Life in a religious cult and finding meaning with Debbie Haski-Leventhal

0:02 A listener production. Today I am joined by Debbie Haskei Leventhal. Debbie is the author of Make It Meaningful. She's a professor of management at Macquari Business School. She teaches corporate Social Responsibility. But today what we're talking about is her early life growing up in a religious cult. Debbie's mother looked to find meeting in this cult after a tragedy in their family, and at the age of eighteen, Debbie escaped having lived a life of abuse, poverty, and servitude. That experience ultimately led her to finding her own meaning in life and that is what she is passionate about helping others to do.

0:46 Today today we have a jam packed conversation. We talk about everything from her time in that cult and how you can find more meaning in your life and work without giving up your life or your work. I know you'll enjoy this conversation with Debbie. Debbie, welcome to the Crappy a Happy Podcast. Thank you so much, Kas, I'm so happy to be. Here, and congratulations on your book, which I have been really enjoying. By the way. You've written a book called Make It Meaningful, How to find purpose in life and work, which is one of my favorite topics. Thank you. Obviously, in the book you talk about early experiences in life with which led your mum in particular, and then your family to joining a religious organization. Let's just say, following a family tragedy. Could you I think that's so relevant to the story and where you are now. Could you describe for listeners that early experience and what happened.

1:44 Sure, and I agree it was so relevant that I had to share it in the book. So I grew up in Tel Aviv, and unfortunately, just when I was born, my brother, who was six years older than me, was diagnosed with cancer and for three years they've tried to battle it with whatever they could, but we're talking about the nineteen seventies, and so unfortunately, when I was three and he was nearly ten, he passed away. And the tragedy just brought our house down. It was so consuming that there was almost nothing else left. There was no space for anything else but grief. And I don't remember my brother so much, but I do remember my mother grieving, and it's very frightening when you were a little child and you just see your parents in the depth of despair, and I remember her being so so sad, and as a little girl, I tried to make her happy in my own little way, which I very soon learned that I was not enough to do. So two years she was just consumed by sadness until she stembled upon the Kabbala Center early days in Tel Aviv and she met with Rabbi berg the rav who helped her to somehow

3:15 impart meaning into my brother's death. So in her own meaning search, she got us all into this very religious organization with very strong leadership, odd rituals, a very strong sense of togetherness, some really weird things that were happening there that I share in the book, all of which led me to think today that it's probably a cult, or a cult like organization, or a controlling organization. And this was years before Madonna and other celebrities joined the Kabbala Centa, but we were the first devotees to be part of this organization and it was everything. It was just everything. It meant everything from the way we think, to the way we behave, to what we do, to our life goals, and to also what gave us meaning in life. So when I left it at the age of eighteen and a half, after seeing too much and not being able to continue. I had to go through my own meaning search and it was very difficult. It was very scary, very almost depressing in a way, but coming out of it was also very liberating, which led me to where I am today. Or'll talk about that later, and that's why I had to share my story on writing a book about meaning searching.

4:47 Yeah, you've probably described that really well. I was going to ask you, you know the Kabbala, it does you have described it very much like there's a lot of cult like behaviors in that organization. And I mean, it's not on the topic. Of meaning, but I'm just wondering if you can describe what some of those kind of. Strategies are. I guess that they use to have people become so devoted and to become so committed to those kinds of organizations, not just for Cabbala, but you know, there are others. Of course. Absolutely, there were a few strategies that they used to control who we are and our identity, so anything from what we were wearing, for example, on the Sabbath. On Shabbat, we were all wearing this white clothes and we all had the red string on our left wrist which you could still see today with the devotees from a Donna to everyone else in the center. But one of the things that they've done is change people's names. So our name is such an important part of our identity. It's one of the first words that we learned to recognize as babies. We just become very attached to our names.

