April 17, 2023

Life in a religious cult and finding meaning with Debbie Haski-Leventhal

Life in a religious cult and finding meaning with Debbie Haski-Leventhal
The player is loading ...
Life in a religious cult and finding meaning with Debbie Haski-Leventhal
Life in a religious cult and finding meaning with Debbie Haski-Leventhal
Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon Castro podcast player icon PocketCasts podcast player icon Podchaser podcast player icon
Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon Castro podcast player icon PocketCasts podcast player icon Podchaser podcast player icon
Season 9 Personal Growth & Healing

Debbie Haski-Leventhal grew up inside a religious cult. She escaped at 18 years old, after experiencing a life of abuse, poverty and servitude, and wondered if she’d ever experience a life of purpose and meaning.Debbie went on to become a Professor at Macquarie University, and a scholar of corporate social responsibility, responsible management education and volunteerism. Her latest book, Make it Meaningful, in which she shares her own, an other’s, stories exploring ideas of purpose, impact, values, and resilience.And today we have a jam packed conversation about everything from her time in the religious cult, and how it ultimately led her to the meaningful and impactful work she does today. And.. what you can do to find more meaning in your life and work, without giving up your life or work.You can check out Debbie’s latest book, Make it Meaningful: How to find purpose in life and work.Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypodwww.tiktok.com/crappytohappypod
Join the free 7-day Happiness Challenge:www.cassdunn.com/happiness

Connect with Cass:

www.cassdunn.com
www.instagram.com/cassdunn_xo

Contact Crappy to Happy:

Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
www.crappytohappypod.com
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypod
www.tiktok.com/@crappytohappypod


Are you a coach, therapist, service provider or solopreneur struggling with self-doubt and imposter syndrome? I'd love to talk to you! (for market research purposes only!)

Book a call with me to share your experience.

Want more great content and less ads?

Upgrade to Paid in the Spotify or Apple podcasts App to get immediate access to "Beyond Happy", the subscriber only podcast featuring bonus content, meditations and more!

Transcript
WEBVTT

1
00:00:02.680 --> 00:00:03.960
A listener production.

2
00:00:08.400 --> 00:00:12.240
Today I am joined by Debbie Haskei Leventhal. Debbie is

3
00:00:12.279 --> 00:00:15.560
the author of Make It Meaningful. She's a professor of

4
00:00:15.599 --> 00:00:19.679
management at Macquari Business School. She teaches corporate Social Responsibility.

5
00:00:20.039 --> 00:00:22.920
But today what we're talking about is her early life

6
00:00:22.960 --> 00:00:27.199
growing up in a religious cult. Debbie's mother looked to

7
00:00:27.239 --> 00:00:30.800
find meeting in this cult after a tragedy in their family,

8
00:00:31.199 --> 00:00:34.640
and at the age of eighteen, Debbie escaped having lived

9
00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:39.640
a life of abuse, poverty, and servitude. That experience ultimately

10
00:00:39.719 --> 00:00:43.479
led her to finding her own meaning in life and

11
00:00:43.520 --> 00:00:46.280
that is what she is passionate about helping others to do.

12
00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:50.880
Today today we have a jam packed conversation. We talk

13
00:00:50.920 --> 00:00:54.200
about everything from her time in that cult and how

14
00:00:54.280 --> 00:00:56.640
you can find more meaning in your life and work

15
00:00:56.880 --> 00:01:00.479
without giving up your life or your work. I know

16
00:01:00.520 --> 00:01:06.280
you'll enjoy this conversation with Debbie. Debbie, welcome to the

17
00:01:06.280 --> 00:01:07.519
Crappy a Happy Podcast.

18
00:01:08.439 --> 00:01:10.799
Thank you so much, Kas, I'm so happy to be.

19
00:01:10.799 --> 00:01:13.760
Here, and congratulations on your book, which I have been

20
00:01:13.840 --> 00:01:14.760
really enjoying.

21
00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:15.239
By the way.

22
00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:17.560
You've written a book called Make It Meaningful, How to

23
00:01:17.560 --> 00:01:19.560
find purpose in life and work, which is one of

24
00:01:19.599 --> 00:01:20.480
my favorite topics.

25
00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:21.799
Thank you.

26
00:01:22.040 --> 00:01:24.959
Obviously, in the book you talk about early experiences in

27
00:01:25.000 --> 00:01:28.000
life with which led your mum in particular, and then

28
00:01:28.040 --> 00:01:31.840
your family to joining a religious organization. Let's just say,

29
00:01:33.079 --> 00:01:35.560
following a family tragedy. Could you I think that's so

30
00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:39.560
relevant to the story and where you are now. Could

31
00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:43.280
you describe for listeners that early experience and what happened.

32
00:01:44.040 --> 00:01:46.519
Sure, and I agree it was so relevant that I

33
00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:49.319
had to share it in the book. So I grew

34
00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:53.719
up in Tel Aviv, and unfortunately, just when I was born,

35
00:01:54.120 --> 00:01:57.519
my brother, who was six years older than me, was

36
00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:03.359
diagnosed with cancer and for three years they've tried to

37
00:02:03.400 --> 00:02:06.079
battle it with whatever they could, but we're talking about

38
00:02:06.120 --> 00:02:11.520
the nineteen seventies, and so unfortunately, when I was three

39
00:02:11.560 --> 00:02:17.159
and he was nearly ten, he passed away. And the

40
00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:24.599
tragedy just brought our house down. It was so consuming

41
00:02:24.800 --> 00:02:27.919
that there was almost nothing else left. There was no

42
00:02:27.960 --> 00:02:32.759
space for anything else but grief. And I don't remember

43
00:02:32.840 --> 00:02:36.560
my brother so much, but I do remember my mother grieving,

44
00:02:36.759 --> 00:02:39.560
and it's very frightening when you were a little child

45
00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:43.360
and you just see your parents in the depth of despair,

46
00:02:44.639 --> 00:02:48.360
and I remember her being so so sad, and as

47
00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:51.199
a little girl, I tried to make her happy in

48
00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:54.919
my own little way, which I very soon learned that

49
00:02:55.039 --> 00:03:00.879
I was not enough to do. So two years she

50
00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:05.400
was just consumed by sadness until she stembled upon the

51
00:03:05.520 --> 00:03:10.759
Kabbala Center early days in Tel Aviv and she met

52
00:03:10.840 --> 00:03:14.960
with Rabbi berg the rav who helped her to somehow

53
00:03:15.039 --> 00:03:20.039
impart meaning into my brother's death. So in her own

54
00:03:20.199 --> 00:03:24.280
meaning search, she got us all into this very religious

55
00:03:25.039 --> 00:03:31.560
organization with very strong leadership, odd rituals, a very strong

56
00:03:31.639 --> 00:03:37.159
sense of togetherness, some really weird things that were happening

57
00:03:37.199 --> 00:03:40.240
there that I share in the book, all of which

58
00:03:40.360 --> 00:03:43.360
led me to think today that it's probably a cult,

59
00:03:43.479 --> 00:03:48.159
or a cult like organization, or a controlling organization. And

60
00:03:48.240 --> 00:03:51.400
this was years before Madonna and other celebrities joined the

61
00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:55.960
Kabbala Centa, but we were the first devotees to be

62
00:03:56.120 --> 00:04:02.919
part of this organization and it was everything. It was

63
00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:06.639
just everything. It meant everything from the way we think,

64
00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:09.680
to the way we behave, to what we do, to

65
00:04:10.759 --> 00:04:14.120
our life goals, and to also what gave us meaning

66
00:04:14.199 --> 00:04:17.040
in life. So when I left it at the age

67
00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:20.480
of eighteen and a half, after seeing too much and

68
00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:23.839
not being able to continue. I had to go through

69
00:04:23.879 --> 00:04:27.920
my own meaning search and it was very difficult. It

70
00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:34.639
was very scary, very almost depressing in a way, but

71
00:04:34.839 --> 00:04:39.279
coming out of it was also very liberating, which led

72
00:04:39.319 --> 00:04:41.839
me to where I am today. Or'll talk about that later,

73
00:04:42.600 --> 00:04:44.759
and that's why I had to share my story on

74
00:04:44.839 --> 00:04:46.519
writing a book about meaning searching.

75
00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:51.279
Yeah, you've probably described that really well.

76
00:04:51.319 --> 00:04:53.680
I was going to ask you, you know the Kabbala,

77
00:04:53.720 --> 00:04:56.240
it does you have described it very much like there's

78
00:04:56.240 --> 00:04:59.959
a lot of cult like behaviors in that organization.

