Oct. 3, 2022

How to worry less with Brigid Delaney

How to worry less with Brigid Delaney
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How to worry less with Brigid Delaney
How to worry less with Brigid Delaney
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Season 8 Mindset Psychology & Neuroscience Personal Growth & Healing

During the COVID-19 lockdowns of the past few years, Brigid Delaney went searching for ideas that might help us feel a bit better. She stumbled across Stoicism, an ancient Greek philosophy which is all about how not to sweat the small stuff and better appreciate our precious time on earth.Brigid’s new book is called Reasons Not to Worry, and you can follow more of her work on twitter @BrigidWD. 
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Transcript
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A listener production.

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This is Crappita Happy and I am your host, Castune.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist and mindfulness meditation teacher

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and of.

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Course author of the Crappita Happy books.

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In this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring,

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intelligent people who are experts in their field and who

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have something of value to share that will help you

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feel less crappy and more happy.

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We've all been dealing.

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With our fair share of hard times over the past

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few years. There's obviously been all of the challenge and

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the stress of lockdown with COVID, the climate emergency and

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the devastating impact of floods and fires, the war in Ukraine,

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and now a possible global recession just to top things off.

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So it was with great interest that I picked up

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a brand new book written by Guardian journalist and author

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Bridget Delaney, is called Reasons Not to Worry. Bridget's brand

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new book is an accessible introduction to the ancient Greek

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philosophy of Stoicism. You might have heard of the Stoics.

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If you have wondered what that's all about, then this

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is a really great introduction. Bridget has done such a

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brilliant job of boiling down the essence of this philosophy

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in a way that is very accessible, very relatable, very humorous,

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and it's essentially all about how not to sweat the

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small stuff and how to better appreciate our precious time

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here on earth. I personally was struck by the overlap

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between Stoicism and Buddhism, and we had a discussion about that.

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But really, the Stoic philosophers have got a lot of

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wisdom to share which is super relevant to our lives today.

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I really enjoyed my chat with Bridget, and I really

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hope that you get as much out of this conversation

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as I did. Bridget, Welcome to the Crappy to Happy podcast.

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Thanks for having me casts and I.

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Also want to specially thank you for doing this at

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nine o'clock at night in Melbourne time on our holiday

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going Above and Beyond.

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The book is like two days old, so I really

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want to welcome it into the world.

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Can I just start straight off the top and say,

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I love this book.

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Oh thank you.

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I'm honest to God, I was so excited to talk

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to you about this. So if anybody is starting to

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listen to this and thinking they might tune out. I

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just wanted to say straight up, this is a book.

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The book is called Reasons Not to Worry, and it

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is such a fabulous read and such important, just practical, relevant,

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life changing information which we're about to talk about.

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So congratulations, Bridget.

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Thank you so much. I'm glad you got it. You know,

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like I think stour system's life changing, and I want

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other people to kind of get the magic as well.

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So thanks for getting it.

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Oh can we talk then?

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So this is a book about Stoicism, which is an

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ancient Well, you're going to tell me Greek philosophy.

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We pick up these quotes.

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And memes with these Socrates quotes and these Plato quotes

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we got.

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Oh that's all very wise, but none of us really.

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Dig into who these people were and what their whole

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philosophy was.

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But that is what you have done.

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So can you please explain how did you get started

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on this journey in the first place.

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So it was a bit fortuitous. I do a weekly

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column for The Guardian called Bridget Delaney's Diary, and you know,

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it's a bit of fun. It's a lighthearted column and

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one of the editors suggested one week where I had

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no material that I should do a thing called Stoic Week,

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which is being Stoic for a week following a program

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at the University of Sussex Online. And I did that

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and I wrote a very lighthearted column that didn't quite

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get what stoicism was. It was very once over life,

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and I realized after I published it that I hadn't

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really given the philosophy its due and that I should

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have probably taken it a bit more seriously because there

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were some things in there that really resonated. And so

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the following year I went back and redid the course,

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but just in for myself, and I did it with

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a number of friends. We formed a WhatsApp group and

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we did the readings and we talked about how the

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philosophy interacted with our lives. And I found that amongst

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this group of people, which included a friend of mine

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who was training to be a priest, someone that worked

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at the Australian, someone that worked for Get Up, a

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law student, like all these various people got something out

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of stoicism that was really meaningful and changed their lives.

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And that's when I thought it was probably worth doing

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a deeper dive in. And so I started really researching them,

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and then of course the pandemic happened, and that's when

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stoicism really came into its own for me.

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So can you give us a broadbrush overview before we

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dive in a little deeper into what is stoicism all about?

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Sure things, So you may have heard the word stoic

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before and think that it means people who are repressed,

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who don't cry and show your emotion.

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Right, that's what people think.

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And the Queen who you know as we're recording this,

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it's a public holiday in Australia to commemorate her death,

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and she's often described as stoic. And I think there's

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a couple of definitions of stoic that are important to

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talk about. The first definition is the repressed, you know,

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keep calm, carry on, don't cry version of stoicism. And

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the second one, which I write about, is the philosophical school,

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which occurred in ancient Greece or Saturday in ancient Greece

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in three point fifty BC. And they were called the

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Stoics because they they met under a painted porch to

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talk about philosophy, and that porch was called the stower.

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So the origin of word is the meeting place. And

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then you know, over time that meaning gradually changed. But

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the Stoics loved life. They were very kind of enthusiastic

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participants in the world. You know, they certainly cried and

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laughed and loved and all that sort of stuff. And

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they were not repressed. So yeah, different meaning.

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So essentially what they haven't finished the book, but I

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am well into it.

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But essentially they came up with this approach to life

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right to handle the stresses and the challenges of life

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and to experience a more meaningful life.

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What was their basic approach.

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Their approach was that suffering's going to if you're alive,

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you're going to suffer. You're going to have some great

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things happen, but also you are going to get your

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share of problems. Everyone does. And those problems might include heartbreak,

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so a breakup, a loss, falling in love with someone

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that doesn't love you back. It could also include being

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unemployed or not getting a job that you really wanted,

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or losing a job or your company, you know, not succeeding.