6:04 And when I was seven, the Ralph decided to change my name from Adi, which means jewel in Hebrew, to Devora, after the biblical prophet. And it wasn't just that I got a name change and had to go and change it in my idea, but that there was a whole ritual of being reborn. So there is a ritual when a baby is born in Judaism where you provide this baby with a name, and so the same ritual was applied when people got their name changed. And I was actually one of the first members of the Kabbala Center to get a name change. But now it's almost so common that even Madonna became Esther. Everyone gets a name change, and it's a way for the Kabbala Center to create a new identity where you are nothing but a member of the Kabbala Center, and you have to devote your everything to the center. There were also some really odd rituals, some of which involve nudity. So we would, for example, go an excursion to the Sea of Galilee, and we would all men and women would be separate, and they would just dive into the sea completely naked. So imagine you're with one hundred naked women and you're only ten or eleven. It could be quite traumatizing. And they all

7:35 dive into the sea seven times to purify for their scenes. Those who were in the US, so when I was about ten or eleven, the Ravinese family moved to the US, and when I was twelve, we joined them, and there was a growing center there in New York first and then in la and those who were in New York also rolled in the snow naked to purify. Four the scenes, we would slaughter chickens to purify for our scenes. And I'm talking about, you know, my father taking a chicken, circling it above my head at a very young age and saying, this is your atonement. This chicken is going to go to death and you're going to go to life.

8:19 And then they would just slaughter the chicken in front of my very young eyes and tell me to cover the blood of the chicken with sand. So all these rituals also provided meaning into what we were doing. They gave us a sense of stability. We knew what to expect. They also differentiated between insiders and outsiders, because if you were not part of the cabalacenter and you're just walking around it, sometimes in the middle of the night, you would go, what the heck are these people doing. So for those who were insiders, we knew what these rituals meant, and that was also part of controlling the members and making them feel together. But look, cults are never all bad, otherwise people wouldn't join them. It also gave us a really strong sense of meeting. It helped my mother and my family somewhat heal from the tragedy, and it gaves us such a strong sense of togetherness that I don't think I've ever experienced again in my life, such a strong sense of togetherness. Were also glued together, and that's something that sometimes even today, without missing the Kabbala Center at all, I sometimes missed that sense of togetherness.

9:39 Yeah, I think that's so interesting that you have that perspective where we haven't talked about you were. Abused in that Kabbala center. You were as the Burghs who. Were the founders right of the Kabbala. As they became more and more and more wealthy, all of the members became more and more and more abused and devalued and almost living in poverty, like really horrendous conditions at some points. But you can. Still look back on that and say, I can still see that there's some There was some positive benefits.

10:19 Some beauty, Yes, there was some beauty. And look, as you said, there was a lot of abuse. So there are used to abuse the members. And I remember him specifically humiliating my father quite often, calling him names, mocking him in front of us, which was very difficult as little children to see your father being humiliated like that in front of everyone. And he did it to people for the smallest scenes, Yeah, the smallest things. They didn't bring enough money in or they spent too much or whatever. They could be called satan just for doing that, So that was very scary. I was also sexually abused by two members of the center, and I know of other stories which I couldn't put in the book because they were not mine to share, But there was some abuse.

11:12 There was also I don't know if it's poverty, but thinking about it now, and I didn't put it in the book, it almost resembled modern slavery, yes, right, I would say a lot of us were entrapped in the center. And for example, when I went to Paris, I couldn't just leave. I was there. I was stuck in one small apartment with fourteen people. Were three girls sleeping in one bedroom, one of which was sleeping under the bed, and I had to go every morning and do what they call in the Kabbala center harisha or plowing, where you have to go knock on doors all day and try to sell their books and bring holy money. They used to call it bring in holy money. And it was just very difful But I was trapped. I couldn't just go or say I want to go home, and they would just say yeah, okay. So I was there until they decided to release me. And then when they released me, all broken, I came home and I decided I no longer want to be part of the center.

12:16 And when you say released you, they almost like they sacked you me out, like they threw you out because you weren't bringing enough money in that's. Right to the center. So a few years earlier it started this whole money making machine. And I remember when we were working and I started doing the plowing since I was sixteen, and I would go around in Tel Aviv and other places and sell the books. And even though we were not being paid, we had to write down a report every single day, how many books we've sold, how much money we brought in, even how much money we were able to get in what we call charity. So people wouldn't want to buy the books, would tell them, if you give some money for charity, and by charity we me in the center, charity could save you from death, so who knows what might happen to you tomorrow, And by giving some money, you're going to protect yourself. So that was another way for us to milk people for money.