79
00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:02.480
And I mean, it's not on the topic.

80
00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:04.279
Of meaning, but I'm just wondering if you can describe

81
00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:06.160
what some of those kind of.

82
00:05:07.759 --> 00:05:08.800
Strategies are.

83
00:05:09.079 --> 00:05:13.839
I guess that they use to have people become so

84
00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:18.720
devoted and to become so committed to those kinds of organizations,

85
00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:20.920
not just for Cabbala, but you know, there are others.

86
00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:21.560
Of course.

87
00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:26.879
Absolutely, there were a few strategies that they used to

88
00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:31.519
control who we are and our identity, so anything from

89
00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:35.319
what we were wearing, for example, on the Sabbath. On Shabbat,

90
00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:39.759
we were all wearing this white clothes and we all

91
00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:42.519
had the red string on our left wrist which you

92
00:05:42.519 --> 00:05:45.680
could still see today with the devotees from a Donna

93
00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:49.560
to everyone else in the center. But one of the

94
00:05:49.560 --> 00:05:53.639
things that they've done is change people's names. So our

95
00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:57.040
name is such an important part of our identity. It's

96
00:05:57.079 --> 00:05:59.800
one of the first words that we learned to recognize

97
00:05:59.800 --> 00:06:04.480
as babies. We just become very attached to our names.

98
00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:08.160
And when I was seven, the Ralph decided to change

99
00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:13.079
my name from Adi, which means jewel in Hebrew, to Devora,

100
00:06:13.319 --> 00:06:17.839
after the biblical prophet. And it wasn't just that I

101
00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:20.160
got a name change and had to go and change

102
00:06:20.199 --> 00:06:25.160
it in my idea, but that there was a whole

103
00:06:25.240 --> 00:06:29.759
ritual of being reborn. So there is a ritual when

104
00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:34.759
a baby is born in Judaism where you provide this

105
00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:38.439
baby with a name, and so the same ritual was

106
00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:41.639
applied when people got their name changed. And I was

107
00:06:41.639 --> 00:06:45.040
actually one of the first members of the Kabbala Center

108
00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:47.759
to get a name change. But now it's almost so

109
00:06:47.800 --> 00:06:52.120
common that even Madonna became Esther. Everyone gets a name change,

110
00:06:52.160 --> 00:06:55.639
and it's a way for the Kabbala Center to create

111
00:06:55.839 --> 00:06:59.759
a new identity where you are nothing but a member

112
00:07:00.199 --> 00:07:03.360
of the Kabbala Center, and you have to devote your

113
00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:08.199
everything to the center. There were also some really odd rituals,

114
00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:13.360
some of which involve nudity. So we would, for example,

115
00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:17.399
go an excursion to the Sea of Galilee, and we

116
00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:22.120
would all men and women would be separate, and they

117
00:07:22.160 --> 00:07:26.959
would just dive into the sea completely naked. So imagine

118
00:07:26.959 --> 00:07:31.120
you're with one hundred naked women and you're only ten

119
00:07:31.319 --> 00:07:35.399
or eleven. It could be quite traumatizing. And they all

120
00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:40.120
dive into the sea seven times to purify for their scenes.

121
00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:44.279
Those who were in the US, so when I was

122
00:07:44.600 --> 00:07:47.839
about ten or eleven, the Ravinese family moved to the US,

123
00:07:47.879 --> 00:07:51.040
and when I was twelve, we joined them, and there

124
00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:53.879
was a growing center there in New York first and

125
00:07:53.920 --> 00:07:56.639
then in la and those who were in New York

126
00:07:56.759 --> 00:08:00.680
also rolled in the snow naked to purify. Four the scenes,

127
00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:06.040
we would slaughter chickens to purify for our scenes. And

128
00:08:06.079 --> 00:08:08.759
I'm talking about, you know, my father taking a chicken,

129
00:08:09.519 --> 00:08:12.600
circling it above my head at a very young age

130
00:08:12.680 --> 00:08:16.079
and saying, this is your atonement. This chicken is going

131
00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:18.680
to go to death and you're going to go to life.

132
00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:21.160
And then they would just slaughter the chicken in front

133
00:08:21.199 --> 00:08:24.160
of my very young eyes and tell me to cover

134
00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:28.079
the blood of the chicken with sand. So all these

135
00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:33.519
rituals also provided meaning into what we were doing. They

136
00:08:33.639 --> 00:08:36.799
gave us a sense of stability. We knew what to expect.

137
00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:42.399
They also differentiated between insiders and outsiders, because if you

138
00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:44.799
were not part of the cabalacenter and you're just walking

139
00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:48.240
around it, sometimes in the middle of the night, you

140
00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:51.720
would go, what the heck are these people doing. So

141
00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:56.159
for those who were insiders, we knew what these rituals meant,

142
00:08:56.240 --> 00:09:00.480
and that was also part of controlling the members and

143
00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:04.919
making them feel together. But look, cults are never all bad,

144
00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:08.120
otherwise people wouldn't join them. It also gave us a

145
00:09:08.159 --> 00:09:12.360
really strong sense of meeting. It helped my mother and

146
00:09:12.440 --> 00:09:17.000
my family somewhat heal from the tragedy, and it gaves

147
00:09:17.080 --> 00:09:21.320
us such a strong sense of togetherness that I don't

148
00:09:21.320 --> 00:09:25.080
think I've ever experienced again in my life, such a

149
00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:31.679
strong sense of togetherness. Were also glued together, and that's

150
00:09:31.720 --> 00:09:35.519
something that sometimes even today, without missing the Kabbala Center

151
00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:39.000
at all, I sometimes missed that sense of togetherness.

152
00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:43.159
Yeah, I think that's so interesting that you have that

153
00:09:43.240 --> 00:09:47.320
perspective where we haven't talked about you were.

154
00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:53.240
Abused in that Kabbala center. You were as the Burghs who.

155
00:09:53.080 --> 00:09:56.600
Were the founders right of the Kabbala. As they became

156
00:09:57.000 --> 00:10:00.000
more and more and more wealthy, all of the members

157
00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:04.559
became more and more and more abused and devalued and

158
00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:11.600
almost living in poverty, like really horrendous conditions at some points.

159
00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:12.639
But you can.

160
00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:15.679
Still look back on that and say, I can still

161
00:10:15.720 --> 00:10:20.080
see that there's some There was some positive benefits.

162
00:10:19.639 --> 00:10:23.840
Some beauty, Yes, there was some beauty. And look, as

163
00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:26.480
you said, there was a lot of abuse. So there

164
00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:30.039
are used to abuse the members. And I remember him

165
00:10:30.080 --> 00:10:35.559
specifically humiliating my father quite often, calling him names, mocking

166
00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:39.679
him in front of us, which was very difficult as

167
00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:43.039
little children to see your father being humiliated like that

168
00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:45.679
in front of everyone. And he did it to people

169
00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:49.679
for the smallest scenes, Yeah, the smallest things. They didn't

170
00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:53.840
bring enough money in or they spent too much or whatever.

171
00:10:54.600 --> 00:10:58.399
They could be called satan just for doing that, So

172
00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:02.480
that was very scary. I was also sexually abused by

173
00:11:02.639 --> 00:11:05.600
two members of the center, and I know of other

174
00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:08.039
stories which I couldn't put in the book because they

175
00:11:08.039 --> 00:11:12.320
were not mine to share, But there was some abuse.

176
00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:15.720
There was also I don't know if it's poverty, but

177
00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:18.639
thinking about it now, and I didn't put it in

178
00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:23.759
the book, it almost resembled modern slavery, yes, right, I

179
00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:26.639
would say a lot of us were entrapped in the center.

180
00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:30.440
And for example, when I went to Paris, I couldn't

181
00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:34.039
just leave. I was there. I was stuck in one

182
00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:37.440
small apartment with fourteen people. Were three girls sleeping in

183
00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:40.799
one bedroom, one of which was sleeping under the bed,

184
00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:44.039
and I had to go every morning and do what

185
00:11:44.080 --> 00:11:47.679
they call in the Kabbala center harisha or plowing, where

186
00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:50.039
you have to go knock on doors all day and

187
00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:54.080
try to sell their books and bring holy money. They

188
00:11:54.120 --> 00:11:59.000
used to call it bring in holy money. And it

189
00:11:59.080 --> 00:12:02.360
was just very difful But I was trapped. I couldn't

190
00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:04.240
just go or say I want to go home, and

191
00:12:04.279 --> 00:12:07.279
they would just say yeah, okay. So I was there

192
00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:10.320
until they decided to release me. And then when they

193
00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:13.720
released me, all broken, I came home and I decided

194
00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:15.919
I no longer want to be part of the center.

