March 20, 2022

Indigenous wisdom for modern times with Paul Callaghan

Indigenous wisdom for modern times with Paul Callaghan
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Indigenous wisdom for modern times with Paul Callaghan
Indigenous wisdom for modern times with Paul Callaghan
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Season 7 Personal Growth & Healing

In his 30s Worimi man Paul Callaghan was a success by all Western measures - he was well-educated with a good job, a family and a mortgage.But inside he was felt spiritually depleted and disconnected,  leading to a mental breakdown after his 35th birthday.
In this chat with Cass Dunn, Paul explains how going bush and reconnecting with his traditional beliefs and culture helped heal him.
And why he's sharing what he learnt with indigenous and non-indigenous Australians.
You can buy the book Paul co-wrote with Uncle Paul Gordon, called The Dreaming Path, here: https://www.booktopia.com.au/the-dreaming-path-paul-callaghan/book/9780648748953.html
Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypodwww.tiktok.com/crappytohappypod
Join the free 7-day Happiness Challenge:www.cassdunn.com/happiness

Connect with Cass:

www.cassdunn.com
www.instagram.com/cassdunn_xo

Contact Crappy to Happy:

Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
www.crappytohappypod.com
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypod
www.tiktok.com/@crappytohappypod


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Transcript
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A listener production. This is Crappita Happy and I am

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your host Castunn. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist, a

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mindfulness meditation teacher and of course author of the Crappita

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Happy books. In this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring,

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intelligent people who are experts in their field and who

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have something of value to share that will help you

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feel less crappy and more happy. Paul Callaghan is an

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Aboriginal man belonging to the land of the war Amie

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people on the coast of New South Wales, just north

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of Newcastle. At the age of thirty five, Paul had

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all the outward markers of success, a happy marriage, three

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young children, amazing job, house, two cars. As he said

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to me himself, he was the Aboriginal man the government

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wanted to put on all the posters as the example

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of a success story. At that age, he also had

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a breakdown and he found Western medicine and psychology was

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not able to help him. By fate or destiny, Paul

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found a path to his Aboriginal heritage and this is

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where he found hope and healing. And as he said

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to me himself, he didn't just get back to his

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old self, he discovered his true self. He's gone on

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to have a successful career, held senior executive positions in

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Aboriginal and non Aboriginal related areas, and now, together with

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Aboriginal elder uncle Paul Gordon, he has written a book

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called The Dreaming Path as a way for all Australians,

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Aboriginal and non Aboriginal to learn how Indigenous wisdom and

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spirituality can help us all to navigate modern life with

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more peace, contentment and well being. Here is my conversation

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with Paul Callaghan. Paul Callaghan, Welcome to the Crappy to

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Happy Podcast. It is an honor to have you joined

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me this morning.

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Thank you. I don't know about an honor that I

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certainly look forward to sharing with what seems to be

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a kindred spirit over things we're both passionate about, and

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I'm looking forward to seeing where we might come from

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different places, but in the kind of way we talk.

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Same, same, Yeah, definitely what.

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We're trying to do to help.

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People exactly, And we were having a little conversation off

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air about that. We've both worked in tafe organizations in

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the past, and you know, we've both written books in

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this space of health and mental health particularly, so we

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do have a lot in common. Paul, you were telling

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me that you were the first Aboriginal manager in Tafe,

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New South Wales. Can you tell me more about that

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part of your journey.

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I can. I started in Tafe in ninety ninety seven,

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which is a long time ago, but young time goes

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really really quick, just saying so that was nineteen ninety seven.

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That was just a couple of years after I'd had

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a nervous breakdown and major depress and suicidal thoughts, and

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I thought that I would struggle, and I was told

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by the system that I would never recover and never

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work again. But we had a couple of years. I

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had recovered enough to have faith in applying for a job,

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and I applied for a job in Tafe and I

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got it, and I started off in Tafe as a

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manager of an Aboriginal unit, which was just a wonderful

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role where I was responsible for providing trading and support

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to Aboriginal students and we built We built up our

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student base one thousand percent in three years, and just

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students coming in from everywhere doing amazing things. And I

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learned the power of not just education, because we all

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know that, but I learned the power of TAFE and

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I have to say TAFE for me back then. I

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think it's changed a bit now, but back then was

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one of the greatest secrets and resources in Australia ever.

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And it saddens me to hear of the changes in training.

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And I don't know why, but I kept on getting promoted.

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So I went from an aboriginal manager to the head

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of Access and Equity, which was all about supporting people

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from marginalized communities, people, students with disabilities, students from multicultural backgrounds,

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students incarceration, and that was just an amazing role as well.

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And then I was promoted to be the equipment of

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the Dean of Business and Computing because I have an

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accounting degree and I thought that would be a challenge,

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but I enjoyed being in mainstream and I found that

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all of my all of my staff and I had

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quite a few hundred, were just as committed to social

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inclusion and diversity as the specialized stuff. And then I

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got tapped on the shoulder and asked to apply to

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be an institute director or a CEO or the equivalent

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of the university is a vice chancellor with TAPE, and

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I became the boss of New England TAPE, where I

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had from memory twelve hundred staff. I had twenty three

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thousand students, a budget of about seventy million dollars and

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in our third year we were rewarded best large training

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provider in New South Wales and top three in Australia.

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And I guess, connecting all that, the reason I was

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so successful is I don't think people assessed me very

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well maybe hahah. But I used all of the things

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I learned from my orders by going Bush and Culture.

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I integrated that into the Western environment, including my leadership style,

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and it proved very successful for me.

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Well, congratulations, because that is that's a huge role to

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have and a very big job. Now I want to

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backpedal because you said that you came to TAFE after

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you had gone through a period of being depressed in

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suicidal and you were told that you would never recover

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and you would never work again, and obviously that was

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not the case. Can you share with me what the

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factors were that led to that breakdown?

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Yeah, I can share the factors, and a lot of

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the factors didn't become obvious until after. But I was

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cognizant enough at the time, because I've always been a

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person in embraced wellness. I was cognizant leading into my

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breakdown that something wasn't right, so it didn't come as

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a surprise, which might surprise some people. So from when

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I was younger, I was always a very positive person

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and always a high achiever. And so in my mid

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thirties I was in a really good place. I was

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married to a wonderful woman who still puts up with me.

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We had three children under five, We had two cars,

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we had a house. We lived near the water. So

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sometimes I say that I was the kind of the

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averageal person that the government would want us all to

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aspire to be in terms of success, and all those

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things were great. I had a degree in accounting, I

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had a diploma in surveying, had to play more in drafting,

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and I was at the time a manager in marketing

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for a university, and I was also a lecturer in economics.

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And what happened was I was pretty much a workaholic,

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and I demanded perfection of myself, and so I was

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driving myself pretty hard. And we had a new brother,

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a new baby, but just before our baby was born,

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the youngest Liam. My wife Allison went through a very

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difficult time and she was in hospital and the doctor

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said to me, one morning, you'll have to be here

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this morning. We think your wife has a brain chairman

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because she'd lost a vision and her blood pressure was

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up and she had massive headaches, and they said, we

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think she might have a brain tumor. So you'll need

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to be here because you might need to decide whether

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the baby lives or the mother lives. And so I said, okay,

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we don't have mobile phone. We didn't have mobile phone.

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So I said, I just need to go to work

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and tell them that I can't host this big, major

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promotional event that I was to do. And so I

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went up and told my manager that I couldn't do

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the event. It was three or four hundred VIPs from

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all over the state. It was a major thing. And

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she said to me, no, I need you to do

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this and then you can go down and see your

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wife after that. And so, being a person that's always

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been loyal to anybody and everybody, because that's the way

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I grew up, I said yes. And so I conducted

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that three hour session and I was the EMC and

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I was laughing and joking, but inside I was being

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torn apart because I didn't know what was happening with

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my wife, and so that kind of fractured me. And

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as I recovered from my breakdown and talked to a counselor,

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he said that was probably one of the breaking points.

