Keeping the spark alive with Dr Nikki Goldstein

0:02 A listener production. Hey guys, you're listening to Crappy to Happy. I'm cass Dan. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist, mindfulness meditation teacher, and author of the Crappy to Happy books. In this series, we look. At all the factors that might be making you feel crappy and the tools and the techniques that will help you overcome them. In each episode, I introduce you to interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their field, and my hope is that they will help you go from crappy to happy. In today's episode, I'm talking to doctor Nicki Goldstein, who is a sexologist, relationship expert, and author. Nicki and I talked about the things that can get in the way of intimacy in your relationship and how you can get that spark back. Nicki is a no holds barred kind of girl, and this conversation definitely went places that I was not expecting. So just a heads up that some of this content is not suitable for little ears, so you might want to pop some headphones in if you've got young ones around. Here's my chat with doctor Nicki.

1:07 Doctor Nicky, let's talk about sex. I feel like there should be that little song let's. Talk about sex baby, So can we just start First of all, you are a sexologist. I understand you've got a counseling your psychology background as well. Can you just please tell our listeners what does a sexologist do? So this sexologist, sexology is a scientific study of sex, so within that you could be a sex therapist, a sex researcher. I kind of take the role as a sex educator, and I use mainstream media to introduce topics, to educate people and to empower people. So it is a little bit different because I don't have well at the moment, I don't have clients. I may do one day, but my passions are really introducing topics and subjects that I think people need to know.

1:54 Yeah, fantastic. And so from your experience and from talking to a lot of people and being out amongst it, and even from having seen clients before, what are the kinds of issues that people bring you? What are the issues people have with their sex life? Everything? But I think the most common things are that everybody wants to improve on their sex life. No one ever comes to me and says, hey, Nikki, I'm really happy with the way things are, and I don't need to talk to you. They come to me with all these questions. You know, my partner doesn't want to sex, doesn't want sex, or my sex strive is dwindling. What do I do? We've got kids, we never have time. I find things boring, I don't feel sexy. But within that, there's also this element of.

2:35 Am I normal? Because we all have these innate desires, but we're born into a society that has very strong ideas around sexuality, and a lot of that has to do with shame. We control people with shame. That's not appropriate, that's not right, and that's not inadverted commas normal. So then you get these people that go on through life and they have these innate desires. They have this upbringing that tells them what they should and should. Not be doing. This internal conflict, especially when we look at say a monogamous marriage, because somebody may have entered into that thinking, well, this is what you do. You know, this is how you raise a family, and this is how you have a relationship, and all of a sudden, they have these desires and the questions that they're asking me are different in terms of language, but underneath what they're actually always asking me, is am I normal?

3:21 This is what I desire? Or this is what I'm feeling. Oh, I'm looking at this porn and I'm thinking I want to explore this further. But I'm really scared about it because what they're worried about is maybe their partner rejecting them or the society around them rejecting them. And I imagine that it's a big issue is when one person has got particular interests or desires sexually and the person that they're committed to in a relationship doesn't has different interests or desires well. Has sexual compatibility, And it's the biggest question of you know, what happens if you're not sexually compatible? And I think it's actually unrealistic to think that you can get two people that for the rest of their lives will be sexually.

4:01 We change. I'm glad that you said that, it's one of my questions. I'm jumping the gun, But how big an issue is that if you're in a long term relationship with somebody and you're not sexually compatible for whatever reason. Maybe it's just that somebody's just got a really low sex drive and somebody's got a much high one. That's very common, right. Yes, very But I think sexual compatibility in a way is not necessarily an issue. Maybe it's just something that we need to accept that we are different and we need to find that commonality and a way to compromise. Because I take the scenario of say two people where one wants a lot of sex and the other one doesn't really want a lot of sex. Now, if we look at stereotypically a woman, that sex drive might be dwindling, and there's a lot of reasons why. Doesn't mean that she's not a sexual being. It just means that there are different pressures that women get under as they go through the stages of life and have children and the stresses associated. And say we look at a man that wants more sex, We're not going to be saying to the woman, are just getting there, you know, like, don't do something that you don't want do. We'll be saying to the guy, well, can you be more considerate of her?

5:03 But that's not a compromise because one person is wanting maybe a lot more sex, the other person isn't wanting as much. What we need to be able to be able to find is that common ground, Why does that person want a lot of sex? Often we find for men because especially men in Australia, they don't communicate as much, and the way that they receive their affection intimacy is through physical acts. It's not just about getting off, it's about connecting with their partner. It's about connecting as a couple. So they really need sex to be able to feel at one with their partner, especially if there's children involved and a woman's focus goes towards the kids. They still need to have those moments where it's just the two of them. Whereas a female partner might. Be seeing there going, oh, he just wants to get off, and I'm so sick of him poking me next to me in the bed?

