How to worry less with Brigid Delaney

0:02 A listener production. This is Crappita Happy and I am your host, Castune. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist and mindfulness meditation teacher and of. Course author of the Crappita Happy books. In this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their field and who have something of value to share that will help you feel less crappy and more happy. We've all been dealing. With our fair share of hard times over the past few years. There's obviously been all of the challenge and the stress of lockdown with COVID, the climate emergency and the devastating impact of floods and fires, the war in Ukraine, and now a possible global recession just to top things off.

0:51 So it was with great interest that I picked up a brand new book written by Guardian journalist and author Bridget Delaney, is called Reasons Not to Worry. Bridget's brand new book is an accessible introduction to the ancient Greek philosophy of Stoicism. You might have heard of the Stoics. If you have wondered what that's all about, then this is a really great introduction. Bridget has done such a brilliant job of boiling down the essence of this philosophy in a way that is very accessible, very relatable, very humorous, and it's essentially all about how not to sweat the small stuff and how to better appreciate our precious time here on earth. I personally was struck by the overlap between Stoicism and Buddhism, and we had a discussion about that.

1:39 But really, the Stoic philosophers have got a lot of wisdom to share which is super relevant to our lives today. I really enjoyed my chat with Bridget, and I really hope that you get as much out of this conversation as I did. Bridget, Welcome to the Crappy to Happy podcast. Thanks for having me casts and I. Also want to specially thank you for doing this at nine o'clock at night in Melbourne time on our holiday going Above and Beyond. The book is like two days old, so I really want to welcome it into the world. Can I just start straight off the top and say, I love this book.

2:24 Oh thank you. I'm honest to God, I was so excited to talk to you about this. So if anybody is starting to listen to this and thinking they might tune out. I just wanted to say straight up, this is a book. The book is called Reasons Not to Worry, and it is such a fabulous read and such important, just practical, relevant, life changing information which we're about to talk about. So congratulations, Bridget. Thank you so much. I'm glad you got it. You know, like I think stour system's life changing, and I want other people to kind of get the magic as well. So thanks for getting it. Oh can we talk then? So this is a book about Stoicism, which is an ancient Well, you're going to tell me Greek philosophy.

3:09 We pick up these quotes. And memes with these Socrates quotes and these Plato quotes we got. Oh that's all very wise, but none of us really. Dig into who these people were and what their whole philosophy was. But that is what you have done. So can you please explain how did you get started on this journey in the first place. So it was a bit fortuitous. I do a weekly column for The Guardian called Bridget Delaney's Diary, and you know, it's a bit of fun. It's a lighthearted column and one of the editors suggested one week where I had no material that I should do a thing called Stoic Week, which is being Stoic for a week following a program at the University of Sussex Online. And I did that and I wrote a very lighthearted column that didn't quite get what stoicism was. It was very once over life, and I realized after I published it that I hadn't really given the philosophy its due and that I should have probably taken it a bit more seriously because there were some things in there that really resonated. And so the following year I went back and redid the course, but just in for myself, and I did it with a number of friends. We formed a WhatsApp group and we did the readings and we talked about how the philosophy interacted with our lives. And I found that amongst this group of people, which included a friend of mine who was training to be a priest, someone that worked at the Australian, someone that worked for Get Up, a law student, like all these various people got something out

4:41 of stoicism that was really meaningful and changed their lives. And that's when I thought it was probably worth doing a deeper dive in. And so I started really researching them, and then of course the pandemic happened, and that's when stoicism really came into its own for me. So can you give us a broadbrush overview before we dive in a little deeper into what is stoicism all about? Sure things, So you may have heard the word stoic before and think that it means people who are repressed, who don't cry and show your emotion. Right, that's what people think. And the Queen who you know as we're recording this, it's a public holiday in Australia to commemorate her death, and she's often described as stoic. And I think there's a couple of definitions of stoic that are important to talk about. The first definition is the repressed, you know, keep calm, carry on, don't cry version of stoicism. And the second one, which I write about, is the philosophical school, which occurred in ancient Greece or Saturday in ancient Greece in three point fifty BC. And they were called the Stoics because they they met under a painted porch to talk about philosophy, and that porch was called the stower.