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And he actually said to me, he said, why did

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you do that? He said, no normal person would do that.

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I said, well, that was my loyalty to the organization.

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And as I reached out to the system, I found

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counseling gave me lots of ideas, but I wasn't able

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to really shift what was going on within me. I

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found that I needed Dandy depressants for probably twelve months

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to lift me from that dark place, and I was

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very thankful for that. But during that time I read

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a lot of self help books, and some of the

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books on depression I would warn people, make you more

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depressed because you start looking for labels. I read a

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lot of other inspirational books, more on just cognitive ways

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of cognition thinking. I read inspirational books and I found

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all of those didn't give me a particular answer, but

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they gave me little nuggets of gold that I could

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harvest and start to stitch together in terms of what

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I needed for me. And so that enabled me then

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to be well enough to start thinking about going back

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to work. But before that I did hit a Christis

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point where because I've always been a very loyal person,

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I truly believed what the experts said, and they were

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saying to me quite consistently that this is manageable at best,

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that there's no cure, and that you probably won't recover

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enough to be able to work again. And so having

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a wife who was only thirty at the time and

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three young children, I thought, I really can't be a

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burden to these beautiful people. I can't be an invalid,

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I can't hold them back from their life. So I

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walked down the road to kill myself in a particular day.

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And it wasn't because of my own personal suffering. I

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was doing it because I knew they'd be ridiculed by

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the community, because they already had been guys that I

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played football and cricket whipple laughing at me. And there

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was only a matter of time, I knew, until the

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kids got bullied about their dad not being with it.

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So I was going to kill myself to free them up.

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But as I went to do it, a thought came

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to me, and the thought said, maybe you don't have

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to listen to what you've been told. Maybe you can

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prove everyone wrong, and that you can, you can find

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a way to heal yourself and then help others. And

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I went, Okay, I'll do that. And it wasn't a

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magical thing at all. It took me quite a few years,

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but over the years I started to rebuild my confidence

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and then I was taking Bush and given access to

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my culture. And that's when not only did I truly

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heal and go to the place that I'd aimed to be,

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which was back to my old self, I actually went

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past my old self and I realized then that I'd

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never really been me, and I found the real meat,

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and that was the Catharsis. That opened up a whole

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new wealth for me, where I reshaped everything I did

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and every way I behaved and became the real me.

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And that's provided me with a life of absolute contentment

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where I've achieved more things than I would have possibly

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dreamed of.

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Wow, Paul, when you say I was taken out Bush,

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what does that mean like who came and took a

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hold of you and took you out bush And what

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did that involve?

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I guess it was interesting because, particularly being on an

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abitional person on the East Coast, you hear stories all

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the time that culture is there, there's no traditional knowledge.

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You get told that that's a waste of time. So

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that's coming from kind of within your own networks in

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terms of family and friends. In terms of culture, I

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mean there's culture, there's contemporary culture. I grew up my

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mum's from Crual Mission, and I grew up living with

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mum in the mission or visiting the mission every day.

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So I grew up knowing that, but I didn't know

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any of the traditional things such as language, such as

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the old stories, such as old practices and value systems.

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And you get told that that's not there, even though

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I yearned for it. I kind of hadn't thought it was,

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but it was. It was just that it was somewhat

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hidden for many, many reasons, and so I was. You

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can I would call it serendipity. I would say it

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was a lot of luck, but you could also argue

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possibly destiny. But as I was doing my work, a

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person asked me one day and just said would you

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like to come Bush and learn some things about traditional culture?

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And I went, wow, I didn't know that it exists,

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and they said, yeah, it does. So I thought, okay,

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I'd like that. And when I told other people I

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was going to do it, people warned me. They said, no, no,

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it doesn't exist. There'll be Charlatan's, there'll be liars. Be careful,

240
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they're about to rip you off to make it up.

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They just do it to make themselves feel good. It's

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all lies. And then other people said to me, don't

243
00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:10.679
do that. That's any Christian. You'll get sek you'll get cancer,

244
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you'll diet. So there are lots of pressures for me

245
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not to do it, but I thought, no, I'll go

246
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with your due diligence and I'll see what this is

247
00:14:19.320 --> 00:14:22.399
all about. And so the first night I went out

248
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Bush was quite open minded, at the same time a

249
00:14:28.279 --> 00:14:32.519
little bit a little bit careful to make sure I

250
00:14:32.559 --> 00:14:36.720
was not walking into something that wasn't quite right. And

251
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I just found this amazing door was open to me

252
00:14:39.039 --> 00:14:45.639
in terms of care, nurture, love, knowledge, connection, all these things.

253
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And I was taken to a site that I talk

254
00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:52.120
about in my book and they've given the story behind it.

255
00:14:52.200 --> 00:14:54.600
And to connect with something that's over ten thousand years

256
00:14:54.639 --> 00:14:58.600
old and hear the story, it's not so much the

257
00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:02.200
logic of what you hear through years, it's the feeling inside.

258
00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:04.759
And it's not just because I was an Aboriginal person.

259
00:15:04.799 --> 00:15:07.840
It was because I was connected to that spot by

260
00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:10.480
someone who was there with me. And I've had the

261
00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:14.279
privilege of doing on Abiginal people since. And that is

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the power of connecting with the footsteps of our old ones.

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And sometimes I like to talk about hearing the whispers

264
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of the ancient wisdom that surrounds us that is still there.

265
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So going Bush was about connecting with people that had

266
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been given stories and knowledge from the old ways. And

267
00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:35.559
so it's part of a connection of something that's over

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00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:39.039
sixty thousand years old. And that's the really beautiful thing.

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This knowledge has been there for a very long time,

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and it was almost wiped out after seventeen eighty eight,

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quite deliberately by government policy and also assimilationist ways of being.

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But it isn't gone. And I was just very fortunate

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that I was given a snippet of that and able

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to that over many decades and in more recent times.

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When I was talking to one of the elders, I

276
00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:10.720
said to one of the elders, you know, I've learned

277
00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:15.440
so much, and it's not something that's backward looking. I've

278
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used all the things you've taught me in this contemporary world,

279
00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:22.039
and it's given me an ability to cope with all

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00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:24.840
the different pressures of holding down a job and paying

281
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off a mortgage and being a leader and having staff

282
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and being able to still be me. And they said, yeah,

283
00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:37.039
that's right. It's there for the contemporte world. And I said,

284
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I think all of this stuff would be really useful

285
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for non Aboriginal people as well. Can we share it?

286
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And they said, yeah, we can, because the knowledge that

287
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we have belongs to the land, and the people on

288
00:16:51.799 --> 00:16:54.240
this land need to hear it so they can learn

289
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from it as well. And then we all can be one.

290
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And the way I like to think about it, and

291
00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:02.159
the way some of the old people describe it, is

292
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we can all sit around that fire together in a

293
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circle where we don't judge each other, where the circle

294
00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:12.000
is unbroken, where everyone is equal, where we see each

295
00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:15.359
other in safety, where we know we can speak, but

296
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also we know we can listen and that's I guess

297
00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:22.160
something really important about what I've learned When I wrote

298
00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:25.880
The Dreaming Path. Initially it was a book where I

299
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was trying to share my insights from my personal journey

300
00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:34.039
and how I've used Aboriginal values and philosophy to create

301
00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:37.960
a life that's beyond my dreams in terms of contentment.

302
00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:42.480
But now I've been thinking about it, it's also of

303
00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:47.240
equal for reconciliation, where non average Australia can feel comfortable

304
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about being on this beautiful land and we can join

305
00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:55.160
hands and walk together into the future as one, so

306
00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:59.920
that we can really all celebrate not only the present

307
00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:04.200
but also what our old people have done for sixty

308
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thousand years. And Lady is care for this place and

309
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love this place, and give us knowledge to care not

310
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only for place, but for each other.

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I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the

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00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:21.079
benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are

313
00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:23.920
enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe

314
00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:26.279
so that you get notified when you epps drop and

315
00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:28.759
head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen

316
00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:42.319
and leave us a rating and reviews.

