Nov. 1, 2020

Living shamelessly with Mich and Zara from Shameless

Living shamelessly with Mich and Zara from Shameless
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Living shamelessly with Mich and Zara from Shameless
Living shamelessly with Mich and Zara from Shameless
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Season 6 Women's Health And Wellbeing Self-Confidence Creativity & Self-Expression

Cass Dunn talks to Michelle Andrews and Zara McDonald, co-hosts of the Shameless podcast about navigating the chaos and magic of being in your 20s. They discuss how they've handled their extraordinary success (and accompanying criticism), the smart conversations that we can have about 'dumb stuff', and the importance of backing yourself to achieve your goals.You can buy Zara and Michelle's book The Space Between here: https://tinyurl.com/sz2earhy
www.shamelessthepodcast.com
Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypodwww.tiktok.com/crappytohappypod
Join the free 7-day Happiness Challenge:www.cassdunn.com/happiness

Connect with Cass:

www.cassdunn.com
www.instagram.com/cassdunn_xo

Contact Crappy to Happy:

Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
www.crappytohappypod.com
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypod
www.tiktok.com/@crappytohappypod


Are you a coach, therapist, service provider or solopreneur struggling with self-doubt and imposter syndrome? I'd love to talk to you! (for market research purposes only!)

Book a call with me to share your experience.

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Transcript
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A listener production.

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Hey, you're listening to Crappy to Happy. I'm your host,

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cast done. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist, a mindfulness

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meditation teacher.

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And author of the Crappy to Happy books.

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In this series, we look at all of the things

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that might be making you feel crappy and give you

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the tools and.

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Techniques to help you to overcome them.

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In each episode, I chat with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people

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who are experts in their field, and my hope is

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that you take something away from these conversations that helps

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you feel a little bit less crappy and more happy. Today,

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I'm speaking to Michelle Andrews and Zara McDonald, two young

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women most well known for their incredibly successful podcast Shameless.

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Shameless is the show for smart people who love dumb stuff,

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and Mission and Zara not only bring very thoughtful, insightful

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conversations about all things pop culture, but they have interviewed

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some amazing guests, including the likes of Julia Gillard, Jamila

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Jamil and many more. They've also just released their first

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book together, called The Space Between, and I couldn't have

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been more thrilled to have the chance to speak to

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these two incredible young women about their success, the challenges

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it has brought them, and how they've overcome those challenges

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together so that they can keep on doing the important

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work that they are doing in the world without further ado.

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His mish and Zara, Zara.

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And Michelle, best known for the Shameless podcast, thank you

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so much for being with me this morning.

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I'm crapy to happy.

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Thank you for having us.

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We are so excited to be here.

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I'm so excited to talk to you. I'm a huge fan.

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I am probably not in your target demographic, but I

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just wanted to say that I really really enjoy the show.

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I love the interviews, I love the content, and you

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are obviously smashing it with the success of that show.

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So I suspect that we probably have some listeners who

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overlap and as are probably from their twenties all the

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way through to fifty sixties and beyond. And I suspect

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that you have a fairly broad age range of women

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mostly who listen to you as well.

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Yeah, for sure. I mean it's predominantly women in their twenties,

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but we have realized in twenty twenty that we're branching

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out to more men and to more people are guests

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who are parents or even grandparents like I love to comment.

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We received on one of our posts yesterday from a

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father of four adult women, and he DMed us on

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Instagram to be like, hey, guys, I've found the show

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and I think listening to you both has helped me

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understand my daughters better. So I love getting messages like

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that to think that we're reaching different people in different

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pockets of the world.

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Absolutely, And in fact, my daughter is fourteen and I

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actually play your show like when we're driving in the car,

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hoping that she might just be tuning in and listening

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to you know, she's on she's snap snap streaking whatever

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it is that they do on their foes, But I'm

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hoping that she's listening because the message that you share.

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So people who aren't listeners of Shameless, would you like

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to just give them a little bit of an insight

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into what the show is and how it got started.

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Yeah, for sure.

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I mean we've kind of been The tagline of the

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show is it's the show for smart people who like

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dumb stuff, because we wanted to have conversations about celebrity

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and pop culture and stuff that I think the world

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has traditionally told women are stupid and silly, but in

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a way that's not, you know that the way that

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doesn't take them literally all the time, and the way

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that actually in a way that kind of delves deeper

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into why we're interested in the things that we're interested in,

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because they were the conversations we were having back and

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forth with miss and I, particularly about things like The Bachelor.

