Sept. 15, 2019

Living bravely with Margie Warrell

Living bravely with Margie Warrell
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Living bravely with Margie Warrell
Living bravely with Margie Warrell
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Season 4 Women's Health And Wellbeing Self-Confidence

So often our lives are defined by fear – fear of what we don’t know, what we think could go wrong, what we think others will think of us. But it’s all just a story we tell ourselves. Margie Warrell asks Cass Dunn the question, what if we change the story? As a best selling author and inspirational speaker Margie knows the barriers to fear and how to overcome them.https://margiewarrell.com/
Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypodwww.tiktok.com/crappytohappypod
Join the free 7-day Happiness Challenge:www.cassdunn.com/happiness

Connect with Cass:

www.cassdunn.com
www.instagram.com/cassdunn_xo

Contact Crappy to Happy:

Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
www.crappytohappypod.com
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Are you a coach, therapist, service provider or solopreneur struggling with self-doubt and imposter syndrome? I'd love to talk to you! (for market research purposes only!)

Book a call with me to share your experience.

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Transcript
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A listener production.

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Hey guys, you're listening to Crappy to Happy. I'm cas done.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist, a mindfulness meditation teacher,

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and author of the Crappy to Happy books. In this series,

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we look at all of the factors that might be

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making you feel crappy and give you the tools and

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the techniques that will help you to overcome them. In

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each episode, I introduce you to interesting, inspiring, intelligent people

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who are experts in their field, and my hope is

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that they will help you feel less crappy and more happy.

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In this episode, I'm so excited to be talking to

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Margie Worrell all the way from her home in Singapore.

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Margie started her second career as a life coach around

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the same time that I did, and she and I

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found we share some similarities in terms of our early

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lives growing up in small towns. Margie is now an author,

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a coach, and an international speaker who is passionate about

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helping people to step into courage and live a braver life.

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The topic of self confidence, especially for women, comes up

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a lot on this show, and I loved hearing Margie's

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advice about how we can all train the brave within us. Margie,

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thank you so much for being on the show.

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It's great to be with you.

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For anybody who is not familiar with your work, can

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you give us a little bit of your background and

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what led you to doing the work you do now,

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which is predominantly about living bravely.

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Yeah. Look, I'm trying to come up with that in

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twenty five words or less. So grew up one of

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seven kids on a dairy farm in rural Victoria. Started

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my working life in the corporate world, but then a

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whole series of events, including you know, having to deal

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with having an eating disorder through my teens and early

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twenties and just various different experiences led me to going,

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you know what, I want to change career. So in

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my late twenties and then early thirties, I went back

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to UNI. I studied psychology, and then I heard about coaching,

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So then I actually moved to the US as well

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in the midst of all of this and having four kids,

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trained as a coach and launched then a coaching business

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while I was living in America, and then that has

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just really just organically evolved to the point today where

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I do a lot more speaking and writing, just working

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on my fifth book at the moment, and yeah, I've

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done you know, obviously stuff in the media as well,

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you know, in Australia, in Asia, in the USA. So yeah,

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it's kind of been an interesting unfolding. But for me,

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it's been always very very driven by you know, how

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do I help people get out of their own way?

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And the biggest thing that gets in our way, as

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you know, can be our fear, fear of failing, falling, short, rejection, disapproval,

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and so so a lot of my work is really

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about helping people live and lead more bravely.

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From your perspective, what does it mean? Again?

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Could you sum it up quite you know in the

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twenty five words? Alay, what does it mean to live bravely?

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Yeah? So what does that mean? You know? I think

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that obviously means different things for different people, because we

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are all different, We have different personalities, different things that

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excite us. And but that the core of living bravely

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is being willing to take action amid our fears and

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our doubts and that vulnerable, queasy feeling in our stomach

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that's like, oh my god, what if I try and

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I fall and I fail, And so it is really

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about taking emotional risks, and that's often easier said than done,

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you know, getting outside our comfort zone. We talk about that,

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we know that concept of a comfort zone for a

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reason because that's really uncomfortable. But that's that's at the

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heart of it.

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So right, and I see it too. There's so much

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fear that gets in our way. But do you find

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too that, like a lot of that stuff, it's really

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it's operating at an unconscious level.

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Like oftentimes it's not even conscious.

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We think, oh, yeah, I can do that, but then

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we're procrastinating and we're avoiding, or we're just doing ten

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other things, or we're you know, and it's got to

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kind of dig a bit deeper, don't we.

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Yeah, No, absolutely, And you know, for instance, you know,

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I'll meet people who'll say, oh, no, I'm not afraid

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of anything. You know, I'm not afraid. No, it's all cool.

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You know, your stuff's really nice, Margie, but it doesn't

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relate to me. And then I talk to them and

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they're unhappy in their marriage, and I'm like, well, why

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don't you talk to your you know, your husband about that? Oh? Look,

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you know, we just don't have those conversations. I'm like,

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you know, why not, Well, they're so awkward. I'm like, well,

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there's fear right there. Or people are unhappy in their

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relation and their friendships. You know, it's like, oh, just

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get so sick of this group of people. I'm like, well,

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what about you reach out and build new relationships, go

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and join some groups. Oh, and that's just so I

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It's just I hate going off to those sort of events,

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network events, or I don't know anyone. I'm like, well, what's

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what's going on there? And I think about how often

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I do a lot of speaking at events, and sometimes

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there's a Q and A and you know, they'll say,

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are there any questions? And no one puts their hand up?

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And sometimes it's one brave person. Often it's someone like

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the person that's engaged me I will put their hand

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up and ask a question. And once the first one

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has come, then lots of hands go up, and I think,

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what is that if not our fear that people are

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going to judge the question we're asking? So true and

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so fear. Yeah, it doesn't always show up as the

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paralysis you have when you're going to go skydiving. It

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can be insidious and creep into our lives in all

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sorts of ways, and you know, into our relationships is

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such when I kind of look at this, so many

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people have so much stress and suffering in their relationships,

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and you know, if you dig deep into that and

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get underneath it, somewhere along the line, you know, fear

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started calling the shots. They didn't have the conversation that

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they needed to have. They didn't say no, and they

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tolerated something because they thought it was the best that

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they could do, and they were afraid of being alone.

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They're afraid of being rejected, and so fear in so

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many ways, you know, to anyone that's listening, you know,

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I think about you know, where is that you think

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of a problem you've got, and then if you'd kind

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of drill down deeply enough, underneath it is fear in sight.

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For it's sort of at the crux of everything. Any

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change you would like to make, any thing that you

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want to do differently in your life, you have to

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push past that resistance.

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Yeah, and the same for even you know, achieving goals.

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You know you've got this podcast right, you know, at

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the start of it, you had to launch it, and

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I'm sure you didn't quite know what you.

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Were doing, right, you were like, ah, I had no idea.

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Yeah, And there was probably a little bit apprehensime about,

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oh god, I hope I don't screw this up, you know,

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I hope this isn't And.

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Then it went out there and it was, oh my gosh, like,

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what's the feedback going to be? What will people think?

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You know, even even once it's out there and I've

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just written two books too, and people go, what an achievement?

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And then but even having them out there in the stores,

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there's always this voice that says, but what if people

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don't like it? What if I don't think it ever

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really goes away? No, no, it doesn't ever go away.

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It does not go away.