317
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Aul.

318
00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:40.400
So basically, what you just described, is that you had

319
00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:45.240
achieved all of the western definition of success outwardly, all

320
00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:47.440
the things that the world tells you are going to

321
00:18:47.480 --> 00:18:51.759
make you happy, but fundamentally there was a disconnect inside you.

322
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You had were separated from your culture and your authenticity

323
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I guess, and in real connecting in that way that

324
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you were then able to, as you told us earlier,

325
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bring all of that wisdom back almost reset, and then

326
00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:15.039
apply that to your life and continue to achieve astonishing success,

327
00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:20.920
but without necessarily having to make that to cut yourself

328
00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:23.359
off from all of that other very important part of

329
00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:27.720
your life and your history and ancestry. Have I summed

330
00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:28.079
that up.

331
00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:33.799
That's a beautiful summary. That's a beautiful summary. And counseling

332
00:19:34.039 --> 00:19:36.319
was certainly helpful, but it wasn't the total answer. And

333
00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:40.039
something that the counselor told me. And end up becoming

334
00:19:40.039 --> 00:19:41.680
a really good friend, and I end up taking him

335
00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:45.640
bush and sharing culture with him, which was twenty years after,

336
00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:49.960
which was a wonderful way to repay what had given me.

337
00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:51.640
But he said to me one day in one of

338
00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:54.720
our sessions, he said to me, Paul, I can't give

339
00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:57.640
you the answers, but I can tell you going through this.

340
00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:01.640
There's a message to you from you about you. And

341
00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:04.119
he said, if you can find a place quiet and

342
00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:06.359
try and find that message, he said, I think you'll

343
00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:09.440
find that this is happening for a reason, and you'll

344
00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:12.880
be able to turn it around. And so I didn't

345
00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:15.799
just sit there and look for an answer, because I've

346
00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:18.160
learned that sometimes the more you search for an answer,

347
00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:20.039
it might't come. But if you're trying to relax, it

348
00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:22.359
will come. But looking back, I can see what it

349
00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:27.000
was was I'd spent my entire life, well maybe from

350
00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:29.960
say ten years old upwards. I'd spent from ten years

351
00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:33.559
to my thirty fifth birthday trying to be all things

352
00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:36.960
to all people at all times. So I was answering

353
00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:42.079
to everybody's expectations. I was trying to be the perfect son.

354
00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:45.200
I was trying to be the perfect person. I was

355
00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:47.839
trying to be the funniest guy. I was trying to

356
00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:50.079
be the perfect friend. I was trying to be a

357
00:20:50.079 --> 00:20:52.839
bit of a sports hero. I was trying to be

358
00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:56.160
the perfect husband. I was trying to be the perfect father.

359
00:20:56.839 --> 00:21:00.200
I was trying to be the perfect work colleague. And

360
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.480
I realized in hindsight that I was just exhausting myself,

361
00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:05.640
and in none of that was I trying to be me.

362
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:09.200
I was just spending my entire existence trying to be

363
00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:13.279
everybody else's whatever they wanted me to be. And so

364
00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:17.000
as I recovered and looked around and started to learn

365
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:19.799
my cultural things, I realized, Wow, this isn't just me

366
00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:24.319
that's getting sucked into this vacuum. It's just about everybody.

367
00:21:24.359 --> 00:21:28.799
And what I realized was the old people have a

368
00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:31.400
beautiful saying. They say, when we leave this world behind

369
00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:35.039
or we leave behind, is our story, so make it

370
00:21:35.079 --> 00:21:38.640
the best story possible. And so that's a really beautiful,

371
00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:43.440
beautiful thing to anchor your thoughts on regularly if you

372
00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:46.519
want to do a bit of a reflection about your life,

373
00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:50.920
and that is, when I leave this world, will I

374
00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:53.160
be able to say I'm leaving my best story possible.

375
00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:55.799
And my observation for most people, we think we're living

376
00:21:55.839 --> 00:21:58.640
a good story, but we're not. What we're living is

377
00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:03.000
a busy story. I see everyone being busy, and I

378
00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:07.200
was the same, and there are times now where I'm

379
00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:09.920
still busy. But the important thing is I choose to

380
00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:13.519
be busy because an observation I've made is when you

381
00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:16.160
look at traditional culture, and I'll use a little bit

382
00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:18.359
of a kind of Aboriginal way of thinking and talking.

383
00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:21.720
In Aboriginal culture, the boss was mother Nature. She was

384
00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:25.720
our boss. Ultimately, everything we did was to the heartbeat

385
00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:30.000
of Mother Earth. So we moved. We moved in accordance

386
00:22:30.039 --> 00:22:33.440
with where food and water was, and we moved so

387
00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:37.640
we didn't kill any particular place. But that was how

388
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:41.559
we lived our life and it gave us everything we needed.

389
00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:43.720
So if you can imagine a world where there was

390
00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:49.519
no war, no hunger, no poverty. If you can imagine

391
00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:53.160
a world where there are no jails, no police, where

392
00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:58.160
everyone lived to be old age pretty much and the

393
00:22:58.200 --> 00:23:00.880
place of wellness mind, body and spirit. That was traditional

394
00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:06.599
Aboriginal Australian. But now we get consumed with all this busyness.

395
00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:09.640
And so the boss now is the clock. So you

396
00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:13.200
think about any one of us. We wake up, what

397
00:23:13.240 --> 00:23:15.400
time is it, we get through the day, what time

398
00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:17.799
is it we get home, What time is it we

399
00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:21.000
get to a traffic light. The red light gets us

400
00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:26.319
really angry because it's stopping us, it's stopping our time.

401
00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:29.480
And so we're trying to beat the clock. Whereas in

402
00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:32.599
the Abriginal way, there is no such thing as time.

403
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:36.039
It's actually I've just finished my PhD. And there's a

404
00:23:36.119 --> 00:23:41.240
quote from a psychiatry workshop that it provides an evidence

405
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:43.200
based to the average way of thinking, and that is

406
00:23:43.400 --> 00:23:48.000
Aboriginal time is cyclical. Past, present in future is the

407
00:23:48.039 --> 00:23:55.359
same thing, and so it cycles. And when the colonizers

408
00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:58.759
first observed Aboriginal people, they thought we were just The

409
00:23:58.759 --> 00:24:01.839
phrase lazy black was used all the time. They also

410
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:05.519
walk about they're about time. We weren't lazy at all.

411
00:24:05.880 --> 00:24:10.839
For Abiginal people. We serviced all of our essential safety

412
00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:14.680
and physiological needs. If you look at Maslet's hierarchy, we

413
00:24:14.759 --> 00:24:17.440
service that anywhere between half an hour and two hours

414
00:24:17.480 --> 00:24:19.799
of a day maximum. On the coast, it was probably

415
00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:21.799
half an hour a day. Inland, probably two hours a

416
00:24:21.880 --> 00:24:24.519
day because we knew country and we knew what we

417
00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:27.000
needed to do, and so the rest of the time

418
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:33.400
was nurturing relationships and sharing knowledge. So we were sitting

419
00:24:33.400 --> 00:24:36.799
down and sharing things. But others observe that as wasting time,

420
00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:39.839
because there's this whole thing of time. But time is

421
00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:42.440
a precious resource, we know, and it can't be bottled

422
00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:44.799
and it can't be saved, and we need to use

423
00:24:44.839 --> 00:24:47.480
it well. But if you go back to what I

424
00:24:47.480 --> 00:24:50.440
said earlier that for optional people, all we leave behind

425
00:24:50.519 --> 00:24:55.559
is our story. That's kind of an anchorage point about

426
00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:57.759
I need to reflect on this precious time I have

427
00:24:57.839 --> 00:25:01.680
on this earth. Do I want my story to read?