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I mean, you're talking about the Bachelor, but you're not

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taking it at surface level and you're not taking it seriously,

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and there are really smart conversations to be had about

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this stuff. So we decided to jump in a studio

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and start sort of creating the show. Originally we pitched

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it to networks, no one really wanted to pick it up,

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so because that forced our hand, we just sort of

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launched it independently, having no idea what.

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We were doing.

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We had never, you know, really spoken into a microphone

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much at all.

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We didn't know how to edit, we didn't.

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Know anything about podcasting, but we taught ourselves everything, and

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it has been one of the biggest blessings of everything,

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being forced to actually teach yourself everything. Because we've been

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able to do this ourselves for the last two and

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a half years, and now if you had have asked

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me like I wouldn't want to be signed to anyone.

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I'm so glad that we get to do this thing

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ourselves because it means we also can kind of say

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what we want.

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Yeah, and I think as well, the surprising thing we

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began shameless to talk about things like The Bachelor, but

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I think Zara and I've realized over the last few

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months that the concept of rejecting shame has kind of

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infiltrated every nook and cranny of the podcast, So now

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it's about everything to do with life as a young woman,

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and I think that's really important to us to kind

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of debunk shame and push back on shame because I

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think it's something that a lot of women in general

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struggle with in all facets of their life.

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Absolutely so glad you brought that up.

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And I do want to get to your book obviously

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that's just come out, because you do talk about some

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really deeply personal things in the book and really free

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yourselves of all of that stigma and shame around so

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many personal things.

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I want to get to the book, but I want

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to stick with the podcast for.

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Now, so you both started working for Mamma Mia as

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young journalists. You pitched the idea and it was accepted right,

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They liked it. They liked the idea, and then at

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the last minute said, no, we've changed our minds.

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Is that how that went down?

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Yeah, So you're absolutely right when I said before that

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we pitched it to networks. The first place that we

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pitched it was to our workplace, and they did like

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the idea. They thought it was something that could work.

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But when we got closer to launch, I think it

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was a week or two out, we were kind of

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told that it wasn't going to be a priority for

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the business moving forward, that they thought the idea was okay,

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but if they did eventually pick the idea up, they

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couldn't guarantee that miss and I were going to be

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hosts of it.

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And I think Michelle and I we knew.

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That this was an idea that was good, to be honest,

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and we knew it was good because it was something

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that we wanted to listen to ourselves and couldn't find anywhere.

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And we said to ourselves, if we don't launch this

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thing now ourselves, somebody else will just fill the gap.

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Like it's such an obvious gap for us that we're

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not going to be the only ones that think of

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this because it's so obvious, so we have to just

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do it ourselves.

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And for anybody not familiar with the podcast, when you

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say you talk about things like The Bachelor, you talk

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about things like the Bachelor and entertainment, you know, gossip,

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celebrity gossip, but through the lens of very I would

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say a feminist perspective from a very progressive, intelligent, critical

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way of thinking. Right, you actually bring intelligent conversation. Ah,

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this is why I love it so much. I wish

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more people would listen.

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Thank you.

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Not that you need a lot more listeners, you have

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clearly millions.

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But I remember when I first came across your show

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when I was about twenty, I guess, and I had

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this boyfriend and his father a bit of an arrogant prick,

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to be honest, and he used to but he loved

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me because I was at university and I was studying,

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and he used to ask me my opinion about all

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of these things.

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And then I remember one day telling him, he said,

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what do you do? I don't even remember how it came.

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Up, but he stumbled upon the fact that I was

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obsessed with The Bold.

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And the Beautiful, and I used to watch The Bold

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and the Beautiful at four o'clock every after minute. I

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was working three part time jobs at the time, I

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was studying, but I would make sure I was at

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home at four o'clock to watch Bold and the Beautiful Beautiful,

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and he looked at me with contempt.

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You know. It was this I thought you were a

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smart girl, and that was the disdain. And I remember saying,

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these things aren't mutually exclusive. I can be intelligent and

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all of those things and still kind of like at

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the time, it was Bold and the Beautiful. Obviously, now

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we have this whole reality TV and all of these

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other things going on. But that's what I love about

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your show. I think a lot of people are made

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to feel kind of stupid for being interested in things

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like that, but like you say, you can watch them

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through this critical lens and bring an intelligent conversation to

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the table.

