Sept. 4, 2025

How You Can Be Powerful AND Likeable with Dr Kate Mason

How You Can Be Powerful AND Likeable with Dr Kate Mason
How You Can Be Powerful AND Likeable with Dr Kate Mason
Crappy to Happy
How You Can Be Powerful AND Likeable with Dr Kate Mason
Apple Podcasts podcast player iconSpotify podcast player iconCastro podcast player iconPocketCasts podcast player iconPodchaser podcast player icon
Apple Podcasts podcast player iconSpotify podcast player iconCastro podcast player iconPocketCasts podcast player iconPodchaser podcast player icon
Season 16MindsetWomen's Health And WellbeingSelf-Confidence

Dr. Kate Mason unpacks the false dichotomy that suggests women must choose between being liked and being respected, and explains how this mindset leads to self-doubt and diminished confidence. Kate shares practical strategies for overcoming common communication pitfalls women fall into, such as over-apologising and minimising their contributions. This episode is a must-listen for any woman looking to assert herself confidently while still being true to her authentic self.Takeaways:

  • Women often prioritise being liked over being respected because they're conditioned to believe they must choose one or the other.
  • The idea that likability and authority are mutually exclusive is a misconception that needs to be challenged.
  • Striving for connection and presence is a more effective strategy than trying to be confident.
  • Presenting as calm is a great way to demonstrate leadership and executive presence
  • Over-preparing can undermine confidence and authenticity; practising a lighter touch approach is often more effective.

Connect with Dr Kate Mason
https://www.katemason.co/
Book: Powerfully Likeable out on 9 September 2025

Connect with Cass:

www.cassdunn.com
www.instagram.com/cassdunn_xo

Contact Crappy to Happy:

Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
www.crappytohappypod.com
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypod
www.tiktok.com/@crappytohappypod


Are you a coach, therapist, service provider or solopreneur struggling with self-doubt and imposter syndrome? I'd love to talk to you! (for market research purposes only!)

Book a call with me to share your experience.

Want more great content and less ads?

Upgrade to Paid in the Spotify or Apple podcasts App to get immediate access to "Beyond Happy", the subscriber only podcast featuring bonus content, meditations and more!

Chapters

00:00 - Untitled

00:37 - Introducing Doctor Kate Mason

02:09 - The Dichotomy of Respect and Likability

27:01 - Balancing Confidence and Authenticity

34:20 - Navigating Gendered Communication in the Workplace

43:50 - The Dangers of Over-Preparation

Transcript
WEBVTT

1
00:00:04.559 --> 00:00:07.679
This is Crappita Happy and I am your host, Cas Dunn.

2
00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:13.160
I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist. I'm mindfulness meditation teacher

3
00:00:13.240 --> 00:00:16.120
and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In

4
00:00:16.160 --> 00:00:20.440
this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent

5
00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:23.359
people who are experts in their field and who have

6
00:00:23.480 --> 00:00:25.800
something of value to share that will help you feel

7
00:00:25.960 --> 00:00:38.520
less crappy and more happy. Doctor Kate Mason is an

8
00:00:38.560 --> 00:00:43.000
executive communication coach, a world champion debater, and she has

9
00:00:43.079 --> 00:00:46.200
coached thousands of women, from teenage girls to c suite

10
00:00:46.359 --> 00:00:49.840
leaders on how to use their voice without losing themselves.

11
00:00:50.280 --> 00:00:54.320
She works with teams from Google, Netflix, Microsoft, Uber, Very

12
00:00:54.320 --> 00:00:57.840
Impressive List and many more. And she has written a

13
00:00:57.840 --> 00:01:03.039
book called Powerfully Likable, a Woman's Guide to Effective Communication.

14
00:01:03.799 --> 00:01:05.799
I'm gonna straight off the about high recommend that every

15
00:01:05.840 --> 00:01:07.599
woman go get a copy of this book. It is

16
00:01:07.640 --> 00:01:10.640
a smart, funny and practical guide for what happens when

17
00:01:10.680 --> 00:01:12.920
women try to speak up in a world that keeps

18
00:01:12.920 --> 00:01:16.599
telling them no. Doctor Kate Mason, Welcome to the Crappy

19
00:01:16.599 --> 00:01:17.439
to Happy Podcast.

20
00:01:17.840 --> 00:01:20.120
Thanks so much for having me, Cass Kate.

21
00:01:20.599 --> 00:01:24.560
I remember a long time ago, somebody said ask. If

22
00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:27.280
you ask somebody whether it's more important to them to

23
00:01:27.319 --> 00:01:31.400
be respected or to be liked, they will usually tell you,

24
00:01:31.439 --> 00:01:33.280
if they give it some thought, that will usually say no, no, no,

25
00:01:33.319 --> 00:01:36.280
it's more important for me to be respected. I think

26
00:01:36.280 --> 00:01:38.280
that's more important. But then if you ask them to

27
00:01:38.319 --> 00:01:40.640
look at all of their behaviors, like what they've been doing,

28
00:01:40.640 --> 00:01:42.480
and the decisions that they've been making, and how they've

29
00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:46.920
been managing conversations, usually you will find that their priority

30
00:01:47.239 --> 00:01:50.879
has been in action, has been more focused on being liked.

31
00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:54.200
Which is why when I saw you had written this

32
00:01:54.439 --> 00:02:00.599
book about this kind of likability versus respect, almost I

33
00:02:00.760 --> 00:02:04.319
was so keen to talk to you about it. So

34
00:02:04.840 --> 00:02:09.039
are people women prioritizing being liked over being respected?

35
00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:13.719
It's so funny, isn't it. I've seen the same comment,

36
00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:16.360
and I think it was actually Adam Grant who tweeted

37
00:02:16.400 --> 00:02:20.919
something about this semi recently. Yeah, about this dichotomy or

38
00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:25.800
binary if you like, between respect and likability. And part

39
00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:28.120
of the work that I try to do is to

40
00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:32.439
say this isn't a binary. There are not limited options here,

41
00:02:32.560 --> 00:02:35.199
you know, at the leadership buffet. I think for many

42
00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:38.560
of us, and many women, we feel like, oh, I'm

43
00:02:38.599 --> 00:02:41.439
only allowed to pick one. I'm only allowed to pick

44
00:02:41.479 --> 00:02:45.240
for example, being authoritative, and that means I must not

45
00:02:45.360 --> 00:02:48.400
have any friends or be likable or anything else. Right.

46
00:02:48.520 --> 00:02:51.439
And similarly, we think, well, I can't be powerful if

47
00:02:51.479 --> 00:02:53.439
I want to be nice, so I better just be

48
00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:56.439
nice and have friends and be liked in the office,

49
00:02:56.479 --> 00:02:59.560
and I'll leave power to someone else. And so it's

50
00:02:59.599 --> 00:03:03.360
almost feels like there's a scarcity mindset even before we

51
00:03:03.439 --> 00:03:07.120
answer that question in fullness, right, which is we're only

52
00:03:07.159 --> 00:03:09.080
allowed to pick one at the beginning.

53
00:03:10.120 --> 00:03:12.680
Yeah. That And you know, even when I have asked

54
00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:14.759
that question of people over the years, because I can

55
00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:16.719
tell you that it was probably closer to twenty years

56
00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:19.919
ago that I first heard that, And often people will

57
00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:24.199
respond their first response would be, well both, like I

58
00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:28.039
want I want both? Okay. So if somebody believes that,

59
00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:32.319
potentially it is a dichotomy, if they are prioritizing agreeableness.

60
00:03:32.680 --> 00:03:36.639
What kind of behaviors are you seeing? Like, how does

61
00:03:36.680 --> 00:03:40.240
this play out in people's behaviors in the workplace, for example,

62
00:03:40.680 --> 00:03:43.680
if they have that idea in their head, like it's

63
00:03:43.719 --> 00:03:44.199
one or the other.

64
00:03:44.680 --> 00:03:48.280
Yes, I think it's a great question. So It's interesting

65
00:03:48.360 --> 00:03:53.560
that we code likability with agreeableness. Right. Likability and where

66
00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:56.960
I like to push is really just people being happy

67
00:03:57.000 --> 00:03:59.360
to be in your orbit. Right, you feel if you've

68
00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:02.360
got somebody in or but who's likable. Chances are you

69
00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:04.759
smile when you realize you're catching up with them, or

70
00:04:04.759 --> 00:04:06.800
you feel happy you've got a meeting with them that day.

71
00:04:07.159 --> 00:04:09.800
It's not necessarily that they bend over backwards for you

72
00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:13.159
or are very subservient or agreeable. It's just that you

73
00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:16.160
like being around them. And for whatever reason, as women,

74
00:04:16.199 --> 00:04:20.040
we've decided to encode being likable with someone who says yeah, sure,

75
00:04:20.079 --> 00:04:23.360
no worries and has porous boundaries and you know, is

76
00:04:23.560 --> 00:04:28.279
very demure and accepting of things as distinct from someone

77
00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:30.399
who could just be likable. So that's one thing I'll

78
00:04:30.439 --> 00:04:32.800
call out, which I'd love to get into. But you

79
00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:34.720
ask about that, what are the types of behaviors that

80
00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:38.279
I see? Well, I see a lot of poorest boundaries,

81
00:04:38.319 --> 00:04:40.519
is one. Right, I'm not sure when I'm going to

82
00:04:40.600 --> 00:04:42.560
hold a line on something or I'm going to say

83
00:04:42.600 --> 00:04:45.120
yes and then maybe regret it later. I see a

84
00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:49.279
lot of over apologizing, right, apologizing for things that aren't

85
00:04:49.519 --> 00:04:52.959
your problem or aren't up to you to solve. I

86
00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:56.120
see a lot of minimization, it'll just take a sec

87
00:04:56.240 --> 00:04:59.639
or I'll pop by your desk, or no worries if not.

88
00:05:01.279 --> 00:05:04.600
I see a lot of failure to own an accomplishment.

89
00:05:04.920 --> 00:05:09.160
You know. Oh, yes, yeah, you know. I studied, you know,

90
00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:12.040
at this sort of area where reality you've got a master's.

