Oct. 30, 2024

Let's Talk about Grief with Imogen Carn

Let's Talk about Grief with Imogen Carn
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Let's Talk about Grief with Imogen Carn
Let's Talk about Grief with Imogen Carn
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Season 13 Personal Growth & Healing

Imogen shares her experience of losing her mum in tragic circumstances, and the profound impact it had on her, and how co-creating the 'Good Mourning' podcast and community with her friend, Sally Douglas quite literally saved her life. In this conversation, Imogen shares what she has learned about grief from her own experience, including all the things no-one tells you, and how to support someone who has lost someone they love.Find out more about Imogen, Sal and Good Mourning:www.goodmourning.com.auThe breathwork healer Imogen mentioned, Rebecca JaxGet a month's free trial of the Pause Breathwork appConnect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
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Transcript
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Just a heads up that this conversation does touch on suicide,

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so if that is not something you're up for today,

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then you might want to give this one a miss.

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This is Crappita Happy and I am your host, Cas S. Dunn.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist. I'm mindfulness meditation teacher

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and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In

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this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent

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people who are experts in their field and who have

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something of value to share that will help you feel

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less crappy and more happy. Imogen Kahan lost her mother

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in the most tragic circumstances in February of twenty twenty.

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Following her mum's death, Imagen met up with another young

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woman called Sally Douglas, who was grieving her own mum's death,

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and they became fast friends. Shortly after they met, these

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two young women, in the thick of their own grief,

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struggling to make sense of their respective losses and the

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isolation that they felt, and at the height of COVID lockdowns,

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decided to team up to start a podcast offering support

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to others who had lost someone they loved. Now five

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years later, the good Morning podcast has had over a

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million downloads. Sal and Im have published a book, and

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together they've built a thriving online community, providing a safe

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space where people who are grieving all kinds of loss

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can find support and understanding. In this episode, Im shares

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with me the things that most surprised her about grief,

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the impact that her mum's death had on her other relationships,

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the complexity of dealing with traumatic grief, and the limitations

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of traditional therapy to help her process what she was experiencing.

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Despite the heavy topic, I can assure you this is

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such a worthwhile and engaging conversation, and I truly hope

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that you will share it with anyone you know who

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is either grieving now or who has the potential to

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one day lose someone they love. In other words, everyone,

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please share this conversation with everyone you know. Imagen, welcome

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to the Crappy to have your podcast.

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Thanks for having me, Cass, It's good to be here, Imogen.

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You and your friend Sal, who unfortunately couldn't be here

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for this conversation together, you are the co hosts of

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the good Morning Podcast. You have now co authored the

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Good Morning Book. You both lost your mum's quite suddenly

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and unexpectedly a few years ago, and like, that's obviously

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a devastating thing to go through. But for listeners who

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are not familiar with the story, are you able to

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just give us a brief intro into the circumstances around

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how you and Sal met and the bond that you formed.

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Yeah, of course, So Sal and I didn't actually know

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each other prior to our mom's dying. So, like you mentioned,

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we both lost our mom's suddenly and it was only

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months apart as well. So Sal's mom, Rose died from

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something called sou dep which is sudden and unexpected death

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in epilepsy, and her mom was in the early sixties.

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Sal was in her early thirties at the time, and

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her mom was living on the other side of the

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world too, so it was a huge, huge shock for her,

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and she had to do a whole lot of dead

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men we call it, orly looking after the early estate

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and the administrative tasks and everything. So there was a

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lot on her plate and she was in huge shock

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for quite some time. And my mom only a few

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months after Sal's mom died by suicide, and she had

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never experienced any previous mental health issues, and it was

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completely out of the blue and very shocking and the

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last person I could have ever imagined doing something like that.

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And I had a nine month old baby at the time,

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so I was a new mom myself, and I relied

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quite heavily on her for support, and so losing her

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during that time was very challenging.

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And so yeah, and that was right at the start

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of COVID two, wasn't it. So you lost your mom

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in the February and then Lockdown's all started in March.

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It was pretty much straightway, you know, it was like, Bang,

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I've lost mom, and then the whole world is just

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shutting down. And I don't know whether that was a

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positive thing or not. Like I look back now and

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I'm like, you know that, you know that feeling of

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when somebody dies and that you're very close with and

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you cannot grasp how the world around you keep spinning. Well,

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the world stopped spinning for me, and so I kind

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of felt like everything you know, came to a standstill

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and everything was shutting down and life wasn't as we

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knew it, and I kind of felt like I was

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going through that with my mom dying so in a sense,

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I did feel like I was able to kind of

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hide myself away in a cocoon in our lockdowns and

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just grieve.

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And so you and Salmat at a support group Ryan.

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We did. So we were both desperately searching online for

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some extra support because we learned the hard way that

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grief is incredibly lonely and you're not prepared for it.

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Like we both hadn't really given grief much of a thought,

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and then we fell into this new world that we

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were suddenly trying to navigate and really struggling. We don't

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really get taught about grief and we don't really as

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a society even talk about it, so we had no idea,

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you know, what was happening to us. And so yeah,

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we were searching online for support and we both found

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a Facebook group which was through Motherless Daughters Australia, so

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they had a peer support Facebook group online and so

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we'd both become members of that. And then one of

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the members of the group had arranged a meetup in

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Sydney and it was obviously Pete Covid, so there was

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a restriction on how many people could go, so there

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were only ten women that were able to attend this event,

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and Sal and I were two of those women, and

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there were many times prior to that that I was

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going to back out and not go. I just felt like,

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I've got family and friends friends around me, you know,

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that are supportive, Like I don't need this, Like it's

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really out of my comfort zone attending a support group.

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But I felt a real pool to go, and Sal

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felt the same, and without sounding to we both really

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believe that our moms were drawing us together to help

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each other through it.

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Yeah. Yeah, I was going to ask you what kind

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of led you to a support group in as much

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as like, what did you feel was missing from the

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support you were getting from the people in your life.