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It can include you know, not being able to have

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children or having children and then kind of freaking out

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and having issues with your children. It can include your

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own illness and eventual death. So all these things are

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ahead of us in life, or a lot of them

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are ahead of us. And I think in modern life

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we pretend that they're not going to happen, and when

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they do happen, where in a real state, because we

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haven't had the skills, we haven't been taught the skills

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to be resilient and to cope with these hardships. So

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the Stoics believed that when times are good, we should

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keep in mind that they're going to get harder or

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they're going to be hard at some point. So how

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do we cope with that hardship? And I think that's

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a great attitude because it prepares and it means you

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don't fall apart when the worst happens. You acknowledge that

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it's part of life, and then you kind of move on.

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The Thing that really struck me as I was reading

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your description of Stoicism and what this approach is is

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because I'm quite into Buddhism and Buddhist psychology, and that's

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kind of the approach that I bring shows called crappy

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are Happy. I've written three books about happiness, but I

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say all the time The version of happiness.

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I'm selling to you is not that fleeting.

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When I get a new car, when I get a

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new house, a new boyfriend, that's when I'll be happy.

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It's about finding something within us that sustains and knowing

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that you can deal with the ups and the downs.

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I'm just curious to know, Bridget, did you, I guess,

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have any knowledge of Buddhism and Buddhist philosophy And did

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you realize those parallels as well, because they are so similar.

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Yeah, it's uncannily strong. And when you were describing your

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own philosophy, it sounds like you're talking about Stoicism, and

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I think so many people are Stoic without realizing that

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it's this ancient thing that's older than Christianity. There's a

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lot of parallels, and I've been trying to find this

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that I've been doing a bit of press over the

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last few days and asking radio listeners to ring in

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if they've got any information. But you know, there seems

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to have been a crossing on the Silk Road back

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in the day of a Buddhist coming in from China

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or India crossing with a Greek Stoic and talking and

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these ideas really cross pollinates. So where I see similarities

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in the detachment, you know, there's a level of detachment.

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There's also darma, so the Stoics call it purpose or nature,

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and of course the Buddhists have darma. So the Stoics

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believes that in each of us we have a specific

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nature and that's our path in life. So it might

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be something like if you're a really kind of naturally

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caring person, you're like caring for the underdog. It might

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be that your your purpose is parenting or being a

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career could be working, you know, with people who are

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suffering or less privileged, and that's very similar to the

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dharma aspect in Buddhism. You know, you have your own

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individual nature that informs the way that your life unfolds,

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and that you're happiest when you're you're in your nature,

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when you're expressing your nature. And they also believed that

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it's within our nature to have community and to share

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and to be with other people and create a society together.

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People say stoicism is an individualistic philosophy, but they were

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very much a part of you know, they're very much

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believed in togetherness and common ground and Marcus Aurelius, one

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of the great Roman Stoics, said what's good for the

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bees is good for the hive. You know, what's good

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for you is actually good for society.

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So so much truth in that.

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Yeah, there's all these parallels. And Buddhism, of course, is

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having you know, since the sixties, obviously in the or

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earlier in the West, you know, it's been embraced, but

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Stoicism got kind of, I guess, washed away a bit

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by Christianity, and a lot of these teachings, whilst they

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haven't been lost, have not really you know, caught on

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until recent years when you know that there's particularly sort

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of people people like Tim Ferriss the podcast in America,

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and there's another guy, Ryan Holiday. There's a couple of

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people in the UK who've resurfaced Stoicism. But I think

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it's got huge potential to really connect with people who

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don't necessarily want to be religious or be Buddhist. You

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all love the vibe.

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Yeah, the vibe of the thing exactly.

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And I was going to say, as much as I'm

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into I'm into Buddhist philosophy, you know, I'm not a Buddhist.

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I have seen no way here to talk about Stoicism,

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not Buddhism, but just as parallels. I have seen the

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Diala Lama speak a few times. I've been fortunate enough

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to be in his audience, and people ask the question

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about is it a religion or is it just a philosophy,

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and he says, make no mistake, it is a religion.

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It has its own doctrines and virtues and rituals and

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vows that you take. You don't have to convert to

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Buddhism to embrace the fundamentals of Buddhist philosophy. And he

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also had a bit of an issue with the Christianity

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and the Christians wanting to convert everybody. But I think

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for those people who don't, who kin'd of get that

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it's a bit religious or it's a bit dogmatic. With

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the Buddhism, I think the Stoicism, it captures all of

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the same attitudes and practices and philosophies, but in a

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very secular, non religious way. It really is a life philosophy,

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isn't it.

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It's a life philosophy, and there's no In fact, it's

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considered bad form to talk about Stoicism like Epictetus. I know,

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I'm breaching the laws here, Epictetus said, you know, don't

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preach it, kind of embody it. You know, be a stoic.

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You don't need to prophesize or try and convert people.

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What you want to do is actually be a role

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model in your own character, and people will emulate you,

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and so there will be all these kind of secret Stoics.

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One of the appeals of stoicism in our secular world

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is that there's no church. You're not required to pay

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anyone any money, you're not required to worship anyone. You know,

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it's so modern that I kept on, like when I

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was researching this book, I was like, how is this

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stuff pre Christian? It's extraordinarily contemporary. Even the language that

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they use, you know, they if you're used to reading

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Chaucer or Shakespeare, you think that, you know, old language

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is tough to kind of untangle. But Stoicism has this

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directness and this bluntness in the writing that is super refreshing.

248
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And you're right, there is no there's none of that

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religious aspect. But I found it very close to spirituality,

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Like it really nudged the edge for me in a

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beautiful way. So one of my I mean my favorite

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sto like I think he is probably Marcus Aurelius, who

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wrote a beautiful book called Meditations, which was his diary

254
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when he was on the battlefield for many years, you know,

255
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I think he was extending the Roman Empire, and he

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writes about you know, the diary was never meant for publication,

257
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but he writes about nature in the most extraordinary way.

258
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Just looking up a quote, well, he just writes about

259
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so you know, yeah, it's close to spirituality in many ways.

260
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And how can you not see spirituality in this, which

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is Marcus Aurelius saying, dwell on the beauty of life.

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Watch the stars and see yourself running with them. You know.