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And I know that I'm working on my fifth book

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at the moment, and you know, I'm going to probably

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rework the introduction because the introduction is you know, there's

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a voice inside my head now that's going, who are

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you to write this book? You know I've got you know,

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that's it's it's there, it's ever present, and to me,

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that's where, you know, part of what living a brave

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life is is not letting that little voice call the shots,

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because that little voice of self doubt, that little voice

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of the inner critic. It's like, who the hell do

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you think you are to, you know, write a book,

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launch a podcast. In fact, it's funny. I remember back

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to my very first book. I had I think four

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kids under the age of seven or so. I've been

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coaching for a couple of years, and a few people said,

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you know, you should write a book. And I went

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to a little school that had one room, you know,

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in a part of eastern East Gippsland, you know, called Nongerner.

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And it was I don't know. We had thirteen kids

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one year and seventeen the next, but there wasn't a lot.

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There was one teacher, you know, Grandma where the apostrophes go.

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Wasn't you know, the highest priority? Like could we just

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be literate when we back back in those days? And

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so I was always really mindful of you know, I

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didn't study writing. I'm not like some literary genius or

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anything like that. And I remember kind of toying with

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this idea of writing a book. And I remember saying

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to my husband, you know, you know, it's like, it's

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not like I'm a brilliant writer, and you know, it's

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like not like I've got all the answers, and it's

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not like, you know, I don't really know what I'm doing.

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And I mean this is before social media. I don't

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even have a platform. I've got like one hundred friends

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or buy one maybe, and you know, and I remember

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him saying, honey, why don't you just write the best

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book you can right now? And when you're old and

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wise and you do have all the answers, then you

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could write another book then. And it was giving myself

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permission to write an imperfect book and to be inadequate

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for the task of writing a book that actually allowed

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me to write that first book, which was called Find

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Your Courage. And there's no irony loss that I had

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to really find my courage to write the book called

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Find Your Courage. And I think, I think it's so

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true for all of us. And I think also being

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Australian too, you know, I was living in America when

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I actually started writing that book, and frankly, the culture

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there is much more sort of celebrates go out. Yeah

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that's great, Yeah, sure, sure you should be an author.

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And I remember when I told my family is sitting

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around Christmas Day the year before I started writing this book,

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I'm thinking of writing a book, and my brothers said

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to me, what are you going to write a book about?

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You know, like who do you think you are? And

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so it's that little voice of who do you think

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you are? To do that that so often stops us

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even coming out the gate.

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That's a really interesting point that you make too, about

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the difference in the Australian culture and the American culture.

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I've heard that from so many people, particularly you know

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in our sort of work too, who go over to

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America to attend, you know, coaching groups and mastermizing things,

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and they just say, it's so different, that whole so

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much more just willing to have a go, and everybody

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is so much more supportive and collaborative. And this is

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probably off topic, but you know, that tall poppy thing

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that we have in Australia is very is very real

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and very Australian.

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Actually, it's funny. I actually wrote about that in Fire

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and Your Courage, I called I wrote about having tall

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poppy courage and my small poppy committee, because I think

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there's actually a value in naming the voice in your head.

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And I was, igne's a whole committee I called it

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my small Poppy Committee, and my small Poppy Committee did

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then and still does, want me to play small and

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play safe, don't stick your neck out, don't aspire to

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anything too big, don't put yourself out there where people go,

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who the hell does she think she is? You know?

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And you know, I had this wonders, a dairy farmer's

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daughter sort of thing going on. And you know, and

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I think that a lot of I see so many

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people struggle with that in one way, shape or form,

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and you know that it is a kind of cultural hangover,

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I believe from our colonial convict days where it's like, well,

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you know, we're all equal here, don't ever aspire to

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be above anyone else. And I don't know about you,

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but growing up, you know, in a country area, you know,

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someone might have called me a bitch or mean, yeah,

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that would be insulting, but to be called stuck up

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or up yourself like that was the biggest, most offensive,

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Like god forbid you ever act in a way that

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you would be called stuck up or up yourself. And

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so you know, I had voice had this sort of like,

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oh God, the people think I'm getting too big for

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my boots. You know to write a book. And so

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I think, I think we've got to just ask ourselves,

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where is that fear of what people might say? Or

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what do we even think they might say? Maybe no

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one would have thought that, but we're thinking, oh, they're

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going to think I'm getting up myself or I'm being

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too ambitious, and that fear of what people might think.

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We give it so much power. We give so much

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power away what other people might think. Maybe they do

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think it, maybe they tell us, you know, who are

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you to do that? But we don't even know. A

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lot of the time we just come up with or

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I bet you they'll think this, they'll think and then

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we go, all right, I want to.

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Do it exactly.

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We're oftentimes it's just a projection, but then we let

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it rule us.

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Yeah. Yeah, And to me, I kind of look at

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it in terms of often think of it in terms

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of power. You know, I define power as our ability

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to affect change. And when we think of powerful people,

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we often think of people in positions of power, prime minister,

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you know, ceo, et cetera. And yet we've all got power.

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We've all got power in our own lives to change things,

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you know, starting with our own attitudes, starting with what

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time we're going to get out of bed in the morning,

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starting with how we you know, invest our time, and

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how we speak the words we say everything, and so

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you know, the biggest thing that takes away our power

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is believing we don't have any And one of the

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other ways we give away our power is we give

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more power to what other people think than what we think.

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And yet all of us actually have power. We all

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have the ability to affect change. And it begins with say,

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choosing our attitude, or choosing how we spend our time,

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or choosing what time we get out of bed in

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the morning, choosing how we describe other people or our situation.

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You know, all of that. We have that power, and

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so often we give away power to what other people think.

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We actually treat, what their their opinion or what we

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think their opinion might be. We give that more power

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to direct our decisions, to decide, you know, our course

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of action, whether we'll speak up, whether we'll go after something,

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you know, what we'll do and who will actually become

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because we're so focused on you know, that approval and

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that pleasing and that fear of disapproval. And while we

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are all wired to as social creatures. We all want

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to belong, we like to be liked, we want to

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feel we're part of something by the same token, you know,

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we really disempower ourselves when we let what other people

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think matter more than what we think or what we

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really want for ourselves.

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And Maggie, I'm curious to know, in your work and

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with all the people that you've worked with, you know,

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in organizations and individually and you know, internationally, is it

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something that affects men and women equally or do you

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think that this is a lot more of a female problem.

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Yeah, Look, I think we all feel fear. No one's

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immune to fear, men and women. I absolutely think it

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manifests in different ways, and so the things that we're

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afraid of are different. You know, for men, if you

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think about some of the triggers of fear can be

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you know, shame or sense of vulnerability around something. So

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for men it's like, you know, they're afraid of appearing

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week or afraid of appearing vulnerable. For women, it's like,

302
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we really like to be liked and we're afraid to

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be disliked or you know, be seen as unlovable, and

304
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so unattractive and so so how it shows up is different,

305
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and you know, and that so much of that is

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our social conditioning, but also just how we're wired as well,

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and certainly for women, you know, we are wired for

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connection and social harmony. We're great at building relationships, you know,

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maintaining you know that you're social harmony in a group,

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and so we can be really low to say things

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that might disrupt that harmony. And so women I've found

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can be farm more reticent to have sometimes you know

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what I'd say, a candid conversation, a critical conversation, or

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to ask for something they really want, because you know,

315
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I don't want someone thinking I'm being too needy or difficult,

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and so so I'd absolutely think it can show up

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differently in terms of you know, our relationship with with

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being acting in a powerful way, acting in a way

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that you know, we we we set we're in the

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driver's seat of our own lives. Certainly, I do quite

321
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a lot, you know, working with women. I have. I've

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started running Live Brave women's weekends about five years ago

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in Australia. And one thing, you know that the reason

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I started doing them for women, I was running I've

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run programs for men and women all the time, but

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the weekends was because I see so many women I

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meet them all the time who doubt themselves too much

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and sell themselves too short and back themselves too little,

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and you know, smart women, capable women, and you know,

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then some of them are actually pretty successful, you know,

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but there's still that that imposter syndrome, like, yes, people

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are going to realize, you know, I don't know as

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much as they think, you know, and I just somehow

334
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landed this role and when are they going to cotton on?