195
00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:19.679
And when you say released you, they almost like they

196
00:12:19.720 --> 00:12:22.720
sacked you me out, like they threw you out because

197
00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:25.720
you weren't bringing enough money in that's.

198
00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:27.000
Right to the center.

199
00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:32.639
So a few years earlier it started this whole money

200
00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:35.919
making machine. And I remember when we were working and

201
00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:39.200
I started doing the plowing since I was sixteen, and

202
00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:42.320
I would go around in Tel Aviv and other places

203
00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:45.399
and sell the books. And even though we were not

204
00:12:45.559 --> 00:12:48.960
being paid, we had to write down a report every

205
00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:52.480
single day, how many books we've sold, how much money

206
00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:55.519
we brought in, even how much money we were able

207
00:12:55.600 --> 00:13:00.960
to get in what we call charity. So people wouldn't

208
00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:03.519
want to buy the books, would tell them, if you

209
00:13:03.559 --> 00:13:07.240
give some money for charity, and by charity we me

210
00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:11.440
in the center, charity could save you from death, so

211
00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:14.120
who knows what might happen to you tomorrow, And by

212
00:13:14.159 --> 00:13:17.440
giving some money, you're going to protect yourself. So that

213
00:13:17.639 --> 00:13:20.919
was another way for us to milk people for money.

214
00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:23.639
And so we had to write these reports, and I

215
00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:27.799
knew that Karen was going over them Karen Berg, and

216
00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:32.600
it just became more and more almost obsessed with money,

217
00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:35.399
and it just felt like it was becoming a money

218
00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:39.159
making machine. And the Birds became more and more wealthy

219
00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:39.720
every year.

220
00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:43.840
And you also describe the Burgs as being people who

221
00:13:44.840 --> 00:13:50.320
really probably started out with positive intentions, but slowly over

222
00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:53.000
time became consumed by that.

223
00:13:53.080 --> 00:13:55.240
I don't think they will be the first people in

224
00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:57.679
human history who were changed by power and my.

225
00:13:57.840 --> 00:13:58.960
Power and money exactly.

226
00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:02.759
And so yes, I think they really started something with

227
00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:06.279
good intention. Let me just go back one step and

228
00:14:06.600 --> 00:14:11.000
explain that kabbala is part of Jewish mysticism, and for

229
00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:14.960
centuries it was believed that only men over the age

230
00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:19.799
of forty, who have studied every other aspect of Jewish

231
00:14:19.960 --> 00:14:26.480
scholarly work, were entitled to even start studying kabbala, but

232
00:14:26.600 --> 00:14:31.039
it was considered sacred and secret knowledge that was only

233
00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:34.759
meant for the best few. What the Birds decided to

234
00:14:34.840 --> 00:14:39.559
do was to make this knowledge accessible to everyone, including women,

235
00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:44.279
which was really unheard of. That's why they were boycotted

236
00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:47.559
by the ultra Orthodox from day one. So I think

237
00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:50.440
they meant well. I think they're meant to start something

238
00:14:50.919 --> 00:14:55.960
spiritual and help people find meaning and happiness and spread

239
00:14:56.000 --> 00:15:00.360
what they call the light. But power and money, in

240
00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:03.200
my view, changed them so much that it just became

241
00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:07.000
the spirituality just became a means to the end instead

242
00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:07.960
of the end itself.

243
00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:11.039
Yeah, and I think important to point out too that

244
00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:14.320
while in the end. I think you were eighteen when

245
00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:18.600
you left the Kabbalah, when you left the center. But

246
00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:21.879
for that period of time, for all of those weird

247
00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:26.200
rituals and those unpleasant experiences that you endured, you were

248
00:15:26.360 --> 00:15:31.120
very committed, such as the process of indoctrination and the

249
00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:34.519
power of that sense of community and belonging, isn't it.

250
00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:38.320
I would go as far as saying that I was brainwashed.

251
00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:42.200
I was so devoted that if anyone would speak against

252
00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:45.919
the Burghs, I could go into a fistfight with them.

253
00:15:45.919 --> 00:15:48.799
And I was a tiny girl, but I was just

254
00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:54.279
so devoted. I really wanted to become better member of

255
00:15:54.320 --> 00:15:56.919
the kabbala sent, a better follower of the Burgs and

256
00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:00.720
the light, sell more books, bring in wholy money, and

257
00:16:00.759 --> 00:16:06.320
spread the you know, the notion and the knowledge of Kabbalah.

258
00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:10.360
I was such a strong believer that I was willing

259
00:16:10.440 --> 00:16:13.679
to do anything for them. Seriously, we were willing to

260
00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:18.159
die for them, and we believed anything that we were told.

261
00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:20.519
I didn't put it in the book, but for example,

262
00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:24.399
there was this whole notion that the birds can teleport.

263
00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:28.919
So if for example, we were all going somewhere and

264
00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:31.559
they got there a little bit before us. No one

265
00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:35.320
thought that maybe Karen was speeding, but that probably they

266
00:16:35.360 --> 00:16:40.639
were teleporting, which they did not deny. So there was

267
00:16:40.759 --> 00:16:43.679
really like such strong set of beliefs that they were

268
00:16:44.759 --> 00:16:49.080
holy people, almost like Massiah like, and we were willing

269
00:16:49.159 --> 00:16:53.000
to do anything for them, which meant that leaving the

270
00:16:53.039 --> 00:16:57.960
Center was very, very difficult. It was what gave my

271
00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:02.360
life meaning, and were told that outside the Center there

272
00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:05.240
is no life, there is no meaning. So when I

273
00:17:05.319 --> 00:17:08.240
left the Center, I honestly thought that I'm going to

274
00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:12.440
leave a meaningless, empty life. And if you look at

275
00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:15.039
me now, and people who knows me would love it.

276
00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:17.640
And it's like, I don't know Bill Gates thinking at

277
00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:19.880
the age of nineteen that he would forever be poor,

278
00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:23.880
but that's how I felt. I felt like my life

279
00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:25.599
is going to be meaningless.

280
00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:32.759
So I can only imagine how difficult and frightening that

281
00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:35.839
must have been to leave the Center when it was

282
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:41.319
really all you had ever known. So where did you begin, Debbie,

283
00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:45.720
to start to turn things around and to find a

284
00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:49.200
new sense of meaning, a new sense of self, a

285
00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:50.200
new sense of identity.

286
00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:54.000
It was very scary. I've spoken to a lot of

287
00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:57.079
people who lost their religion since I've published a book,

288
00:17:57.119 --> 00:17:59.960
people reach out to me and they share the scene

289
00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:04.960
terrifying experience that the ground you were walking on was

290
00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:07.359
taken away from you. When you were left with nothing

291
00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:10.480
but abase and you were just walking on thin air,

292
00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:13.880
you have nothing to hold onto for a little while,

293
00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:17.640
and it's very difficult. So I felt like, Okay, Firstly,

294
00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:20.880
everything I thought about the Kabbala Center, most of it

295
00:18:20.920 --> 00:18:23.440
turned out to be false. So what about all my

296
00:18:23.480 --> 00:18:26.599
other beliefs in life, all the dogmas that I grew

297
00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:31.200
up with. I need to closely examine each one of them.

298
00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:34.240
So I went through six months of doing that at

299
00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:36.680
the age of eighteen and a half. I have a

300
00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:42.799
journal I'll show you. So I still have this falling

301
00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:45.359
apart journal that I wrote when I was eighteen and

302
00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:49.039
a half, and I sat down and I just wrote

303
00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:52.480
my thoughts. I wrote, what do I believe in? Do

304
00:18:52.519 --> 00:18:55.039
I believe in God? Do I believe in Judaism? Do

305
00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:58.680
I believe in religion? So I was looking through all

306
00:18:58.759 --> 00:19:01.960
the myth and story and proofs that were giving to

307
00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:04.799
us and trying in my own little mind to verify

308
00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:08.400
or disprove them based on what I know was true

309
00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:12.240
and I've started with only the basic things of what

310
00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:15.440
do I know, what can I see? And so I

311
00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:19.359
wrote all these ideas and stories. I was thinking a

312
00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:23.720
lot about the psychological need for religion and God and

313
00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:28.559
how the old notion of God has evolved over the years.