5:47 What about me? What about what I want? What about the fact that I've been running around all day and I'm stressed and anxious and I just can't unwind. If we started to have a look at that scenario, the keyword is connection now doesn't have to be penetrative sex. No, It could be some form of affectionate time. It could be like what I like to call sexy time. It could be touching, affection kissing, things like that. To be able to say, well, honey, I don't know if I can really have the energy to be able to go through a full session of sex, but I really think it's important that we spend a little bit of time caressing and kissing and touching. Probably what will happen is you'll get turned on and have sex anyway, but being able to actually have a look at what is important in a relationship. Is it just a number that we have to be having per week, or is it the intent of why we should be having sex?

6:38 Yeah? Good point. I want to go back to what you started with, which is that typically women have less interest in sex than men for a lot of good reasons. Because I know this comes up with the people that I talk to that they just feel either all touched out, especially with little kids or breastfeeding, or you know, gets somebody's always demanding something of them. So can we just talk about that a bit more like what some of those you said. You know, there's a lot of good reasons why women don't necessarily always want to have sex. Can we just talk about what they are so that people can listen and can. Go Yeah, well, I actually call this the cycle of no sex Now It doesn't exist in a textbook. It's just something that I went I'm going to create the cycle of no sex, and it's an easy way to explain it. So I find the biggest killer for women is resentment. So something happens in the relationship. We might be angry that our partner hasn't helped us out enough, or we're not feeling heard, we don't feel needed and wanted.

7:36 We're holding on to something. So then the next part of the cycle is that something little that they do, you know, we're holding on to this issue. Something else, little that they do just becomes massive. And it normally starts with this conversation of you're making a big deal out of nothing, and you look at that person and you think, I'm actually not making a big deal out of nothing. You don't listen to me anymore, you don't consider me, So we start this cycle of then increased resentment. Now, when you're in that space, you're then more likely to fire off comments at the other person. So again those little things. As a woman, you respond with these daggers and it's got nothing to do with the issue that we're talking about and everything that you're holding onto underneath. Then when it comes to bedroom time, it's a matter of you know, there's a poke next to you or a little bit of a nudge, and you're thinking, why on earth would I want to spend any of my time right now touching you when you can't consider me? And with those daggers comes often aggression in return. If we're pushing someone and fighting them, and often I find we're pushing them for the attention. It's sometimes with that conflict, we're pushing them to go, okay, I want you to fire back because I want to feel like you're focusing on me and I want to feel like you're going to fight for me and make me feel needed. But what we actually get sometimes is more aggression, and they're getting angry at our saying, well, what's wrong with you? Why have you turned into this person? This isn't the woman that I married. What happens to that care free loving? And you're thinking, hang on a second.

9:03 Are very familiar and it's but it's. Very common, and we get this cycle of what I call no sex, and then when we look at the intent of sex and why we need it, we get this further disconnection because we're not focusing on each other. We're not binding as a couple. We're more pulling away. And I think it's just so much more common than we think. And the first step is actually becoming aware that that happens and actually sitting with it and going Okay, I recognize that, I recognize. That that's a cycle going on in my life. How do I then break the cycle so that that connection that I need to survive through every day and have a relationship that keeps thriving is actually something that I can work on rather than pulling further away from my partner.

9:44 I think the other thing that happens too. I mean, one thing that you touched on which I'd totally agree with is that women tend to need to feel emotionally connected before they want to have sex, whereas men feel emotionally connected by having sex. When they're inn relationship. That's what I mean in a relationship. It's a very interesting thing with female sexuality because we're so emotionally driven when we're with a partner. You know, we need certain things to feel turned on. We need you know, that loving, We need to feel needed, we need to feel wanted, we want to feel sexy. And then when you get a woman who's not in a relationship and exploring her sexuality in a way, I feel like she's more sexual than a man. You know, we have women that are reaching out to male escorts, that are entering into all sorts of fetishes and different lifestyles.

10:31 So it's quite interesting when you look at both sides and you think we can be so emotional, but we're also not limited by an ejaculation, whereas men, sexually speaking, they can only go for so long. And there is that joke about it, but it's something. When it comes to women, when it's exploring sexuality, we don't really have any limits. Even when you look at women experimenting with other women. If a guy experiments with another guy, all of a sudden, we go he's gay. In our society, as. A woman we want to experiment with another woman, it's like, oh, she's just experimenting. Yeah. True. We don't even have the same restraints of labels and boxes and categories. So you know, it's interesting when we can say yes in a relationship. When we're looking at that nuclear family of children, marriage straints of life, women's sex strivee does really suffer, I think for very obvious reasons.

11:21 But when we have a look at a woman independently in her journey to exploring sexuality, we're actually in a better position as men. And I find our sexuality changes as we. Go on with life. Yeah, we're fluid, we're not linear. We go through different stages and different cycles, whereas a man is much more linear in terms of his sexual journey. So when it comes to sexual compatibility, who's the more complex one? And if you want to talk about women and that exploring their sexuality, for example, if they're not in a relationship, they're also burdened largely by all of the you know, they're still very so much more shame and it's slutshaming and all of that sort of stuff that goes on with women if they choose to go out and have an active sex life compared to a man. Do you find that women are still fighting against that or are we bit more they are.

