Living a Creative Life with Samantha Wills

0:02 A listener production. This is Crappy to Happy, and I'm your host Castunn. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist, a mindfulness meditation teacher, and author of the Crappy to Happy books. In this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their field and who have something of value to share that will help you feel a little bit less crappy and more happy. Samantha Wills began selling her handcrafted jewelry at the Bondi Markets when she was just twenty one years old, and while she'll be the first to tell you that there is no such thing as an overnight success, a few relatively short years later, that very jewelry that she'd been designing at her kitchen table was being worn by celebrities like Katy Perry and Eva Mendez. Was even featured on the Sex and the City movie. Samantha Will's jewelry became a global brand worth miss millions of dollars, and Samantha Will's the person became the head of a global company. She was splitting her time between New York and Sydney, trying to maintain some semblance of balance in her life. Dealing with imposter syndrome and learning to stay true to her instincts and out of the comparison trap. She also had to learn to manage the business side of things while also being the creative force behind it, and then when the company was at the height of its success, she made the tough decision to follow her heart and close the business and walk away. On this episode, Samantha is very generously sharing

1:36 some of her hard won lessons and wisdom, and I know that you'll find her just as engaging and inspiring as I did, and that you'll take something away of value, especially if you happen to be a creative entrepreneur, but even if you're not. She's just released her memoir of Gold and Dust, and she's also launched a series of online master classes and workshops, which I'll tell you about after the episode, but for now, he's my chat with Samantha. Samantha, it is such a treat to have you on the Crappy a Happy Podcast. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. It's a treat to be on. I get sent a lot of books because I interview a lot of authors on this show, and honestly, so many books that often I don't get to read them properly.

2:19 I have to kind of skim through and pick out the highlights and the things that I really want to talk to you about. But your book, I read from cover to cover. I absolutely loved it, and I don't often get to do that, but I was really I really appreciate it. You've done a fantastic job. I just wanted to say that upfront. Thank you. That is truly the biggest compliment, because as a reader, I'm lacky, but it doesn't get me in the first few pages. I'm like, oh, I'll get back to it later, and I never do. So that was kind of my biggest fear as a first time author, and so many people have said it just as kindly as you just did, so that is a huge compliment. Thank you. It is an amazing story, obviously an amazing success story, but you've also really been very open and sharing the challenges that you have had along the way. And I know a lot of my listeners on this show will really relate to some of those challenges and will just be all eased to hear about your you know, the lessons and the wisdom that you have gained from your experience. So, Samantha, you grew a jewelry brand from your kitchen table basically to a multimillion dollar empire, you know, sold in stores all around the world. You also talk about at every almost every stage of that journey in the book, you refer to imposter syndrome. Now, this is a topic that is an important one. I think I've been talking to my listeners and my community about this experience of imposter syndrome that affects so many women. So I was really intrigued that you mentioned that despite all of your external success,

3:50 you constantly had this feeling of and for listeners who don't know that term, it is essentially like the feeling of never being good enough, smart enough, qualified enough, talented enough to be in the places where you are, despite all the evidence to the contrary. So I guess, Samantha, I'm just curious to know how did imposter syndrome affect you and what kind of strategies did you use to overcome that to keep moving forward with this business. Yeah, I think it's well, you know, in the book, I actually give imposter syndrome it's own character, So it plays such a bigs in my life. I don't remember really a time without it, and I think the more I've progressed down my career path, I actually think the worse.

4:30 It's got to be honest, and I think that for so long I held on so tightly to be like I need to get imposter syndrome out of my life, like, and exerted so much energy to try and move it completely out, and it just it didn't. And my experience is like I don't think it ever goes away. So what I've tried to do into combating it is trying to find a way to live alongside it rather than exert all this energy to try and get rid of it. It's like, all right, how can I find some type of piece this is going to be in my life? How do I find peace around it? So you know, I now you know, really acknowledge it, and I'm like, all right, I see im foster syndrome, Like, just give me ten minutes to kind of get this.

5:11 Done or you know, trying. And this is a hard thing because I think we go into these vortex right when we get in that deep conversation with imposter syndrome, but we have to be able to somehow step back from it and really separate fact from fiction because that vortex spiral is a really slippery slope and before we know what we can, we can be deep in that and it's a long journey out. So separating fact from fiction. I also flip it around and I'm like, if someone was talking to my best friend that way, I would be like, that's a hard note. Put a stop to the conversation and you know, and put distance between that. But when it's ourselves and the conversation with imposter syndrome, for some reason, we don't offer ourselves that same empathy or you know, action. So really, you know, flipping the roles that pretending it's like someone speaking to your best friend and how would you react and applied that reaction to it, the.

