Living bravely with Margie Warrell

0:02 A listener production. Hey guys, you're listening to Crappy to Happy. I'm cas done. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist, a mindfulness meditation teacher, and author of the Crappy to Happy books. In this series, we look at all of the factors that might be making you feel crappy and give you the tools and the techniques that will help you to overcome them. In each episode, I introduce you to interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their field, and my hope is that they will help you feel less crappy and more happy. In this episode, I'm so excited to be talking to Margie Worrell all the way from her home in Singapore. Margie started her second career as a life coach around the same time that I did, and she and I found we share some similarities in terms of our early lives growing up in small towns. Margie is now an author, a coach, and an international speaker who is passionate about helping people to step into courage and live a braver life.

1:00 The topic of self confidence, especially for women, comes up a lot on this show, and I loved hearing Margie's advice about how we can all train the brave within us. Margie, thank you so much for being on the show. It's great to be with you. For anybody who is not familiar with your work, can you give us a little bit of your background and what led you to doing the work you do now, which is predominantly about living bravely. Yeah. Look, I'm trying to come up with that in twenty five words or less. So grew up one of seven kids on a dairy farm in rural Victoria. Started my working life in the corporate world, but then a whole series of events, including you know, having to deal with having an eating disorder through my teens and early twenties and just various different experiences led me to going, you know what, I want to change career. So in my late twenties and then early thirties, I went back to UNI. I studied psychology, and then I heard about coaching, So then I actually moved to the US as well in the midst of all of this and having four kids, trained as a coach and launched then a coaching business while I was living in America, and then that has just really just organically evolved to the point today where I do a lot more speaking and writing, just working on my fifth book at the moment, and yeah, I've done you know, obviously stuff in the media as well, you know, in Australia, in Asia, in the USA. So yeah, it's kind of been an interesting unfolding. But for me, it's been always very very driven by you know, how

2:30 do I help people get out of their own way? And the biggest thing that gets in our way, as you know, can be our fear, fear of failing, falling, short, rejection, disapproval, and so so a lot of my work is really about helping people live and lead more bravely. From your perspective, what does it mean? Again? Could you sum it up quite you know in the twenty five words? Alay, what does it mean to live bravely? Yeah? So what does that mean? You know? I think that obviously means different things for different people, because we are all different, We have different personalities, different things that excite us. And but that the core of living bravely is being willing to take action amid our fears and our doubts and that vulnerable, queasy feeling in our stomach that's like, oh my god, what if I try and I fall and I fail, And so it is really about taking emotional risks, and that's often easier said than done, you know, getting outside our comfort zone. We talk about that, we know that concept of a comfort zone for a reason because that's really uncomfortable. But that's that's at the heart of it.

3:36 So right, and I see it too. There's so much fear that gets in our way. But do you find too that, like a lot of that stuff, it's really it's operating at an unconscious level. Like oftentimes it's not even conscious. We think, oh, yeah, I can do that, but then we're procrastinating and we're avoiding, or we're just doing ten other things, or we're you know, and it's got to kind of dig a bit deeper, don't we. Yeah, No, absolutely, And you know, for instance, you know, I'll meet people who'll say, oh, no, I'm not afraid of anything. You know, I'm not afraid. No, it's all cool. You know, your stuff's really nice, Margie, but it doesn't relate to me. And then I talk to them and they're unhappy in their marriage, and I'm like, well, why don't you talk to your you know, your husband about that? Oh? Look, you know, we just don't have those conversations. I'm like, you know, why not, Well, they're so awkward. I'm like, well, there's fear right there. Or people are unhappy in their relation and their friendships. You know, it's like, oh, just get so sick of this group of people. I'm like, well, what about you reach out and build new relationships, go and join some groups. Oh, and that's just so I It's just I hate going off to those sort of events, network events, or I don't know anyone. I'm like, well, what's what's going on there? And I think about how often I do a lot of speaking at events, and sometimes there's a Q and A and you know, they'll say, are there any questions? And no one puts their hand up?

4:53 And sometimes it's one brave person. Often it's someone like the person that's engaged me I will put their hand up and ask a question. And once the first one has come, then lots of hands go up, and I think, what is that if not our fear that people are going to judge the question we're asking? So true and so fear. Yeah, it doesn't always show up as the paralysis you have when you're going to go skydiving. It can be insidious and creep into our lives in all sorts of ways, and you know, into our relationships is such when I kind of look at this, so many people have so much stress and suffering in their relationships, and you know, if you dig deep into that and get underneath it, somewhere along the line, you know, fear started calling the shots. They didn't have the conversation that they needed to have. They didn't say no, and they tolerated something because they thought it was the best that they could do, and they were afraid of being alone.