12:07 One hundred percent, because we still don't have a society that has the equivalent to the word slut for a man. No, we don't. So that speaks. Volumes to me, and I'm not really one for reclaiming the word slut. I think as long as we're still a society that uses it in the negative. I'm not comfortable using it in the positive, and I think we need to change our language, and it's things like slut, promiscuous, deviant. We can't define those terms. How many people do you have to have sex with to be called a slut? How many people do you have to have sex with to be called promiscuous. So there are actually terms that we just should stop using in society because it's quite negative in terms of we're either trying to control somebody with shame or we're using a label that doesn't actually have a definition. So I think for a lot of women, there is that fear of if I do that, somebody will judge me, because women are still judged and they have always been judged. But we need to challenge ourselves within those beliefs, because why should we actually care what anyone thinks about our own sexuality? Is actually having the strength to say, hey, you might call me a slut, you might call me promiscus, you might think that I'm deviant, but I don't care because I'm doing what I want.

13:17 That's consensual, that's safe, that is innately something that I desire, and I actually feel pity towards those people who do use that language, because it goes to tell me a little bit about their own internal conflict. Yeah, it's a reflection on them, isn't it. They're probably envious sitting at home going, oh, I wish someone was. Calling me a slot. So Nikki getting back to the issues that come up for couples, So resentment is one, and I would like to add to that too that what can happen not speaking about anybody in particular, is that it gets to the point where anytime the woman in this case does show some affection, it's taken as a signal that sex is on the table, like sex is on zero to one hundred. Yeah, and if you don't, if you just wanted to have a cuddle, but then every time you have a cuddle, it's like, oh.

14:08 Let's get it on. Well, then you start to become actually averse to showing any affection because I can't even cutt you without you putting the word hard word on me. So then that causes this divide. I think you need to for women, we need to actually understand men too, you know. I think in a society there's this light at the moment that is shone on a women. We're in the me too movement. Women have a voice, but we're actually not stopping to think about how men function. Now. Guys are always like little boys, and I don't mean it's not mean to diminish them, but it's a way that we can understand it. We start touching them in affection, Boom, there's that rush of blood flow. They get excited. It's like a kid on Christmas. I want to unwrap my present, So I think sometimes and.

14:50 The President does not want to be on rad exactly. The President just wants to be looked at and the bow played with and stroked a little. So you know, this is the struggle with the differences between men and women. My father has a saying, and Helay says, you know, relationships of opposite never work, and by opposite I mean opposite genders, because sometimes. We are so different. And really, when we can start to empathize with each other and have a look at how our partner works, that's where we can kind of make those compromises. And we might say, okay, if we want to show affection and we don't want him just to start ripping off our clothes, thinking that it's all go, let's explain it, and let's actually say, you know, honey, I actually foree really turned on. When you take some time touching me and just going a little bit more carefully, it really gets me going, and then I feel like I'm ready for sex. And it might take a few times to remind them of that, but I assure you, if you're actually saying to somebody this is how you can have more sex with me, they will eventually pay attention. But I think we're too scared to communicate around sex, especially when it comes to potentially telling somebody off or sending them a negative message, because we're very careful the fact that we don't want to make them feel rejected. We don't want to cause this awkwardness and a relationship. But sometimes we need to. It's just a matter of how we do it. If you're going to say to somebody, even I'm sexually bored, which is a very common thing, if you were to walk to work the same day, same way every day, you would absolutely be bored out of your mind. You'd be going past the same scenery, as much as it might be pretty. If you're holding

16:23 the hand of somebody who's really good looking, you're still going to get bought. So it's not a matter of not being attracted to each other. But we just get stuck in this right of everyday life and we do the same thing over and over again. We're also out our minds are so busy, so when it comes actually thinking about what is it that we really want to do and explore, it merely feels impossible to work out what that is. So boredom is something that's really common and I think it's just a fact of life. But able to be able to express that to someone and say, hey, han, I'm. Actually really bored with our sex life, it. Can feel so awkward because you think, oh my god, I'm about to just absolutely kill their sexual ego. But it's a conversation that has to be had in order to be able to get back to that place of well, what are things that we can do and what's a way that we can have sex where you're not feeling attacked and you're not feeling you're overwhelmed by their touches and their advances, and you are enjoying things and that sex is not just a matter of a chore like a lot of people just think, well, got to do it, got to tick it off the list, or got to have sex with my partner so they don't stray, and it then becomes something that you both want to do because you're starting to work out what it is that feels good.