5:58 So the origin of word is the meeting place. And then you know, over time that meaning gradually changed. But the Stoics loved life. They were very kind of enthusiastic participants in the world. You know, they certainly cried and laughed and loved and all that sort of stuff. And they were not repressed. So yeah, different meaning. So essentially what they haven't finished the book, but I am well into it. But essentially they came up with this approach to life right to handle the stresses and the challenges of life and to experience a more meaningful life. What was their basic approach.

6:39 Their approach was that suffering's going to if you're alive, you're going to suffer. You're going to have some great things happen, but also you are going to get your share of problems. Everyone does. And those problems might include heartbreak, so a breakup, a loss, falling in love with someone that doesn't love you back. It could also include being unemployed or not getting a job that you really wanted, or losing a job or your company, you know, not succeeding. It can include you know, not being able to have children or having children and then kind of freaking out and having issues with your children. It can include your own illness and eventual death. So all these things are ahead of us in life, or a lot of them are ahead of us. And I think in modern life we pretend that they're not going to happen, and when they do happen, where in a real state, because we haven't had the skills, we haven't been taught the skills to be resilient and to cope with these hardships. So the Stoics believed that when times are good, we should keep in mind that they're going to get harder or they're going to be hard at some point. So how do we cope with that hardship? And I think that's a great attitude because it prepares and it means you don't fall apart when the worst happens. You acknowledge that it's part of life, and then you kind of move on.

8:09 The Thing that really struck me as I was reading your description of Stoicism and what this approach is is because I'm quite into Buddhism and Buddhist psychology, and that's kind of the approach that I bring shows called crappy are Happy. I've written three books about happiness, but I say all the time The version of happiness. I'm selling to you is not that fleeting. When I get a new car, when I get a new house, a new boyfriend, that's when I'll be happy. It's about finding something within us that sustains and knowing that you can deal with the ups and the downs. I'm just curious to know, Bridget, did you, I guess, have any knowledge of Buddhism and Buddhist philosophy And did you realize those parallels as well, because they are so similar.

8:52 Yeah, it's uncannily strong. And when you were describing your own philosophy, it sounds like you're talking about Stoicism, and I think so many people are Stoic without realizing that it's this ancient thing that's older than Christianity. There's a lot of parallels, and I've been trying to find this that I've been doing a bit of press over the last few days and asking radio listeners to ring in if they've got any information. But you know, there seems to have been a crossing on the Silk Road back in the day of a Buddhist coming in from China or India crossing with a Greek Stoic and talking and these ideas really cross pollinates. So where I see similarities in the detachment, you know, there's a level of detachment.

9:41 There's also darma, so the Stoics call it purpose or nature, and of course the Buddhists have darma. So the Stoics believes that in each of us we have a specific nature and that's our path in life. So it might be something like if you're a really kind of naturally caring person, you're like caring for the underdog. It might be that your your purpose is parenting or being a career could be working, you know, with people who are suffering or less privileged, and that's very similar to the dharma aspect in Buddhism. You know, you have your own individual nature that informs the way that your life unfolds, and that you're happiest when you're you're in your nature, when you're expressing your nature. And they also believed that it's within our nature to have community and to share and to be with other people and create a society together.

10:40 People say stoicism is an individualistic philosophy, but they were very much a part of you know, they're very much believed in togetherness and common ground and Marcus Aurelius, one of the great Roman Stoics, said what's good for the bees is good for the hive. You know, what's good for you is actually good for society. So so much truth in that. Yeah, there's all these parallels. And Buddhism, of course, is having you know, since the sixties, obviously in the or earlier in the West, you know, it's been embraced, but Stoicism got kind of, I guess, washed away a bit by Christianity, and a lot of these teachings, whilst they haven't been lost, have not really you know, caught on until recent years when you know that there's particularly sort of people people like Tim Ferriss the podcast in America, and there's another guy, Ryan Holiday. There's a couple of people in the UK who've resurfaced Stoicism. But I think it's got huge potential to really connect with people who don't necessarily want to be religious or be Buddhist. You all love the vibe.