6:02 Fact that you, even as you say, gave it its own character. I think it's a really useful strategy. It's like a really useful distancing technique, isn't it. It's like here's me and over there is my imposter syndrome and it comes along for the ride, but it doesn't kind of call the shots. That's a really I think that's a really clever strategy. Yeah, And I think if you look at it as a character, as a person like you would not choose to hang around with someone like that if it was an actual person in real life. But the conversation is very real, So you know, what are we doing? And if we don't put a stop to it, no one will. You know what I mean, Like, I'm thirty nine years old, and often I'm like, I'm just going to wait for an adult to tell me what to do. And I was like, no, no, you're you're the adult here, So you know, we have to take that responsibility to disrupt that conversation.

6:51 Yeah, and I think the other point that you made, which I think is a really important one to make, because when I see people offer advice with regard to how to over become this imposter syndrome, it is often almost like fake it till you make it and then allow your success to show you that you do have what it takes. And as you said, often with imposter syndrome, the more successful you become, the worse it actually gets because the more exposed, the more visible, the higher the fall, like the higher the drop if things were to go wrong. And so yeah, that's why I think that it's really important that we actually be real about the fact that that often is not the solution, and we have to come up with another way to address it so that it doesn't get in the way.

7:38 I think, to me, if I was to apply fake it till you make it, and I'm like, and that might work in short bursts, and I've definitely implemented that strategy before, but to have to operate at a level of fake it till you make it always just sounds exhausting to me, like that I wouldn't be able to operate like that. And I think I read a quote and this is not verbatim, but I really liked how it came together. It was a quote by Jodie Foster and she was like, you know, when they gave me the Oscar, I just stood up there and it was just like they've made a mistake, Like this is not meant for me, Like they must have. Meant to give this to Meryl Streep. And then the next quote was Meryl Streep being like, you know, I don't even know why people come and see me in movies anyway, Like I can't act anyway, And you know, it was this whole like you're like, all right, well, if Meryl streep firstly is thinking about and has imposter syndrome.

8:26 Then we must all experience. I think it's also such an insular, you know, conversation and experience that we're always like, Oh, she doesn't have it, she's so successful, she doesn't have it. And I'm like, everyone has it. Everyone is going through some type of conversation with imposter syndrome. And you know, my mom said to me when I was in high school, it's going to a party. I was like, Oh, I. Really don't like my shoes, Like everyone's going to be looking at my shoes at this party. She's like, get over yourself, Like everyone's worried about their own shoes. No one's looking at your shoes. And I think that's the whole thing. We think, Oh, you know what if I try this, and what's someone going to think? And I'm like, no one really gives a shit, to be honest, I'm like, everyone's so worried about themselves. So I think keeping that in mind is a good, good reminder that we're all very selfish beings.

9:09 We're all just worried about what everyone else thinks about us. Yeah, exactly exactly. And I think what you said earlier too, about you can't sustain that fake it till you make it. The other thing is that when you feel like a fraud, like when you've imposter syndrome, is essentially feeling like you're already faking it. So to expect to continue to do that when you're already feeling like a complete fraud that somebody's going to find you at is really unhelpful advice. Despite all of that fear and those feelings of not being good enough, you did create an incredibly, incredibly successful business, Samantha, and you seemed to have correct me if I'm wrong. You had an intuitive sense of what this business needed.

9:51 You really had an instinct for the product and how to grow the business. Some curious to ask you how much of your success was or how do people distinguish their intuitive, their gut feeling and go with that versus getting up in our heads and trying to think our way to solutions and outcomes, Like how do you find that balance? That is a great question, And this is one of my favorite things in the whole entire world to talk about. And I think intuition is not a new word to us, right like we've known it since we were kids, and you know, we know what the concept of it means.