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I think with grief, it's hard when you're all grieving

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the same per you know, everyone reacts to grief so

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differently and is grieving in their own unique way. And

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so I found it, you know, difficult at times to

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lean on family members who were also grieving or friends

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who were also grieving my mum. So yeah, I feel

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like that did make it that little bit extra kind

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of isolating and lonely when I just felt like I

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didn't want to burden them with my grief because they're

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grieving as well. And you know, there's different grieving styles too,

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which I'm sure you're aware of, Cass. But I'm very

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much like an intuitive grievers, So I'm very emotional and

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I wanted to talk about my loss all the time,

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whereas some of my family members didn't grieve that way

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and didn't really want to talk about the loss all

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the time. And so, yeah, I was broadening my support

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network by hopefully connecting with someone else who understood what

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I was going through but was outside of my you know,

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usual support circle. And that's what led me to, yeah,

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seek some extra support.

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And from that point, I mean, obviously you and Cell

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really bonded through that shared experience. What led you, I'm

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curious to know then, what led you to creating the podcast.

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It was almost like it was just happening to us.

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We were sitting at dy Beach one day, just talking

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about like how lonely grief is and all the physical

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symptoms and the brain fog and the anxiety and the

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exhaustion and all those things that we don't get taught about,

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and we're saying to each other, like, if we felt

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lonely and we had support, imagine how many other people

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out there that are feeling the same. And we had

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a little conversation about, well, what could we do to

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maybe help change that. We both felt like we had

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a fire in our bellies to help other people, and

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we Yeah, we just decided, let's do a podcast. We

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love talking and we'd meet up and talk for hours

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about grief. So it just felt like a no brainer,

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and so we launched the podcast not long after we met.

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So we met, I'd say in maybe, so I was

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about six months ufter month, I said, fevery march Abel

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made you July. So about July we met, and September

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of twenty twenty, we had launched Wow, Good Morning, so

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straight in all guns blazing. Yeah.

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Do you feel like that was a really important part

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of your own healing process too, doing that together and

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kind of channeling that pain into something with purpose.

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Absolutely. I share my story in detail on our podcast,

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but it took a long time for me to be

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able to even talk about my story. But for me personally,

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like starting Good Morning, I would say it saved my life.

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There was a lot of darkness in my grief and

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it was a very complex time for me. So my

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Mum's suicide had so many layers and and so what

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had happened was her partner of twenty years used to

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be her psychologist, and we found out after mum died

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that she had groomed my mom into a relationship and

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fabricated an entire family that didn't exist and said that

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all of her family had died in a car accident

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so that my mom would leave her partner and end

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up in a relationship with her. And they were together

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for about twenty years, and then we started uncovering some

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of these fabrications and then unfortunately that is what led

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to my mom taking her life. So I had this

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really dark, oh my heart of my grief, Yeah, that

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I was dealing with. And then there was Good Morning,

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which was so light and I could channel all of

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my energy and you know, even build a legacy for

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our moms as well through that. So, yeah, meeting sal

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and started Good Morning definitely helped me and just made

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me have a focus and find a purpose in all

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of this, because that was really important for me.

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Yeah, there's a couple of things you've mentioned, Imagent, which

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is you mentioned that you're an intuitive griever and other

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people don't grieve that way. Now, these these terms are

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not terms that I'd necessarily heard before. Can you explain

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the listeners the difference between the intuitive griever and I

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think the other is the instrumental yes griever.

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Yes, So these two grieving styles are in our book,

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and so we love them because Sally and I were

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both grieving the same loss, but we found ourselves grieving

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very differently, and we just these grieving styles spoke to us.

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And so they were coined by two researchers, Kenneth Doker

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and Terry Martin. And so the idea is it's a spectrum,

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so you're not really one or the other. You can

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kind of be in a blend of both. But yeah,

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I was very much sitting on the end of being

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an instrumental griever, which is somebody who really feels, you know,

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their emotions and what's to talk about their grief and

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that's their way of processing. But when it came to

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anything practical, I was completely useless, Like I couldn't do

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anything to help with the funeral planning or ringing around

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and letting people know and things like that. And then

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there's the instrumental griev where Sal was sitting very much

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back then, in those early days, and the instrumental griever

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is better at, you know, doing those practical tasks, and

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you know, finds it helpful for them in their grief

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to be doing things. Even she Sal would talk about

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her mum, but it would be in a more kind

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of practical way. And she has this joke that she

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was like grieving Vira to do list and like planning

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all the funeral Vira to do list, which I think

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is hilarious. So yeah, just very very different. And you know,

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over the years, I've kind of leaned into my instrumental

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grief a little bit more and Sal's explored her intuitive grief.

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But yeah, we're very much identified on either end of

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the spectrum in those early days, for sure.

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I think that's so helpful to know and for people

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to understand. The other thing that you mentioned, sort of

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on the same lines, you said, you know, Sel had

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this all this dead men to deal with and had

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to go across the other side of the world and

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look after, you know, sort out her mum's estate and stuff.

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I guess you're right, we don't really talk about grief.

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We often don't think about grief, especially when we're younger.

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Doesn't really occur to us. That's something way off in

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the distance, and we don't like to think about it,

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apart from knowing that obviously somebody dying is going to

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be terrible and sad. What surprised you about the grieving

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process once you're experiencing it for yourself?

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Hands down, how physical grief is. That was the most

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shocking part. Like the exhaustion was like full body can't

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get out of bed, no matter how much sleep you have,

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You're still exhausted. And that's really challenging. And I think

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for people that are having to go back to work,

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you know, a few days after their loss, when they're

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trying to still process and wrap their head around it,

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and also dealing with all the physical symptoms of grief,

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which nobody warns you about, is really really hard. And yeah,

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so doing the podcast and writing the book, like we've

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learnt so much about all the different ways that grief

248
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can impact you. But yeah, we kept hearing time and

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time again within our community as well, like everyone's struggling

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with what's called grief brain, and so we wanted to

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kind of find out what was happening to our brain,

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Like on a neurological level, like why are we feeling

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this way? I remember not being able to like string

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a sentence together. I forget like basic tasks like I

255
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just my brain had turned to marsh and we interviewed

256
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a world renowned neurologist called doctor Lisa Shulman, and she

257
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was incredible. So she explained to us, so her husband

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died from cancer and disorryation became a big issue for

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her after her loss, and so her research shows that

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when you experience a significant loss, it's like an emotional

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injury to your brain, and your brain can actually rewire itself.