5:44 They're afraid of being rejected, and so fear in so many ways, you know, to anyone that's listening, you know, I think about you know, where is that you think of a problem you've got, and then if you'd kind of drill down deeply enough, underneath it is fear in sight. For it's sort of at the crux of everything. Any change you would like to make, any thing that you want to do differently in your life, you have to push past that resistance. Yeah, and the same for even you know, achieving goals. You know you've got this podcast right, you know, at the start of it, you had to launch it, and I'm sure you didn't quite know what you. Were doing, right, you were like, ah, I had no idea. Yeah, And there was probably a little bit apprehensime about, oh god, I hope I don't screw this up, you know, I hope this isn't And.

6:27 Then it went out there and it was, oh my gosh, like, what's the feedback going to be? What will people think? You know, even even once it's out there and I've just written two books too, and people go, what an achievement? And then but even having them out there in the stores, there's always this voice that says, but what if people don't like it? What if I don't think it ever really goes away? No, no, it doesn't ever go away. It does not go away. And I know that I'm working on my fifth book at the moment, and you know, I'm going to probably rework the introduction because the introduction is you know, there's a voice inside my head now that's going, who are you to write this book? You know I've got you know, that's it's it's there, it's ever present, and to me, that's where, you know, part of what living a brave life is is not letting that little voice call the shots, because that little voice of self doubt, that little voice of the inner critic. It's like, who the hell do you think you are to, you know, write a book, launch a podcast. In fact, it's funny. I remember back to my very first book. I had I think four kids under the age of seven or so. I've been coaching for a couple of years, and a few people said, you know, you should write a book. And I went to a little school that had one room, you know, in a part of eastern East Gippsland, you know, called Nongerner.

7:35 And it was I don't know. We had thirteen kids one year and seventeen the next, but there wasn't a lot. There was one teacher, you know, Grandma where the apostrophes go. Wasn't you know, the highest priority? Like could we just be literate when we back back in those days? And so I was always really mindful of you know, I didn't study writing. I'm not like some literary genius or anything like that. And I remember kind of toying with this idea of writing a book. And I remember saying to my husband, you know, you know, it's like, it's not like I'm a brilliant writer, and you know, it's like not like I've got all the answers, and it's not like, you know, I don't really know what I'm doing. And I mean this is before social media. I don't even have a platform. I've got like one hundred friends or buy one maybe, and you know, and I remember him saying, honey, why don't you just write the best book you can right now? And when you're old and wise and you do have all the answers, then you could write another book then. And it was giving myself permission to write an imperfect book and to be inadequate for the task of writing a book that actually allowed me to write that first book, which was called Find Your Courage. And there's no irony loss that I had to really find my courage to write the book called Find Your Courage. And I think, I think it's so true for all of us. And I think also being Australian too, you know, I was living in America when I actually started writing that book, and frankly, the culture there is much more sort of celebrates go out. Yeah that's great, Yeah, sure, sure you should be an author.

9:05 And I remember when I told my family is sitting around Christmas Day the year before I started writing this book, I'm thinking of writing a book, and my brothers said to me, what are you going to write a book about? You know, like who do you think you are? And so it's that little voice of who do you think you are? To do that that so often stops us even coming out the gate. That's a really interesting point that you make too, about the difference in the Australian culture and the American culture. I've heard that from so many people, particularly you know in our sort of work too, who go over to America to attend, you know, coaching groups and mastermizing things, and they just say, it's so different, that whole so much more just willing to have a go, and everybody is so much more supportive and collaborative. And this is probably off topic, but you know, that tall poppy thing that we have in Australia is very is very real and very Australian.

9:57 Actually, it's funny. I actually wrote about that in Fire and Your Courage, I called I wrote about having tall poppy courage and my small poppy committee, because I think there's actually a value in naming the voice in your head. And I was, igne's a whole committee I called it my small Poppy Committee, and my small Poppy Committee did then and still does, want me to play small and play safe, don't stick your neck out, don't aspire to anything too big, don't put yourself out there where people go, who the hell does she think she is? You know? And you know, I had this wonders, a dairy farmer's daughter sort of thing going on. And you know, and I think that a lot of I see so many people struggle with that in one way, shape or form, and you know that it is a kind of cultural hangover, I believe from our colonial convict days where it's like, well, you know, we're all equal here, don't ever aspire to be above anyone else. And I don't know about you, but growing up, you know, in a country area, you know, someone might have called me a bitch or mean, yeah, that would be insulting, but to be called stuck up or up yourself like that was the biggest, most offensive, Like god forbid you ever act in a way that you would be called stuck up or up yourself. And so you know, I had voice had this sort of like, oh God, the people think I'm getting too big for my boots. You know to write a book. And so I think, I think we've got to just ask ourselves, where is that fear of what people might say? Or what do we even think they might say? Maybe no one would have thought that, but we're thinking, oh, they're