13:20 And so we had to write these reports, and I knew that Karen was going over them Karen Berg, and it just became more and more almost obsessed with money, and it just felt like it was becoming a money making machine. And the Birds became more and more wealthy every year. And you also describe the Burgs as being people who really probably started out with positive intentions, but slowly over time became consumed by that. I don't think they will be the first people in human history who were changed by power and my. Power and money exactly. And so yes, I think they really started something with good intention. Let me just go back one step and explain that kabbala is part of Jewish mysticism, and for centuries it was believed that only men over the age of forty, who have studied every other aspect of Jewish scholarly work, were entitled to even start studying kabbala, but it was considered sacred and secret knowledge that was only meant for the best few. What the Birds decided to do was to make this knowledge accessible to everyone, including women, which was really unheard of. That's why they were boycotted by the ultra Orthodox from day one. So I think they meant well. I think they're meant to start something

14:50 spiritual and help people find meaning and happiness and spread what they call the light. But power and money, in my view, changed them so much that it just became the spirituality just became a means to the end instead of the end itself. Yeah, and I think important to point out too that while in the end. I think you were eighteen when you left the Kabbalah, when you left the center. But for that period of time, for all of those weird rituals and those unpleasant experiences that you endured, you were very committed, such as the process of indoctrination and the power of that sense of community and belonging, isn't it.

15:35 I would go as far as saying that I was brainwashed. I was so devoted that if anyone would speak against the Burghs, I could go into a fistfight with them. And I was a tiny girl, but I was just so devoted. I really wanted to become better member of the kabbala sent, a better follower of the Burgs and the light, sell more books, bring in wholy money, and spread the you know, the notion and the knowledge of Kabbalah. I was such a strong believer that I was willing to do anything for them. Seriously, we were willing to die for them, and we believed anything that we were told.

16:18 I didn't put it in the book, but for example, there was this whole notion that the birds can teleport. So if for example, we were all going somewhere and they got there a little bit before us. No one thought that maybe Karen was speeding, but that probably they were teleporting, which they did not deny. So there was really like such strong set of beliefs that they were holy people, almost like Massiah like, and we were willing to do anything for them, which meant that leaving the Center was very, very difficult. It was what gave my life meaning, and were told that outside the Center there is no life, there is no meaning. So when I left the Center, I honestly thought that I'm going to leave a meaningless, empty life. And if you look at me now, and people who knows me would love it.

17:14 And it's like, I don't know Bill Gates thinking at the age of nineteen that he would forever be poor, but that's how I felt. I felt like my life is going to be meaningless. So I can only imagine how difficult and frightening that must have been to leave the Center when it was really all you had ever known. So where did you begin, Debbie, to start to turn things around and to find a new sense of meaning, a new sense of self, a new sense of identity. It was very scary. I've spoken to a lot of people who lost their religion since I've published a book, people reach out to me and they share the scene terrifying experience that the ground you were walking on was taken away from you. When you were left with nothing but abase and you were just walking on thin air, you have nothing to hold onto for a little while, and it's very difficult. So I felt like, Okay, Firstly, everything I thought about the Kabbala Center, most of it turned out to be false. So what about all my other beliefs in life, all the dogmas that I grew up with. I need to closely examine each one of them.

18:31 So I went through six months of doing that at the age of eighteen and a half. I have a journal I'll show you. So I still have this falling apart journal that I wrote when I was eighteen and a half, and I sat down and I just wrote my thoughts. I wrote, what do I believe in? Do I believe in God? Do I believe in Judaism? Do I believe in religion? So I was looking through all the myth and story and proofs that were giving to us and trying in my own little mind to verify or disprove them based on what I know was true and I've started with only the basic things of what do I know, what can I see? And so I wrote all these ideas and stories. I was thinking a lot about the psychological need for religion and God and how the old notion of God has evolved over the years.

