Letting go with Hugh van Cuylenburg

0:02 A listener production. This is Crappita Happy and I am your host Castunn. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist and mindfulness meditation teacher and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their field and who have something of value to share that will help you feel less crappy and more happy. I can't believe it has taken me this long to have Hugh van Silemberg on the podcast, but once we got talking, we could have talked for hours. You might know who from his book The Resilience Project or his podcast The Imperfect.

0:47 Hugh has been. Banging on about the benefits of gratitude, empathy, and mindfulness for the longest time. He became a school teacher initially after watching his sister struggle with her mental health, thinking that if he could help kids with their mental health then they would hopefully grow up to be happy adults. He has since gone on to create The Resilience Project, where he teaches mental health skills to kids across the country. That program is now also in big sporting clubs all around the country, including AFL clubs, the National Rugby League and the Australian cricket team. And as I. Said, Hugh now also hosts his very own popular podcast called The Imperfects, where he gets seemingly perfect very well known Australians like Hamish Blake to talk about all of their insecurities and share their vulnerability. In our chat, Hugh shared with me what it was like growing up with a sister who struggled with mental health issues, the challenges that he has had getting his work into schools, as well as.

1:45 The success that he has had on the. Personal crisis that he had during Lockdown, which led to him writing his most recent book, which is called Let Go. This is a really special conversation. I hope that you love it. Here's Hugh You welcome to the Crapy to Happy podcast. Thank you so much for having me. As my phone beeps at the worst possible. I know, I've better put mine on the silent too. I normally do that and I get a bit slack sometimes, Hugh. I was just saying to you earlier that I feel like everybody knows who you are from your the amazing book that you write, the Resilience Project, and the work that you do, and you do have another book out more recently. I feel like I'm the only person in Australia hasn't had you on the show to talk about the Resilience Project.

2:30 It's very remissive me. So can we start there. Can you please tell me about the Resilience Project and how that came about? Yeah, happily, and thanks for having me on. By the way, I really love this podcast. I listened to most recent lists of the episode with is it Mosha? Is that right? Yes? Mind wandering? Yes? Yeah, I'd read a similar book is There a little bit on mind running? And it completely blew my mind. And then I listened to that episode and I just yeah, you have amazing conversations. They're so they're so good. So thanks for having on it. It's a real thrill. Oh it's a pleasure. And thank you for saying I find that fascinating too. We could have a whole separate conversation about. And mind worting, but let's talk about you today. You what was a question?

3:16 Tell me about the Resilience Project? How did it come to be right from the beginning? Yeah, well, I guess I mean some people will be thinking I've heard the story before, but I might try and tell them a little bit of a different way, in a way that I haven't really told before. But we growing up as kids, we had a very very happy childhood, very blessed. In fact, my wife and I last night we went out for dinner and a movie, which we never ever, ever ever get to do, and I, for some really weird reason, chose the suburb that I grew up in. Like, I said, oh, we should go there, and it's not close to home. I was like, I like to go there, and she said, well, it's a bit of a day. You posted, why are we going there? We could go here or hearing I said, I just I actually don't know, I just really want to go there. And we ended up in the suburb of Born in Melbourne and we're to a movie and I was sitting that I just I it was such a nostalgic. I don't know, I just I seen and I said to I think the reason when to come here is I just have their most amazing memories of my childhood. I was so lucky your big backyard and very present parents, and went to good schools and loved playing sport in the backyard, and these beautiful memories of you know, in the winter, sliding around in the grass pretending I was an AFO footballer, and in summer it was playing cricket until it got dark and getting bit by mosquitoes and begging Dad to keep playing. And so you had a really happy childhood. When I was fourteen, no sorry, when my sister was fourteen, I was seventeen, she was diagnosed with anorexia and nevosa. So mom and Dad sat me down when I was seventeen and my sister was fourteen.

4:42 My little brother, Josh it was eleven at the time, and I said, your sister's not well. And I think she played neple that day. It was nepple. And I said, what are you talking about. She's fine. I said, now she's sick and I said she played nepple. She was definitely, she's definitely not sick. And they said, no, no, your sister's going to a mental illness on a physical illness. And I said, ah, right, And I said do you understand And I said, nad that we were not talking about mental illness in the nineties at schools, well really anywhere. I don't not that I'm were, but definitely in my world, it was not a thing that was ever talked about. I had no idea what they were talking about. And they explained that when she eats food, she'll get better. And I thought, Okay, that does not sound serious at all, Like if she just has to eat food, that is not serious, Like that's far from serious. And it got worse and worse and worse, and it just was so grooming our household. And I remember the day my sister was admitted to the hospital, coming home from the hospital, and she was eighteen and I was twenty twenty one, and I remember seeing the dinner table and we're having dinner.

5:44 It was just sisters in the hospitals, me, my dad, and my brother Josh. And Dad got up really early. I hadn't finished his dead but he just got up and went stood at the kitchen sink and I thought he was just doing the washing up. And I asked him something. He didn't answer, and I turned I asked him again. I turned around and I looked at him and he was I'll never forget. I'll never ever forget this. This still makes me really emotionally ever think of it, but I'll never forget the very sad figure of this silhouette of my dad standing out of the kitchen sink, just sobbing. And I had only ever seen Dad cry once before that, when our old died. It was like literally ten years before that. I'd never seen Dad cry apart from that, and I think that was kind of the moment A lot of things happened for me. First all, that's when I realized how serious this mental illness was. I mean, I think I knew deep down, but I sort of ignore it. I was pretending it wasn't happening because I just didn't know how to deal with something so painful.

6:32 So I just, like a lot of men, I went, I think i'll just not focus on that. I'll pretend it's not happening. So I kind of ignored it. But when I saw Dad crying, two things happened. I realized how serious it was. But the second thing that happened was I became deeply fascinated in the question what is it that makes people happy? I knew I couldn't go into the hospital and fix my sister. I knew that was well beyond me, but I did want to help. I just remember thinking, my mum and Dad are not happy. My brother's not happy. I want to help them to be happier. And I had no idea, I absolutely no idea what to do or how I would achieve that. But I very soon after that I changed my I was actually studying at the time neuropsychophysiology, which is of course I couldn't even spell, so I was never going to pass it. And I just had this desire to be in schools, and so I quit that course, which is such a huge mistake. I wish i'd kept going.