11:51 Yeah, the vibe of the thing exactly. And I was going to say, as much as I'm into I'm into Buddhist philosophy, you know, I'm not a Buddhist. I have seen no way here to talk about Stoicism, not Buddhism, but just as parallels. I have seen the Diala Lama speak a few times. I've been fortunate enough to be in his audience, and people ask the question about is it a religion or is it just a philosophy, and he says, make no mistake, it is a religion. It has its own doctrines and virtues and rituals and vows that you take. You don't have to convert to Buddhism to embrace the fundamentals of Buddhist philosophy. And he also had a bit of an issue with the Christianity and the Christians wanting to convert everybody. But I think for those people who don't, who kin'd of get that it's a bit religious or it's a bit dogmatic. With the Buddhism, I think the Stoicism, it captures all of the same attitudes and practices and philosophies, but in a very secular, non religious way. It really is a life philosophy, isn't it.

12:54 It's a life philosophy, and there's no In fact, it's considered bad form to talk about Stoicism like Epictetus. I know, I'm breaching the laws here, Epictetus said, you know, don't preach it, kind of embody it. You know, be a stoic. You don't need to prophesize or try and convert people. What you want to do is actually be a role model in your own character, and people will emulate you, and so there will be all these kind of secret Stoics. One of the appeals of stoicism in our secular world is that there's no church. You're not required to pay anyone any money, you're not required to worship anyone. You know, it's so modern that I kept on, like when I was researching this book, I was like, how is this stuff pre Christian? It's extraordinarily contemporary. Even the language that they use, you know, they if you're used to reading Chaucer or Shakespeare, you think that, you know, old language is tough to kind of untangle. But Stoicism has this directness and this bluntness in the writing that is super refreshing.

14:00 And you're right, there is no there's none of that religious aspect. But I found it very close to spirituality, Like it really nudged the edge for me in a beautiful way. So one of my I mean my favorite sto like I think he is probably Marcus Aurelius, who wrote a beautiful book called Meditations, which was his diary when he was on the battlefield for many years, you know, I think he was extending the Roman Empire, and he writes about you know, the diary was never meant for publication, but he writes about nature in the most extraordinary way. Just looking up a quote, well, he just writes about so you know, yeah, it's close to spirituality in many ways.

14:45 And how can you not see spirituality in this, which is Marcus Aurelius saying, dwell on the beauty of life. Watch the stars and see yourself running with them. You know. That's that to me, is like kind of static appreciation of life and of nature. So it's not necessarily a dry philosophy that's just in books. It's about this appreciation of the incredible world that we're in and nature and the mysteries of life. Like they were fascinated with the cosmoss and how things were created and the interconnectedness of plants and animals and humans and the way we all kind of fit together. So there's a real beauty in a lot of their thinking and their writing, which I think comes close to spiritual thinking.

15:36 So Bridget, I know that you started getting interested in understanding more about Stoletism in twenty nineteen and at the time, and you talk in the book about bushfires raging through New South Wales and Sydney. Then of course we had the pandemic for two years and all that entailed. And then this year, I mean, I've just moved from Queensland and I know New South Wales a sam We've been devastated by floods. I moved to London to this heat wave like London has never experienced before. There's a lot to be anxious about, Like, there is a lot to be distressed about. I'm curious to know how can stoicism help us to deal with these kind of really big and small uncertainties in our own lives? And I guess also, how has it helped you to deal with some of those things?