11:28 going to think I'm getting up myself or I'm being too ambitious, and that fear of what people might think. We give it so much power. We give so much power away what other people might think. Maybe they do think it, maybe they tell us, you know, who are you to do that? But we don't even know. A lot of the time we just come up with or I bet you they'll think this, they'll think and then we go, all right, I want to. Do it exactly. We're oftentimes it's just a projection, but then we let it rule us. Yeah. Yeah, And to me, I kind of look at it in terms of often think of it in terms of power. You know, I define power as our ability to affect change. And when we think of powerful people, we often think of people in positions of power, prime minister, you know, ceo, et cetera. And yet we've all got power.

12:15 We've all got power in our own lives to change things, you know, starting with our own attitudes, starting with what time we're going to get out of bed in the morning, starting with how we you know, invest our time, and how we speak the words we say everything, and so you know, the biggest thing that takes away our power is believing we don't have any And one of the other ways we give away our power is we give more power to what other people think than what we think. And yet all of us actually have power. We all have the ability to affect change. And it begins with say, choosing our attitude, or choosing how we spend our time, or choosing what time we get out of bed in the morning, choosing how we describe other people or our situation. You know, all of that. We have that power, and so often we give away power to what other people think.

13:03 We actually treat, what their their opinion or what we think their opinion might be. We give that more power to direct our decisions, to decide, you know, our course of action, whether we'll speak up, whether we'll go after something, you know, what we'll do and who will actually become because we're so focused on you know, that approval and that pleasing and that fear of disapproval. And while we are all wired to as social creatures. We all want to belong, we like to be liked, we want to feel we're part of something by the same token, you know, we really disempower ourselves when we let what other people think matter more than what we think or what we really want for ourselves.

13:45 And Maggie, I'm curious to know, in your work and with all the people that you've worked with, you know, in organizations and individually and you know, internationally, is it something that affects men and women equally or do you think that this is a lot more of a female problem. Yeah, Look, I think we all feel fear. No one's immune to fear, men and women. I absolutely think it manifests in different ways, and so the things that we're afraid of are different. You know, for men, if you think about some of the triggers of fear can be you know, shame or sense of vulnerability around something. So for men it's like, you know, they're afraid of appearing week or afraid of appearing vulnerable. For women, it's like, we really like to be liked and we're afraid to be disliked or you know, be seen as unlovable, and so unattractive and so so how it shows up is different, and you know, and that so much of that is our social conditioning, but also just how we're wired as well, and certainly for women, you know, we are wired for connection and social harmony. We're great at building relationships, you know, maintaining you know that you're social harmony in a group, and so we can be really low to say things that might disrupt that harmony. And so women I've found can be farm more reticent to have sometimes you know what I'd say, a candid conversation, a critical conversation, or

15:15 to ask for something they really want, because you know, I don't want someone thinking I'm being too needy or difficult, and so so I'd absolutely think it can show up differently in terms of you know, our relationship with with being acting in a powerful way, acting in a way that you know, we we we set we're in the driver's seat of our own lives. Certainly, I do quite a lot, you know, working with women. I have. I've started running Live Brave women's weekends about five years ago in Australia. And one thing, you know that the reason I started doing them for women, I was running I've run programs for men and women all the time, but the weekends was because I see so many women I meet them all the time who doubt themselves too much and sell themselves too short and back themselves too little, and you know, smart women, capable women, and you know, then some of them are actually pretty successful, you know, but there's still that that imposter syndrome, like, yes, people are going to realize, you know, I don't know as much as they think, you know, and I just somehow landed this role and when are they going to cotton on?

16:20 And you know, I'm afraid to put myself out there because I think I don't have enough experience or I'm not smart enough, or I'm not you know, I'm not something enough. And so I do see that as a really that phenomena that is really very prevalent in women. And actually, frankly, I found it even more prevalent in Australian women than even in women in the US or in other part. Really yep, yeah, I do, and I think that's I do think we have a really gendered culture in Australia and it is that it is. I think there is there is absolutely a leveling going on right now, you know, I mean the me Too wasn't just an American things. That phenomena of women sort of finding their voice and stepping into their power and you know, saying hey, you know, we need to level this playing field.

