How to Save Your Relationship with Tarah Kerwin, Couples Therapist

0:04 This is Crappita Happy and I am your host, Cass Dunn. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist. I'm mindfulness meditation teacher and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their field and who have something of value to share that will help you feel less crappy and more happy. My guest today is Tara Kerwin, who is a marriage and family therapist from the US. Tara, alongside her husband EJ, is co founder of Relationship Renovation Counseling Center, and together they also host a top rnded podcast called The Relationship Renovation Podcast. Relationships is such a huge topic and Tara has really her talk in their space.

1:01 Although she has been a licensed therapist since her early twenties, it wasn't until she was in her mid thirties and met her now husband that she realized that she had her own trauma that had been impacting her ability to cultivate really healthy relationships. So together, the two of them recognized that while they were really experts in this space, they each had their own work to do in order to ensure that their relationship survived and thrived. Tara recognized she had a whole lot of past trauma that she thought she had dealt with, but that she hadn't. She has really cultivated a lot of self awareness and now they have built a relationship that they can both feel very proud of. But they also have used what they have learned in their personal lives to develop a signature couples therapy program. So in addition to the face to face work that they do with people, they also have an online program, which Tara and I will talk about in this episode. We talked about the impact of early attachment wounds, past traumas that impact current relationships, problems that arise when there is a lack of intimacy in a relationship, and how you navigate those conversations. We cover so much ground in this I know it's going to be relevant to so many people. So at that further Ado, let's jump in. Here's Tara. Tara, Welcome to the Crappy to Happy podcast.

2:19 So happy to be here. I love the name. I love the name of your podcast, Relationship Renovation. I bet that gets a whole lot of listeners just because of the title. Yes, exactly, like, what does this mean to renovate my relationship? That means many things. Yeah, so you are a relationship counselor you're a licensed therapist in the US along with your husband, and you run a relationship counseling center together. I mean, this is a huge topic for any audience, and especially with the podcast Crappy to Happy, you know, relationships up for many people a big source of distress. Broadly, what are the issues that most people by the time they're getting to see you, what are the kinds of issues that you're seeing day in and day out.

3:07 Okay, how much time do we have? So I would say unfortunately, like eighty percent of the couples we see it is like either this or we're done. So they most humans wait until a crisis happens to try to repair it. So unfortunately, like eighty percent of the couples are already in some kind of crisis mode. And it's infidelity, emotional, physical infidelity, it's poor communication, it's been resentment for twenty years, Intimacy is totally nonexistent, you name it, we see it, and my heart wants so badly to do more preventative measures, and we've tried to do like relationship building skills for newly committed couples. Guess what, No, it doesn't work because they're good already. And so I think that people just don't understand once a relationship hits a certain point, there are so many skills needed. And I learned this myself in order to make a relationship last.

4:14 We can't just keep our fingers cross it. It'll stay that way forever. So unfortunately, yeah, people wait until the last you know, either though we're divorced, or we're done or. A threat, and then here we are. It's a pretty heightened anxious place when they come in to see us. And I totally get it because I was right there with them. Yeah, do you want to just talk about that? Maybe because you have your own personal story, don't you of having oh yeah, maybe not the happiest relationships and then having to really do the work yourself different it, I. Know, I was like, what I mean, I've been a marriage and family therapist for twenty two years, so I knew when I was a little girl, like I didn't know what was called the Copples therapist, but I knew I was and to help couples because.

5:02 Of I don't know what was just this, Like when I would. See couples in distress, I would cry for them. I just had this empathic ability to feel people's pain and suffering and being in my own like pretty awful, neglectful childhood with a ton of trauma. I knew that I. Was going to get through it because I had a resilient soul from a young age and that one day I would help others. And so I was a great marriage counselor. Yet in my own life like, yeah, this relationship isn't working, This relationship isn't working, this relationship isn't working. And I didn't realize just how much my trauma. I thought I was just like this really resilient soul.

5:44 I didn't recognize how much my trauma was impacting my ability to stay in a healthy relationship because I just didn't even know what that was. And so when I met EJ, who of course was another therapist, like it took another therapist. And when I met Ej, he just had this emotional safety to him that I've never had in another relationship, Like he just would go deeper, and I just I knew that I didn't want to leave him the way I left other relationships, and so, I mean, I was like, okay, I'll marry you. I was thirty eight. I had awaited for a really long time, and then you know, we got married and he had two boys who were two and four, who were delightful, and then on our honeymoon, we get pregnant with twins.

6:33 Oh wow. So I went from zero to four kids under the age of five. Six months later, the twins, by the way, both had colic, like, not not just for weeks, for nine months, and so I was like, I'm out of here. I did not sign up for this. What is this awfulness? I mean, I was so stressed, so overwhelmed, had no idea that twins and colic would and nursing every hour. And that's when I wanted to leave EJ. I was like, I this is too much for me. I had never been that overwhelmed in my whole life. And that's when I, you know, I just called them one day crying. I was like, if the two of us we're pretty great people, we've got the skills, we're therapists. If we're having this heart of a time navigating this new transition to blended family and twins, I'm like we've got to a figure our shit out.

7:31 B we have to help other couples in our community. And that was in twenty sixteen, some almost ten years ago, and now we have a staff of fifteen therapists and created this model that has helped couples. We have an at home program too, so it's actually helped couples worldwide. But it all started with like I knew I didn't want to leave, but we had to figure out why this was so hard. That was kind of the start of our relationship Renovation Counseling Center. And we're still together and our twins are eleven, and we made it. But it was really well guard. Because what I thought, like I thought EG and I had the skills, and when our life got stressful, he got defensive and avoidant. I got more anxious, and we literally disconnected.