16:26 Yeah? Sure, I mean I'm currently in Brisbane right now recording this and it's NonStop rain and I'm staying with my uncle. He's like, oh, still, haven't you know if the weather's really weird? So and it's unsettling, you know, and the whole time I was writing this book, things were happening in the world that were you know, people kept on saying, unpreciden, this is unprecedented, this is unprecident. And I don't know how we're meant to keep taking on things that are unprecedented, like how we're meant to process them. And so it was really assuring for me to find out that throughout history there have been periods of time where people have felt incredibly destabilized, including around the time of the definitely the Roman Stoics, they lived in a really insane time and they thought the climate was collapsing. Wow. As well. Seneca, one of the great kind of Stoic writers I write a lot about in the book, was worried because the ships in Rome were going beyond the boundaries that they'd usually gone. They were extending up to modern day Britain, and he thought that that sort of destroyed the natural order of things. It took the world out of balance. And back then they developed a theory that the world would then be destroyed by either fire or flood because it was out of homeostasis.

17:46 So they had this really insane kind of climate fears. Two thousand years ago, the difference I think with us is we do have the data to back up that our fears are actually that well founded, so there is reason to worry with that. But in other things I apply the Stoic test called the control test, which is an extraordinary, very elegant, very simple Stoic solution for everything. And the Stoics believe that you can only control three things. You can control your character, your own character, your actions and reactions, and how you treat others, and everything else is outside your control. So that doesn't sound like a lot.

18:35 You know, health isn't fully in your control, money, your reputation. That's all you know that can be destroyed in an instant by things that you have no control over. So that can sound really scary, but it's actually really wonderful to know where those boundaries are and where to put your energy. So I can write this book. I can spend years writing it and write it to the best of my ability, but once it's released, I can't control how many people buy it. I can't control the reviews it gets. I can't control if you know, people either love it or hate it. I just have to let it go out in the world. And I think that's the same when people are parents. You know you can't control You can try and mold your children, but ultimately they're they're individuals who are outside your your full control.

19:26 And it's the same with you in marriage, in work. You know, you can try and persuade people and influence them, but you can't ultimately control them. And once you realize you can't, so let it go. Let it go. You have to, and you can. I think the reactions piece is really interesting because you can control your reactions to things, and that's our reactions can be really powerful. If we don't let go, if we are resistant, that can create all these reactions around, you know, just creating disturbance with other people being unhappy, not being content in the present moment. Yeah.

20:09 Within our reactions is acceptance, which is such a powerful, such a powerful tool we have. So yeah. So I apply that test pretty much five times a day. And I'm going to say wrong, Yeah, never wrong. It's so simple, but I agree, so effective, particularly when I mean, I'm a psychologist. You know, I know firsthand, not just myself, but the amount of people that I have worked with in my work who. Become gripped by. Worry and anxiety and the lengths that we go to to try to control the uncontrollable and the knots we turn ourselves into attempting to control the uncontrollable.

20:52 So being able to come back to that and I love that that. Let's say them again. It's your character, your character, action and reactions and how you treat others. Yeah, everything else is out of your pretty trouble. I mean you would have seen as a psychologist, a lot of stoicism has actually found its way into CBT therapy, and you know, it's found its way into kind of branches of psychology and it's never been named as stoicism, but I think it will be for melar. To a lot of people, it's like, well yeah. That well, yeah exactly. And when I say, you know, as a psychologist, I talk to people about acceptance and mindfulness and being present and the only thing that you have. You know, you can choose your values, you can choose how you react to things, but you can't choose anything that's going on around you. So being aware of what's happening, you know, Mindfulness to me is being aware of what's happening around you and also what is arising within you, and they're making a choice about what you do next, as opposed to being hijacked constantly by these things.