7:26 I would have loved to have. But I went into teaching because I had this sort of if I go to schools and I'm a teacher, that I can stop kids getting a mental illness. And I had no plan on how I was going to do that. In fact, my first job was at a girls school because I remember thinking, oh, there were be heaps of kids there that could potentially be out of my sister, so I'll go there. I remember my first day in the classroom like going, Okay, let's stop these kids getting it's a littleness. I don't know how. I have absolutely no idea how to do this, but I remember having that strong feeling when I was in there. I wasn't thinking about literacy or numeracy or there are eleven year old girls, and I was seeing that, going I'm going to make these kids the happiest kids in the world. And yeah, we had a lot of fun, but I had no idea what I was doing, and it probably wasn't until I was in I mean I was. My sister was still sick the whole way through this whole journey of my teaching, and my partner at the time, she was also a school teacher. We met at university. Her name is Angelie.

8:20 She's an amazing teacher, incredible person, and I was so blessed to meet her at Union and spend our time here at Union. And she said to me, I want to go. And we're living together at a time, and she said, I want to go and live. I want to go overseas somewhere. And I didn't want to because I was such a homebody and I wanted to stay in Born and go to the cinema and get all that kind of stuff. And she was desperate too, so we ended up going overseas and we chose India because her dad is Indian. So I thought we'll go to India and we were over there, I said, let's do some teaching so we can get paid, and we needed to earn some money, and she said, I think we should volunteer, and I said, no, we should, No, No, we to teach. She's the same thing as we get paid for it. And she's just got such a beautiful spirit and such a generous, compassionate person. Do we're over here, we're going to go and we've seen people who need teachers over here, like desperately need let's go and volunteer.

9:15 And I sort of agreed to it. And when a community said you can live here for you know, you can live with the principal for a couple of weeks and you'll get three meals a day, I thought, oh that's terrific. You know that we're on a shoe string budget. I wasn't being a tired us. We were on a shoe string budget, so we kind of had to I was considering that where she was just she's just got this really philanthropic nature about it. She was thinking, I don't really care, let's just volunteer. I'll never forget the feeling of shock that I felt when we arrived in this village and we were being shown around, and I realized in this village there was no running water, there was no electricity. We were sleeping on the floor, there were no beds, and I remember thinking, very early on, I can't do this. I actually can't do this. There's no way I'm staying a few weeks here. There's just it's not like I can't do it. I would love to, but I just can't. She, on the other hand, was thinking, no, this is perfect as well, this is going to be good for us, and I was thinking, how sleep on a floor gonna be good for us? And I my first day in the school changed my life forever because I just met these kids. One kid in particular, her write about the book a lot called Stuns. And I remember this kid the impact he had on me. I mis remember thinking to myself, I've never in my life seen joy like this before. I've never seen joy like it, and I remember thinking I'm so. I remember looking across the dinner in the middle of the desert. The classrooms were there was a blackboard in every classroom, one piece of chalk. There was a stick which had cotton wrapped around her or like some kind of material that you

10:45 would use to rub off the board did it really work properly? So there was just it. It looked like hundreds of years worth of like writing in the background. You had to write over the top of it. Kids sitting on the floor that got their school uniform. As far as I could see, that was pretty much all our owned for closes, their school uniform, shoes that were just I mean, if we saw a kid wearing their shoes in a school in Australia would be really concerned, you know. But all the kids had these old shoes are too small for them. And I just remember thinking to myself, I've never seen you all like this, and I became very fascinated by that. And it's easy to join the dots on your journey. Looking back, I don't think at any point I thought, well I need to experience this so I can then go back to Australia and set up this thing. But I think my sister struggles back home inspired me to go, G know what, I'm going to leave you as long as it takes me to work out what are these people doing every single day that just makes them so happy? So we stayed for three and a half months, and all the podcasts I've done, and all the stories I've done. I soon after we got back from India, my ex and I wheretually broke up, and so soon after that I went started telling the story about going to India. So and I cut her out of the story purely because I found it very hard to talk about it. It was just I didn't want to break up sor right. So I was like, I didn't want to turn up to schools every and talk about someone that I sort of still want to do my life. So that we've recently got back in touch, was in literally in the last few months, and it's been really nice and and so I feel like I've never really given her credit for the fact that I went there because of her, and we went to that village because of her, and we stayed as long as we did because of her. I've never given her the credit for that, and I feel

12:16 like I need to. But when we were there, and when I was there, I just remember this one kid in particular, called Stunts. And if people google me, I think you don't have to. You don't have to scroll too far to find a photo of this kid's stuns. And so I talk about him. Ever, I go he just did these things every single day because they're running the village, they all. So what they did was they practiced gratitude, empathy and mindfulness, which is on the front cover of the book. So it's not a huge surprise from anyone. But they just practice these things every single day. And I could have sort of joined in just because it was weird if we didn't. You know, they'd do this meditative chance every single morning for like half an hour.

12:56 I remember thinking it was a ridiculous waste of time. But it wasn't until I came back to Australia and looked into the research behind these things, and you would know this being a psych but there is decades and decades and decades of research screaming at us that these things gratitutr empthy and mindfulness. They're not the silver bullet that just make you happy and stop you having a mental illness ever. But what they do do is they push you up the mental health spectrum, you know, as your podcast would say, they can take you from crappy to happy pretty quickly. And so this is such a long answer to your question. Sorry, okay, no, I love it, But that pint of how the Resarch project, SAT came back to Melbourne and I started. I went back to teaching and I had a group of about thirty kids that I was teaching, and I started bringing gratitude, empthy and mindfless into my own classroom. I wasn't I didn't tell any at the school I was doing it because I was worried that'd say no, don't do that. And I think they probably would have gone back because you're not here to teach them that. It's literacy and numeracy sort of.

13:56 When was this like? Is this back in the. Early in India? Two thousand and eight, right and two thousand and nine I was back and ten I was back teaching in the classroom. I had a group of kids who were disengaged from traditional schooling. So it was the opposite of a private girls school which I mentioned before. It was a group of teenage boys who were really struggling in really struggling in mainstream schooling, were a bit lost, and so I had these boys and I would start the morning every morning with this twenty minute walk around these two this this huge park, and all they were allowed to do is think about what they could hear and then I have to come back and write down the things they could hear was that I couldn't really get them to sit still and do a meditation, but they would do that because they were very kind of like tactile or didactical or that they just love movement, and so we would do that. End of the day, they had to just write on a piece of pap from their desk three things went well for them during the day, and they didn't have to call it out or say they just had to leave it there so I could see. So that was the gratitude stuff. And we had this rolling we called it a rolling act of kindness where no one knew who was on at that time. Someone had to start it and they would do something kind for someone else and then that person was onto them. Then they'd pass it on to someone else, and so we were doing stuff like that, and I just noticed that just had this a huge impact on these boys who I don't know, and I didn't measure it.