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That's that to me, is like kind of static appreciation

264
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of life and of nature. So it's not necessarily a

265
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dry philosophy that's just in books. It's about this appreciation

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of the incredible world that we're in and nature and

267
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the mysteries of life. Like they were fascinated with the

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cosmoss and how things were created and the interconnectedness of

269
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plants and animals and humans and the way we all

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kind of fit together. So there's a real beauty in

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a lot of their thinking and their writing, which I

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think comes close to spiritual thinking.

273
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So Bridget, I know that you started getting interested in

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understanding more about Stoletism in twenty nineteen and at the time,

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and you talk in the book about bushfires raging through

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New South Wales and Sydney. Then of course we had

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the pandemic for two years and all that entailed. And

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then this year, I mean, I've just moved from Queensland

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and I know New South Wales a sam We've been

280
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devastated by floods. I moved to London to this heat

281
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wave like London has never experienced before. There's a lot

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to be anxious about, Like, there is a lot to

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be distressed about. I'm curious to know how can stoicism

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help us to deal with these kind of really big

285
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and small uncertainties in our own lives? And I guess also,

286
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how has it helped you to deal with some of

287
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those things?

288
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Yeah? Sure, I mean I'm currently in Brisbane right now

289
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recording this and it's NonStop rain and I'm staying with

290
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my uncle. He's like, oh, still, haven't you know if

291
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the weather's really weird? So and it's unsettling, you know,

292
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and the whole time I was writing this book, things

293
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were happening in the world that were you know, people

294
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kept on saying, unpreciden, this is unprecedented, this is unprecident.

295
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And I don't know how we're meant to keep taking

296
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on things that are unprecedented, like how we're meant to

297
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process them. And so it was really assuring for me

298
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to find out that throughout history there have been periods

299
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of time where people have felt incredibly destabilized, including around

300
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the time of the definitely the Roman Stoics, they lived

301
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in a really insane time and they thought the climate

302
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was collapsing. Wow. As well. Seneca, one of the great

303
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kind of Stoic writers I write a lot about in

304
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the book, was worried because the ships in Rome were

305
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going beyond the boundaries that they'd usually gone. They were

306
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extending up to modern day Britain, and he thought that

307
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that sort of destroyed the natural order of things. It

308
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took the world out of balance. And back then they

309
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developed a theory that the world would then be destroyed

310
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by either fire or flood because it was out of homeostasis.

311
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So they had this really insane kind of climate fears.

312
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Two thousand years ago, the difference I think with us

313
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is we do have the data to back up that

314
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our fears are actually that well founded, so there is

315
00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:08.359
reason to worry with that. But in other things I

316
00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:11.559
apply the Stoic test called the control test, which is

317
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an extraordinary, very elegant, very simple Stoic solution for everything.

318
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And the Stoics believe that you can only control three things.

319
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You can control your character, your own character, your actions

320
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and reactions, and how you treat others, and everything else

321
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is outside your control. So that doesn't sound like a lot.

322
00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:41.240
You know, health isn't fully in your control, money, your reputation.

323
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That's all you know that can be destroyed in an

324
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instant by things that you have no control over. So

325
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that can sound really scary, but it's actually really wonderful

326
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to know where those boundaries are and where to put

327
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your energy. So I can write this book. I can

328
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spend years writing it and write it to the best

329
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:03.880
of my ability, but once it's released, I can't control

330
00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:06.759
how many people buy it. I can't control the reviews

331
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it gets. I can't control if you know, people either

332
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love it or hate it. I just have to let

333
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it go out in the world. And I think that's

334
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the same when people are parents. You know you can't

335
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control You can try and mold your children, but ultimately

336
00:19:20.079 --> 00:19:25.440
they're they're individuals who are outside your your full control.

337
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And it's the same with you in marriage, in work.

338
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You know, you can try and persuade people and influence them,

339
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but you can't ultimately control them. And once you realize

340
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you can't, so let it go. Let it go. You

341
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have to, and you can. I think the reactions piece

342
00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:48.799
is really interesting because you can control your reactions to things,

343
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and that's our reactions can be really powerful. If we

344
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don't let go, if we are resistant, that can create

345
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all these reactions around, you know, just creating disturbance with

346
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other people being unhappy, not being content in the present moment. Yeah.

347
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Within our reactions is acceptance, which is such a powerful,

348
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such a powerful tool we have. So yeah. So I

349
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apply that test pretty much five times a day. And

350
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I'm going to say wrong, Yeah, never wrong.

351
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:30.279
It's so simple, but I agree, so effective, particularly when

352
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I mean, I'm a psychologist. You know, I know firsthand,

353
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not just myself, but the amount of people that I

354
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have worked with in my work who.

355
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Become gripped by.

356
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Worry and anxiety and the lengths that we go to

357
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to try to control the uncontrollable and the knots we

358
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turn ourselves into attempting to control the uncontrollable.

359
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So being able to come back to that and I

360
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love that that. Let's say them again.

361
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It's your character, your character, action and reactions and how

362
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you treat others. Yeah, everything else is out of your

363
00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:07.440
pretty trouble. I mean you would have seen as a psychologist,

364
00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:09.880
a lot of stoicism has actually found its way into

365
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CBT therapy, and you know, it's found its way into

366
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kind of branches of psychology and it's never been named

367
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as stoicism, but I think it will be for melar.

368
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To a lot of people, it's like, well yeah.

369
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That well, yeah exactly.

370
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And when I say, you know, as a psychologist, I

371
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talk to people about acceptance and mindfulness and being present

372
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and the only thing that you have. You know, you

373
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can choose your values, you can choose how you react

374
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to things, but you can't choose anything that's going on

375
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around you. So being aware of what's happening, you know,

376
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Mindfulness to me is being aware of what's happening around

377
00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:51.599
you and also what is arising within you, and they're

378
00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:54.759
making a choice about what you do next, as opposed

379
00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:58.599
to being hijacked constantly by these things.

380
00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:03.880
So there is so much much overlap. Tell me about ataraxia.