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Yeah, well, that's the thing. I think. One example that

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stands out to me that really epitomizes why we created

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Shameless is actually that of professional wrestling. Like, we know

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that millions of people predominantly men around the world sit

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in front of their television screens or pay hefty prices

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for tickets to go to a scripted, drama filled wrestling match.

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No one blinks, no one bats an eye at the

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fact that pro wrestling is a totally legitimate hobby for

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men to have, even though we know it's fake, we

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know it's scripted, we know it's kind of ridiculous when

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you lay it out like that. And yet women being

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interested in potentially scripted reality programs or being interested in

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salacious celebrity gossip, they're discounted as I don't know, ridiculous

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and frivolous and silly. And I just think society seems

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to give green ticks to every hobby that a man

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can have. But if women have hobbies that aren't high

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brow and societally like, I don't know, acceptable and intelligent,

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where kind of discredited as just being ridiculous and little girls.

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So for Zara and I where two people who also

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love our sport, myself probably a little bit more than

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Zara on some days. But there is such a disconnect

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there that people are happy to watch sport and happy

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to spend hours pouring over analysis and commentary on sport,

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but commentary on any other facet of entertainment isn't okay suddenly.

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So yeah, it was important for us to have intelligent

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conversations about pop culture because, to be honest, the conversations

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we have on the podcast are very indicative of the

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kind of conversations we have in our group chats with

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our best friends and our sisters.

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So, going back to the Muma Mia, they basically pulled

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it at the last minute, and then you had a

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decision to make about what to do going forward. So

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ultimately you decided to go ahead with the podcast on

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your own.

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And then how soon after that.

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Did you actually resign from your jobs to pursue the podcast.

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Can you just talk a little bit about that.

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Yeah, for sure.

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So the conversation we had with each other once the

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podcast was rejected was a pretty simple one, Like I

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said to you, we have to create this thing, and

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we have to do it pretty soon. So after that,

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we probably launched the podcast about five weeks later.

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It was pretty rough.

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At the time in terms of how it was structured

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and how we were as hosts. But I mean, it's

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kind of nice having that backlog there for people to

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listen to. It's kind of proof that it's the best

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thing you can do is get started right.

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And I think that.

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Once we'd started the podcast, we both had conversations with

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each other kind we only within a couple of weeks

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saying this probably isn't a long term thing, being able

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to work at Mama Mea and produce a podcast that

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is directly targeting the same women they do, like we've

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accidentally created a competitor, not through our own fault, but

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they and they were completely on board with us making

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the podcast ourselves outside of work hours, like they had

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given us written approval to do that.

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So I started applying for jobs and started.

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Having think about, you know, what the future was going

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to hold if we were going to push this thing.

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And then about ten weeks into the podcast, it kind

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of did come to a bit of a head where

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we were like, I think we need to make the

245
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jump here, Like it's getting a bit hard, a bit

246
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untenable to do both. So I quit. Michelle quit. I

247
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think it was the day later. It was probably fifteen

248
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hours and twenty.

249
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Four hours of each other. We both quit, and it.

250
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Was very fair.

251
00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:37.519
Yeah, and the podcast wasn't big when we quit. It

252
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wasn't big at all. I think it genuinely probably only

253
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had one thousand or two thousand listeners at the time

254
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per episode. But I think it's the potential that we

255
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saw in it, that if we were able to give

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it the time and the space and the energy that

257
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we thought it deserved, that this could be something that

258
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we could really nurture and grow.

259
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I was going to ask you, was that a tough decision?

260
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I mean, that seems like.

261
00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:01.759
A really big leap to resigned from full time jobs

262
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in order to pursue this potential in this idea. Did

263
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it feel like a really big deal at the time

264
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or did it feel like how challenging was it?