15:13 There was no research on it. It just I just felt like in my heart, I just felt like it was really big for these boys, and did it with this The next year, I had a group of boys a few girls in the classes or did it again, and it just seemed to be really big for them as well. And then Homer thinking I want to I want to reach more people with this stuff. I think I'm going to go and do talks to school. And so I quit my job as a teacher. And we were telling the people I was quitting and they said, oh, you're starting your own business. And this is how green I was. I really had no idea what was doing. I said, no, no, I'm not studying business. I'm just going to go and do talks to school. And they said, what, what's school? I said, I don't know. A call my old school where I went to school, and I said, you would love to have you come back and speak, And they said how much does it cost? And I went, h it's one hundred and forty nine dollars and I mean, what to speak for an hour for the whole year? Yep, And I went wow, okay, yes, great. I remember thinking wow, that's pretty cool. Hundred FW dollars for an hour. This is unbelievable. I was like, I'm going to be loaded.

16:14 This is just ridiculous. And then and then I called my I called the school I taught, and I told them and they went, yeah, no, it is how much. I said, one hundred found dollars. I was like, oh, my gosh. I was thinking, how this is like, I'm making so much money. This is outrageous. And then I started calling schools who had never heard of me, and people were going, sorry, mate, who are you? And I was like trying to explain, and I went, yeah, n We'll be fine, thanks very much. How mean, where have you done this before? And I said, oh, this school and this school, and I went so just two schools at the school you went to, in a school you taught at. I was like, yeah, but they loved us, and there were going, we'll just come back to us next year. And it was three years of seriously lonely and a lot of nose, like a lot of notes. I remember sitting at one of the most exclusive private schools in Melbourne and with the assistant principal, one of the most maybe the most exclusive, and I was sitting in there and I was looking out the window and there were four gardeners working on the same hedge and I remember the guy said to me, sorry about we don't have money in the budget for that, and I was thinking, ooh, could you get one of the gardeners to stay over in the morning. Whatever. But but I look back and what I was offering back then, you know, it wasn't It was a presentation, that's it. But now it's you know, we now got I think it's about four hundred and twenty thousand kids around Australia doing our curriculum every single day and tuning into our digital program which we created with you know, half and half of Hamish and Andy's team.

17:35 And it's amazing. But you were ahead of your time all that stuff that everybody's talking about now. Like back then, you know, I was in the field and it. Was pretty new, even that positive psychology and all the benefits of it and focusing on strengths, and you. Know that was that wasn't widely talked about. Yeah, it's very true. I remember people's positive psychology and I would I was very careful to say I wanted to say. I said, not not really, I said, it's some elements of positive psychology. I know the people who are who do positive psychology are pretty like, this is our thing and don't do it if you're not us and so, which is which is fine. But I I for a while people saying you need to study positive psychology, you need to do it, or you need to go back to you and studied, And I thought, I understand why people are saying this. But what I do is I go and tell really emotional or highly I hope, what are emotionally engaging stories based off my life. And what I saw was gratitude, empathy, and mindfulness and these are things that I think have saved my sister's life as well, by the way, And I don't want to get up on stage and say here are some things that other people have research that. Well, sorry, I do that with great chat with your marfinness. But people saying you need to be talking about mindset, you're not talking about mindset. And I would say a mindset is amazing, like growth mindset is. It's incredible. But I don't have

19:05 an emotional story that is going to engage an audience to link to that. It would literally be saying, oh, they're also there's a sing called growth mindset. And when you've got a growth mindset, to me, that's not what we do at Zonies projects, Like we have these beautiful stories of these kids in India who who literally would point out to me every single day how lucky they were to have shoes, or to have a school UNFOT, or to have lunch provided for them, or as riset. I didn't have stories about kids in India going. Also, I have a growth mindset, so you might want to talk about that. So I just felt like to be for this to work, if I'm going to go to schools and talk, it needs to be really authentic experience to me in my life. And that's kind of what's worked for us. And so it's funny you mentioned positive psychology because early on, you know, Pill from Joel on Grammar and particularly were saying, well, it's not positive psychology.

19:57 If you want to do positive coology had to come and train with us and more teacher and then you can, which I was very grateful for and that's fine, But I didn't have an emotional connection to a lot of the stuff that they were teaching, and so I thought, no, no, I need to be authentic to me and my experience and do this in a way that works for me, and which has been amazing. We had this we haven't really started talking about this publicly yet, Cus, but we had this initial interest. You enormously. But we and I bring this up now just because I think some people were thinking, if it's not positive psychology, it's probably not going to work. You can't just use elements of it and hope. But we had a research of Madelaide University or research team a few years ago heard that we were in a thousand schools and I think they thought, is anyone going to evaluate this program or is this We're just all going to just jump into this. And so they actually did an evaluation of it, which made me quite nervous at the time because we get great anecdotal feedback, but I was worried they were going to publish this thing saying well, it doesn't work. And so what they did was they looked at eighty thousand kids in Australia who are not doing our program and compared with eighty thousand kids that are doing our program. And yeah, and it was kind of it was a huge sample size, a huge sample size, and I never when they gave me the results, I didn't know if I should be happy or sad. I still haven't worked at our house.

21:14 So what they found was the eighty thousand kids around Australia not doing our program in the year twenty twenty twenty one, well nine twenty nineteen twenty twenty one, symptoms of anxiety depression went up greatly and their feelings of hope and life satisfaction went down, which is not a huge surprise, I don't think of what we've just been through, we're going through. But what they found was the kids who Resilience Project schools, their depression and anxiety didn't go up at all, and their satisfaction and feelings of hope actually went up in twenty twenty which I saw that and I felt this great pang of pride or excitement, but then I thought, oh my god, we're only in a thousand schools. There's a lot more schools in Australia, and so it was this mixed kind of feeling. But yeah, it was a nice validation I guess for what.

22:02 We do totally totally, and I guess, you know, and the evidence there to be able to go to schools and say this is why you need it. Now, now you've got something tangible that you can say it's not just anecdotal, it is here's the evidence. Yeah, it is nice to be able to present this stuff to prospective schools and say, oh, by the way it works. Yeah, by the way, yeah, I love that you. You know, you stayed authentic and in integrity with yourself and you tell stories because that is obviously what connects with people and what engages people. And I being a psychologist myself, I think there is a real it's it's double edged. Like I was really keen to go and get my clinical well not even clinical, but just my registration as a psychologist even when I was life coaching, because I wanted that.