19:29 I was thinking about why people have such a need for ultimate truths that I'm right, you're wrong, this is my God, this is your God. Therefore I'm gonna kill you. And it was just really interesting to look at it from a psychological point of view, even though I had no background in psychology, and it was not easy, but it was also for the first time in my life, I feel I was so privileged to take these six months and just look into what I believe in. I don't think many people will have this privilege of taking this time off to just philosophize, and so I decided these are my values. I'm going to be an honest person, compassionate person who cares about humans and animals. I decided to become vegetarian. I was so traumatized by the rituals with the chickens that I was holding and patting and then they were slaughtered before my very eyes, and the next day we were always served chicken schnitzel, and I was like, Okay, I don't want that anymore. I can't detach myself from that suffering, and I don't want to enjoy anything that was created through human or animal suffering.

20:43 And I'm still trying to do that. It's not always easy, but I'm trying to live by that rule and value. And so I've just built my own set of values from scratch and my own behavior and my own set of beliefs. And then at the age of twenty, I decided to go and study philosophy at the Hebrew University and continue this meaning searching journey with my first degree. You're so right, So many people do not have that privilege, especially at such a young age. I think people over time, as you get older, you might start to question certain things you've grown up with, or things that you've been taught or that you've never questioned before. But the extreme of your experience, you know, obviously led you to have a really deep dive really early on. So in some ways I guess that's an upside as well. That's obviously served you well.

21:37 Please, and I really am. I know it wasn't easy. I'm not going to sugarcoat it, but I feel so lucky that I was able to do that because that really led me to a meaningful life which I live today. That little fear the age of eighteen and a half that my life is going to be meaningless made me such a reluctant warrior for meaning and happiness in the profound way, which we're probably going to talk about, but it just my whole life then became about volunteering and giving and service, and that was my way of creating a small impact in the world and finding a sense of meaningfulness in what I do.

22:21 You make the distinction. I was interested when I was reading your book about the term meaningfulness. You use the term meaningfulness a lot, and at first I was thinking, it seems like a long way to just say meaning. But for you, there is a distinction, isn't there between meaning and meaningfulness? So can you please explain that? Sure? So I actually start a chapter one with explaining the meaning of meaning. Yeah, So I say, look, I love that because I'm all about definitions. I'm always saying we need to define what we're talking about. So I love that you did that. And you know, I've read a lot about meaningfulness and meaning and meaning at work and meaning in life. And I was like, what is what do you mean by meaning? And so I thought, okay, let's break this up. So oftentimes when we think about meaning, we think about what is the meaning of a word, so the linguistic meaning of it. So the example I use in the book is the meaning of the word house. So when I say the word house, if you speak English, you'd probably imagine some kind of a building, a dwelling, walls, ceiling, roof.

23:24 It might be you know, different kind of houses, but you would think about a house. You will not think about a dog. And then there is the emotional meaning that we attached towards. So house is one word, but home is a very emotional word for so many of us. And when I was stuck in Paris, and I don't share it in the book, there was one phrase that I kept saying to myself all the time, I want to go home. I want to go home. I want to go home. It became such a mantra for me that for years later, even when I was home, if I was this stressed, my brain was saying I want to go home. I want to go home, which meant for me, I want to go to safety. I want to go to a place where I feel valued and a sense of belonging. I no longer say it in my head, but it was really years in recovering from that sense of I want to go home because home is such an emotionally loaded word. For some people, it's a warm and fuzzy word. For some people, it's a very difficult word. But when we say home, there is an emotional meaning to it. And now there is the meaning of what we call meaning in the same notion of meaningful work, that it's significant, that it matters, that it makes a difference in someone else's life. And that's when a lot of people write about meaning and finding meaning in work and in life. They talk about finding this sense of mattering, that what I do is important,

24:57 that what I do is valued, and that that, for me, after years of research, comes from the idea of service and impact. So how can you find meaning and meaningfulness? And I use the word meaningfulness because I love the fullness of it. I like that it's about being full of meaning, and that's why I use the word meaningful. It was actually the original name of the book was Meaningfulness, and then we could really play with that and understand what it means to be full of meaning. It's like being so rich, having such ample sources of meaning in your life that you are almost protected against adversity and other things that are happening in your life.