91
00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:15.439
So there's there's certain patterns that I think we all

92
00:05:16.279 --> 00:05:20.800
have recognized or seen and at times strategically have employed. Right,

93
00:05:20.839 --> 00:05:23.639
There's there's times where you don't want to be that guy,

94
00:05:23.959 --> 00:05:27.839
But those are the behaviors that I do see enough

95
00:05:27.959 --> 00:05:31.199
that I realize, oh, there's some patterning here that to

96
00:05:31.279 --> 00:05:33.920
me is really interesting and felt worthy of, you know,

97
00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:35.040
further investigation.

98
00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:38.199
You've got women in the title A Woman's Guide to

99
00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:42.959
Effective Communication? Is this typically behavior of women? I mean,

100
00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:45.920
I'm sure there are exceptions, but typically this is quite

101
00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:48.839
a gendered issue, it is.

102
00:05:49.160 --> 00:05:51.879
It's a great question, Cass. I coach men and women,

103
00:05:52.360 --> 00:05:56.480
but I particularly, I suppose I have a passion for

104
00:05:56.720 --> 00:05:59.160
the women I work with in particular mainly because I

105
00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:03.399
resonate so much more with their own stories, because I've

106
00:06:03.439 --> 00:06:07.800
come through that and that so that it is always

107
00:06:07.839 --> 00:06:10.680
a particular draw for me. I do think there are

108
00:06:10.879 --> 00:06:13.000
men who struggle with some of these things. But I

109
00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:15.839
wanted to write the book through the lens of women,

110
00:06:15.959 --> 00:06:18.800
partly because it's what I know, and partly it's because

111
00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:21.879
where I saw those patterns be really obvious to me,

112
00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:24.680
and I thought that could be most helpful. But you're

113
00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:27.000
absolutely right. I think a man could read this book

114
00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:30.560
and learn a lot. It's just that the lens for

115
00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:33.759
me was really I think we all walk tight ropes

116
00:06:33.800 --> 00:06:36.319
at work, but I think the gendered ones to me

117
00:06:36.399 --> 00:06:37.560
are really really interesting.

118
00:06:39.240 --> 00:06:40.800
You know, just as you were talking then, and I

119
00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:45.639
was thinking about the conditioning or the expectations that women have,

120
00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:47.480
you just rattled off a whole lot, and we could

121
00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:51.079
all just tick the boxes when you soften your language,

122
00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:54.319
and you just well, I just think or in my opinion,

123
00:06:54.439 --> 00:06:58.000
you know, not being direct with putting a point across.

124
00:06:58.160 --> 00:07:01.279
There are so many examples, and then there is this

125
00:07:01.439 --> 00:07:05.199
expectation or this stereotype I guess about the way men

126
00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:08.000
communicate and the way men behave in the workplace. And

127
00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:10.120
I'm even wondering, just as you were talking, then if

128
00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:12.319
there are men who even feel a little bit boxed

129
00:07:12.319 --> 00:07:15.639
in by that expectation. Who might feel like they have

130
00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:19.560
to be very kind of forthright and direct and not

131
00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:22.240
warm and compassionate and soft and you know, all of

132
00:07:22.279 --> 00:07:24.920
those qualities that we typically associate with women. If they

133
00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:26.839
almost feel like they have to live up to some

134
00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:29.199
other expectation that's not true to them.

135
00:07:29.319 --> 00:07:31.959
Agree more. I couldn't agree more. I mean, binaries hurt

136
00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:36.439
everybody right right because they're exclusionary and they demand certain

137
00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:39.839
things from us. I think some people can take advantage

138
00:07:39.839 --> 00:07:42.519
of them, and other people, as you say, feel super

139
00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:44.600
constrained by them. And I have a lot of male

140
00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:47.879
clients who say things like I want to be authoritative,

141
00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:50.160
but I don't want to man's blain, you know it

142
00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:52.720
will be accused of that. Or I want to be

143
00:07:52.959 --> 00:07:55.319
in charge, but I also want to be really compassionate

144
00:07:55.319 --> 00:07:58.759
and kind, like how do I I don't necessarily have

145
00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:01.759
a masculine role of someone doing that, and how do

146
00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:04.439
I do it? So I think you're right self aware

147
00:08:04.519 --> 00:08:08.879
people are asking all of those questions and really hyper mindful,

148
00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:12.240
like what am I saying? And how am I leveraging

149
00:08:12.319 --> 00:08:17.519
my own strengths in these situations to get to get

150
00:08:17.519 --> 00:08:20.560
what I want, to motivate my team, to get people

151
00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:22.800
excited about whatever I'm selling. You know, there's so many

152
00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:25.680
different contexts we use these sorts of things, and I

153
00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:27.680
think it's right to be thoughtful about it.

154
00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:30.959
So they're in the workplace and they're just taking a

155
00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:36.399
sec and all of these ways that they're prioritizing being likable,

156
00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:41.559
and how that is minimizing and kind of softening and

157
00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:45.120
making themselves small. What I was going to ask you about, essentially,

158
00:08:45.240 --> 00:08:48.879
is what is the relationship between this focusing on likability

159
00:08:49.080 --> 00:08:50.360
and confidence at work?

160
00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:53.080
Oh that's a great one. So one of the things

161
00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:56.639
when you're focusing all sort of over rotating on likability

162
00:08:56.720 --> 00:09:00.720
like that, is that you actually do yourself and your

163
00:09:00.799 --> 00:09:04.559
work a great disservice. Because what you're saying to me,

164
00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:07.039
if you say, Kate, this will just take two seconds,

165
00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:10.440
is I immediately think whatever you're going to tell me

166
00:09:10.600 --> 00:09:13.399
is not that important. If it's just two seconds, you

167
00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:15.679
must be about to tell me, Hey, the meeting's at

168
00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:18.679
three point thirty, not three, right. And of course there

169
00:09:18.679 --> 00:09:21.080
are those sorts of updates and those are valet, but

170
00:09:21.159 --> 00:09:23.240
you're certainly not going to be sitting me down to

171
00:09:23.279 --> 00:09:27.000
walk me through this massive epiphany you've had, because definitionally,

172
00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:29.120
that's not going to be that sort of a meeting.

173
00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:31.799
So suddenly, if you think about being your manager or

174
00:09:31.799 --> 00:09:34.240
the person you're trying to ask for two seconds from

175
00:09:34.639 --> 00:09:38.440
you've immediately told them in your language, this is not important,

176
00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:42.639
and by extension, I don't see myself as worthy of

177
00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:47.039
having your time and what that. That's a devastating thing

178
00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:51.360
to do with just our language. And you know you've

179
00:09:51.720 --> 00:09:54.039
managed people or been managed. We've all been in these

180
00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:57.039
situations at some point in our careers, even if we've

181
00:09:57.039 --> 00:10:00.840
only had managers, right, we're early career. It's a devastating

182
00:10:00.919 --> 00:10:04.879
thing to essentially encode your language many times a day,

183
00:10:05.320 --> 00:10:08.200
or maybe many times even in the same meeting with

184
00:10:08.919 --> 00:10:12.159
I'm not worthy or my idea is not worthy to me.

185
00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:15.279
That's like, out of the gate, what a terrible mistake

186
00:10:15.399 --> 00:10:17.360
that we are making. So a lot of it is

187
00:10:17.919 --> 00:10:21.320
very very subconscious. We're not trying to do that. What

188
00:10:21.440 --> 00:10:24.320
I call that or what I think about these patterns,

189
00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:29.679
I call them imposing syndrome. Right, it's not an imposter syndrome.

190
00:10:29.720 --> 00:10:33.120
It's this fear of making an imposition on someone. We

191
00:10:33.159 --> 00:10:36.399
fear that we're making an imposition of their time, of

192
00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:39.600
their resources, right, I can't ask for more budget, I

193
00:10:39.639 --> 00:10:42.639
can't ask, I couldn't possibly. And we say things like

194
00:10:42.679 --> 00:10:44.840
it'll just take two seconds or no worries. If not,

195
00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:46.919
it's like, please bease, I'll just be so tiny as

196
00:10:46.919 --> 00:10:50.000
to not cause a worry. So we were shrinking down.

197
00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:52.320
And I know it's a bit cliche to say, you know,

198
00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:55.200
take up space or all of those sorts of things

199
00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:59.480
you see on you know, inspirational mugs, but essentially, when

200
00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:02.840
we're not taking up space, the inferences I think are

201
00:11:02.919 --> 00:11:06.799
quite serious. And so I'm really interested at the level

202
00:11:06.799 --> 00:11:12.360
of language. Are we accidentally undermining ourselves before we've even

203
00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:14.919
put our idea on the table, like it takes guts

204
00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:17.679
to think up a thing and to want to tell

205
00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:20.879
someone about it, And are we, in doing that brave

206
00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:25.559
step accidentally kind of stepping backwards in doing so. And

207
00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:27.600
so you can see there's lots of ways that we

208
00:11:27.639 --> 00:11:32.120
can think about recasting those that would change in our confidence.

209
00:11:32.159 --> 00:11:34.759
And as you say, what's the relationship with that, I

210
00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:38.600
think the relationship is when you overfocus or over rotate

211
00:11:38.679 --> 00:11:42.720
on likability, your own confidence does go down because at

212
00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:46.759
each point you're questioning am I worthy? Probably not? That's

213
00:11:46.759 --> 00:11:48.600
what your language is saying to me.

214
00:11:49.320 --> 00:11:53.480
And you know, I run a program around imposter syndrome

215
00:11:53.559 --> 00:11:57.320
actually and self doubt. And it's not about power poses

216
00:11:57.360 --> 00:12:00.639
and all of that kind of overt what you think

217
00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:03.759
confidence looks like. It really is much more about that grounded,

218
00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:07.799
kind of calm self assurance that comes from knowing your worth.

219
00:12:07.879 --> 00:12:10.720
But I therefore speak to a lot of women and

220
00:12:10.759 --> 00:12:15.679
some men who who genuinely don't feel worthy, They don't

221
00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:19.159
feel like they belong, and therefore that does come out

222
00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:23.639
in their language. So I'm wondering, if you know, even

223
00:12:23.679 --> 00:12:27.240
if they change the way they speak, if they change

224
00:12:27.279 --> 00:12:30.679
the way they communicate, will that almost have the effect

225
00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:33.840
of bolstering their sense of I do belong?