22:48 Credibility. You know, I wanted to be able to say, like, I'm qualified to talk about this stuff, but there's this, and I think many psyches will relate to this. Once you've got the qualification, you kind of become so. A sense of restriction or constriction about what you can talk about because you can't just share an opinion. Everything that you say has got to be backed up by evidence because you're a psychologist and you've got to maintain this ethical standards, and you know it's got to be you know, you get conditioned into having to have twenty five references to back up everything that you say, Like it's it's irresponsible to just throw an opinion or something an anecdote out there. It's a totally I know exactly what you're saying. It's such a tight line that you sort of have to.

23:31 We on our podcasting Perfect, We've got a psychologist on once a month who will pick out her favorite part of an episode and then talk about it. And I've known Emily for a very very very very long time since we were kids, and I'm so sorry you're doing this, but every episode we are so restricted by she'll say something, actually, quit it that out. I actually probably can't say that as I'm not your psychologist. I'm not giving because we'll talk about things and issues in our life and she'll say, okay, so I'm not your psychologic just this is not advice. This is a thing that it's so funny to do exactly. And then and then we'll turn the microphone off and she'll say, oh, read this amazing. She'll tell me something unbelievable. I go, we should say that, and she goes, I can't say that because of this, this and this. So it's a really interesting space you're in, and it's something I'm very aware of as well as someone who talks about mental health who doesn't have the education and the qualifications that you do. I'm very scared of I'm petrified of saying something that's going to cause harm or someone's going to go, oh, it's clinical advice. I'm not a psychologist.

24:31 I just I'm fascinated by the topic, and I read a lot, and I listen to a lot of people like yourself, to a psychologists, and I'll pass on what you guys say. But even that makes me nervous. So yeah, I understand exactly. I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe so that you get notified when you EPs drop and head on over to Apple pod casts or wherever you listen and leave us a rating and review. How did this become like you talking to a couple of schools to becoming okay away from schools. Now you're in sporting clubs.

25:16 You're telling me off air that you were just with the State of Origin team. How has it developed you? I have such it's been in extraordinary journey and exhausting because for three years, no one said yes. When people started saying yes, I just said yes to everything and everyone, and I never said I was like, I'm not going to say no. I will not say no. And I was stupid because some of the stuff I did was just ridiculous. I been burnt out quite a few times. But it just word of mouth. I never did advertising. I never did marketing. I probably should have been the first three years, but I remember thinking, I just want this to be word of mouth. I feel like that's the most powerful way, most authentic way to grow this.

25:57 I'm a huge fan of the band The National, and I remember reading an article about them saying they're the last rock band to grow organically and authentically without social media, without in this new age of like things going viral. It was just their music. You know. They'd play gigs. Every single notes footage of them playing gigs where there's like one person there and they are giving it everything. There's footage of them go out on stage and there's no one there at a gig and they gave it everything because the guy who was doing the sound was really enjoying it and he told him mate, and and that had a big impact on me, and I thought just whenever you get on stage, give it absolutely everything you have, because one person might tell another teacher and they might say, as you get sky in your school.

26:40 And then that was my attitude and my approach, and it really it just took off at a certain point it took off. I remember I remember having thoughts three years in it. I'm done. I feel so lonely, like I'm by myself doing this and no one's interested. And I was outside of school about to go to emergency teaching, and I got a phone call from a a lady I wish I remember her name, and she said, I don't know anything about you. My friend just gave me your number. I'm at a conference with fifty principles you don't speak, hasn't turned up. Can you be here in an hour? I said I could beat her an hour and a half and she said, that'll do. Drive as quick as you can, please. And I went into the school and said, I'm so sorry I can't come today, and they went, what do you mean you're here? And I said no, I'm sorry. I just I'm sorry, and they said you'd never welcome back, which is fair enough.

27:27 And I got the card. I drove to this conference, and I had no schools on the books at that point. I'd exhausted my contacts and I remember thinking to myself, well, this is kind of make or break and I and it was just one of those I mean you, I've heard you speak about flow before, but it was just like that. I got up there and it just it just flowed beautifully. And it was my phone was buzzing in my back pocket heaps, and I was thinking, gosh, this is so distracting. It was Principal sending me emails as I was speaking to book me in, and we booked in forty eight. I booked in forty eight schools out of the fifty principles in the next week, and all of a sudden it just took off as a school program. And I remember, how did it get to sport?

28:09 It's a very it's an amazing story. I was playing cricket. I played cricket my entire life, and I was a captain of my side. And a guy came up to me, one of the new player's dads, and he introduced himself and he was a lovely bike. We're having a chat. He asked what I did, and I said, I talked about resilience in schools. He said, oh, our workplace could do with that, and I said all right, and he said, would you like to come and speak at my workplace? I said where do you work? And he said at the Melbourne Storm and there was the rugby league team and I thought he meant like the staff there, and I said, yeah, no. I sent me and email a join the work wolf se. He emailed me and said, it's the it's the playing group. I want the playing group to listen to you spoke. I'm a head of well being at the Melbourne Storm and I said, oh, look, this is a school program. I don't know if it's going to work for those boys, and he said, oh, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but at least we're going to try it. And I took a bit of convincing because I was thinking I didn't feel qualified.

28:58 I was like, I'm not qualified too, and then I said that to him and he said, didn't you tell me you tell stories about your life? I said yeah. He said, who's better qualified than you to tell stories about your life? And I said, okay, we'll give it a go. And I remember I was five minutes in a Billy Slater of all people, stopped me. He said, he put his hand up and I said, yes, mister Slater, and he said, can I swear on this podcast? I haven't checked, so yeah, yeah. People too. But he said this is fucking awesome. Keep going and I went, oh, I wasn't going to stop, but thank you. And I remember at that point I actually took a breath for the first time five minutes in because I was so nervous and so sit of on edge, and I actually looked around at the boys faces and I remember going, wow, this is really hitting home, like this is I've got them. This is like more than I've ever seen before. And I finished the session and then this guy, Brian feel and the well Bang offers had got up and said, I hope you enjoyed that, guys, Let's chat about what we want to do about this week and chat about it. One of the players said, can you like, when's he coming back? And I still there at the time, and I said, I'm happy to come back and spin the sad. Yeah, let's put it again this time next So I did another one next week, but when I was there the next week, the head of the NRL's well being. A lovely guy called Paul Heppenstall was there and I didn't know who was at the time, but I did the talk and he came up to me and he said, I want you to go to every club in the competition, and I want you to do seven. I want you to speak to the playing group, to their partners, to the head office, from every club to the under twenties under right ends under sixteenes, so six talks at every club. Can you