25:44 And I think it's really clear that having a sense of meaning or purpose in life is so fundamental in life and at work, like you say, it is so fundamental to life satisfaction, just to happiness. Essentially, you talk about purpose as well and also make the distinction between meaning and purpose. So for listeners, can you describe what that distinction is? I think this is really important to really dig into what do we mean when we talk about having a sense of purpose and how does that relate to having a life that feels meaningful? Absolutely, And for me it was also something that I've learned how to distinguish between purpose and meaningfulness because they're often used interchangeably. So a purpose is a reason for which something exists or for which something it was created.

26:31 And I often like to ask people to just look around them and look at all the objects on your desk or in your office, in your car, everything around you was created for a certain purpose. So a glass of water was created so we can drink easily. This microphone was created to capture my voice in a better way, and my computer my mouth, everything around me in my desk was created for a reason. But when the objects stops serving this purpose, it doesn't work anymore. We dim it broken and we throw it away. And so one of the thoughts that I had when I was writing the book was maybe the reason that so many of us walk the earth feeling somewhat broken is because we don't leave a purposeful life, and that could really lead to a sense of meaning. And that's why I had to almost dissect what I mean by purpose and meaning and help people or provide them with tools to help them find a more purposeful life which could lead to higher levels of purpose. So the way I try to capture it is that meaningfulness and passion can be seen as the fuel of the car, the petrol, but the purpose is the direction in which the car is going.

27:55 So if you have a purpose, you know where you're going, what you want to achieve, and that fills you up with the fuel that helps you get to this destination. I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe so that you get notified when you apps drop and head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and leave us a rating and review. You mentioned that there are three aspects of your life that relate to purpose.

28:39 Can you talk about what those three things are. That's what I call the tip model, and I feel like it's my biggest tip in the book. There's one thing you can take away from this book. To pay attention everybody. This is this money thing for you you tuned into. So the tip model stands for talent, impact, and passion. So by talent, I don't mean you're acrobatic ability, and I don't mean that you have to be you know, Arthur Rubinstein and play the piano amazingly well. By talent, I mean everything that we know, our skills, our knowledge, the education that we obtained, set of tasks that we know how to do, and that's our talent. So for example, for Ucas, you always had a talent for connecting people.

29:34 You wanted to help people. You became a psychologist, but you also have the ability to create these fantastic interviews by listening to people and asking great questions, which also make your podcast so awesome. Yes, there was a little bit of flattery there, thank you. But you also have some passion, and that passion could be something that brings you jaw or something on the other hand, that could make you very angry. For me, for example, animals suffering is one thing that really breaks my heart and brings tears to my eyes, and I want to do more about that. I want to try and some way address animal suffering in the meat industry and the battery cages and so on, and I do it in my own small way. But that could be human rights, women rights, refugees, climate change, environmental action, and so on and so on.

30:34 There's so many things that could be passionate about. And from what I can see, for you, it's about people's wellbeing, the ability to use your knowledge and talent to increase people's quality of life and happiness and well being. And then the secret of the book is how do you tie the two of them to create a positive impact in the world. So if you want to leave a more purposeful life, you need to tie your talent and your passion to your ability to create a positive impact, and that could work in different ways. So it could be, Okay, this is what I know. I'm a photographer, I'm a filmmaker, I'm a teacher. How can I utilize my knowledge and my skills to create something good in the world. Or it could be I want to address the issue of climate change or refugees. What skills do I need to develop to help me achieve this goal? And so by continuously create this triangle, you can leave a more purposeful life.

31:42 So I don't subscribe to the idea that there is one purpose and that you just need to discover it. Some people do it. Some people will have a light bulb moment where they think, oh, this is what I need to do. And I've heard people talk about a light bulb moment, but for many of us, we don't have that light bulb moment. And so it's really about how do I think very programmatically about what I want to contribute to what I want to help achieve, and how do I do that by utilizing or developing my skills and knowledge and my passion. I love everything about that, and I have shared some of those same messages in my own books as well.