314
00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:31.680
I was thinking about why people have such a need

315
00:19:31.720 --> 00:19:36.519
for ultimate truths that I'm right, you're wrong, this is

316
00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:39.599
my God, this is your God. Therefore I'm gonna kill you.

317
00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:43.839
And it was just really interesting to look at it

318
00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:46.079
from a psychological point of view, even though I had

319
00:19:46.200 --> 00:19:50.599
no background in psychology, and it was not easy, but

320
00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:53.000
it was also for the first time in my life,

321
00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:55.839
I feel I was so privileged to take these six

322
00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:59.079
months and just look into what I believe in. I

323
00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:01.880
don't think many people will have this privilege of taking

324
00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:07.720
this time off to just philosophize, and so I decided

325
00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:11.119
these are my values. I'm going to be an honest person,

326
00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:15.640
compassionate person who cares about humans and animals. I decided

327
00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:19.920
to become vegetarian. I was so traumatized by the rituals

328
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:23.000
with the chickens that I was holding and patting and

329
00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:25.240
then they were slaughtered before my very eyes, and the

330
00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:29.359
next day we were always served chicken schnitzel, and I

331
00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:32.279
was like, Okay, I don't want that anymore. I can't

332
00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:37.440
detach myself from that suffering, and I don't want to

333
00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:42.519
enjoy anything that was created through human or animal suffering.

334
00:20:43.559 --> 00:20:45.880
And I'm still trying to do that. It's not always easy,

335
00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:49.680
but I'm trying to live by that rule and value.

336
00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:53.359
And so I've just built my own set of values

337
00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:57.279
from scratch and my own behavior and my own set

338
00:20:57.279 --> 00:20:59.160
of beliefs. And then at the age of twenty, I

339
00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:02.680
decided to go and study philosophy at the Hebrew University

340
00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:08.680
and continue this meaning searching journey with my first degree.

341
00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:13.440
You're so right, So many people do not have that privilege,

342
00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:16.240
especially at such a young age. I think people over time,

343
00:21:16.279 --> 00:21:19.200
as you get older, you might start to question certain

344
00:21:19.240 --> 00:21:21.000
things you've grown up with, or things that you've been

345
00:21:21.039 --> 00:21:25.359
taught or that you've never questioned before. But the extreme

346
00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:28.759
of your experience, you know, obviously led you to have

347
00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:33.839
a really deep dive really early on. So in some

348
00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:36.920
ways I guess that's an upside as well. That's obviously

349
00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:37.839
served you well.

350
00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:40.839
Please, and I really am. I know it wasn't easy.

351
00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:43.319
I'm not going to sugarcoat it, but I feel so

352
00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:46.519
lucky that I was able to do that because that

353
00:21:46.599 --> 00:21:50.480
really led me to a meaningful life which I live today.

354
00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:53.720
That little fear the age of eighteen and a half

355
00:21:53.799 --> 00:21:57.359
that my life is going to be meaningless made me

356
00:21:57.680 --> 00:22:02.119
such a reluctant warrior for meaning and happiness in the

357
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:05.640
profound way, which we're probably going to talk about, but

358
00:22:05.880 --> 00:22:09.599
it just my whole life then became about volunteering and

359
00:22:09.640 --> 00:22:14.039
giving and service, and that was my way of creating

360
00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:17.480
a small impact in the world and finding a sense

361
00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:19.599
of meaningfulness in what I do.

362
00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:22.359
You make the distinction.

363
00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:24.799
I was interested when I was reading your book about

364
00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:29.039
the term meaningfulness. You use the term meaningfulness a lot,

365
00:22:29.079 --> 00:22:31.279
and at first I was thinking, it seems like a

366
00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:34.200
long way to just say meaning. But for you, there

367
00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:37.079
is a distinction, isn't there between meaning and meaningfulness? So

368
00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:38.200
can you please explain that?

369
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:43.119
Sure? So I actually start a chapter one with explaining

370
00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:44.000
the meaning of meaning.

371
00:22:44.119 --> 00:22:46.920
Yeah, So I say, look, I love that because I'm

372
00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:49.279
all about definitions. I'm always saying we need to define

373
00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:50.240
what we're talking about.

374
00:22:50.359 --> 00:22:51.319
So I love that you did that.

375
00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:55.000
And you know, I've read a lot about meaningfulness and

376
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:57.279
meaning and meaning at work and meaning in life. And

377
00:22:57.319 --> 00:22:59.720
I was like, what is what do you mean by meaning?

378
00:23:00.440 --> 00:23:03.519
And so I thought, okay, let's break this up. So

379
00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:07.000
oftentimes when we think about meaning, we think about what

380
00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:10.559
is the meaning of a word, so the linguistic meaning

381
00:23:10.599 --> 00:23:13.160
of it. So the example I use in the book

382
00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:15.920
is the meaning of the word house. So when I

383
00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:19.480
say the word house, if you speak English, you'd probably

384
00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:24.359
imagine some kind of a building, a dwelling, walls, ceiling, roof.

385
00:23:24.519 --> 00:23:27.559
It might be you know, different kind of houses, but

386
00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:30.359
you would think about a house. You will not think

387
00:23:30.359 --> 00:23:33.880
about a dog. And then there is the emotional meaning

388
00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:37.640
that we attached towards. So house is one word, but

389
00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:41.440
home is a very emotional word for so many of us.

390
00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:44.559
And when I was stuck in Paris, and I don't

391
00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:47.519
share it in the book, there was one phrase that

392
00:23:47.599 --> 00:23:51.119
I kept saying to myself all the time, I want

393
00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:53.119
to go home. I want to go home. I want

394
00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:56.000
to go home. It became such a mantra for me

395
00:23:56.079 --> 00:23:59.400
that for years later, even when I was home, if

396
00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:02.920
I was this stressed, my brain was saying I want

397
00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:05.279
to go home. I want to go home, which meant

398
00:24:05.319 --> 00:24:07.559
for me, I want to go to safety. I want

399
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:09.880
to go to a place where I feel valued and

400
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:13.200
a sense of belonging. I no longer say it in

401
00:24:13.240 --> 00:24:16.559
my head, but it was really years in recovering from

402
00:24:16.599 --> 00:24:19.039
that sense of I want to go home because home

403
00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:23.039
is such an emotionally loaded word. For some people, it's

404
00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:25.599
a warm and fuzzy word. For some people, it's a

405
00:24:25.720 --> 00:24:28.920
very difficult word. But when we say home, there is

406
00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:32.240
an emotional meaning to it. And now there is the

407
00:24:32.359 --> 00:24:36.960
meaning of what we call meaning in the same notion

408
00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:42.559
of meaningful work, that it's significant, that it matters, that

409
00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:46.319
it makes a difference in someone else's life. And that's

410
00:24:46.359 --> 00:24:49.440
when a lot of people write about meaning and finding

411
00:24:49.480 --> 00:24:52.680
meaning in work and in life. They talk about finding

412
00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:57.160
this sense of mattering, that what I do is important,

413
00:24:57.319 --> 00:25:01.039
that what I do is valued, and that that, for me,

414
00:25:01.319 --> 00:25:05.039
after years of research, comes from the idea of service

415
00:25:05.039 --> 00:25:09.480
and impact. So how can you find meaning and meaningfulness?

416
00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:12.960
And I use the word meaningfulness because I love the

417
00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:16.759
fullness of it. I like that it's about being full

418
00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:20.720
of meaning, and that's why I use the word meaningful.

419
00:25:20.759 --> 00:25:24.000
It was actually the original name of the book was Meaningfulness,

420
00:25:24.200 --> 00:25:28.279
and then we could really play with that and understand

421
00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:31.440
what it means to be full of meaning. It's like

422
00:25:32.119 --> 00:25:37.279
being so rich, having such ample sources of meaning in

423
00:25:37.319 --> 00:25:42.079
your life that you are almost protected against adversity and

424
00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:43.960
other things that are happening in your life.