30:28 do that? And I couldn't. I was exhausted at that point from the school's work, but I said, yep, no worries. And I spent the next six months nearly killed myself go every club. But at that point then it was the few stories came out one of the boys, and I wrote abouts in the first book. One of the boys, going to his name is Martin Kennedy played for the Roosters. When I was speaking to the Rooster's players, he had his head down, arms folded, pull his hoodie over his head, and I remember thinking, I don't know who this guy is, but he hates this. He walked out as soon as the session fish players usually hang around to have a chat. He just walked straight off, and I thought, he's adding this, but I'll never forget that fune everything it was. He's kind of a scary looking guy. So I just I just for some reason his face. I just every now and again to look up, and he short of looked angry and he put his head down again. And about a year later, I did a talk in Sydney. It was just a public one at I can't remember the venue, but it was open to the public and there was about probably a thousand people there, maybe a little bit more than that. And I saw him walk in just before I started. Now, just as I was starting, he walked in with it. It looked like his mum, and I thought, well, that's weird. And I saw a few people that knows him because hes quite a well known person in Sydney. And I finished the show. I finished the talk, and I was calling him talks back then.

31:43 I called him a show now because there's lot more than just a talk now. But I finished the talk and every other crowds that I left, and he was hanging around. I saw him hanging around, and so I came out and he came up to me and his mum was patting on the back and she said tell him, and he went to talk and he couldn't. He started crying and he stopped and he put his head down and I says, everything right, and she said that's okay. Well, maybe we'll get to touch another way, and he walked out and I left the venue and he was still out in the front about twenty minutes later, and he came up to me with his mum and he said, I want you to know your talk. He said, when you when I turned up to footy that day, I had made plans to end my life. I had got everything I needed. It was in the back of my car and I was gone the way to mom and Dad's place down the beach. They weren't home for the weekend and I was going to take my life, and his mum balling her eyes out, and he said, but because of the talk he gave, I'm still here and I want you to know that. And he gave me a massive hug, and his mum gave me a massive hug, and I just stories started coming out like that, and then it gained a bit of publicity, and then it just it was the Australian cricket team and it was AFL Clubs and it was wow. The Olympics, Australia lit me team and all of a sudden, it was just this thing that just it was. It was too big for me to handle, to be honest, it was kind of and I started to Then I started to struggle, and that's what the next book, Let Go, was about.

33:07 I really started to struggle because I was being everything for everyone and I was running around. I remember Mum said to me once Mum was hated how much I was just taking off all the time. And I had a young our five year old was you know when he was one or two years old, I was I was in the state all the time, and I wanted to be home with my son. That's all I've ever wanted to do is to be a dad. But I'd booked in all these talks a year before he was born. So I was like, well, I have to go. And I remember saying to mom my Mum had come over to look after Benji and I was leaving bags of packed and I was running late for the airport. I stressed like, buddy, see your mum, sir a penny and my wife and Mom said she just shook her head. It was such a disapproving look. And I said, these people they really need me, like they really need this.

33:49 I needs. I've been told them I need to look someone. They need someone to look after them for this. And she said, and who's looking after you? And I was like, well that's at the time brushed off at the time. I look back at it and yeah, it was yeah, mums. No, you're right, mums. No. I want to talk about what happened next to you. But before I do, I just want to pick up on something you said before about you said for three years, you said yes to everything, and you said I was so stupid because I burnt myself out. And I just think that you weren't so stupid. That's what everybody does well. People who want to be successful. People will feel passionately about what they do. They do say yes to everything, and I think that's a personal You get to a point where you start to learn to say no. And I got a bit of a this is a bit of a digression. I've got a bit of a personal beef with people who say, let me give you the shortcut so that you know I make all the same mistakes that I made and I think no, every one of us has got to make our own mistakes and learn those lessons for our selves. Wouldn't you agree, like you got it when people say, no, this is what I did, and there is the mistakes I made, and this is what I let me shortcut you your road.

35:01 I'll tell you no, like it doesn't happen. Every one of us has got to learn those lessons for ourself about saying no boundaries. It's a really, really nice point and I've never thought about that, but it's actually very true. I had lunch with the guy yesterday who is wanting to do a similar thing that basically he wants to do something very similar to what I'm doing, and he just wanted to pick my brain, and I was I actually found myself not saying stuff like make sure you don't burn yourself out, make sure you don't and I was subconsciously, but I think I was. I think I was clearly thinking what you were thinking. Like, I think he's going to make a lot of mistakes. But yeah, but that's his road right now, and I will have to. You don't learn as much from a guy saying don't say like you know, I think you need to go through that point of like I was twally my thumbs for three years, so I was like, well, I'm not going to say no and I and it's funny now as a forty two year old, I am just now learning to say no to people, and gosh it, it's good.

36:01 I'm really like, it's been good for me. But it's taken a long time to get to that point. But I only arrived at it through making the mistakes, as you said, So I'm glad. Yeah, no one stopped me, and people tried to stop me, but I was like, no, no, no, I'm fine. I'm fine, I'm fine. And when you said it, I've done the same thing. So I was hearing your story going yep, I totally relate to that. I've done exactly the same thing. Like I've had to get there myself, and nobody could have told me, like no, start saying no when you when you're in it and you're doing it. You get there. Yeah. Yeah, so you at the start of the pandemic. You you know, you've got a much bigger following than what I do. But even myself having written a book called Crappy to Happy, having a podcast called Crappy to happy. The requests and the emails started coming in. Can we talk about how do we handle this, this thing we've never handled before, the pandemic, the anxiety, the toilet paper shortage.

36:52 Like what's going on? And everybody starts wanting you to help them through this thing that none of us have done before. Yeah, you know. For me at the time, and I know you can relate to this, it was like, Fuck, I've never been through a pandemic before. I can tell you what. I can tell you what some of the signs says. I can tell you what I think was going on with this. And I did three solo episodes of this podcast called Coping with COVID, like just three sort of short episodes of covering some of these topics, and they're the most downloaded episodes of all time really, so they were really needed, Like people were really looking for help at that time. So you were in the same boat. So what talk me through what happened for you?