226
00:12:34.600 --> 00:12:37.480
I do does? Yeah, it really does in my experience. Yeah.

227
00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:40.120
So I have a chapter in the book actually called

228
00:12:40.200 --> 00:12:44.000
kill your Confidence, which is the idea that the more

229
00:12:44.039 --> 00:12:46.000
we're told, oh, I need to work on my confidence

230
00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:48.279
or I need to fix my executive presence, we get

231
00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:50.240
in our own head about it, right, And I think,

232
00:12:50.600 --> 00:12:52.759
does this work? Is that working? And I don't know

233
00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:54.960
about you, but I've never been in a situation where

234
00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:58.200
someone said thanks so much for such a confident meeting, right, Like,

235
00:12:58.440 --> 00:13:00.679
we just don't think about it that way. But what

236
00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:03.159
we do say thank you for are like you think,

237
00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:06.120
thanks for listening, thanks for validating, thanks for being creating,

238
00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:09.480
thanks for having good ideas. So a lot of it

239
00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:12.440
is really about how can I demonstrate Or one of

240
00:13:12.440 --> 00:13:16.360
the frames I use is even if I'm very down

241
00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:20.000
on myself and wondering am I even worthy of being here?

242
00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:22.320
Or is this a good idea? Or I'm racked with

243
00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:25.720
a bit of doubt, how can I demonstrate that I

244
00:13:25.759 --> 00:13:30.080
am safe hands for this project? Right? My manager or

245
00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:32.679
someone has thrown me a ball, how can I let

246
00:13:32.679 --> 00:13:35.600
them know I think I can catch it. And suddenly

247
00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:38.200
it's not about the optics and what I'm doing and

248
00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:41.639
how I'm sounding. It's like, oh, okay, I'm going to

249
00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:43.519
show that I'm listening. I'm going to show that I've

250
00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:46.120
got an idea. I'm going to show that they shouldn't worry,

251
00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:48.799
because as a manager, that is what you're looking You're

252
00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:51.639
throwing things at people and hoping that they can catch

253
00:13:51.679 --> 00:13:55.679
them and hoping they don't drop them. Right, that's sort

254
00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:59.159
of at its very basic essence, and so I find

255
00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:00.919
when I try to give people, I mean there's a

256
00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:03.039
number of frames I talk through, but one of them

257
00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:05.639
is safe hands, and I think it's very actionable and

258
00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:09.200
very immediate, like oh okay, I can channel to your

259
00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:15.039
point that calm, assuredness and actually immediately start acting on

260
00:14:15.080 --> 00:14:19.320
something tangible and visible, which I think helps people or

261
00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:22.080
gets them out of that sort of state of paralysis,

262
00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:25.639
which is you know, oh what am I doing, and

263
00:14:25.720 --> 00:14:28.279
more into like okay, well what am I doing? Like

264
00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:29.879
let's look at the doing of it.

265
00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:33.600
I love that even just the change in the inflection

266
00:14:34.120 --> 00:14:38.080
just might change that whole sentence. You're the communication expert

267
00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:42.120
is very clear, and I think some of these reframes

268
00:14:42.159 --> 00:14:46.600
are really important too, and just shifting how you're thinking

269
00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:49.039
about something can just make all the difference. One of

270
00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:52.240
the you say in the book, and it's obviously very obvious,

271
00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:56.039
but you know, people pleasing is such a just a

272
00:14:56.080 --> 00:15:01.000
classic demonstration of prioritizing likability, you know, wanting people to

273
00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:03.360
like you, and when you even people pleasing, if you

274
00:15:03.399 --> 00:15:06.360
reframe that. I don't know what whether this is relevant

275
00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:07.679
to what we're talking about, but I was talking to

276
00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:10.200
somebody just the other day about it's actually being really

277
00:15:10.279 --> 00:15:13.399
an authentic like you're actually making decisions based on what

278
00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:15.000
you think they want. You haven't even bothered to ask

279
00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:16.519
them what they want, by the way, you don't even

280
00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:18.960
know that that's what they want, and you're kind of

281
00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:21.960
manipulating yourself in order to get an outcome from them.

282
00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:23.639
Like that's kind of shady if you think about it,

283
00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:27.279
like it's not actually a kind, you know, selfless thing

284
00:15:27.559 --> 00:15:30.399
to do, and that sometimes things like that just make

285
00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:34.840
light bulbs go off in people's minds and you with

286
00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:37.480
the imposing syndrome, you know, instead of imposter syndrome. It's

287
00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:41.240
just a different way of thinking about something that can

288
00:15:41.399 --> 00:15:44.240
have lead to a much different outcome in terms of

289
00:15:44.279 --> 00:15:47.519
how you feel and then how you behave I completely.

290
00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:50.080
Agree with you on the inauthenticity part of a people

291
00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:52.679
pleasing I think it sounds like a nice thing we

292
00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:54.960
want to please people, like right, that no one wants

293
00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:59.000
to necessarily go and displease people. But it's actually if

294
00:15:59.039 --> 00:16:01.159
you think about it, if you're our manager and you

295
00:16:01.240 --> 00:16:02.879
have someone say, oh, sure I can get it to

296
00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:05.320
you by Friday, like yes, yes, I'll do it, and

297
00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:11.519
then they don't. Right, that's profoundly disappointing and displeasing. Right.

298
00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:14.519
I would much rather an honest assessment like, you know what,

299
00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:17.000
I've got seven other things on my plate, Which do

300
00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:19.360
you want me to prioritize or I'm not sure I'm

301
00:16:19.399 --> 00:16:20.679
going to get but to get it by Friday, but

302
00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:23.320
I can do it by Monday. Like being honest and

303
00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:27.320
actually having that pause and working out what you can

304
00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:32.240
commit to honestly and transparently, to me is a much

305
00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:36.320
more likable quality and certainly a more sustainable one when

306
00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:38.720
you're working with a long term relationship with someone, right,

307
00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:43.200
because that's how you build trust. If you're displeasing, you know,

308
00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:45.480
effectively by saying sure or sure I can do it,

309
00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:48.600
I can do it and then producing subpar work or

310
00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:51.360
not producing the work at all, That to me, is

311
00:16:51.399 --> 00:16:54.480
going to erode trust quite quickly and build a narrative

312
00:16:54.600 --> 00:16:58.960
in that vein instead. So that's the cautionary tale I

313
00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:00.320
think of people.

314
00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:03.279
Pleasing one hundred percent and not to mention what that

315
00:17:03.399 --> 00:17:06.880
does to your own self confidence when you don't deliver,

316
00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:08.920
and how that makes you feel.

317
00:17:09.400 --> 00:17:11.799
Right, we're very good at self flagellating about it.

318
00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:15.000
Right. You mentioned about the safe hands, and when you

319
00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:17.400
were talking about that that in my mind, I was thinking,

320
00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:20.519
that's really getting somebody to focus on what can I do?

321
00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:24.799
And I think correct me if I'm wrong. Even people

322
00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:28.079
who are very confident in what they do, like I

323
00:17:28.119 --> 00:17:30.599
know I can do the job, they will often still

324
00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:34.640
struggle with confidence in terms of the interpersonal communication, like

325
00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:36.799
all those things you just said about how they come

326
00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:41.119
across or speaking up. So is that what you see

327
00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:44.519
and why is that the case? Do you think? Or

328
00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:46.480
what can they do about it? You answer that however

329
00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:46.799
you want.

330
00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:49.200
Yes, I do see it a lot, And I think

331
00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:52.480
the liberating thing is I see it from people whose

332
00:17:52.519 --> 00:17:56.319
resume is you would think they couldn't possibly think that way.

333
00:17:56.839 --> 00:18:00.640
These are vps or SVPs or C suite level folks

334
00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:03.480
who you know, you would look at their LinkedIn profiles

335
00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:05.759
and think wow, like they wouldn't have a minute of

336
00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:08.400
self doubt. And yet they're the same ones I'm working

337
00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:11.839
with who are expressing all of these similar ideas that

338
00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:14.720
you might hear from a new grad. And so the

339
00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:17.799
liberating side of that is that we're all in the

340
00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:20.279
same boat to some extent. The boat looks different, but

341
00:18:20.920 --> 00:18:25.039
we're all in it. But the other thing is it

342
00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:28.359
can be very paralyzing. So the frame that I use

343
00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:31.960
for them, maybe it's helpful if I give you an example. Yeah,

344
00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:34.680
the famely it means for them is what was I

345
00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:38.240
hired for? So the example is one of the women

346
00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:42.920
I coach is a senior VP of business development, so

347
00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:46.359
that her job is very external. She's focused on getting

348
00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:49.359
new business for the company, and she has a background

349
00:18:49.400 --> 00:18:52.519
in computer science. She works in a tech company and

350
00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:56.400
she's often in a room full of engineers. And she

351
00:18:56.480 --> 00:18:59.759
said to me, Kate, it's awful because I'm always the

352
00:18:59.839 --> 00:19:03.640
lead technical person in this room. And I said, well,

353
00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:06.960
of course you are. You know you're You're not hired

354
00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:08.960
to be the most technical person in the room. You're

355
00:19:09.079 --> 00:19:12.160
literally hired to be doing something very different. And she said, oh,

356
00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:14.440
I always feel difficult because I get these very very

357
00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:17.480
technical questions and I can't answer them, and I'm like,

358
00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:20.359
but again, what were you hired for? You were you

359
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:23.200
were hired to do this thing? So oftentimes I think

360
00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:25.680
the mistake and I do think this might be a

361
00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:27.880
bit gendered. I see this more in women than men.

362
00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:31.480
We think, well, we have to know everything, right, We

363
00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:33.680
have to be the most technical and the most business

364
00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:37.240
minded and you know this and that, and actually she

365
00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:42.119
only needs to fully, you know, excel in her lane.