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So we're going through all of these physical changes on

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top of trying to deal with our loss and process

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that and the exhaustion and all the admin tasks and everything.

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So there's a lot of physical changes happening, and then

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there's you know, just the emotional stress of grief as well,

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Like stress can have a huge impact on the body

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and your nervous system. I had no idea about our

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nervous systems prior to you know, my mum dying, and

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now I'm like, I'm fascinated by the nervous system and

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how we can store trauma and the cells and the

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fashion of our body. It's fascinating.

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Mm hmm, it is fascinating. I just had an interview

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on the show a couple of weeks ago on that

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exact topic. So because it is so interesting, and I

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think everybody's really wising up to the role of the

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nervous system. It's so important. And you had a nine

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month old baby at the time your mom died, so

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that's just another added complication, isn't it, Like there's no

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rest for a new mum.

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No rest. She's five and a half now, and yeah,

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so back when she was nine months, I mean, she

283
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wasn't even walking when this happened. She hadn't really said

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her first word, she hadn't even had a first birthday.

285
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Like it was just it's meant to be the most

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joyous time of your life. And I felt like I

287
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was living in hell, Like it's the only way I

288
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can describe it. And I'd wake up and it would

289
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feel like my reality was a nightmare. And this is

290
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the best way I can describe it. Like you know

291
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when you have a bad dream and you wake up

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and you get that relief, you're like, oh, it was

293
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just a bad dream. But I was waking up and

294
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my life was the bad dream. And in some ways

295
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having her made my grief harder because I couldn't just

296
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collapse on the full and do nothing all day. But

297
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on that same note, she also got me out of

298
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bed and I had to survive. Like I don't actually

299
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know if I would have got through it without her,

300
00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:17.359
to be completely honest, like I think for a lot

301
00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:22.559
of suicide lost survivors, experiencing suicidal ideation is very common,

302
00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:25.440
and that's something that I did experience, and I had

303
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lost all hope for the future. I couldn't see any

304
00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:32.640
way out of the darkness that I was in, but

305
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I knew I had to keep going for her, and

306
00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:39.839
we interviewed I'm not sure you're familiar with her, but

307
00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:43.519
doctor Edith Eager, she's one of the few remaining Holocaust survivors.

308
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You know her, Yeah, she's incredible, and so we interviewed

309
00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:50.759
her for our podcast. And because I remember coming across

310
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one of her episodes with doctor Rang and Chatatejy and

311
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listening to it and being so inspired and thinking, Wow,

312
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if this woman can go through what she's gone through,

313
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I can too, And that really helped me pull myself

314
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out of it and you know, find a little bit

315
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of perspective as well. But something that she shared a

316
00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:11.880
bit of wisdom that I really held on to, was,

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in those early days after a really traumatic experience, you're

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not living for yourself. You have to find someone or

319
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something outside of yourself to live for. And I felt

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like I really did that with my daughter and with

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00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:28.440
good Morning, just getting up each day for her, not

322
00:18:28.519 --> 00:18:32.759
for myself. And then eventually, you know, the light does

323
00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:35.480
start to come back in and even when you can't

324
00:18:35.720 --> 00:18:37.240
see any way that it's going to.

325
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Imagen. How did your mum's death impact your relationships with

326
00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:50.119
other family and friends.

327
00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:54.200
It's a great question, Cass, and I think it's a

328
00:18:54.200 --> 00:18:56.519
topic that we really should touch on as just how

329
00:18:57.400 --> 00:19:03.279
grief and loss can impact families and dynamics. And I

330
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think in the early days it really brought us all

331
00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:10.599
really closer together because we're kind of like, well, we've

332
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got each other, we need to get through this. And

333
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then everything kind of blew apart after that, and yeah,

334
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I feel like I've yeah, I feel like I've lost

335
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lots of relationships after I'm dying. So you're not just

336
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dealing with the death loss, you're dealing with lots of

337
00:19:27.720 --> 00:19:30.640
secondary losses as well on top of that. So, yeah,

338
00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:34.920
relations relationships with people that break away or fall apart

339
00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:38.640
after grief, it's so so common. And friendships as well,

340
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Like I've lost friends, there were friends who I expected

341
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to be there for me who didn't show up. Yeah,

342
00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:47.319
it's a real mind field. But we know in our

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community like grief can impact friendships so much, and I

344
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guess that just makes people feel a little bit more

345
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lonely and isolated as well.

346
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When you say friendships, just all relationships they fall off way,

347
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like for what reason, Just conflict in how people grieving,

348
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or just people not showing up, Like you said, like

349
00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:09.000
what causes that break?

350
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I think it can be a mixture of things, but

351
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definitely people not showing up. And then I also think

352
00:20:14.519 --> 00:20:18.160
the expectations that we put on people, and when those

353
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expectations aren't met, you know, we can be really hurt

354
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and then that can damage relationships. So there's a whole

355
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mix of things going on. But I think what we've

356
00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:32.599
found through Good Morning is just how important connection and

357
00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:36.359
community is when you're grieving. So we found so much

358
00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:40.839
confident solace with the grief community, and obviously Salini meeting

359
00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:43.680
and we were both grieving and we just understood. And

360
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I think grief is one of those things like unless

361
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you've been through it, it's so difficult to understand the

362
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magnitude of it. And so that's why I think sometimes

363
00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:55.079
people can't show up for you in the ways that

364
00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:59.359
you expect them to, because, yeah, unless you've been through it,

365
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you just you just don't know, you don't get it.

366
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And I was that person once. I had people that

367
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had lost someone in their lives, and I probably did

368
00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:09.359
and said all of the wrong things and didn't show

369
00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:11.920
up for them in the ways that I definitely would

370
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now with that lived experience. Yeah, it can just really

371
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change you as well as a person.

372
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Death is a really scary topic for people. And I

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think you know, as you know, as you just said,

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then most of us we don't know what to say.

375
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We don't want to say the wrong thing. It's a

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thing you kind of want to avoid. And so I

377
00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:39.440
can completely understand. I'm not that it makes it right

378
00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:41.759
or justifies it, but why people kind of stay away,

379
00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:45.240
but having been through it now yourself, or if somebody's

380
00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:48.480
listening and they've got a friend who's lost somebody, for example,

381
00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:51.160
or they're wanting to know the best way to support

382
00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:53.160
somebody through grief, Like, what are the things that people

383
00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:56.279
should be doing? What would have been helpful for you?