37:32 I did the whole like, yep, yep, I'm happy to happy to chat there. And it was radio interview after like just like you like interviews and interviews and interviews, And there were some warning signs along the way that potentially I wasn't coping. I remember my daughter was eight months old at the time, because she was born February twenty twenty, and she was eight months old and she wasn't sleeping. She still doesn't sleep very well, and she was sick. She had a running nose and she had a really blocked and she was well, so she wasn't sleeping. I remember lying on the floor in her bedroom getting really I got really angry at her. I was saying, just sleep, this is just ridiculous, go to sleep. I got really angry at her. And the next morning I woke up and I was like, how do I just get angry at an eight month old who's sick like that is not I've never been angry at anyone in my entire life, and now I'm angry at my eight month old daughter. That's I remember thinking, that's I was so disappointed in myself. And then about probably a week later, I did an interview on Ed Cavalie and Dave Hughes radio show, and I'd only said the interview finished and Dave Hughes lives in Sydney, but his family is in Melbourne when he's doing this via the radio show, so he knew that people in Melbourne are tough, and he finishing knew by saying, hey, just quickly just checking how are you? How are you going? And I said, I'll never forget this. I was sitting in the in the cupboard at home to get away from the kids so I could get some space. I'm sitting in the cupbod so it was dark. H yes, yeah, exactly. I was

39:04 scrunched up in a ball in this cupboard with pennies like clothes all over my head, which is great for sound. Apparently it was. Actually, that's exactly right. So I'm hiding in pennies dresses, which sounds a bit weird. But and I have a phone up and he said how are you going? And I said I'm totally and utterly broken. And as I said that, I went I covered my mouth. I went, oh, what have I just said? This is I'm meant to be the guy? What have I just And I had this and they went quiet from it and said, oh, okay, hope you go, okay, mate, thanks for joining us. We'll see you next time, bah blah blah. And I sat there going, oh god, oh god, what have I just said? Hang? On. I haven't even admitted that to myself yet. Why have I just said that to tens of thousands of people in Sydney. And I came out of the closet. I came out of the closet and I went down the hallway and I Penny like trying to manage the breakfast and the kids and me. She said, how'd you go?

39:54 And I said, I'm not good? What do you mean? I said, I'm not coping with this. I'm not coping. I'm not a good place. And she said you're okay? And I was like crying, like I'm not. I just told they fuse of all people that I'm. Not Australia basically yeah, yeah. And and but the second I told her, I was flooded with this. You might be able to tell me this is. I don't know if it's actually toased, I don't know what it is, but I was flooded with this warm. I went from crappy to happy. I just felt I felt really positive. Yeah, I just felt really good. And I all of a sudden I sat back in that first of the day and I two things happened. I became really curious as to what I could well, I I was humbled. I felt very humble, this humility of like I'm not coping. Cool, I've just said it.

40:39 I'm not coping, I'm not good. I felt humble, and then I felt really curious, like, day, Okay, what do I need to do? What do I And that's that set me on this path to seeing a psychologist for the first time in my life, even though I've been telling everyone for the last ten years, see A, psychologists are the best things in the world, see A psycholoists are the best things in the world. But people go at you. I'm like, yeah, I will get around to it, definitely. But I started seeing and it was just so life changing and I just and every session I had with there, it was like the same things she kept saying to me. You need to let go of something. You need to let go of this. And that's why the next book was called let Go, because every session was like, you need to let go of your expectation to always feel happy, You need to let go of your ego that you are going to have the answers all the time. You need to let go of Yeah. So every time it's just just like it's perfection. You want to be perfect.

41:26 You want to do perfect talks all the time. You know, when people criticize you, that's okay, Like let go of that, that's totally fine. I'm like, no, David, I'm trying my hardest and it comes from a good place. Why people criticize me, and that's because you want to be perfect. Just let go of that. And and that's that's how there's an amazing revelation for me. And it wasn't for the pandemic, I wouldn't have I wouldn't have had Penguin s anything. When's the next book was? I was like, I don't have another book. I've written everything. Gratitude, empty, mindfuls. That's all I've got for it. But it was because of my struggles that the second book come about. I guess I'm assuming though, that the practice that you already had, like the gratitude and the empathy in the mind of mindfulness in particular, must have really put you in a good place so that when you when that crunch point came, like you said, I was able to stop and stand back and get a bit curious about that, like instead of just plowing on through, which somebody else may do, who doesn't have that foundation of mindfulness and I guess just that self awareness.

42:24 Yeah, it's a funny. It's funny you say that because I had someone say to me an interview once, so gratitude empty and mauflus didn't work then, because you struggled, and I was like, I didn't really have an answer to that, because I thought I was, I was, I was. I was quite taken off guard by that comment and I didn't see it coming. And also I don't I'm not a good arguer, so I just went to water a bit. But that's what you're right, Like, I think it put me in a position to be strong enough to go okay coping. That's what resilience is, right, Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah, to reach out, like it's one of the key aspects resilience of the ability to reach out. And I absolutely reached out. And I think you're right. I looked at person up and I'll say, hey, I just spoke to a psychologist. That's a lovely observation. Yeah, yeah, you're wrong.

43:10 As somebody who was very much working in the well being space, how you said it was life changing? What was it about seeing a psychologist for you that really shifted things for you, because I think there's a lot of people who are still sort of I say, we all sort of know in theory you should talk to a psychologist. It's a big step, and there's a lot of people who are like, what, I don't know? Am I am I broken enough? Like? Am I do I really? Is that really what I need? So for you, Hugh, what was your experience of seeing a psychologist and how did that change things? I wish I'd go into a psychologist when for my entire life for forty years I turned for twenty twenty.

43:55 For forty years, I can genuinely say I've been I've been less mental health like so blessed to be a happy ninety times sent the time I'm really happy and things would I remember I mentioned the breakup with my ex that I struggled for a year, maybe more with that, but I always had this default setting event like I was pretty happy, but and when my sister was really sick unhealthily, I kind of ignored it a bit, and then but I had moments where I go up pretty down but overall really really happy. I wish I'd seen a psychologist then, because a lot of stuff we talked about had nothing to do with the fact that I was struggling in twenty twenty with those lockdowns and everything. It really wasn't. It was things like, oh my god, this moment blew my mind. I told her a story about how I really wanted to have kids because I wanted my dad to meet my kids, because I remember I was playing cricket once and Dad came to watch and I didn't recognize him. I remember this old guy walking around the side of the ground and then I went, oh Jesus, that's Dad. My god, he looks old. And I was thirty five at the time, didn't have kids.

