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:13.519
divorce rate right now is forty nine point three percent,

451
00:24:13.960 --> 00:24:18.480
Second time married is sixty seven percent, Third marriage is

452
00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:19.960
seventy four percent.

453
00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:21.359
It follows you.

454
00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:26.039
You could marry the exact opposite and your stuff will

455
00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:29.440
follow you. So doing the work, regardless of whatever relationship

456
00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:32.240
you're in right now is so worth it. So you

457
00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:37.640
don't repeat those steps. You don't repeat those unconscious attachments.

458
00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:38.319
Shall I say?

459
00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:41.119
We don't get better at marriage the more times we

460
00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:41.480
do it.

461
00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:43.880
No, And it's like, I mean we have people like

462
00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:46.200
I married the exact opposite person.

463
00:24:46.279 --> 00:24:47.640
How is this happening again?

464
00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:51.039
And then those people feel like they're uniquely broken. I'm like, no, no,

465
00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:54.480
look at the statistics right you just you know, we

466
00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:57.519
want to run from triggers and we want to be like, no,

467
00:24:57.599 --> 00:24:58.640
this is a bad situation.

468
00:24:58.680 --> 00:24:59.480
We shouldn't be in it now.

469
00:24:59.559 --> 00:25:02.640
Yes, our some unsafe situations that you do need to

470
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:04.880
make yourself safe and get out of there. Trust me,

471
00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:09.400
we have those too, But like it is so important

472
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:10.480
to stay.

473
00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:13.440
With uncomfortable and learn from it. And we have.

474
00:25:13.559 --> 00:25:16.119
This big chalkboard right when you walk into our lobby

475
00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:19.759
and it says, our partner is our greatest teacher, be

476
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:23.799
patient for the lessons. This is the one person that

477
00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:26.319
will trigger all of your shit that you don't even

478
00:25:26.359 --> 00:25:29.440
know about. But it's like you don't want to stay

479
00:25:29.480 --> 00:25:33.759
around for it because it's really annoying. Yeah, but if

480
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:36.920
you really sit with it, I say, guys, like EJ's

481
00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:39.240
in my blind spot. He's going to tell me when

482
00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:42.480
I can't, you know, see something, because I trust that

483
00:25:42.519 --> 00:25:44.720
he has the best interest.

484
00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:46.200
For me, like he wants me to be happy.

485
00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:47.359
Yeah.

486
00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:49.640
So when we usually kind of say it in that way,

487
00:25:49.720 --> 00:25:52.640
it's like, Okay, I'm willing to be uncomfortable for like

488
00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:53.319
six months.

489
00:25:53.319 --> 00:25:56.079
You guys, okay, make be longer than that, but you

490
00:25:56.119 --> 00:25:56.440
never know.

491
00:25:57.480 --> 00:26:00.559
You mentioned the attachment theory infolms of the work that

492
00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:04.400
you do, which is obviously great. I mean out there,

493
00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:07.680
just in general on social media now, there's loads of

494
00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:10.119
people who are talking about, oh I'm an avoidant, or

495
00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:12.880
if you're in a relationship with it with an anxious

496
00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:17.720
or you know, people are talking about attachment out there.

497
00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:21.640
There is this kind of preconception. I guess that if

498
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:24.519
you're avoidant, you're probably going to hook up with somebody

499
00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:28.319
who's anxious, and that's a disaster. Is it possible for

500
00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:32.079
people who have these attachment styles based on the early

501
00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:35.160
history to make it work. Like if they are one

502
00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:39.200
of those couples anxious, avoidant, you're triggering me every time

503
00:26:39.240 --> 00:26:41.880
we have a conflict. Is their hope for those people?

504
00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:43.119
It is like.

505
00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:49.319
Again, secure attachment, right, is what our hope is for

506
00:26:49.400 --> 00:26:52.960
all humans. Secure attachment is I can be mean no

507
00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:56.720
matter what, and I still am lovable and I'm still.

508
00:26:56.559 --> 00:26:57.880
I have a sense of belonging.

509
00:26:58.200 --> 00:27:00.920
So with all my imperfection, it's like we can be

510
00:27:01.079 --> 00:27:04.400
each other whoever. That is all the good, all the bad,

511
00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:07.599
and we are still loved. So that is the hope.

512
00:27:07.640 --> 00:27:11.119
And the interesting that happens cast is that when we

513
00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:15.319
start doing all of this attachment work with couples at

514
00:27:15.319 --> 00:27:19.920
an individual level, but they're together, most people have never

515
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:23.079
had any secure attachments ever, so they.

516
00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:24.640
Don't even know what it feels like.

517
00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:29.640
So when we start to build, oh, most of our

518
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:36.160
couples leave our center with a secure attachment coming from disorganized, avoiding, anxious,

519
00:27:36.200 --> 00:27:36.720
you name it.

520
00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:37.960
I've got all of them.

521
00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:40.359
I've got the disorganized, I've got the anxious, I got

522
00:27:40.359 --> 00:27:43.240
the I mean. I don't like to label one thing,

523
00:27:43.799 --> 00:27:48.359
but The idea is that when you're building secure attachment,

524
00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:51.119
I can be whoever it is I need to be,

525
00:27:51.240 --> 00:27:54.039
an EJ will still love me and even though when

526
00:27:54.079 --> 00:27:56.799
times are hard, there's no threat that he'll leave me

527
00:27:56.799 --> 00:27:58.039
because I'm a bad person.

528
00:27:58.839 --> 00:27:59.839
Like, we just build this.

529
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:04.160
It's like a trust right that should be built between

530
00:28:04.440 --> 00:28:09.240
infant and caregiver. Right, But if you have an inconsistent

531
00:28:09.319 --> 00:28:12.160
caregiver who let's just say, has a drinking problem or

532
00:28:12.279 --> 00:28:16.400
mental health issues, right, you get this inconsistent caring. So

533
00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:21.559
that is what develops in secure attachment. Whatever that insecurity is,

534
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:23.640
it could be avoidant, it could be anxious. So when

535
00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:27.000
you actually can build trust that no matter what happens,

536
00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:30.559
this person will consistently try to meet your needs and

537
00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:35.039
love you, it's everything. And you'll see couples hugging in

538
00:28:35.079 --> 00:28:37.720
our parking lot. We live near our center, so I

539
00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:40.000
will wear open seven days a week and I see

540
00:28:40.039 --> 00:28:43.359
couples hugging each other. I was like, Oh, that's happening.

541
00:28:43.480 --> 00:28:47.599
They're building their secure attachment, Like it's beautiful to see.

542
00:28:47.799 --> 00:28:53.240
And yes, do anxious and avoidant hookups very naturally, for sure,

543
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:57.279
but that just means they have the best ability to

544
00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:01.319
trigger each other to then develop the secure attachment.

545
00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:04.400
But they look at it in the wrong way.

546
00:29:04.519 --> 00:29:06.960
They see this person as the person as the source

547
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:10.240
that they're suffering. Why don't you see this person as

548
00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:11.680
the source of your growth?

549
00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:13.039
I love that.

550
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:18.599
So what you just said was, if you end up

551
00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:22.240
with somebody who really triggers you, you could potentially you

552
00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:27.240
could reframe this to the perfect opportunity for your own

553
00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:28.119
growth and healing.