384
00:21:57.079 --> 00:22:01.200
I think first and foremost people should acknowledge the loss.

385
00:22:02.359 --> 00:22:05.759
And I think another thing that's helpful is to realize

386
00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:09.400
that death is something that we can't fix and no

387
00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:14.240
amount of platitudes or you know, throwaway lines are going

388
00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:19.240
to bring our person back. So what we need is

389
00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:23.680
for people to sit and listen and just be comfortable

390
00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:27.359
with witnessing our pain, which I don't think we're very

391
00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:32.680
good at. And yeah, I think if you can avoid platitudes,

392
00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:35.880
it's a great start. Like and for example, that would

393
00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:39.279
look like the loved one wouldn't want you to be sad,

394
00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:42.240
or they've gone to a better place or things like that,

395
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:46.039
which they are well meaning, but they can be really

396
00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:48.640
minimizing for the griever who's on the other end, who

397
00:22:48.759 --> 00:22:51.759
just wants their grief and their pain to be witnessed.

398
00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:57.279
And there's actually a post in our community. So we

399
00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:00.599
have a peer support community platform now called good Morning

400
00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:04.000
Club and it's beautiful seeing you know, some of the

401
00:23:04.039 --> 00:23:05.920
comments that people are writing in there. But one of

402
00:23:05.960 --> 00:23:09.319
our members was talking about how they feel like when

403
00:23:09.359 --> 00:23:12.559
they're family members and friends, like if they tell them

404
00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:15.039
that they're having a really griefy day or you know,

405
00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:17.480
experience grief bombs we call them, which is just like

406
00:23:17.559 --> 00:23:19.920
those waves of emotions that just come and hit you

407
00:23:19.960 --> 00:23:23.000
out of nowhere. And they were saying that when they

408
00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:26.559
share that, or if their friends and family are witnessing that,

409
00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:31.400
they find that, they say to them, you know, have

410
00:23:31.519 --> 00:23:34.640
you got a counseling session booked or you know, what

411
00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:37.720
are you doing to look after yourself right now? Whereas

412
00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:40.279
they just want someone to go, this is so shit,

413
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:43.400
I'm so sorry. I'm here with you, Like, let it

414
00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:46.720
all out. It's normal to feel your emotions, no matter

415
00:23:46.839 --> 00:23:49.599
what looks like, no matter how messy it is, just

416
00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:51.880
don't rush it out the door. And so I think

417
00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:53.920
that would be the biggest thing I'd love people to know,

418
00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:56.400
is just let people be where they're out in their

419
00:23:56.440 --> 00:23:59.920
grief and it's grief is really messy and it's not

420
00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:04.519
there's no time frame to it, which I'm sure you know, Cas.

421
00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:09.119
Yeah, no, exactly exactly right. I mean, if I know anything,

422
00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:11.279
that's one thing that I know, and that's probably the

423
00:24:11.319 --> 00:24:13.359
one helpful thing that I've been able to share with

424
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:15.880
people you know who've been grieving, is like, there's no

425
00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:18.599
there's no time frame, there's no normal, there's no the

426
00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:21.759
right or expected way. I was going to ask you

427
00:24:21.799 --> 00:24:24.000
from all of the people who Now you've had your

428
00:24:24.039 --> 00:24:27.680
own experience, obviously, and then you've mentioned your community and

429
00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:30.640
all of the shared experiences. You know, you've talked to

430
00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:32.880
a lot of people in your community and on your

431
00:24:32.920 --> 00:24:36.839
own podcast, what are the most common things that come

432
00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:39.359
up for people? Like, what's the most common things that

433
00:24:39.400 --> 00:24:40.400
people experience.

434
00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:45.519
People not feeling understood is a massive one that we hear,

435
00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:48.519
and I think just that loneliness and isolation, and the

436
00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:51.200
reason why people are feeling that way is because they

437
00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:53.279
feel like unless people have been through it, they just

438
00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:58.960
don't understand. And I think as well, we I'd love

439
00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:02.559
to touch on the five stages of grief, which ties

440
00:25:02.599 --> 00:25:06.319
into this nicely, but there's a big misconception that we

441
00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:10.480
grieve in a linear way, in a set order and

442
00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:14.039
with a specific timeframe, and as we just touched on,

443
00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:16.039
that is just not what grief looks like at all.

444
00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:21.519
And I think what's happening is people are just feeling

445
00:25:21.559 --> 00:25:24.559
really lost, feeling like they don't know where to turn,

446
00:25:24.759 --> 00:25:28.039
they don't know if what they're experiencing is even normal.

447
00:25:28.599 --> 00:25:32.279
And I know firsthand when I was desperately googling things

448
00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:34.559
to see if I would ever feel normal again, I

449
00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:37.359
would always come across the five stages of grief. And

450
00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:39.480
so if anyone's listening, who hasn't heard of the five

451
00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:44.359
stages of grief, I'm sure everybody has. They are denial, anger, bargaining, depression,

452
00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:49.000
and acceptance. And what people may not know is these

453
00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:53.920
stages were actually observed by a Swiss American psychiatrist called

454
00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:56.640
Elizabeth Kobler Ross in her nineteen sixty nine book on

455
00:25:56.680 --> 00:26:00.000
Death and Dying. And these were stages that Elizabeth observed

456
00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:03.519
in people who were terminally ill and people who are

457
00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:05.920
at the end of their life. And so what's happened is,

458
00:26:05.960 --> 00:26:10.480
over the years, they've been misinterpreted for grief. And so

459
00:26:10.839 --> 00:26:13.359
we're all, you know, searching for support and coming across

460
00:26:13.359 --> 00:26:16.240
these five stages going great. You know, I've done denial,

461
00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:19.519
I'm in anger next time, you know, and then eventually

462
00:26:19.559 --> 00:26:22.400
I'm going to hit acceptance and then I'll be over it. Yeah,

463
00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:25.119
but it doesn't work that way at all. Like for me,

464
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:28.319
I was in anger for the whole first year. I

465
00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:31.279
didn't even really feel I wasn't able to feel sadness.