381
00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:08.759
Ataraxia is a great one. It's it's kind of Greek agent,

382
00:22:08.839 --> 00:22:15.039
Greek for for tranquility, for equilibrium, for having like an evenness,

383
00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:17.920
not going too high, not going too low. It's a

384
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sort of emotional homeostasis. You know that word again. We

385
00:22:21.559 --> 00:22:25.240
keep coming back to it, that balance. And the Stoics

386
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saw that as a kind of perfect like a perfect

387
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state to be in because they saw the anger or

388
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being kind of gripped by the passions and emotions led

389
00:22:35.880 --> 00:22:39.359
to disturbance, and disturbance then led to other disturbance. So

390
00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:43.480
say you and I are in a I crash into

391
00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:47.400
you and in our cars and you get out and

392
00:22:47.559 --> 00:22:49.240
yell at me, and then I yell at you, and

393
00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:52.480
there's it's a big kind of emotional mess as well

394
00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:57.200
as an accident, and then you will you might then

395
00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:01.240
go into work and be you know, still angry, maybe

396
00:23:01.319 --> 00:23:03.680
yell at a colleague or yell at one of your

397
00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:07.720
kids or whatever. And then that person then is carrying

398
00:23:07.720 --> 00:23:10.559
that heat of that exchange and on it goes, and

399
00:23:10.599 --> 00:23:14.559
it's a kind of ripple of disturbance. And the stoics

400
00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:17.519
were like, let's stop that at the source. Don't react,

401
00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:21.559
you know, don't react in that anger. Don't be like

402
00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:25.000
you have control over your emotions. It's called reason and

403
00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:27.480
it's called slowing down and putting a lid on it.

404
00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:31.000
And they said that that's in our power to do it.

405
00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:33.440
It's difficult, but we can do it. And then that

406
00:23:33.799 --> 00:23:40.200
stops all the stuff that spreads out beyond the initial

407
00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:42.640
act in this day and age. I mean, there's a

408
00:23:42.759 --> 00:23:46.880
chapter in the book about like that starts with a

409
00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:49.200
kind of study that was in the Washington Post about

410
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:52.920
how much angry are I think was Americans, how much

411
00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:55.400
angrier people are since the pandemic. You know, there's this

412
00:23:56.119 --> 00:24:01.440
rage that people don't want to control anymore. Present in

413
00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:05.799
the tiniest interactions, people would just ignite. And in Australia

414
00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:08.000
at the moment, as in many places in the world,

415
00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:13.400
like airports are just a stew of of emotion and

416
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:18.400
reaction and anger because people can't get on the flights.

417
00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:20.640
They can't you know, they can't get where they want

418
00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:23.240
to go. They've been at home for two years, there's

419
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:26.119
this pent up energy and it comes out as anger.

420
00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:28.680
It gets taken out on staff, and then.

421
00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:33.440
Yeah, it's and honor goes exactly it it goes.

422
00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:36.119
And no one's challenging it, you know, because people think, oh, well,

423
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:38.720
they're a customer, they have the right to express this.

424
00:24:38.920 --> 00:24:42.880
And in actual fact, the Stoic saw anger as being

425
00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:47.400
a real poison, you know, really a terrible thing that

426
00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:52.519
we should make huge efforts to control, and it's within

427
00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:56.160
our power to control it. So Seneca wrote this entire

428
00:24:56.160 --> 00:24:59.400
book called The Era, which I think is Latin on

429
00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:03.240
anger about that was a guide, very practical guide about

430
00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:05.960
how to deal with anger, and I read that when

431
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:09.279
I was researching this book. You could put it in

432
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:14.680
bookstores today and it is absolutely useful. So they understood

433
00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:18.240
anger as being like a primal, you know, very organic

434
00:25:18.279 --> 00:25:23.440
human emotion that if I'm controlled, could lead to bad consequences.

435
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:28.400
So they developed these systematic responses to it and insisted

436
00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:31.680
that to be a good member of society, you keep

437
00:25:31.720 --> 00:25:33.039
a lid on the anger.

438
00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:34.799
So I've got a question about that.

439
00:25:35.720 --> 00:25:38.920
We're not talking about suppressing as in, like you know,

440
00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:43.680
bottling up anger, because that's obviously bad, right, So this

441
00:25:43.759 --> 00:25:47.720
is more about so from a psychologists perpective, I'm thinking,

442
00:25:47.880 --> 00:25:52.440
we acknowledge that we're angry, that we manage what we

443
00:25:52.599 --> 00:25:53.519
do with that.

444
00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:55.880
Is that fair to say, yeah, you don't want to

445
00:25:55.920 --> 00:25:57.759
repress it, and you also don't want to be booked over.

446
00:25:57.960 --> 00:25:59.680
So I talk about this a lot in the book,

447
00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:02.799
some of the Stoic ideas, and I'm like, oh, you know,

448
00:26:02.839 --> 00:26:04.720
if none of us were angry, then how do we

449
00:26:04.759 --> 00:26:05.799
create boundaries?

450
00:26:06.200 --> 00:26:07.039
Nothing would change?

451
00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:09.599
Yeah, yeah, nothing would change. And also anger has a

452
00:26:09.680 --> 00:26:13.359
very strong political you know, it's a strong political tool.

453
00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:16.400
But they talk about this thing called fake anger, which

454
00:26:16.480 --> 00:26:19.720
is if someone's walking all over you and you need

455
00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:23.599
to be assertive, you actually pretend to get angry, but

456
00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:26.359
you assert yourself. It's about what anger does to you

457
00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:31.000
as a person, how it ruins your tranquility. So, I mean,

458
00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:36.079
the Stoics were incredibly powerful, very successful people in politics

459
00:26:36.160 --> 00:26:39.319
in ancient Rome. They did not let people walk all

460
00:26:39.319 --> 00:26:43.759
over them, but they saw how having a disturbed inner

461
00:26:43.799 --> 00:26:48.559
life was actually counter productive to having a successful outer life.

462
00:26:49.119 --> 00:26:52.519
So in Seneca's book, he talks about, well, yes, you

463
00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:54.359
need to have boundaries, and you need to be assertive,

464
00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:58.880
and sometimes you might need to show display anger. They

465
00:26:58.920 --> 00:27:01.759
talk about the two examples are if you're a teacher,

466
00:27:01.880 --> 00:27:04.799
you're dealing with young children. And I can't remember the

467
00:27:04.839 --> 00:27:07.960
second one anyway, it was definitely to do with children,

468
00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:13.359
how interesting, and so you you fake some anger, you

469
00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:19.160
you fake anger. But they were they guarded their tranquility

470
00:27:19.400 --> 00:27:24.480
so strongly that they didn't want these big emotions to

471
00:27:24.599 --> 00:27:27.880
tilt them. One of the reasons is that they thought

472
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:30.880
reason was the kind of the way through life. You know,

473
00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:34.559
you get through life by using your mind, by working

474
00:27:34.599 --> 00:27:38.160
things out, by applying reason. And if you were so

475
00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:41.440
full of emotion that you were disturbed, you wouldn't make

476
00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:43.720
good decisions. And so if you think about the decisions

477
00:27:43.720 --> 00:27:46.279
you make when you're angry, sometimes you can have an

478
00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:51.079
amazing clarifying power. It can really strip away, you know,

479
00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:55.039
the crap. But if you're completely making decisions from an

480
00:27:55.039 --> 00:27:58.079
angry place, you can end up in an even worse place.