45:00 And I went home to Penny and I said, I know, we were planners to go to New York for a couple of years and work overseas. I really want to have kids. And I said it's because I really really want Dad to meet his grandkids. I don't want to miss out. I just felt like he looked a bit old today. And she said, that's a really good reason. And I was telling my psychologist dad. My love for Dad kept coming up a lot in the chat. Mum and Dad obviously, but this love I have for Dad, because she kept asking the kind of person I want to be. She was like, well, how do you want people to describe you? You know, how do you want to be described by your kids, by your because I was having trouble with the fact I was getting angry at my kids and I was never getting angry every and she said, well, how do you want to be described? And I said, oh, kind and humble, And we're talking about that and she said, if you realize, She said, how did you describe your dad in a couple of words?

45:43 And I said, I'm kind and humble and she said, well, it's not interesting anyway. So we got to the topic of dad and I told her that story, and then we talked more and more about Dad, and she said, I want to know more about your dad's stories. I told her that dad was an immigrant. He came to Australia as a twelve year old Strilankan boy who and he was objective a lot of racial qualification and awful stuff. But he worked so hard, you know, he worked so so hard when through school because that's his parents came to stry to give him opportunity that they never had. And you work so hard through school. Union became a dentist, and worked. He missed one day from you became a dentist when his twenty four, I think it was, and he missed one day sick for his retired when he was sixty five. And everything he ever did it was I realized now it was for us. He just wanted to give us, the kids the best opportunity ever to have the opportunities that he never had as a kid.

46:32 And anyway, we talked more and more about dad, and one day Anita mus Collog just finished the session and she said to me, you know, I think the reason you wanted to have kids was not so that. Oh I cannot say this to that crying. Even I've said told the story, I cannot say that crying. She said, the reason you wanted to have kids was not so that your dad can meet your grandkids. It was so it was so your kids could meet your dad. It's you wanted them to be connected to this humble, hard working because of my dad. Right, my dad has placed me smack bang in the center of privilege and entitlement. And I'm very aware of that. I'm a white, forty year old man, who financially stable, who lives in a nice suburb with you know, I've got everything and it's because of my dad and mum's hard work. And I'm worried that my kids are not going to you know, they'll probably go to really good schools and no, probably they'll have all these and I've always been stressed. I'm going, oh, they're going to be spoiled. So they're going to be They've got everything they ever needed. And my psychologists made me realize the reason I wanted to have kids while dad was still alive was so that my kids could meet my dad, not the other way around. Stuff like that.

47:44 You know, I would never have worked it out. I would ne woud have worked it out in a million years. And when she said that to me, we was on zoom because like down, I just sat there. I'm not exaggerating or forty five minutes. I couldn't move. I was just staring at the screen and going, oh, my god, that is such a life changing realization. I it was, but we had suffer like that. Every single session she'd point stuff out to me. I was bringing up stories that I'm told from my childhood from and they weren't deeply traumatic stories. It wasn't about trauma. It wasn't, and she would just connect the dots on all these things in my life that I didn't realize and every time she would do that, it would just the world would make my life would make a lot more sense. So, yeah, that's a very long answer.

48:25 Sorry, No, it's perfect, and I still encourage anybody to go see a psychology. Yes, yes, Unfortunately, again it is it's not it's not the cheapest, and it. Is a long way and we're a long way to go in. This country to make mental health care, you know, more accessible, so that we don't have a whole other conversation about that. But in the meantime, we've got the gratitude, mindfulness, and empathy. Which all stand you in good stead totally. But in the so the second book came out, Let Go, And as you said, it's a it's all the things that you learned that you needed to let go of. What were some of the things that you realized that you needed to let go of in order to really be, you know, the best, happiest version of yourself.

49:13 So there are seven things in the book. There are seven. There are seven. There are seven things in the book that I write about that I have to let go, But there's only three on the front cover because the publishers and I said, how are we going to choose? Out the time? Shame, expectation, and social media were the three things I most deshmind had to let go of my addiction to social media. Now they've kind of shifted a bit, but on the front I'll deal with those on the front cover of Shame. And you would know much more about this than me. But my experience is that we all experienced shame about something in our life. And shame basically is the thing. It's our not enough story. You know, I'm not enough with this and so and but we don't tell anyone. We don't talk about it because we're worried. I mean, our biggest fear is we're not going to be connected to We want to belong somewhere, and our shame is that there's a part of us that we feel like if people know more about we will not be we won't belong. And for me, it was just like I just I just had this shame of like I'm not good looking enough. I always felt that because I had a few experiences as a kid where I was told I was really funnily and I was looking back in photos.

50:16 I was a very strange looking kid. But I remember turning up to I was nine years old and I turned up to basketball this new club. It was my first time ever playing basketball team. I was so excited and I got to this training and there's a group of kids I didn't know that all been a team for a few years. And they pissed themselves laughing at what I looked like, and they called me bugs bunny, and I said, you've got the biggest teeth, the biggest eyes, And every time I went to say something to just pissed themselves laughing at me. And I didn't know I was funny looking at that point. That's the first time I because Mama, and I was like, he's such a beautiful boy. And I never knew I was funny looking. And I was like, it was such a shock, and I was so I went home that night, and knowing what I know now, I wish i'd told mom and Dad what had happened. They would have found a way to make me not feel a shit aimed of it.

51:01 Just like, but everyone looks different, darling. You all look different, and like some people think you like we think you're really beautiful and those boys don't. But that's okay, Like, well whatever, I don't know what they told me. I don't know what it was. Mum was a genius at this kind of stuff. If she'd known, she would have worked me through it to a point where but I went. I just went. I spent right in my room for hours and didn't tell them. So I told myself a story age nine. I wasn't good looking enough, and I became really ashamed of that. And I remember being on a tram in year nine and point me, you have quite insecure about it looks. And I was sitting next to there was a group of girls who went to a school, a girl or girls school. Actually it was the your girls school that I went taught at later on in life. Wow, And I realized they were impersonating what I look like. They were trying to impersonate my face and pissing themselves laughing, and that I was like, oh God, there we go. I'm not a good looking person.