466
00:26:31.319 --> 00:26:33.759
I was just anger and guilt. So if I was

467
00:26:33.799 --> 00:26:36.400
looking at these five stages, I certainly, you know, would

468
00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:39.440
have felt like I wasn't doing grief right. But it's

469
00:26:39.480 --> 00:26:41.880
really important to know there's no right or wrong way

470
00:26:41.960 --> 00:26:46.000
to grieve and there is no linear path. Grief is

471
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:50.759
a big black, messy squiggle and yah, which we would

472
00:26:50.799 --> 00:26:54.000
in our book. But yeah, like I feel like learning

473
00:26:54.039 --> 00:26:57.480
that was so helpful for us and also for our community,

474
00:26:57.519 --> 00:26:59.880
and just knowing that there's no one size fits all

475
00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:03.880
when it comes to grief. And we also had David Kessler,

476
00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:06.079
who was protege to Elizabeth Koble or us. He came

477
00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:09.400
on our podcast and he had some brilliant advice, but

478
00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:11.920
we we ran this past him. I'm like, David, you know,

479
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:14.960
what's up with the five stages? And he confirmed, you know,

480
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:18.200
confirmed for us that Elizabeth never intended for those stages

481
00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:22.119
to be prescriptive. And I also asked him, what does

482
00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:24.440
acceptance even mean? You know, if we're meant to hit

483
00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:26.960
this point of acceptance, what does that look like for us?

484
00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:30.920
Because years on we're still grieving, so some people haven't

485
00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:34.680
really accepted the loss. And he said, there's not one

486
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:40.400
big final moment of acceptance, and acceptance looks more like

487
00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:44.359
little moments of acceptance throughout the rest of your life.

488
00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:48.519
And you know, he said, people ask him, you know,

489
00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:51.640
how am I going to agree for and they he says,

490
00:27:51.799 --> 00:27:53.359
to ask yourself, well, how long am I going to

491
00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:55.200
be alive? Because you're going to agree for the rest

492
00:27:55.240 --> 00:27:58.480
of your life. And I just felt a huge amount

493
00:27:58.519 --> 00:28:02.799
of relief hearing that, just knowing that I didn't have

494
00:28:02.920 --> 00:28:05.519
to hit that big moment of acceptance and then get

495
00:28:05.559 --> 00:28:10.160
over my loss because it just felt impossible for me. Yeah,

496
00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:11.799
but that was really helpful for us to learn.

497
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:16.599
David Kesler I have familiar with him as well, and

498
00:28:16.680 --> 00:28:21.119
I think two things. He obviously having been the you know,

499
00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:24.599
worked with Elizabeth Kubileros. He then lost his own son,

500
00:28:25.559 --> 00:28:32.480
which was just some weird, tragic irony. But didn't he

501
00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:37.079
also add a sixth stage? Did he add transcendence or

502
00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:41.480
something similar to the to the five stages finding meaning?

503
00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:42.960
Meaning?

504
00:28:43.039 --> 00:28:43.519
Right? Yeah?

505
00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:46.319
Was he sixth stage? So he wrote a book about

506
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:47.559
that as well, which is great.

507
00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:52.400
Grief is, like you just mentioned, it's complicated. I think

508
00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:55.119
even when we allow ourselves to think about the possibility

509
00:28:55.160 --> 00:28:56.960
that we're going to lose somebody, it's you know, it's

510
00:28:56.960 --> 00:28:59.240
a grandparent when they're old and I've lived a long,

511
00:28:59.319 --> 00:29:03.920
happy life. We don't deal so well with the grief

512
00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:07.599
that doesn't kind of fit our expectations of what's normal

513
00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:11.000
or expected losing somebody young, losing a child, for example,

514
00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:13.839
and you know, that's when it gets really messy and

515
00:29:13.839 --> 00:29:18.839
complicated for people. But also when grief is traumatic, like

516
00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:21.640
when it's a violent death or for example, for you,

517
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:25.480
like losing somebody to suicide, Like that's a whole other

518
00:29:26.039 --> 00:29:29.039
level of hell. I think, what would you share with

519
00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:33.960
people in terms of like how to unravel trauma and grief.

520
00:29:34.359 --> 00:29:38.440
It is its own kind of special hellicide loss. But yeah,

521
00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:42.920
for anyone who's experiencing traumatic loss, I mean we touched

522
00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:45.960
on a little bit earlier, but about it's important to

523
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:50.400
know that what you're experiencing is trauma on top of

524
00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:54.319
your grief. So it's traumatic grief, and it's very complex

525
00:29:54.400 --> 00:29:57.400
and very multi layered and can take a long long

526
00:29:57.480 --> 00:30:02.440
time to process, much longer than normal griefs, say an

527
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:08.599
expected death of a grandparent or an elderly parent, So

528
00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:13.599
it can be so sudden and shocking for your nervous

529
00:30:13.640 --> 00:30:17.680
system and take a long long time. So I'll just

530
00:30:17.799 --> 00:30:21.000
touch on my personal experience and that might be helpful

531
00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:24.160
for people to pull something from that. But I did

532
00:30:24.160 --> 00:30:27.599
a lot of talk therapy in the first year especially,

533
00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:30.880
which was crucial. I needed to kind of process and

534
00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:33.519
talk and wrap my head around what had happened and

535
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:36.599
find some strategies to help me cope. So I would

536
00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:40.759
definitely say talk therapy is a good place to start.