428
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:05.319
What is my story? When we're younger, my observation is

429
00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:07.799
we dream and go, yeah, I want my story to

430
00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:10.240
be A B, C and D. And then we hit

431
00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:14.240
our fifties and sixties and we go, I'm unhappy. And

432
00:25:14.279 --> 00:25:17.240
then maybe we reflect on and say, yeah, I'm not

433
00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:20.519
doing what I would have liked to have done. And

434
00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:24.039
I've got friends that have told me they have lives

435
00:25:24.119 --> 00:25:29.519
of regret, and that's really sad. Because we're here now.

436
00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:32.319
People say we're conceived in love, we're born in love,

437
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:35.759
we live in love when we go back to love,

438
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:40.160
and so it's about us embracing our story and our

439
00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:44.359
purpose and why we're here. But I don't think we're

440
00:25:44.359 --> 00:25:46.599
born to just be busy. I think we I mean

441
00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:50.200
the dreaming path in terms of the phraseology. What it's

442
00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:53.559
about is in our written way of thinking, we're all

443
00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:57.880
born to follow the dreaming path. And the dreaming path

444
00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:00.279
is I care for my place and author is in

445
00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:03.079
my place. We all have that purpose if you like,

446
00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:07.000
but how we do that is different, but we all

447
00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:09.440
align with that. And so if you imagine the world,

448
00:26:10.599 --> 00:26:13.160
would I guess the question you ask because some people

449
00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:15.000
might look at me and go, oh, that's new age

450
00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:17.640
poppy coop, But just have a think about it from

451
00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:23.960
an objective, reflective perspective. If everyone in the world, or

452
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:26.039
let's say eighty five percent of people in the world,

453
00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:29.200
could live a life focused on caring for our place

454
00:26:29.400 --> 00:26:31.519
and all things in our place, so that's each other,

455
00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:35.640
that's the animals, that's the environment, would the world be

456
00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:39.039
a better or a worse place? And that's not saying

457
00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:41.400
we don't embrace technology and that we need to do

458
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:44.960
things that generate power and to get food production to

459
00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:47.920
the scar we need for a seven point seven billion population.

460
00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:53.160
But the question is if we all were able to

461
00:26:53.240 --> 00:26:56.279
live our best story, which means we're all part of

462
00:26:56.319 --> 00:27:01.599
this beautiful mosaic in different ways that cares for country

463
00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:04.440
and cares for each other, would that be a better world?

464
00:27:04.519 --> 00:27:06.880
And my argument is that sure would be one.

465
00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:11.240
Yeah, definitely, And I think you know we're more and

466
00:27:11.319 --> 00:27:14.240
more we're waking up to this we're realizing. And the

467
00:27:14.279 --> 00:27:16.079
thing that struck me about your book, Paul, is that

468
00:27:16.519 --> 00:27:20.720
you know, I teach meditation, and I last year I

469
00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:24.279
did my yoga teacher training, and all of these people

470
00:27:24.599 --> 00:27:30.200
are realizing the wisdom of these simple philosophies and getting

471
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:34.000
back to a more simple existence. And we tend to

472
00:27:34.039 --> 00:27:37.440
look to everybody wants to go on to India and

473
00:27:37.519 --> 00:27:39.720
meet a guru, or go over to South America and

474
00:27:39.799 --> 00:27:42.799
have some Ayahuascar or and there is just so much

475
00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:47.440
of that wisdom and culture right here, literally in our backyard.

476
00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:50.160
We don't have to travel to these foreign places to

477
00:27:50.279 --> 00:27:53.720
connect with these ancient this ancient wisdom and these ancient

478
00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:57.200
principles that are so relevant and necessary in our life

479
00:27:57.319 --> 00:27:59.039
right now. We can connect with that right here.

480
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:03.839
I agree entirely. I mean, as I healed myself, I

481
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:06.680
read a lot of those books and they were beautiful

482
00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:08.880
and they helped me a lot. So I read books

483
00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:11.319
in terms of North American wisdom. I read books in

484
00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:14.640
terms of Buddhist philosophy. I read books in terms of

485
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:17.640
Hindu philosophy, and I read all sorts of books and

486
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:21.240
they all helped me. And when I talked to the elders.

487
00:28:21.880 --> 00:28:24.599
What we agreed was and as part of the Aboriginal

488
00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:27.319
way of thinking, it's not about having the one answer.

489
00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:29.839
It's not about saying we're the right way. It's about saying,

490
00:28:30.440 --> 00:28:33.400
here's another thing to add to that beautiful universal wisdom

491
00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:36.599
that people can look at and see what works for them.

492
00:28:36.680 --> 00:28:41.160
So the book I've written isn't meant to place itself

493
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:43.319
above any other book. It's to say here it is.

494
00:28:43.799 --> 00:28:46.759
But I was interviewed by someone who was somewhat cynical

495
00:28:47.480 --> 00:28:51.319
and had me on the defensive, which I didn't expect

496
00:28:51.880 --> 00:28:54.640
around the book, and it was not a bad thing

497
00:28:54.680 --> 00:28:57.039
because it forced me to think about what is the

498
00:28:57.079 --> 00:28:59.440
answer to the question? And the kind of question was

499
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:02.640
We've heard all these things in terms of Asian philosophy,

500
00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:06.519
so what makes this so different? And now I've thought

501
00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:08.960
about it, it's not about being different. In some ways,

502
00:29:09.039 --> 00:29:12.960
it's reinforcing those universal truths. At the same time, it

503
00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:15.559
gives people a different way of viewing the world, and

504
00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:19.799
that's always hawthy. But it also comes from the world's

505
00:29:19.960 --> 00:29:24.599
oldest living culture. So all those other things are beautiful,

506
00:29:25.839 --> 00:29:28.680
but this is sixty thousand years of culture that belongs

507
00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:32.359
to this land that our people have lived by for

508
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:34.920
a long, long long time. I mean, the Pyramids are

509
00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:39.160
only five thousand years old. We've got rockfish traps out

510
00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:42.559
of Brilarrena that are fifty thousand years old, and these

511
00:29:42.599 --> 00:29:45.960
things have given us a good life. So part of this,

512
00:29:46.039 --> 00:29:48.000
and I did it, I kind of addressed it in

513
00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:53.440
my PhD, was that there are still people. And Tony

514
00:29:53.480 --> 00:29:55.680
Ebbott was one that said when he was Prime Minister

515
00:29:55.759 --> 00:30:01.000
in Minister Average Affairs, he said that that colonization was

516
00:30:01.039 --> 00:30:03.759
on the whole a good thing for optional people because

517
00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:10.200
it brought us to the technological world. Our world gave

518
00:30:10.279 --> 00:30:13.359
us everything we needed for a very long time because

519
00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:18.160
we didn't need the phone, we didn't need the wheel,

520
00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:21.680
because we didn't need to carry last thing. So it's

521
00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:23.960
all in context. Now in this contemporary world we need

522
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:28.440
those things, but we can still use the learning from

523
00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:33.039
our old ways in this contemporary world. And I agree

524
00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:38.160
with what you said ks the simpler we make our life,

525
00:30:38.559 --> 00:30:42.440
the easier it is to find contentment. And research shows

526
00:30:42.480 --> 00:30:43.920
that you know, we earn too much money. We get

527
00:30:43.960 --> 00:30:46.160
to material things and we get really stressed out about

528
00:30:46.200 --> 00:30:48.960
holding onto them. But something that's simple doesn't mean us

529
00:30:49.039 --> 00:30:52.200
not profound. And this is really important for me in

530
00:30:52.599 --> 00:30:56.279
how I share my views on Aboriginal governance and education.

531
00:30:56.440 --> 00:31:00.680
Our educational systems were really, really complex, and I've actually

532
00:31:00.759 --> 00:31:06.680
mapped it. I've mapped best practice education against Aboriginal pedagogy

533
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:09.680
and epistemology and ontology, all the different ways of learning

534
00:31:09.720 --> 00:31:12.839
and thinking, and our stuff is there. It's just hidden

535
00:31:13.319 --> 00:31:15.759
because the way we do it is we say, let's

536
00:31:15.799 --> 00:31:19.160
share a story, Let's have you on and share a story.