335
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And you know, I'm afraid to put myself out there

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because I think I don't have enough experience or I'm

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not smart enough, or I'm not you know, I'm not

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something enough. And so I do see that as a

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really that phenomena that is really very prevalent in women.

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And actually, frankly, I found it even more prevalent in

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Australian women than even in women in the US or

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in other part. Really yep, yeah, I do, and I

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think that's I do think we have a really gendered

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culture in Australia and it is that it is. I

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think there is there is absolutely a leveling going on

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right now, you know, I mean the me Too wasn't

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just an American things. That phenomena of women sort of

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finding their voice and stepping into their power and you know,

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saying hey, you know, we need to level this playing field.

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But I think that takes time. That doesn't happen with

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you know, just one one true to hashtag trending. You

352
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know so, And I think that's it's an individual and

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it's a collective thing, and we need more role models.

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I think that's why it's so important to have strong

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female role models.

356
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So true.

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And I want to pick up on what you said

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about the having brave conversations because that's something that I

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see as well. I think women particularly are very fearful

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of speaking up if they worried about confrontation, worried they're

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going to upset somebody. And I noticed in your your

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I think it's your most recent book, Train the Brave,

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there's you. You have the quote for the sake of

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what are you willing to speak up? And I love

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that because do you want to talk about what that means?

366
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Yeah? Yeah, well if you think about it, I mean,

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we are wired as a species as part of our survival,

368
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we're wired for safety. We're wired to stick with security,

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to stick with familiarity, to stick with comfort, not to

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risk it. You know, we are not we I mean,

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we can be trailblazers. But there has to be a

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compelling reason to leave our comfort zone, to risk our security,

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to risk our reputation, to risk disapproval or rejection. And

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so we have to be able to answer the question

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for the sake of what am I willing to take

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that risk, for the sake of what am I willing

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to put myself out there, for the sake of what

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am I willing to sit down with this person and

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have this conversation that could potentially, you know, go really

380
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pair shaped. They might explode, they might get upset, they

381
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you know, they might reject me. I mean all sorts

382
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of things. You know, I might offend them. So we

383
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have to be really clear, what's your answer to the

384
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question for the sake of what are you willing to

385
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have that brave, slash difficult conversation or for the sake

386
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of what are you willing to you know, make that

387
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change to that part of your life life? And so yeah,

388
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and you know, one of the things I do when

389
00:19:03.559 --> 00:19:06.319
I you know, working with people and that they need

390
00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:09.119
to have conversations. And if you know my work with

391
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organizations around the around over the years is the number

392
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one thing that undermines performance in any team or organization

393
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is the conversations that need to occur aren't occurring, or

394
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they're not occurring quickly enough, or they're not occurring in

395
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a way that builds trust and grows collaboration. And so

396
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you know, the first thing I always say, set your

397
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highest intention? What is your highest intention for this conversation?

398
00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:37.920
Why is it that you need to do the very

399
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:42.000
thing that you'd really rather not do? And you know,

400
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:46.519
I'm married how long, twenty six, twenty six years this October?

401
00:19:46.839 --> 00:19:49.440
I know, I know I got married at three and

402
00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:54.599
and I know for me, early on in our relationship

403
00:19:55.160 --> 00:19:59.759
within my husband Andrew, I actually was I'd had I

404
00:19:59.799 --> 00:20:02.319
thought I sort of dealt with this bleimia, and then

405
00:20:02.319 --> 00:20:04.440
it kind of reared up again. We live, we moved

406
00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:07.599
to Puppy in New Guinea. We' being married about a year,

407
00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:12.480
and I remember just feeling so so much shame around

408
00:20:12.519 --> 00:20:16.240
it and so much embarrassment around it, and I didn't

409
00:20:16.279 --> 00:20:18.680
want to share it. I just I mean, I just

410
00:20:19.640 --> 00:20:21.519
you know, his relationship with food is eat when you're

411
00:20:21.559 --> 00:20:23.240
hungry and done it when you're not. And you know

412
00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:26.160
why we you know, like I mean, because obviously any

413
00:20:26.200 --> 00:20:30.200
eating disorder is not a logical thing to do, and

414
00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:34.000
so and so I just was like, oh, but I

415
00:20:34.039 --> 00:20:36.000
also thought, look, you know, we want to have a

416
00:20:36.039 --> 00:20:40.599
really authentic and real conversation. We've sort of said, let's

417
00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:42.480
we always want to be honest with each other. And

418
00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:46.079
here I am with this shameful thing I'm struggling with

419
00:20:46.279 --> 00:20:48.880
and I need I kind of knew I needed to

420
00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:50.799
share it, but oh I felt sick at the thought

421
00:20:50.839 --> 00:20:54.559
of it, and I and I did and because he

422
00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:57.079
loved me, he was as compassionate as he could be

423
00:20:57.119 --> 00:20:59.119
an empathetic and how can I support you, et cetera.

424
00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:01.960
But I feel that sort of de lay this groundwork,

425
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:05.279
this foundation for us in our marriage with when there's

426
00:21:05.319 --> 00:21:07.519
something that's going on for us and maybe the other

427
00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:10.079
person's pissed us off, you know, because that's happened too

428
00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:13.920
many times. It's like, you know, I need to have

429
00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:17.640
this conversation even though it's hard for me to have it,

430
00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:18.839
and I need to have it in a way that

431
00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:22.000
isn't making you wrong, and isn't you know, treating you

432
00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:24.839
with a lack of disrespect, but you know, is really

433
00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:27.880
just making sure it's very open and you know what's

434
00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:31.319
going on for me, and and you know that's that's

435
00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:34.759
massively uncomfortable at times, you know, sometimes saying I'm sorry

436
00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:38.440
I was wrong. You apologizing to someone and saying, you know,

437
00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:42.039
I'm sorry I was mean, or I was selfish, or

438
00:21:42.039 --> 00:21:44.920
that was really unkind of me or you know, in

439
00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:48.440
considerate of me. You know, sometimes that is a difficult

440
00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:50.480
thing to do. But we need to clean it up

441
00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:53.119
on our part because obviously, in any relationship, you know,

442
00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:55.960
we're half of the quality of it.

443
00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:58.319
And you know, I was just thinking as you were talking, Maggie,

444
00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:01.400
that's the really I mean, it makes so much sense.