481
00:27:59.319 --> 00:27:59.519
You know.

482
00:28:01.680 --> 00:28:04.920
I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the

483
00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:07.920
benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are

484
00:28:08.039 --> 00:28:10.759
enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe

485
00:28:10.759 --> 00:28:13.079
so that you get notified when you epps drop and

486
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:15.599
head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen

487
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:25.440
and leave us a rating and review the other thing

488
00:28:25.480 --> 00:28:27.119
that you talk about, just going back to the things

489
00:28:27.119 --> 00:28:30.359
that you can control. There is some terminology which I loved,

490
00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:33.000
and one of them that you refer to a lot

491
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:39.039
through the book is the preferred indifference. Can we talk

492
00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:41.759
about that for a second and how that applies, how

493
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:43.599
we use that.

494
00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:49.680
That's a fascinating concept. I was like, wow, this is interesting.

495
00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:53.799
I hadn't heard it before, but they said that our health, wealth,

496
00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:57.079
and reputation are preferable to have. It's preferable to have them,

497
00:28:57.480 --> 00:29:00.519
but you should be indifferent because each of those things

498
00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:03.400
is outside your control, so you can lose them at

499
00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:07.319
any time. You can invest your money in crypto or

500
00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:12.440
some other form of currency or stock that loses value,

501
00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:15.400
so you get your you lose your fortune. Someone can

502
00:29:15.400 --> 00:29:19.559
start an enemy, can start a rumor, and your career

503
00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:23.039
can be over because your reputations done. Could walk out

504
00:29:23.079 --> 00:29:26.519
on the road, not look get your by car. There's

505
00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:29.119
your health, or you could get you know, a disease.

506
00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:32.359
They're outside your control. You know, you can try and

507
00:29:32.359 --> 00:29:35.599
influence these things, but they're ultimately not up to you,

508
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:39.119
and so you should be indifferent to them because you

509
00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:41.640
don't want to have that disturbance when you lose them,

510
00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:47.319
So you don't want that ataraxia to go out of balance.

511
00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:52.680
So that may sound like crazy to you know, be

512
00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:55.799
indifferent to things that bring us lots of happiness and joy,

513
00:29:55.920 --> 00:29:59.519
like living in a nice house and enjoying a healthy

514
00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:03.920
body and you know, a good reputation and being able

515
00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:07.400
to move around town without people sort of dissing us.

516
00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:10.839
But the Stoics realized that all these things could happen

517
00:30:11.480 --> 00:30:14.359
at any time without, you know, through no fault of

518
00:30:14.359 --> 00:30:19.400
our own. And in order to prepare to prepare for that,

519
00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:22.920
they did some extraordinary things, like they used to fast

520
00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:27.440
a lot, because they said, you know, food supply is insecure.

521
00:30:27.880 --> 00:30:29.559
You could lose all your money, you could not be

522
00:30:29.559 --> 00:30:32.119
able to afford to eat us often. So they did

523
00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:35.720
fasting as a practice to get used to, you know,

524
00:30:35.759 --> 00:30:39.480
a world where food might not be as readily available.

525
00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:43.319
They also did this very strange practice where some some

526
00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:46.440
of them, there was one guy Cato, who wore ridiculous

527
00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:51.839
clothes out and about around Rome, you know, unfashionable clothes

528
00:30:51.880 --> 00:30:55.480
that made him look foolish, and that is to get

529
00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:58.640
used to being kind of humiliated or laughter in the street,

530
00:30:58.759 --> 00:31:02.240
because you know, if you rely on other people thinking

531
00:31:02.279 --> 00:31:05.799
you're fashionable or cool, you're giving your power away to

532
00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:09.319
someone else. So they kind of so true, gave themselves

533
00:31:09.519 --> 00:31:13.920
a hit or a vaccine, a dose of humiliation and

534
00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:19.240
shame and poverty in order to toughen up, so when

535
00:31:19.240 --> 00:31:23.000
they did experience it, they had been used to it.

536
00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:25.039
I really love that.

537
00:31:25.119 --> 00:31:28.160
In fact, I've heard of even psychologists getting clients to

538
00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:31.400
do similar things as a bit of a yeah, like

539
00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:34.400
a resilience building project, like basically, what's the worst possible

540
00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:36.000
thing that could happen. We'll go out and make it

541
00:31:36.039 --> 00:31:38.079
happen and then realize that you survived it, and so

542
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:40.680
actually you can stop worrying.

543
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:41.960
Bridget.

544
00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:45.079
While you were telling that story, I did read about

545
00:31:45.079 --> 00:31:48.519
your puffer jacket, and then I went on to tell

546
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:50.880
my daughter. We went and walked the dogs yesterday and

547
00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:52.880
I told her the story about the puffer and we

548
00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:55.960
were in fits of laughter. I mean, I've never even

549
00:31:56.039 --> 00:31:58.279
seen the puffer, but we were cracking up. But the

550
00:31:58.279 --> 00:32:02.039
way you described your pava, I don't know if I

551
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:04.000
want you to tell this story now, but I mean

552
00:32:04.039 --> 00:32:05.880
you could, but I think people should read the book

553
00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:07.400
because it is it is.

554
00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:10.319
A funny book, you know story we're talking about very

555
00:32:10.359 --> 00:32:12.720
serious stuff. But yes, I've tried to make it as

556
00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:17.000
funny as possible because the Stoics had great senses of humor,

557
00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:21.000
like they were really funny people, and it lends itself

558
00:32:21.079 --> 00:32:24.720
to some really you know, hilarious situations like the big poffer,

559
00:32:24.920 --> 00:32:27.799
which readers can read about when they buy it so

560
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:29.519
we won't spoil it.