8:19 We did not know how to figure it out. And I feel like through our own experience and everything we had to do to develop our emotional safety and healthy communication. Like that's how we're. So people just really trust us because it's we had to go through it ourselves. So when couples come in and sit in front of us, we're like, oh, yeah, we know it might not be the same situation, but it's the same feeling alone, alone in it and disconnected. And it looks like you want different things, but actually you want the same thing. You just don't know how to say it. And for us, the intimacy piece was big because after the twins were born, no, like none of my body wanted any of it. That was a different person.

9:03 Yeah, there is so much there to explore. I mean, first up to acknowledge that, I mean, one baby is a bomb in a relationship, but twins. I haven't had twins. I've only got one child, but I can only imagine the stress of twins. And then you add somebody else's to kids into your life as well, Like, that's a lot. That's a lot for any person to deal with. But what you have highlighted just then is the different ways that you and EJ dealt with how you handle pressure, basically because of your own early experience. So is that kind of where you tend to start with couples that come to see you, Yes.

9:46 And a nuts Shelley, Yes, but you can't go there too soon because you kind of have to peel the layers off a little because what the first thing I did. I was so overwhelmed and resembl that EJ brought up this stress in my life. I'm like, come, dear you, what happened? Is that not my stuff? I was so resentful that I couldn't even hear. I did not have compassion for him. I did not want to be vulnerable with him. I was just angry at him. But even the sight of him, I was like, oh, and I had never had that before. And so that's what the couples we see like. They I mean, they sit on like opposite ends of the sofa. They got the pillows over them.

10:29 I know it very well. I need to start getting very small love seats so they can't sit so far. So the very first thing I did, and this was before each and I even started our Couples Counting Center, is if I was feeling really resemful of him, I call a code word and I say, ej. Ours was burnt toast? Why? Because I kept forgetting I had toast and the toaster because I was always so dame busy and my coffee would be cold in the microwave, freaking toast would be burnt. And I just said, EJ. When I say burnt toast. That means I'm not good. I'm not going to say anything that's kind or loving because I'm not in a kind or loving space, and I need to take my.

11:11 Own time out. And so either that's you taking all of the kids and our dogs just taking them away somewhere in the desert for ike, or I'm going to go in my room and don't let anybody come in there, like I just need to kind of calm my nervous system. And so that was the first thing I knew. I looked at him in resentment disdain, and I knew that that wasn't my heart, but it was for sure my overwhelmed Like how dare you make me feel so overwhelmed? That was my story. So then when I started taking the time outs for myself, I went through a little protocol. I don't know if you've ever heard of Tara Rock. Yeah, she's like one of my favorite people in the home white world, and she has this rain protocol, Recognize.

11:57 Allow, investigate, Nurture. I would just go and my bedroom and cry, and I would listen to Tara Brock whatever her latest podcast was, it didn't matter. And I remember she took me through the rain technique. It's actually one of the biggest tools for mindfulness that we use at our center for couples. But and I would be like, what's happening here? And so I started to understand that my overwhelm was a result from when I was very little, so much trauma, so much abuse. I have a twin sister too, and. We both had it pretty bad, but she was more She would be more reactive, where I was like keep the peace kind of person because I didn't, you know, want my step parents to get crazy, so I would like try to protect my sister all of the time.

12:47 So just that feeling of like overwhelm and trying. To keep us safe like that was the feeling that EJ triggered me. But I would never have known that had I not gone deeper. My nervous system doesn't know if it was thirty five years ago or today, but it was this feeling of I can't. Handle this and I'm not safe. EJ. Just walking in the tour could trigger that. So I started to recognize, oh my gosh, I haven't even hit on my trauma. I've just avoided it my whole life and helped others. Awesome, but no, and so. That was so the beginning was code words, so we helped couples stop reinforcing their negative it's traumatic for them, like they are not kind to each other, they are not making each other feel wanted, they are not making each other feel like they're in each other's care.

13:37 That's trauma, right. We all want to feel a sense of belonging, So codewards one of the first things so they can just have some respite from that, and then we start to help them understand what those negative core beliefs are that are being triggered. For me, mine was I'm not safe and I'm insignificant. And when our person next to us can hear that, it's not that they are not. The direct route or cause of that suffering. That Actually, this started to get developed very early on because we use attachment theory in our practice. They're like, oh my god, I'm not the worst person in the world. Now compassion starts to get built, and now your partner can look at you and say, you are significant, you are safe. I'm so sorry the behaviors trigger that, but now I have a better understanding. So when both partners have a better understanding, then they can move through the challenges of having a relationship, which there are many, with compassion and empathy and a much broader understanding of like how we are from like young kids to now, like we're one person, but you know, when we cause suffering to another, it feels like we're the worst person in the world and we don't have space to see their suffering.

14:56 But again, that process allows you know, when I come to EJ and be like, listen, when you said this, this is what happened, he had no idea that it was triggering some physical abuse from my stepdad or dad. Yeah, he was just like, wow, thank you for helping me understand. And I said, it's not about asking you to not do that behavior again, because you will. You will avoid, you will defend yourself, you will walk away. It will drive me crazy. Can't ask you to be this perfect person for me not to trigger my trauma. But if you can have a little bit more understanding and I can do my own work and come back and say how it impacted me, Well, now we're moving through it, not pushing it under the rug.

15:38 And you know, there's some conversations that are easier than others. You know, intimacy is much harder that's a more vulnerable conversation. But when you get the skills of developing that kind compassionate communication around each other's suffering, all healing begins right there. And so we have a very high success rate. Only because we take them through this process and it takes about six months, but it is we're not just doing communication. We like, look at you from the time you are in your mother's room until you met this person, and we go through all of it and the layers of it and getting deep within what those negative core beliefs are about yourself. And I think that's why even if couples don't stay together, which sometimes that's the case, they have more clarity now and they did this for their kids and now they can be kind co.