17:32 That's really interesting, isn't it. Like? I think that there are a lot of people who just think. Well, I really I would rather read a good book, to be honest right now than have sex. And that's okay sometimes some nights, that's okay. Never feel guilty for that. Netflix is there for a reason. But if I din't. But if I'm not meeting this person's needs, my all female. If I'm not meeting this person's needs, they will get their needs met Elsewhere. Do people have affairs for the sex or for the emotional connection. I think when it comes to infidelity, it is such a massive subject and we have it wrong. We see infidelity with this shame, this guilt, this negativity, instead of actually stopping and trying to understand it. Because there are so many different reasons why somebody cheats. And there is that person out there that's just hypersexual and just wants to get off and gets off on the thrill of different people and something about the taboo. You know this is wrong and this is shameful and they shouldn't be doing it, so it makes it so exciting. There are people out there that actually really enjoy having a type of sex with, say an escort, that they don't want to have with their partner. There's a Madonna hook complex going on, and they see their partner as this loving, nurturing person and they want to do these really kinky, crazy things.

18:44 To an escort. There's some people out there that don't have that affection, so they're really starved of feeling needed and wanted in a relationship, and they might be going out having an affair with a co worker or again a sex worker or someone under those lines where they feel like they're being wanted. They feel like someone's showing them that sexual attention. And then you've got people who just go on with the flow of life, and they might get drunk one night and go whoopscrap, I shouldn't have done that opsy, And it does happen. It might be a circumstance where there's a lot of stuff going on at home and it's not being addressed, and someone finds themselves in a position where they get caught up. I think the problem is that we want to just jump on that bandwagon and say that person is a horrible monster without actually starting to understand what happens, because we can't ignore the statistics.

19:33 Infidelity is so common and so right, and I'm. Not saying it to scare people, but I think you actually need to be having the conversations in your relationship. What do you constitute as cheating? For some people, they would be mortified if their partner went off to a strip club. That would be cheating to them. Even if you're lying or you're deceiving somebody, people go, well, that's cheating. For other people, they are allowed to go out and flirt. They encourage it because I think, well, I want my partner to feel that they're attractive to other people, So go out, have fun, go out with the boys, or go out with the girls. Just make sure you come home with me. You get people in open relationships who have set rules and it's not a matter of having sex with everybody that walks on this earth, and then it's all just this free for all, But it might be a thing of a negotiation. You know, you're at a party and oh, yes, we can have sex with that person within our relationship, or you're allowed to have a boyfriend, or you can have a hall pass. Now if they go outside those rules, so say, if there are rules of okay, it needs to be spoken about, it needs to be agreed upon, and yes, then that can happen. Say if they're going and have sex with someone and they haven't spoken to their primary partner about it, that would be considered cheating.

20:40 Yeah, right, so that's very individual. Do you think, just on that topic, do you think that really works? It depends on the type of person that you are. I've seen it work and I've seen it go horribly wrong, But monogamy doesn't always work. No, Well, there's a whole conversation there isn't there about whether really human beings are biologically designed to be monogamous. But I think the thing is that we commit to long term relationships for social reasons. So the the institution of marriage, I think that's how I mean, we're off the topic, but that's how monogaby came about, right, It's actually the institution of marriage, which was about kind of protecting oursets and raising kids in. A family, family raising, and there was no such thing as a paternity test, so you couldn't have you couldn't have your partner.

21:25 Running as what was going on. Really exactly, it. Was a matter of I need to protect my young and I need to know what my young are. But I've had a lot of people in that space say to me, oh, it's not natural, and that really stood with me once as an example, when they're like, no. This is not natural, this is not natural. And I was thinking about it and I thought, hmm, it's not natural to wear clothes. That's a social construct. Now. If I had it my way, I'd probably be sitting on the couch watching TV, eating chocolate, drinking wine naked all day long. That's what feels natural to me. That's not how society works. I need to have a job, I need to wear clothes, I need to function in society. So for me, monogamy is about a choice. It works for me. I don't know if it's going to work for me forever, but it does right now on my life.

22:09 So for those people that choose to be non monogamous, I'm completely supportive of that, But don't tell me that you're doing it because it's natural or not natural. That's the argument that I don't like. Good point, Do it because it works for you and your partners or partner, and that's the type of lifestyle that you choose to have. Good point. What I'm not comfortable about is this debate of trying to look at bonobos that's apparently the most sexually similar animal to us, that they study a lot of sexuality patterns bonobos having a look at all their behaviors and trying to compare humans to different apes and even dolphins have sex for pleasure, and going, well, if that tribe does it like that, maybe that's got insight into how we're supposed to do it.

22:51 So much of our life. As a social construct, So why don't we actually get to the point where we start ignoring this biology argument and actually listening to what it is that's going inside a head. So, Nikki, we've covered a lot of the common issues that people face in terms of their sex life, the sexual compatibility. So where do they start with trying to improve things and have a higher quality sexual relationship. Well, I think the first thing is actually having a look at your expectations about what it is you're aiming for, you know, especially if you have small children and you're thinking, I want to get the spark back to when we first got together and we're ripping each other's clothes off. Is it realistic to think that you're going to be doing that when you've probably got two small children that are waking up during the middle of the night and there's no privacy and a woman's feeling like a milk factory.