10:33 I think though, as we get older, we start to really see the power of it and start to really learn the communication between you know, I guess our body, our gut, feeling and what you know, hopefully start to trust that more, but at the very least start to learn what that means, because you know, when you do something, you're like, oh, I just knew that wasn't right, Like I should have known better, because we probably did know better, but we go against it. Yes, So I think in my studying, and I study this topic a lot of intuition verse fear, you know, I talk about the feeling filter, which is, you know, our gart and our soul and our heart, and then the thinking filter is obviously the mind. So you know, I now put everything first and foremost through the feeling filter, because you can't fake a feeling, you know what I mean, Like, that's that's your body talking to you. That's that's some intuity being on the inside of you, you know, talking to you and communicating with you. The thinking filter and the job of our mind is to keep us safe and keep us in a familiar place.

11:30 Now when we're in. A familiar place doesn't always mean it's a great place. It could be, you know, a toxic relationship. It could be an uninspiring job, it could be you know, whatever it is. But the ego mind is always like, stay with what you know, no matter what that no matter what that is. So you know, when we're standing at a crossroads in any type of decision doesn't have to be, you know, a major life decision, it can be anything. Throughout the day, we're often going to be faced with the choice of fear or faith. And our our higher self and whatever that means to you, is always trying to direct us to our destiny, and that is and it's destiny sounds like a woo woo word, but it's you know, the destiny is is taking the one little step at a time into the unknown.

12:16 So fear, the fear based choice in that instance. Is going to be stay with what you know, stay in the job you know because you know it's safe, even if something in you is like whispering that there is more. The leap of faith is the calm one, even though it's scary. The fear decision is staying exactly where you are. That's great advice. And it's very true. And I know it's a topic that comes up in my community all the time, like how do I tell what is the right thing? How do I? And it's and it's cultivating that self trust. Isn't it trusting that inner knowing to be honest? I say that, you know, lack, I've got it all worked out. I firstly, definitely do not. Secondly, I think that self trust is a life's work, Like it's constantly something we're having to practice and return and too, it's a complete life's work.

13:02 Yeah, you mentioned in the book that the one time that you did get kind of up in your head and maybe perhaps caught up in whether you would call it a fear or ego, that you actually made a really big mistake. So was there a real was that kind of a turning point for you in terms of like, right, I just have to come back always to my gut instinct. Absolutely, So you know the story you're referring to. I made the move to New York because the brand was very successful in Australia. We're getting a lot of celebrity placements in the States. So my business partner's like, Hey, someone needs to drive this over there. So I made the move over. I think I was twenty eight at the time, and you know, I just got bezotted by everything that was New York. So I was out in, you know, doing market research in you know, these top tier stores, and you know, as brand builders and as creative directors, we can have every desire we want for our brand to be in a certain place of the market.

13:58 But at the end of the day, it's the consumer right that they dictate where you sit. Whatever they're buying the most of is essentially what your core brand is. And we had found. Success as a tier two brand. When I say tier two, it means it's a very loyal following. A Tier one brand is more so people are affiliated to trends and they'll change every season depending on what brand is doing the trend thereafter, whereas a Tier two consumer is very much like I am brand loyal, you know. And I say tier two because I am a Tier two shopper myself. So I was like, okay, we had found where our niche in the market. With a Tier two shop, it was very relative. Her and I were in conversation with each other. We were a bohemian brand. It was you know, turquoise and large stones and burnished metals and bohemian styling and more, as more, as more. And then when I got to New York and you know, in all these top tier stores, it was minimal, it was polish metals, it was you know, no color whatsoever. And so I got into deep conversation with imposter syndrome, being like, you're not even a real designer, Like, look at what all the real designers are doing. You know, if you knew what you were doing, that's the you know, design language that you would do. And within one season, I turned the brand on its head and was like, guys, we're not doing turquoise anymore. You know, we're doing petite styling.

15:13 We're not doing it. We're going to remove the word bohemian from the brand completely. And I was like, you know what, my story was so anchored from coming from Bondei markets. You know, through the journey, I was like, no one even knows where Bondai is in New York. Let's get rid of that, and essentially pulled every relativity of every connection point, every piece of color. Out of the brand. And you know, not shockingly, it failed miserably, and you know, it was really like hitting the you know, detonation bomb on the brand and I had to sit there in the rubble of it and kind of pick through these pieces and start to put it back together. But to do that, I had to go back to the girl at the Bondou Market's table and you know, why did we start this in the first place and build rebuild from there?