16:32 Apherance exactly exactly. That's huge because we're not like you have to be together. Yeah, of course, but Tara, what you just said there, and you obviously you opened with the fact that EJ's a therapist as well, and so he obviously while being a therapist, I know, as much as anybody doesn't make you the perfect evolved person, like you know, we can know all of this stuff but still have your own issues and patterns that you fall into. But he obviously was a person who was really like you said, he was emotionally safe and he was very available and able to hear that from you. Yeah, it sounds like it does really require two people to be involved in this, doesn't it, Because potentially while you were talking then I was thinking, I can already imagine in certain relationships with certain individuals, somebody almost weaponizing your trauma like ah see it is or because you're fucked up, like it is all because you're the one with the trauma. You know, Like it's got to be a really safe space for people to be able to be open about. Okay, this is my childhood wounds and this is how it's affecting me in the moment.

17:39 And I have goosebumps only because like eg didn't even recognize how much healing he had to do with his defense and as he just thought he was like this mindful Buddhist right, I was like, oh no, no, sir, I feel that region of there. I can feel it. I Mean, it took me years for me to always challenge like, honey, there's something else happening here. Trust me life, And so he trusted me right, gave me the benefit of the doubt that I wasn't saying that to Like because he was always emotionally available, but he had some stuff that was very stuck to from his past relationship and his childhoods. But here was the thing. Because we're a therapist and we do what we do, we were compelled to heal and grow. Most people aren't in this field.

18:27 They don't start a podcast. It's not as compelling because I can't be an impostor. I can't have a couple's counseling center and have all these couples I do these things and not do them for myself. So like, we were compelled to do the work together and I get the piece. For other couples, they're not, And so one person might be way more proactive than the other. Again, Eji and I were both proactive, I think because of the types of humans we are, and we really wanted to make this work, and we really. Wanted to support other couples. But we have many individuals that come in and their partners just not ready, and we say listen, it just takes one person to be the change agent in this dynamic, because if you start having better boundaries, they can't treat you that way anymore, right or so we see a ton of individuals at our center too, because not all couples are ready and yeah, and there are people like we've had to deal with, right, access to narcissistic qualities, sociopathic.

19:30 The term gas lighting. Please, I don't want to hear it anymore, like from over it. But it's like, you know, and we can't do there. You have to have some type of shared goal to do the couple's work that we offer, and so if we don't, we say, let's do some individual work first, so we know when it's We do a pretty lengthy consultation process to make sure that couple's are. Ready and not necessarily. Like you have to be all in, but just that there is openness to healings, suffering and whatever the way that looks, because we're. All uniquely different. When couples are in conflict, how does somebody know whether this is my trauma or this is my issue, or this relationship's just wrong for me, or you're just not the right person for me. How does somebody make that?

20:21 Because I think people get in their heads and really struggle to figure that out on their own. Are there signs like, are there things that people can explore for themselves or questions they can ask themselves that might help them have a clue about that. Yes, So I. Would say, so, first of all, you're just like in you're in the state of ambivalence, and do I even want to be with this person? Should we be together? The first piece is like how receptive is your partner right to doing some of the work, And let's just say that they're not. But you're recognizing that you're not happy, that you're sad that you don't have that energy at a piece of you anymore.

21:02 Like that was me. I just felt. Overwhelmed and just down and depressed, like this isn't me and it's got to be this person causing it. But I was like, Okay, I know right as a therapist since I was twenty two, I cannot have emotion regulation based on external circumstances. That I have to feel safe internally for me, no matter what the external is, and so I would do a lot of internal emotion regulation first to have clarity. So I'm not expecting others to heal my wounds, which I used to do all of the time, And I feel like that gave me a sense of empowerment.

21:45 So then I wasn't ambivalent. It was a lot of my own individual work, and now I have a choice. And then you get to make decisions based on empowerment or choices based on feeling empowered versus ambivalent, which you don't know where to go. And still you know what it takes. This is the latest research. Seven to ten years of being in misery to reach out for counseling, seven to ten years. Imagine what your little body does. Seven to ten years of being miserable or ambivalent. You just start to feel you lose any sense of agency and I'm just going to accept it is what it is. So for me, it's very much an individual like how do I get more empowered so I can make a choice that feels more clear to me?

22:31 And then right there's tons of books and podcasts and just the rain protocol for me is I mean I didn't necessarily, I mean I still do weekly therapy. I always will, but. Just having that by myself in the bedroom, listening Toatara Brock's voice like that was enough for me to soften inward and be like okay, like EJ's not a monster, but I feel unsafe around him, I don't know, and then you want to have a partner that if you have someone that's consistently not taking any accountability, like now it's toxic. Now that just doesn't feel good. And I'm like a healer and I'm a people pleaser. So I used to stay in those relationships because I'm like, oh, like they'll get better. I'm like, like I would overfunction at every level. But again, it was once I started to do a lot of the individual work, I just felt really empowered that whatever choice I made, I would be okay no.

23:27 Matter what it does, sound like it all really starts with like, regardless of your whatever your personal history, is what you said before about cultivating safety within yourself and not looking outside for somebody else to create that or do whatever it is that you personally feel like you need for them to do. Like that's a starting point for anybody, isn't it. Yes, it's just hard because we like instant gratification and to feel like taken care of by our other person, and so when you have to do that work, it's more delayed gratification, but it's so worth it. It's freedom because and here's another thing, right, I love statistics. First divorce rate right now is forty nine point three percent, Second time married is sixty seven percent, Third marriage is seventy four percent.

24:20 It follows you. You could marry the exact opposite and your stuff will follow you. So doing the work, regardless of whatever relationship you're in right now is so worth it. So you don't repeat those steps. You don't repeat those unconscious attachments. Shall I say? We don't get better at marriage the more times we do it. No, And it's like, I mean we have people like I married the exact opposite person. How is this happening again? And then those people feel like they're uniquely broken. I'm like, no, no, look at the statistics right you just you know, we want to run from triggers and we want to be like, no, this is a bad situation. We shouldn't be in it now. Yes, our some unsafe situations that you do need to make yourself safe and get out of there. Trust me, we have those too, But like it is so important to stay.