21:59 So there is so much much overlap. Tell me about ataraxia. Ataraxia is a great one. It's it's kind of Greek agent, Greek for for tranquility, for equilibrium, for having like an evenness, not going too high, not going too low. It's a sort of emotional homeostasis. You know that word again. We keep coming back to it, that balance. And the Stoics saw that as a kind of perfect like a perfect state to be in because they saw the anger or being kind of gripped by the passions and emotions led to disturbance, and disturbance then led to other disturbance. So say you and I are in a I crash into you and in our cars and you get out and yell at me, and then I yell at you, and there's it's a big kind of emotional mess as well as an accident, and then you will you might then go into work and be you know, still angry, maybe yell at a colleague or yell at one of your kids or whatever. And then that person then is carrying that heat of that exchange and on it goes, and it's a kind of ripple of disturbance. And the stoics were like, let's stop that at the source. Don't react, you know, don't react in that anger. Don't be like you have control over your emotions. It's called reason and it's called slowing down and putting a lid on it.

23:28 And they said that that's in our power to do it. It's difficult, but we can do it. And then that stops all the stuff that spreads out beyond the initial act in this day and age. I mean, there's a chapter in the book about like that starts with a kind of study that was in the Washington Post about how much angry are I think was Americans, how much angrier people are since the pandemic. You know, there's this rage that people don't want to control anymore. Present in the tiniest interactions, people would just ignite. And in Australia at the moment, as in many places in the world, like airports are just a stew of of emotion and reaction and anger because people can't get on the flights.

24:18 They can't you know, they can't get where they want to go. They've been at home for two years, there's this pent up energy and it comes out as anger. It gets taken out on staff, and then. Yeah, it's and honor goes exactly it it goes. And no one's challenging it, you know, because people think, oh, well, they're a customer, they have the right to express this. And in actual fact, the Stoic saw anger as being a real poison, you know, really a terrible thing that we should make huge efforts to control, and it's within our power to control it. So Seneca wrote this entire book called The Era, which I think is Latin on anger about that was a guide, very practical guide about how to deal with anger, and I read that when I was researching this book. You could put it in bookstores today and it is absolutely useful. So they understood anger as being like a primal, you know, very organic human emotion that if I'm controlled, could lead to bad consequences.

25:23 So they developed these systematic responses to it and insisted that to be a good member of society, you keep a lid on the anger. So I've got a question about that. We're not talking about suppressing as in, like you know, bottling up anger, because that's obviously bad, right, So this is more about so from a psychologists perpective, I'm thinking, we acknowledge that we're angry, that we manage what we do with that. Is that fair to say, yeah, you don't want to repress it, and you also don't want to be booked over. So I talk about this a lot in the book, some of the Stoic ideas, and I'm like, oh, you know, if none of us were angry, then how do we create boundaries?

26:06 Nothing would change? Yeah, yeah, nothing would change. And also anger has a very strong political you know, it's a strong political tool. But they talk about this thing called fake anger, which is if someone's walking all over you and you need to be assertive, you actually pretend to get angry, but you assert yourself. It's about what anger does to you as a person, how it ruins your tranquility. So, I mean, the Stoics were incredibly powerful, very successful people in politics in ancient Rome. They did not let people walk all over them, but they saw how having a disturbed inner life was actually counter productive to having a successful outer life.

26:49 So in Seneca's book, he talks about, well, yes, you need to have boundaries, and you need to be assertive, and sometimes you might need to show display anger. They talk about the two examples are if you're a teacher, you're dealing with young children. And I can't remember the second one anyway, it was definitely to do with children, how interesting, and so you you fake some anger, you you fake anger. But they were they guarded their tranquility so strongly that they didn't want these big emotions to tilt them. One of the reasons is that they thought reason was the kind of the way through life. You know, you get through life by using your mind, by working things out, by applying reason. And if you were so full of emotion that you were disturbed, you wouldn't make good decisions. And so if you think about the decisions you make when you're angry, sometimes you can have an amazing clarifying power. It can really strip away, you know, the crap. But if you're completely making decisions from an angry place, you can end up in an even worse place.

27:59 You know. I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe so that you get notified when you epps drop and head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and leave us a rating and review the other thing that you talk about, just going back to the things that you can control. There is some terminology which I loved, and one of them that you refer to a lot through the book is the preferred indifference. Can we talk about that for a second and how that applies, how we use that.