537
00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:22.920
And yet through story we learn so much. And so

538
00:31:23.079 --> 00:31:27.839
dream time stories aren't fairy tales. But they sound simple,

539
00:31:28.440 --> 00:31:31.799
but underneath are all these profound messages about I need

540
00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:34.920
to be a good person, I need to not be greedy,

541
00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:36.880
I need to be loving, I need to be humble,

542
00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:40.599
I need to always share, I need to be respectful.

543
00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:45.480
They're beautiful ways to live life. So they're simple, but

544
00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:49.160
they're profound, and they're sophisticated in terms of how do

545
00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:53.759
I enact that. So certainly my tip to people they

546
00:31:53.759 --> 00:31:55.599
don't have to read the book, of course, but is

547
00:31:55.640 --> 00:32:00.720
to try and declutter their world so that they can

548
00:32:00.799 --> 00:32:04.839
find that profound in the busyness. Because our business clutteres

549
00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:07.599
up everything, and I know that in terms of my breakdown.

550
00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:11.599
But once I started to define myself and say I'm

551
00:32:11.640 --> 00:32:13.559
going to walk my footsteps, but I'll do it in

552
00:32:13.599 --> 00:32:16.640
a way that's respectful to others, I became a CEO.

553
00:32:16.759 --> 00:32:20.559
And I would never have expected that because I didn't

554
00:32:20.599 --> 00:32:22.079
want to be a leader. I never wanted to be,

555
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:24.359
but I realized at a point in time that I

556
00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:26.160
was meant to. So I thought, if I'm meant to

557
00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:28.480
be a leader, I'd better learn how to be a

558
00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:31.680
good one. And so that was about me embracing my

559
00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:36.119
responsibilities on where destiny was taking me. But in doing that,

560
00:32:37.319 --> 00:32:40.079
I've always made sure that I bround myself and going

561
00:32:40.119 --> 00:32:44.359
back to reading all sorts of things. And our teachers,

562
00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:46.880
our old people, say that when they sit you down

563
00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:48.880
in the circle, I say, I can share some things

564
00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:51.799
with you and you'll learn, but there'll be a point

565
00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:54.519
where I can't teach you anymore. And where your greatest

566
00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:58.440
learning will come from is going somewhere in nature that

567
00:32:58.519 --> 00:33:00.759
connects with you and sitting there being still for a

568
00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:06.319
day or two, and then the nature, the trees and

569
00:33:06.319 --> 00:33:08.759
the animals will come to you and they'll teach you

570
00:33:08.839 --> 00:33:11.519
things and that sounds a bit airy fairy too, but

571
00:33:11.559 --> 00:33:14.000
I've done it. And if you have that place of

572
00:33:14.039 --> 00:33:16.000
stillness and it taps into what you were saying kas

573
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:20.839
about meditation, you have these profound insights into your own

574
00:33:20.920 --> 00:33:25.599
life and others. And so it's really funny how these

575
00:33:25.720 --> 00:33:29.359
days mindfulness is such a big thing. But going back

576
00:33:29.400 --> 00:33:32.039
to the term I talked about earlier, walk about, walk

577
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:36.319
about isn't walk about. Walk about is walking country and

578
00:33:36.359 --> 00:33:39.720
seeing every single thing there, the dust, the trees, the sky,

579
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:44.039
the animals, the leaves, the flowers, and connecting with it

580
00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:46.559
and being in that moment with every step you take.

581
00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:49.799
So it's a walking mindfulness that is very, very free.

582
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:53.200
So what I suggest to people as a starting point

583
00:33:53.240 --> 00:33:56.680
in trying to push back on business is make a

584
00:33:56.720 --> 00:33:59.079
point every day of taking your shoes and socks off

585
00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:01.200
and going out the back yard or frontyard and just

586
00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:04.640
rubbing your feet into to the sand or dirt or

587
00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:07.880
grass and pretend you're a battery, trying to connect to

588
00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:11.000
a source and let that current of mother nature come

589
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:12.840
through you and just feel how good it is to

590
00:34:12.880 --> 00:34:13.280
be alive.

591
00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:16.920
Pail the book is co written with Uncle Paul Gordon.

592
00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:19.199
Can you tell me who Uncle Paul Gordon is and

593
00:34:19.239 --> 00:34:21.800
what your connection is with him, and how he came

594
00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:22.559
to co write this.

595
00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:26.719
Book with you. Uncle Paul Gordon, he is an amazing

596
00:34:26.760 --> 00:34:30.239
man who I didn't meet until a little while into

597
00:34:30.280 --> 00:34:33.840
my cultural path. So when I was taking bullshit was

598
00:34:33.880 --> 00:34:39.639
by other people and they kept on talking about Uncle

599
00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:44.320
Paul to the point being a cynic and indocrinated it

600
00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:47.480
with a similationist ways of thinking. I thought, who is

601
00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:50.519
this Uncle Paul? Everyone's putting on this bloody pedestal. I

602
00:34:50.519 --> 00:34:54.079
can't see anyone being that great. I'm a bit skeptical

603
00:34:54.119 --> 00:34:55.679
of this guy. Sounds like he's a bit of a

604
00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:58.519
big notor. And so I didn't meet him for quite

605
00:34:58.559 --> 00:35:02.719
a while, like well a year, and then I finally

606
00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:07.360
met him and spent a little bit of time with him,

607
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:09.280
a lot, but a bit. And when I met him,

608
00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:13.239
I realized how wrong I was number one, to judge

609
00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:17.400
someone I hadn't met, and number two, how cynical I

610
00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:19.599
was when all people said we are nice things, and

611
00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:23.079
straight away I wanted to tea bup those things. And

612
00:35:23.239 --> 00:35:26.000
number three, I needed to get to know him. And

613
00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:28.159
now people talk about that, they say, you can't really

614
00:35:28.199 --> 00:35:30.440
you shouldn't judge anyone anyway, But you really can't make

615
00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:33.239
an opinion on anything until you know its story or

616
00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:37.159
a person story. And once I listened to him, I

617
00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:39.559
found all this profound wisdom that he was willing to share,

618
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:43.159
and it was unbelievable, and I became When I first

619
00:35:43.159 --> 00:35:45.559
met him, I was guilty about how I judged him.

620
00:35:47.199 --> 00:35:49.559
And then I realized how much knowledge he had, And

621
00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:51.440
in our way of thinking, when you have knowledge, you

622
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:55.400
become quite to coin a Western phraise magical and say

623
00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:59.159
overturned clever man, and the ability to do psychic things.

624
00:35:59.159 --> 00:36:01.400
So then I became a bit frightened. I thought he

625
00:36:01.480 --> 00:36:04.559
might read my mind and smite me. So I became

626
00:36:04.639 --> 00:36:07.719
a bit frightened of him and a bit timid. But

627
00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:10.639
as I got to know him, I realized none of

628
00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:12.960
that was true, None of that dark stuff was true

629
00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:15.039
about him. He was just the person that wanted to share,

630
00:36:16.199 --> 00:36:18.679
and he shares in a very caring and loving and

631
00:36:18.760 --> 00:36:20.760
laughing mate. But now I've known him for well over

632
00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:24.760
two decades, I realized every seed he plans is for

633
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:27.679
a purpose. He plants seeds in all sorts of people

634
00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:30.920
so that there's a garden rather than one person. And

635
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:34.679
so then he became a teacher that I admired dearly,

636
00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:39.920
and then over time we became friends. And then we

637
00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:43.719
became best friends where I can share all sorts of

638
00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:48.400
things additional to the cultural knowledge. And now we're a

639
00:36:48.440 --> 00:36:51.719
team where we share with others. So in a way,

640
00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:56.760
he's brought me through. I'm just laughing to myself. I

641
00:36:56.800 --> 00:36:59.159
don't know why, but I'm suddenly seeing Master Yoda and