265
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I guess with hindsight, I think it's easy to gloss

266
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over that time and be like, oh, it was pretty

267
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obvious to us. We had a gut feeling, And of

268
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course we're going to feel that way now two years

269
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later because everything worked out great and the podcast is

270
00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:25.679
going great, and we can kind of look back and

271
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be like, best decision ever. But at the time it

272
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was something we really did Mullova a lot. I think

273
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Zara was more ready to go because she had this

274
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other job lined up and she could see herself in

275
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this other workplace, and for me, it was more a

276
00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:42.039
question of I don't want to work at Mama Maya anymore,

277
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but there's no other role that I can see myself in,

278
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so I went freelance. And that was really scary at

279
00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:50.720
the time to kind of go into this freelancing gig,

280
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and people would ask me, like, what's the plan? What

281
00:12:53.039 --> 00:12:56.000
is a freelancer? And I simply did not know. Like

282
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I'd heard other people were freelance writers, and I was like, cool,

283
00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:00.879
I'll give that a crack while try and figure out

284
00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:04.080
what to do next. But I do think it was

285
00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:06.360
easier for Zara and I to make that leap when

286
00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:09.440
we did because we were what twenty three, twenty four Zara,

287
00:13:09.559 --> 00:13:13.399
we didn't have children, we didn't have mortgages, we didn't

288
00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:16.679
have dependence relying on us. So I kind of think

289
00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:19.960
the timing was perfect, and that if we were telling ourselves,

290
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if we don't make this jump now, when will we, logically,

291
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this will be the easiest time in our lives to jump.

292
00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:28.679
And that's not to say it's easy. It's really hard

293
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to kind of back yourself and take a risk. But

294
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if we weren't going to do it, then when was

295
00:13:33.879 --> 00:13:37.320
it going to happen, So I'm just happy we did it,

296
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as scary as it was and as intimidating as it

297
00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:41.519
was to go out on our own and try and

298
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figure it out as we went.

299
00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:45.759
I think the other thing as well, is like I

300
00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:47.679
really think you need to look at those times when

301
00:13:47.720 --> 00:13:51.240
your hand is forced and just seize them. Like a

302
00:13:51.399 --> 00:13:54.679
hand in many ways was forced in a sense that

303
00:13:55.159 --> 00:13:57.919
we didn't really think we could continue working at Mama

304
00:13:57.960 --> 00:14:01.279
Mea and producing Shameless at the same time just wasn't possible.

305
00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:05.440
So it was like pick the job or pick the podcast.

306
00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:08.320
And I just I think when your hand is forced

307
00:14:08.360 --> 00:14:10.159
like that and you've grown something that you really truly

308
00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:11.559
believe in, you've really just.

309
00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:13.000
Got to take that opportunity and run.

310
00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:16.279
Like I know a lot of people, particularly a couple

311
00:14:16.279 --> 00:14:18.200
of people come to mind as well this year, who

312
00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:20.679
have been kind of made redundant from their jobs of

313
00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:22.759
course because of the pandemic, and they've had these side

314
00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:24.679
hustles and these side gigs that they've wanted to kind

315
00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:26.519
of chase for so long and they're still not even

316
00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:27.919
sure if this is the time to do it.

317
00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:29.120
And I do think it's.

318
00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:31.360
Those times where you are forced into a corner that

319
00:14:31.399 --> 00:14:32.720
you have to go, well, I've got to take this

320
00:14:32.759 --> 00:14:35.080
now because I know I never ever will.

321
00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:39.720
Within twelve months it became well. I think you launched

322
00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:44.159
in twenty eighteen. In twenty nineteen, you were voted Australia's

323
00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:47.519
most Popular Podcast or the Australian Podcast Awards. You were

324
00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:51.919
listed in the Apples Best of twenty eighteen and twenty nineteen,

325
00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:53.039
so it was.

326
00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:56.000
Enormously successful very quickly.

327
00:14:56.759 --> 00:14:59.240
Will you this seems like a dumb question, but were

328
00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:01.399
you prepared for it to become You knew you were

329
00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:04.360
onto a good idea, but were you prepared for that

330
00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:05.960
level of success so quickly?

331
00:15:06.200 --> 00:15:06.480
Well?

332
00:15:06.519 --> 00:15:10.159
Probably not. I'm curious to hear what Zara's response. I

333
00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:13.399
don't think so. I think to be to be really honest,

334
00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:17.480
it's quite confronting when you go from being really young,

335
00:15:17.559 --> 00:15:19.720
like we were really young when we launched this, and

336
00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:23.240
the goal with Shameless was never to make it our

337
00:15:23.320 --> 00:15:26.639
full time job. We did Shameless because we genuinely loved

338
00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:30.200
the idea. We have so much fun together, where great friends,

339
00:15:30.200 --> 00:15:32.360
we work really well together. We knew we wanted to

340
00:15:32.360 --> 00:15:35.240
work together in some capacity, but the main goal with

341
00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:37.679
shameless was to add another dot point to our resume.