23:39 So think the first of all is having. A look at, well, why is it that you need to have sex with your partner, what are the benefits that you both find, and making a realistic expectation within that. So it might be you know, I feel really sexy when we. Have sex together because I feel needed and wanted it, or I feel really close to you. So establishing what that goal is then I think you actually have to have a look at being aware of what's going on. Sometimes just being in that space of acknowledging, Okay, we've been in the no sex cycle again, not that that is a medical the time five years, not that that is a medical term, but I heard doctor Nicky say it, and I think that that's where we are. Sometimes being aware just. Lifts that pressure off your shoulders and you stop searching for this medical complex reason, and you just go I get it. I've been a bit angry, and because I've been angry, I've been pulling away. Then I think you've also got to have a look at what you want sexually, because that's one of the biggest problems, especially for women and for the guys too, And they're thinking, why doesn't my partner want sex anymore? I assure you most of the time it's because she's also bored.

24:40 So if you're able. To tap into exploring what you want and what makes you tick, if it feels good, you're going to be able to do it more. So it's one of those things that it might be toys, it might be a new position in the bedroom, or it might be actually addressing things that are going on outside of the bedroom. So when we say, you know, exploring what feels good, I see that as something that happens before we get to actual sex, because you might actually be stuck in a rut in your everyday life. You might be bored with the routine. You might be eating at the same restaurant because that both of you can't actually think of a new place that you've wanted to try, or you can never actually work out what movie you want to go to, because that causes effort to actually have that conversation what do you want to see?

25:23 I don't know what do you want to see? So you get stuck in this rut in everyday life and that feeds through into the bedroom. It's this headspace that you get into. So if you can find that luster for each other outside of the bedroom, it starts to ignite that spark about finding what you want to do in the bedroom. And you're not going to find one simple solution. It's not that there's going to be one product or one move or one movie that's going to do it. But being able to start that jenny together of hey, let's work out what it is that we both like. Let's work out what it is that feels good. Let's actually communicate about it. And that's the biggest thing is if. You can't talk about sex, how are you supposed to improve things? Because it's that constant communication that while you're exploring, whether it's inside outside of the bedroom, why you're becoming aware of what's been going on, you constantly need to be talking about it and talking about how you feel about sex.

26:16 Can I just throw in there though as somebody who's now been married for we've just had our seventeen year wedding anniversary being thank you being together, you know, probably closer to twenty or more so. In the early days of a relationship, it is very new and exciting and you love everything about this person, and you know, sex is great, and of course you're free, and there's no kids, and there's none of those issues that get in the way. But you know, after five years, ten years, fifteen years of living with the same person, you know them. You know, there's nothing really new and different like you know, And I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that when that newness wears off, like you can't magically take yourself back to not the.

27:01 New, I find another way to be new, because I actually think that there's something beautiful in knowing somebody intimately inside and out. Absolutely and the quality of the relationship I think deepens emotionally. But in terms of sexual spark, it's like. When you've seen somebody like they get to the toilet with the door open and they eat you know. Do you know what I mean? I got that when people go you need to keep that mystery. Like I'm one of those people that I love intimacy, So like go to the toilet with the door open and I have a shower together, Like I it doesn't actually impact my sex life. And and that's what I mean about that beautiful intimacy is that I think it's great that when you can pull down those those bounds and you can actually be very open with somebody when you have a look at exploring sexually. Then I mean, let's just take We're on a podcast, so we can be open.

27:49 Let's take the act of anal sex. Oh gosh, we are going to go there that we like. To go there. Okay. Now, a lot of people are very interested in exploring anal sex. One of the biggest fear is what they might discover when they explore anal sex in terms of substances. So, if you're on a relationship where the intimacy is there, you've been through childbirth together, you've seen everything. Would it matter? Would it really matter? Versus when you're dating and you're thinking, you would just be mortified if you were exploring that particular sexual act and there was some little specs that you didn't want the other person to find, you would just die inside and I know so many women that have like just they have these horror stories for me, and they said, oh, I just got my clothes on and got an over and got out of there, Whereas if you've been together fifteen twenty years, you'd be.

28:38 Like, there's nothing gross anymore, what happened? So there is that level of when you're looking at sexual exploration. I think that is a really great thing because you can become more honest with each other. But really it takes so much effort to be creative and the newness has to be in how you have sex. Now. One of the problems is that we don't have access to a lot of sex information. When we start to google search, we find porn right and pawn. Sometimes there's porn out there that's very positive for women, but there's a lot of porn out there that we look at and we go, uh, how the hell do they actually do that? So we actually need more tools to be able to say to people that are exactly in the position that you're explaining to me, Okay, here's all the options available.