16:00 Gosh, that is I mean, it's a terrible thing to happen, but it is such a great story and I think so applicable to everybody in every aspect of life that always coming back to who you are rather than trying to fit and mold and adapt to be something that you know you're really not to satisfy somebody who in the at the end of the day wasn't even satisfied totally. And I think, you know, and whether it's relates to business or personal branding or personal situation, and I think, you know, we're living in this age of age of perceived perfection, so we're trying to you know, bend ourselves to look like. Everything else on Instagram.

16:40 And you know, the biggest takeaway for me in when I ruined the brand in one season and I nearly bankrupted us like it wasn't it wasn't insignificant. It was a pretty big mess up. I think that, you know, the biggest lesson for me from a brand a business perspective was stay authentic to who you are and find the peace people that that matches, rather than trying to change your authenticity to try and you know, find these people that it's never meant for them anyway, So you know, really honing that message and staying true to your authenticity, which I know is such an overused word, especially in brand building, but it is, so who is meant to find you will find you when you're being authentic, otherwise you'll be left a little bit high and dry.

17:22 I think who is meant to find you when they're meant to find you is going right back to that faith over fear thing, isn't it. It's like that really, like just trusting that if you are who you are, they will find you. Absolutely, And I think that's I think the word manifestation has you know, really been bastardised in this day and age. But I think the truth about manifestation is literally just a when you're your one hundred percent truth, when you're living that and showing up as that, then you attract that, and you attract what is meant for you. So until we can find that within ourselves and really drop into that, that's that's true manifestation. It's not you know, holidays and dream houses stuck on a pin board. That's like elementary level manifestation.

18:03 So I think going within and stripping away all these things that we think we're told we're meant to be like or you know check boxes where it told we meant to meet someone at this age and have kids at this age, and do this with business and. All these things. I'm like, no, Like, what's your framework and live that with the entirety of your truth, and then what is meant for you? Can find you much easier with. That whole topic of coming back and listening to your intuition and the signals that we get from our body. There's another area where you were getting signals from your body which you were largely ignoring in terms of your health. And I'm curious to have that conversation with you as well, because you know from what you wrote it was always prioritizing there was a meeting, or there was an obligation, or there was a pressure or there somewhere you had to be, and so you were always pushing aside. There's fairly loud calls from your physical body telling you that it needed some attention. With the benefit of hindsight, now, I guess, can you reflect on that and do you think it's an individual because I mean, that's a common issue.

19:09 There's a lot of people doing that. But is it an individual striving and personal work ethic and a values kind of hierarchy, or do you reckon that's a reflection of just the society that we live in that is so obsessed with productivity and achievement and doing an output. I think it's accumulation of them all. I think, especially as a female, I think we're often, you know, juggling so much that innately we always put ourselves last because we're like, oh well, if I put myself last, I'm not going to disappoint anyone else. Is our thought process? I think so, And you know, no one likes to disappoint anyone, So that makes sense on one level. But then once we hit that wall or collapse onto the floor or whatever it is, whatever that burnout is, I'm like, you're not really good to anyone when you're in that state.

19:54 So yeah, and you know even now, so the journey that you're talking about with was with endemetri cirosis, and I put it off for I was getting signs from my body and my body was whispering to me at first telling me that something's not right, and I ignored it and numbed it and just put it off, put it off, and took me about five years to get myself into a specialist office. And you know, it was quite a gruesome, you know, uncovering when I actually found myself in the oh ah. And you know, i'd like. To say that was that operation was a year ago now, and I'd like to sit here now and be like, you know, I really listened to my body. I learned so much from it, which I did, hand on my heart did. But even now I find myself, you know, exhausted at times to be like, oh, you know, I just got to get through this and then I'll get to that later kind of thing. So I think in hindsight, now, while I definitely listen to my body and I action her calls much much quicker, I'm still guilty of putting it on the elusive or do it when I get to a kind of list.

20:54 Yeah. I guess that's another work in progress, isn't it for all of us? Yeah? It is progress, Yeah, Samantha. Getting back to the business journey, you, as you said, you started the Bondai markets. I mean, it is such a fabulous story, and it became really successful, and then it got to a point where you couldn't do it on your own anymore, and you brought on a broad on a business partner. I'm curious to talk to you about how important it was for you to ask for help and balancing that with letting go to some degree of control when it was your baby, your brand, your name all over it, so that looking for help but also having to let go a little bit, how did you balance that?