51:52 So I've always had this. I remember my first ever date I went on with Penny, my wife, and she's the most I know everyone thinks is about their partner, but she's she's just stunning. And I remember sitting there going, I'm going to be pretty funny here because I am not good looking enough. I am not good looking enough for petty this person. So I was like, like, be funny, be funny, but you've got to be funny, You've got to be extremely enosty because you are not good looking enough. So it wasn't until seeing my psychologists that I sort of talked all that through and then and then I kind of let that go, you know, like and LinkedIn to my this perfection thing. I've got this like I just want to be perfect with everything I do and obviously with what I look like as well. I'm letting both those go. I was like, that's like, we all look different. I don't don't really care, like I just and I was able to let go of that shame of what look like. But we all have. For some people, that might be I'm not smart enough, I'm not successful enough, I'm not rich enough. But the way we deal with that is we share our shame story, because shame cannot survive empathy. When you share your story, someone will give.

52:54 With someone you trust or a psychologist, ideal, but if you can find someone you love and someone you trust they will break down that shot. But it's we build the story up so much more in our head than it really really needs to be. So that was a big one for me. Oh and so again just so relatable. And I think you know when you say, oh, I've got to be you know, really on a game and be as funny as possible, because I've got to make up for this other deficit that I have. Like everybody is walking around doing that, like everybody has got something, and I think most people. I had a. Conversation a while ago with doctor Nicole Lapera. She's the holistic psychologist on you know, Instagram. She got five million followers or something. Oh wow, yeah, Like she's got this amazing following. Attracts a lot of critics from within the profession too, by.

53:41 The way, I'm sure she would if she's got a big following. How all she talks about self healing and overcoming your trauma and all of this sort of stuff. But anyway, I had this. I remember saying to her that I had been reflecting that when we talk about being authentic, like how hard it actually is because most of us unknowingly walking around just this walking bundle of coping strategies, you know, like we're all going through life with our masks and our performance and our and it's a process unraveling. All of that. Like it's just this layers and layers of conditioning and things like that. Hugh, Like alone, when I was nine, I wasn't good looking at us there therefore I had to be, you know, the funny guy. Or I read in your book too, you know, like my sisters was going through the stuff my parents really says, I had to make everybody happy. Like we adopt all of these roles unconsciously, like not knowingly, and then we live our lives being this person, which becomes so habitual and so programmed that this is just who I am, when an actual fact, all it is is just a thing I've been doing for so long that I don't know any different.

54:50 It's really just a habit. So yeah, I just but to come back to why we're talking about this, which is your excellent question. A psychologist breaks this down, and I remember my psychologists saying to me, and also a mentor of mine, a guy called Ben Crow, who a lot of people heard of as Ashbarti's mindset coach. Both of them have said to me, you are worthy of love as you are. You don't need to look at the different You don't need to be You are worthy as you are. And I wish so much. I wonder if it were resonated, but I wish so much. And that's what we're starting to build into our curriculum now, this message, because I think kids need to hear at a young age, Hey, as you are right now, without looking a certain way, without having a certain amount of social media followers, you are worthy of love and belonging. Don't need to don't need to do anything else. We Hamish Blake, who everyone knows, has this amazing thing he says to his kids and he puts him to bed. And I'm charaphrasic, so I might get it wrong, but he says, well to his I think both his kids, but he was telling me. He says to his daughter, I love you for who you are exactly as you. Don't need to be anything else.

56:00 I love you for who you are right now. He says it to him every single before they go to bed. And I tried to copy that unashatment. That was like, I'm taking that. That's amazing. Every time I try. My son goes, you tell me this every night, I know, and so just hasn't quite worked. But it's a lovely message for people to hear at a young age. It is. And I recently had a I don't do very much clinical therapy work at the moment. I have got a couple of one on one clients since we can do telehealth and zoom, I've got a couple of clients. But I had the conversation with her, like I was talking to her about she was having difficulty with her kids and how she's trying to manage their behavior and if they want them to do better and be less of this and less of that. And so we had this whole conversation about when do you praise them for something other than their behavior, Like how when do you share with them that you just enjoy their company, like you just And it was a bit of a revelation because I think his parents, we're just so like this, do more of this, less of that, don't do that. You know, you're so good at that, you're clever at this, But when do you just actually share with your kids? And this is a lesson for me as well, just delight in there just who they are, Like I just I just love who you are, regardless of anything that you could do or not do, what you did wrong or what you did right.

57:21 I'm getting a lot out of this chat. I'm just listening to. I'm good with my daughter. My son's a bit can be a bit all over shop that he doesn't like hearing a lot of that stuff. But my daughter, who's too. I've turned her into this absolute love monster. Like I'm always telling I love her just NonStop. And like we had a nanny, potential nanny come over or she's now our nanny. She come over and met the kids for the second time. She's sitting there and Helsey goes, I love you. She's really turned around. Really at the moment they do it that age walk up to strangers, expectation, perfection, addiction to social media. I've i feel like, is there any final thoughts you want to share? Because I've just really noticed the time on this podcast.

58:05 Yeah, I know. Do you know what? It's my favorite place. The most important message I have is that we're all worthy of love as we are. So I think it's a really great place to summarize everything because that's what it's taken me as someone who has been fascinated since the age of twenty in What Is It Makes Us Happy, has read everything, has watched everything on the topic, has spent the last twelve years in the industry. The most important message is that we are worthy as we are of love, of affection, of belonging. We're all worthy as we are. We don't need to be doing as anything else to and we're all on this desperate like hamster wheel or treadmill or just to try and prove that we're worthy. Yeah we are, Yeah we are.

58:51 I'm on this exact same page. So that is a perfect place to wrap this up, and you will put the links to both the books in the show notes. I just want to share too with listeners that they are both so easy to read. Like you said, they're full of just relatable stories, personal stories. Thank you for your vulnerability and sharing some deeply personal stories in the book. It is what we are desperately hungry for, and I think that that connection that we get from other people's, you know, sharing their struggles. So thank you, Hugh, and thank you for your time today. It's such a pleasure. As I said, I'm a very big fan of What you're doing. And it was funny when the invitation first came through to a bit of podcast.

59:32 It's funny how the world works. I just listened to one of your episodes. I was like, this is really good stuff. I need to go through the back catalog and I was like, oh, it's a big back catalog as well. I was a lot here. So it was such a so excited you to join you. So thanks for having me, and I hope I haven't read too much. No, no, no, I'm amazing, amazing, Thank you, Pleasure Hughes two books are called The Resilience Project and his most recent is called Let Go. You can find them both at all bookstores. Also, you can find my three Crappy to Happy books in bookstores or listen on Audible for free. If you haven't already checked out my new podcast, The Confidence Coach, you can listen to that on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

1:00:14 Please check it out and let me know what you think. And I cannot wait to catch you on the next episode of Crappy to have you Listener