28:43 That's a fascinating concept. I was like, wow, this is interesting. I hadn't heard it before, but they said that our health, wealth, and reputation are preferable to have. It's preferable to have them, but you should be indifferent because each of those things is outside your control, so you can lose them at any time. You can invest your money in crypto or some other form of currency or stock that loses value, so you get your you lose your fortune. Someone can start an enemy, can start a rumor, and your career can be over because your reputations done. Could walk out on the road, not look get your by car. There's your health, or you could get you know, a disease.

29:30 They're outside your control. You know, you can try and influence these things, but they're ultimately not up to you, and so you should be indifferent to them because you don't want to have that disturbance when you lose them, So you don't want that ataraxia to go out of balance. So that may sound like crazy to you know, be indifferent to things that bring us lots of happiness and joy, like living in a nice house and enjoying a healthy body and you know, a good reputation and being able to move around town without people sort of dissing us. But the Stoics realized that all these things could happen at any time without, you know, through no fault of our own. And in order to prepare to prepare for that, they did some extraordinary things, like they used to fast a lot, because they said, you know, food supply is insecure.

30:27 You could lose all your money, you could not be able to afford to eat us often. So they did fasting as a practice to get used to, you know, a world where food might not be as readily available. They also did this very strange practice where some some of them, there was one guy Cato, who wore ridiculous clothes out and about around Rome, you know, unfashionable clothes that made him look foolish, and that is to get used to being kind of humiliated or laughter in the street, because you know, if you rely on other people thinking you're fashionable or cool, you're giving your power away to someone else. So they kind of so true, gave themselves a hit or a vaccine, a dose of humiliation and shame and poverty in order to toughen up, so when they did experience it, they had been used to it.

31:23 I really love that. In fact, I've heard of even psychologists getting clients to do similar things as a bit of a yeah, like a resilience building project, like basically, what's the worst possible thing that could happen. We'll go out and make it happen and then realize that you survived it, and so actually you can stop worrying. Bridget. While you were telling that story, I did read about your puffer jacket, and then I went on to tell my daughter. We went and walked the dogs yesterday and I told her the story about the puffer and we were in fits of laughter. I mean, I've never even seen the puffer, but we were cracking up. But the way you described your pava, I don't know if I want you to tell this story now, but I mean you could, but I think people should read the book because it is it is.

32:07 A funny book, you know story we're talking about very serious stuff. But yes, I've tried to make it as funny as possible because the Stoics had great senses of humor, like they were really funny people, and it lends itself to some really you know, hilarious situations like the big poffer, which readers can read about when they buy it so we won't spoil it. Lots of really great stories. I yes, I should say that as well, like a really kind of a really fun read actually for stuff that's pretty it does sound serious, but you've done such a brilliant job because it is a really fun read and very relatable. Loads of personal stories about to make this relevant, which obviously that's what we're all after, is relevant and practical and meaningful, and that's what this really is. I want to just go back to you actually open the book, Bridget, just after I've said this is a really funny book, you.

33:03 Actually open with death. You're actually open with how Stoicism can help us deal with because that's for most of us, our biggest fear. It's a thing that we avoid thinking about. We pretend we're going to live forever. We deny the fact that we're getting older. But you confront this head on straight up in the book. Can you share just briefly how the Stoics approached death. And dying so they saw, well, Seneca said, we're dying every day. Every day is part of the death process. You know, we're living, but we're also dying at the same time, and the day we die is just the culmination of all the days that we've lived. So it's something that we never talk about. We don't really think about when it happens, or when we get a diagnosis that you know, might be six months to live or a year or whatever, there's this terrible shock. But the Stokes kept in front of mine when they were young and healthy, they thought about it, you know, every day, because they didn't know when they were going to die, Like we don't know when we're going to die. So it's about making the most of every moment, cherishing the people that are around you, cherishing their healthy body, great friends and family, just nature, the world itself, because when it goes, it's gone forever. You know, we just get one shot at this, So they really wanted to enjoy the time that they had, and in order to enjoy it,