21:43 I think they're looking for help. One is I don't know why we're so closed network in those type of moments of myself included where you're like I can't tell anyone I'm failing or I can't tell And I think your hand is often forced. As I think I've tried to communicate through the book, You'll only get so far by not living. You know what is meant for you, and if you're paying attention to the signs and whatever that is. And you know, along my journey, it was like, well, I was eighty thousand dollars in debt by that point. I literally, you know, I was eating baked bean jaffles every night. If it was a good week, I'd put cheese on them. That was like, we had absolutely no money. The bank rightly, so I wouldn't give me any more credit cards. And I'd gotten to the end of the line. And I think, whether it's frustration or whether it's exhaustion, whether it's getting tired of hearing the same thing come out our mouth over and over again, in whatever capacity that is, there is some kind of beauty and getting fed up with our own self, whether that's you know, being forced at the end of the line, or making excuses over and over, whatever it is. And at this point I had no choice but to ask for help. It was, you know, it was forced upon me to ask for help. And I just told anyone who would listen, I was like, do you know anyone that might be wanting to get involved in a fashion brand? You know, I'm looking for a business plan. I just need someone that's business minded.

23:00 And as I telling the story, you know, I met another person who I thought was going to take that role and signed a contract that was like, Okay, I's going to get me out of debt. And my vision was so small, it was so it was like I just I just need to get out of debt. Like I didn't look any further than that, so you know, it was it was very I often use the analogy of like if you look at a field mouse, and all the field mouse can see is this blade of grass. But then if you have an eagle, the eagle can see everything, but they might be you know, in direct line with each other. But as you move through business, your perspective needs to go from a field mouse, you know, all the way I guess up the food chain to have that eagle perspective. And at that time, I had only field mouse perspective and was like, okay, I just need to get out of debt.

23:46 That's it. Signed the contract with him, unbeknownst to my I mean I knew, but you know, I didn't think about it too much. He wanted fifty one percent of the company, and I was like, no worries, that's fine, as long as it gets me out of debt. And this kind of desperation, and you know, serendipitously, the universe put someone else across my path, which went on to be my longtime business partner. And very dear friend who is through the book a lot. But yeah, it's tough, and I think you know, in regards to handing stuff over, it's a concert. Especially as a creative founder. It's a constant push and pull through that journey. But again, I think once you get when you're on your knees being like I can't go any further, you start to look at things a bit differently and you surrender over a little bit more.

24:27 I think. I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe so that you get notified when you apsdrop and head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and leave us a rating and review. You mentioned that it was a bit serendipitous that Jeff, your business partner, came across your part and there's a lot of that through the book, that kind of serendipity, and I think that this goes back to that intuition kind of conversation we were having before about these signs from the universe is trusting and there's so many examples in your story about things just falling into place, but I think we have to be open to seeing those signs. I'd love to hear your take on that, on just the whole trusting the universe.

25:28 Yeah, well, I mean I am a huge believer in this obviously. I think when things happen that are very obvious in the moment, you're like, oh, that's, you know. What a coincidence. And my entire belief system now is there is no such thing as coincidence. There's a beautiful line in The Alchemist where he says, if something happens once, it happens once, but if it happens twice, it's sure to happen a third time. And I was like, yeah, I can see that through my journey, where you know, when the universe will keep trying to present and trying to present, and then if you're not paying attention to her, she kind of slap you around a bit, whether that's in the form of you know, heartbreak, health, whatever it is. She tries to get your attention in different ways. And I think the thing and having the privilege to write this book and look back on my you know, almost two decades, I guess of my career to date.

26:18 For so often I would hold on so tightly to things, like my idea of success was this, like all right, we're going to that pinpoint, Like that was the you know, the whole of success, and doing that, I kind of didn't see what was unfolding around me. Often because success, you know, can take in many forms where can be like, oh yeah, I want to go there, But the most beautiful journey might happen when we allow what is happening around us. And I think your idea of what not so much success. But like for me, I've ever been to at Bondi Markets, and I used to think, oh my gosh, if I had a retail store in Bondi, that was it, just one retail store, that would be the best thing to ever ever happen to me. Like I wasn't even thinking New York, I wasn't thinking sex in the city. I wasn't thinking all these things. And so I'm like, if my vision stayed at one retail store and Bondi, then I would have missed all these other incredible things that happened along the way. But the thing is that doesn't happen on our timeline, right, Like we have to put out what we wanted and do everything to be prepared for those opportunities. And I think that's one of the most beautiful I think the QBC thing, all the Rachel Zoe stories that I tell in the book, where I remember sitting in this tent, you know, in Fashion Week in New York and it was freezing cold, and I was like, wow, you know, watching Rachel Zoe present her collection on QBC. I was like, that would be amazing for us. And it happened eight years later, when you know, it was almost like I was in a different frame of mind then. But yeah, the timeline is not our own, so we have to surrender that over.