17:03 But I think that takes time. That doesn't happen with you know, just one one true to hashtag trending. You know so, And I think that's it's an individual and it's a collective thing, and we need more role models. I think that's why it's so important to have strong female role models. So true. And I want to pick up on what you said about the having brave conversations because that's something that I see as well. I think women particularly are very fearful of speaking up if they worried about confrontation, worried they're going to upset somebody. And I noticed in your your I think it's your most recent book, Train the Brave, there's you. You have the quote for the sake of what are you willing to speak up? And I love that because do you want to talk about what that means?

17:50 Yeah? Yeah, well if you think about it, I mean, we are wired as a species as part of our survival, we're wired for safety. We're wired to stick with security, to stick with familiarity, to stick with comfort, not to risk it. You know, we are not we I mean, we can be trailblazers. But there has to be a compelling reason to leave our comfort zone, to risk our security, to risk our reputation, to risk disapproval or rejection. And so we have to be able to answer the question for the sake of what am I willing to take that risk, for the sake of what am I willing to put myself out there, for the sake of what am I willing to sit down with this person and have this conversation that could potentially, you know, go really pair shaped. They might explode, they might get upset, they you know, they might reject me. I mean all sorts of things. You know, I might offend them. So we have to be really clear, what's your answer to the question for the sake of what are you willing to have that brave, slash difficult conversation or for the sake of what are you willing to you know, make that change to that part of your life life? And so yeah, and you know, one of the things I do when I you know, working with people and that they need to have conversations. And if you know my work with organizations around the around over the years is the number one thing that undermines performance in any team or organization is the conversations that need to occur aren't occurring, or they're not occurring quickly enough, or they're not occurring in

19:23 a way that builds trust and grows collaboration. And so you know, the first thing I always say, set your highest intention? What is your highest intention for this conversation? Why is it that you need to do the very thing that you'd really rather not do? And you know, I'm married how long, twenty six, twenty six years this October? I know, I know I got married at three and and I know for me, early on in our relationship within my husband Andrew, I actually was I'd had I thought I sort of dealt with this bleimia, and then it kind of reared up again. We live, we moved to Puppy in New Guinea. We' being married about a year, and I remember just feeling so so much shame around it and so much embarrassment around it, and I didn't want to share it. I just I mean, I just you know, his relationship with food is eat when you're hungry and done it when you're not. And you know why we you know, like I mean, because obviously any eating disorder is not a logical thing to do, and so and so I just was like, oh, but I also thought, look, you know, we want to have a really authentic and real conversation. We've sort of said, let's we always want to be honest with each other. And here I am with this shameful thing I'm struggling with and I need I kind of knew I needed to share it, but oh I felt sick at the thought of it, and I and I did and because he

20:54 loved me, he was as compassionate as he could be an empathetic and how can I support you, et cetera. But I feel that sort of de lay this groundwork, this foundation for us in our marriage with when there's something that's going on for us and maybe the other person's pissed us off, you know, because that's happened too many times. It's like, you know, I need to have this conversation even though it's hard for me to have it, and I need to have it in a way that isn't making you wrong, and isn't you know, treating you with a lack of disrespect, but you know, is really just making sure it's very open and you know what's going on for me, and and you know that's that's massively uncomfortable at times, you know, sometimes saying I'm sorry I was wrong. You apologizing to someone and saying, you know, I'm sorry I was mean, or I was selfish, or that was really unkind of me or you know, in considerate of me. You know, sometimes that is a difficult thing to do. But we need to clean it up on our part because obviously, in any relationship, you know, we're half of the quality of it.

21:56 And you know, I was just thinking as you were talking, Maggie, that's the really I mean, it makes so much sense. It's the basis of a quality relationship to be able to have those difficult conversations and to be able to be honest about how you're feeling. But it really does take two people, doesn't it, Because it has it requires one person to be brave enough to bring up the issue, whatever the issue might be, but it takes another person to be willing enough to hear it non defensively and you know, to take it on board and to be open because so often it's tricky to bring something up if people are very stark and defensive and will shut you down or turn it around and blame you. So it's of course it takes a mature relationship or a mature organizational culture or whatever it might be.