366
00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:45.000
And as for the other stuff, she's probably one a

367
00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:47.480
lot more technical than I think she would admit. But

368
00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:49.960
two she can redirect that and say, look, that's a

369
00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:52.599
great question for the VP of NGE, right, like this

370
00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:56.240
is that's an engineering question. From a business development perspective,

371
00:19:56.400 --> 00:19:58.799
I would say A, B and C. Right, so you

372
00:19:58.839 --> 00:20:02.480
can reground in your own area of expertise. But I

373
00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:05.039
think that holds a lot of people back. Oh, I

374
00:20:05.079 --> 00:20:07.480
better not say something because I don't know enough. And

375
00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:10.279
that's where we get those minimizers. Oh, I'm not the expert,

376
00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:12.640
bar Or, You've probably already thought of this, bart Or,

377
00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:15.880
I'm not an engineer, but that's we get it. You're not.

378
00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:18.319
You don't need to put that in the on lights

379
00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:20.200
for us. All you need to do is, you know,

380
00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:23.240
own your own lane of excellence. And I think that

381
00:20:23.359 --> 00:20:26.440
sort of framing has been a real I've noticed a

382
00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:30.279
real shift in her over time that that confidence is,

383
00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:33.559
Oh wait, I don't have to know everything for everyone,

384
00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:37.440
and I can just excel in what I'm doing and

385
00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:39.680
in fact, she's very brilliant at what she does do.

386
00:20:40.279 --> 00:20:42.400
So I don't know if that helps illustrate for people,

387
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:44.960
but I think there's the what was I hired for?

388
00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:48.400
Lens can be a really nice one to remember. Few

389
00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:51.319
of us are hired to know every single thing about everything.

390
00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:55.960
Even CEOs trust their advisors, right, they trust their c

391
00:20:56.119 --> 00:20:58.720
suite to say what's going on in you know, their

392
00:20:58.720 --> 00:20:59.640
respective areas.

393
00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:04.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And when people get into their heads,

394
00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:06.680
even if it's incorrect, but when they get this idea

395
00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:08.160
that they need to know everything, or they get this

396
00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:09.680
idea that they're going to be put on the spot,

397
00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:13.079
they can't answer the question from my perspective, from a

398
00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:16.680
psychologist perspective, and the work that I do like that

399
00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:19.160
just activates the whole nervous system and puts them into

400
00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:22.079
this like fight or flight freeze kind of during the

401
00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:26.039
headlights state where they're not going to function at their best.

402
00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:29.359
So it's so important not just to have and you

403
00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:32.079
and I can talk about some of those practical skills

404
00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:35.559
that they that they can do, but first and foremost,

405
00:21:35.559 --> 00:21:38.000
they've got to calm themselves down. And so if that

406
00:21:38.119 --> 00:21:40.640
shift to I don't have to know everything if that

407
00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:44.160
calms down that level of anxiety a little bit, then

408
00:21:44.279 --> 00:21:46.160
anything that they say is going to be said with

409
00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:50.799
more calm, you know, just just more of that sort

410
00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:52.799
of calm presence that we're talking about.

411
00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:56.559
And you talk about confidence and sort of I guess

412
00:21:56.599 --> 00:22:02.720
seniority calm is encoded with that. The second somebody is

413
00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:04.559
all frazzled and oh I'm not really sure and which

414
00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:08.279
page was it? And you know, flustered. We don't think

415
00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:11.440
that that sea level behavior, rightly or wrongly. Right, we

416
00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:13.759
just have a sense of that. But we think about

417
00:22:13.799 --> 00:22:18.119
those sea suite people. They speak deliberately, slowly, they are unruffled,

418
00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:21.880
they're not surprised, right, they take things in their stride.

419
00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:25.000
They are demonstrating safe hands. And in fact, when you

420
00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:27.480
have a C suite leader who is not doing that,

421
00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:32.279
it's really discompopulating and unsettling for the company, right because

422
00:22:32.279 --> 00:22:37.599
they feel disregulated by anxiety coming from on top. So

423
00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:41.440
calm is the best way to get to confidence and

424
00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:45.039
also to look more senior than you are. It's a

425
00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:47.720
it's a it's a light bulb moment. I think for

426
00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:50.079
a lot of people who are like, oh, is that

427
00:22:50.119 --> 00:22:53.839
all That's actually what they mean by executive presence, right,

428
00:22:53.960 --> 00:22:57.359
is actually it's not wearing different clothes or using different vocabulary.

429
00:22:57.359 --> 00:22:59.440
It's often just taking things in your stride.

430
00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:02.799
That's so interesting and that you've just shortcuted. I was

431
00:23:02.920 --> 00:23:05.160
going to ask you that very question, because you know,

432
00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:09.279
we use these executive presences. One you said before, if

433
00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:12.519
you ask somebody to be more confident, or if somebody

434
00:23:12.519 --> 00:23:15.000
says I just need to be more confident, number one,

435
00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:18.640
that's a felt experience. And even when I ask people

436
00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:20.400
if you were more confident, what would you be doing

437
00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:23.759
a lot of people even struggle to articulate it. They

438
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:27.039
just sort of feel like they know when they get there,

439
00:23:27.079 --> 00:23:30.880
almost And in the workplace, if you are told that,

440
00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:33.319
like in a performance review, you just need to be

441
00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:36.079
more confident. Like that's so you point this out in

442
00:23:36.119 --> 00:23:39.960
your book, it's so unhelpful because it's so meaningless. What

443
00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:42.799
do you suggest that you are to share with somebody

444
00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:45.519
else or how an individual how do they make that

445
00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:48.240
into something that's more tangible and actionable.

446
00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:52.440
I think, yeah, you're exactly right. Be more confident is

447
00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:55.920
a little bit like saying be healthier. It sounds like

448
00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:57.720
it's a good thing, and we sort of know what

449
00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:00.119
that might look like, but for each of us it's

450
00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:02.279
going to be a really different path to how to

451
00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:05.359
do it and what it actually looks like. So that's

452
00:24:05.640 --> 00:24:08.519
very normal and natural. They shouldn't. This is not a

453
00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:11.799
listical exercise, you know, it's not do these three things

454
00:24:11.799 --> 00:24:14.720
and everything will be fine. So that's actually should be liberating,

455
00:24:14.759 --> 00:24:18.200
not depressing. In my mind, the best way I can

456
00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:21.920
think about it is that, because it's so inactionable, and

457
00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:25.240
because it's this sort of amorphous thing, the best way

458
00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:28.200
to think about it is how can I be as

459
00:24:28.359 --> 00:24:31.920
connected and as present in all of my interactions as

460
00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:35.680
I can be? So I am I? Am I listening?

461
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:39.200
Am I being of service here? Am I being helpful?

462
00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:41.960
Am I sharing an idea when it comes to me?

463
00:24:42.039 --> 00:24:45.880
Am I responding when the meeting or the mood changes?

464
00:24:46.039 --> 00:24:46.200
Right?

465
00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:50.000
Can I be nimble? These are excellent qualities that I

466
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:54.359
think are really overlooked, and instead we get so outside

467
00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:57.240
of our head thinking. Is this confident? Am I sitting confidently?

468
00:24:57.680 --> 00:24:59.519
You know? Does my hair look confident in this?

469
00:24:59.640 --> 00:24:59.839
You know?

470
00:25:00.359 --> 00:25:02.319
Sort of? And I'm being a bit facetious, but it's

471
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:05.240
we have this sort of feeling about it when we

472
00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:09.200
can stop doing that and just get forget the externality

473
00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:13.279
of it and think internally, how am I making this work?

474
00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:16.200
I think it will really challenge people, or I encourage

475
00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:19.759
people to experiment with it, because you'll find that I

476
00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:23.119
imagine you will find in my experience, are such a

477
00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:26.759
better and more robust conversation, and that other person will

478
00:25:26.839 --> 00:25:31.079
leave with a higher sense of trust in you, which,

479
00:25:31.480 --> 00:25:34.200
of course, you know, in the cycle of all things,

480
00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:37.599
becomes confidence. Right, they have confidence in you, you start

481
00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:41.680
feeling confidence in yourself becomes quite a virtuous or a

482
00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:46.319
generative cycle rather than a like ugh. And even if

483
00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:49.359
you don't have the right answer, that's fine. If you're

484
00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:52.240
unruffled and calm and regulated in those moments, you can say,

485
00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:54.119
you know what, that's a really great question. I'm going

486
00:25:54.200 --> 00:25:56.519
to take some time and dig into it, and I'll

487
00:25:56.559 --> 00:25:59.759
shoot you a note this afternoon, right like it's I'm

488
00:25:59.799 --> 00:26:03.200
not afraid I will look after it is kind of

489
00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:05.880
where we're headed for when we are that connected.

490
00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:10.319
Yeah, I love that. That needs to be on a

491
00:26:10.599 --> 00:26:12.440
post it note. Everybody needs that on a post it

492
00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:15.319
note on their desk right now? How can I be

493
00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:18.960
more connected and present and of service how do I

494
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:22.680
how do I contribute instead of how can I perform?

495
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:24.279
So that those people outside of me, what are they

496
00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:25.599
thinking of me? How are they judging me?

497
00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:29.839
All of that exactly? Yeah, well that's the only thing

498
00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:33.599
we can control, right, you know, I can only leave

499
00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:36.400
a meeting knowing I've done all of those things, and

500
00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:38.880
whatever anyone else thinks of me is up to them.

501
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:42.319
So there's a beautiful phrase one of my American the

502
00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:44.279
one of the women I coach, says. She says, you

503
00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:46.319
can be the juiciest peach in the bowl, but some

504
00:26:46.359 --> 00:26:47.759
people just don't like peaches.

505
00:26:48.359 --> 00:26:49.000
It's true too.

506
00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:53.960
But you can control for your connectedness and present So

507
00:26:54.039 --> 00:26:57.400
I find that really a really nice frame of mind

508
00:26:57.480 --> 00:26:59.000
to be in when I'm in it in one of

509
00:26:59.000 --> 00:26:59.880
those situations.

510
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:08.359
Yeah, you mentioned before about the likability and authority do

511
00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:13.319
not have to be mutually exclusive. You've got this great

512
00:27:13.480 --> 00:27:18.079
exercise in the book where you encourage people to have

513
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:21.200
a list of what are typically feminine qualities, a list

514
00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:24.039
of what we would typically consider to be masculine, and

515
00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:27.319
find a way to blend them. Can you just talk

516
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:29.480
a little bit about that and the impact that that

517
00:27:29.559 --> 00:27:34.000
exercise has on people, Like when you ask people to do.