642
00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:02.559
Luke Skywalker coming up through the ranks. But therefully, we're

643
00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:05.639
not killing any Darth Vaders. Maybe Darth Vader is the

644
00:37:05.679 --> 00:37:08.880
Western system that kind of takes us to the dark

645
00:37:08.920 --> 00:37:14.360
side of the force. But Paul shared and now works

646
00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:17.880
with me, and he never ceases to amaze me with

647
00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:21.079
the knowledge he has. I was within last weekend because

648
00:37:21.320 --> 00:37:23.679
he had sorry business. He lost someone to you and

649
00:37:23.719 --> 00:37:26.480
his family, so a lot of us went to support him,

650
00:37:26.480 --> 00:37:30.360
and he still amazed me with knowledge that he has

651
00:37:30.519 --> 00:37:33.760
from it feels like he's been alive for about two

652
00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:36.199
hundred years. But he has traveled country and been with

653
00:37:36.280 --> 00:37:40.039
a lot of old, clever people and wise people throughout

654
00:37:40.599 --> 00:37:45.280
this continent and has an incredible memory in terms of

655
00:37:45.320 --> 00:37:50.119
traditional knowledge, but also contemporary knowledge and how to how

656
00:37:50.159 --> 00:37:53.280
to integrate the two. And he's almost kind of bilingual

657
00:37:53.360 --> 00:37:57.000
in terms of different cultures. And he's certainly been able

658
00:37:57.079 --> 00:38:00.000
to share things with me that have not only changed

659
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:03.519
into my life, but he supported me to use what

660
00:38:03.559 --> 00:38:07.119
he's given me to change lives. So if we were

661
00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:10.000
if we look at each other, I guess we're like

662
00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:13.440
two circles that overlap. So he has a knowledge base,

663
00:38:13.880 --> 00:38:17.199
I have a different experiences. I have a slightly different one,

664
00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:20.480
but then we overlap where we do share. And so

665
00:38:21.679 --> 00:38:24.119
in the book, I've quoted him directly because he has

666
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:26.840
a very unique way of thinking and speaking, and I

667
00:38:26.880 --> 00:38:30.039
didn't want to sanitize that or take away the resonance

668
00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:33.000
and the beauty of how he speaks. And so in

669
00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:37.039
the book, I quoted him directly because I think people

670
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:40.280
just need to hear his voice in their mind because

671
00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:42.960
and I guess the way I've written it is I'm

672
00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:45.480
kind of the connected between the different parts of the

673
00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:48.360
book where he speaks where I put in my two

674
00:38:48.440 --> 00:38:53.719
cents worth. But he is a phenomenal man, a giving person,

675
00:38:54.079 --> 00:38:56.519
and there is much to learn from.

676
00:38:56.440 --> 00:39:03.719
Him throughout the book too. You have included stories Aboriginal

677
00:39:03.960 --> 00:39:08.400
dream time stories, and you've also included exercises or reflections.

678
00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:10.679
I guess that people can take and apply to bring

679
00:39:10.760 --> 00:39:13.159
this to their own lives, and so it is very

680
00:39:13.159 --> 00:39:15.320
relevant and very applicable. And I just wanted to make

681
00:39:15.320 --> 00:39:17.840
the comment too when you talked about story that even

682
00:39:17.880 --> 00:39:22.400
in Western psychology, you know, the power of metaphor is proven,

683
00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:26.000
the fact that we learn and we retain and we

684
00:39:26.039 --> 00:39:30.480
get these insights not through being told things directly, but

685
00:39:30.639 --> 00:39:33.039
through the power of metaphor. And I think that that's

686
00:39:33.159 --> 00:39:35.239
essentially what these stories are, isn't it.

687
00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:38.719
They are And while you were speaking, I was thinking

688
00:39:38.760 --> 00:39:42.440
about you. They are metaphorms. But also I guess if

689
00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:46.000
you think about it, would you sit down, would you

690
00:39:46.039 --> 00:39:50.159
prefer to be given a story or given a lecture exactly?

691
00:39:51.159 --> 00:39:54.079
And a lot of the Western world staff are lectures

692
00:39:54.280 --> 00:39:58.079
like I'm going to tell you, whereas a story is

693
00:39:58.159 --> 00:40:01.000
let's share, which says I expect you and I'm going

694
00:40:01.039 --> 00:40:03.199
to share this with you, and then you're welcome to listen,

695
00:40:03.239 --> 00:40:05.320
and then let's have a yan about it and you

696
00:40:05.400 --> 00:40:08.599
can give your thoughts. And the beauty of when we

697
00:40:08.719 --> 00:40:12.320
share with a story. And I've written a children's book

698
00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:13.800
that will be coming out later in the year for

699
00:40:13.880 --> 00:40:16.000
nine year olds that has a lot of news stories

700
00:40:16.039 --> 00:40:19.880
that I've written, and it's got this vehicle where there's

701
00:40:19.880 --> 00:40:22.039
an old man sharing with these two kids that listen

702
00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:24.639
to the stories. And as I wrote that book, I

703
00:40:24.679 --> 00:40:29.519
realized that with this sharing, I might write a dream

704
00:40:29.559 --> 00:40:32.000
time story. For instance, in chapter eight of The Dreaming Path,

705
00:40:32.480 --> 00:40:35.320
I wrote a story about leadership based on a full necklizard,

706
00:40:36.599 --> 00:40:38.679
and it's done quite deliberately. I've put all sorts of

707
00:40:38.679 --> 00:40:41.760
things in there for discussion, but when people read that story,

708
00:40:41.840 --> 00:40:44.239
they'll also come up with other things that they've seen

709
00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:48.280
that I had no intentions of depicting, because they'll have

710
00:40:48.320 --> 00:40:51.639
their own context insights. And that's the beauty of sharing story.

711
00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:57.480
If we sit down and share with mutual respect and

712
00:40:57.559 --> 00:41:01.599
equality of power and a willingness to listen to each

713
00:41:01.639 --> 00:41:06.519
other or a group of us, we're all great because

714
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:09.360
we'll have new insights, and that's the beauty of knowledge.

715
00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:14.559
If we do sit down and share, we all grow,

716
00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:18.519
and as we grow, we all have a greater ability

717
00:41:20.360 --> 00:41:23.159
to create a better place. And that's the power of unity.

718
00:41:23.159 --> 00:41:25.559
And we don't have a lot of unity at the moment.

719
00:41:26.199 --> 00:41:28.519
Having said that, when you look at a lot of

720
00:41:28.519 --> 00:41:34.199
these crisis I mean, and I have been praying and

721
00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:37.199
sending my love to what's happening in Ukraine and also

722
00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:43.199
to those facing such horrible daily trauma in terms of

723
00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:46.239
the floods up your way, and I was having to

724
00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:48.559
think about that in terms of how does that fit

725
00:41:48.599 --> 00:41:54.280
in with our cultural stuff, And when I thought about

726
00:41:54.320 --> 00:41:56.480
it straight away, I thought, well, you know, in terms

727
00:41:56.519 --> 00:41:59.239
of Maslow, it's okay that we try and seek self

728
00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:01.840
actualization and all a path of contentment, which is what

729
00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:04.639
the book I've written is all about. But there are

730
00:42:04.760 --> 00:42:08.800
times when then stuff happens that's just horrible, and so

731
00:42:08.840 --> 00:42:10.840
we go back to what our basic needs, and that's

732
00:42:11.079 --> 00:42:13.840
our physiological needs. We need food, we need shelter, we

733
00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:17.119
need safety, we need water, and we need to know

734
00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:19.320
our loved ones are safe. And so for those that

735
00:42:19.400 --> 00:42:21.880
are flood stricken at the moment, they're not getting those things,

736
00:42:22.199 --> 00:42:23.800
so of course they're not going to be in a

737
00:42:23.800 --> 00:42:28.320
place where they're thinking about the longer term contentment of themselves.

738
00:42:29.159 --> 00:42:32.599
And certainly we know over in the Ukraine that's happening.