445
00:22:01.400 --> 00:22:04.200
It's the basis of a quality relationship to be able

446
00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:06.480
to have those difficult conversations and to be able to

447
00:22:06.519 --> 00:22:08.759
be honest about how you're feeling. But it really does

448
00:22:08.839 --> 00:22:12.279
take two people, doesn't it, Because it has it requires

449
00:22:12.279 --> 00:22:15.039
one person to be brave enough to bring up the issue,

450
00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:17.240
whatever the issue might be, but it takes another person

451
00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:20.680
to be willing enough to hear it non defensively and

452
00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:22.920
you know, to take it on board and to be

453
00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:26.559
open because so often it's tricky to bring something up

454
00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:29.400
if people are very stark and defensive and will shut

455
00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:31.279
you down or turn it around and blame you. So

456
00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:33.960
it's of course it takes a mature relationship or a

457
00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:36.680
mature organizational culture or whatever it might be.

458
00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:40.200
It doesn't absolutely I mean in a personal relationship or

459
00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:42.920
a one on one relationship, you absolutely have to know

460
00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:46.000
that that person you know. I always say, you know,

461
00:22:46.119 --> 00:22:48.079
do I mean this? Can I defend it? And will

462
00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:50.000
it serve? And if you think that the person you're

463
00:22:50.039 --> 00:22:51.640
going to talk to will not be able to hear

464
00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:55.039
it and they're going to just straight away get to defensiveness,

465
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:58.319
it shows a lack of trust, then you know it doesn't.

466
00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:00.680
So I'm certainly not saying, oh, every time you think

467
00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:03.279
something you should share it. You know, you should always

468
00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:05.039
say exactly what you think to people and tell them

469
00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:07.200
exactly what you think, because that sometimes is not a

470
00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:11.079
fruitful exercise. But if you're in a certainly like in

471
00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:14.039
a marriage or a partnership, you know, if there's a

472
00:23:14.119 --> 00:23:16.880
lack of trust that this person, I trust, this person

473
00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:20.599
has my best interests at heart, and we go about

474
00:23:20.599 --> 00:23:23.680
things in a way that isn't vilifying them, because that's

475
00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:25.000
often what we can do. It's like it's all your

476
00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:27.200
bloody fault. If it wasn't for you, I wouldn't have

477
00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:28.720
done this, or I wouldn't be thinking this. And we

478
00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:32.759
have to really take one hundred percent ownership for what's

479
00:23:32.799 --> 00:23:34.599
going on for us and not put that on others,

480
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:36.519
because as soon as you make someone else wrong, they're

481
00:23:36.519 --> 00:23:38.319
going to straight away get defensive and then it all

482
00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:42.200
goes downhill. But in an organizational setting, which is where

483
00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:43.759
I guess I do a lot of my work today.

484
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:48.359
You know, it's that concept of psychological safety of do

485
00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:53.359
I feel safe to share what I got wrong, or

486
00:23:53.400 --> 00:23:55.680
to share a mistake, to share that I disagree with you,

487
00:23:55.759 --> 00:23:57.880
to share a grievance, to share that actually what you

488
00:23:57.880 --> 00:24:01.759
said yesterday hurt my feelings or is frustrating me. And

489
00:24:01.839 --> 00:24:05.079
when that psychological safety is high, I mean, research shows

490
00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:07.839
the highest performing teams have the highest levels of psychological

491
00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:12.000
safety that we know we can take those into personal risks,

492
00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:16.319
and so you know that's where everybody's part of that.

493
00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:19.359
Everyone contributes to that, but anyone who's in the leadership role,

494
00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:21.559
they really set the time.

495
00:24:22.759 --> 00:24:25.559
I hope you're enjoying season four of the show, and hey,

496
00:24:25.599 --> 00:24:27.359
I would love for you to check out my brand

497
00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:30.279
new YouTube channel where I'm sharing even more tips on

498
00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:32.599
how you can feel less crappy and more happy.

499
00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:33.799
It's YouTube dot.

500
00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:36.640
Com forward slash cast Done, So come over check it out.

501
00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:39.079
I'd love for you to subscribe, And if you haven't

502
00:24:39.079 --> 00:24:42.079
already taken my free seven day happiness challenge, you can

503
00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:47.160
sign up for that at castdone dot com, Forward slash Happiness.

504
00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:53.319
With the work that you do in organizations, Margie, so

505
00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:55.799
how do you go about creating that kind of a culture.

506
00:24:55.799 --> 00:24:58.559
Where do you begin if that's not present in an organization?

507
00:24:59.200 --> 00:25:02.599
Yeah, look, it's a complex problem and it requires a complex,

508
00:25:02.680 --> 00:25:05.759
multi lever solution. Certainly there has to be a commitment

509
00:25:05.799 --> 00:25:08.240
from the top. There absolutely has to be that from

510
00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:11.599
the most senior leadership because people play safe when they

511
00:25:11.640 --> 00:25:16.039
feel unsafe to do otherwise. And so you know, you

512
00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:18.279
can read the book and go, oh, I love this idea,

513
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:20.279
and then you know, if you know that me being

514
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:22.640
honest and having an open conversation with my boss or

515
00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:25.119
someone else is going to come back and bite me

516
00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:27.799
on the bum, then you're not going to do it,

517
00:25:27.799 --> 00:25:29.079
You're going to go I'm not going to do that

518
00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:30.920
for the sake of what. There's no good answer to that,

519
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:32.640
for the sake of nothing, you know, unless it's like

520
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:35.920
you're willing to risk your job. And so at the

521
00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:38.359
top level, it has to be communicated that that's a

522
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:40.960
value that we really want to build. What I call

523
00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:43.720
actually in my work when I run programs and speak,

524
00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:46.279
is what I call a culture of courage. How do

525
00:25:46.359 --> 00:25:49.759
you create a culture in which people are in boldened

526
00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:53.759
to take risks, to get outside their comfort zone, to

527
00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:59.359
try new ways of doing things, to push back and

528
00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:02.759
challenge old ways of doing things and old paradigms, and

529
00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:04.440
so one it's going to come from the top. There

530
00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:07.079
needs to be support where I often see it comes

531
00:26:07.240 --> 00:26:11.839
unglued and is in the middle ranks. So those at

532
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:14.160
the top say, yes, we want to create this culture.

533
00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:16.000
We want to be able to normalize want to say

534
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:19.240
normal loyal, normalize loyal dissension. We want to normalize it

535
00:26:19.319 --> 00:26:22.319
so that people feel okay to challenge, to speak up

536
00:26:22.359 --> 00:26:24.880
and challenge their boss, et cetera, et cetera. But those

537
00:26:24.920 --> 00:26:27.720
in the middle ranks have to have that sense of

538
00:26:28.079 --> 00:26:31.400
safety themselves and so often they can be very driven

539
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:34.200
by fear of protecting their spot and they're competing with

540
00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:36.079
the others, so they don't want to they don't want

541
00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:40.039
anything that might potentially make them look bad or feel bad.

542
00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:43.240
And so so you have to really be careful and

543
00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:48.359
making sure people are rewarded for building that culture within

544
00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:53.559
their teams, and that you're measuring that that those people

545
00:26:53.559 --> 00:26:58.079
who are really building empowering cultures where people do feel

546
00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:01.519
that they have the delegate to make decisions and that

547
00:27:01.559 --> 00:27:03.720
they can speak up and challenge. And so, you know,

548
00:27:03.720 --> 00:27:05.599
there's lots of ways that you can measure that in

549
00:27:05.720 --> 00:27:09.160
organizational settings, but you know, on an individual, let level,

550
00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:12.240
i'd say to a leader, encourage people when they speak

551
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:14.920
up and try things. Don't say that was a stupid idea.