342
00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:41.679
We were looking at the media industry in Australia, particularly

343
00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:44.080
in Melbourne, and seeing it crumbling around us, Like the

344
00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:47.799
media industry in Melbourne is totally emaciated. So we were thinking, okay,

345
00:15:47.799 --> 00:15:50.720
well we need to be the most skilled young journalists

346
00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:53.200
who can come to a media organization and go, yes,

347
00:15:53.240 --> 00:15:55.519
I can write news articles, but also do you need

348
00:15:55.600 --> 00:15:58.840
an audio editor? I can edit audio, I can produce audio.

349
00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:01.799
I can be the host of a podcast if you

350
00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:03.639
want to launch a podcast, like we just wanted to

351
00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:07.399
have many bows in our I don't even know what

352
00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:09.600
the saying I'm going for. I don't know. I'm yeah,

353
00:16:09.679 --> 00:16:12.720
we wanted to have multiple things in our arsenal I guess,

354
00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:16.080
so to launch this podcast and see it go super

355
00:16:16.120 --> 00:16:18.720
well and see it again an audience, and then our

356
00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:22.440
careers become very public and our lives become very public.

357
00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:25.519
That was a teething process for sure, and I think

358
00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:27.759
it's one that Zara and I are still trying to

359
00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:30.799
wrap our heads around. I think there was definitely a

360
00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:34.399
twelve month month period probably from winning that award at

361
00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:38.039
the Australian Podcast Awards till about May June this year

362
00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:42.360
where we struggled. I really struggled mentally on some days

363
00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:47.600
with the public nature and feeling so exposed in my job.

364
00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:49.480
And I think Zara would say the exact same thing.

365
00:16:49.879 --> 00:16:52.120
Yeah, completely, because I do think it's an interesting question.

366
00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:53.879
I don't think it's a silly question at all, Cass.

367
00:16:53.960 --> 00:16:57.879
I think it is something that we just definitely weren't

368
00:16:57.879 --> 00:17:00.399
prepared for. I think there's a beautiful sense of ivity

369
00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:02.639
that comes from pursuing something you love when you don't

370
00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:05.039
actually think it's going to become your job, and when

371
00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:09.519
it becomes your job. I think in our case in particular,

372
00:17:09.559 --> 00:17:12.599
it forced us to grow up really, really really quickly,

373
00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:14.920
because we were twenty three twenty four and suddenly we're

374
00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:17.759
reaching hundreds of thousands of women a week. At the moment,

375
00:17:17.799 --> 00:17:20.279
we're reaching like I think we're getting about one point

376
00:17:20.359 --> 00:17:22.519
five million streams, and so you're thinking you have to

377
00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:25.799
be really serious about that responsibility, Like you can't just

378
00:17:25.960 --> 00:17:30.200
be fickle and fluffy, Like you have to think really

379
00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:33.319
strategically about how you're using that responsibility and that power.

380
00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:35.960
And it's very overwhelming, Like it's not the worst thing

381
00:17:35.960 --> 00:17:39.240
in the world. It's really lovely too, But you do

382
00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:42.119
have to sort of suddenly come to come to terms

383
00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:44.799
with the fact that people care about I don't know

384
00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:47.079
every word that you say, and you have to be

385
00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:49.279
very careful about every word that you utter.

386
00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:51.480
And that's also not a bad thing that I think.

387
00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:53.359
It's great that people can hold us to account, but

388
00:17:53.400 --> 00:17:57.400
there is a certain level of exposure that is very overwhelming.

389
00:17:57.400 --> 00:17:58.839
And I'm quite a private person.

390
00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:02.440
So just suddenly be the center of all this noise,

391
00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:07.039
very very quickly was a bit terrifying, But you learn

392
00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:09.319
to grow with it and really enjoy it and find

393
00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:10.359
the really good parts to it.

394
00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:12.920
And I was going to ask you about that.