554
00:29:28.960 --> 00:29:33.400
Absolutely, if it's physically safe, right, emotionally safe, Like that's

555
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:37.839
the thing. You There are some toxic relationships out there,

556
00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:42.319
and there are people that you know do have malicious

557
00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:46.279
intent unfortunately, So I always just want to say, like

558
00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:49.519
it's you know, but no, for the most part, if

559
00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:53.200
your partner triggers you, my gosh, Like I get so

560
00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:55.519
excited when EJ and I trigger each other because we

561
00:29:55.599 --> 00:29:59.000
always grow from it. And he still wants to avoid conflict,

562
00:29:59.240 --> 00:30:01.799
Like just yes today, he's like, well, how can we

563
00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:04.559
make this better? I'm like, no, but look what just happened,

564
00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:08.240
Like I just learned so much about our trigger that

565
00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:11.720
just happened while we were barbecuing, And he's like, okay,

566
00:30:11.720 --> 00:30:13.839
you're right, Like he still wants to go to the

567
00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:18.160
avoidance piece. But I get so excited because we just

568
00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:20.640
keep growing from each other. I mean, we still have

569
00:30:20.759 --> 00:30:23.960
our arguments, we still have our areas of communication where

570
00:30:24.319 --> 00:30:26.119
we can get better. And so when we do have

571
00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:29.559
our little fallouts, now, do they happen less yes, are

572
00:30:29.559 --> 00:30:33.519
they less sentence yes, are they less frequent, yes, But

573
00:30:33.640 --> 00:30:35.880
we're still like, we learned a huge thing about our

574
00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:37.039
relationship yesterday.

575
00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:41.319
So there's opportunities everywhere if you're open, if you.

576
00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:43.359
Can be okay with being that. Okay.

577
00:30:43.559 --> 00:30:45.559
The other thing you said earlier tour was that you

578
00:30:45.720 --> 00:30:47.799
were always a people pleaser, and so you were the

579
00:30:47.799 --> 00:30:52.119
one who would in relationships trust that it will get better,

580
00:30:52.279 --> 00:30:54.440
or try to fix them or try to be the

581
00:30:54.519 --> 00:30:57.440
right person for them. What advice do you have for

582
00:30:57.599 --> 00:31:00.079
other people who see themselves in that.

583
00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:04.119
I love this and this is actually I feel like

584
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:05.799
I did in a podcast episode on this.

585
00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:08.720
But it's called the overfunctioner, right.

586
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:14.000
Because people pleasers are overfunctioners. They overfunction in the relationships,

587
00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:17.440
whether it's with their kids, intimate partners, friends, family, you

588
00:31:17.519 --> 00:31:20.480
name it. So an overfunctioner is this. I want them

589
00:31:20.519 --> 00:31:22.519
to be happy, I want them to be okay. So

590
00:31:22.599 --> 00:31:24.960
I'm going to do whatever it takes to make sure

591
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:30.200
everything's good. Well, when I first started learning this term,

592
00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:34.359
right after I was overwhelmed with the kids. My therapist

593
00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:36.160
is like, oh my god, girl.

594
00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:39.640
You over a function in every role. I'm like, why,

595
00:31:39.720 --> 00:31:40.480
what does that mean?

596
00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:44.279
I was like getting gifts for Eja's mom a Mother's

597
00:31:44.359 --> 00:31:46.720
Day and all the birthdays, and I'm doing all the

598
00:31:46.799 --> 00:31:51.200
homework with my step boys and I'm like, isn't that

599
00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:55.119
just normal? Like but other people weren't doing it and

600
00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:57.359
they were like and my therapist was like, no, dear,

601
00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:01.039
like you've got you have to have bound for yourself,

602
00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:02.720
like you, this is.

603
00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:05.960
Not your job. That's not your role to.

604
00:32:06.119 --> 00:32:09.400
Like make sure everything is always taken care of.

605
00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:12.799
And I was like, what again had been learning?

606
00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:15.160
I'd been taking care of my sister, Like we started

607
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:17.559
working when we were eight, just to my food for

608
00:32:17.640 --> 00:32:20.640
ourselves and I would like go mop floors and then

609
00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:23.240
I go by us hot dogs at the seven eleven.

610
00:32:23.799 --> 00:32:26.440
Like I overfunctioned from a young age just to make

611
00:32:26.480 --> 00:32:29.400
sure we survived. So that was one thing, but I

612
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:31.599
didn't know that I could let go of that role

613
00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:35.039
when I was an adult. So here's what happens, and

614
00:32:35.079 --> 00:32:36.839
this is how because I work with a lot of

615
00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:40.279
people pleasers. If I'm going to overfunction, let's just say

616
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:43.160
for my daughter and help her with her math homework

617
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:45.359
and sit beside her and make she make sure she

618
00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:49.799
gets all of the ones correct. She will never learn

619
00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:53.079
how to handle it herself. And now I'm being a

620
00:32:53.079 --> 00:32:56.839
disservice because I'm actually not helping her grow and I'm

621
00:32:56.839 --> 00:33:00.799
not letting her be uncomfortable and I'm not letting her figure.

622
00:33:00.359 --> 00:33:02.880
It out herself or with e J.

623
00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:06.279
If I'm like the one constantly getting all of the

624
00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:10.119
Mother's Day gifts birthday gifts, like dude, that's not my job.

625
00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:13.720
I love your mom, but like if I keep doing that,

626
00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:15.880
I'm not going to let you know that that's this

627
00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:18.799
kind of a responsibility you should have. Like it's you

628
00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:21.119
know what I mean, that's like a small thing. I

629
00:33:21.240 --> 00:33:23.720
overfunctioned him many different ways. I took on all the

630
00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:25.240
intimacy guilds, all of it.

631
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:29.279
But the biggest thing here is when you overfunction, you

632
00:33:29.480 --> 00:33:34.119
actually it's an unconscious mistrust that the other person can't

633
00:33:34.119 --> 00:33:38.079
do it, and the relationship will fall apart, especially in

634
00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:39.160
an intimate relationship.

635
00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:40.599
I was like, oh my god, if I don't do this.

636
00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:43.279
If I don't buy the groceries, well everybody will starve.

637
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:47.279
Well that's not true. I just didn't trust it. Eaj

638
00:33:47.480 --> 00:33:49.839
could do it, so I would do it for him.

639
00:33:50.359 --> 00:33:53.759
And now I learned that was an overfunctioning room. And

640
00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:56.359
he's awesome at getting groceries when he needs to. He'll

641
00:33:56.359 --> 00:33:58.920
mess it up still sometimes, but that's okay. So we

642
00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:01.720
had to give each other that chance to like make

643
00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:05.920
mistakes and you know, let go of that control because

644
00:34:05.960 --> 00:34:07.480
it's actually freedom.

645
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:07.599
Now for me.

646
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:09.480
I have so much more space now that I'm not

647
00:34:09.559 --> 00:34:12.559
people pleasing or overfunctioning. Though I still have the tendency,

648
00:34:13.039 --> 00:34:17.119
I'm aware of what that tendency feels like. It's like, oh, oh,

649
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:20.159
I've got a it's like a you know. And then

650
00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:22.840
I'm like, oh no, that's that's not mine. I can

651
00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:25.719
be of support if you need help, ask me. It's

652
00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:29.440
such a huge shift. That is like my when I'm

653
00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:32.119
doing a lot of my counseling with my individuals, like

654
00:34:32.199 --> 00:34:35.079
that's my jam right there, like working with people pleasers

655
00:34:35.079 --> 00:34:38.320
and overfunctioners, and when they they realize they don't have

656
00:34:38.360 --> 00:34:40.559
to take on so much, it's like, oh my gosh, Tara,

657
00:34:40.599 --> 00:34:43.000
I have my space back, I've got my freedom back.

658
00:34:43.039 --> 00:34:45.559
I'm like, I know, I didn't even know it was there.

659
00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:50.119
It's uncomfortable to run. It's for you to have to

660
00:34:50.199 --> 00:34:52.639
let go of that control. Like what you said before,

661
00:34:52.679 --> 00:34:55.199
it's that's staying with that discomfort.

662
00:34:55.599 --> 00:35:00.079
It was so hard. But once you see the.