552
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:18.920
Why did you say that. Encourage them to take on

553
00:27:19.319 --> 00:27:21.400
challenges that you know where there's a risk they might

554
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:23.359
fall short. I mean, that doesn't mean you're going to

555
00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:27.000
risk the risk the company budget on it. But yeah,

556
00:27:27.079 --> 00:27:31.440
let's give this a go. Set learning goals really tap

557
00:27:31.519 --> 00:27:35.720
into the collective value from failures. How can we make

558
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:37.960
sure every day every week when we get together and go, hey,

559
00:27:38.039 --> 00:27:40.599
what is it we learned this week from what we

560
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:44.000
tried that could have been done better. You know, if

561
00:27:44.039 --> 00:27:46.319
people aren't failing, then they're certainly not going to be

562
00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:50.240
optimizing the learning and the growth and the innovation. And

563
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:54.160
certainly I think it's really important to make sure that

564
00:27:54.200 --> 00:27:56.279
people know you've got their back. You know, if you

565
00:27:56.359 --> 00:27:59.640
try this and it doesn't land perfectly, I've got your back.

566
00:27:59.759 --> 00:28:01.920
You know, we're in this together where we're trying to

567
00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:03.960
come up with the best outcomes, and the best outcomes

568
00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:07.079
are going to come from all of us contributing our ideas,

569
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:08.640
sharing our learning along the way.

570
00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:12.880
It's just it's such a nice reframing of the whole

571
00:28:12.920 --> 00:28:15.599
failure thing, isn't it, Because the fear of failure gets

572
00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:19.519
in so many people's way, I mean, personally, professionally, in

573
00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:22.599
every way, and so to be able to reframe that

574
00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:25.519
even in your own mind about you know, what have

575
00:28:25.559 --> 00:28:27.519
I learned or how is this a stepping stone?

576
00:28:27.640 --> 00:28:30.319
Or it's just you know, it can make all the difference.

577
00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:32.440
Yeah. And I mean, as you know the work of

578
00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:35.759
Carol Dweck with the growth versus fixed mindset, you know,

579
00:28:35.799 --> 00:28:37.720
it's nice to say I have a growth mindset. Yeah,

580
00:28:37.720 --> 00:28:39.720
I go have a growth mindset. But to have a

581
00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:43.680
growth mindset, you have to embrace the value of failure.

582
00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:46.079
You have to say I am not just willing to

583
00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:50.720
risk it. I'm well and truly embracing failure as part

584
00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:53.519
and parcel of what it takes for success. And so,

585
00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:56.920
you know, the higher the tolerance for failure, I say,

586
00:28:57.039 --> 00:28:59.440
you know micro experiments, you know, you know, bank the

587
00:28:59.480 --> 00:29:01.880
family far on something. But how can you have a

588
00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:04.119
have a have an environment where people are like, let's

589
00:29:04.119 --> 00:29:05.880
try this out. Let's see if that works. And if

590
00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:07.640
it doesn't, we go, Okay, well that didn't work. But

591
00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:09.079
what we what do we learn from that that we

592
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:13.160
can take and tweak and and make better. Another idea,

593
00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:16.920
and so I think that idea of of of really

594
00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:21.359
embracing failure and giving yourself permission to fail. And I

595
00:29:21.400 --> 00:29:24.880
think that includes, you know, that idea of perfectionism as well,

596
00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:29.200
so that I think sometimes women struggle with more than men.

597
00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:35.200
Give yourself permission not to do things perfectly, give yourself

598
00:29:35.240 --> 00:29:39.559
permission not to you know, write the masterpiece, to not

599
00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:42.759
to have the most brilliant looking power point deck in

600
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:46.160
the history of PowerPoint decks, or to do the most

601
00:29:46.599 --> 00:29:48.920
you know, kick ass presentation, in the in the in

602
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:51.480
the world of you know, sales pitches. You know, give

603
00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:57.519
yourself permission to to not know everything, do it brilliantly

604
00:29:57.640 --> 00:30:01.319
first time every time, and I hope for me. You know,

605
00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:03.079
I don't know if it's part of growing up on

606
00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:06.319
a farm or one of seven kids, having four kids

607
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:09.680
myself when I sort of started down this second career path.

608
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:13.680
But I know I would never any of the worthwhile

609
00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:16.920
things I've done if I had waited until I knew

610
00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:19.440
exactly what I was doing. You know, all of the

611
00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:24.119
progress I've made has been made by sort of just

612
00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:26.839
going all right, let's give this a go, and tweaking

613
00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:29.039
and pivoting as we go along. You know, you've got

614
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:31.440
giving myself permission to go. Well, I feel like I'm

615
00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:33.799
winging it a bit here. I'm not exactly sure, but

616
00:30:34.519 --> 00:30:37.240
oh god, you know, and I don't want to look

617
00:30:37.240 --> 00:30:39.279
back and go what if I tried? And I think

618
00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:42.720
that's where that fear you can flip fear, flip it

619
00:30:42.759 --> 00:30:45.079
on its head instead of going, God, what will happen

620
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:47.799
if I try? How will I feel? I'll feel terrible.

621
00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:50.440
I know I'm going to feel like a loser. Ask yourself,

622
00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:53.519
you know, how will you feel if you don't try?

623
00:30:53.799 --> 00:30:55.839
How will you feel if you don't do it? And

624
00:30:56.160 --> 00:30:58.000
don't just think a week from now, think a year

625
00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:00.240
from now, think at the end of your life, and

626
00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:03.079
ask yourself, you know, what is it that you need

627
00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:06.039
to be afraid of if you don't do it? Because

628
00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:08.759
so often, you know, we let our fear of what

629
00:31:08.839 --> 00:31:10.720
might happen if we do do it, but we don't

630
00:31:10.759 --> 00:31:13.480
give due consideration to, well, what do I need to

631
00:31:13.480 --> 00:31:17.240
be afraid of if I don't do it? And part

632
00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:21.480
of that is because our wiring is we are actually

633
00:31:21.519 --> 00:31:25.160
our brains are twice as sensitive to potential losses as

634
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:28.119
they are of potential gains. So whenever we're thinking of

635
00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:30.400
like do I speak up, do I try this, do

636
00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:33.839
I make this change, take this chance, we are actually

637
00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:37.920
twice as sensitive to what could go wrong and how

638
00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:40.440
we could fail on what could go right and how

639
00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:46.720
we might succeed. And so we literally terrorize ourselves and

640
00:31:47.319 --> 00:31:50.279
scare ourselves and paralyze ourselves, and we go, oh, I'll

641
00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:52.079
just stick with I'll just stick with what I'm doing now,

642
00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:53.839
it's not so bad, and we come up with all

643
00:31:53.839 --> 00:31:57.000
sorts of justifications Oh, look, you know, at least I've

644
00:31:57.000 --> 00:31:58.599
got a job, well, at least he doesn't beat me,

645
00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:01.079
or at least you know, I'm up with all of

646
00:32:01.119 --> 00:32:04.079
these reasons why we should just stick with where we are,

647
00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:07.359
when in fact, the bigger risk we're taking is not

648
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:08.200
taking the risk.

649
00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:10.720
So you're saying, really, if we shift the focus to

650
00:32:11.400 --> 00:32:14.839
being more afraid about how we might feel in five

651
00:32:14.920 --> 00:32:17.799
years time if we don't try, that can kind of

652
00:32:17.799 --> 00:32:19.480
give us the impetus to have a go.