518
00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:37.000
That, Oh, I'd love to. So one of the things

519
00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:40.920
I think is tricky for some women communicators is that

520
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:44.319
we have a little bit of a preconceived notion of

521
00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:48.279
what words apply to us. So even things like power,

522
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:50.839
some of the women I coach, who I would think

523
00:27:50.839 --> 00:27:53.599
are very powerful, very senior, would say, oh no, but

524
00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:56.759
I don't identify with being powerful at all, right, Or

525
00:27:56.839 --> 00:27:59.720
I don't identify with being ambitious, or like I couldn't

526
00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:00.920
say that I was ambitious.

527
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:01.039
Right.

528
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:05.160
They're sort of a socially acceptable or unacceptable tinged some

529
00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:08.160
of those types of words, and those words that tend

530
00:28:08.279 --> 00:28:12.480
to be more masculine coded. Right, Even a word like negotiation.

531
00:28:13.240 --> 00:28:16.119
If you google image search for that, it's usually men

532
00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:19.519
in suits shaking hands across a table. Right, there's this

533
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:22.559
sort of subconscious encoding we've done.

534
00:28:22.359 --> 00:28:24.680
Off those words as masculine.

535
00:28:24.119 --> 00:28:27.359
And so some of us feel not privy to those

536
00:28:27.400 --> 00:28:30.839
words or out on the outside of those words. So

537
00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:32.759
one of the exercises, as you say that I do,

538
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:36.000
is to say, is there a way that you can

539
00:28:36.119 --> 00:28:38.480
identify with some of these words? And it's not an

540
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:42.119
exhaustive list I give, but I give some examples and

541
00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:46.599
words that might be traditionally encoded as feminine. I don't

542
00:28:46.599 --> 00:28:48.960
mean that only women have them, but that we sort

543
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:53.720
of socially believe are feminine. So things like being empathetic, collaborative, communal,

544
00:28:54.160 --> 00:28:57.640
And it becomes this beautiful exercise where I've had some

545
00:28:57.759 --> 00:29:01.759
gorgeous in workshops and when I work with people examples.

546
00:29:01.759 --> 00:29:06.440
So one of them, someone says, I'm ambitiously communal, and

547
00:29:06.519 --> 00:29:08.079
I said, what do you mean by that? She said, well,

548
00:29:08.119 --> 00:29:11.559
I'm super ambitious. I want my team to go really hard,

549
00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:14.599
really fast, like hit all of our metrics, but I

550
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:17.480
want us to do it all together. And that's how

551
00:29:17.480 --> 00:29:20.039
she thinks about her leadership style. But she said, I'd

552
00:29:20.039 --> 00:29:23.240
never given voice to that, or I'd never felt like

553
00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:26.240
I could own the word ambitious because it felt like

554
00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:28.960
I was sort of sharp, elbowed or competitive or out

555
00:29:28.960 --> 00:29:31.559
for myself. And she said, I don't really feel like that.

556
00:29:31.640 --> 00:29:34.839
I really do generally genuinely feel like I'm lifting the team.

557
00:29:35.200 --> 00:29:37.240
I gave the presentation at one point and I had

558
00:29:37.240 --> 00:29:38.920
someone come up to me afterwards and said, I think

559
00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:41.640
you are rationally warm, and.

560
00:29:42.119 --> 00:29:43.759
I was like, I can live with that.

561
00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:48.319
That was very kind, so there's an interesting, I think

562
00:29:48.519 --> 00:29:52.039
mix where we can blend these and I guess what

563
00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:55.920
I'm saying is clearly two words don't necessarily encompass us all,

564
00:29:56.440 --> 00:29:59.599
but it's a little way to poke at that binary

565
00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:03.319
or die ectomy by bringing together things that might feel

566
00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:06.839
dissonant a little bit like the title powerfully likable. You

567
00:30:06.839 --> 00:30:11.079
don't exactly think that they could coexist comfortably, But actually,

568
00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:13.720
I think there's a lot more wiggle room that than

569
00:30:13.759 --> 00:30:16.279
we give it credit for. And one of the things

570
00:30:16.359 --> 00:30:19.759
I'm really excited about is when people start borrowing and

571
00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:24.240
getting rid of that rigidity, we get these really generative

572
00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:28.519
and interesting combinations that feel like I see a lot

573
00:30:28.519 --> 00:30:31.799
of relief in people. I see shoulders come down like, oh,

574
00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:34.279
that does speak to who I am and who I

575
00:30:34.359 --> 00:30:36.480
might feel like I am as a leader, And I

576
00:30:36.519 --> 00:30:38.240
say leader, I don't care if you lead a team

577
00:30:38.319 --> 00:30:41.519
or not, just somebody who's showing up every day. To

578
00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:44.799
give yourself that vocabulary is a lovely frame of mind

579
00:30:44.839 --> 00:30:47.160
to then approach all of your communication from.

580
00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:50.279
It almost feels like it's a back door way in

581
00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:54.319
for women to feel like they can access or have

582
00:30:54.359 --> 00:30:56.960
the right to some of those qualities. I guess, but

583
00:30:57.279 --> 00:30:59.519
it would be nice if going forward that they become

584
00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:02.960
much less like the definitions change, or that we can

585
00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:05.759
see them as as more inclusive and not this or that.

586
00:31:06.319 --> 00:31:07.960
As you were talking, I was thinking of your example

587
00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:10.079
of like all of the series and the Alexis they're

588
00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:13.160
all female voices because they're assistance. Like it's when you

589
00:31:13.359 --> 00:31:15.400
start to see things like that, I mean, it can

590
00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:17.680
really make you mad, kind of like, yes, just the

591
00:31:17.720 --> 00:31:20.039
way we are so programmed.

592
00:31:19.720 --> 00:31:22.559
Women don't make asks, they answer them, right, that's the

593
00:31:22.599 --> 00:31:26.200
cultural coding, and so AI assistants work that in that

594
00:31:26.279 --> 00:31:30.119
sort of secretarial you know, nineteen fifty secretarial mode, right,

595
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:33.880
that we fix problems we don't make them. We answer things,

596
00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:38.079
we don't ask them. And there's no surprise to me

597
00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:41.680
that we subconsciously encode that. And it's really related to

598
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:44.519
that imposing syndrome. Right, I better not be the one

599
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:48.240
who's making the ask or being the problem, or I

600
00:31:48.359 --> 00:31:52.079
instead must have the solution. I talk a little bit

601
00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:55.680
in the book my hypothesis. I mean, there's many reasons

602
00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:58.359
and many cultural moments that I think have led us

603
00:31:58.359 --> 00:32:01.079
to that. But one of my pothesies is also we

604
00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:04.640
grow up around many of us grow up around women

605
00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:08.519
who are like have the nail file, the drink of water,

606
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:11.839
the band aid, the packet of tissues. The we answer

607
00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:14.480
the problem right, this is this is as as there's

608
00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:17.759
sort of a maternal encodedness to some of this as well,

609
00:32:18.200 --> 00:32:20.759
and so it doesn't it's not a long boat to draw.

610
00:32:20.839 --> 00:32:23.799
I think that when we enter a workplace context, we

611
00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:27.680
are sort of positioned, or feel like self position to

612
00:32:28.039 --> 00:32:31.400
be answering rather than asking yeah.

613
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:33.160
I read that part of the book and I was thinking, yeah,

614
00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:35.799
and that's the always the woman's got the handbag because

615
00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:38.759
she's carrying all the things, just carrying the band aid

616
00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:41.240
and the snack and the lip balm. And then and

617
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:45.440
then the man or the child says, I don't want

618
00:32:45.440 --> 00:32:47.440
to carry a bag, but can you put this in yours?

619
00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:52.519
Oh I've taken to having a bag that only fits

620
00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:53.759
my things now.

621
00:32:53.839 --> 00:33:01.000
Same, same, and they'll still try to rebellion habag. Do

622
00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:02.960
you know that My teenage daughter who's done that to

623
00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:05.680
me forever, like she's nineteen now, she actually said to

624
00:33:05.720 --> 00:33:07.400
me the other day, oh my god, mum. She was

625
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:08.920
out with a boyfriend and said he said he didn't

626
00:33:08.920 --> 00:33:10.640
want to take a bag, but could I carry his stuff?

627
00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:14.799
Oh my god. So she felt she experienced it. She

628
00:33:14.839 --> 00:33:16.079
was on the other side of that, and I said,

629
00:33:16.119 --> 00:33:17.160
mmmmm mu.

630
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:20.559
Sic feminism one oh one.

631
00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:23.440
You're right though, you're right like we I mean, there's

632
00:33:23.480 --> 00:33:25.480
so much conditioning. I didn't feel like we even needed

633
00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:28.160
to go into it because it's just so clear all

634
00:33:28.200 --> 00:33:33.279
of that socialle gendered expectations of women, all the jobs

635
00:33:33.319 --> 00:33:36.599
that are usually feminine paid the least, all of that

636
00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:39.359
kind of stuff. But clearly then that has this flow

637
00:33:39.400 --> 00:33:42.279
and effect when you get into workplaces and women start

638
00:33:42.359 --> 00:33:45.599
to move up or want to move up, and all

639
00:33:45.640 --> 00:33:49.680
of this conditioning and expectation can feel very can very

640
00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:52.839
much hold people back and not just undermine their own confidence,

641
00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:55.039
but how other people interact with them in the workplace

642
00:33:55.119 --> 00:33:59.000
as well, which leads me to women often get talked over,

643
00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:03.000
they get into erupted, they get ideas stolen from them.

644
00:34:03.160 --> 00:34:07.799
That is all terrible, and it happens. How do you

645
00:34:07.839 --> 00:34:12.079
suggest women in those very real situations where they've just

646
00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:15.000
been they've spoken up, and they've been interrupted. Do you

647
00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:18.679
have advice about how women best handle situations like that

648
00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:20.280
when they're confronted with.

649
00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:23.400
It It's a great question, and I'm glad we're touching

650
00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:25.840
on this as well, that there are both individual things

651
00:34:25.880 --> 00:34:28.880
you can do as a woman, but there are also bigger,

652
00:34:28.920 --> 00:34:32.639
systemic things that are happening outside of us. So, by

653
00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:35.679
all means, my philosophy and the book is really not

654
00:34:35.719 --> 00:34:38.519
coming at it like you know, you're broken, you're the problem.