537
00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:45.160
And then I had felt that after quite some time,

538
00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:49.400
I was still struggling with the trauma. So it looked

539
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:54.640
like for me ruminating, I was constantly stuck on a

540
00:30:54.759 --> 00:30:57.720
loop in my head. I was stuck at the time

541
00:30:57.799 --> 00:31:01.319
and place of my mum's death. I was riddled with

542
00:31:01.440 --> 00:31:05.359
guilt and anxiety trying to process what had happened. I

543
00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:09.720
blamed myself, even though logically I know, you know, I

544
00:31:09.720 --> 00:31:13.720
couldn't have stopped it and it wasn't my fault. But

545
00:31:14.599 --> 00:31:18.240
it's a very common experience to feel when you've experienced

546
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:23.119
a traumatic or suicide losses to experience guilt, and I

547
00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:29.119
started learning about the mind body connection, which again I

548
00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:32.799
think is something that saved me in my grief, and

549
00:31:33.160 --> 00:31:35.759
learning about the nervous systems, like we talked about, so

550
00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:38.519
I now know what was happening to me is my

551
00:31:38.599 --> 00:31:42.119
body was stuck in what's called sympathetic overdrive. So we've

552
00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:44.960
got the sympathetic nervous system, which is fight or flight,

553
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:49.400
and the parasympathetic nervous system, which is when our bodies

554
00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:52.279
in rest and digest mode. So I was stuck in

555
00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:54.599
that fight or flight mode for a very long time,

556
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:58.319
and so those symptoms of my trauma, they weren't getting

557
00:31:58.359 --> 00:32:00.519
better because I was just stuck in that and I

558
00:32:00.519 --> 00:32:02.799
didn't have the tools or the knowledge to know what

559
00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:06.160
was even happening to me. So I could have talked

560
00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:07.680
for the rest of my life, but that wasn't going

561
00:32:07.759 --> 00:32:11.119
to help the trauma that was in my body. And

562
00:32:11.480 --> 00:32:14.880
so I started off learning about breath work and I

563
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:18.519
did a five week intensive breathwork course with an incredible

564
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:22.079
energy healer called Rebecca Jacks. She's common our podcast and

565
00:32:22.359 --> 00:32:25.000
shared her story. So she lost her brother to suicide

566
00:32:25.480 --> 00:32:27.799
and then went into the world of energy healing and

567
00:32:28.359 --> 00:32:30.279
so yeah, she was kind of starting out when we

568
00:32:30.279 --> 00:32:33.759
connected and I did this five week intensive breathwork session,

569
00:32:34.359 --> 00:32:37.039
and within that five weeks, I started to notice a

570
00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:40.880
real shift, like the ruminating started to slow down. I

571
00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:45.359
was sleeping better, I was getting clarity on things. I

572
00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:49.519
wasn't feeling as panicky as well, especially with a young child.

573
00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:51.519
I felt like I was such a helicopter mom. I

574
00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:54.599
would like gaspish my daughter fell over, or just any

575
00:32:54.599 --> 00:32:57.440
little thing. I was just so triggered into that fight

576
00:32:57.559 --> 00:33:00.440
or flight state, and I felt really unsafe in my body.

577
00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:04.720
And as I started doing this sematic work, I just

578
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:09.039
felt like I was stripping away, you know, those parts

579
00:33:09.079 --> 00:33:11.319
of me that I'd been holding on too. And something

580
00:33:11.359 --> 00:33:14.480
else that was really interesting is I had I was

581
00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:18.400
diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder when I was seventeen years old,

582
00:33:18.759 --> 00:33:20.599
and so I'd carried that all the way through into

583
00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:23.759
my thirties, just thinking that was part of my identity now,

584
00:33:23.960 --> 00:33:27.039
just being a really anxious person. And as I started

585
00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:31.640
doing this sematic work, I started healing and resolving some

586
00:33:31.720 --> 00:33:35.160
of those traumas from my childhood that had, you know,

587
00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:39.759
resulted in me being diagnosed with this disorder. Wow, and

588
00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:42.599
so there came a point where I actually stood back

589
00:33:42.599 --> 00:33:46.480
and went, I feel safer in my body than I

590
00:33:46.519 --> 00:33:50.599
have since I was seventeen years old, and after going

591
00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:53.359
through so much trauma with losing my mum in this

592
00:33:53.480 --> 00:33:57.839
most catastrophic way, I was like, this, this work is

593
00:33:57.960 --> 00:34:02.559
just incredible, Like it's truly healing and changed my life.

594
00:34:02.599 --> 00:34:05.960
And so many amazing things have happened as well since

595
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:08.079
I've done that work, and we went on to write

596
00:34:08.199 --> 00:34:11.400
a book with you know, building out our community further,

597
00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:14.760
and just even personally as well, Like I've grown so

598
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:17.679
much as a person after my mum died, and I

599
00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:20.159
wish she could meet this version of me, but I

600
00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:22.920
do feel like she knows, you know, she's she's watching

601
00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:27.199
over somewhere. But yeah, I definitely feel like I've experienced

602
00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:28.920
post traumatic growth.

603
00:34:29.079 --> 00:34:33.400
That is fantastic. And you know, I talk a lot

604
00:34:33.400 --> 00:34:35.480
about the nervous system, and I've talked about breathwork. I'm

605
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:37.800
not like a trained breathwork kind of facilitator, but I

606
00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:42.119
find that so fascinating that that was so powerfully effective

607
00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:45.280
for you as part of your healing process. It's amazing.

608
00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:49.239
Yeah, it was incredible, and I urge anyone who you know,

609
00:34:49.400 --> 00:34:52.440
can relate to that version of me that was ruminating

610
00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:55.880
and feeling anxious all the time to explore it. You know,

611
00:34:55.880 --> 00:34:58.199
there's even just youtubes that you could start looking at

612
00:34:58.199 --> 00:35:01.000
whim Hoff, like a ten minute breath work session. You

613
00:35:01.079 --> 00:35:04.000
can start, you know, small, and just give it a go.

614
00:35:04.199 --> 00:35:07.559
But it's just changed my life. And I think everybody

615
00:35:07.559 --> 00:35:08.639
should be breathing.

616
00:35:10.119 --> 00:35:13.440
Oh for sure. For sure. I actually had Samantha Skelley

617
00:35:13.519 --> 00:35:16.840
on the podcast and she runs Pause Breathwork, so she

618
00:35:16.920 --> 00:35:20.000
does breathwork facilitator training, but she also has this app,

619
00:35:20.079 --> 00:35:23.039
this breath work app, and so I often refer people

620
00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:24.320
to go and have a look at that. But you know,

621
00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:26.559
she's only one of you know, there's there's plenty out

622
00:35:26.599 --> 00:35:30.079
there for people to to go and find. But that's

623
00:35:30.199 --> 00:35:34.679
really great testimony for the power of just breathing.

624
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:37.159
The power of the breath yeah, and the power of

625
00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:40.800
the brand. You know, we don't just grieve without minds.