395
00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:17.079
You are so well known now and you call out

396
00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:21.400
like you've been known to call out poor behavior by

397
00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:27.359
influencers and footballers, for example, on other podcasts, how do

398
00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:30.279
you handle the bigger you grow and the bigger your

399
00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:34.480
audience gets, the more responsibility obviously you have, and the

400
00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:37.759
more likely you are to attract criticism and negative feedback.

401
00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:40.039
How do you manage that? How do you.

402
00:18:40.039 --> 00:18:42.480
Continue kind of speaking up and speaking out about these

403
00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:48.000
important things and managed to contain that fear of judgment

404
00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:51.000
or fear of criticism, which is just so common among women,

405
00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:54.039
especially you know, especially young women. That's really common in

406
00:18:54.079 --> 00:18:56.119
my audience, like this fear of criticism, fear of judge.

407
00:18:56.119 --> 00:18:57.960
What will people think? Like, how do you manage that?

408
00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:02.720
I think my psychology just said something really powerful to me.

409
00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:05.200
Earlier this year, when I was really struggling with this

410
00:19:05.319 --> 00:19:08.759
issue in particular, I felt like it was too daunting

411
00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:11.319
to share my opinion with the world anymore, or to

412
00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:15.799
take a stance on things that conflicted with my ethical

413
00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:19.079
moral belief system. And I was saying this to my

414
00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:21.839
psychologist that I don't know if I can keep going, like,

415
00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:24.440
I don't know if I can keep dealing with the

416
00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:28.680
criticism and the backlash and people sometimes assuming the worst

417
00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:34.039
in me. And she basically said, Michelle, the greatest shame

418
00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:36.640
imaginable would be for you to to shut up and

419
00:19:36.680 --> 00:19:42.119
go away, Like instinctively, we want loud women and opinionated

420
00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:46.000
women in a patriarchal world to not share their opinions.

421
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:47.799
We want them to be quiet, we want them to

422
00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:49.559
not take up space, we want them to be small.

423
00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:52.920
And for you and Zara to internalize that message and

424
00:19:53.240 --> 00:19:56.400
throw away the best thing you have ever created would

425
00:19:56.400 --> 00:19:58.839
be the biggest shame. So I think I really try

426
00:19:58.839 --> 00:20:02.400
and remember that, and since that session it has emboldened me.

427
00:20:02.680 --> 00:20:06.880
I think to remind myself of that. It's also a

428
00:20:06.920 --> 00:20:11.440
good arrogance check in I think to tell myself that

429
00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:14.400
not everyone will agree with me, not everyone will like me,

430
00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:17.480
not everyone will love my work, and it is ridiculous

431
00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:19.559
for me to ever assume that that should be the case,

432
00:20:20.200 --> 00:20:22.240
and it's okay for people not to like me. I

433
00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:26.880
think there's definitely a line between valuable criticism and bullying

434
00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:30.200
or trolling. Luckily, I actually don't think we receive much

435
00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:33.200
trolling or bullying at the moment at all, Zara. But

436
00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:37.799
it's good, I think sometimes for your ego to accept that, yes,

437
00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:40.920
you are twenty six, you are a work in progress,

438
00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:43.920
and you need to grow and develop, and you need

439
00:20:43.960 --> 00:20:46.480
to improve in some areas. I think it would be ridiculous,

440
00:20:46.519 --> 00:20:48.680
bizarre and I to ever assume that we are perfect

441
00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:50.880
at our jobs and we have no work to do,

442
00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:52.119
because it's just not the case.

443
00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:54.279
Well, I think it's like that saying, right, you're never

444
00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:56.799
as good or as bad as they say you are.

445
00:20:57.200 --> 00:20:59.640
I think I find that quite comforting often too, because

446
00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:01.519
I don't think it's very helpful to be put on

447
00:21:01.559 --> 00:21:03.319
a pedestal. Nor do I think it's very helpful to

448
00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:04.839
be told that you're the worst person in the world,

449
00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:08.279
because neither of those things are true. I mean, it's funny,

450
00:21:08.279 --> 00:21:10.240
miss and I. I started seeing a psychologist when I

451
00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:12.000
started dealing with a lot of this stuff too, to

452
00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:14.400
be totally honest with you, because I don't think it's

453
00:21:14.440 --> 00:21:17.279
that normal to be young and have, you know, to

454
00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:20.880
be facing the level of kind of scrutiny that comes

455
00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:21.559
with podcasting.