655
00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:41.480
It's very much like we're all existing in the world,

656
00:34:41.639 --> 00:34:44.079
and what are the tools that we can bring and

657
00:34:44.119 --> 00:34:46.320
what are the things that a workplace can do. I

658
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:49.159
think there are some simple ones. And this isn't on

659
00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:53.000
the assumption that you're not in a hypertoxic environment that

660
00:34:53.079 --> 00:34:55.440
you need to leave right. This is on the assumption

661
00:34:55.599 --> 00:34:59.039
that it's hopefully an accident that those things were happening

662
00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:02.400
right or of a site, rather than a malicious or

663
00:35:02.679 --> 00:35:05.199
you know, really really toxic sort of situation where it's

664
00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:08.559
happening on purpose. One of them. There's a theory that's

665
00:35:08.599 --> 00:35:11.719
come out of the Obama White House which was called amplification,

666
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:14.840
which is where someone else in the room can say, actually,

667
00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:17.679
you know, she wasn't finished talking, so you can help

668
00:35:17.719 --> 00:35:21.920
amplify others, which actually helps in gender a culture of people.

669
00:35:21.960 --> 00:35:24.760
Maybe doing that for you as well. If it's happened

670
00:35:24.760 --> 00:35:27.639
for you, You've been talked over, for example, or an idea

671
00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:29.800
has been stolen and no one else is coming to

672
00:35:29.840 --> 00:35:32.800
your aid, which is I think happens most of the time.

673
00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:36.199
You can say something like that's really interesting, that was

674
00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:38.960
what I was talking about last week when we did this,

675
00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:42.400
and just keep going right, just keep flowing on. The argument,

676
00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:45.360
isn't I said it. It's just making a reference to

677
00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:48.159
it and moving on. So it's just like, I'm so

678
00:35:48.239 --> 00:35:50.119
glad we're putting this on the agenda. This is something

679
00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:53.039
I've been working on two weeks ago, or blah blah blah.

680
00:35:53.079 --> 00:35:55.559
So you're planning that seed that there is some sort

681
00:35:55.559 --> 00:35:58.440
of social ownership over it. It is difficult, and we

682
00:35:58.480 --> 00:36:01.239
don't want to make that the argument because it feels

683
00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:04.159
small and people can be put off by that, which

684
00:36:04.519 --> 00:36:07.079
is fair enough. But making the point and then moving

685
00:36:07.119 --> 00:36:09.360
on to something gives you a bit of momentum and

686
00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:11.519
also makes the point at the same time, So that

687
00:36:11.559 --> 00:36:12.920
can be one way to think about it.

688
00:36:13.320 --> 00:36:15.559
The point that you make though about other people pointing

689
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:18.679
it out, and you know, again that's not something that

690
00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:22.920
an individual necessarily has control of it. But wherever possible,

691
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:27.159
where workplaces an organizational culture is kind of on board

692
00:36:27.159 --> 00:36:30.280
with this and people are willing to speak up or

693
00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:33.960
to point out or highlight that that's what she said.

694
00:36:34.199 --> 00:36:36.440
Then all of that is obviously going to be helpful

695
00:36:36.440 --> 00:36:39.639
and also create an environment where people feel back to

696
00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:42.639
that confidence thing. People feel safer, yes, you know, people

697
00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:43.920
feel more trust.

698
00:36:43.719 --> 00:36:47.559
Yes, absolutely. And to your point earlier about confidence, you

699
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:52.039
look very confident if you can give someone else a compliment, right, yeah,

700
00:36:52.360 --> 00:36:55.119
So if you were just regulated and calm and you

701
00:36:55.159 --> 00:36:57.840
were like Cass, that was such an amazing job you did,

702
00:36:58.199 --> 00:37:01.239
or everybody cast did an amazing job when we went

703
00:37:01.239 --> 00:37:03.880
to that thing last week. Right, If you're just calling

704
00:37:03.880 --> 00:37:06.719
that out, it's like, I am not afraid. I am

705
00:37:06.840 --> 00:37:09.400
not worried anyone's coming from my job. It can be

706
00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:13.320
a really it can be very encoded as a senior

707
00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:15.719
move to make you can be the most junior person

708
00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:18.400
in the room. But calling out a compliment like that

709
00:37:18.639 --> 00:37:23.280
is a really lovely way to say I'm unafraid, right, Yeah.

710
00:37:23.719 --> 00:37:26.199
People who are worried about their job or position would

711
00:37:26.280 --> 00:37:26.800
not do that.

712
00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:30.360
I love that and it's so interesting. I've had a

713
00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:33.440
few conversations recently, Kate and I just actually published a

714
00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:36.800
podcast with Jennifer Moss, who is a workplace well being

715
00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:41.280
strategist and she talks about happiness at work, and she

716
00:37:41.760 --> 00:37:43.400
raised this idea, and it was in my mind as

717
00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:46.280
I was reading your book about threading positive gossip, like

718
00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:50.239
speaking what you're saying basically, but like talking nicely about

719
00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:53.360
people behind their back even if they're not there, which

720
00:37:53.639 --> 00:37:55.960
she was talking about it in terms of creating this

721
00:37:56.119 --> 00:37:59.960
culture of psychological safety and trust, and that people can't

722
00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:03.000
assume if everybody gets talked about nicely behind the bag,

723
00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:04.639
you're probably saying nice things about me too, So that

724
00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:07.280
makes me feel good. Yes, but your take on that

725
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:10.519
it's what you've just said about a similar thing that

726
00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:13.559
it also shows you like it also presents you as

727
00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:16.360
being confident, Like that's a very nice side effect, like

728
00:38:16.400 --> 00:38:19.199
a nice bonus. I'm doing that same behavior bonus.

729
00:38:19.320 --> 00:38:21.559
It has to be a genuine compliment, right, like people

730
00:38:21.559 --> 00:38:25.079
can It's not right, but yes, it's doing two lovely

731
00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:29.440
things at once. Right, It's good, Calma, you're happily giving

732
00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:33.559
cutos or credit to someone where it's due, and by extension,

733
00:38:33.559 --> 00:38:35.400
as you say that, the side effect is that your

734
00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:39.719
positioning yourself is pretty confident. It's a very very clever,

735
00:38:39.880 --> 00:38:42.119
I think, and strategic thing to do. It's also just

736
00:38:42.119 --> 00:38:44.400
a really nice thing to do, of course.

737
00:38:44.519 --> 00:38:46.559
Yeah, yeah, and that's what we want more of, right

738
00:38:46.760 --> 00:38:50.280
kindness God, instead of all of this competition and feeling

739
00:38:50.280 --> 00:38:54.400
afraid all of the time. Okay, you're the communication expert.

740
00:38:54.519 --> 00:38:57.519
And I was listening to again I don't remember where,

741
00:38:57.599 --> 00:38:59.719
a podcast or something a little while ago, on the

742
00:38:59.719 --> 00:39:02.960
top of communication at work, and I heard this woman

743
00:39:03.039 --> 00:39:06.679
say something along the lines of that when men communicate,

744
00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:10.239
if they're presenting a point at work, they typically focus

745
00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:15.360
on content, whereas women typically, for whatever reason, they often

746
00:39:15.559 --> 00:39:19.039
are all about context. And so therefore, when presenting a

747
00:39:19.079 --> 00:39:21.599
point a woman, I stuck with me because I could

748
00:39:21.599 --> 00:39:23.159
relate to it. I thought, it sounds like me, a

749
00:39:23.199 --> 00:39:26.360
woman will need to give you all the backstory and

750
00:39:26.440 --> 00:39:29.719
the context before getting to the point, which is the

751
00:39:29.719 --> 00:39:31.199
thing they want you to do or the decision that

752
00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:33.119
they want you to make or where they think we

753
00:39:33.159 --> 00:39:36.000
should go next, and that that can often like people

754
00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:39.199
tune out, they haven't got time, it's a waffle blah blah.

755
00:39:39.239 --> 00:39:40.920
And she was sort of suggesting that women need to

756
00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:44.800
retrain themselves to lead with content. Is that your experience?

757
00:39:44.920 --> 00:39:47.920
Is that a thing? And how do you suggest that

758
00:39:47.960 --> 00:39:50.719
women take that on board when they're considering how they

759
00:39:50.760 --> 00:39:53.280
communicate at work if they want to be perceived as

760
00:39:53.280 --> 00:39:54.840
being more authoritative.

761
00:39:55.239 --> 00:39:57.639
It's a great question. Yes, I see it a lot.

762
00:39:57.920 --> 00:40:02.239
The metaphor I often use is that I think women,

763
00:40:02.599 --> 00:40:04.719
you know those Where's Wally books where you've got to

764
00:40:04.760 --> 00:40:08.880
find Wally amongst you know this crazy landscape, Women like

765
00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:13.639
to explain that whole double page right and then tell

766
00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:17.159
you where Wally is, and men usually start with here's

767
00:40:17.199 --> 00:40:23.000
Wally right, and we say men, I would probably layer

768
00:40:23.079 --> 00:40:26.920
that with more senior leaders tend to start with there's

769
00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:30.639
Wally because we don't have time for all that context,

770
00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:33.000
And if they want the context, they tend to double

771
00:40:33.039 --> 00:40:35.960
click on it. And some people, depending on their communication

772
00:40:36.119 --> 00:40:39.519
style and preferences, will get frustrated with like, why are

773
00:40:39.559 --> 00:40:42.320
you telling me the whole landscape when I just want

774
00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:43.280
to know where he is?

775
00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:43.760
Right?

776
00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:47.920
Just to continue the metaphor, so thinking about what is

777
00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:51.039
the thing that I am identifying right? What is the

778
00:40:51.079 --> 00:40:53.719
win here or what is the issue at hand? When

779
00:40:53.719 --> 00:40:56.679
I worked at Google, they used to have shorthand. I'm

780
00:40:56.679 --> 00:40:58.679
sure lots of companies had this, but it was the

781
00:40:58.800 --> 00:41:02.920
TLDR the too long didn't read what's the TLDR? If

782
00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:05.800
I only had one sentence to describe this, So it

783
00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:08.719
can be as simple as starting off your maybe it's

784
00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:11.559
your meeting update or your presentation. I'm going to walk

785
00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:15.239
through the three options that we have that we're looking

786
00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:19.199
for a new vendor, right, So that's my headline. The

787
00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:22.000
output of this is that by the end of the meeting,

788
00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:24.320
I'd like to have clarity on which one we're going

789
00:41:24.360 --> 00:41:27.559
to choose. Something like that, and then proceeding to walk

790
00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:31.559
through the three or even better, I've decided on a vendor.