25:10 With uncomfortable and learn from it. And we have. This big chalkboard right when you walk into our lobby and it says, our partner is our greatest teacher, be patient for the lessons. This is the one person that will trigger all of your shit that you don't even know about. But it's like you don't want to stay around for it because it's really annoying. Yeah, but if you really sit with it, I say, guys, like EJ's in my blind spot. He's going to tell me when I can't, you know, see something, because I trust that he has the best interest. For me, like he wants me to be happy. Yeah. So when we usually kind of say it in that way, it's like, Okay, I'm willing to be uncomfortable for like six months.

25:53 You guys, okay, make be longer than that, but you never know. You mentioned the attachment theory infolms of the work that you do, which is obviously great. I mean out there, just in general on social media now, there's loads of people who are talking about, oh I'm an avoidant, or if you're in a relationship with it with an anxious or you know, people are talking about attachment out there. There is this kind of preconception. I guess that if you're avoidant, you're probably going to hook up with somebody who's anxious, and that's a disaster. Is it possible for people who have these attachment styles based on the early history to make it work. Like if they are one of those couples anxious, avoidant, you're triggering me every time we have a conflict. Is their hope for those people?

26:42 It is like. Again, secure attachment, right, is what our hope is for all humans. Secure attachment is I can be mean no matter what, and I still am lovable and I'm still. I have a sense of belonging. So with all my imperfection, it's like we can be each other whoever. That is all the good, all the bad, and we are still loved. So that is the hope. And the interesting that happens cast is that when we start doing all of this attachment work with couples at an individual level, but they're together, most people have never had any secure attachments ever, so they.

27:22 Don't even know what it feels like. So when we start to build, oh, most of our couples leave our center with a secure attachment coming from disorganized, avoiding, anxious, you name it. I've got all of them. I've got the disorganized, I've got the anxious, I got the I mean. I don't like to label one thing, but The idea is that when you're building secure attachment, I can be whoever it is I need to be, an EJ will still love me and even though when times are hard, there's no threat that he'll leave me because I'm a bad person. Like, we just build this. It's like a trust right that should be built between infant and caregiver. Right, But if you have an inconsistent caregiver who let's just say, has a drinking problem or mental health issues, right, you get this inconsistent caring. So that is what develops in secure attachment. Whatever that insecurity is, it could be avoidant, it could be anxious. So when you actually can build trust that no matter what happens, this person will consistently try to meet your needs and love you, it's everything. And you'll see couples hugging in our parking lot. We live near our center, so I will wear open seven days a week and I see couples hugging each other. I was like, Oh, that's happening.

28:43 They're building their secure attachment, Like it's beautiful to see. And yes, do anxious and avoidant hookups very naturally, for sure, but that just means they have the best ability to trigger each other to then develop the secure attachment. But they look at it in the wrong way. They see this person as the person as the source that they're suffering. Why don't you see this person as the source of your growth? I love that. So what you just said was, if you end up with somebody who really triggers you, you could potentially you could reframe this to the perfect opportunity for your own growth and healing.

29:28 Absolutely, if it's physically safe, right, emotionally safe, Like that's the thing. You There are some toxic relationships out there, and there are people that you know do have malicious intent unfortunately, So I always just want to say, like it's you know, but no, for the most part, if your partner triggers you, my gosh, Like I get so excited when EJ and I trigger each other because we always grow from it. And he still wants to avoid conflict, Like just yes today, he's like, well, how can we make this better? I'm like, no, but look what just happened, Like I just learned so much about our trigger that just happened while we were barbecuing, And he's like, okay, you're right, Like he still wants to go to the avoidance piece. But I get so excited because we just keep growing from each other. I mean, we still have our arguments, we still have our areas of communication where we can get better. And so when we do have our little fallouts, now, do they happen less yes, are they less sentence yes, are they less frequent, yes, But we're still like, we learned a huge thing about our relationship yesterday.

30:37 So there's opportunities everywhere if you're open, if you. Can be okay with being that. Okay. The other thing you said earlier tour was that you were always a people pleaser, and so you were the one who would in relationships trust that it will get better, or try to fix them or try to be the right person for them. What advice do you have for other people who see themselves in that. I love this and this is actually I feel like I did in a podcast episode on this. But it's called the overfunctioner, right. Because people pleasers are overfunctioners. They overfunction in the relationships, whether it's with their kids, intimate partners, friends, family, you name it. So an overfunctioner is this. I want them to be happy, I want them to be okay. So I'm going to do whatever it takes to make sure everything's good. Well, when I first started learning this term, right after I was overwhelmed with the kids. My therapist is like, oh my god, girl.

31:36 You over a function in every role. I'm like, why, what does that mean? I was like getting gifts for Eja's mom a Mother's Day and all the birthdays, and I'm doing all the homework with my step boys and I'm like, isn't that just normal? Like but other people weren't doing it and they were like and my therapist was like, no, dear, like you've got you have to have bound for yourself, like you, this is. Not your job. That's not your role to. Like make sure everything is always taken care of. And I was like, what again had been learning? I'd been taking care of my sister, Like we started working when we were eight, just to my food for ourselves and I would like go mop floors and then I go by us hot dogs at the seven eleven.