22:36 It doesn't absolutely I mean in a personal relationship or a one on one relationship, you absolutely have to know that that person you know. I always say, you know, do I mean this? Can I defend it? And will it serve? And if you think that the person you're going to talk to will not be able to hear it and they're going to just straight away get to defensiveness, it shows a lack of trust, then you know it doesn't. So I'm certainly not saying, oh, every time you think something you should share it. You know, you should always say exactly what you think to people and tell them exactly what you think, because that sometimes is not a fruitful exercise. But if you're in a certainly like in a marriage or a partnership, you know, if there's a lack of trust that this person, I trust, this person has my best interests at heart, and we go about things in a way that isn't vilifying them, because that's often what we can do. It's like it's all your bloody fault. If it wasn't for you, I wouldn't have done this, or I wouldn't be thinking this. And we have to really take one hundred percent ownership for what's going on for us and not put that on others, because as soon as you make someone else wrong, they're going to straight away get defensive and then it all goes downhill. But in an organizational setting, which is where I guess I do a lot of my work today.

23:44 You know, it's that concept of psychological safety of do I feel safe to share what I got wrong, or to share a mistake, to share that I disagree with you, to share a grievance, to share that actually what you said yesterday hurt my feelings or is frustrating me. And when that psychological safety is high, I mean, research shows the highest performing teams have the highest levels of psychological safety that we know we can take those into personal risks, and so you know that's where everybody's part of that. Everyone contributes to that, but anyone who's in the leadership role, they really set the time. I hope you're enjoying season four of the show, and hey, I would love for you to check out my brand new YouTube channel where I'm sharing even more tips on how you can feel less crappy and more happy.

24:32 It's YouTube dot. Com forward slash cast Done, So come over check it out. I'd love for you to subscribe, And if you haven't already taken my free seven day happiness challenge, you can sign up for that at castdone dot com, Forward slash Happiness. With the work that you do in organizations, Margie, so how do you go about creating that kind of a culture. Where do you begin if that's not present in an organization? Yeah, look, it's a complex problem and it requires a complex, multi lever solution. Certainly there has to be a commitment from the top. There absolutely has to be that from the most senior leadership because people play safe when they feel unsafe to do otherwise. And so you know, you can read the book and go, oh, I love this idea, and then you know, if you know that me being honest and having an open conversation with my boss or someone else is going to come back and bite me on the bum, then you're not going to do it, You're going to go I'm not going to do that for the sake of what. There's no good answer to that, for the sake of nothing, you know, unless it's like you're willing to risk your job. And so at the top level, it has to be communicated that that's a value that we really want to build. What I call actually in my work when I run programs and speak, is what I call a culture of courage. How do you create a culture in which people are in boldened to take risks, to get outside their comfort zone, to try new ways of doing things, to push back and challenge old ways of doing things and old paradigms, and

26:02 so one it's going to come from the top. There needs to be support where I often see it comes unglued and is in the middle ranks. So those at the top say, yes, we want to create this culture. We want to be able to normalize want to say normal loyal, normalize loyal dissension. We want to normalize it so that people feel okay to challenge, to speak up and challenge their boss, et cetera, et cetera. But those in the middle ranks have to have that sense of safety themselves and so often they can be very driven by fear of protecting their spot and they're competing with the others, so they don't want to they don't want anything that might potentially make them look bad or feel bad. And so so you have to really be careful and making sure people are rewarded for building that culture within their teams, and that you're measuring that that those people who are really building empowering cultures where people do feel that they have the delegate to make decisions and that they can speak up and challenge. And so, you know, there's lots of ways that you can measure that in organizational settings, but you know, on an individual, let level, i'd say to a leader, encourage people when they speak up and try things. Don't say that was a stupid idea.

27:14 Why did you say that. Encourage them to take on challenges that you know where there's a risk they might fall short. I mean, that doesn't mean you're going to risk the risk the company budget on it. But yeah, let's give this a go. Set learning goals really tap into the collective value from failures. How can we make sure every day every week when we get together and go, hey, what is it we learned this week from what we tried that could have been done better. You know, if people aren't failing, then they're certainly not going to be optimizing the learning and the growth and the innovation. And certainly I think it's really important to make sure that people know you've got their back. You know, if you try this and it doesn't land perfectly, I've got your back.

27:59 You know, we're in this together where we're trying to come up with the best outcomes, and the best outcomes are going to come from all of us contributing our ideas, sharing our learning along the way. It's just it's such a nice reframing of the whole failure thing, isn't it, Because the fear of failure gets in so many people's way, I mean, personally, professionally, in every way, and so to be able to reframe that even in your own mind about you know, what have I learned or how is this a stepping stone? Or it's just you know, it can make all the difference. Yeah. And I mean, as you know the work of Carol Dweck with the growth versus fixed mindset, you know, it's nice to say I have a growth mindset. Yeah, I go have a growth mindset. But to have a growth mindset, you have to embrace the value of failure.