739
00:42:32.639 --> 00:42:38.039
So I was thinking about that, and yet in that crisis.

740
00:42:38.360 --> 00:42:40.880
What we see is the rest of humanity staying to

741
00:42:41.639 --> 00:42:43.800
let go of their business and share their love. We're

742
00:42:43.800 --> 00:42:46.679
seeing that there's fundraisers happening in Australia on the weekend

743
00:42:47.079 --> 00:42:51.800
for the floods. We see people on television. Yes, there's

744
00:42:51.800 --> 00:42:54.559
been criticism of the lack of government response, but people

745
00:42:55.199 --> 00:42:57.440
are wandering the streets helping each other. There are people

746
00:42:57.480 --> 00:43:00.599
getting around on boats saving lives. I saw the same

747
00:43:00.639 --> 00:43:04.280
with COVID. With COVID, there were amazing things happening where

748
00:43:04.320 --> 00:43:07.440
you kind of thought, well, I don't want COVID to

749
00:43:07.480 --> 00:43:10.280
ever come again, and I wouldn't like to see floods

750
00:43:10.280 --> 00:43:13.000
on anybody. But wow, I wouldn't it be great if

751
00:43:13.039 --> 00:43:15.559
we could be this caring for each other when there's

752
00:43:15.559 --> 00:43:20.719
no crisis. And that's the sad thing. I mean. I

753
00:43:20.840 --> 00:43:22.840
talked in the book about going through storms, and I've

754
00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:25.599
been through lots of storms in my life. I don't

755
00:43:25.639 --> 00:43:27.599
know if I've been through any his major it's what's

756
00:43:27.639 --> 00:43:30.360
happening up the North Coast. But I've had my breakdown.

757
00:43:30.519 --> 00:43:34.199
My career has ended in the public sector when I

758
00:43:34.360 --> 00:43:37.440
started to challenge the system. My brother passed away a

759
00:43:37.480 --> 00:43:39.719
couple of years ago with me by side, and I

760
00:43:39.800 --> 00:43:43.920
kissed him goodbye, and that's something that will forever scar me.

761
00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:47.000
I was there when my son served his hand almost servet,

762
00:43:47.039 --> 00:43:49.079
his hand on a band saw it was just heading

763
00:43:49.119 --> 00:43:51.880
off my skin. So all those things are horrible, and

764
00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:55.360
I wouldn't wish those storms. But in storms, once the

765
00:43:55.400 --> 00:43:58.599
storm starts to shift and we start to repair, there

766
00:43:58.719 --> 00:44:02.320
are good opportunities for learning from storms, and so I

767
00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:05.920
wouldn't wish any storms on any body. But I've also

768
00:44:06.039 --> 00:44:09.519
learned when these things are happening at a point in time,

769
00:44:09.599 --> 00:44:12.440
when we work through the grief and the anger and

770
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:15.880
the depression and we start to accept what's happening, there

771
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:21.639
are opportunities to look and learn and go what's something

772
00:44:21.679 --> 00:44:23.360
I can take out of this? So it wasn't all

773
00:44:23.400 --> 00:44:25.480
the waste. And I mean I was talking to elders

774
00:44:25.480 --> 00:44:28.400
about the floods up the North Coast on the weekend

775
00:44:28.440 --> 00:44:30.519
and they were saying, well, you need to know the

776
00:44:30.519 --> 00:44:33.119
story of the land and those big mountains up the

777
00:44:33.119 --> 00:44:36.760
back of Brisbane and tweed Heads and list more. They're

778
00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:39.199
just a big catchment of water and so traditionally the

779
00:44:39.239 --> 00:44:41.719
old people would have been down on the flats, but

780
00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:44.800
they would have known the floods were coming because they

781
00:44:44.800 --> 00:44:47.039
would have read the land and they would have disappeared

782
00:44:47.159 --> 00:44:49.000
a couple of weeks before the rain came, and they

783
00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:51.199
would have been up into the high country and it

784
00:44:51.199 --> 00:44:53.159
wouldn't have been a big deal. They would have gone, oh, well,

785
00:44:53.199 --> 00:44:56.679
there's a good flush. And so it's about listening and

786
00:44:56.800 --> 00:44:59.679
understanding the story of the land. And that doesn't take

787
00:44:59.719 --> 00:45:01.800
away the pain and suffering that people are feeling. But

788
00:45:01.840 --> 00:45:05.440
we need to be thinking about all these things, including

789
00:45:05.599 --> 00:45:09.239
I mean, the old people are saying a lot of

790
00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:12.360
the traumatic events that are happening, whether it's because mother

791
00:45:12.559 --> 00:45:15.440
it's not happy and she's not going to stop until

792
00:45:15.440 --> 00:45:20.400
we start with and so that might sound rubbish to

793
00:45:20.440 --> 00:45:23.119
some people, but our old people truly believe that, and

794
00:45:23.159 --> 00:45:26.280
I do too, and we across the world need to

795
00:45:26.320 --> 00:45:30.079
start taking seriously the warming of the planet, which is

796
00:45:30.119 --> 00:45:32.920
a novel I've just written as part of my PhD,

797
00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:37.920
and it's a really inspiring thing, but it's also a

798
00:45:37.960 --> 00:45:41.079
sad thing. But it seems to be young people who

799
00:45:41.119 --> 00:45:46.599
are protesting about global warming and leading the charge. And

800
00:45:46.679 --> 00:45:49.840
while that's older people, some are on board, some aren't

801
00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:52.599
in all of that. The question I have in terms

802
00:45:52.599 --> 00:45:55.559
of leadership, I guess is where does the truth lie

803
00:45:55.599 --> 00:45:58.079
with all that? And that goes then back to story.

804
00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:01.239
What is truth? What is the true story on only

805
00:46:01.280 --> 00:46:03.880
of these things we're facing. But having said all that,

806
00:46:03.920 --> 00:46:06.360
there are times when trauma surrounds us and grief is

807
00:46:06.440 --> 00:46:09.800
real and the pain is real, And I guess what

808
00:46:09.800 --> 00:46:12.320
what I talk about in the book is sometimes it's

809
00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:15.400
okay just not to be okay, as long as it

810
00:46:15.440 --> 00:46:18.880
doesn't stop us in the longer term from kind of

811
00:46:19.440 --> 00:46:23.079
trying to find that blue sky and getting back into

812
00:46:23.119 --> 00:46:23.639
life again.

813
00:46:24.360 --> 00:46:27.239
Paul, one last question. You mentioned earlier that you became

814
00:46:27.280 --> 00:46:29.280
friends with your counselor and you took him out Bush.

815
00:46:29.400 --> 00:46:32.159
Is this something that's available to people to be taken

816
00:46:32.280 --> 00:46:34.360
out Bush? How does one get on board with that

817
00:46:34.480 --> 00:46:36.119
kind of idea? I mean, I love the book. The

818
00:46:36.119 --> 00:46:40.199
book is a great way to engage with Indigenous culture

819
00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:42.719
and to bring that into our lives. But if somebody

820
00:46:42.760 --> 00:46:45.360
wanted to go and have a more direct experience, is

821
00:46:45.400 --> 00:46:46.719
that something that's available?

822
00:46:47.159 --> 00:46:50.000
It is? It is, And certainly start of the book,

823
00:46:50.039 --> 00:46:52.960
I'm very careful to explain that the book's only a

824
00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:56.119
capture of myself and Uncle Paul's views of the world.

825
00:46:56.320 --> 00:47:00.519
They're not meant to reflect anybody else's. They're meant to

826
00:47:00.559 --> 00:47:04.239
inspire people to want to search for that local knowledge,

827
00:47:04.280 --> 00:47:07.320
because it is important to understand there is local knowledge

828
00:47:07.320 --> 00:47:09.760
what Paul and I are sharing the big picture if

829
00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:13.280
you like, the common stories across all the different tribal

830
00:47:13.280 --> 00:47:17.920
groups across Australia that were there. But within the unity,

831
00:47:18.039 --> 00:47:20.440
there's also the diversity of thoughts. So the way the

832
00:47:20.440 --> 00:47:24.079
old people explained it is across all of Australia. Traditionally

833
00:47:24.840 --> 00:47:27.000
we cared for our place and all things in our place,

834
00:47:27.079 --> 00:47:29.920
but the way we did that locally was different through dance,

835
00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:33.880
through song, through story, through artwork, and that's really important.