32:29 I think there can be like you said, there's not this one big purpose that you're not born for this one thing because it's so much pressure in that. I also think that that advice to follow your passion can be you know, high pressure for people. I don't know, I don't know what I'm passionate about. Like we think there has to be lightning bolts. So what is some of the advice that you offer, Debbie Fault? How people can just begin to get curious about those things? Where do people start if they're a bit like, oh, I don't know, Like I'm just busy doing my job and raising my kids and who's you know, like the passion is missing? Yeah, yeah, And I know that a lot of people say I don't know what my passion is and it could be overwhelming, Like today, there's so much pressure. You've got to find your passion, You've got to live by your passion. And that's why it's like, you know, don't worry too much about this. It doesn't have to be something that completely consumes you. It can be something that you just care about, and we all care about different things, and then it's like, okay, if I can do something about this, and a lot of us care about what is happening in the world and what's happening to our planet, and it's like, Okay, what can I do to do something about it? As little as as it might be.

33:41 You don't have to become you know this nobel price Malali to be. You can do whatever you can do in your little way to help address this goal, even if not alone, if you just go out and march about things that you care about. And I remember I always once in the Meditation retreat and she asked us to write down our superpowers, and I wrote passion and compassion, And that was the first time that I realized how similar these words are, and I thought, wow, my passion is my compassion is that I could really feel people's and animals suffering, and I want to try and elevate that in a way that I mean, I'm not going to change the world, I know that, but even if I can make small changes to people's quality of life and to some animals quality of life, for me, that would be really, really meaningful. And then when I was writing the book, and one of the things that I love doing is finding the original meaning of a word, what's the source of the world. Where did it come from?

34:44 It's like the archaeology of language. And when I looked into the word passion, I actually discovered that it came from the word suffering. So if you think about the passion of Jesus, Mattias pasion, you know it's about the suffering of Jesus, it's really suffering. That's where it comes from. And then later on in the fifteenth century or so, it was translated to love that you are so passionate about this person that it actually causes you suffering. You suffer for your love. And from that we come to twenty twenty three, and it's about you know, what do I really care about and how do I find my passion? And compassion means to be with someone else in their suffering.

35:28 That's the original meaning of the word compassion. And I understand that many of us don't want to feel compassion because if we open up to other people's sufferings, to what's happening in the developing world in Ukraine, in many parts of the world, when you realize that so many people suffer so much, it breaks your heart. But there is a lot of suffering in the world and sometimes we want to shut ourselves out. We don't want to hear about that. I just want to have my chocolate and be quiet. But without understanding that, corporations will continue to create sufferings so they can make a profit and we become part of that, and we don't necessarily want to be part of that. But if we become more aware, then we see, Okay, you know there are alternatives, and instead of buying an iPhone, I can buy a fair phone which was created with no suffering and no environmental damage.

36:26 So there are always alternatives, but we don't want to think about the suffering, so we don't think about these alternatives. And this sense of mindfulness which you speak a lot about, is really important in us understanding what's wrong in this world, how we came to be where we are today, and what can we all do in our little lives to make a difference. Yeah, there's a couple of things I want to pick up on their DeBie. One. I just want to go back a little bit to the animal suffering, particularly animal welfare is a big passion of mine as well, to the point that I was mostly vegetarian and then I eventually decided, oh I don't know.

37:06 I read something about the cows, the dairy cows, and I thought this was horrendous and I need to actually be veg Like this is if I'm going to do this, I need to actually be vegan. So I started just to experiment with being vegan. Within about six months, I decided that we needed more vegan stores. I'd opened an online vegan store. This is while I was doing my master's in clinical psychology. By the way, I had a toddler. I opened a vegan store, which was very successful, and eventually after a few years, I realized that I was a psychologist, like I wasn't. This store was getting really really popular, and this was before you could buy vegan products in every supermarket shelf. You know, this is fifteen years ago. So there's that. And also I eventually found that too hard to sustain. Yeah, don't come for me, But so I'm no longer vegan.