34:34 they had to remind themselves that it was finite, and. So they took this fairly confrontational approach. Well, it feels confronting the way that you describe it, where they say, imagine, like all of these kind of practical exercises, I guess where you imagine the people you're closest to are going to die, but you know literally today, imagine this is the last time that you're going to see this person, which no, but he. Wants to think about. I'm curious to know what your experience was of that when you started to really immerse yourself into that exercise, because I know I could straight away preempt that for many people that would go, oh my god, I'm anxious enough as it is, but that is just going to tip me into spiraling anxiety.

35:19 So when I started doing that, I did go into anxiety very quickly because I didn't know when to switch off. I mean, the Stokes call it negative visualization, So rather than manifesting positive things, you actually think of the worst thing. And that's coraintuitive to a lot of us. It's not a practice that we're used to, but that's what storicism tells us to do, is to have a negative image just for a second. But of course I went into overdrive initially and couldn't stop thinking about people I love dying. And you know, I'd go to family events and get very distressed because I had to imagine everyone at the wedding, you know, being killed in some ghastly manner on the way home. And I was working on the book with a friend. I was working on storicism with a friend, and I spoke to him afterwards and I said, it's negative visualization. It's terrible, you know, it's it's making me distressed.

36:15 And he's like, no, it's like touching your brake. You know. You just put your foot down gently on the negative image and then you take it off. You know, you just have a little second of the negative image, and then you return to being in the present, being in the moment, enjoying your friends and family and enjoying your life. But you don't pretend that it's going to just go on forever. And what that, you know, has ends up happening, is that you appreciate people more and you're more in the moment because you don't know if it will be the last time. So it's a it's a strong practice, but it's a really beneficial one and.

36:55 Ideally then serves the purpose of removing all of that that you potentially experienced later when somebody does die or you don't see somebody again, and you in your mind thinking about all of the times that you didn't appreciate them, or you didn't do the thing, that you didn't call them when you thought you should call them, or whatever it is, because that's what most people really struggle with, isn't it is that they didn't make the most of those opportunities. Yeah, the stoics talk a lot about how in grief there's a couple of components. The sadness that the person has gone, but there's also the guilt of not enjoying them while though we're here and you. Seneca wrote this amazing letter to a friend of his called Marcia, which is available on the internet. It's two thousand years old, but it's an extraordinary, powerful letter about grief and grief that goes on too long. Marcia's son had been dead for seven years, and she was still mourning, and the Stoics call that suffering twice. You suffer once from the death itself, and then you suffer a second time through excessive or really long sorrow that destroys, you know, your other relationships with people that are still alive, or destroys your tranquility. So, yeah, Seneca wrote, you know, we should greedily enjoy our friends. You know, we should be when we're with them and they're alive, we should really soak it up because we don't know if we'll see them again.

38:23 And they're all about living life to the full, and excessive grief and guilt strip away that sense of living fully. Yeah, it's very it's very relevant, it's very practical. Just briefly before we wrap up, Bridget, I mean, we keep talking to you about this all day. Social media, Like we live in a world two thousand years ago there was no social media, There was no I mean, I guess they had their own version of comparison itis and all of that stuff that we that we experience in the modern world. Why would the stoics, do you think, approach social media and this sort of techno driven lives that we techno addicted lives that we Live.