28:43 You have to say I am not just willing to risk it. I'm well and truly embracing failure as part and parcel of what it takes for success. And so, you know, the higher the tolerance for failure, I say, you know micro experiments, you know, you know, bank the family far on something. But how can you have a have a have an environment where people are like, let's try this out. Let's see if that works. And if it doesn't, we go, Okay, well that didn't work. But what we what do we learn from that that we can take and tweak and and make better. Another idea, and so I think that idea of of of really embracing failure and giving yourself permission to fail. And I think that includes, you know, that idea of perfectionism as well, so that I think sometimes women struggle with more than men.

29:30 Give yourself permission not to do things perfectly, give yourself permission not to you know, write the masterpiece, to not to have the most brilliant looking power point deck in the history of PowerPoint decks, or to do the most you know, kick ass presentation, in the in the in the world of you know, sales pitches. You know, give yourself permission to to not know everything, do it brilliantly first time every time, and I hope for me. You know, I don't know if it's part of growing up on a farm or one of seven kids, having four kids myself when I sort of started down this second career path. But I know I would never any of the worthwhile things I've done if I had waited until I knew exactly what I was doing. You know, all of the progress I've made has been made by sort of just going all right, let's give this a go, and tweaking and pivoting as we go along. You know, you've got giving myself permission to go. Well, I feel like I'm winging it a bit here. I'm not exactly sure, but oh god, you know, and I don't want to look back and go what if I tried? And I think that's where that fear you can flip fear, flip it on its head instead of going, God, what will happen if I try? How will I feel? I'll feel terrible.

30:47 I know I'm going to feel like a loser. Ask yourself, you know, how will you feel if you don't try? How will you feel if you don't do it? And don't just think a week from now, think a year from now, think at the end of your life, and ask yourself, you know, what is it that you need to be afraid of if you don't do it? Because so often, you know, we let our fear of what might happen if we do do it, but we don't give due consideration to, well, what do I need to be afraid of if I don't do it? And part of that is because our wiring is we are actually our brains are twice as sensitive to potential losses as they are of potential gains. So whenever we're thinking of like do I speak up, do I try this, do I make this change, take this chance, we are actually twice as sensitive to what could go wrong and how we could fail on what could go right and how we might succeed. And so we literally terrorize ourselves and scare ourselves and paralyze ourselves, and we go, oh, I'll just stick with I'll just stick with what I'm doing now, it's not so bad, and we come up with all sorts of justifications Oh, look, you know, at least I've got a job, well, at least he doesn't beat me, or at least you know, I'm up with all of these reasons why we should just stick with where we are, when in fact, the bigger risk we're taking is not taking the risk.

32:08 So you're saying, really, if we shift the focus to being more afraid about how we might feel in five years time if we don't try, that can kind of give us the impetus to have a go. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean if you think about it, you know, as we're more we're motivated to seek pleasure and avoid pain, but we're more motivated to move away from pain. So sometimes you've really got to actually, I mean what I do when I run, you know, whether it's my women's weekends or it's my programs, I try and get a bit emotional leverage. How bad and lousy are you going to feel if you stick with where you are now? I mean, how miserable will you feel? And you know you want people to go, Oh, I'll feel really bad if I don't change this. So if I don't do this, I'm going to really regret that. You know, I'm like, I want people to feel really bad because that's where you get that emotional leverage. And you know, there's some so much research out there that shows at the end of our lives people regret way more the risks that they did not take. Those chances they did not take.

33:13 You know, they didn't move to the other city for the job because oh, you know it was they were afraid it wouldn't work out, or they didn't say yes to you know, the adventure, or they didn't you know, say yes to that person who they thought was wonderful because oh they were afraid of the commitment. Whatever, even when it doesn't work out, because when things don't work out, we still learn, right, we've still learned. We've had we've had an incredible experience, we learned something where we've grown. We're a wiser person now where you know, a more whole person. We're more compassionate, we've learned all sorts of things. We've built connections, we've grown, we've gained knowledge. But when we don't try it, we actually miss out. We deprive ourselves of all of that potential learning and growth. And so you know, people who never take a risk are not very big people. They tend to live way smaller lives than they have it within them to live. And to me, that's a that's a real that's a real tragedy.

34:10 It is. And what you said earlier is something that's really something that I've really taken on board too, which is that whole idea of start before you're ready. And because I spend a long time too, I used to hold myself back and polish things up and have to get another do another course, or study something else before I was ready to do whatever. And when you can really embrace that, just start, just start before you're ready, and then learn as you go, or learn the lessons or whatever, or at the very least you realize that it's actually actually what you know is enough. Yeah, Because and I think if you don't. Take that risk, and I say this to anybody listening, because I know there's lots of people who will be stuck in this spot. You never give yourself the opportunity to prove to yourself that you are enough, that you know enough, you know, you just stay stuck, continuing, continuing to buy into that story that you're still not.