425
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:47.880
And I think it's really clear that having a sense

426
00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:50.759
of meaning or purpose in life is so fundamental in

427
00:25:50.799 --> 00:25:52.599
life and at work, like you say, it is so

428
00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:58.799
fundamental to life satisfaction, just to happiness. Essentially, you talk

429
00:25:58.839 --> 00:26:02.440
about purpose as well and also make the distinction between

430
00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:05.440
meaning and purpose. So for listeners, can you describe what

431
00:26:05.480 --> 00:26:07.720
that distinction is? I think this is really important to

432
00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:09.640
really dig into what do we mean when we talk

433
00:26:09.640 --> 00:26:12.759
about having a sense of purpose and how does that

434
00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:15.519
relate to having a life that feels meaningful?

435
00:26:16.079 --> 00:26:19.880
Absolutely, And for me it was also something that I've

436
00:26:19.960 --> 00:26:23.240
learned how to distinguish between purpose and meaningfulness because they're

437
00:26:23.240 --> 00:26:27.160
often used interchangeably. So a purpose is a reason for

438
00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:30.559
which something exists or for which something it was created.

439
00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:33.279
And I often like to ask people to just look

440
00:26:33.319 --> 00:26:36.160
around them and look at all the objects on your

441
00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:40.599
desk or in your office, in your car, everything around

442
00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:45.759
you was created for a certain purpose. So a glass

443
00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:48.319
of water was created so we can drink easily. This

444
00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:52.720
microphone was created to capture my voice in a better way,

445
00:26:52.759 --> 00:26:55.599
and my computer my mouth, everything around me in my

446
00:26:55.720 --> 00:27:00.680
desk was created for a reason. But when the objects

447
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:07.240
stops serving this purpose, it doesn't work anymore. We dim

448
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:10.680
it broken and we throw it away. And so one

449
00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:12.400
of the thoughts that I had when I was writing

450
00:27:12.440 --> 00:27:15.440
the book was maybe the reason that so many of

451
00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:20.279
us walk the earth feeling somewhat broken is because we

452
00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:25.319
don't leave a purposeful life, and that could really lead

453
00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:28.079
to a sense of meaning. And that's why I had

454
00:27:28.119 --> 00:27:33.079
to almost dissect what I mean by purpose and meaning

455
00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:36.880
and help people or provide them with tools to help

456
00:27:36.920 --> 00:27:39.920
them find a more purposeful life which could lead to

457
00:27:40.039 --> 00:27:43.119
higher levels of purpose. So the way I try to

458
00:27:43.160 --> 00:27:49.079
capture it is that meaningfulness and passion can be seen

459
00:27:49.119 --> 00:27:52.480
as the fuel of the car, the petrol, but the

460
00:27:52.519 --> 00:27:55.359
purpose is the direction in which the car is going.

461
00:27:55.839 --> 00:27:58.960
So if you have a purpose, you know where you're going,

462
00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:02.240
what you want to achieve, and that fills you up

463
00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:06.440
with the fuel that helps you get to this destination.

464
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:14.839
I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the

465
00:28:14.839 --> 00:28:17.759
benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are

466
00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:20.599
enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe

467
00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:22.960
so that you get notified when you apps drop and

468
00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:25.480
head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen

469
00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:34.400
and leave us a rating and review. You mentioned that

470
00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:38.640
there are three aspects of your life that relate to purpose.

471
00:28:39.720 --> 00:28:41.400
Can you talk about what those three things are.

472
00:28:42.039 --> 00:28:45.680
That's what I call the tip model, and I feel

473
00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:48.440
like it's my biggest tip in the book. There's one

474
00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:50.480
thing you can take away from this book.

475
00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:51.640
To pay attention everybody.

476
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:56.000
This is this money thing for you you tuned into.

477
00:28:56.880 --> 00:29:01.519
So the tip model stands for talent, impact, and passion.

478
00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:08.279
So by talent, I don't mean you're acrobatic ability, and

479
00:29:08.359 --> 00:29:10.319
I don't mean that you have to be you know,

480
00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:14.519
Arthur Rubinstein and play the piano amazingly well. By talent,

481
00:29:14.680 --> 00:29:19.000
I mean everything that we know, our skills, our knowledge,

482
00:29:20.279 --> 00:29:24.680
the education that we obtained, set of tasks that we

483
00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:29.640
know how to do, and that's our talent. So for example,

484
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:34.119
for Ucas, you always had a talent for connecting people.

485
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:37.920
You wanted to help people. You became a psychologist, but

486
00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:43.680
you also have the ability to create these fantastic interviews

487
00:29:43.720 --> 00:29:46.759
by listening to people and asking great questions, which also

488
00:29:46.920 --> 00:29:50.440
make your podcast so awesome. Yes, there was a little

489
00:29:50.440 --> 00:29:55.599
bit of flattery there, thank you. But you also have

490
00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:59.480
some passion, and that passion could be something that brings

491
00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:02.559
you jaw or something on the other hand, that could

492
00:30:02.559 --> 00:30:07.000
make you very angry. For me, for example, animals suffering

493
00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:10.079
is one thing that really breaks my heart and brings

494
00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:12.759
tears to my eyes, and I want to do more

495
00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:17.920
about that. I want to try and some way address

496
00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:22.799
animal suffering in the meat industry and the battery cages

497
00:30:22.839 --> 00:30:24.599
and so on, and I do it in my own

498
00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:29.319
small way. But that could be human rights, women rights, refugees,

499
00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:34.759
climate change, environmental action, and so on and so on.

500
00:30:34.839 --> 00:30:38.119
There's so many things that could be passionate about. And

501
00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:41.519
from what I can see, for you, it's about people's wellbeing,

502
00:30:41.799 --> 00:30:45.519
the ability to use your knowledge and talent to increase

503
00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:49.759
people's quality of life and happiness and well being. And

504
00:30:49.799 --> 00:30:52.720
then the secret of the book is how do you

505
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:56.519
tie the two of them to create a positive impact

506
00:30:56.680 --> 00:30:58.880
in the world. So if you want to leave a

507
00:30:58.920 --> 00:31:03.000
more purposeful life, you need to tie your talent and

508
00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:07.319
your passion to your ability to create a positive impact,

509
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:12.240
and that could work in different ways. So it could be, Okay,

510
00:31:12.279 --> 00:31:15.920
this is what I know. I'm a photographer, I'm a filmmaker,

511
00:31:16.119 --> 00:31:19.799
I'm a teacher. How can I utilize my knowledge and

512
00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:23.240
my skills to create something good in the world. Or

513
00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:27.119
it could be I want to address the issue of

514
00:31:27.720 --> 00:31:31.559
climate change or refugees. What skills do I need to

515
00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:36.759
develop to help me achieve this goal? And so by

516
00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:42.160
continuously create this triangle, you can leave a more purposeful life.

517
00:31:42.519 --> 00:31:44.599
So I don't subscribe to the idea that there is

518
00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:47.359
one purpose and that you just need to discover it.

519
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:50.279
Some people do it. Some people will have a light

520
00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:53.160
bulb moment where they think, oh, this is what I

521
00:31:53.240 --> 00:31:56.200
need to do. And I've heard people talk about a

522
00:31:56.319 --> 00:31:58.880
light bulb moment, but for many of us, we don't

523
00:31:58.920 --> 00:32:03.000
have that light bulb moment. And so it's really about

524
00:32:03.160 --> 00:32:07.799
how do I think very programmatically about what I want

525
00:32:07.880 --> 00:32:11.839
to contribute to what I want to help achieve, and

526
00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:16.559
how do I do that by utilizing or developing my

527
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:19.720
skills and knowledge and my passion.

528
00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:24.720
I love everything about that, and I have shared some

529
00:32:24.759 --> 00:32:28.160
of those same messages in my own books as well.

530
00:32:29.079 --> 00:32:30.799
I think there can be like you said, there's not

531
00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:33.799
this one big purpose that you're not born for this

532
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:36.119
one thing because it's so much pressure in that. I

533
00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:38.759
also think that that advice to follow your passion can

534
00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:41.960
be you know, high pressure for people. I don't know,

535
00:32:42.039 --> 00:32:44.240
I don't know what I'm passionate about. Like we think

536
00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:47.400
there has to be lightning bolts. So what is some

537
00:32:47.480 --> 00:32:50.799
of the advice that you offer, Debbie Fault? How people

538
00:32:50.839 --> 00:32:53.799
can just begin to get curious about those things? Where

539
00:32:53.799 --> 00:32:55.680
do people start if they're a bit like, oh, I

540
00:32:55.720 --> 00:32:58.400
don't know, Like I'm just busy doing my job and

541
00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:02.160
raising my kids and who's you know, like the passion

542
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:02.680
is missing?