561
00:32:29.880 --> 00:32:33.160
Lots of really great stories. I yes, I should say

562
00:32:33.160 --> 00:32:35.599
that as well, like a really kind of a really

563
00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:39.240
fun read actually for stuff that's pretty it does sound serious,

564
00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:42.119
but you've done such a brilliant job because it is

565
00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:45.759
a really fun read and very relatable. Loads of personal

566
00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:50.640
stories about to make this relevant, which obviously that's what

567
00:32:50.680 --> 00:32:54.759
we're all after, is relevant and practical and meaningful, and

568
00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:58.039
that's what this really is. I want to just go

569
00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:01.680
back to you actually open the book, Bridget, just after

570
00:33:01.720 --> 00:33:03.400
I've said this is a really funny book, you.

571
00:33:03.400 --> 00:33:04.680
Actually open with death.

572
00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:08.079
You're actually open with how Stoicism can help us deal

573
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:10.559
with because that's for most of us, our biggest fear.

574
00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:12.759
It's a thing that we avoid thinking about. We pretend

575
00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:15.319
we're going to live forever. We deny the fact that

576
00:33:15.319 --> 00:33:20.160
we're getting older. But you confront this head on straight

577
00:33:20.279 --> 00:33:25.200
up in the book. Can you share just briefly how

578
00:33:25.240 --> 00:33:27.599
the Stoics approached death.

579
00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:30.880
And dying so they saw, well, Seneca said, we're dying

580
00:33:30.920 --> 00:33:35.480
every day. Every day is part of the death process.

581
00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:39.519
You know, we're living, but we're also dying at the

582
00:33:39.519 --> 00:33:41.759
same time, and the day we die is just the

583
00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:46.480
culmination of all the days that we've lived. So it's

584
00:33:46.519 --> 00:33:49.000
something that we never talk about. We don't really think

585
00:33:49.039 --> 00:33:52.720
about when it happens, or when we get a diagnosis

586
00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:55.319
that you know, might be six months to live or

587
00:33:55.359 --> 00:33:58.400
a year or whatever, there's this terrible shock. But the

588
00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:00.640
Stokes kept in front of mine when they were young

589
00:34:00.680 --> 00:34:04.039
and healthy, they thought about it, you know, every day,

590
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:07.519
because they didn't know when they were going to die,

591
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:09.480
Like we don't know when we're going to die. So

592
00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:13.199
it's about making the most of every moment, cherishing the

593
00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:17.719
people that are around you, cherishing their healthy body, great

594
00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:25.719
friends and family, just nature, the world itself, because when

595
00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:28.360
it goes, it's gone forever. You know, we just get

596
00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:31.760
one shot at this, So they really wanted to enjoy

597
00:34:31.800 --> 00:34:34.280
the time that they had, and in order to enjoy it,

598
00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:36.920
they had to remind themselves that it was finite, and.

599
00:34:36.840 --> 00:34:40.519
So they took this fairly confrontational approach. Well, it feels

600
00:34:40.599 --> 00:34:45.159
confronting the way that you describe it, where they say, imagine,

601
00:34:45.159 --> 00:34:47.480
like all of these kind of practical exercises, I guess

602
00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:53.920
where you imagine the people you're closest to are going

603
00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:57.000
to die, but you know literally today, imagine this is

604
00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:59.000
the last time that you're going to see this person,

605
00:34:59.440 --> 00:35:00.239
which no, but he.

606
00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:01.079
Wants to think about.

607
00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:05.480
I'm curious to know what your experience was of that

608
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:09.239
when you started to really immerse yourself into that exercise,

609
00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:12.960
because I know I could straight away preempt that for

610
00:35:13.039 --> 00:35:15.320
many people that would go, oh my god, I'm anxious

611
00:35:15.400 --> 00:35:16.800
enough as it is, but that is just going to

612
00:35:16.840 --> 00:35:19.320
tip me into spiraling anxiety.

613
00:35:19.719 --> 00:35:22.039
So when I started doing that, I did go into

614
00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:25.719
anxiety very quickly because I didn't know when to switch off.

615
00:35:26.360 --> 00:35:30.119
I mean, the Stokes call it negative visualization, So rather

616
00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:35.199
than manifesting positive things, you actually think of the worst thing.

617
00:35:36.199 --> 00:35:38.239
And that's coraintuitive to a lot of us. It's not

618
00:35:38.280 --> 00:35:41.519
a practice that we're used to, but that's what storicism

619
00:35:41.559 --> 00:35:45.599
tells us to do, is to have a negative image

620
00:35:46.159 --> 00:35:48.519
just for a second. But of course I went into

621
00:35:48.559 --> 00:35:52.599
overdrive initially and couldn't stop thinking about people I love dying.

622
00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:55.119
And you know, I'd go to family events and get

623
00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:57.719
very distressed because I had to imagine everyone at the wedding,

624
00:35:58.239 --> 00:36:01.920
you know, being killed in some ghastly manner on the

625
00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:05.239
way home. And I was working on the book with

626
00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:07.639
a friend. I was working on storicism with a friend,

627
00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:10.039
and I spoke to him afterwards and I said, it's

628
00:36:10.280 --> 00:36:14.760
negative visualization. It's terrible, you know, it's it's making me distressed.

629
00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:17.280
And he's like, no, it's like touching your brake. You know.

630
00:36:17.320 --> 00:36:20.079
You just put your foot down gently on the negative

631
00:36:20.119 --> 00:36:21.639
image and then you take it off. You know, you

632
00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:26.599
just have a little second of the negative image, and

633
00:36:26.639 --> 00:36:29.119
then you return to being in the present, being in

634
00:36:29.159 --> 00:36:32.920
the moment, enjoying your friends and family and enjoying your life.

635
00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:36.480
But you don't pretend that it's going to just go

636
00:36:36.519 --> 00:36:41.599
on forever. And what that, you know, has ends up happening,

637
00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:46.239
is that you appreciate people more and you're more in

638
00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:49.480
the moment because you don't know if it will be

639
00:36:49.559 --> 00:36:53.039
the last time. So it's a it's a strong practice,

640
00:36:53.039 --> 00:36:55.519
but it's a really beneficial one and.