791
00:41:33.159 --> 00:41:36.079
This meeting is to get approval of whatever. And someone

792
00:41:36.079 --> 00:41:38.920
else says, did you have other vendors? Yes, I'm happy

793
00:41:38.920 --> 00:41:42.239
to go into those, but just being able to take

794
00:41:42.280 --> 00:41:45.719
a position and then sign posting that for others. Again,

795
00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:49.360
people think it's safe hands she's done her homework, But

796
00:41:49.400 --> 00:41:52.159
we don't always have to show every piece of knowledge

797
00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:56.360
we have about said product or project. We can reliably

798
00:41:56.480 --> 00:41:59.760
know we've done that work and we're making a decision accordingly.

799
00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:02.880
I think that's so helpful when I felt really seen.

800
00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:05.519
When I heard that woman say that, I thought, oh yeah,

801
00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:09.199
my husband feels that every day. And I notice even

802
00:42:09.239 --> 00:42:11.280
in podcast interviews, like I almost like to have to

803
00:42:11.320 --> 00:42:13.679
tell the person probably doing it now, I have to

804
00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:15.559
tell all the backstory about how I came to this

805
00:42:15.639 --> 00:42:17.480
question before I actually asked the question, because I'm a

806
00:42:17.480 --> 00:42:20.159
psychologist's not a journalist too, let's face it. But you know,

807
00:42:20.280 --> 00:42:22.079
like I thought, oh, yeah, that's what I'm doing. I

808
00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:24.440
kind of feel like I have to give the backstory

809
00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:26.119
before I get to the actual point when I just

810
00:42:26.159 --> 00:42:28.440
want to know what's the bloody question here? Or my

811
00:42:28.519 --> 00:42:31.719
husband just wants to know words, what's the point of this?

812
00:42:31.800 --> 00:42:32.480
What are you telling me?

813
00:42:33.519 --> 00:42:36.039
And it's not a bad or a good thing. It's

814
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:39.519
like that you'll meet contextual thinkers and you'll meet you know,

815
00:42:39.639 --> 00:42:42.960
content thinkers if we can think about them as those insertions,

816
00:42:43.360 --> 00:42:46.360
so neither of them is wrong and both have their purpose.

817
00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:48.440
Like there's going to be times where people do want

818
00:42:48.440 --> 00:42:50.679
that double click, like, wait, tell me about the ten

819
00:42:50.760 --> 00:42:53.679
vendors that you've spoken with to get to this one vendor, right,

820
00:42:53.719 --> 00:42:56.039
like that that could be a very legitimate thing. So

821
00:42:56.079 --> 00:42:57.880
I don't want people to feel like, oh my gosh,

822
00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:01.079
I'm doing the wrong thing here. But it really understanding

823
00:43:01.119 --> 00:43:03.280
as always, who's our audience and what do they need

824
00:43:03.320 --> 00:43:06.559
from us? And if they're not a contextual person, or

825
00:43:06.559 --> 00:43:09.760
if you've noticed they tend to err on that headline,

826
00:43:10.039 --> 00:43:13.840
decision outcome kind of framework, it might be helpful to

827
00:43:13.960 --> 00:43:17.159
recast what you're doing in a way that they understand.

828
00:43:17.199 --> 00:43:19.920
So you're sort of code switching or translating a little

829
00:43:19.960 --> 00:43:22.920
bit in order to be more effective with that person.

830
00:43:23.079 --> 00:43:26.480
So to me, that's not in authenticity. It's just taking

831
00:43:26.519 --> 00:43:28.639
what you did say and sort of recasting it or

832
00:43:28.639 --> 00:43:29.840
re ordering it if you like.

833
00:43:30.280 --> 00:43:32.119
Yeah, one other thing I wanted to pick up on

834
00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:35.920
you talked about needing to know everything you talk about

835
00:43:36.039 --> 00:43:39.840
in the book. When people in confidence, they will often

836
00:43:40.559 --> 00:43:44.519
over prepare. And we see this with the people who

837
00:43:44.559 --> 00:43:48.239
experience self doubt, the perfectionism, the needing to be prepared

838
00:43:48.239 --> 00:43:51.800
for every possible outcome. Why is it better that we

839
00:43:52.039 --> 00:43:56.840
don't overprepare? How can over preparing actually be doing ourselves

840
00:43:56.880 --> 00:43:57.519
a disservice?

841
00:43:58.159 --> 00:44:00.760
Great question, So at the outset, I think it's important

842
00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:05.400
to say preparation is a good thing. It's the over preparation,

843
00:44:05.599 --> 00:44:08.119
which I'm really I really want to push on. So

844
00:44:08.519 --> 00:44:12.000
preparing is great, preparing, Knowing who you're speaking to, understanding

845
00:44:12.079 --> 00:44:15.599
the background, doing your homework all really important. What I'm

846
00:44:15.639 --> 00:44:18.320
talking about is I meet a lot of senior leaders

847
00:44:18.360 --> 00:44:21.800
who say I used to do things like practice going

848
00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:25.840
through a presentation ten plus times, and I am now

849
00:44:25.880 --> 00:44:29.079
in a position where it's unsustainable. I can't do that

850
00:44:29.119 --> 00:44:31.960
for every meeting I'm doing right, or I can't do

851
00:44:32.079 --> 00:44:34.000
it to the level that I thought that I was

852
00:44:34.719 --> 00:44:38.440
successful at. And what that means is that you've gotten

853
00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:42.119
yourself into this awkward dead end where you've prepared, you know,

854
00:44:42.239 --> 00:44:44.960
ten x maybe more than you needed to or five

855
00:44:45.159 --> 00:44:48.239
x more, and it's not something you can continue to do.

856
00:44:48.800 --> 00:44:52.679
So starting off earlier with a lighter preparation is something

857
00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:55.719
I'm very big on. Why is it bad? Well, one,

858
00:44:55.880 --> 00:44:58.440
it takes a lot of time, so when we're trying

859
00:44:58.440 --> 00:45:00.880
to think about being efficient and affecting with our work

860
00:45:00.920 --> 00:45:04.440
and our time over preparing really bogs us down and

861
00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:08.079
slows us down. But more importantly even than that, is

862
00:45:08.119 --> 00:45:10.840
that I think it can take you out of being

863
00:45:10.880 --> 00:45:15.440
that present and connected person. If you've had this preconceived,

864
00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:18.599
prepared notion of here's my script, I'm going to stick

865
00:45:18.639 --> 00:45:21.960
to it perfectly. What if they veer away, What if

866
00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:24.360
you're required to be a little bit nimble, What if

867
00:45:24.360 --> 00:45:28.760
the problem changes as you're speaking. Suddenly you've anchored yourself

868
00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:31.239
to this script or these ideas, and it can be

869
00:45:31.280 --> 00:45:34.480
really hard or challenging for folks to drop them and

870
00:45:34.639 --> 00:45:38.880
move accordingly. And so I think it can really mire

871
00:45:39.079 --> 00:45:43.840
us in either unhelpful points in that conversation, or it

872
00:45:43.880 --> 00:45:46.559
can make us just lose our focus and be less

873
00:45:46.599 --> 00:45:50.159
able to respond, you know, creatively and with our whole brain.

874
00:45:50.519 --> 00:45:53.480
I also find sometimes when people have studied something so

875
00:45:53.639 --> 00:45:56.719
well and they know they've obatim script, they're more prone

876
00:45:56.719 --> 00:45:59.440
to stumble because they're like, oh, I can't remember the

877
00:45:59.480 --> 00:46:02.639
exact time a phrase that I used, or wait, I

878
00:46:02.679 --> 00:46:04.639
had a better way of saying that in my practice,

879
00:46:04.760 --> 00:46:07.480
and now it's lacking and now i've you know, you

880
00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:09.440
can see the confidence sort of drain out of the

881
00:46:09.559 --> 00:46:14.960
real time. So never practicing verbatim is something that I

882
00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:17.760
really encourage. So don't do it word for word, but

883
00:46:17.880 --> 00:46:21.719
also just run through it as concepts and know the

884
00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:24.519
direction of where you're headed and then leave it b

885
00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:26.679
trust that you will be able to pick that up

886
00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:29.159
and go with it. I give a lot of strategies

887
00:46:29.199 --> 00:46:33.440
for like a lighter touch preparation framework, And that's really

888
00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:36.920
to say most of us can rely on a lot

889
00:46:36.960 --> 00:46:40.840
of innate knowledge and ability in the moment, but we

890
00:46:41.000 --> 00:46:43.800
just need to kind of get ourselves there slowly. So

891
00:46:44.320 --> 00:46:46.480
by all means, don't do a one eighty. If you've

892
00:46:46.639 --> 00:46:50.079
practiced something ten x times, don't just never practice it again,

893
00:46:50.679 --> 00:46:53.800
but maybe practice it eight times and then six times,

894
00:46:53.840 --> 00:46:56.719
and then just wean yourself off a little bit such

895
00:46:56.760 --> 00:46:59.800
that you're growing the trust in yourself. I think that

896
00:46:59.840 --> 00:47:01.039
you are able to do it.

897
00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:04.159
Yeah, because you know in my experience too, you know,

898
00:47:04.199 --> 00:47:07.519
the people who over prepare, who do prepare ten times

899
00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:11.519
to do the presentation, then come to believe that doing

900
00:47:11.519 --> 00:47:14.119
a good job requires ten times. And so then if

901
00:47:14.119 --> 00:47:16.199
they are in a position where they can't do ten times,

902
00:47:16.280 --> 00:47:18.639
they immediately the default thought is that it's not going

903
00:47:18.679 --> 00:47:20.800
to be good because I haven't had my ten times.