626
00:35:40.840 --> 00:35:43.079
I think there's a big misconception that grief is just

627
00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:47.800
an emotional experience, but it's not. It's very physical. It's emotional,

628
00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:51.800
it's physical, it's spiritual, it's social. It can impact us

629
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:52.800
in so many ways.

630
00:35:53.159 --> 00:35:56.760
Yeah, absolutely, Imagen, this might be I don't know if

631
00:35:56.760 --> 00:36:00.719
there's any morbid questions or not morbid questions. But having

632
00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:03.079
been through you and soal both having been through what

633
00:36:03.159 --> 00:36:06.599
you went through losing your mum's has it have you

634
00:36:06.920 --> 00:36:10.599
put in place anything in your own life to make

635
00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:13.480
the process easier for the ones that you leave behind?

636
00:36:13.519 --> 00:36:15.440
You know, do you more think about not just your

637
00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:20.679
own mortality, but the aftermath of you passing away? For example?

638
00:36:20.840 --> 00:36:22.079
Like have you put you know?

639
00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:24.039
You know what I'm saying, I know what you're saying,

640
00:36:24.239 --> 00:36:28.199
and I know how to answer it. Is practically absolutely not.

641
00:36:29.599 --> 00:36:31.559
I don't even have a will, which I really need

642
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:35.239
to sort out losing my mum. Suddenly. I'll get onto

643
00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:40.320
that after this conversation. Yeah, But emotionally absolutely, like I

644
00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:43.719
live differently now, and that's something that my mom's death

645
00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:46.360
has taught me, is that everything is finite, and so

646
00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:48.599
I really live in the moment and I really try

647
00:36:48.639 --> 00:36:51.199
and be as present as I can every second that

648
00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:53.079
I can with the people that I love, because you

649
00:36:53.159 --> 00:36:55.920
just don't know, you know when we're going to die,

650
00:36:56.239 --> 00:36:59.920
and take a lot of photos, take a lot of videos.

651
00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:02.440
I feel like I'm always annoying people with the camera

652
00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:04.559
in their face now. But yeah, I wish I had

653
00:37:04.599 --> 00:37:07.840
more videos of my mum, And yeah I do. I

654
00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:11.159
do live more in the moment, and I do try

655
00:37:11.199 --> 00:37:14.559
to not sweat the small stuff as much because it

656
00:37:14.599 --> 00:37:16.400
doesn't matter at the end of the day. You know,

657
00:37:16.840 --> 00:37:18.760
we're not going to take all those things with us.

658
00:37:20.840 --> 00:37:23.239
Yeah, so true. And there were two aspects of that question.

659
00:37:23.320 --> 00:37:27.199
One was the emotional living differently. But I was particularly

660
00:37:27.199 --> 00:37:29.360
thinking of like Sal and all of that admin stuff

661
00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:31.239
that she had to do, and thinking, Oh, I wonder

662
00:37:31.239 --> 00:37:33.280
if you'd be more likely to make sure things are

663
00:37:33.320 --> 00:37:35.639
all in order, affairs in order, just in case.

664
00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:39.119
But no, absolutely not Saal, Probably yes, because she's an

665
00:37:39.159 --> 00:37:43.280
instrumental instrumental me absolutely not. I mean, I'll probably have

666
00:37:43.400 --> 00:37:46.960
like letters for everybody everybody I love, but like haven't

667
00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:51.840
sorted out the dead men, sorry in advance to I love,

668
00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:55.239
But hopefully that day doesn't come for a very long time.

669
00:37:56.840 --> 00:37:59.880
Yeah. I one thing that I that really struck me,

670
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:02.480
and I was doing my clinical psychology training, which we

671
00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:05.639
tend to really struck me that we tend to pathologize

672
00:38:05.639 --> 00:38:10.159
people's emotions far too much, Like everything needs, everything needs

673
00:38:10.199 --> 00:38:14.039
to be a diagnosis something that really turns me off. Psychology.

674
00:38:14.039 --> 00:38:16.440
I think for many years that was its focus in

675
00:38:16.519 --> 00:38:19.920
how to label and categorize and pathologize emotions. And I

676
00:38:19.960 --> 00:38:21.960
think that, yeah, I just wanted to make that point.

677
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:24.719
I think going through the grieving process, like the point

678
00:38:24.760 --> 00:38:28.079
that you have made very well is that everything's normal,

679
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:34.039
like human emotions, everything that you feel. It's like, I

680
00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:37.280
worry that people going through a grieving process they're almost

681
00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:40.679
pathologizing themselves. Would that be fair to say absolutely wondering

682
00:38:40.719 --> 00:38:41.480
what's wrong with me?

683
00:38:41.679 --> 00:38:44.719
Everybody's wondering what's wrong with them and feeling like they're

684
00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:47.639
going crazy even or that what their experience isn't normal,

685
00:38:47.679 --> 00:38:50.320
and comparing themselves to other grievers. There's a lot of

686
00:38:50.719 --> 00:38:56.159
comparisons going on. I remember walking into my GP's office

687
00:38:56.320 --> 00:38:59.360
immediately after Mum died, just desperate for anything. I just

688
00:38:59.400 --> 00:39:02.159
didn't know where to turn and just thought, maybe, you know,

689
00:39:02.280 --> 00:39:04.440
I go on a mental health plan, go and see

690
00:39:04.559 --> 00:39:08.519
a psychologist. And the first thing that she wanted to

691
00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:12.400
do was prescribe me with antidepressants. And I look back

692
00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:14.159
now and I'm like, that's the last thing I needed.

693
00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:17.320
I didn't need a band Aid fixed on that, like

694
00:39:17.400 --> 00:39:21.360
grief is a natural, normal response to loss, it's not

695
00:39:21.559 --> 00:39:26.039
something to pathologize like they're quick too. So I love

696
00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:28.719
that you brought that up. And also at the six

697
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:32.360
month mark, after my mum had died very traumatically, I

698
00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:35.599
was diagnosed with complex grief disorder, that new disorder that

699
00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:38.800
went in the DSM five that caused a lot of controversy.

700
00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:42.440
So yeah, I got diagnosed with that disorder, and I

701
00:39:42.440 --> 00:39:44.679
look back now, I'm like, I didn't have a disorder.

702
00:39:44.719 --> 00:39:47.559
It was a very normal reaction to be still ruminating

703
00:39:47.599 --> 00:39:50.519
six months after my mom died by suicide and not

704
00:39:50.599 --> 00:39:54.360
having access to the resources and support that I needed.