641
00:36:55.599 --> 00:36:59.360
Ideally then serves the purpose of removing all of that

642
00:37:00.280 --> 00:37:04.400
that you potentially experienced later when somebody does die or

643
00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:07.079
you don't see somebody again, and you in your mind

644
00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:10.199
thinking about all of the times that you didn't appreciate them,

645
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:13.519
or you didn't do the thing, that you didn't call

646
00:37:13.559 --> 00:37:16.039
them when you thought you should call them, or whatever

647
00:37:16.079 --> 00:37:18.840
it is, because that's what most people really struggle with,

648
00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:21.239
isn't it is that they didn't make the most of

649
00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:22.280
those opportunities.

650
00:37:22.599 --> 00:37:25.599
Yeah, the stoics talk a lot about how in grief

651
00:37:25.639 --> 00:37:29.079
there's a couple of components. The sadness that the person

652
00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:32.119
has gone, but there's also the guilt of not enjoying

653
00:37:32.119 --> 00:37:35.559
them while though we're here and you. Seneca wrote this

654
00:37:35.599 --> 00:37:38.599
amazing letter to a friend of his called Marcia, which

655
00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:40.800
is available on the internet. It's two thousand years old,

656
00:37:40.840 --> 00:37:44.639
but it's an extraordinary, powerful letter about grief and grief

657
00:37:44.679 --> 00:37:48.159
that goes on too long. Marcia's son had been dead

658
00:37:48.199 --> 00:37:51.280
for seven years, and she was still mourning, and the

659
00:37:51.320 --> 00:37:54.440
Stoics call that suffering twice. You suffer once from the

660
00:37:55.119 --> 00:37:58.159
death itself, and then you suffer a second time through

661
00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:04.159
excessive or really long sorrow that destroys, you know, your

662
00:38:04.199 --> 00:38:08.320
other relationships with people that are still alive, or destroys

663
00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:13.239
your tranquility. So, yeah, Seneca wrote, you know, we should

664
00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:16.239
greedily enjoy our friends. You know, we should be when

665
00:38:16.280 --> 00:38:19.159
we're with them and they're alive, we should really soak

666
00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:22.719
it up because we don't know if we'll see them again.

667
00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:26.679
And they're all about living life to the full, and

668
00:38:26.840 --> 00:38:33.000
excessive grief and guilt strip away that sense of living fully.

669
00:38:34.119 --> 00:38:40.159
Yeah, it's very it's very relevant, it's very practical. Just

670
00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:43.360
briefly before we wrap up, Bridget, I mean, we keep

671
00:38:43.400 --> 00:38:46.760
talking to you about this all day. Social media, Like

672
00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:49.239
we live in a world two thousand years ago there

673
00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:52.119
was no social media, There was no I mean, I

674
00:38:52.119 --> 00:38:56.000
guess they had their own version of comparison itis and

675
00:38:56.119 --> 00:38:58.800
all of that stuff that we that we experience in

676
00:38:58.840 --> 00:39:01.840
the modern world. Why would the stoics, do you think,

677
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:07.920
approach social media and this sort of techno driven lives

678
00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:11.199
that we techno addicted lives that we Live.

679
00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:15.039
Great question, because the Stoics, even though they didn't have

680
00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:19.360
social media, seemed to predict it. You know, there's so

681
00:39:19.519 --> 00:39:23.159
much about that you could use about responding to trolling

682
00:39:23.199 --> 00:39:28.079
on Twitter, about fomo on Instagram, about annoying people on Facebook.

683
00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:32.360
They had none of those platforms, but yet they somehow

684
00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:36.320
seemed to have these techniques for dealing with people on

685
00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:39.840
these platforms. So, I mean, my guess is that maybe

686
00:39:39.880 --> 00:39:42.480
the society that they were living in they had lots

687
00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:45.079
of people coming at them, they had lots of enemies.

688
00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:48.079
There are lots of people that were competing with and

689
00:39:48.119 --> 00:39:51.320
they had to develop tools for getting over it. Or

690
00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:55.960
it's just that these are common human things that occur

691
00:39:56.280 --> 00:40:00.480
regardless of technology or not. But I found this Stoics

692
00:40:00.519 --> 00:40:04.599
incredibly useful for dealing with life online. And I'm very

693
00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:10.760
online in my own universe. I'm big on Twitter, but

694
00:40:11.199 --> 00:40:13.440
and I get a lot of you know, I write

695
00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:16.920
a weekly column. I get a lot of blowback. And

696
00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:19.400
the Stoics have been amazing in terms of how to

697
00:40:19.400 --> 00:40:22.119
deal with that, and amazing in terms of how to

698
00:40:22.159 --> 00:40:27.280
deal with fomos. So on fomo, they say, has someone

699
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:30.599
being preferred to you at an entertainment. So did someone

700
00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:32.920
get invited to a party and you weren't invited? So

701
00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:35.599
they must have had that back in their day, and

702
00:40:35.639 --> 00:40:38.400
they say, well, if you're a good character, you'll be

703
00:40:38.440 --> 00:40:40.400
pleased for the person that they got invited. You'll be

704
00:40:40.440 --> 00:40:43.559
gracious about it. And you know, if it turns out

705
00:40:43.639 --> 00:40:47.719
that it was a terrible party, well you haven't missed out,

706
00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:51.159
you know, so you either way, you're pleased that someone

707
00:40:51.199 --> 00:40:54.039
got invited, and if it was bad, you're pleased you're

708
00:40:54.079 --> 00:40:57.239
not there, so you know you'll be fine. And the

709
00:40:57.320 --> 00:41:00.239
other thing they said was it's never a zero some

710
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:04.559
game like if if you didn't go to the music

711
00:41:04.639 --> 00:41:09.199
festival or feast day or whatever, you do something else

712
00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:10.920
with your time, and you might have saved money by

713
00:41:11.000 --> 00:41:15.199
not going. So there's actually a benefit to you in

714
00:41:15.239 --> 00:41:18.519
some respects, just how you perceive it. So they were

715
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:22.400
very smart on stuff like that in terms of say

716
00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:24.880
how I use Twitter. They were great on insults and

717
00:41:24.920 --> 00:41:27.639
that involved you know, once again this anger piece. You know,

718
00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:31.239
don't escalate it and get into this insane fight that

719
00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:35.840
takes up all day. Like make a joke, deflect an insult,

720
00:41:36.599 --> 00:41:41.360
laugh or ignore them, and that advice is you know

721
00:41:42.039 --> 00:41:46.800
that stoic advice is really useful in the online world today.