37:54 But what I did was then we moved to the country and we bought acreage so that I could rescue dairy calves and chick much like you. You know. So I sort of felt like that was my atonement too, like I'll rescue the ones that I can we do what we can. Not everybody can move to the country and raise dairy. Counts, rescue chickens. Yeah. But what I wanted to say, though, was even in that vegan community, to go back to the kabbala right, to go back to the cult like organizations. I just wanted to do something to make a small contribution. And I found myself a part because especially because I opened a store and I became quite involved in that vegan community, Like there were people who really treated that with the same kind of dogma, the same kind of them and us mentality. Like it was awful the way they would speak about the other you know.

38:42 The non vegans, the heathens. You know, they're so ignorant and they're you know what I mean, Like it seems like it doesn't matter what you do, people will there will be a certain segment of the population will find a way to create that divide. I just found that interest while you are talking, because it just relates so much to the original conversation about we find meaning, we find purpose, there's something we're passionate about, become really devoted to it, and we almost there's almost this indoctrination where's there's only one way to live and every other way is wrong. So I guess just a word of warning, let's not go down that path. That's all I wanted to say about that.

39:23 And I always say I'm not a big fan of people who have ownership over ultimate truths, So you know it's for me. I'm not going to say there's one way to live, you should follow that. In fact, the book says I'm not going to give you any prescribes solutions on how to live your life. I'm just giving you tools so you can find your own way of doing it. If anyone is giving you ultimate answers and ultimate truth, you should be very careful. Look, I will always speak about animal rights because it's who I am. But I completely respect the right of people to do what they want to do, and I will not criticize it or preach. But I think that we do need a bit more awareness to what is happening. I think a lot of people are not aware to even free ranch chickens. Agree you know what it actually looks like.

40:16 So as you said, you know, today I have fifteen chickens, many of which were rescued, and I just love them so dearly. It's not easy because when they sometimes pass away. It is hiaking. They all have first names, and there are pets there. We love them. I've been there well. Next people ask me if I eat them, Like, No, I don't eat them. I love them. They're like pets, just like you wouldn't eat your dog. So we have a lot of animals on our property and I try in my own way to, you know, give a few animals a good life. I know I'm not going to change anything big, but in Judaism, we say that you saved the world by saving one person. So for me, I'm trying to change the world. Chicken at the time.

41:01 I love that too, and I totally I know exactly what you mean because when you lose one and they're not always the healthiest the chickens that come the rescues from the battery cages, but they have a nice life while while you have them. Exactly. But Debbie, so going back, Sorry that was a little diversion there, But going back to that corporations who are doing the right thing and how I think one thing that you've mentioned is that it can feel really overwhelming to be across all of the issues, and I think for some people that leads to just blocking out if I can't fix it all, it's too hard, there's too much of that dissonance. I feel too uncomfortable that I can't fix everything, so I'll just block it out and pretend that I don't put my fingers in my ears and.

41:44 La la la, pay no attention. But it really is about just like you said, just one thing, just something that you feel strongly about, I guess, and then just doing what you can. And one of the ways that can do what we can is to support those organizations who are doing the right thing. So it's just baby steps, isn't it. Absolutely? And I always say, just because you can't do everything means that you should be doing nothing. So yeah, take baby steps. Start with something small. Just decide you're never going to buy buttery caged eggs, you know, do something small that you feel will help to address some kind of suffering in the world. And it's never too late, it's never too little. You start with something, start doing something that you care about, and it might grow, it might not, but it's just something that you can do and to open your eyes and to actually see what is happening around the world. And I have to say, I know I'm going to sound like a boomer, and my daughters will tell me so. But a lot of young people have their heads stuck, you know, in tiktoks and social media so much so they really lose touch with what is happening in the world. And it's so important for them to also take a deep look at what is happening around them. Not to feel guilty. I don't mean to make anyone feel guilty, but to see what kind of small steps I can take. And you know,

43:14 while you're on your iPhone, on your smartphone, there are apps to help you buy more ethically and consciously, and you don't even have to do all the homework yourself. Be aware of the little things that you can do. When I teach corporate social responsibility and university, I actually during COVID that was teaching online and I thought, how can I actually utilize the fact that the students are stuck at home? And then we had this whole session around labeling and marketing of sustainability, and I said, everyone go to your pantry and bring some items with sustainability labels or some kind of labels on it. For most of the students, it was a a I open experience because they said, wow, we've never noticed this, We've never noticed that we have all these little labels on our foot.