705
00:39:55.159 --> 00:39:58.119
So yeah, I'm very passionate about this that we do

706
00:39:58.199 --> 00:40:03.199
need to stop pathologizing grief and look at you know.

707
00:40:03.519 --> 00:40:05.519
I mean, in our book, we've put a whole chapter

708
00:40:05.559 --> 00:40:08.079
of all the different emotions that you could feel, and

709
00:40:08.119 --> 00:40:10.400
then a whole chapter and all the physical symptoms that

710
00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:15.000
you could experience. But it's just different for everybody, you know,

711
00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:18.000
and some people may not have a hugely emotional experience,

712
00:40:18.039 --> 00:40:20.199
and then they're wondering, what's wrong with me? Why am

713
00:40:20.199 --> 00:40:23.239
I on the floor crying when I feel like I

714
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:26.280
should be and I'm not, and we're all judging ourselves

715
00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:29.599
so harshly. And I just really want people who are

716
00:40:29.639 --> 00:40:31.840
listening to this who are grieving, to just let go

717
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:35.199
of any expectations of how you think your grief should look,

718
00:40:35.239 --> 00:40:38.159
and please don't compare it to others because it's so individual.

719
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:41.239
Yeah, that's another really great point, that people who feel

720
00:40:41.239 --> 00:40:42.280
like they're not sad enough.

721
00:40:42.599 --> 00:40:45.519
Yes, yeah, we're all judging ourselves.

722
00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:48.639
Yeah, imagine. I think that the work that you're doing

723
00:40:48.719 --> 00:40:51.880
is amazing. When I ever put out a call and

724
00:40:51.920 --> 00:40:54.239
say what are the topics that I should cover or

725
00:40:54.239 --> 00:40:56.440
I haven't covered, the topic of grief comes up all

726
00:40:56.480 --> 00:40:58.480
the time. I've meant. I actually reached out to David

727
00:40:58.519 --> 00:41:00.760
Kesler at one point, I think, and never got a

728
00:41:00.760 --> 00:41:04.239
response back. So when I saw the work that you

729
00:41:04.360 --> 00:41:06.800
and Sale are doing, I knew that I had to

730
00:41:06.880 --> 00:41:09.239
get you on here because I just think it's so needed.

731
00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:12.000
So thank you for the work that you're doing. And

732
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:16.880
well done on all of the success of the Good

733
00:41:16.920 --> 00:41:18.039
Morning Movement.

734
00:41:18.679 --> 00:41:20.880
Thanks so much, cas Well. Hopefully we the next best

735
00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:22.880
thing after David Kesler anyway.

736
00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:26.599
So I think I think even better.

737
00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:31.880
Yeah, it's brilliant. But yeah, so it's been an honor

738
00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:34.559
to chat with you and just share. I'm very passionate

739
00:41:34.599 --> 00:41:37.159
about the subject, as you can probably tell. But the

740
00:41:37.239 --> 00:41:39.960
more conversations about grief are better. And I love that

741
00:41:40.039 --> 00:41:42.599
you had lots of requests for the topic because I

742
00:41:42.599 --> 00:41:45.599
feel like, you know, not everyone wants to talk about it.

743
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:48.360
Not everybody wants to talk about it, but then the

744
00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:50.880
people who do can't find anybody to talk about it, right,

745
00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:56.159
And it's like where do they go? And it's all

746
00:41:56.159 --> 00:41:59.280
different types of grief that I hear about. It's like, oh,

747
00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:01.679
you know, it's exactly what you've talked about today, like

748
00:42:01.760 --> 00:42:05.840
these various kind of kinds of death and dying and bereavement,

749
00:42:06.239 --> 00:42:08.920
and then we haven't even talked about anticipatory grief and

750
00:42:08.920 --> 00:42:12.800
and bigulous. You know, like it's this whole spectrum and

751
00:42:12.840 --> 00:42:15.960
there's all these different circumstances that people find themselves in

752
00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:18.760
and there just isn't enough available.

753
00:42:18.920 --> 00:42:21.679
So thank you, oh thank you for having me on.

754
00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:24.079
But yeah, grief is, I mean, there's so many different

755
00:42:24.119 --> 00:42:26.599
types of grief too. That could be a whole nother episode,

756
00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:30.519
but yeah, we do you want to do that, But yeah,

757
00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:33.960
our community is for all different types of grief and

758
00:42:33.960 --> 00:42:36.519
loss as well. So both Sal and I lost our mums,

759
00:42:36.519 --> 00:42:40.440
but we have members who are grieving all different types

760
00:42:40.480 --> 00:42:42.400
of grief and in our platform as well, we have

761
00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:46.239
a support group for anticipatory grief, we have a support

762
00:42:46.239 --> 00:42:50.639
group for ambiguous loss estrangement. All the different types of

763
00:42:50.679 --> 00:42:53.639
grief are welcome there. So if anyone is looking for

764
00:42:53.760 --> 00:42:57.199
a corner of the Internet you know to find that support, yeah,

765
00:42:57.280 --> 00:42:58.599
find it with good Morning.

766
00:43:01.400 --> 00:43:03.800
You can connect with Im and of course her partner

767
00:43:03.880 --> 00:43:07.639
Sal at good Morning m o U r NI NG

768
00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:10.599
dot com dot a U and their book is now

769
00:43:10.639 --> 00:43:13.920
available in all bookstores. If you enjoy this episode, like

770
00:43:13.960 --> 00:43:15.960
I said, please do think about sharing it with a friend,

771
00:43:16.440 --> 00:43:18.360
leave us a rating and a review. It really does

772
00:43:18.400 --> 00:43:20.440
help us to get into the ears of more listeners

773
00:43:20.480 --> 00:43:23.440
and grow our Crappy a happy community. If this episode

774
00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:25.800
did bring up any issues for you, you know that twenty

775
00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:28.679
four to seven support is available at Lifeline Australia one

776
00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:31.960
three one one one four For now. I hope you

777
00:43:32.079 --> 00:43:34.800
enjoyed this episode and I cannot wait to catch you

778
00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:48.000
next week on another fabulous episode of Crappy to Happy