35:02 I couldn't. I couldn't agree more. It's absolutely that's sort of been something that's really driven me, or it's really it's given me the freedom to try to just go, well, you know what if I tried And you know, we talk about that, that concept of imposter syndrome as little voice going oh, I'm afraid. You know, that's just our fear. It's our fear that we're not enough. And only when we do the very things that that fear wants us not to do, do we realize that that fear is the impostor, that's the impostor. It's the one that's sitting there going oh no, you're not good enough, you're not smart enough, you're not experienced enough. And we never get to realize heck, yeah I was and I am and I could and I did, and I know for me that has happened so many times. It's by doing the thing that frankly bloody terrified to do. I'm really there isn't.

35:51 Every time I get on stage, it's all the voice in my head going, I don't they're going to realize you don't know as much as you think. You know, they think you're really good of me, You're really not. And I'm like, I kind of thank you shut up, and then you know, let me just breathe in faith, breathe out fear, Off I go. And it really is about learning to manage that little voice and to not let it call the shots. And I think far too often we can let that voice of self doubt call the shots, and when it calls the shots, we can never ever discover how, how, how how how little reason we ever had to believe it. And so I often say, actually, my my, my current book that I'm working on, which will come out next year in March, you know, is about learning to doubt those doubts, Like how do you learn to doubt those doubts? And to your point, to start before you're ready, and to trust yourself You've got this, it's you can do it, and it's it's that's that's why it takes courage, that's about that's what living bravely is about.

36:54 So I think that the real take home out of all of that conversation, Margie, is that we need to not wait to not feel fear. I think so many people say, when I am no longer afraid, when I'm no longer anxious, or when I'm no longer whatever, then I'll be able to do that thing. And we've got to just learn that we have to take some fear along for the ride, not expected to ever completely go away. Yeah, I absolutely agree with you that do not wait until you feel confident. I can't if I had a dollar for every time someone said, oh, I'm just not confident enough at the moment, or I'm I'm just not ready enough, or I'm just not sure of myself, I'm just not sure it's the right thing, And I'm like, oh, honestly, you could be eighty nine years old just waiting to be confident enough to do that thing, and so absolutely right, do not wait until you are confident enough or you're sure enough. Just make that call, take put yourself out there.

37:51 And you know there's a physical aspect to it too. You know, take a big, deep breath, you know, close your eyes, put your hand on your heart, connect with what it is as you most want, take a few those big breasts right into your botom of the bottom of your belly. You know, I just really breathe in that that belief, that courage, that faith, and breathe out the fear, the doubt, the anxiety, and I think, you know, putting ourselves in the space, you know, that we all kind of that power post. But really, how we hold ourselves physically can shift our psychology. And so really stand as you stand as the brave hearted person that you want to be, as the strong person. I've got this, I'm going to I'm going to figure this out. I'm going to nail it. Whatever happens, I can handle it.

38:36 You know, that can actually help us then step into action in that moment that we need to step into action or have that or to have that conversation we might need to have with someone as well. Yeah, I love that. I feel inspired good, Muggie, Maggie speaking of you know that that conversation. So we talked a lot about you know, organizational stuff, and I'm just conscious of anybody listening who's thinking, oh, yeah, there is that tricky conversation I need to have with my partner or my best friend who upset me, or that person who you know, like in a personal social situation, family member, If anybody's thinking, oh, like, how do I do that? What do I do or how do I take that first step in that on a personal level?

39:18 Any advice? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I've got a course on my website you can get. But well, I we'll point people to that. You know, I know absolutely I one. As I said earlier, you know, get really clear about the intention that you're set you're trying to serve here, because sometimes when we're upset, our brains automatically go to make ourselves right and others roll. And so if you're entering into a conversation and you're pessed with someone and I'm going to let you know that you freaking messed up, it's your fault, and you're in the space of blame or vindictiveness, then you know, I'll I guarantee you right now it's not going to go well. So we have to really keep our own emotions in check and be really clear about the highest intention we're trying to serve. We need to challenge whatever our own story is. And we all have stories, you know, it's like and a lot of stories can be us as a victim you did this to me, or we cast someone else as the villain. You know, you're a complete and utter, you know, whatever it is. And so we've got to really check what's going on for me, what am I bringing into this conversation. Because our stories that we're living in about someone else and what they did wrong, what they failed to do, whatever they actually can be these massive roadblocks for a fruitful conversation. And so going into the conversation with that intention of I really trying to I want to resolve this issue, or I want to just let this person know this is how I'm feeling because I value this relationship and this