904
00:47:20.920 --> 00:47:25.880
It leads to this perpetuating, this over functioning, which just

905
00:47:25.960 --> 00:47:28.000
causes burnout eventually.

906
00:47:28.199 --> 00:47:31.320
Yes, it really does, And you're right, we get fixated

907
00:47:31.400 --> 00:47:33.920
on like if it's not X, then I'm a failure

908
00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:36.480
or then I'm going to be bad. And it might

909
00:47:36.559 --> 00:47:39.119
be that the first few times you do it less

910
00:47:39.480 --> 00:47:41.920
is not as good as what you were doing. But

911
00:47:42.039 --> 00:47:44.719
that's maybe also what your job requires of you. Now

912
00:47:44.840 --> 00:47:48.360
maybe you've got eight of those presentations every two days,

913
00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:52.559
So it's about finding a comfort level with it and

914
00:47:52.599 --> 00:47:55.079
trusting that you have a lot of baseline knowledge that

915
00:47:55.119 --> 00:47:56.559
can you can bring to the four.

916
00:47:56.840 --> 00:47:59.480
You were a world champion debate, Kate. You have a

917
00:47:59.480 --> 00:48:01.599
lot of debate stories. I'm so impressed by the way,

918
00:48:01.639 --> 00:48:05.960
because that would terrify me. Debating would terrify me. But

919
00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:09.960
you've got some great stories about what you learned from debating.

920
00:48:10.039 --> 00:48:13.320
Like what did you learn from your debating experience that

921
00:48:13.760 --> 00:48:17.519
has served you well in how you communicate in big

922
00:48:17.599 --> 00:48:20.320
important kind of jobs and corporations. Like one of the

923
00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:23.440
things that you think were the really good lessons that

924
00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:24.639
you took from debate.

925
00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:28.079
What didn't I learn, Cass, I think my education in

926
00:48:28.199 --> 00:48:31.519
so many things. I think I learned to not be

927
00:48:31.599 --> 00:48:35.679
afraid because when you get up and you feel naked

928
00:48:35.719 --> 00:48:37.639
and you don't have anything to say, and you have

929
00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:39.159
to make it up on the spot and you can

930
00:48:39.239 --> 00:48:41.559
do it, and you sit down and realize the world

931
00:48:41.559 --> 00:48:45.360
didn't collapse. That's a very powerful thing. I think I

932
00:48:45.559 --> 00:48:48.679
learned that I have a lot of different strings in

933
00:48:48.679 --> 00:48:52.360
my bow when it comes to communicating. You know, part

934
00:48:52.400 --> 00:48:54.320
of what I used to do a lot when I

935
00:48:54.360 --> 00:48:57.599
was much younger was be one hundred percent aggressive the

936
00:48:57.679 --> 00:49:02.119
whole time and realize that actually wasn't very effective to

937
00:49:02.159 --> 00:49:05.239
be one mode of anything all the time. That communication

938
00:49:05.440 --> 00:49:08.519
naturally has ebbs and flows and drama in it. You know,

939
00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:11.039
we can get excited or angry about some things and

940
00:49:11.039 --> 00:49:13.599
then we can be more pulled back in other times.

941
00:49:13.679 --> 00:49:17.239
So that was like understanding that pattern and nuance of

942
00:49:17.280 --> 00:49:21.039
communication was really fascinating. It also served me, or taught

943
00:49:21.039 --> 00:49:24.159
me a ton about logic and the way if you

944
00:49:24.280 --> 00:49:28.519
have to present in order a list of persuasive arguments

945
00:49:28.519 --> 00:49:31.880
about something, how and why would you order it that way?

946
00:49:32.480 --> 00:49:35.679
And what's the strategy behind that? You do that enough

947
00:49:35.800 --> 00:49:39.519
times in enough different topics and you start seeing a

948
00:49:39.519 --> 00:49:43.159
lot of patterns. For me, I did, and realizing the

949
00:49:43.480 --> 00:49:46.800
innate sort of structures that are behind most things. So

950
00:49:46.880 --> 00:49:50.639
you hear then a politician or a CEO or someone

951
00:49:50.719 --> 00:49:54.199
say something. You have a framework by which to judge

952
00:49:54.880 --> 00:49:57.639
how robust that argument is or where to poke it

953
00:49:57.679 --> 00:50:01.159
to make it fall over. Essentially, I mean, it's really

954
00:50:01.159 --> 00:50:05.960
taught me everything, and it's been I actually believe everyone

955
00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:08.400
should do it, just because I feel it was such

956
00:50:08.400 --> 00:50:12.239
a valuable part of my education as both a human

957
00:50:12.280 --> 00:50:15.400
but also as someone who likes to think and play

958
00:50:15.440 --> 00:50:18.360
with ideas. I think it's a real playground.

959
00:50:18.840 --> 00:50:21.599
I loved your debating stories throughout the book, and just

960
00:50:21.679 --> 00:50:24.119
that idea. I think you're right that idea from an

961
00:50:24.199 --> 00:50:27.119
early age, from a young age, being having to be

962
00:50:27.280 --> 00:50:31.480
on the spot and having to face you're not going

963
00:50:31.559 --> 00:50:34.320
to get it right. I think, especially for girls who

964
00:50:34.480 --> 00:50:36.480
are very much going for the gold stars and going

965
00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:38.280
for the study hard and get the A plus, I

966
00:50:38.320 --> 00:50:40.559
think that's a very different kind of model, a very

967
00:50:40.559 --> 00:50:43.960
different training ground. Isn't it to just be you just

968
00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:46.639
got to wing it and you just got to absolutely

969
00:50:47.000 --> 00:50:48.519
and you're not always going to get it right, and

970
00:50:48.559 --> 00:50:49.679
that's okay too.

971
00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:54.000
Yes, yes, yeah, you fall and you fail a new flail,

972
00:50:55.039 --> 00:50:57.320
and then you have these wonderful moments where it does

973
00:50:57.360 --> 00:51:00.239
come together and you think, wow, I did that so

974
00:51:00.280 --> 00:51:05.480
there's joy and satisfaction and excitement as well. And maybe

975
00:51:05.719 --> 00:51:08.480
as a kid, the only place it's cool to be smart,

976
00:51:09.039 --> 00:51:11.599
which was kind of a joy. If you're a bit

977
00:51:11.599 --> 00:51:14.440
of a nerdy kid, you feel very seen and very

978
00:51:14.480 --> 00:51:16.840
excited to be like, oh, finally I get to take

979
00:51:16.880 --> 00:51:19.960
the floor for five minutes and tell you my opinions.

980
00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:21.719
It was quite a joyous thing.

981
00:51:23.559 --> 00:51:26.119
Okay, you've written a whole book, obviously, but I guess,

982
00:51:26.159 --> 00:51:28.719
just to wrap up, if for women who struggle with

983
00:51:28.920 --> 00:51:31.920
their communication at work and they struggle with confidence, like,

984
00:51:31.960 --> 00:51:33.599
you know, what's the takeaway that you would want them

985
00:51:33.599 --> 00:51:35.320
to have, what's the one message that you would want

986
00:51:35.360 --> 00:51:36.480
to share?

987
00:51:37.079 --> 00:51:40.800
Oh, Goshyoh a big question. Sorry, a huge question, but

988
00:51:40.800 --> 00:51:44.000
it's a great one. It's very juicy. I think the

989
00:51:44.119 --> 00:51:46.920
dual messages maybe if I can be cheeky and they

990
00:51:47.719 --> 00:51:50.880
you're probably doing a much better job than you already think,

991
00:51:51.480 --> 00:51:54.119
is part of it. And the second one is just

992
00:51:54.239 --> 00:51:58.199
be kind. Like this book, I've really positioned it as

993
00:51:58.480 --> 00:52:03.639
an invitation rather than a prescription, right, this is an

994
00:52:03.679 --> 00:52:07.079
invitation to think about where you are, how you're currently

995
00:52:07.119 --> 00:52:11.320
showing up, where you peek, and where you maybe have challenges,

996
00:52:12.079 --> 00:52:15.039
and it's really an invitation to say, if some of

997
00:52:15.079 --> 00:52:18.480
this resonates with you, give it a try, bring it

998
00:52:18.519 --> 00:52:21.840
into your world, see what works, see what doesn't. Roll

999
00:52:21.880 --> 00:52:25.079
around in it a little bit, and if it's useful,

1000
00:52:25.079 --> 00:52:28.119
and if it resonates and sticks, by all means, carry on.

1001
00:52:28.280 --> 00:52:31.159
But I think be kind to yourself in that process,

1002
00:52:31.239 --> 00:52:34.320
because I don't think any of us need another voice

1003
00:52:34.360 --> 00:52:36.519
telling us what to do or not what to do.

1004
00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:39.960
This is very much more of a I like to

1005
00:52:39.960 --> 00:52:43.079
think of it as a friendly guide that might be

1006
00:52:43.199 --> 00:52:47.400
useful in certain times or in difficult conversations, and that's

1007
00:52:47.440 --> 00:52:49.239
where it should be there, as a friendly place on

1008
00:52:49.480 --> 00:52:50.159
your bookshelf.

1009
00:52:51.239 --> 00:52:54.719
Absolutely, Okay, this has been so much fun. Thank you

1010
00:52:54.760 --> 00:52:55.679
so much for your time.

1011
00:52:55.800 --> 00:52:57.360
Thank you so much for having me. I could have

1012
00:52:57.400 --> 00:52:58.239
chatted for hours.

1013
00:52:58.880 --> 00:53:06.119
I know the problem is that I really could. Crappy

1014
00:53:06.119 --> 00:53:08.960
to Happy is created and produced by me Castunn. If

1015
00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:11.199
you enjoy the show, please hit the follow button wherever

1016
00:53:11.239 --> 00:53:13.719
you listen to ensure you never miss an episode. Share

1017
00:53:13.719 --> 00:53:15.280
with a friend to get me into the ears of

1018
00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:17.119
more lovely listeners, and I would love for you to

1019
00:53:17.159 --> 00:53:19.760
leave a five star rating and review. Thank you so much,

1020
00:53:19.800 --> 00:53:21.559
for being here and I cannot wait to catch you

1021
00:53:21.639 --> 00:53:27.519
next week for another fabulous episode of Crappy to Happy