653
00:32:20.200 --> 00:32:22.599
Yeah. Absolutely, I mean if you think about it, you know,

654
00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:25.880
as we're more we're motivated to seek pleasure and avoid pain,

655
00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:29.440
but we're more motivated to move away from pain. So

656
00:32:29.480 --> 00:32:32.279
sometimes you've really got to actually, I mean what I

657
00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:35.480
do when I run, you know, whether it's my women's

658
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:38.960
weekends or it's my programs, I try and get a

659
00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:43.000
bit emotional leverage. How bad and lousy are you going

660
00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:46.200
to feel if you stick with where you are now?

661
00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:49.400
I mean, how miserable will you feel? And you know

662
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:51.880
you want people to go, Oh, I'll feel really bad

663
00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:54.200
if I don't change this. So if I don't do this,

664
00:32:54.279 --> 00:32:56.599
I'm going to really regret that. You know, I'm like,

665
00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:59.200
I want people to feel really bad because that's where

666
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:01.960
you get that emotional leverage. And you know, there's some

667
00:33:02.119 --> 00:33:04.599
so much research out there that shows at the end

668
00:33:04.680 --> 00:33:09.440
of our lives people regret way more the risks that

669
00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:12.920
they did not take. Those chances they did not take.

670
00:33:13.319 --> 00:33:15.880
You know, they didn't move to the other city for

671
00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:18.279
the job because oh, you know it was they were

672
00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:20.279
afraid it wouldn't work out, or they didn't say yes

673
00:33:20.359 --> 00:33:23.720
to you know, the adventure, or they didn't you know,

674
00:33:24.759 --> 00:33:27.119
say yes to that person who they thought was wonderful

675
00:33:27.160 --> 00:33:29.640
because oh they were afraid of the commitment. Whatever, even

676
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:32.599
when it doesn't work out, because when things don't work out,

677
00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:35.599
we still learn, right, we've still learned. We've had we've

678
00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:40.319
had an incredible experience, we learned something where we've grown.

679
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:43.440
We're a wiser person now where you know, a more

680
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:46.359
whole person. We're more compassionate, we've learned all sorts of things.

681
00:33:46.359 --> 00:33:49.680
We've built connections, we've grown, we've gained knowledge. But when

682
00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:53.279
we don't try it, we actually miss out. We deprive

683
00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:57.720
ourselves of all of that potential learning and growth. And

684
00:33:57.759 --> 00:34:00.359
so you know, people who never take a risk are

685
00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:03.839
not very big people. They tend to live way smaller

686
00:34:03.880 --> 00:34:07.160
lives than they have it within them to live. And

687
00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:10.280
to me, that's a that's a real that's a real tragedy.

688
00:34:10.760 --> 00:34:11.159
It is.

689
00:34:11.400 --> 00:34:14.599
And what you said earlier is something that's really something

690
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:16.519
that I've really taken on board too, which is that

691
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:20.719
whole idea of start before you're ready. And because I

692
00:34:20.840 --> 00:34:23.480
spend a long time too, I used to hold myself

693
00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:25.760
back and polish things up and have to get another

694
00:34:25.880 --> 00:34:28.320
do another course, or study something else before I was

695
00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:32.320
ready to do whatever. And when you can really embrace that,

696
00:34:32.440 --> 00:34:35.119
just start, just start before you're ready, and then learn

697
00:34:35.159 --> 00:34:37.719
as you go, or learn the lessons or whatever, or

698
00:34:37.719 --> 00:34:41.760
at the very least you realize that it's actually actually

699
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:42.599
what you know is enough.

700
00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:45.039
Yeah, Because and I think if you don't.

701
00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:47.800
Take that risk, and I say this to anybody listening,

702
00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:49.280
because I know there's lots of people who will be

703
00:34:49.320 --> 00:34:52.719
stuck in this spot. You never give yourself the opportunity

704
00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:55.679
to prove to yourself that you are enough, that you

705
00:34:55.800 --> 00:34:59.760
know enough, you know, you just stay stuck, continuing, continuing

706
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:01.519
to buy into that story that you're still not.

707
00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:04.920
I couldn't. I couldn't agree more. It's absolutely that's sort

708
00:35:04.920 --> 00:35:09.320
of been something that's really driven me, or it's really

709
00:35:09.760 --> 00:35:13.480
it's given me the freedom to try to just go, well,

710
00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:15.440
you know what if I tried And you know, we

711
00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:17.559
talk about that, that concept of imposter syndrome as little

712
00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:20.719
voice going oh, I'm afraid. You know, that's just our fear.

713
00:35:20.920 --> 00:35:23.880
It's our fear that we're not enough. And only when

714
00:35:23.880 --> 00:35:26.880
we do the very things that that fear wants us

715
00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:29.360
not to do, do we realize that that fear is

716
00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:32.000
the impostor, that's the impostor. It's the one that's sitting

717
00:35:32.039 --> 00:35:34.000
there going oh no, you're not good enough, you're not

718
00:35:34.039 --> 00:35:36.960
smart enough, you're not experienced enough. And we never get

719
00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:39.760
to realize heck, yeah I was and I am and

720
00:35:39.840 --> 00:35:43.239
I could and I did, and I know for me

721
00:35:43.880 --> 00:35:47.119
that has happened so many times. It's by doing the

722
00:35:47.159 --> 00:35:51.360
thing that frankly bloody terrified to do. I'm really there isn't.

723
00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:53.159
Every time I get on stage, it's all the voice

724
00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:55.400
in my head going, I don't they're going to realize

725
00:35:55.400 --> 00:35:56.800
you don't know as much as you think. You know,

726
00:35:56.920 --> 00:35:58.639
they think you're really good of me, You're really not.

727
00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:01.960
And I'm like, I kind of thank you shut up,

728
00:36:02.239 --> 00:36:04.920
and then you know, let me just breathe in faith,

729
00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:08.159
breathe out fear, Off I go. And it really is

730
00:36:08.239 --> 00:36:12.320
about learning to manage that little voice and to not

731
00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:15.000
let it call the shots. And I think far too

732
00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:18.320
often we can let that voice of self doubt call

733
00:36:18.360 --> 00:36:23.280
the shots, and when it calls the shots, we can

734
00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:27.280
never ever discover how, how, how how how little reason

735
00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:31.000
we ever had to believe it. And so I often say, actually,

736
00:36:31.079 --> 00:36:33.599
my my, my current book that I'm working on, which

737
00:36:33.639 --> 00:36:37.239
will come out next year in March, you know, is

738
00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:40.119
about learning to doubt those doubts, Like how do you

739
00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:42.639
learn to doubt those doubts? And to your point, to

740
00:36:42.679 --> 00:36:45.760
start before you're ready, and to trust yourself You've got this,

741
00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:50.000
it's you can do it, and it's it's that's that's

742
00:36:50.039 --> 00:36:52.679
why it takes courage, that's about that's what living bravely

743
00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:53.159
is about.

744
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:57.119
So I think that the real take home out of

745
00:36:57.199 --> 00:37:00.760
all of that conversation, Margie, is that we need to

746
00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:04.320
not wait to not feel fear. I think so many

747
00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:08.239
people say, when I am no longer afraid, when I'm

748
00:37:08.280 --> 00:37:10.719
no longer anxious, or when I'm no longer whatever, then

749
00:37:10.760 --> 00:37:13.239
I'll be able to do that thing. And we've got

750
00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:15.199
to just learn that we have to take some fear

751
00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:19.119
along for the ride, not expected to ever completely go away.