29:19 For you, what is it that you want to explore? Because it's that creative thinking to think, Okay, if I can't have a new partner, because even if you were to have a new partner, you would end up in the same fate. Oh exactly same situation, and it might be thrilling and good first off, Like if you were just say, could open up your relationship and say, okay, honey, god have sex with somebody else, the first few times, you're like, oh, you'd be like a kid in a candy store, but you'd find yourself in the same cycle. So really, what it's about is exploring something that's new between the two of you. And unfortunately, that's not something that's going to be the same for every different person. And that's what I wish I could just package up and give to everybody. But part of being able to ignite that spark is really tapping into what excites you and what excites your partner. Now, if we throw back in these themes of am I normal and shame with guils? Sorry, shame with sex, this is where it becomes complex, because you might be exploring sexuality with your partner after seventeen years according to the bounds of what you think is normal.

30:21 Because if you really listen to what you want and you really listen to what excites you sorry, what excites you. It might be a bit scary, It might be a bit confronting, it might be a bit different. You might be worried that your partner might reject you for it or not be on board with it. And that's what we're really sure my partner anything I want. To test out that theory. I don't think that would ever be a potential barrier. You know, there might be something that even confronts you or scares you, and you think, or if this is what I find sexually interesting, how do I incorporate that into my relationship? And this is the problem is that we need to see moms and dads that have been together for seventeen years. As sexual beings. Yeah, we humor and. We normalize the fact that you just don't have sex anymore.

31:03 You have sex out of a chore or its resentment. And I think that's a problem in itself because as our communities and as our friendship groups, we should actually be supporting each other and sharing stories and say, hey, we did this, or or we went down to the local sex shop, ul I picked him up at a bar and thought he was a stranger, or we went and watched porn together. You know, we should actually be swapping those stories, not in a matter to embarrass each other or wear the label of being the sex person. You know, there's always that person in the group that just wants to talk about their sex life. But it's more about sharing to actually give that permission and give each other ideas and say, if you have been in a relationship for seventeen twenty twenty five years, you still have the right to be kinky. And it's why I don't even like the term couple friendly. Like you hear a lot the term like in porn, couple friendly porn, and its actually a porn star that said to me one day.

31:51 Why can't couples be kinky? Why do we soften a couple, especially a married couple. And it's like, well, we don't want to confront you too much, so we'll take out the anal and we'll take out the triple gang bang, and we'll just give you a man and a woman that's intimate. And it's like, well, hang on, what is that saying about how we see this union of marriage and how we see a long term relationship. Why can't it be spicy? Why can't it be kinky? I think our attitudes that surround couples have a lot to answer for as to what we're actually doing with those attitudes for the downfall of sex in a bedroom. So, Nikki, I imagine that you know, a lot of this stuff is probably, you know, a bit confronting or a bit overwhelming for a lot of people. You know, So where where do the people start in terms of like having some of these conversations like the what's the starting point?

32:38 I always think using a catalyst is a really good one because if out of the blue, so you're driving in the car one afternoon and you say to your partner want to talk to you about our sex life, and you could nearly probably feel it, and someone's like, go, oh god, they're not happy. Oh god, what are they going to throw at me? So sometimes when you're able to say it might be an article, it might be this podcast who knows, Hey, I was listening to, I was reading too, I was watching this thing. I'd be really interested to get your thoughts on it, or I'd love you to have a look and see what you think. Being able to take it outside the realms of the relationship and kind of put it on the exterior and say hey, I want to introduce you. It's kind of even the pre warning of what you're going to talk about, like, let's talk about this. It's a less confronting way because people feel so confronted when you talk about sex because automatically we all go into that space of I'm not good enough, they're not satisfied, they're going to leave me, you know, Oh are they seeing somebody else if they're not happy in the bedroom. And I think we leave it too late because we do leave it often to that point where it's really in the red zone, and then we feel desperate and we're bored, and the conversations do get really awkward. So if you can find that catalyst and then be abing to extend from that and.

33:44 Say, well, you know, I just think that maybe we could. Explore a little bit more in our sexuality. I think awareness and we've spoken about this before, but actually flagging that is a really big thing. If you're able to say to you other, your partner, I actually think that we've been stuck in this cycle or I feel like we're just not the people that we used to be sexually. That's often a really good place to start because it may actually tap into the other person that will go, yeah, I get that, instead of pushing this onto someone else and saying you're not giving me orgasms, which is something women do really badly because it's no one's responsibility. It's our responsibility, and we should be experiencing them, not receiving them.

34:26 But if we're able to open up the conversation of recognizing what's going on instead of blaming someone, that's where we're going to get someone else more on board. The worst thing that you can ever do is dump it on somebody else and walk away. It's your problem, you fix it. I'm off because you actually need to leave somebody with this idea that there's something to work on. I always call it the sandwich formula. You know, it's like the bread you start off with. You know, I really love you, honey, and I'm really attracted to but. What's the meaning? And there's this thing that I want to work on? Right, But don't worry, I still find you, you know, the most amazing person in the world. I love this relationship. Oh and by the way, I have found some resources that we could you know, that we could investigate to if you can leave someone with hope that there is something to work on. So it might be an exercise.