27:46 I think surrender's a great word. How did you juggle your work and your personal life? You were so busy for so long, flying backwards and forwards between New York and Sydney that New York's like it's a shocker, Like la is. Really the reason. Across to New York is the worst And you did it every six weeks for years. Is it possible for us to have it all, Samantha. No, it's not, I think, and I say this in the book. I'm like, whoever came up with the concept of work life balance definitely was not a creative entrepreneur. So you know there is sacrifice, absolutely, you know, it's I don't know.

28:31 I think as an entrepreneur, we traditionally link that word with work and in the say the olden days, but like previously, it's you meant to work nine to five and then you come home and you you know this. And then you got the weekends off. And obviously we're in a different world now and a lot more people are beautifully exploring the entrepreneurial journey. And I think, as an entrepreneur, like our whole thing, that is our passion, that is our sole purpose at whatever stage of that journey we're moving on. And I kind of lacking it to the way that if someone, for example, wanted to be an Olympic swimmer and they got up at three point thirty every morning and they trained five times a day and you barely saw them because they're always in the pool training, people wouldn't be like, oh, you work too much, like you need to slow down a bit they'd be like, you're so dedicated, good for you, like we're cheering you on. So I think we just need to reframe that concept of what balance actually is because I know, for me, if I wasn't working on creative projects or you know, I love, I love what I do, and for me, that's you know, it's way too cliche to be like, it's not work if you love what you do, But I don't want to just work nine to five on what I'm doing. Like, so I think that framework is different for everyone. Having said that, I think obviously listening to our bodies and when when they need rest, and you know, there's no point burning them out without rejuvenating ourselves. Also on that, I will say, you know, I get asked a lot, what's the one advice you would give to when and in business to not burn out? And the only advice that I can

30:03 give with my hand on my heart honesty now is you will only not burn out once you've burnt out, because I think that that burnout really, you know, teaches you to look at what's important in your life, look at how you're spending your time and as such your energy, and then that makes it makes it a lot clearer when when you're kind of looking up from the hotel room floor, trying to breathe at times, but really, you know, assessing what is important in your life. Yeah. Yeah, as you became more successful too, just talking about that balancing of personal and professional life. Obviously you had a very big public role, you as the face of the brand, but there was all always stuff going on in your private life. And you know that could be said for anybody who has a job, I guess in the public eye. And that opened you up to a whole lot of criticism. And you talk in the book about a time when you were really struggling personally and you've been unwell and you'd lost a lot of weight, and then you were on the receiving end of a whole lot of people's opinions and fore back online. And I guess anybody again, the more successful people become, the more open to criticism they become. How did you manage to handle or what advice do you have to people about handling that kind of trolling? I guess yeah, I think it's and I mean, whether it's public facing or not.

31:20 I think a lot of the time, you know, we as solopreneurs or as entrepreneurs. You're you can't call in sick to the boss because you are the boss. The world doesn't stop, you know, when we're experiencing grief or trauma, and I think that can. Be really, really difficult. Add to that a public. Elements, and I don't know, Like I remember reading the messages which I put into the book. I remember reading them at the time, and I think I was so numb. I was complete of body, mind and spirit, completely numb that they didn't even they didn't even reach me, like I read them obviously, but they just kind of bound. I just had no bandwidth at that point to even absorb them in, which I think, in some weird ways is kind of a blessing because some of them were quite off. But I think there comes a point when I think this is the internal work where you have to find a way to protect yourself and your spirit and whatever we have to do to do that. And I think that, you know, it's something internal where I don't know if I was visually to describe, it's almost like you have to wrap your your soul or your spirit in like this barrier.

32:24 And I don't know, for some. Reason, now at this point in my career, like none of that even bothers me anymore, But there would have been a time earlier on when it absolutely would have crippled me. So I don't know the exact answer, but I think, you know, again separating fact from fiction and taking a step back, like imagine what it takes for someone to sit at a keyboard and type those type of words, like clearly they're not a very happy human being, or clearly that that's an issue that they've got with them, you know, And I'm sure it's not just you, the you know whoever they yell at, but it. Wasn't just me that were yelling at online. They would have you know, you see kind of names pop up of these abusive type of messages. So I think, you know, stepping. Back, keeping a really sound grounding around you and separating that it really really is not you because they can unfollow, but for whatever reason they don't.