32:23 Like I overfunctioned from a young age just to make sure we survived. So that was one thing, but I didn't know that I could let go of that role when I was an adult. So here's what happens, and this is how because I work with a lot of people pleasers. If I'm going to overfunction, let's just say for my daughter and help her with her math homework and sit beside her and make she make sure she gets all of the ones correct. She will never learn how to handle it herself. And now I'm being a disservice because I'm actually not helping her grow and I'm not letting her be uncomfortable and I'm not letting her figure. It out herself or with e J. If I'm like the one constantly getting all of the Mother's Day gifts birthday gifts, like dude, that's not my job.

33:10 I love your mom, but like if I keep doing that, I'm not going to let you know that that's this kind of a responsibility you should have. Like it's you know what I mean, that's like a small thing. I overfunctioned him many different ways. I took on all the intimacy guilds, all of it. But the biggest thing here is when you overfunction, you actually it's an unconscious mistrust that the other person can't do it, and the relationship will fall apart, especially in an intimate relationship. I was like, oh my god, if I don't do this. If I don't buy the groceries, well everybody will starve. Well that's not true. I just didn't trust it. Eaj could do it, so I would do it for him.

33:50 And now I learned that was an overfunctioning room. And he's awesome at getting groceries when he needs to. He'll mess it up still sometimes, but that's okay. So we had to give each other that chance to like make mistakes and you know, let go of that control because it's actually freedom. Now for me. I have so much more space now that I'm not people pleasing or overfunctioning. Though I still have the tendency, I'm aware of what that tendency feels like. It's like, oh, oh, I've got a it's like a you know. And then I'm like, oh no, that's that's not mine. I can be of support if you need help, ask me. It's such a huge shift. That is like my when I'm doing a lot of my counseling with my individuals, like that's my jam right there, like working with people pleasers and overfunctioners, and when they they realize they don't have to take on so much, it's like, oh my gosh, Tara, I have my space back, I've got my freedom back.

34:43 I'm like, I know, I didn't even know it was there. It's uncomfortable to run. It's for you to have to let go of that control. Like what you said before, it's that's staying with that discomfort. It was so hard. But once you see the. Impact from it and that your children are actually okay, and that your husband actually can handle it, Like with each experience, it gets easier and easier. But in the very beginning, like when my therapist said, Tara, you can't sit and do the homework with the kids anymore, I was. Like, ah, okay, they're gonna fail. Well, guess what. They have maintained their nineties.

35:28 Club status and one of the hardest elementary schools in Tucson. I have not sat with them with the homework assignment and they're in fifth grade since third grade. Cast guess what freedom for me? At night, I'm watching my reality shows. You guys, go do your homework with you. It's so nice, but it is hard at first, But then when you see the outcome of it, it's like, Okay, awesome, we got this now. I still did have to. Do with the mother's Day stuff for you, Jay, But I get that that's just not his instinct, like. He will he went to get me a Mother's daycard and. Forgot his own mom. I was like, Honnie, Like he's like, dear, I just don't think of it. And so I'm helping him, but I'm not overfunctioning, and that there's a difference. Yeah, functioning is like I have this most trust.

36:21 Supporting him is like. Oh, that's just not his wheelhouse, Like he would not remember to probably get me a Mother's Day card if I wasn't. Like, hey, honey, it's not day tomorrow, Gotta go to. Walgreenson And that's the key ride. It's not being able to discern for yourself where the line is, what's what's motivating this behavioral or what's driving it? And that's I guess for every individual, they're going to have to figure that bit out for themselves. The thing that you said before that I wanted to pick up on was, Okay, so big issue in couples is no intimacy, and you experienced it. I know so many couples who are there as well, and and we'll talk about that as an issue.

37:02 But what you just said about intimacy guilt that you carried all of that guilt. Is it your experience that that's a kind of a woman thing that women feel all of the guilt And is that just a gendered like an expectation or a stereotype. I'm curious to know in your experience. From my experience, there are many women that feel the exact same way I do. So I have to think I'm just not alone in this, and I'm just kind of you know, making this more general. But for men, that friskiness in their body, I call it friskiness, like it feels like it comes easier, like even when they're young, like I, you know, when I'm in middle school and stuff, I'm not master reading and having to like have this release and all of that. I just liked going on dates and you know, getting taken out.

37:57 And stuff like that. Like my thing has always been more emotional intimacy and stuff like that. But even like after the twins were born, like my sex drive went to nothing, and I had been like more playful and stuff. But what happened is like Eja, he's consistently frisky, Like he could be frisky at six am, at three in the morning, like it doesn't he could make it happen anytime, anywhere. And then I started to say no a lot, or just like avoid it at all cost, or even get in fights on date. Night because I'd be like, oh god, I don't want to do those or do all. These unconscious things because I feel I would feel bad, like oh God, he's going to want it and I don't want it, and I know that I.

38:37 Don't want to give in because that's bad. So that's when like guilt started, right, So then I would just start to avoid it. And here's the biggest thing too, Like eg and I didn't talk about it. Well, couples don't talk about it. They will come in and one of their biggest goals is intimacy, and like, when is the last time. You guys talked about it? Well, we don't why because it's just not happening. We just wanted to happen. But how are you going to have impact you? And if you're not talking about it, how are you going to make it different? Right, So we started to recognize there's this unrealistic expectation that intimacy will just go back to the way. It was in the beginning of the relationship. No, that's not true, because what happens is that intimacy guilt is a sort of grief. Like I was greeting, but I didn't know that I lost any desire to be frisky and playful with my husband because now I'm keeping these humans alive, feeding them, I'm con constantly cleaning and laundry like never.