35:12 It might be saying, hey, how about we have a date night. The in laws can take care of the children. Let's go on a romantic picnic where no one around us can actually hear us talking about our sex life. That's a problem with a restaurant everyone next to you. You're like, I'm trying to talk about intimate details and the person next to me is eavesdropping, you know, having a moment for the two of you to then say, let's actually talk about sex, not pushing them within that first conversation of we need to talk about everything that's going on wrong with our sex life. It's more about introducing what's happening and then putting a later date of let's take some time to think about it, come back and start having those conversations around what do we want to explore, what do you think is going on? Where do you think we've got stuck? Are there things that you would like in the bedroom that I'm not giving you too much? Which at once is way too overwhelming.

36:02 So you have to start small, but you have to engage the other person. I would actually even say that I would go back a step before that, even, like if you're going to start having that conversation, I think, and I think this would be the case for many women, Let's just talk about how we can reconnect emotionally, Like, let's talk about how we can actually spend some quality time together and if there has been years of build up of resentment or boredom or whatever, like, let's just start to get to know each other again a bit as a couple before we even have the sex conversation. I think for a lot of women, if there was more of that emotional connection and just enjoying each other's company and laughing together, remembering what you liked about them, I loved about them in the beginning, which is still all there. I think for a lot of women, that would naturally flow into being more open.

36:49 But whatever's going on to sex, it's. Got to go back to eventually, you know, but because it's got to be about the sex. But I'm thinking, like I'm putting myself in a guy's physician here, and I'm thinking, if my partners to me, I want to get back to you know, laughing and all that, and I'd be like, and about the sexy, but you know, it comes back to and I think this is a problem, is that actually having looking at the importance of sex and that women should want sex just as much as men because it is a way that we connect not only with ourselves but with our partner, and it makes us feel good and it helps us get to sleep, and it makes us feel sexy, and it produces all these yummy, great hormones and our bodies. So first of all, it is about looking at the emotional but linking it into I need to feel wanted and needed, I need to feel hurt, I need to feel happy in order to be able to take the connection to the next level. Because connection is not just one thing. It's emotional and it's also physical, and I think the combination of those two things is beautiful and we want to see it in the romantic context, like we look at connection and we look at physical and intimate and all those things. Even if you were having a one night stand, you still crave a connection with that person. It's just a connection that doesn't maybe go past that night or a few weeks. It actual even recognizing that great sex is actually about having an emotional and a physical connection and not being confused about what that means in a relationship is easier for us because we're looking at that long term. When we're having casual sex, it gets confusing for us because we think, can we connect and then disconnect and connect and then disconnect. But

38:20 if we have a look at what good sex is, even if you ask a porn start and then we keep going back to porn. But it is a fascinating thing when you have a look at the average couple versus the porn star. I've asked a lot of porn stars, what's the difference, like couples that are both in the industry, what's the difference between your relationship on screen? And some of them do work together and at. Home, and all the time I will have people say to me, the type of sex that we have at home would look boring. And it's interesting that we have a society that when we talk about how to spice things up, we have couples that look at porn and use that as this level of something they need to achieve. They think we need to be having that type of sex for it to be exciting. Now the people that are having that type of sex on screen.

39:03 Are not having that sex. Not having that sex they're having the sex that you're having, which is And people have said to me missionary position, because I said, porn is all about camera angles. You've got to do all these fancy things to be able to get a camera in there. And this one couple said to me, we really just like missionary because we're face to face, our bodies are on each other. And that's when they said the word it would look boring. It's not boring to them because they can have whatever type of sex that they want. But the sex that they choose to have is the sex that we're looking at as not good enough. Isn't that The problem though, with the porn, the whole porn industry, is the expectations that sets for people. I think, you know, people use it as a I don't know, inspirations, buys things up, get turned on, but I think there are some problems with the level of expectation that it sets for people, especially young people.

39:53 Well, I think the problem is with porn is that it's the intention of porn is not for an instructional DVD. And that's the problem is that because we don't have the conversations around porn, we see it as something that we should emulate, which is not the intent of whites there. The intent is just for entertainment, sexy entertainment. It's the same way as if you go to the movies. We shouldn't be looking at a car chase scene from The Fast and the Furious. And thinking, oh, yeah, that's what I'm going to drive my car. It's the same thing when we look at porn. We shouldn't actually be looking at porn and going, oh, is that what I should be doing. So when we have this lack of sex education and this information, we don't have these conversations around the intentions of porn, we then get this recipe of looking at porn and thinking that's what we should be doing. Whereas if you then go to the porn industry and ask them why they're creating films and clips because people find it exciting and they find it sexy entertainment. They get off on it, and it shouldn't be something that we look at and triumulate.