39:11 Great question, because the Stoics, even though they didn't have social media, seemed to predict it. You know, there's so much about that you could use about responding to trolling on Twitter, about fomo on Instagram, about annoying people on Facebook. They had none of those platforms, but yet they somehow seemed to have these techniques for dealing with people on these platforms. So, I mean, my guess is that maybe the society that they were living in they had lots of people coming at them, they had lots of enemies. There are lots of people that were competing with and they had to develop tools for getting over it. Or it's just that these are common human things that occur regardless of technology or not. But I found this Stoics incredibly useful for dealing with life online. And I'm very online in my own universe. I'm big on Twitter, but and I get a lot of you know, I write a weekly column. I get a lot of blowback. And the Stoics have been amazing in terms of how to deal with that, and amazing in terms of how to deal with fomos. So on fomo, they say, has someone being preferred to you at an entertainment. So did someone get invited to a party and you weren't invited? So they must have had that back in their day, and they say, well, if you're a good character, you'll be pleased for the person that they got invited. You'll be gracious about it. And you know, if it turns out

40:43 that it was a terrible party, well you haven't missed out, you know, so you either way, you're pleased that someone got invited, and if it was bad, you're pleased you're not there, so you know you'll be fine. And the other thing they said was it's never a zero some game like if if you didn't go to the music festival or feast day or whatever, you do something else with your time, and you might have saved money by not going. So there's actually a benefit to you in some respects, just how you perceive it. So they were very smart on stuff like that in terms of say how I use Twitter. They were great on insults and that involved you know, once again this anger piece. You know, don't escalate it and get into this insane fight that takes up all day. Like make a joke, deflect an insult, laugh or ignore them, and that advice is you know that stoic advice is really useful in the online world today.

41:47 It's very wise. These are wise guys. Like it's been hanging this philosophy has been hanging around for thousands of years. It's just like an old suit that's in the cupboard and it's I took it out, dusted it off, and it fits perfectly. And I think this is a great gift that we've been given. You know, citizens who've come before us have thought about all the problems that we based now. They've written some incredible works, some of which have survived today. The people I've mentioned on this podcast, Epictetus, Seneca, Marcus Airelius, you can still read their work. And it's simple enough that someone like me, who's not a philosopher can come along and interpret it and write a book and we can have this discussion. So I feel very kind of grateful that this exists. And it's it's you don't have to join a religion or a church, you don't have to pay anyone any money. It's just there and it's it's a wonderful from the ancients.

42:49 And to wrap up, Bridget. How so you've been immersed in this for a few years now. How has it changed you? Yeah, change me profoundly. I think it's made me less reactive. I'm less liable to have highs and lows, and that's that's a good and bad thing, you know. I do miss the giddy, the giddy, crazy, you know, ecstasy that I would sometimes experience. That's that's evened out a bit, so I have less lows, but also those less intense highs. I'm able to see things a bit clearer, you know, I'm not, so I'm not so clouded with emotion that I run away with sort of fantasies or being in my head too much. I'm a bit more able to see reality of situations, which I think is really helpful because if you see reality, you can make better decisions.

43:42 You know, you're not sort of living in a delusion about what you're entitled to or how your life should look or what you should get. And be in reality can be hard, but the Stoics, the Stokes kind of asked that of us. They say, be in reality and deal with it as it comes up. I feel better able to cope with things. And I haven't tested it on grief yet because no one, no one has died in my life that I'm close to. But but they will and when that happens, and when I face challenges of my own in that world, I'll be using the stoics a lot. I'll be learning on it hard, and I feel I feel very confident that it will help me, you know, I feel strong in it. So yeah, and I just want other people to discover it because it's been so useful to me, and yeah, I just want to share it, share the love.

44:37 Well, thank you so much for the effort that you've put into writing this book and making it so accessible and so enjoyable and also profound to read. Again, I'm seriously loving it, and thank you for your time today. Thanks so much, CAAs it's been a real pleasure talking to you. Bridget's new book is Reasons Not to Worry, How to Be Stoic in Chaotic Times. It is a great read. You can follow Bridget on Twitter at bridgetwd and if you love Crappy to Happy, please make sure you subscribe so that you get notified every time a new episode is released, which is now weekly. Make sure you leave us a five star rating and a review. It really does help us to find new listeners, you can follow me on Instagram or TikTok. I'm at cast Done Underscore XO.

45:27 And for more information about me, my courses, my books, all of that information is on my website at castdone dot com. I cannot wait to catch you on the next episode of Crappy to Happy Listener,