663
00:35:01.960 --> 00:35:06.639
Impact from it and that your children are actually okay,

664
00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:12.960
and that your husband actually can handle it, Like with

665
00:35:13.239 --> 00:35:16.400
each experience, it gets easier and easier. But in the

666
00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:19.280
very beginning, like when my therapist said, Tara, you can't

667
00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:21.639
sit and do the homework with the kids anymore, I was.

668
00:35:21.559 --> 00:35:25.719
Like, ah, okay, they're gonna fail. Well, guess what. They

669
00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:28.719
have maintained their nineties.

670
00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:32.880
Club status and one of the hardest elementary schools in Tucson.

671
00:35:34.119 --> 00:35:37.199
I have not sat with them with the homework assignment

672
00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:41.280
and they're in fifth grade since third grade. Cast guess

673
00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:44.280
what freedom for me? At night, I'm watching my reality shows.

674
00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:46.039
You guys, go do your homework with you.

675
00:35:46.519 --> 00:35:49.719
It's so nice, but it is hard at first, But

676
00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:54.800
then when you see the outcome of it, it's like, Okay, awesome,

677
00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:56.400
we got this now.

678
00:35:56.400 --> 00:35:57.840
I still did have to.

679
00:35:57.719 --> 00:36:00.039
Do with the mother's Day stuff for you, Jay, But

680
00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:05.079
I get that that's just not his instinct, like.

681
00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:07.880
He will he went to get me a Mother's daycard and.

682
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:11.639
Forgot his own mom. I was like, Honnie, Like he's like, dear,

683
00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:14.039
I just don't think of it. And so I'm helping him,

684
00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:17.960
but I'm not overfunctioning, and that there's a difference. Yeah,

685
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:21.119
functioning is like I have this most trust.

686
00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:22.360
Supporting him is like.

687
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:25.880
Oh, that's just not his wheelhouse, Like he would not

688
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:28.719
remember to probably get me a Mother's Day card if

689
00:36:28.760 --> 00:36:29.360
I wasn't.

690
00:36:29.199 --> 00:36:31.960
Like, hey, honey, it's not day tomorrow, Gotta go to.

691
00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:34.679
Walgreenson And that's the key ride. It's not being able

692
00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:39.039
to discern for yourself where the line is, what's what's

693
00:36:39.559 --> 00:36:43.000
motivating this behavioral or what's driving it? And that's I

694
00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:45.719
guess for every individual, they're going to have to figure

695
00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:48.599
that bit out for themselves. The thing that you said

696
00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:50.840
before that I wanted to pick up on was, Okay,

697
00:36:50.840 --> 00:36:55.400
so big issue in couples is no intimacy, and you

698
00:36:55.559 --> 00:36:59.159
experienced it. I know so many couples who are there

699
00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:02.119
as well, and and we'll talk about that as an issue.

700
00:37:02.199 --> 00:37:04.800
But what you just said about intimacy guilt that you

701
00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:08.199
carried all of that guilt. Is it your experience that

702
00:37:08.199 --> 00:37:11.920
that's a kind of a woman thing that women feel

703
00:37:11.960 --> 00:37:14.280
all of the guilt And is that just a gendered

704
00:37:14.559 --> 00:37:18.079
like an expectation or a stereotype. I'm curious to know

705
00:37:18.559 --> 00:37:19.400
in your experience.

706
00:37:20.199 --> 00:37:25.960
From my experience, there are many women that feel the

707
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:29.239
exact same way I do. So I have to think

708
00:37:29.480 --> 00:37:32.079
I'm just not alone in this, and I'm just kind

709
00:37:32.119 --> 00:37:36.039
of you know, making this more general. But for men,

710
00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:40.519
that friskiness in their body, I call it friskiness, like

711
00:37:40.679 --> 00:37:44.840
it feels like it comes easier, like even when they're young,

712
00:37:44.920 --> 00:37:47.280
like I, you know, when I'm in middle school and stuff,

713
00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:50.039
I'm not master reading and having to like have this

714
00:37:50.159 --> 00:37:54.039
release and all of that. I just liked going on

715
00:37:54.159 --> 00:37:57.320
dates and you know, getting taken out.

716
00:37:57.159 --> 00:37:57.960
And stuff like that.

717
00:37:58.000 --> 00:38:01.079
Like my thing has always been more emotional intimacy and

718
00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:04.599
stuff like that. But even like after the twins were born,

719
00:38:04.599 --> 00:38:07.280
like my sex drive went to nothing, and I had

720
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:09.960
been like more playful and stuff. But what happened is

721
00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:13.760
like Eja, he's consistently frisky, Like he could be frisky

722
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:16.719
at six am, at three in the morning, like it

723
00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:20.079
doesn't he could make it happen anytime, anywhere. And then

724
00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:24.360
I started to say no a lot, or just like

725
00:38:24.519 --> 00:38:27.119
avoid it at all cost, or even get in fights

726
00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:27.719
on date.

727
00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:29.000
Night because I'd be like, oh god, I don't want

728
00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:30.679
to do those or do all.

729
00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:33.960
These unconscious things because I feel I would feel bad,

730
00:38:34.280 --> 00:38:36.199
like oh God, he's going to want it and I

731
00:38:36.239 --> 00:38:37.480
don't want it, and I know that I.

732
00:38:37.480 --> 00:38:39.480
Don't want to give in because that's bad.

733
00:38:40.119 --> 00:38:42.519
So that's when like guilt started, right, So then I

734
00:38:42.559 --> 00:38:46.079
would just start to avoid it. And here's the biggest

735
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:48.440
thing too, Like eg and I didn't talk about it. Well,

736
00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:50.920
couples don't talk about it. They will come in and

737
00:38:50.920 --> 00:38:53.079
one of their biggest goals is intimacy, and like, when

738
00:38:53.119 --> 00:38:53.800
is the last time.

739
00:38:53.639 --> 00:38:54.559
You guys talked about it?

740
00:38:54.639 --> 00:38:57.519
Well, we don't why because it's just not happening. We

741
00:38:57.599 --> 00:38:59.199
just wanted to happen. But how are you going to

742
00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:03.400
have impact you? And if you're not talking about it,

743
00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:05.039
how are you going to make it different? Right, So

744
00:39:05.119 --> 00:39:10.840
we started to recognize there's this unrealistic expectation that intimacy

745
00:39:10.840 --> 00:39:12.519
will just go back to the way.

746
00:39:12.360 --> 00:39:14.360
It was in the beginning of the relationship.

747
00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:18.639
No, that's not true, because what happens is that intimacy

748
00:39:18.679 --> 00:39:22.440
guilt is a sort of grief. Like I was greeting,

749
00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:26.719
but I didn't know that I lost any desire to

750
00:39:26.840 --> 00:39:29.599
be frisky and playful with my husband because now I'm

751
00:39:29.639 --> 00:39:35.599
keeping these humans alive, feeding them, I'm con constantly cleaning

752
00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:37.199
and laundry like never.

753
00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:41.159
Knew there was so much laundry. Kids, My god, but

754
00:39:41.199 --> 00:39:41.920
it's a lot.

755
00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:45.639
It's a lot, and so I was greeting it, but

756
00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:49.480
I didn't know that the guilt was grief. I just

757
00:39:49.519 --> 00:39:53.480
saw EJ get more frustrated and then more shut down.