40:48 And that's the problem in itself is that for a lot of couples who do want to use porn to spice up their relationship, it's sexy entertainment if it feels good and you get a tingle. Stop there in terms of stop your thinking there. It's just something that you look at and you go, oh, that's a bit exciting. I've got a bit of a tingle in my pants. I feel that quite erotic. It doesn't mean that you necessarily want to do it. It doesn't mean that you have to do it or have to go through with that. That's this area of fantasy in our brain that we can't make sense of. You know. We see things that turn us on, we read things, we hear things, and sometimes we get very confused by it because we go hang on, that doesn't fit in with the idea of normal in my head. But when it becomes fantasy, and porn is fantasy, it's something we tap into, we look at, we put ourselves in those positions.

41:35 That's where it has to stay. For some people it doesn't, but that's where we have to accept that. That's where porn is great because we can flick something on, have a look, and if we can see it in the right context, then it can be something that is an aid in the bedroom. The danger is when we look at it and we feel inferior because that's what we think that we should be doing nikki. If a person is in a position where they're starting to open up this conversation, trying to move things in a different direction, and they're just hitting a brick wall, like the partner's not prepared to engage in that conversation, Like where did they go from there? Well, I think first of all, you need to actually have a look at the tactics that you're using to have this conversation. Ask yourself if you're being too confrontational, Are you pressuring that person too much? It might be the way that you're trying to talk to them about sex, But also if they're really stuck, sometimes it might signify that there's something else going on. Should you be talking about sex or is there something deeper that they're holding on to? Is there issues, has there been past trauma, Is there something to do with their sex life that they're very uncomfortable with, or is there something going on in their life that they're really focused and holding on to that's stopping them from having that conversation. But I think the biggest thing is if you do get stuck, don't be scared to seek help, because I think, especially as an Australian society, we seem to have a bit of an issue to putting up a hands and going I'd like some therapy now, please, Because we see it as a point merely a failure, like if we can't get this right and we need help, then we must be doing it wrong or it must be so shameful because everyone else seems to be doing it right on Instagram.

43:06 You know, it's this projection of perfection that we're stuck in. But when you speak to people, a lot of people do access therapy, and I see therapy is like facial for the brain. And in this context, we're not taught how to be in a relationship. Our role modeling comes from the society that we live in and often our parents, and we're living in. A different age. Relationships today are not the relationships that our parents had. So if no one is teaching us how to do it, how do we expect to get it right? So that's why I feel like sometimes it's a maintenance. And if you are feeling that you're struggling a bit, don't be scared to put up and ask for help. I mean, even as an expert, I still need help because I can't take my head off my own shoulders and look externally internally into my life. But I get that it can be a real humbling experience to be able to say to somebody, I need you to help me out with this. We need some information, we need some advice, we need another person active. But the problem is going to be is sometimes getting that other person to agree to do it.

44:06 I think that's a really good point. I think, especially with something like sex, where there can be so much shame around that that trying to have a conversation about it or expressing that you're not happy about it like it can really shut people down. So being able to have a third person very like any you know, I'm a psychologist, of course, I. Absolutely good fans of therapy. But you know, to have an outside person, completely impartial but non judgmental, who can hear both perspectives in a couple's relationship and offer a different point of view, I think that can really help break down some of those walls that get built. It's just a matter of being able to give each other permission that it's okay to seek help around your sex life. Doesn't mean that you've failed if you're not flying sexually, because I can tell you as a sexologist that most people are not, and take that as a piece of information to make yourself feel better. That all of us are in the same boat or a version of the same boat, So don't be shameful that you're not getting it right and everyone else is. I think there is such strength in being able to say we could be doing better, and we do need help, but actually recognizing what you want to do in terms of doing better. It's not going to go back to when you first met and it's the shiny new toy and you're ripping each other's clothes off, but looking at the benefits of sex and a relationship and what they can actually do for you as an individual but a couple, working out your realistic goals and then maybe getting some help to achieve those.

45:33 Doctor Nicki Goldstein, thank you so much for your wisdom. We went a few places I wasn't sure we were going to go. We can do that on a podcast, but. I really really appreciate it. There was something there that I think will be really helpful for everybody. And I am really thankful to you for normalizing a lot of these problems for us and to give us some really helpful tips about finding a way forward. Thank you everybody, good luck. Well that was a conversation I was not expecting to have. But if you would like to hear more of doctor Nicky's advice, she has her own podcast to hear on the podcast one Australian network called Sex and Life, and her website is doctor Nicki dot com dot au. We love hearing from you, so if you love this show, please give it a rating and a review on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts, or get in touch with me personally hello at.

46:29 Castdone dot com. Also, if you're interested in the crap at a Happy book, which I've just released, It's available for order and the link is in the show notes, or you can come to my website cast done dot com. In the next episode, I'm talking to Ben Angel, who's a best selling author on peak performance, and we talked about how you can biohack your way to health. Crappy to Happy is presented by cast Done, produced by Davis Lenski, Audio production by Darcy Thompson. Listener