543
00:33:02.839 --> 00:33:05.599
Yeah, yeah, And I know that a lot of people

544
00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:07.519
say I don't know what my passion is and it

545
00:33:07.559 --> 00:33:10.799
could be overwhelming, Like today, there's so much pressure. You've

546
00:33:10.839 --> 00:33:12.759
got to find your passion, You've got to live by

547
00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:15.359
your passion. And that's why it's like, you know, don't

548
00:33:15.400 --> 00:33:17.640
worry too much about this. It doesn't have to be

549
00:33:17.720 --> 00:33:21.119
something that completely consumes you. It can be something that

550
00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:24.400
you just care about, and we all care about different things,

551
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:28.599
and then it's like, okay, if I can do something

552
00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:31.319
about this, and a lot of us care about what

553
00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:35.640
is happening in the world and what's happening to our planet,

554
00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:38.839
and it's like, Okay, what can I do to do

555
00:33:38.920 --> 00:33:41.640
something about it? As little as as it might be.

556
00:33:41.720 --> 00:33:44.319
You don't have to become you know this nobel price

557
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:47.920
Malali to be. You can do whatever you can do

558
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:53.079
in your little way to help address this goal, even

559
00:33:53.119 --> 00:33:56.400
if not alone, if you just go out and march

560
00:33:56.559 --> 00:33:59.240
about things that you care about. And I remember I

561
00:33:59.240 --> 00:34:02.480
always once in the Meditation retreat and she asked us

562
00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:07.440
to write down our superpowers, and I wrote passion and compassion,

563
00:34:08.039 --> 00:34:10.679
And that was the first time that I realized how

564
00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:14.360
similar these words are, and I thought, wow, my passion

565
00:34:14.440 --> 00:34:18.519
is my compassion is that I could really feel people's

566
00:34:18.519 --> 00:34:21.559
and animals suffering, and I want to try and elevate

567
00:34:21.639 --> 00:34:24.880
that in a way that I mean, I'm not going

568
00:34:24.920 --> 00:34:27.119
to change the world, I know that, but even if

569
00:34:27.159 --> 00:34:30.159
I can make small changes to people's quality of life

570
00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:33.159
and to some animals quality of life, for me, that

571
00:34:33.239 --> 00:34:36.679
would be really, really meaningful. And then when I was

572
00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:38.760
writing the book, and one of the things that I

573
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:42.239
love doing is finding the original meaning of a word,

574
00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:44.639
what's the source of the world. Where did it come from?

575
00:34:44.679 --> 00:34:48.719
It's like the archaeology of language. And when I looked

576
00:34:48.719 --> 00:34:51.480
into the word passion, I actually discovered that it came

577
00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:53.719
from the word suffering. So if you think about the

578
00:34:53.880 --> 00:34:57.920
passion of Jesus, Mattias pasion, you know it's about the

579
00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:02.559
suffering of Jesus, it's really suffering. That's where it comes from.

580
00:35:03.039 --> 00:35:05.519
And then later on in the fifteenth century or so,

581
00:35:05.559 --> 00:35:09.239
it was translated to love that you are so passionate

582
00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:12.679
about this person that it actually causes you suffering. You

583
00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:15.880
suffer for your love. And from that we come to

584
00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:19.480
twenty twenty three, and it's about you know, what do

585
00:35:19.559 --> 00:35:23.159
I really care about and how do I find my passion?

586
00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:27.599
And compassion means to be with someone else in their suffering.

587
00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:31.840
That's the original meaning of the word compassion. And I

588
00:35:31.960 --> 00:35:34.679
understand that many of us don't want to feel compassion

589
00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:37.800
because if we open up to other people's sufferings, to

590
00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:43.519
what's happening in the developing world in Ukraine, in many

591
00:35:43.559 --> 00:35:45.880
parts of the world, when you realize that so many

592
00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:50.599
people suffer so much, it breaks your heart. But there

593
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:52.880
is a lot of suffering in the world and sometimes

594
00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:55.679
we want to shut ourselves out. We don't want to

595
00:35:55.719 --> 00:35:58.079
hear about that. I just want to have my chocolate

596
00:35:58.119 --> 00:36:05.039
and be quiet. But without understanding that, corporations will continue

597
00:36:05.239 --> 00:36:09.000
to create sufferings so they can make a profit and

598
00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:12.719
we become part of that, and we don't necessarily want

599
00:36:12.760 --> 00:36:15.159
to be part of that. But if we become more aware,

600
00:36:15.320 --> 00:36:18.719
then we see, Okay, you know there are alternatives, and

601
00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:21.159
instead of buying an iPhone, I can buy a fair

602
00:36:21.239 --> 00:36:26.159
phone which was created with no suffering and no environmental damage.

603
00:36:26.280 --> 00:36:29.159
So there are always alternatives, but we don't want to

604
00:36:29.199 --> 00:36:32.400
think about the suffering, so we don't think about these alternatives.

605
00:36:32.760 --> 00:36:35.679
And this sense of mindfulness which you speak a lot about,

606
00:36:36.519 --> 00:36:40.800
is really important in us understanding what's wrong in this world,

607
00:36:41.239 --> 00:36:43.800
how we came to be where we are today, and

608
00:36:43.800 --> 00:36:46.320
what can we all do in our little lives to

609
00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:47.199
make a difference.

610
00:36:47.719 --> 00:36:50.400
Yeah, there's a couple of things I want to pick

611
00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:51.280
up on their DeBie.

612
00:36:51.320 --> 00:36:51.559
One.

613
00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:54.639
I just want to go back a little bit to

614
00:36:54.719 --> 00:36:58.840
the animal suffering, particularly animal welfare is a big passion

615
00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:01.519
of mine as well, to the point that I was

616
00:37:01.559 --> 00:37:06.199
mostly vegetarian and then I eventually decided, oh I don't know.

617
00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:09.039
I read something about the cows, the dairy cows, and

618
00:37:09.079 --> 00:37:11.119
I thought this was horrendous and I need to actually

619
00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:13.519
be veg Like this is if I'm going to do this,

620
00:37:13.559 --> 00:37:16.519
I need to actually be vegan. So I started just

621
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:19.239
to experiment with being vegan. Within about six months, I

622
00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:22.159
decided that we needed more vegan stores. I'd opened an

623
00:37:22.199 --> 00:37:24.000
online vegan store. This is while I was doing my

624
00:37:24.079 --> 00:37:25.679
master's in clinical psychology.

625
00:37:25.719 --> 00:37:28.000
By the way, I had a toddler.

626
00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:32.559
I opened a vegan store, which was very successful, and

627
00:37:32.599 --> 00:37:35.719
eventually after a few years, I realized that I was

628
00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:38.320
a psychologist, like I wasn't. This store was getting really

629
00:37:38.360 --> 00:37:40.199
really popular, and this was before you could buy vegan

630
00:37:40.239 --> 00:37:42.119
products in every supermarket shelf.

631
00:37:42.159 --> 00:37:45.760
You know, this is fifteen years ago. So there's that.

632
00:37:46.039 --> 00:37:50.480
And also I eventually found that too hard to sustain. Yeah,

633
00:37:50.599 --> 00:37:53.639
don't come for me, But so I'm no longer vegan.

634
00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:55.679
But what I did was then we moved to the

635
00:37:55.719 --> 00:37:57.719
country and we bought acreage so that I could rescue

636
00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:01.440
dairy calves and chick much like you.

637
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:01.639
You know.

638
00:38:01.719 --> 00:38:04.480
So I sort of felt like that was my atonement too,

639
00:38:04.519 --> 00:38:07.280
like I'll rescue the ones that I can we do

640
00:38:07.400 --> 00:38:07.920
what we can.

641
00:38:08.440 --> 00:38:11.119
Not everybody can move to the country and raise dairy.

642
00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:12.199
Counts, rescue chickens.

643
00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:12.639
Yeah.

644
00:38:12.719 --> 00:38:14.800
But what I wanted to say, though, was even in

645
00:38:14.840 --> 00:38:17.400
that vegan community, to go back to the kabbala right,

646
00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:20.800
to go back to the cult like organizations. I just

647
00:38:20.840 --> 00:38:24.000
wanted to do something to make a small contribution. And

648
00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:26.599
I found myself a part because especially because I opened

649
00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:29.360
a store and I became quite involved in that vegan community,

650
00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:33.320
Like there were people who really treated that with the

651
00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:36.159
same kind of dogma, the same kind of them and

652
00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:40.719
us mentality. Like it was awful the way they would

653
00:38:40.719 --> 00:38:42.599
speak about the other you know.