758
00:39:53.920 --> 00:39:56.199
And we see this in our couples, right, So then

759
00:39:56.239 --> 00:40:00.440
it just becomes a powerless feeling for both. One of

760
00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:05.880
our highest two highest podcast episodes are Low Frisky and

761
00:40:05.960 --> 00:40:09.199
High Frisky. EJ talks about what it's like to be

762
00:40:09.239 --> 00:40:12.599
the high frisky partner in the relationship. I talk it's

763
00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:15.719
about to be the low frisky, the low desire partner,

764
00:40:16.199 --> 00:40:20.880
and guess what, both places feel powerless because the low

765
00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:25.360
frisky partner holds all the control. I say when I

766
00:40:25.519 --> 00:40:29.639
say if right, that's awful. That's like not a great

767
00:40:29.639 --> 00:40:33.559
place to be. But the high frisky partner now feels

768
00:40:33.559 --> 00:40:36.239
like they have all the control. Right that the lower part,

769
00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:39.320
the low frisky partner, has all the control, and now

770
00:40:39.639 --> 00:40:43.280
the high frisky like, oh, I'm just being punished. Like

771
00:40:43.599 --> 00:40:49.559
it turns into such a toxic, tense energy when both

772
00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:53.079
of them are actually feeling powerless in it. They both

773
00:40:53.239 --> 00:40:55.679
want to connect, but they don't know how to because

774
00:40:55.679 --> 00:40:59.320
they haven't talked about it and both are grieving. High

775
00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:01.360
frisky is like, oh God, I miss my partner. I

776
00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:04.480
miss touching them, I miss being close to them. I

777
00:41:04.599 --> 00:41:07.519
missed that one unique thing I do with them and

778
00:41:07.559 --> 00:41:11.800
not anybody else. And the other partner is suffering alone.

779
00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:15.920
God I missed those feelings of desire. God, I just

780
00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:18.159
missed the feeling of being who I used to be

781
00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:21.320
in the body I used to have. And so once

782
00:41:21.400 --> 00:41:25.280
we start to process grief with the intimacy, it takes

783
00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:27.480
on a whole new outlet because now couples are willing

784
00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:30.639
to talk about it, knowing that they're both in a

785
00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:34.760
place of powerlessness. But yes, it's usually that the woman

786
00:41:34.840 --> 00:41:40.360
feels intimacy guilt, the man feels frustrated that she's punishing him.

787
00:41:40.599 --> 00:41:43.039
This is in like, you know, heterosexual relationships.

788
00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:46.679
Yeah, and then that last the people will We have

789
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:49.360
had couples that haven't had intimacy in twenty years.

790
00:41:49.840 --> 00:41:51.679
Oh my god, twenty years.

791
00:41:52.119 --> 00:41:54.480
There was one couple that had never had it and

792
00:41:54.519 --> 00:41:58.480
they had been married, not even on their honeymoon. Really, Yes,

793
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:04.840
we have seen the gamut of like intimacy issues and

794
00:42:04.880 --> 00:42:06.960
the biggest thing we noticed is they didn't know how

795
00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:11.000
to talk about it because it's super vulnerable. Yeah, and

796
00:42:11.039 --> 00:42:14.480
it's the most raw you could be with anybody. And

797
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:17.880
when we again, when we just when we identify it

798
00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:21.400
as grief and powerlessness and that both people feel alone

799
00:42:21.440 --> 00:42:24.199
in it, then we can start to make some sort

800
00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:28.519
of agreement. And we do a ton of safety containers

801
00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:33.320
around intimacy for couples in the beginning, because if let's

802
00:42:33.320 --> 00:42:36.199
just say your husband comes in and smacks your butt, immediately,

803
00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:39.000
the wife, who maybe is the low risk people will

804
00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:42.840
be like a freeze, like, oh no, what's happening. So

805
00:42:42.920 --> 00:42:45.280
we say, okay, you guys are going to have safety containers,

806
00:42:45.360 --> 00:42:50.320
like butt touching means just that that there's no expectation

807
00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:53.519
or anything around that, because you've got to get your

808
00:42:53.559 --> 00:42:57.280
nervous system now recognizing that they this person is safe

809
00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:02.960
and that hand gestures you know are safe and that

810
00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:06.480
you guys can work within these containers to then go

811
00:43:06.679 --> 00:43:09.000
you know, because a lot of couples hurt each other

812
00:43:09.039 --> 00:43:11.719
with intimacy, like they really do. They weaponize it with

813
00:43:11.800 --> 00:43:14.440
each other, you know, and then when there's infidelity. Room

814
00:43:14.599 --> 00:43:18.360
with so much infidelity like whatever, you know, the perpetrator

815
00:43:18.280 --> 00:43:20.320
or the person that you know had to go through

816
00:43:20.599 --> 00:43:23.960
the infidelity. On the other hand, like when they're having sex,

817
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:24.679
that's where a lot.

818
00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:27.280
Of flashbacks come back and trauma and like.

819
00:43:27.239 --> 00:43:29.840
So there's just so much safety containers we put in

820
00:43:29.880 --> 00:43:32.920
for intimacy, but they work because you have to do it.

821
00:43:32.920 --> 00:43:33.679
It's boundaried.

822
00:43:34.760 --> 00:43:39.679
Yeah, So going back to the couples who are taking

823
00:43:40.159 --> 00:43:42.760
infidelity off the table for a minute, so couples who

824
00:43:43.039 --> 00:43:45.719
want to get that back, because what you just said

825
00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:46.679
was an important point too.

826
00:43:46.719 --> 00:43:48.719
It gets the point in relationships. I've been there in

827
00:43:48.719 --> 00:43:52.320
my own relationship where I almost you would avoid any

828
00:43:52.440 --> 00:43:55.119
kind of dog don't even hug me, because in my mind,

829
00:43:55.159 --> 00:43:56.440
as soon as you hug me, or as soon as

830
00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:57.880
I hug you, or as soon as I show you

831
00:43:57.920 --> 00:44:00.000
any affection, you're going to take that as a sign

832
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:03.079
that it's on. And if it's not on and I'm

833
00:44:03.079 --> 00:44:05.280
not interested, then I'm not going to give you any sign.

834
00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:07.400
So then the terms. Then there's not even there's not

835
00:44:07.440 --> 00:44:09.400
just no sex, there's not even I don't want to

836
00:44:09.599 --> 00:44:11.960
be near you or give you any kind of indication,

837
00:44:12.519 --> 00:44:14.079
which is just so self defeating.

838
00:44:14.559 --> 00:44:15.800
Yeah, so with.

839
00:44:15.880 --> 00:44:19.480
Your couples, is the work to be done in like

840
00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:22.840
creating those smaller Yeah, okay, you can hug and you

841
00:44:22.880 --> 00:44:25.679
can hold hands, but there's no more expectation and kind

842
00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:30.239
of build back to feeling safe just being connected without

843
00:44:30.239 --> 00:44:31.599
the sex before you get to that bit.

844
00:44:32.119 --> 00:44:36.039
Everybody is so different, but most couples we've worked with,

845
00:44:36.159 --> 00:44:39.639
especially when they're dealing with, you know, painful intimacy experiences

846
00:44:39.679 --> 00:44:42.440
with each other, as you have to have containers and

847
00:44:42.599 --> 00:44:47.119
boundaries because like, let's just say, for example, like this

848
00:44:47.320 --> 00:44:50.000
was just an argument Egen they had like when more

849
00:44:50.159 --> 00:44:51.559
not having sex.

850
00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:54.719
Eg will point that out right like.

851
00:44:54.800 --> 00:44:57.760
Oh, a couple of weeks and then I'm like, okay,

852
00:44:58.039 --> 00:45:00.760
we have here it goes again like oh there's my girls.