39:37 Knew there was so much laundry. Kids, My god, but it's a lot. It's a lot, and so I was greeting it, but I didn't know that the guilt was grief. I just saw EJ get more frustrated and then more shut down. And we see this in our couples, right, So then it just becomes a powerless feeling for both. One of our highest two highest podcast episodes are Low Frisky and High Frisky. EJ talks about what it's like to be the high frisky partner in the relationship. I talk it's about to be the low frisky, the low desire partner, and guess what, both places feel powerless because the low frisky partner holds all the control. I say when I say if right, that's awful. That's like not a great place to be. But the high frisky partner now feels like they have all the control. Right that the lower part, the low frisky partner, has all the control, and now the high frisky like, oh, I'm just being punished. Like it turns into such a toxic, tense energy when both of them are actually feeling powerless in it. They both want to connect, but they don't know how to because they haven't talked about it and both are grieving. High frisky is like, oh God, I miss my partner. I miss touching them, I miss being close to them. I missed that one unique thing I do with them and

41:07 not anybody else. And the other partner is suffering alone. God I missed those feelings of desire. God, I just missed the feeling of being who I used to be in the body I used to have. And so once we start to process grief with the intimacy, it takes on a whole new outlet because now couples are willing to talk about it, knowing that they're both in a place of powerlessness. But yes, it's usually that the woman feels intimacy guilt, the man feels frustrated that she's punishing him. This is in like, you know, heterosexual relationships. Yeah, and then that last the people will We have had couples that haven't had intimacy in twenty years.

41:49 Oh my god, twenty years. There was one couple that had never had it and they had been married, not even on their honeymoon. Really, Yes, we have seen the gamut of like intimacy issues and the biggest thing we noticed is they didn't know how to talk about it because it's super vulnerable. Yeah, and it's the most raw you could be with anybody. And when we again, when we just when we identify it as grief and powerlessness and that both people feel alone in it, then we can start to make some sort of agreement. And we do a ton of safety containers around intimacy for couples in the beginning, because if let's just say your husband comes in and smacks your butt, immediately, the wife, who maybe is the low risk people will be like a freeze, like, oh no, what's happening. So we say, okay, you guys are going to have safety containers, like butt touching means just that that there's no expectation or anything around that, because you've got to get your nervous system now recognizing that they this person is safe and that hand gestures you know are safe and that you guys can work within these containers to then go you know, because a lot of couples hurt each other with intimacy, like they really do. They weaponize it with each other, you know, and then when there's infidelity. Room with so much infidelity like whatever, you know, the perpetrator or the person that you know had to go through

43:20 the infidelity. On the other hand, like when they're having sex, that's where a lot. Of flashbacks come back and trauma and like. So there's just so much safety containers we put in for intimacy, but they work because you have to do it. It's boundaried. Yeah, So going back to the couples who are taking infidelity off the table for a minute, so couples who want to get that back, because what you just said was an important point too. It gets the point in relationships. I've been there in my own relationship where I almost you would avoid any kind of dog don't even hug me, because in my mind, as soon as you hug me, or as soon as I hug you, or as soon as I show you any affection, you're going to take that as a sign that it's on. And if it's not on and I'm not interested, then I'm not going to give you any sign.

44:05 So then the terms. Then there's not even there's not just no sex, there's not even I don't want to be near you or give you any kind of indication, which is just so self defeating. Yeah, so with. Your couples, is the work to be done in like creating those smaller Yeah, okay, you can hug and you can hold hands, but there's no more expectation and kind of build back to feeling safe just being connected without the sex before you get to that bit. Everybody is so different, but most couples we've worked with, especially when they're dealing with, you know, painful intimacy experiences with each other, as you have to have containers and boundaries because like, let's just say, for example, like this was just an argument Egen they had like when more not having sex.

44:52 Eg will point that out right like. Oh, a couple of weeks and then I'm like, okay, we have here it goes again like oh there's my girls. I know what that is, and I'm like, Eja, let me just ask you this. Why is it like when sex isn't happening. You're aware of that, but we haven't had a date night in two months, I said, So I've got to let you know what would feel safe to me. Is I get it. It hasn't happened sex physical sex has not happened in two weeks, but we haven't had a date night in over two months, whatever it is, And I've got to let you know, like I need the emotional intimacy, I need date nights with you, Like I can't just have sex with you at three in the morning and not have had And he's like, you're right, Tarah. He's like, we are not cultivating priority of our relationship and I am just looking at the frequency that we haven't had it in two weeks. So it's those kind of conversations where it's like, I'm willing to have this conversation with you like that we haven't had sex in two weeks, but I also need you to be willing to be like, oh, we also haven't had a date night in two months, because I'm not going to be it's not going to be on me that we just haven't had the sex, the physical act of it, like it's other things too, And so having that type of communication with the other person around like okay, so let's just say the person who's got higher frisky, their focus is all like always.

46:17 Like, oh my gosh, can we have sex. I'm going to have sex. We're going to have sex. We can't have sex. You've got to be able to now generalize that to other areas in order to build safety around it for them the other person to be like, oh my gosh, they are trying in these other ways. Oh look they did. We went out to lunch for two hours. We prioritized our relationship for these you know, these days, because that was really important because you come in with just this one. We want to have more sex, we want to feel more connected. Well maybe one person does, but what does that mean for the other person? So we help them both define what that is.

46:58 For them and then how to get to these kind of agreements that would cultivate the deepest intimacy possible. And everyone's very different. Everyone is very different, right, And it's not about low sex drive and high sex drive because those like even they can change throughout transitions in lifetime. If it's about having healthy communication about what it's like. If it's not happening, or if it's happening. Too much, or if like we have people that hide in the closet to get undressed into their pajamas because they don't want their partner seeing them and thinking that like sex. Well, no, you have to be able to be like, hey, I just want to let you know I have that urge to go dress in the closet because my anxiety is really high that if I dress undressed in front of you, you're going to immediately want to just have sex.

47:46 You start with that type of communication and then once. You guys both recognize the anxiety around it, it's right. It feels unstuck and like you want intimacy to feel free and flowing and beautiful, and couples have just made it into this big trust me, we've been there, this big old. Black cloud, and you're just like, no, it's good. Someone's connected. You could be with somebody. How do we get it back where there's not all this pain attached to it? And it's just by talking about what the feelings are around it, because then it doesn't get held as grief and loneliness and suffering. Individually and as much as you said right at the beginning, Like couple's counseling is it's not all about just communication because there's all this deepest stuff that has to be explored.