33:13 So that's a their issue, not a U issue. Samant that I know that you're on a tight time frame at the moment, So I've just got one more question. I mean, I guess the fast forwarding to the end of the Samantha Will's jewelry brand. I mean, you made a decision to actually close that business when you it was booming. I mean you were at the top of your game and you made the hard call to close it. And I really think this is so important and I love this because sometimes it is the quitting is something is the most important, the best thing to do. But where can get so hung up on what it means to quit or what it looks like or letting people down or feeling like a failure. How did you resolve that within yourself to make that decision.

34:00 Well, again, I think it goes back to a framework that we've taken on that is not necessarily our own. Like I know that in my parents' era, there is no way that you would close a business that's making money because that's just it makes no logical sense. So I think we take on a lot of that framework from our parents, be it society, be it our schooling, whatever it is. And again, I think going back to the thinking, the feeling filter, and the thinking filter. So when I made the decision to close, and you know, I try and really articulate this in the book, that it was probably a two year discomfort within myself as a creative person, that my creative heart wasn't in it anymore. But I was like, oh, it's just a creative block.

34:40 You know, this will pass. This will pass. And when it did, when I allowed space for the information to reach me that it is time to close. And was it something I'd ever even thought was an option before, Because you know, you ever so modestly name a brand after yourself, I'm like, this is my lot in life, Like this is you know, this is what I do. So I think that you know what I would do. When I made that this single, I was like, man, that's that's a big decision and it affects so many more people than just me. So I woke up every morning for two weeks. I didn't tell a single soul, and I woke up every morning and I asked myself how I felt about it. I didn't ask myself what I thought about it, because I knew if I was going to put it through the thinking filter, there was no logic to it. But you know, through the feeling filter, it felt like the right thing to do. And like I said before, you can't fake a feeling. And I think that you know, so much had gone into this brand from both myself, an incredible team of women and a few guys that worked on it over the fifteen years. And for me carrying on with it when my hands were creating drew but my heart wasn't. That was fraudulent to me, Like, I don't think that's really honoring what we had done.

35:48 So to me, you know, walking away while it is at the top of its game was a much more beautiful way to honor that legacy. And but yeah, you're right, Like, I know logic, and I've had to argue with people they're like, it makes no sense. I'm like, I know, it doesn't make any sense, but it was. It felt like the right thing, and I know it's the right thing for me to do. So yeah, I love it, to be honest, And I actually I don't know if you know of it. A couple of years ago, when I first heard you close the business, I tried to get you onto the podcast to talk about exactly that. So I'm so thrilled to have the opportunity to talk to you now because I was contacting your management saying I need to talk to this woman because this is so important to trust yourself and to know when it's time to say no, to call it quits.

36:32 Yeah, right right, Well I'm sorry that didn't happen then, but I think this is a much better conversation now. So yes, always always with that benefit of processing it and time to reflect. Samantha, I would encourage anybody to go and pick up the book. It is such an amazing success story but also your personal journey. There's something in there, creative entrepreneur or not. I think every woman will find something in there that really resonates with them, just at those important life lessons and trusting yourself and having faith. I seriously appreciate you taking the time to talk to me today. Thank you for being here and good luck with everything. Well, thank you so much, and thank you for your kind words. They mean a lot. It's been an absolute pleasure.

37:15 Thank you. Samantha's memoir is called Of Gold and Dust. It's a great read and it is available now in all good bookstores. And you can find out about her online masterclass and creative workshops at her website Samanthawills dot com and you can follow her on Instagram at Samantha Wills. Of course, as always you can connect with me on Instagram. I'm at cast done underscore XO. If you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to leave us a rating and review, and I also love reading your feedback, so shoot me a message on Instagram or email hello Atkaston dot com. And my third book, Crappy to Happy Love Who You're With That is the Relationships Edition, is also now available in all Good bookstores. The link to order is in the show notes. I'll see you on the next episode of Crappy to Happy.

38:07 Crappy to Happy is presented by Cash Dunn, produced by Davis Lensky, Audio production by Darcy Thompson. Listener