654
00:38:42.599 --> 00:38:45.679
The non vegans, the heathens.

655
00:38:45.760 --> 00:38:48.119
You know, they're so ignorant and they're you know what

656
00:38:48.199 --> 00:38:49.960
I mean, Like it seems like it doesn't matter what

657
00:38:50.039 --> 00:38:54.079
you do, people will there will be a certain segment

658
00:38:54.119 --> 00:38:59.159
of the population will find a way to create that divide.

659
00:38:59.199 --> 00:39:01.239
I just found that interest while you are talking, because

660
00:39:01.239 --> 00:39:04.920
it just relates so much to the original conversation about

661
00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:08.599
we find meaning, we find purpose, there's something we're passionate about,

662
00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:11.639
become really devoted to it, and we almost there's almost

663
00:39:11.639 --> 00:39:15.679
this indoctrination where's there's only one way to live and

664
00:39:15.719 --> 00:39:19.400
every other way is wrong. So I guess just a

665
00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:21.519
word of warning, let's not go down that path. That's

666
00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:22.719
all I wanted to say about that.

667
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:25.800
And I always say I'm not a big fan of

668
00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:30.760
people who have ownership over ultimate truths, So you know

669
00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:32.960
it's for me. I'm not going to say there's one

670
00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:35.079
way to live, you should follow that. In fact, the

671
00:39:35.119 --> 00:39:38.320
book says I'm not going to give you any prescribes

672
00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:40.880
solutions on how to live your life. I'm just giving

673
00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:43.079
you tools so you can find your own way of

674
00:39:43.159 --> 00:39:47.639
doing it. If anyone is giving you ultimate answers and

675
00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:52.239
ultimate truth, you should be very careful. Look, I will

676
00:39:52.280 --> 00:39:55.760
always speak about animal rights because it's who I am.

677
00:39:56.159 --> 00:39:59.519
But I completely respect the right of people to do

678
00:39:59.559 --> 00:40:02.320
what they want to do, and I will not criticize

679
00:40:02.360 --> 00:40:05.000
it or preach. But I think that we do need

680
00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:07.679
a bit more awareness to what is happening. I think

681
00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:11.920
a lot of people are not aware to even free

682
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:15.719
ranch chickens. Agree you know what it actually looks like.

683
00:40:16.239 --> 00:40:19.360
So as you said, you know, today I have fifteen chickens,

684
00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:23.679
many of which were rescued, and I just love them

685
00:40:23.719 --> 00:40:27.519
so dearly. It's not easy because when they sometimes pass away.

686
00:40:27.920 --> 00:40:28.880
It is hiaking.

687
00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:32.159
They all have first names, and there are pets there.

688
00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:32.960
We love them.

689
00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:34.199
I've been there well.

690
00:40:34.280 --> 00:40:36.480
Next people ask me if I eat them, Like, No,

691
00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:39.599
I don't eat them. I love them. They're like pets,

692
00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:42.159
just like you wouldn't eat your dog. So we have

693
00:40:42.199 --> 00:40:44.800
a lot of animals on our property and I try

694
00:40:44.840 --> 00:40:47.920
in my own way to, you know, give a few

695
00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:49.920
animals a good life. I know I'm not going to

696
00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:54.679
change anything big, but in Judaism, we say that you

697
00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:58.039
saved the world by saving one person. So for me,

698
00:40:58.239 --> 00:41:01.039
I'm trying to change the world. Chicken at the time.

699
00:41:01.880 --> 00:41:03.960
I love that too, and I totally I know exactly

700
00:41:04.039 --> 00:41:06.079
what you mean because when you lose one and they're

701
00:41:06.079 --> 00:41:08.920
not always the healthiest the chickens that come the rescues

702
00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:11.960
from the battery cages, but they have a nice life

703
00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:14.920
while while you have them.

704
00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:15.599
Exactly.

705
00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:17.920
But Debbie, so going back, Sorry that was a little

706
00:41:18.320 --> 00:41:21.719
diversion there, But going back to that corporations who are

707
00:41:21.760 --> 00:41:25.199
doing the right thing and how I think one thing

708
00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:29.159
that you've mentioned is that it can feel really overwhelming to

709
00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:32.039
be across all of the issues, and I think for

710
00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:35.320
some people that leads to just blocking out if I

711
00:41:35.360 --> 00:41:38.159
can't fix it all, it's too hard, there's too much

712
00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:40.559
of that dissonance. I feel too uncomfortable that I can't

713
00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:42.239
fix everything, so I'll just block it out and pretend

714
00:41:42.239 --> 00:41:44.719
that I don't put my fingers in my ears and.

715
00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:46.719
La la la, pay no attention.

716
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:50.840
But it really is about just like you said, just

717
00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:56.119
one thing, just something that you feel strongly about, I guess,

718
00:41:57.119 --> 00:41:59.480
and then just doing what you can. And one of

719
00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:01.360
the ways that can do what we can is to

720
00:42:01.400 --> 00:42:06.719
support those organizations who are doing the right thing. So

721
00:42:06.760 --> 00:42:08.360
it's just baby steps, isn't it.

722
00:42:09.159 --> 00:42:11.679
Absolutely? And I always say, just because you can't do

723
00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:16.079
everything means that you should be doing nothing. So yeah,

724
00:42:16.159 --> 00:42:20.039
take baby steps. Start with something small. Just decide you're

725
00:42:20.039 --> 00:42:23.119
never going to buy buttery caged eggs, you know, do

726
00:42:23.239 --> 00:42:28.840
something small that you feel will help to address some

727
00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:32.960
kind of suffering in the world. And it's never too late,

728
00:42:33.039 --> 00:42:36.440
it's never too little. You start with something, start doing

729
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:39.159
something that you care about, and it might grow, it

730
00:42:39.239 --> 00:42:42.000
might not, but it's just something that you can do

731
00:42:42.639 --> 00:42:45.639
and to open your eyes and to actually see what

732
00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:47.719
is happening around the world. And I have to say,

733
00:42:48.199 --> 00:42:50.119
I know I'm going to sound like a boomer, and

734
00:42:50.199 --> 00:42:52.719
my daughters will tell me so. But a lot of

735
00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:55.400
young people have their heads stuck, you know, in tiktoks

736
00:42:55.400 --> 00:42:58.800
and social media so much so they really lose touch

737
00:42:59.159 --> 00:43:02.480
with what is happening in the world. And it's so

738
00:43:02.559 --> 00:43:06.480
important for them to also take a deep look at

739
00:43:06.519 --> 00:43:09.000
what is happening around them. Not to feel guilty. I

740
00:43:09.039 --> 00:43:12.159
don't mean to make anyone feel guilty, but to see

741
00:43:12.159 --> 00:43:14.599
what kind of small steps I can take. And you know,

742
00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:18.400
while you're on your iPhone, on your smartphone, there are

743
00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:22.679
apps to help you buy more ethically and consciously, and

744
00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:25.519
you don't even have to do all the homework yourself.

745
00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:28.519
Be aware of the little things that you can do.

746
00:43:29.079 --> 00:43:33.039
When I teach corporate social responsibility and university, I actually

747
00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:36.559
during COVID that was teaching online and I thought, how

748
00:43:36.599 --> 00:43:39.360
can I actually utilize the fact that the students are

749
00:43:39.400 --> 00:43:43.719
stuck at home? And then we had this whole session

750
00:43:43.800 --> 00:43:48.280
around labeling and marketing of sustainability, and I said, everyone

751
00:43:48.360 --> 00:43:53.079
go to your pantry and bring some items with sustainability

752
00:43:53.159 --> 00:43:57.119
labels or some kind of labels on it. For most

753
00:43:57.159 --> 00:44:00.800
of the students, it was a a I open experience

754
00:44:00.840 --> 00:44:03.719
because they said, wow, we've never noticed this, We've never

755
00:44:03.800 --> 00:44:06.559
noticed that we have all these little labels on our foot.

756
00:44:06.639 --> 00:44:09.440
And some people even found them on books and you

757
00:44:09.480 --> 00:44:13.079
know whatever they were buying, and they said, you know what,

758
00:44:13.239 --> 00:44:15.559
from now on, it's going to completely change the way

759
00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:18.400
that I buy in the supermarket. I'm going to go

760
00:44:18.440 --> 00:44:20.719
around and I'm going to look for these labels. And

761
00:44:20.760 --> 00:44:23.320
we looked at different labels and what do they actually mean?