48:33 Like at the end of the day, there is stuff that needs to be communicated, isn't there. There's a lot of conversations in couples that are just not happening. People just don't want to cause a conflict, or they don't want or they don't know how to say what they want to say. And it's I mean, oh my gosh, it's so skills based. When do we learn When do we learn to talk about intimacy and emotional intimacy? Like we're not basical and we're learning about that. We just learned like sex either do it or don't don't and then like don't do it, but then when you're in love do it. So now you're like, wait a second, I have this like a shameful thing about sex is bad, but when you love someone, now it's good. Like what no one talks about the skills of what it takes to have a healthy, vibrant sex life, emotional intimacy connected relationship. And so when couple are like, oh my god, we have to plan our intimacy.

49:28 Yeah, you do. You have to plan and you have to build skills to really have a healthy communication. And it's okay. Because guess what, nothing's working for you now, so just try this. I mean, And that's why, like when I'm in session with a couple, I will I will have like you know, I'll move into the chair across and I'll say, you have to repeat after me. I know it sounds clunky. Well, I hear that that felt really hard for. You, because right they're so used to defending themselves and they don't want to hear their partners and so they can't validate. And I will do it ten times until they get that feeling of what it means to validate.

50:08 I hear that that was really hard. Because they won't do it otherwise. So it's that coaching piece. It's a skill. And I said, see, I know it sounds clunky and you have to repeat after me, and it's almost like a coaching session. But that's okay because in the moment when you're not here in this session and you're at home and your partners comeing to you and they are in pain, instead of you being like, well I'm in pain too, you're gonna, wow, is there anything I can do right now to support you? You'll still be able to come back to you. Don't worry, but you're going to have that validation piece first where they feel heard and sane. It's just we don't have the skill to do it. If there is something uncomfortable, we try to defend it. Maybe that's not true, that's not what I said.

50:54 You are totally wrong. It doesn't matter. You say, wow, I hear that. That was really pain for you. I'm so sorry what. Just happened that. That is not a skill humans have, but it is a skill we can build along with empathy and compassion. And when couples really get that and they stop digging. Their heels in that, it's just going to be some miraculous, awesome relationship forever with hot sex all the time. Like, no, not happening, or there would not be this high as a divorce rate. There's something else happening here. Yeah, And that's it. People don't want to they want they don't want to learn the skills. They want to think it just organic.

51:34 But then you ask the question, where did I learn healthy communication? How do I go deeper with my partner? What is emotional intimacy and physical intimacy? We don't know. I imagine that that is much easier to have those conversations with somebody skilled in the room. I mean, I know that you have your online program that you sell on your website that people can sign up, and that's self paced. What's the feedby that you get on that people being able to take that and do it themselves without having somebody in the room to help. So this is really difficult and hard for some couples. It's pretty like we. Have our videos and everything for the online there are some couples that need the third person in the room.

52:21 That's just going to be the objective. So people have reached out all over it, like do you and EJ? Can you coach us through? Because the intimacy series we have it where it's like the communication series is first and then the intimacy series and you will see if people fall off right in the first intimacy exercise. So we open the second company. We're our studio is so we can start doing global coaching because people are asking for it. But I would say so for couples, now I say listen, go talk about this piece, like go get a couple's therapist, go talk about this piece, what's happening, what's triggering while you feel like it's really hard, you know, and we will start offering coaching sessions down the road.

53:04 But if you get stuck. In it and you feel like you can't move through it, that's a very good sign that you. Just need someone else in that room or remotely. There's great relationship coaches online to help you through it. But there I would say, we're really good at saying listen this if you are in a lot of pain with your partner, like. This could actually cause more harm than good. Because you don't have that person helping right coach exactly how to feel in window of tolerance and emotion regulation. But there's some couples that just do it because they love it. Like the premiere, It'll we have more couples in the premiere it are like, oh, we just want to do this to know all.

53:44 About each other, you know. We try to make it super affordable because that was my heart. It started over COVID and then it just grew into this at home piece. But yeah, I would just say I think couples know if there's that hard like feeling of tension, resentment, disdain, dislike. That sounds like a good saying that you might need someone to really help soften those edges first, whether that's individually or a relationship coach. Yeah, and before you go, Tara, So you talked about starting off with a safe word, and we've talked about, you know, attachment and how that plays out, and your triggers and cultivating your own practices of self compassion, internal safety, all of that. I'm curious to know. So in your online program or in your kind of typical every couple is different, I know, but in a typical couples counseling process, like, what are the kind of key pillars, Like, what are the key things that you're going Yeah, you said safe word for example, but are they sort of key gills or milestones or pillars that are that everybody kind of goes through that are sort of the essential processes that people need to learn.

54:54 Well, we call it the shift. Oh my god, that's such a big question. Sorry, that's huge. Should have started with that, like what our couples go through? And I feel like it could be. That's so we developed a model that's beginning, middle, and end right. Beginning is like, okay, we are out of our window of tolerance. We are fighting. It is awful. We hate each other, we can't talk to each other. Everything feels tense, right, So we start with like helping them understand who they are at a core level, what's happening for them, what are the triggers from each other. That's where we kind of go into attachment theory. We do the whole genogram with them, timeline birth until they need right. Then we're like, okay, oh my god, so I used to hide in the closet when you hear mom and dad fighting. Okay, why what would happen to you? I would get really scared. Right, So we just get to see them as little humans from up until they meet. Then we go through their relationship timeline first day up until now, and we start to identify all the crevices. Oh god, that was a big thing that happened, and when you guys never talked about it before. Okay, okay, so you just waited and you thought by putting get under the rug that it would just be have resolution.