836
00:47:34.920 --> 00:47:37.079
The old people are saying, we want to share this.

837
00:47:37.159 --> 00:47:41.800
And there's a beautiful quote from an old an elder

838
00:47:42.440 --> 00:47:45.079
from Central Desert that I used in my PhD. That

839
00:47:45.159 --> 00:47:48.320
he said, he said, our culture is a gift that

840
00:47:48.360 --> 00:47:50.480
we want to give to all of you. Why do

841
00:47:50.559 --> 00:47:52.440
you not want to take our gift? It's there to

842
00:47:52.480 --> 00:47:55.800
help you all And then he talks about it at

843
00:47:55.840 --> 00:47:58.559
more length, but it got me thinking, Yeah, this is

844
00:47:58.599 --> 00:48:01.199
a beautiful gift that country gives us all, and so

845
00:48:01.239 --> 00:48:04.079
it's there for all people. And certainly Uncle Paul has

846
00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:06.480
copped a bit of flat at times, saying why are

847
00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:09.159
you sharing this with non Aboriginal people, And he said,

848
00:48:09.199 --> 00:48:11.960
I'll share it with anybody that wants to learn, because knowledge,

849
00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:14.519
if not shared, is of no use to anybody. And

850
00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:17.159
there are a lot of non Abiginal people that can

851
00:48:17.199 --> 00:48:20.239
benefit from this knowledge. And if they benefit, then country benefits.

852
00:48:20.840 --> 00:48:23.400
And that goes back to the Aboriginal definition of well being.

853
00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:28.039
The Aboriginal definition of well being says that we can

854
00:48:28.079 --> 00:48:30.800
only be well when everything is well. That's all people

855
00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:35.159
in all country. And so that means for people in

856
00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:37.440
Australia to be well, Aboriginal people need to be well,

857
00:48:38.280 --> 00:48:41.199
but also non Aboriginal people need to be well. In

858
00:48:41.239 --> 00:48:45.119
some ways. Aboriginal people, even though we're in a negative

859
00:48:45.159 --> 00:48:50.000
space in terms of the socioeconomic indicators, in some ways,

860
00:48:50.039 --> 00:48:52.760
because of our cultural connection and our connection to spirit,

861
00:48:52.880 --> 00:48:54.840
many of us in a far bit of place than

862
00:48:54.840 --> 00:48:58.079
non Aboriginal Australia. So although non Ariginal people may be

863
00:48:58.239 --> 00:49:02.719
higher in a lot of those nomic indicators, spiritually there

864
00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:05.480
might be a bit of a gap there. So if

865
00:49:05.519 --> 00:49:08.400
we share, we all carry each other and we all

866
00:49:09.079 --> 00:49:12.760
become well. And certainly that's something Uncle Paul and I

867
00:49:12.840 --> 00:49:14.440
are happy to share. And there are lots of other

868
00:49:14.480 --> 00:49:17.360
resources and books, but they're also One of the beautiful

869
00:49:17.360 --> 00:49:19.960
things I'm seeing around Australia in the last twenty years

870
00:49:20.039 --> 00:49:24.079
is cultural reclamation. I'm seeing more tools with Aboriginal people,

871
00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:27.480
taking non original people and sharing them country and sharing

872
00:49:27.559 --> 00:49:31.440
story locally. I'm also seeing beautiful things on television where

873
00:49:31.440 --> 00:49:38.480
we're seeing more Averaginal faces in different screens. But also

874
00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:42.000
I'm seeing welcome the country and acknowledgments of country that

875
00:49:42.039 --> 00:49:45.719
are not tokenistic anymore, that they're quite genuine. And something

876
00:49:45.760 --> 00:49:48.760
that Uncle Paul shared with me that challenged me and

877
00:49:48.840 --> 00:49:51.880
made me think only a year ago, was he said

878
00:49:52.039 --> 00:49:56.280
back in the referendum, he said we needed a majority

879
00:49:56.280 --> 00:49:58.960
of Australians to support that, and he said the Abriginal

880
00:49:59.039 --> 00:50:01.920
population was only through percent of that time. So he

881
00:50:01.960 --> 00:50:03.960
said there are a lot of non original people voted

882
00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:08.440
for us to be citizens and to be in the constitution.

883
00:50:08.960 --> 00:50:10.400
He said there are a lot of good people that

884
00:50:10.400 --> 00:50:12.760
are willing to hold hands with us. We can't ever

885
00:50:12.840 --> 00:50:15.039
forget that, and we need to share this with them,

886
00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:20.760
and so this is all about again coming together. Original

887
00:50:20.960 --> 00:50:23.920
traditional knowledge isn't meant to say let's all go back

888
00:50:23.920 --> 00:50:26.960
to the Stone Age. It's saying here it is in

889
00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:30.280
this contemporary rule we all evolve and let's all come together,

890
00:50:31.039 --> 00:50:33.280
and you can be my friend and you don't have

891
00:50:33.320 --> 00:50:36.400
to feel like an outsider. You can actually sit at

892
00:50:36.440 --> 00:50:39.480
the fire with me as part of my family. And

893
00:50:39.519 --> 00:50:43.320
now people they say that they'll bring you in. This

894
00:50:43.400 --> 00:50:48.960
concept of extended family isn't just for original bloodlines. Throughout Australia.

895
00:50:49.400 --> 00:50:52.280
Traditionally too, when the macasms used to come down well

896
00:50:52.320 --> 00:50:55.880
before cook, they'd be taken into family, and it still happens.

897
00:50:56.239 --> 00:50:59.079
Someone can say you're now my grandson, you're now my granddaughter.

898
00:50:59.159 --> 00:51:00.719
You can come bush with me and you're now and

899
00:51:00.760 --> 00:51:04.840
my family, and that is kind of yes, symbolic, and

900
00:51:04.920 --> 00:51:08.039
it might be metaphoric, but it's also real that we

901
00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:10.400
are family and we're all together in this one place.

902
00:51:10.920 --> 00:51:13.079
So let's care for each other here here.

903
00:51:14.360 --> 00:51:16.199
Paul, thank you so much for your time today, and

904
00:51:16.239 --> 00:51:18.719
thank you for the book. It is a gift, and

905
00:51:19.360 --> 00:51:23.119
good luck with everything else that you're doing in the world.

906
00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:26.400
Thank you wonderful to share space, as I said, with

907
00:51:26.480 --> 00:51:30.280
a kindred spirit, and I'd just love to see the

908
00:51:30.320 --> 00:51:32.360
work that we're both doing. I'd love to see that

909
00:51:32.480 --> 00:51:36.639
take route and enable people to reflect in a safe

910
00:51:36.639 --> 00:51:40.800
way and to find their path and to live a

911
00:51:40.800 --> 00:51:43.280
life where they can say that they're very happy with

912
00:51:43.320 --> 00:51:45.519
their story.

913
00:51:45.880 --> 00:51:51.199
Thanks. The Dreaming Path is available right now in all bookstores,

914
00:51:51.239 --> 00:51:53.400
and if you're interested in finding out more about Paul

915
00:51:53.559 --> 00:51:57.559
and his coaching and consulting and facilitation services, you can

916
00:51:57.559 --> 00:52:01.199
contact him via his website, which is Cultural Consultancy dot

917
00:52:01.239 --> 00:52:03.760
com dot a you. Thank you so much for listening

918
00:52:03.800 --> 00:52:05.800
today and as always, I look forward to catching you

919
00:52:05.880 --> 00:52:09.480
on the next episode of Crappy to Happy

920
00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:15.079
Listener