853
00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:03.159
I know what that is, and I'm like, Eja, let

854
00:45:03.159 --> 00:45:06.239
me just ask you this. Why is it like when

855
00:45:06.559 --> 00:45:10.199
sex isn't happening. You're aware of that, but we haven't

856
00:45:10.239 --> 00:45:13.599
had a date night in two months, I said, So

857
00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:15.760
I've got to let you know what would feel safe

858
00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:18.239
to me. Is I get it. It hasn't happened sex

859
00:45:18.320 --> 00:45:21.480
physical sex has not happened in two weeks, but we

860
00:45:21.559 --> 00:45:25.239
haven't had a date night in over two months, whatever

861
00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:26.719
it is, And I've got to let you know, like

862
00:45:26.960 --> 00:45:32.599
I need the emotional intimacy, I need date nights with you,

863
00:45:32.719 --> 00:45:35.079
Like I can't just have sex with you at three

864
00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:37.039
in the morning and not have had And he's like,

865
00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:40.719
you're right, Tarah. He's like, we are not cultivating priority

866
00:45:40.719 --> 00:45:43.760
of our relationship and I am just looking at the

867
00:45:43.800 --> 00:45:46.320
frequency that we haven't had it in two weeks. So

868
00:45:46.440 --> 00:45:49.800
it's those kind of conversations where it's like, I'm willing

869
00:45:49.840 --> 00:45:52.039
to have this conversation with you like that we haven't

870
00:45:52.039 --> 00:45:54.079
had sex in two weeks, but I also need you

871
00:45:54.119 --> 00:45:56.039
to be willing to be like, oh, we also haven't

872
00:45:56.039 --> 00:45:58.719
had a date night in two months, because I'm not

873
00:45:58.760 --> 00:46:00.639
going to be it's not going to be on me

874
00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:04.719
that we just haven't had the sex, the physical act

875
00:46:04.760 --> 00:46:08.559
of it, like it's other things too, And so having

876
00:46:08.599 --> 00:46:12.559
that type of communication with the other person around like okay,

877
00:46:12.599 --> 00:46:15.280
so let's just say the person who's got higher frisky,

878
00:46:15.639 --> 00:46:17.719
their focus is all like always.

879
00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:19.360
Like, oh my gosh, can we have sex. I'm going

880
00:46:19.400 --> 00:46:20.960
to have sex. We're going to have sex. We can't

881
00:46:20.960 --> 00:46:21.400
have sex.

882
00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:25.480
You've got to be able to now generalize that to

883
00:46:25.639 --> 00:46:29.239
other areas in order to build safety around it for

884
00:46:29.320 --> 00:46:32.599
them the other person to be like, oh my gosh,

885
00:46:32.599 --> 00:46:35.599
they are trying in these other ways. Oh look they did.

886
00:46:36.800 --> 00:46:39.480
We went out to lunch for two hours. We prioritized

887
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:43.159
our relationship for these you know, these days, because that

888
00:46:43.280 --> 00:46:47.880
was really important because you come in with just this one.

889
00:46:48.760 --> 00:46:50.599
We want to have more sex, we want to feel

890
00:46:50.599 --> 00:46:53.599
more connected. Well maybe one person does, but what does

891
00:46:53.599 --> 00:46:54.920
that mean for the other person?

892
00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:58.400
So we help them both define what that is.

893
00:46:58.320 --> 00:47:01.119
For them and then how to get to these kind

894
00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:06.639
of agreements that would cultivate the deepest intimacy possible.

895
00:47:07.039 --> 00:47:08.719
And everyone's very different.

896
00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:12.119
Everyone is very different, right, And it's not about low

897
00:47:12.159 --> 00:47:14.880
sex drive and high sex drive because those like even

898
00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:18.320
they can change throughout transitions in lifetime.

899
00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:22.159
If it's about having healthy communication about what it's like.

900
00:47:22.840 --> 00:47:25.360
If it's not happening, or if it's happening.

901
00:47:25.039 --> 00:47:26.880
Too much, or if like we have people that hide

902
00:47:26.920 --> 00:47:30.320
in the closet to get undressed into their pajamas because

903
00:47:30.320 --> 00:47:33.679
they don't want their partner seeing them and thinking that

904
00:47:33.800 --> 00:47:35.639
like sex. Well, no, you have to be able to

905
00:47:35.679 --> 00:47:36.920
be like, hey, I just want to let you know

906
00:47:36.960 --> 00:47:39.320
I have that urge to go dress in the closet

907
00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:42.480
because my anxiety is really high that if I dress

908
00:47:42.920 --> 00:47:45.440
undressed in front of you, you're going to immediately want

909
00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:46.440
to just have sex.

910
00:47:46.960 --> 00:47:49.760
You start with that type of communication and then once.

911
00:47:49.599 --> 00:47:53.960
You guys both recognize the anxiety around it, it's right.

912
00:47:54.039 --> 00:47:57.679
It feels unstuck and like you want intimacy to feel

913
00:47:57.800 --> 00:48:02.360
free and flowing and beautiful, and couples have just made

914
00:48:02.360 --> 00:48:05.159
it into this big trust me, we've been there, this

915
00:48:05.239 --> 00:48:06.000
big old.

916
00:48:06.039 --> 00:48:10.320
Black cloud, and you're just like, no, it's good. Someone's connected.

917
00:48:10.360 --> 00:48:11.400
You could be with somebody.

918
00:48:11.440 --> 00:48:13.159
How do we get it back where there's not all

919
00:48:13.159 --> 00:48:16.679
this pain attached to it? And it's just by talking

920
00:48:17.239 --> 00:48:20.159
about what the feelings are around it, because then it

921
00:48:20.199 --> 00:48:24.760
doesn't get held as grief and loneliness and suffering.

922
00:48:24.239 --> 00:48:26.920
Individually and as much as you said right at the beginning,

923
00:48:27.039 --> 00:48:30.559
Like couple's counseling is it's not all about just communication

924
00:48:30.639 --> 00:48:33.039
because there's all this deepest stuff that has to be explored.

925
00:48:33.440 --> 00:48:36.199
Like at the end of the day, there is stuff

926
00:48:36.199 --> 00:48:38.039
that needs to be communicated, isn't there. There's a lot of

927
00:48:38.079 --> 00:48:42.239
conversations in couples that are just not happening. People just

928
00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:44.840
don't want to cause a conflict, or they don't want

929
00:48:45.039 --> 00:48:47.079
or they don't know how to say what they want

930
00:48:47.119 --> 00:48:47.440
to say.

931
00:48:48.519 --> 00:48:52.000
And it's I mean, oh my gosh, it's so skills based.

932
00:48:52.519 --> 00:48:55.360
When do we learn When do we learn to talk

933
00:48:55.400 --> 00:48:57.800
about intimacy and emotional intimacy?

934
00:48:57.960 --> 00:48:59.960
Like we're not basical and we're learning about that.

935
00:49:00.280 --> 00:49:02.800
We just learned like sex either do it or don't

936
00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:05.679
don't and then like don't do it, but then when

937
00:49:05.719 --> 00:49:08.000
you're in love do it. So now you're like, wait

938
00:49:08.039 --> 00:49:10.400
a second, I have this like a shameful thing about

939
00:49:10.679 --> 00:49:13.000
sex is bad, but when you love someone, now it's good.

940
00:49:13.159 --> 00:49:17.639
Like what no one talks about the skills of what

941
00:49:17.719 --> 00:49:22.159
it takes to have a healthy, vibrant sex life, emotional

942
00:49:22.199 --> 00:49:25.719
intimacy connected relationship. And so when couple are like, oh

943
00:49:25.760 --> 00:49:27.679
my god, we have to plan our intimacy.

944
00:49:28.239 --> 00:49:29.159
Yeah, you do.

945
00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:32.960
You have to plan and you have to build skills

946
00:49:33.360 --> 00:49:35.559
to really have a healthy communication.

947
00:49:36.199 --> 00:49:37.880
And it's okay.

948
00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:41.000
Because guess what, nothing's working for you now, so just

949
00:49:41.119 --> 00:49:43.960
try this. I mean, And that's why, like when I'm

950
00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:46.599
in session with a couple, I will I will have

951
00:49:46.719 --> 00:49:49.519
like you know, I'll move into the chair across and

952
00:49:49.559 --> 00:49:51.119
I'll say, you have to repeat after me.

953
00:49:51.159 --> 00:49:54.079
I know it sounds clunky. Well, I hear that that

954
00:49:54.159 --> 00:49:55.519
felt really hard for.