40:52 thing that happened is kind of getting in the way of me feeling like I could move forward and whatever it is, Just and go into that conversation from a very from a very authentic place, be willing to be vulnerable, to share what's going on for you, but not in a way that makes them wrong, because yeah, I just think that's where things can go downhill. That's we're also just asking, you know, what's going on for you. You know, I feel like there's been a bit of a tension here and I don't want that. I don't want that for us. I don't want for me, I don't want for you. I don't want it for us. You know, I'd love to know, you know, how are you feeling, And maybe maybe they'll share, and maybe they won't, but just be careful you don't kind of put up your defensiveness, and because if really you end up in a battle and someone if someone's going to win coming out of this and someone else is going to lose, in which case the relationship loses. It's not about winners and losers here.

41:43 It's about how do we find a path forward that has us both feeling respected and taken care of and this and working through whatever issue it is in a way that we both neither of us feel like we've had to give all the ground and you know, owning your part. I think sometimes sometimes, you know, I'll say to people, own your part, you know, where do you need to go? You know, I realize I should have said something, you know, I should have spoken up earlier. I realized that, you know, I know I said this and did this, and that probably was hard for you, you know. And I'm sorry for how I've contributed to this situation. But I'd really like to find a way forward. And I think when we're coming from that place of genuine love, you know, and versus fear or anger, then we're going to have a way better outcome. And it's my experience that what comes from that heart space lands on the heart space, and people they'll lower their defensiveness if they don't think you're out there to put them in the in the in the corner where they're wrong.

42:44 And sometimes people might assume that you are. If you've often been on attack, you've set up that pattern and that expectation, and just recognize you have to work to build trust so that they're not going to come, you know, respond to you from a place of defensiveness. That's such great advice. I love what you said then about just because we come to these situations often we are so convinced of our position and we know exactly how we've been slighted or you know, disrespected or whatever it has been. But to actually say, well, how do you feel about this situation? Because guarantee the other person will have their take on it and their spin on it, which we've probably not even considered, so immediately there's space there to have a much more open dialogue.

43:27 Yeah, and that's where listening is really important, because they might say well actually, and then they'll have, you know, maybe they're going to make you a villain. Don't respond to anger with anger because that just makes it worse. Just just sit there and acknowledge it. I can see you're really angry. I can see that's you know, you clearly feel I've done the wrong thing. It doesn't mean you're agreeing with them, but you can acknowledge that that's what's gone on for them. Maybe who knows, maybe you're going to open up Mountvesuvius. But I think that's where how you respond matters profoundly in terms of just keeping building trust, created that safety, that psychological safety in your relationship space. And I'm making sure other people feel heard.

44:08 So many people are hungry to feel heard, and you know, just taking time to go. I just want to know how this has been for you. I want to know your perspective on this. You may not agree with their perspective, you may think they're completely and utterly wrong, but just listen, not with the intention to fight back. I have to think we say we're listening and we're really reloading. We're just waiting for you to pause long enough to go, No, you're wrong on that, that was your fault, that wasn't me. But actually just listen. Just let them feel really heard, acknowledge it, Acknowledge their pain, acknowledge their fear, acknowledge their hurt. Yeah, I get that, you know, I hadn't thought of it that way. I get that must have been hard for you.

44:48 And if you are willing to come from that place of being very generous and compassionate and empathetic toward them, you know it can just create this massive clearing to go. Okay, you know, Truce, you know, neither of us here imperfect, neither of us here are completely innocent. And how this unfolded? How can we find a way forward? Maggie, thank you so much for taking the time. It's been a pleasure. It has been a pleasure for me too. Thanks for asking me on. You can find more about Margie on her website margieworld dot com or follow her on social media, where she's always sharing inspiring content to help you step out of your comfort zone and into your best, bravest life. My new book, Crappy to Happy, Love What You Do is out in all good bookstores, so if you want to find more happy in work, go and check it out.

45:43 On the next episode, I'm talking to Tom Cronan about how he used meditation to recover from debilitating stress and anxiety, and how he now believes that meditation has the. Power to change the world. As the founder of the Stillness Project. He has huge, ambitious goals and an inspire sharing message to share. Crappy to Happy is presented by Cass Dunn, produced by Davis Lensky, Audio production by Darcy Thompson. Listener