762
00:44:23.400 --> 00:44:26.239
And so some people should be doing their homework but

763
00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:29.639
to understand what's the difference between the Reinforest Alliance and

764
00:44:29.679 --> 00:44:32.960
the fair Trade mark and how to walk around the

765
00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:36.159
supermarket in a different way of not just finding the

766
00:44:36.239 --> 00:44:40.599
cheapest price. And it could actually be cheaper to buy

767
00:44:40.639 --> 00:44:43.119
things that are fair trade. It doesn't have to be

768
00:44:43.519 --> 00:44:46.960
more expensive. So, for example, when I go to Woolies

769
00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:50.559
and I go through the aisles, I found that a

770
00:44:50.599 --> 00:44:54.440
lot of the home brand products for Woolies are the

771
00:44:54.519 --> 00:44:57.199
ones that have the best labels, so they're the ones

772
00:44:57.239 --> 00:45:00.840
that are most sustainable, that have the least and even healthier,

773
00:45:00.960 --> 00:45:04.559
so they would have less coloring and sugar compared to

774
00:45:04.639 --> 00:45:08.119
their competitors, and they're cheaper. But most people don't even

775
00:45:08.159 --> 00:45:11.639
think about that as a way of consuming more consciously.

776
00:45:12.519 --> 00:45:15.000
It doesn't have to be difficult. It's just a matter

777
00:45:15.079 --> 00:45:17.599
of habit. Once you do your homework and you know

778
00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:20.199
which way you want to buy what you want to do,

779
00:45:21.079 --> 00:45:23.079
it just becomes a matter of habit.

780
00:45:23.800 --> 00:45:26.920
Yeah, exactly, Debbie.

781
00:45:26.920 --> 00:45:29.159
Another way that is really important for people to find

782
00:45:29.159 --> 00:45:31.280
a sense of meaning is through their work. And there's

783
00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:33.960
also loads of research that says doing meaningful work is

784
00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:36.679
fundamental to satisfaction with life.

785
00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:38.039
I also wrote a book about that.

786
00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:43.719
But if people are doing work that is not particularly meaningful,

787
00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:47.320
where can they start or how important do you think

788
00:45:47.360 --> 00:45:51.519
it is that people seek to create some sense of

789
00:45:51.639 --> 00:45:55.199
meaning or to do work that they personally.

790
00:45:54.840 --> 00:45:57.039
Feel is meaningful and aligns with their values.

791
00:45:58.119 --> 00:46:01.280
It's so important, and we see that COVID nineteen shook

792
00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:04.639
us to the core and a lot of people started

793
00:46:04.679 --> 00:46:08.280
thinking life is too short. Life is too short to

794
00:46:08.320 --> 00:46:10.400
do a work that I hate or a work that

795
00:46:10.519 --> 00:46:13.679
I feel is meaningless, And so many people are now

796
00:46:13.719 --> 00:46:16.760
starting to look for other jobs or to try and

797
00:46:16.840 --> 00:46:20.880
find some meaning in their own job current job. There

798
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:23.719
are a few things that you can do, and there

799
00:46:23.719 --> 00:46:27.320
are pretty doable solutions, So let's start with them. I mean,

800
00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:29.360
you don't have to go and start up a new

801
00:46:29.440 --> 00:46:32.639
social enterprise to find meaning at work, which could be

802
00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:36.239
very rewarding but could be difficult. So the first thing

803
00:46:36.320 --> 00:46:40.599
is trying to understand your organization better. What does your

804
00:46:40.639 --> 00:46:45.199
organization do that's good for the world. I say in

805
00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:48.639
the book, even McDonald's, which is a fast food junk

806
00:46:48.679 --> 00:46:52.679
food retailer, they also do some good things with their

807
00:46:52.760 --> 00:46:57.199
Ronald McDonald house. So trying to find the positive aspect

808
00:46:57.280 --> 00:47:01.679
of your organization, and if perse is important for you,

809
00:47:01.719 --> 00:47:05.360
maybe work with the leaders of your organization to try

810
00:47:05.719 --> 00:47:09.800
and impart meaning and find purpose to the organization. If

811
00:47:09.840 --> 00:47:12.360
it doesn't have to be top down, it can absolutely

812
00:47:12.400 --> 00:47:14.920
be bottom up, and I give examples in the book

813
00:47:14.960 --> 00:47:19.119
where people from within an organization changed it bottom up.

814
00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:22.480
Another thing that you can do is try to find

815
00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:28.199
ways to participate in your company's social responsibility, so corporate volunteering,

816
00:47:28.880 --> 00:47:33.039
giving social innovation. I'm just working now on a new

817
00:47:33.119 --> 00:47:37.599
research on employee blood donations. So what can you do

818
00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:41.320
through your workplace that would help you in part meaning?

819
00:47:41.760 --> 00:47:44.960
We've done some studies on corporate volunteering and we found

820
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:48.239
that the number one motivation for people to participate was

821
00:47:48.360 --> 00:47:52.360
it makes work more meaningful to me. So all these

822
00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:55.599
things that you can do, maybe an extra role behavior,

823
00:47:55.639 --> 00:47:59.800
maybe working with others, mentoring others, finding ways to participate

824
00:47:59.840 --> 00:48:03.199
in and then lead changes in your workplace could all

825
00:48:03.360 --> 00:48:07.000
give you a sense of meaningfulness at work. But if

826
00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:10.719
none of these work, you might actually try to find

827
00:48:10.760 --> 00:48:14.280
another job. And when you do the most important thing

828
00:48:14.280 --> 00:48:18.280
that you can do is look into your new employer's values,

829
00:48:18.840 --> 00:48:24.159
purpose mission statement, talk to people inside the organization and

830
00:48:24.239 --> 00:48:28.440
try to understand how purpose driven this organization is. Because

831
00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:33.800
the number one solution to feeling meaningless at work is

832
00:48:33.840 --> 00:48:37.840
when you have purpose alignment with your employer. When you

833
00:48:37.920 --> 00:48:42.199
feel my employer's goals are my goals and I want

834
00:48:42.199 --> 00:48:46.719
to help achieve them, that could really make work more meaningful.

835
00:48:47.159 --> 00:48:50.559
That is such great advice, Debbie. Thank you so much.

836
00:48:50.599 --> 00:48:52.760
I think we need to wind it up there, but

837
00:48:53.239 --> 00:48:57.239
I have really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you for the

838
00:48:57.280 --> 00:48:59.559
work that you do, and congratulations on the book because

839
00:48:59.599 --> 00:49:04.400
it is really a really great read and super helpful too.

840
00:49:04.440 --> 00:49:06.719
Lots of practical advice in there, so I'll certainly be

841
00:49:06.760 --> 00:49:07.440
recommending it.

842
00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:10.159
Thank you so much. I feel like those people who

843
00:49:10.199 --> 00:49:12.800
write a book about how to get rich and become rich.

844
00:49:13.480 --> 00:49:16.199
This way for me, I wrote a book about meaningfulness,

845
00:49:16.199 --> 00:49:20.639
which made my life a lot more meaningful.

846
00:49:22.119 --> 00:49:25.559
Debbie's book Make It Meaningful, How to Find Purpose in

847
00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:28.679
Life and Work is available now in all bookstores. You

848
00:49:28.719 --> 00:49:30.880
can find out more about Debbie's work at her website

849
00:49:30.920 --> 00:49:33.760
Debbie Husky Leventhal dot com. I'll put that link in

850
00:49:33.800 --> 00:49:37.280
the show notes. Obviously, come and connect with me. I'm

851
00:49:37.320 --> 00:49:40.519
at castdone dot com or on Instagram and TikTok cast

852
00:49:40.559 --> 00:49:44.559
Done underscore XO. If you enjoyed this episode, please share

853
00:49:44.559 --> 00:49:48.320
it with a friend, give us a subscribe, perhaps leave

854
00:49:48.400 --> 00:49:48.639
us a.

855
00:49:48.639 --> 00:49:49.679
Rating and a review.

856
00:49:50.039 --> 00:49:51.840
It really helps us to get into the ears of

857
00:49:51.880 --> 00:49:54.760
more listeners. I can't wait to catch you on the

858
00:49:54.760 --> 00:49:56.000
next episode of Crappy to have

859
00:49:56.159 --> 00:50:03.639
You you, listener.