955
00:49:55.480 --> 00:49:58.480
You, because right they're so used to defending themselves and

956
00:49:58.480 --> 00:50:00.599
they don't want to hear their partners and so they

957
00:50:00.639 --> 00:50:04.079
can't validate. And I will do it ten times until

958
00:50:04.119 --> 00:50:07.639
they get that feeling of what it means to validate.

959
00:50:08.320 --> 00:50:10.760
I hear that that was really hard.

960
00:50:11.199 --> 00:50:15.079
Because they won't do it otherwise. So it's that coaching piece.

961
00:50:15.119 --> 00:50:17.119
It's a skill. And I said, see, I know it

962
00:50:17.199 --> 00:50:20.320
sounds clunky and you have to repeat after me, and

963
00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:23.880
it's almost like a coaching session. But that's okay because

964
00:50:23.880 --> 00:50:26.320
in the moment when you're not here in this session

965
00:50:26.360 --> 00:50:29.079
and you're at home and your partners comeing to you

966
00:50:29.119 --> 00:50:31.840
and they are in pain, instead of you being like,

967
00:50:31.880 --> 00:50:35.719
well I'm in pain too, you're gonna, wow, is there

968
00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:37.719
anything I can do right now to support you?

969
00:50:38.320 --> 00:50:39.960
You'll still be able to come back to you.

970
00:50:39.880 --> 00:50:42.880
Don't worry, but you're going to have that validation piece

971
00:50:42.920 --> 00:50:45.559
first where they feel heard and sane. It's just we

972
00:50:45.679 --> 00:50:48.440
don't have the skill to do it. If there is

973
00:50:48.440 --> 00:50:52.840
something uncomfortable, we try to defend it. Maybe that's not true,

974
00:50:53.000 --> 00:50:54.000
that's not what I said.

975
00:50:54.280 --> 00:50:55.760
You are totally wrong.

976
00:50:56.360 --> 00:50:59.199
It doesn't matter. You say, wow, I hear that. That

977
00:50:59.320 --> 00:51:02.000
was really pain for you. I'm so sorry what.

978
00:51:02.159 --> 00:51:03.440
Just happened that.

979
00:51:03.800 --> 00:51:06.719
That is not a skill humans have, but it is

980
00:51:06.760 --> 00:51:10.320
a skill we can build along with empathy and compassion.

981
00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:14.800
And when couples really get that and they stop digging.

982
00:51:14.480 --> 00:51:17.320
Their heels in that, it's just going to be some miraculous,

983
00:51:17.519 --> 00:51:21.559
awesome relationship forever with hot sex all the time.

984
00:51:22.119 --> 00:51:24.519
Like, no, not happening, or there would not be this

985
00:51:24.639 --> 00:51:29.079
high as a divorce rate. There's something else happening here. Yeah,

986
00:51:29.119 --> 00:51:29.679
And that's it.

987
00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:31.519
People don't want to they want they don't want to

988
00:51:31.559 --> 00:51:34.400
learn the skills. They want to think it just organic.

989
00:51:34.960 --> 00:51:38.360
But then you ask the question, where did I learn

990
00:51:38.440 --> 00:51:39.400
healthy communication?

991
00:51:39.719 --> 00:51:41.480
How do I go deeper with my partner?

992
00:51:41.800 --> 00:51:44.599
What is emotional intimacy and physical intimacy?

993
00:51:45.199 --> 00:51:45.679
We don't know.

994
00:51:46.199 --> 00:51:49.119
I imagine that that is much easier to have those

995
00:51:49.159 --> 00:51:53.199
conversations with somebody skilled in the room. I mean, I

996
00:51:53.239 --> 00:51:56.239
know that you have your online program that you sell

997
00:51:56.280 --> 00:51:58.400
on your website that people can sign up, and that's

998
00:51:58.400 --> 00:52:00.960
self paced. What's the feedby that you get on that

999
00:52:01.679 --> 00:52:04.440
people being able to take that and do it themselves

1000
00:52:04.480 --> 00:52:06.760
without having somebody in the room to help.

1001
00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:11.760
So this is really difficult and hard for some couples.

1002
00:52:12.400 --> 00:52:13.320
It's pretty like we.

1003
00:52:13.320 --> 00:52:16.360
Have our videos and everything for the online there are

1004
00:52:16.559 --> 00:52:21.599
some couples that need the third person in the room.

1005
00:52:21.679 --> 00:52:24.039
That's just going to be the objective. So people have

1006
00:52:24.159 --> 00:52:27.159
reached out all over it, like do you and EJ?

1007
00:52:27.920 --> 00:52:30.280
Can you coach us through? Because the intimacy series we

1008
00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:34.480
have it where it's like the communication series is first

1009
00:52:34.559 --> 00:52:36.920
and then the intimacy series and you will see if

1010
00:52:36.960 --> 00:52:41.079
people fall off right in the first intimacy exercise.

1011
00:52:41.599 --> 00:52:43.800
So we open the second company.

1012
00:52:44.119 --> 00:52:47.159
We're our studio is so we can start doing global

1013
00:52:47.199 --> 00:52:50.280
coaching because people are asking for it. But I would

1014
00:52:50.360 --> 00:52:53.960
say so for couples, now I say listen, go talk

1015
00:52:54.000 --> 00:52:57.320
about this piece, like go get a couple's therapist, go

1016
00:52:57.400 --> 00:52:59.960
talk about this piece, what's happening, what's triggering while you

1017
00:53:00.039 --> 00:53:02.719
feel like it's really hard, you know, and we will

1018
00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:04.840
start offering coaching sessions down the road.

1019
00:53:04.840 --> 00:53:06.239
But if you get stuck.

1020
00:53:05.960 --> 00:53:08.440
In it and you feel like you can't move through it,

1021
00:53:08.559 --> 00:53:10.079
that's a very good sign that you.

1022
00:53:10.199 --> 00:53:13.239
Just need someone else in that room or remotely.

1023
00:53:13.239 --> 00:53:17.159
There's great relationship coaches online to help you through it.

1024
00:53:17.199 --> 00:53:20.840
But there I would say, we're really good at saying

1025
00:53:20.920 --> 00:53:24.360
listen this if you are in a lot of pain

1026
00:53:24.519 --> 00:53:25.719
with your partner, like.

1027
00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:28.400
This could actually cause more harm than good.

1028
00:53:28.760 --> 00:53:33.559
Because you don't have that person helping right coach exactly

1029
00:53:33.599 --> 00:53:36.920
how to feel in window of tolerance and emotion regulation.

1030
00:53:37.480 --> 00:53:39.880
But there's some couples that just do it because they

1031
00:53:39.920 --> 00:53:40.199
love it.

1032
00:53:40.239 --> 00:53:42.480
Like the premiere, It'll we have more couples in the

1033
00:53:42.519 --> 00:53:44.280
premiere it are like, oh, we just want to do

1034
00:53:44.320 --> 00:53:44.960
this to know all.

1035
00:53:44.840 --> 00:53:46.159
About each other, you know.

1036
00:53:46.199 --> 00:53:48.760
We try to make it super affordable because that was

1037
00:53:48.880 --> 00:53:51.320
my heart. It started over COVID and then it just

1038
00:53:51.800 --> 00:53:54.760
grew into this at home piece. But yeah, I would

1039
00:53:54.760 --> 00:53:58.679
just say I think couples know if there's that hard

1040
00:53:59.239 --> 00:54:06.320
like feeling of tension, resentment, disdain, dislike. That sounds like

1041
00:54:06.360 --> 00:54:08.719
a good saying that you might need someone to really

1042
00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:13.280
help soften those edges first, whether that's individually or a

1043
00:54:13.400 --> 00:54:14.360
relationship coach.