752
00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:22.440
Yeah, I absolutely agree with you that do not wait

753
00:37:22.519 --> 00:37:25.360
until you feel confident. I can't if I had a

754
00:37:25.400 --> 00:37:27.639
dollar for every time someone said, oh, I'm just not

755
00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:30.119
confident enough at the moment, or I'm I'm just not

756
00:37:30.199 --> 00:37:32.360
ready enough, or I'm just not sure of myself, I'm

757
00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:36.039
just not sure it's the right thing, And I'm like, oh, honestly,

758
00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:38.239
you could be eighty nine years old just waiting to

759
00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:43.800
be confident enough to do that thing, and so absolutely right,

760
00:37:44.039 --> 00:37:46.920
do not wait until you are confident enough or you're

761
00:37:46.960 --> 00:37:51.800
sure enough. Just make that call, take put yourself out there.

762
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:55.000
And you know there's a physical aspect to it too.

763
00:37:55.039 --> 00:37:57.280
You know, take a big, deep breath, you know, close

764
00:37:57.320 --> 00:37:59.679
your eyes, put your hand on your heart, connect with

765
00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:02.119
what it is as you most want, take a few

766
00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:04.800
those big breasts right into your botom of the bottom

767
00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:07.079
of your belly. You know, I just really breathe in

768
00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:11.480
that that belief, that courage, that faith, and breathe out

769
00:38:11.599 --> 00:38:14.719
the fear, the doubt, the anxiety, and I think, you know,

770
00:38:14.840 --> 00:38:17.440
putting ourselves in the space, you know, that we all

771
00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:20.119
kind of that power post. But really, how we hold

772
00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:26.639
ourselves physically can shift our psychology. And so really stand

773
00:38:26.760 --> 00:38:29.760
as you stand as the brave hearted person that you

774
00:38:29.880 --> 00:38:32.400
want to be, as the strong person. I've got this,

775
00:38:32.519 --> 00:38:34.000
I'm going to I'm going to figure this out. I'm

776
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:35.960
going to nail it. Whatever happens, I can handle it.

777
00:38:36.519 --> 00:38:38.519
You know, that can actually help us then step into

778
00:38:38.559 --> 00:38:41.119
action in that moment that we need to step into

779
00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:44.400
action or have that or to have that conversation we

780
00:38:44.519 --> 00:38:46.079
might need to have with someone as well.

781
00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:47.639
Yeah, I love that.

782
00:38:47.719 --> 00:38:53.199
I feel inspired good, Muggie, Maggie speaking of you know

783
00:38:53.239 --> 00:38:55.599
that that conversation. So we talked a lot about you know,

784
00:38:56.199 --> 00:38:59.679
organizational stuff, and I'm just conscious of anybody listening who's thinking, oh, yeah,

785
00:38:59.679 --> 00:39:02.239
there is that tricky conversation I need to have with

786
00:39:02.280 --> 00:39:04.599
my partner or my best friend who upset me, or

787
00:39:04.599 --> 00:39:07.760
that person who you know, like in a personal social situation,

788
00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:12.639
family member, If anybody's thinking, oh, like, how do I

789
00:39:12.679 --> 00:39:14.159
do that? What do I do or how do I

790
00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:18.039
take that first step in that on a personal level?

791
00:39:18.239 --> 00:39:18.960
Any advice?

792
00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:24.159
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I've got a course on my website

793
00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:24.639
you can get.

794
00:39:24.639 --> 00:39:26.880
But well, I we'll point people to that.

795
00:39:26.960 --> 00:39:31.360
You know, I know absolutely I one. As I said earlier,

796
00:39:31.559 --> 00:39:35.199
you know, get really clear about the intention that you're

797
00:39:35.239 --> 00:39:39.639
set you're trying to serve here, because sometimes when we're upset,

798
00:39:41.199 --> 00:39:44.480
our brains automatically go to make ourselves right and others roll.

799
00:39:45.199 --> 00:39:48.039
And so if you're entering into a conversation and you're

800
00:39:48.159 --> 00:39:50.719
pessed with someone and I'm going to let you know

801
00:39:51.119 --> 00:39:53.920
that you freaking messed up, it's your fault, and you're

802
00:39:53.920 --> 00:39:59.480
in the space of blame or vindictiveness, then you know,

803
00:39:59.559 --> 00:40:02.119
I'll I guarantee you right now it's not going to

804
00:40:02.199 --> 00:40:06.000
go well. So we have to really keep our own

805
00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:08.559
emotions in check and be really clear about the highest

806
00:40:08.599 --> 00:40:11.480
intention we're trying to serve. We need to challenge whatever

807
00:40:11.559 --> 00:40:13.880
our own story is. And we all have stories, you know,

808
00:40:13.960 --> 00:40:16.000
it's like and a lot of stories can be us

809
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:19.519
as a victim you did this to me, or we

810
00:40:19.639 --> 00:40:21.639
cast someone else as the villain. You know, you're a

811
00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:24.639
complete and utter, you know, whatever it is. And so

812
00:40:24.920 --> 00:40:27.599
we've got to really check what's going on for me,

813
00:40:27.679 --> 00:40:31.400
what am I bringing into this conversation. Because our stories

814
00:40:31.440 --> 00:40:33.480
that we're living in about someone else and what they

815
00:40:33.519 --> 00:40:36.360
did wrong, what they failed to do, whatever they actually

816
00:40:36.360 --> 00:40:39.639
can be these massive roadblocks for a fruitful conversation. And

817
00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:42.960
so going into the conversation with that intention of I

818
00:40:43.159 --> 00:40:45.599
really trying to I want to resolve this issue, or

819
00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:47.400
I want to just let this person know this is

820
00:40:47.480 --> 00:40:52.280
how I'm feeling because I value this relationship and this

821
00:40:52.360 --> 00:40:54.679
thing that happened is kind of getting in the way

822
00:40:54.719 --> 00:40:58.159
of me feeling like I could move forward and whatever

823
00:40:58.199 --> 00:41:00.840
it is, Just and go into that conversation from a

824
00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:04.000
very from a very authentic place, be willing to be vulnerable,

825
00:41:04.360 --> 00:41:06.159
to share what's going on for you, but not in

826
00:41:06.199 --> 00:41:11.599
a way that makes them wrong, because yeah, I just

827
00:41:11.679 --> 00:41:14.719
think that's where things can go downhill. That's we're also

828
00:41:14.840 --> 00:41:17.199
just asking, you know, what's going on for you. You know,

829
00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:18.559
I feel like there's been a bit of a tension

830
00:41:18.599 --> 00:41:20.480
here and I don't want that. I don't want that

831
00:41:20.519 --> 00:41:21.719
for us. I don't want for me, I don't want

832
00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:23.079
for you. I don't want it for us. You know,

833
00:41:23.480 --> 00:41:25.800
I'd love to know, you know, how are you feeling,

834
00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:30.000
And maybe maybe they'll share, and maybe they won't, but

835
00:41:30.119 --> 00:41:33.079
just be careful you don't kind of put up your defensiveness,

836
00:41:33.079 --> 00:41:35.480
and because if really you end up in a battle

837
00:41:35.880 --> 00:41:38.360
and someone if someone's going to win coming out of

838
00:41:38.360 --> 00:41:39.920
this and someone else is going to lose, in which

839
00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:42.960
case the relationship loses. It's not about winners and losers here.