56:04 Okay, Well we know that doesn't work. So we help them identify early on what skills they didn't have and that's why infidelity happened, or that's why you know a ton of negative patterns and the communication happened. So once we get to that, that's like the middle. There's this thing that happens, and it's called the messy middle, and it's like couples are like, we're not coming back ever, and I'm like, oh, you guys, I even have a paper on this, because I remind them in the very first session there will be a part where you don't want to come back. That is the point of change, and I'm going to remind you of it, even if it's in an email because you cancel your session. So messy middle means that their dynamic is starting to shift, even if they've been in dysfunction for twenty years, and that feels awful.

56:51 We don't like change. No, no, we want things. To say the same homeostasis, right, while homeostasis is getting disruptive because now people are caring more and now they're more aware, and it feels really bad. Let's just go back. I don't want to do this anymore. Usually takes one to two weeks of a little destabilization in the middle, and then the shift happens. We call it the shift. I even have a podcast. Called This Shift where it's like we've got into a fight and instead of twenty four hours of being apart, we were only apart for three hours, and we're like, really, how calm well now because there's this understanding and we're repairing it more quickly and we understand each other better.

57:37 We literally call it the shift, and we measure it with intensity frequency duration, and the shift is like we can be together in difficult times and we're not using the thread of divorce or really mean things to say to each other. So that's the shift. And again it's intensity frequency duration. Couples are noticing it's less frequent, it's less intensive, less off, and then you start to notice that our final part is new. Story, old story. They are now acting in their relationship from their positive core beliefs. I am safe, I am okay, we can. Handle this, versus I'm not okay, I'm not safe, we can't handle this, we're broken, there's.

58:18 Something wrong with me. Well, now they are reinforcing their positive core beliefs individually and as a couple's dynamic. And that's like when we're sitting in there, it's usually about forty six months and we're like, there's nothing really. To talk about, right, we know old. Story, news story is happening, and that Hey, you guys are still going to have road bumps, Like, but you have learned how to navigate difficult times together. You've learned how to remove yourself if you are out of your window of tolerance. You've learned how to set boundaries with each other and agreements that you will be okay even when you're not okay. I've learned to love different parts of each other that you didn't even know were there, Like EJ's part of avoidance, I'm like, I hate you, and now I'm like, oh my god, that's his little wounded part from when he was like nine.

59:11 I love that part, even though it's super annoying. Yeah, I mean, I know that's like a long answer to your question, but it's like it's such a process cast but you see it in all the stages. Now that we've done it for so long, it's like and every couple is different, but you can pinpoint it. Like now that we have all of these other therapists trained in our model, they're like, oh my gosh, the messy metals happening I'm like, oh no, we didn't even know it was a thing until like two years in. I'm like, EJ, why after session ten do people want to leave? Like? And we just started to do all the research around what's. Happening there, like we I mean, we've learned through this whole process too, and it keeps getting better, and now I'm revising everything now.

59:53 I'm like, it's just crazy. I keep wanting it to get even more better and better. Better, better. That's that's so natural though, because it's constantly evolving and growing in your learning from experience. And I just wanted to ask you too, Tara. No, I said that was the last question. But while you were talking then I was thinking so essentially, for people who were like listening to this and you've got their own relationship issues, it sounds like whatever people show up with, like it's he's got a gambling problem, he gambled all our money, he works all weekend, he's never home, he yells at the kids, he's not the kind of parent that I want for our and then and he doesn't listen to anything I say. Whatever the problem is that they show up with, Essentially, the process is pretty much the same it's working out what causes that behavior. What's what's driving the gambling or the working late, or the avoiding or the flirting with other women or whatever the thing is, right, it's getting underneath to what's driving that.

1:00:51 Yes, and I love that you said behavior because we see our person as the source of this suffering. It's actually a behavior that they're doing, but it's not them, you know. So I love that we can start to see people as whole humans that are imperfect, that have behaviors that are definitely not cool at times, but if they have that willingness to be like, you know what, that. Behavior is just not working for me anymore. I'm willing to look at this right in a realistic way. I mean, it's again secure attachment cast I can be who I am, even though there's parts of me that are super broken or have had bad behaviors in the past, But like I am, I'm.

1:01:38 Still loved, you know. And it's huge too, Like the infidelity. Piece and the amount of like sex addicts that we've talked with, like knowing that their partners now can accept the part of them that was an addict at that. Time is so beautiful, huge. Oh, the healing is just incredible. We're I mean, we have had couples that have gone through adelity on our podcast, but like more so and more so because couples realize that there is healing to it, Like seventy percent, Look, it cures me and my steps. Seventy percent of couples who go to counseling after infidelity actually make it work. But you would normally think, oh, if that happens, we're done. Yeah, you know, but seventy percent of couples who go for counseling with infidelity actually turn out to be stronger and even more deeply connected than they ever thought they could be just putting it out there because that's the thing, like when it gets to that point, something is really wrong and now we're acting out of secrecy or whatever it might be.

1:02:41 Yeah, it's real good. I think there's people can take a lot of hope from that that from the worst from the crisis can come, the growth can come, all of the healing and it could be better than ever. Yeah, this has been so this has been such a great conversation, Tarr. But I could keep you here for three hours, but nobody's got the time for that. But thank you so much. This has been a pleasure. I loved it. When you were like kind of going through everything we talked about, I was like, oh my gosh, we did go through a lot. Crappy to Happy is created and produced by me castun. If you enjoy the show, please hit the follow button wherever you listen to ensure you never miss an episode, Share with a friend to get me into the ears of more lovely listeners, and I would love for you to leave a five star rating and review. Thank you so much for being here and I cannot wait to catch you next week for another fabulous episode of Crappy to Happy.