1044
00:54:14.800 --> 00:54:18.159
Yeah, and before you go, Tara, So you talked about

1045
00:54:18.199 --> 00:54:20.920
starting off with a safe word, and we've talked about,

1046
00:54:21.280 --> 00:54:23.320
you know, attachment and how that plays out, and your

1047
00:54:23.360 --> 00:54:29.760
triggers and cultivating your own practices of self compassion, internal safety,

1048
00:54:29.800 --> 00:54:31.559
all of that. I'm curious to know. So in your

1049
00:54:31.679 --> 00:54:34.599
online program or in your kind of typical every couple

1050
00:54:34.639 --> 00:54:39.000
is different, I know, but in a typical couples counseling process, like,

1051
00:54:39.079 --> 00:54:41.119
what are the kind of key pillars, Like, what are

1052
00:54:41.159 --> 00:54:43.559
the key things that you're going Yeah, you said safe

1053
00:54:43.599 --> 00:54:46.480
word for example, but are they sort of key gills

1054
00:54:46.599 --> 00:54:50.119
or milestones or pillars that are that everybody kind of

1055
00:54:50.159 --> 00:54:53.199
goes through that are sort of the essential processes that

1056
00:54:53.199 --> 00:54:54.239
people need to learn.

1057
00:54:54.440 --> 00:54:56.440
Well, we call it the shift. Oh my god, that's

1058
00:54:56.480 --> 00:54:59.159
such a big question. Sorry, that's huge. Should have started

1059
00:54:59.159 --> 00:55:02.480
with that, like what our couples go through? And I

1060
00:55:02.480 --> 00:55:03.199
feel like it could be.

1061
00:55:03.480 --> 00:55:06.320
That's so we developed a model that's beginning, middle, and

1062
00:55:06.440 --> 00:55:10.280
end right. Beginning is like, okay, we are out of

1063
00:55:10.280 --> 00:55:13.159
our window of tolerance. We are fighting. It is awful.

1064
00:55:13.639 --> 00:55:15.800
We hate each other, we can't talk to each other.

1065
00:55:15.880 --> 00:55:19.039
Everything feels tense, right, So we start with like helping

1066
00:55:19.039 --> 00:55:22.800
them understand who they are at a core level, what's

1067
00:55:22.840 --> 00:55:25.800
happening for them, what are the triggers from each other.

1068
00:55:25.880 --> 00:55:27.639
That's where we kind of go into attachment theory.

1069
00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:31.559
We do the whole genogram with them, timeline birth until

1070
00:55:31.599 --> 00:55:34.760
they need right. Then we're like, okay, oh my god,

1071
00:55:34.800 --> 00:55:36.400
so I used to hide in the closet when you

1072
00:55:36.400 --> 00:55:38.840
hear mom and dad fighting. Okay, why what would happen

1073
00:55:38.880 --> 00:55:40.880
to you? I would get really scared. Right, So we

1074
00:55:41.039 --> 00:55:43.800
just get to see them as little humans from up

1075
00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:47.000
until they meet. Then we go through their relationship timeline

1076
00:55:47.440 --> 00:55:50.039
first day up until now, and we start to identify

1077
00:55:50.119 --> 00:55:53.920
all the crevices. Oh god, that was a big thing

1078
00:55:53.960 --> 00:55:57.440
that happened, and when you guys never talked about it before. Okay, okay,

1079
00:55:57.480 --> 00:56:00.239
so you just waited and you thought by putting get

1080
00:56:00.320 --> 00:56:04.360
under the rug that it would just be have resolution.

1081
00:56:04.519 --> 00:56:05.920
Okay, Well we know that doesn't work.

1082
00:56:05.960 --> 00:56:10.239
So we help them identify early on what skills they

1083
00:56:10.280 --> 00:56:14.360
didn't have and that's why infidelity happened, or that's why

1084
00:56:14.880 --> 00:56:17.760
you know a ton of negative patterns and the communication happened.

1085
00:56:18.159 --> 00:56:20.559
So once we get to that, that's like the middle.

1086
00:56:20.679 --> 00:56:23.519
There's this thing that happens, and it's called the messy middle,

1087
00:56:24.400 --> 00:56:27.239
and it's like couples are like, we're not coming back ever,

1088
00:56:27.840 --> 00:56:29.440
and I'm like, oh, you guys, I even have a

1089
00:56:29.480 --> 00:56:31.400
paper on this, because I remind them in the very

1090
00:56:31.480 --> 00:56:34.000
first session there will be a part where you don't

1091
00:56:34.039 --> 00:56:37.880
want to come back. That is the point of change,

1092
00:56:38.280 --> 00:56:40.440
and I'm going to remind you of it, even if

1093
00:56:40.440 --> 00:56:43.199
it's in an email because you cancel your session. So

1094
00:56:43.360 --> 00:56:47.199
messy middle means that their dynamic is starting to shift,

1095
00:56:48.000 --> 00:56:50.599
even if they've been in dysfunction for twenty years, and

1096
00:56:50.639 --> 00:56:51.480
that feels awful.

1097
00:56:51.840 --> 00:56:55.400
We don't like change. No, no, we want things.

1098
00:56:55.199 --> 00:56:59.199
To say the same homeostasis, right, while homeostasis is getting

1099
00:56:59.239 --> 00:57:02.559
disruptive because now people are caring more and now they're

1100
00:57:02.599 --> 00:57:05.079
more aware, and it feels really bad.

1101
00:57:05.199 --> 00:57:08.039
Let's just go back. I don't want to do this anymore.

1102
00:57:08.800 --> 00:57:12.039
Usually takes one to two weeks of a little destabilization

1103
00:57:12.159 --> 00:57:14.960
in the middle, and then the shift happens.

1104
00:57:15.159 --> 00:57:17.880
We call it the shift. I even have a podcast.

1105
00:57:17.480 --> 00:57:20.840
Called This Shift where it's like we've got into a

1106
00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:26.239
fight and instead of twenty four hours of being apart,

1107
00:57:26.360 --> 00:57:30.239
we were only apart for three hours, and we're like, really,

1108
00:57:30.360 --> 00:57:33.920
how calm well now because there's this understanding and we're

1109
00:57:33.960 --> 00:57:37.400
repairing it more quickly and we understand each other better.

1110
00:57:37.880 --> 00:57:40.159
We literally call it the shift, and we measure it

1111
00:57:40.159 --> 00:57:44.039
with intensity frequency duration, and the shift is like we

1112
00:57:44.079 --> 00:57:47.880
can be together in difficult times and we're not using

1113
00:57:47.880 --> 00:57:50.840
the thread of divorce or really mean things to say

1114
00:57:50.840 --> 00:57:54.800
to each other. So that's the shift. And again it's

1115
00:57:54.880 --> 00:57:58.719
intensity frequency duration. Couples are noticing it's less frequent, it's

1116
00:57:58.760 --> 00:58:02.599
less intensive, less off, and then you start to notice

1117
00:58:02.639 --> 00:58:04.480
that our final part is new.

1118
00:58:04.360 --> 00:58:06.159
Story, old story.

1119
00:58:06.760 --> 00:58:10.679
They are now acting in their relationship from their positive

1120
00:58:10.719 --> 00:58:11.480
core beliefs.

1121
00:58:11.559 --> 00:58:14.000
I am safe, I am okay, we can.

1122
00:58:13.840 --> 00:58:17.039
Handle this, versus I'm not okay, I'm not safe, we

1123
00:58:17.079 --> 00:58:18.960
can't handle this, we're broken, there's.

1124
00:58:18.760 --> 00:58:19.599
Something wrong with me.

1125
00:58:20.079 --> 00:58:24.239
Well, now they are reinforcing their positive core beliefs individually

1126
00:58:24.360 --> 00:58:27.840
and as a couple's dynamic. And that's like when we're

1127
00:58:27.880 --> 00:58:30.280
sitting in there, it's usually about forty six months and

1128
00:58:30.280 --> 00:58:33.000
we're like, there's nothing really.