44:06 And some people even found them on books and you know whatever they were buying, and they said, you know what, from now on, it's going to completely change the way that I buy in the supermarket. I'm going to go around and I'm going to look for these labels. And we looked at different labels and what do they actually mean? And so some people should be doing their homework but to understand what's the difference between the Reinforest Alliance and the fair Trade mark and how to walk around the supermarket in a different way of not just finding the cheapest price. And it could actually be cheaper to buy things that are fair trade. It doesn't have to be more expensive. So, for example, when I go to Woolies and I go through the aisles, I found that a lot of the home brand products for Woolies are the ones that have the best labels, so they're the ones that are most sustainable, that have the least and even healthier, so they would have less coloring and sugar compared to their competitors, and they're cheaper. But most people don't even think about that as a way of consuming more consciously.

45:12 It doesn't have to be difficult. It's just a matter of habit. Once you do your homework and you know which way you want to buy what you want to do, it just becomes a matter of habit. Yeah, exactly, Debbie. Another way that is really important for people to find a sense of meaning is through their work. And there's also loads of research that says doing meaningful work is fundamental to satisfaction with life. I also wrote a book about that. But if people are doing work that is not particularly meaningful, where can they start or how important do you think it is that people seek to create some sense of meaning or to do work that they personally.

45:54 Feel is meaningful and aligns with their values. It's so important, and we see that COVID nineteen shook us to the core and a lot of people started thinking life is too short. Life is too short to do a work that I hate or a work that I feel is meaningless, And so many people are now starting to look for other jobs or to try and find some meaning in their own job current job. There are a few things that you can do, and there are pretty doable solutions, So let's start with them. I mean, you don't have to go and start up a new social enterprise to find meaning at work, which could be very rewarding but could be difficult. So the first thing is trying to understand your organization better. What does your organization do that's good for the world. I say in the book, even McDonald's, which is a fast food junk food retailer, they also do some good things with their Ronald McDonald house. So trying to find the positive aspect of your organization, and if perse is important for you, maybe work with the leaders of your organization to try and impart meaning and find purpose to the organization. If it doesn't have to be top down, it can absolutely be bottom up, and I give examples in the book where people from within an organization changed it bottom up.

47:19 Another thing that you can do is try to find ways to participate in your company's social responsibility, so corporate volunteering, giving social innovation. I'm just working now on a new research on employee blood donations. So what can you do through your workplace that would help you in part meaning? We've done some studies on corporate volunteering and we found that the number one motivation for people to participate was it makes work more meaningful to me. So all these things that you can do, maybe an extra role behavior, maybe working with others, mentoring others, finding ways to participate in and then lead changes in your workplace could all give you a sense of meaningfulness at work. But if none of these work, you might actually try to find another job. And when you do the most important thing that you can do is look into your new employer's values, purpose mission statement, talk to people inside the organization and try to understand how purpose driven this organization is. Because the number one solution to feeling meaningless at work is when you have purpose alignment with your employer. When you feel my employer's goals are my goals and I want to help achieve them, that could really make work more meaningful.

48:47 That is such great advice, Debbie. Thank you so much. I think we need to wind it up there, but I have really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you for the work that you do, and congratulations on the book because it is really a really great read and super helpful too. Lots of practical advice in there, so I'll certainly be recommending it. Thank you so much. I feel like those people who write a book about how to get rich and become rich. This way for me, I wrote a book about meaningfulness, which made my life a lot more meaningful. Debbie's book Make It Meaningful, How to Find Purpose in Life and Work is available now in all bookstores. You can find out more about Debbie's work at her website Debbie Husky Leventhal dot com. I'll put that link in the show notes. Obviously, come and connect with me. I'm at castdone dot com or on Instagram and TikTok cast Done underscore XO. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend, give us a subscribe, perhaps leave us a.

49:48 Rating and a review. It really helps us to get into the ears of more listeners. I can't wait to catch you on the next episode of Crappy to have You you, listener.