840
00:41:43.239 --> 00:41:45.199
It's about how do we find a path forward that

841
00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:48.880
has us both feeling respected and taken care of and

842
00:41:48.920 --> 00:41:51.920
this and working through whatever issue it is in a

843
00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:55.280
way that we both neither of us feel like we've

844
00:41:55.320 --> 00:41:58.199
had to give all the ground and you know, owning

845
00:41:58.239 --> 00:42:01.400
your part. I think sometimes sometimes, you know, I'll say

846
00:42:01.400 --> 00:42:04.079
to people, own your part, you know, where do you

847
00:42:04.119 --> 00:42:06.559
need to go? You know, I realize I should have

848
00:42:06.599 --> 00:42:09.280
said something, you know, I should have spoken up earlier.

849
00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:11.519
I realized that, you know, I know I said this

850
00:42:11.559 --> 00:42:13.960
and did this, and that probably was hard for you,

851
00:42:13.960 --> 00:42:16.519
you know. And I'm sorry for how I've contributed to

852
00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:19.280
this situation. But I'd really like to find a way forward.

853
00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:21.599
And I think when we're coming from that place of

854
00:42:21.639 --> 00:42:27.400
genuine love, you know, and versus fear or anger, then

855
00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:30.239
we're going to have a way better outcome. And it's

856
00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:34.119
my experience that what comes from that heart space lands

857
00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:38.159
on the heart space, and people they'll lower their defensiveness

858
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:41.639
if they don't think you're out there to put them

859
00:42:41.639 --> 00:42:43.800
in the in the in the corner where they're wrong.

860
00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:46.599
And sometimes people might assume that you are. If you've

861
00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:49.320
often been on attack, you've set up that pattern and

862
00:42:49.320 --> 00:42:52.360
that expectation, and just recognize you have to work to

863
00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:55.400
build trust so that they're not going to come, you know,

864
00:42:55.480 --> 00:42:57.840
respond to you from a place of defensiveness.

865
00:42:58.320 --> 00:42:59.639
That's such great advice.

866
00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:02.360
I love what you said then about just because we

867
00:43:02.440 --> 00:43:06.360
come to these situations often we are so convinced of

868
00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:09.679
our position and we know exactly how we've been slighted

869
00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:13.400
or you know, disrespected or whatever it has been. But

870
00:43:13.559 --> 00:43:16.639
to actually say, well, how do you feel about this situation?

871
00:43:16.679 --> 00:43:19.239
Because guarantee the other person will have their take on

872
00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:22.079
it and their spin on it, which we've probably not

873
00:43:22.119 --> 00:43:25.519
even considered, so immediately there's space there to have a

874
00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:27.679
much more open dialogue.

875
00:43:27.960 --> 00:43:30.960
Yeah, and that's where listening is really important, because they

876
00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:33.079
might say well actually, and then they'll have, you know,

877
00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:35.480
maybe they're going to make you a villain. Don't respond

878
00:43:35.559 --> 00:43:37.519
to anger with anger because that just makes it worse.

879
00:43:37.639 --> 00:43:39.960
Just just sit there and acknowledge it. I can see

880
00:43:39.960 --> 00:43:42.719
you're really angry. I can see that's you know, you

881
00:43:42.920 --> 00:43:45.440
clearly feel I've done the wrong thing. It doesn't mean

882
00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:47.960
you're agreeing with them, but you can acknowledge that that's

883
00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:50.719
what's gone on for them. Maybe who knows, maybe you're

884
00:43:50.719 --> 00:43:53.920
going to open up Mountvesuvius. But I think that's where

885
00:43:54.800 --> 00:43:58.840
how you respond matters profoundly in terms of just keeping

886
00:43:58.880 --> 00:44:02.880
building trust, created that safety, that psychological safety in your

887
00:44:03.239 --> 00:44:07.719
relationship space. And I'm making sure other people feel heard.

888
00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:12.719
So many people are hungry to feel heard, and you know,

889
00:44:13.039 --> 00:44:16.239
just taking time to go. I just want to know

890
00:44:16.320 --> 00:44:18.000
how this has been for you. I want to know

891
00:44:18.039 --> 00:44:21.079
your perspective on this. You may not agree with their perspective,

892
00:44:21.119 --> 00:44:24.639
you may think they're completely and utterly wrong, but just listen,

893
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:27.320
not with the intention to fight back. I have to

894
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:29.599
think we say we're listening and we're really reloading. We're

895
00:44:29.639 --> 00:44:31.239
just waiting for you to pause long enough to go, No,

896
00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:33.239
you're wrong on that, that was your fault, that wasn't me.

897
00:44:33.679 --> 00:44:37.880
But actually just listen. Just let them feel really heard,

898
00:44:38.599 --> 00:44:44.320
acknowledge it, Acknowledge their pain, acknowledge their fear, acknowledge their hurt. Yeah,

899
00:44:44.360 --> 00:44:46.159
I get that, you know, I hadn't thought of it

900
00:44:46.199 --> 00:44:48.159
that way. I get that must have been hard for you.

901
00:44:48.639 --> 00:44:51.079
And if you are willing to come from that place

902
00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:55.239
of being very generous and compassionate and empathetic toward them,

903
00:44:55.440 --> 00:45:00.400
you know it can just create this massive clearing to go. Okay,

904
00:45:00.679 --> 00:45:04.000
you know, Truce, you know, neither of us here imperfect,

905
00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:07.000
neither of us here are completely innocent. And how this unfolded?

906
00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:08.039
How can we find a way forward?

907
00:45:08.519 --> 00:45:11.280
Maggie, thank you so much for taking the time. It's

908
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:11.880
been a pleasure.

909
00:45:12.239 --> 00:45:14.400
It has been a pleasure for me too. Thanks for

910
00:45:14.440 --> 00:45:15.119
asking me on.

911
00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:22.599
You can find more about Margie on her website margieworld

912
00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:25.519
dot com or follow her on social media, where she's

913
00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:28.280
always sharing inspiring content to help you step out of

914
00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:34.480
your comfort zone and into your best, bravest life. My

915
00:45:34.599 --> 00:45:37.280
new book, Crappy to Happy, Love What You Do is

916
00:45:37.320 --> 00:45:39.320
out in all good bookstores, so if you want to

917
00:45:39.320 --> 00:45:42.280
find more happy in work, go and check it out.

918
00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:46.239
On the next episode, I'm talking to Tom Cronan about

919
00:45:46.239 --> 00:45:50.920
how he used meditation to recover from debilitating stress and anxiety,

920
00:45:51.199 --> 00:45:53.480
and how he now believes that meditation has the.

921
00:45:53.480 --> 00:45:56.159
Power to change the world. As the founder of the

922
00:45:56.239 --> 00:45:57.239
Stillness Project.

923
00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:00.719
He has huge, ambitious goals and an inspire sharing message

924
00:46:00.719 --> 00:46:01.119
to share.

925
00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:06.400
Crappy to Happy is presented by Cass Dunn, produced by

926
00:46:06.440 --> 00:46:16.199
Davis Lensky, Audio production by Darcy Thompson. Listener