722
00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:48.760
It's very wise.

723
00:41:49.480 --> 00:41:53.519
These are wise guys. Like it's been hanging this philosophy

724
00:41:53.559 --> 00:41:56.280
has been hanging around for thousands of years. It's just

725
00:41:56.320 --> 00:41:59.280
like an old suit that's in the cupboard and it's

726
00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:02.639
I took it out, dusted it off, and it fits perfectly.

727
00:42:02.760 --> 00:42:05.440
And I think this is a great gift that we've

728
00:42:05.480 --> 00:42:08.719
been given. You know, citizens who've come before us have

729
00:42:08.840 --> 00:42:11.760
thought about all the problems that we based now. They've

730
00:42:11.800 --> 00:42:15.840
written some incredible works, some of which have survived today.

731
00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:20.039
The people I've mentioned on this podcast, Epictetus, Seneca, Marcus Airelius,

732
00:42:20.119 --> 00:42:23.679
you can still read their work. And it's simple enough

733
00:42:23.679 --> 00:42:26.599
that someone like me, who's not a philosopher can come

734
00:42:26.599 --> 00:42:28.800
along and interpret it and write a book and we

735
00:42:28.880 --> 00:42:32.920
can have this discussion. So I feel very kind of

736
00:42:33.320 --> 00:42:38.719
grateful that this exists. And it's it's you don't have

737
00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:41.599
to join a religion or a church, you don't have

738
00:42:41.599 --> 00:42:45.199
to pay anyone any money. It's just there and it's

739
00:42:46.679 --> 00:42:48.599
it's a wonderful from the ancients.

740
00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:51.280
And to wrap up, Bridget.

741
00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:54.639
How so you've been immersed in this for a few

742
00:42:54.719 --> 00:42:57.800
years now. How has it changed you?

743
00:42:58.519 --> 00:43:03.840
Yeah, change me profoundly. I think it's made me less reactive.

744
00:43:04.199 --> 00:43:06.280
I'm less liable to have highs and lows, and that's

745
00:43:06.440 --> 00:43:07.960
that's a good and bad thing, you know. I do

746
00:43:08.039 --> 00:43:12.960
miss the giddy, the giddy, crazy, you know, ecstasy that

747
00:43:13.000 --> 00:43:16.119
I would sometimes experience. That's that's evened out a bit,

748
00:43:17.400 --> 00:43:20.480
so I have less lows, but also those less intense highs.

749
00:43:21.159 --> 00:43:24.719
I'm able to see things a bit clearer, you know,

750
00:43:24.760 --> 00:43:28.679
I'm not, so I'm not so clouded with emotion that

751
00:43:28.840 --> 00:43:32.280
I run away with sort of fantasies or being in

752
00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:34.639
my head too much. I'm a bit more able to

753
00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:39.000
see reality of situations, which I think is really helpful

754
00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:41.639
because if you see reality, you can make better decisions.

755
00:43:42.119 --> 00:43:44.119
You know, you're not sort of living in a delusion

756
00:43:44.159 --> 00:43:47.239
about what you're entitled to or how your life should

757
00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:50.639
look or what you should get. And be in reality

758
00:43:50.800 --> 00:43:54.880
can be hard, but the Stoics, the Stokes kind of

759
00:43:54.920 --> 00:43:56.960
asked that of us. They say, be in reality and

760
00:43:57.079 --> 00:43:59.719
deal with it as it comes up. I feel better

761
00:43:59.719 --> 00:44:04.800
able to cope with things. And I haven't tested it

762
00:44:04.880 --> 00:44:07.920
on grief yet because no one, no one has died

763
00:44:08.119 --> 00:44:11.079
in my life that I'm close to. But but they

764
00:44:11.159 --> 00:44:15.840
will and when that happens, and when I face challenges

765
00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:19.880
of my own in that world, I'll be using the

766
00:44:19.880 --> 00:44:22.559
stoics a lot. I'll be learning on it hard, and

767
00:44:22.639 --> 00:44:26.639
I feel I feel very confident that it will help me,

768
00:44:27.239 --> 00:44:29.760
you know, I feel strong in it. So yeah, and

769
00:44:29.800 --> 00:44:32.199
I just want other people to discover it because it's

770
00:44:32.239 --> 00:44:35.239
been so useful to me, and yeah, I just want

771
00:44:35.239 --> 00:44:36.360
to share it, share the love.

772
00:44:37.400 --> 00:44:40.679
Well, thank you so much for the effort that you've

773
00:44:40.679 --> 00:44:42.840
put into writing this book and making it so accessible

774
00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:48.599
and so enjoyable and also profound to read. Again, I'm

775
00:44:48.639 --> 00:44:51.119
seriously loving it, and thank you for your time today.

776
00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:54.159
Thanks so much, CAAs it's been a real pleasure talking

777
00:44:54.159 --> 00:44:54.480
to you.

778
00:44:58.760 --> 00:45:02.280
Bridget's new book is Reasons Not to Worry, How to

779
00:45:02.360 --> 00:45:04.360
Be Stoic in Chaotic Times.

780
00:45:04.519 --> 00:45:05.480
It is a great read.

781
00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:09.960
You can follow Bridget on Twitter at bridgetwd and if

782
00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:12.400
you love Crappy to Happy, please make sure you subscribe

783
00:45:12.440 --> 00:45:15.360
so that you get notified every time a new episode

784
00:45:15.400 --> 00:45:18.239
is released, which is now weekly. Make sure you leave

785
00:45:18.320 --> 00:45:20.280
us a five star rating and a review. It really

786
00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:23.079
does help us to find new listeners, you can follow

787
00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:27.239
me on Instagram or TikTok. I'm at cast Done Underscore XO.

788
00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:31.280
And for more information about me, my courses, my books,

789
00:45:31.599 --> 00:45:34.440
all of that information is on my website at castdone

790
00:45:34.840 --> 00:45:37.840
dot com. I cannot wait to catch you on the

791
00:45:37.880 --> 00:45:44.840
next episode of Crappy to Happy Listener,