1129
00:58:32.800 --> 00:58:35.440
To talk about, right, we know old.

1130
00:58:35.239 --> 00:58:40.440
Story, news story is happening, and that Hey, you guys

1131
00:58:40.480 --> 00:58:43.000
are still going to have road bumps, Like, but you

1132
00:58:43.159 --> 00:58:48.119
have learned how to navigate difficult times together. You've learned

1133
00:58:48.159 --> 00:58:50.599
how to remove yourself if you are out of your

1134
00:58:50.639 --> 00:58:54.679
window of tolerance. You've learned how to set boundaries with

1135
00:58:54.719 --> 00:58:58.280
each other and agreements that you will be okay even

1136
00:58:58.320 --> 00:59:01.880
when you're not okay. I've learned to love different parts

1137
00:59:01.920 --> 00:59:04.679
of each other that you didn't even know were there,

1138
00:59:04.800 --> 00:59:07.119
Like EJ's part of avoidance, I'm like, I hate you,

1139
00:59:07.960 --> 00:59:09.639
and now I'm like, oh my god, that's his little

1140
00:59:09.639 --> 00:59:11.639
wounded part from when he was like nine.

1141
00:59:11.840 --> 00:59:13.960
I love that part, even though it's super annoying.

1142
00:59:14.840 --> 00:59:17.199
Yeah, I mean, I know that's like a long answer

1143
00:59:17.280 --> 00:59:20.320
to your question, but it's like it's such a process

1144
00:59:20.360 --> 00:59:22.679
cast but you see it in all the stages. Now

1145
00:59:22.679 --> 00:59:25.079
that we've done it for so long, it's like and

1146
00:59:25.199 --> 00:59:28.599
every couple is different, but you can pinpoint it. Like

1147
00:59:28.679 --> 00:59:31.360
now that we have all of these other therapists trained

1148
00:59:31.400 --> 00:59:33.880
in our model, they're like, oh my gosh, the messy

1149
00:59:33.920 --> 00:59:36.840
metals happening I'm like, oh no, we didn't even know

1150
00:59:36.960 --> 00:59:39.199
it was a thing until like two years in. I'm like, EJ,

1151
00:59:39.360 --> 00:59:42.360
why after session ten do people want to leave?

1152
00:59:43.199 --> 00:59:45.199
Like? And we just started to do all the research

1153
00:59:45.239 --> 00:59:46.000
around what's.

1154
00:59:45.840 --> 00:59:48.519
Happening there, like we I mean, we've learned through this

1155
00:59:48.559 --> 00:59:51.119
whole process too, and it keeps getting better, and now

1156
00:59:51.119 --> 00:59:53.079
I'm revising everything now.

1157
00:59:53.079 --> 00:59:54.199
I'm like, it's just crazy.

1158
00:59:54.239 --> 00:59:56.840
I keep wanting it to get even more better and better.

1159
00:59:56.719 --> 00:59:57.159
Better, better.

1160
00:59:57.559 --> 01:00:01.679
That's that's so natural though, because it's constantly evolving and

1161
01:00:02.079 --> 01:00:04.679
growing in your learning from experience. And I just wanted

1162
01:00:04.719 --> 01:00:06.000
to ask you too, Tara. No, I said that was

1163
01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:09.320
the last question. But while you were talking then I

1164
01:00:09.360 --> 01:00:12.079
was thinking so essentially, for people who were like listening

1165
01:00:12.079 --> 01:00:14.800
to this and you've got their own relationship issues, it

1166
01:00:14.880 --> 01:00:19.480
sounds like whatever people show up with, like it's he's

1167
01:00:19.480 --> 01:00:22.119
got a gambling problem, he gambled all our money, he

1168
01:00:22.440 --> 01:00:25.159
works all weekend, he's never home, he yells at the kids,

1169
01:00:25.159 --> 01:00:27.039
he's not the kind of parent that I want for

1170
01:00:27.239 --> 01:00:29.559
our and then and he doesn't listen to anything I say.

1171
01:00:29.880 --> 01:00:33.239
Whatever the problem is that they show up with, Essentially,

1172
01:00:35.239 --> 01:00:39.320
the process is pretty much the same it's working out

1173
01:00:38.880 --> 01:00:43.960
what causes that behavior. What's what's driving the gambling or

1174
01:00:43.960 --> 01:00:46.519
the working late, or the avoiding or the flirting with

1175
01:00:46.559 --> 01:00:49.280
other women or whatever the thing is, right, it's getting

1176
01:00:49.320 --> 01:00:50.880
underneath to what's driving that.

1177
01:00:51.559 --> 01:00:53.880
Yes, and I love that you said behavior because we

1178
01:00:53.960 --> 01:00:57.000
see our person as the source of this suffering. It's

1179
01:00:57.079 --> 01:01:01.440
actually a behavior that they're doing, but it's not them,

1180
01:01:02.400 --> 01:01:04.719
you know. So I love that we can start to

1181
01:01:04.760 --> 01:01:09.360
see people as whole humans that are imperfect, that have

1182
01:01:09.559 --> 01:01:15.119
behaviors that are definitely not cool at times, but if

1183
01:01:15.159 --> 01:01:18.000
they have that willingness to be like, you know what, that.

1184
01:01:17.880 --> 01:01:20.079
Behavior is just not working for me anymore.

1185
01:01:20.480 --> 01:01:24.159
I'm willing to look at this right in a realistic way.

1186
01:01:25.119 --> 01:01:28.920
I mean, it's again secure attachment cast I can be

1187
01:01:29.039 --> 01:01:31.920
who I am, even though there's parts of me that

1188
01:01:31.960 --> 01:01:36.360
are super broken or have had bad behaviors in the past,

1189
01:01:36.440 --> 01:01:38.760
But like I am, I'm.

1190
01:01:38.639 --> 01:01:43.679
Still loved, you know. And it's huge too, Like the infidelity.

1191
01:01:43.079 --> 01:01:45.519
Piece and the amount of like sex addicts that we've

1192
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talked with, like knowing that their partners now can accept

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the part of them that was an addict at that.

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Time is so beautiful, huge. Oh, the healing is just incredible.

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We're I mean, we have had couples that have gone

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through adelity on our podcast, but like more so and

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more so because couples realize that there is healing to it,

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Like seventy percent, Look, it cures me and my steps.

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Seventy percent of couples who go to counseling after infidelity

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actually make it work. But you would normally think, oh,

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if that happens, we're done. Yeah, you know, but seventy

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percent of couples who go for counseling with infidelity actually

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turn out to be stronger and even more deeply connected

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than they ever thought they could be just putting it

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out there because that's the thing, like when it gets

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to that point, something is really wrong and now we're

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acting out of secrecy or whatever it might be.

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Yeah, it's real good.

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I think there's people can take a lot of hope

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from that that from the worst from the crisis can come,

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the growth can come, all of the healing and it

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could be better than ever. Yeah, this has been so

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this has been such a great conversation, Tarr. But I

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could keep you here for three hours, but nobody's got

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the time for that. But thank you so much. This

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has been a pleasure.

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I loved it.

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When you were like kind of going through everything we

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talked about, I was like, oh my gosh, we did

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go through a lot.

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Crappy to Happy is created and produced by me castun.

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If you enjoy the show, please hit the follow button

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01:03:16.840 --> 01:03:19.239
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01:03:19.440 --> 01:03:21.159
Share with a friend to get me into the ears

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01:03:21.199 --> 01:03:23.000
of more lovely listeners, and I would love for you

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01:03:23.039 --> 01:03:25.360
to leave a five star rating and review. Thank you

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so much for being here and I cannot wait to

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catch you next week for another fabulous episode of Crappy

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to Happy.