456
00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:22.759
Podcasting is such a.

457
00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:25.559
Unique medium in that, particularly when you want to be political,

458
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:29.680
there is a level of scrutiny that is not normal

459
00:21:29.720 --> 00:21:33.400
that you can't just quickly adjust to. You can adjust

460
00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:35.319
to it with work and with time. So I also

461
00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:39.039
started seeing a psychologist and she encouraged me to get

462
00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:42.160
more angry, which I had realized once I started talking

463
00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:45.079
to her that I never ever got angry at anything,

464
00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:47.960
like I just wasn't an angry person, and that when

465
00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:51.759
we were faced with commentary or criticism, I would just

466
00:21:51.799 --> 00:21:54.440
internalize it and get incredibly anxious because I kind of

467
00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:56.759
felt like I needed to take everything on and read

468
00:21:57.160 --> 00:21:59.079
everything because it would make me better at my job,

469
00:21:59.240 --> 00:22:02.079
and she said to me, I think you'd be a

470
00:22:02.119 --> 00:22:05.079
total narcissist if you couldn't tell the difference between genuine

471
00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:10.920
feedback and just completely you know, nasty criticism, like back

472
00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:13.079
yourself to be able to tell the difference between those two,

473
00:22:13.160 --> 00:22:15.960
and when you think something is unfair, just get angry,

474
00:22:16.119 --> 00:22:18.759
like get angry and be like, screw that person, they're

475
00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:21.119
not right. I am right, and I'm going to keep

476
00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:22.960
doing I'm going to keep doing my job. And I

477
00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:24.680
think that's helped a lot, being like, nah, I'm not

478
00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:26.920
going to cop everything. I'll cop some things, but I'm

479
00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:29.559
just not going to accept certain things. And it's been very,

480
00:22:29.680 --> 00:22:31.880
very freeing to not feel like you need to internalize

481
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:35.119
everything and take everything on, because it's it's quite a

482
00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:37.519
heavy burden when you need to take every piece of

483
00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:41.000
criticism on, and it makes you feel so anxious.

484
00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:43.119
For sure, And like I said, I think so many people.

485
00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:45.599
I mean the fact that you backed yourselves, you went

486
00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:48.640
out and you did it and now you're like you're

487
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:51.640
living and breathing it and having to like, as you said,

488
00:22:51.640 --> 00:22:56.119
you're growing on the job. I think you've become really

489
00:22:56.160 --> 00:22:58.480
important role models for young women just by the way

490
00:22:58.519 --> 00:23:01.519
that you are managing that and handling that, And I

491
00:23:01.559 --> 00:23:04.440
think I love that you're willing to speak up about

492
00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:09.200
the challenges and having to see a psychologist and understanding

493
00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:11.440
the pitfalls, but doing it anyway.

494
00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:13.440
Well, that's the important thing I think to us, Like,

495
00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:17.480
imagine if we threw this away. I also think it's

496
00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:19.759
just like a nature, it's just part of the job.

497
00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:22.559
So I think the onus is on us to find

498
00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:26.079
ways to protect ourselves and to put armor on when

499
00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:28.319
we go to work. And it's also been really important

500
00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:34.319
for us to differentiate Shameless Michelle and Shameless Zarah and

501
00:23:34.359 --> 00:23:37.640
then the Michelle and Zara that we have been our

502
00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:40.799
entire lives that spend time with our families and our

503
00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:43.359
friends and our boyfriends and in my case, my dog.

504
00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:46.279
Like those two things are separate entities. So I think

505
00:23:46.279 --> 00:23:48.039
it's been a big lesson for me that what someone

506
00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:51.079
thinks of Shameless Michelle is not what they think of

507
00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:59.200
me the person, Like it's two separate things.

508
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:03.680
You have launched the podcast, you've started your own media company,

509
00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:07.119
you've gone into the podcast full time, and now you

510
00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:10.960
have written a book together as well, also directed primarily

511
00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:11.720
at women.

512
00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:12.200
In their twenties.

513
00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:14.200
Do you ever foresee a time where they might be

514
00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:16.839
you might go your separate ways and do separate things.

515
00:24:16.839 --> 00:24:20.720
You've almost become like the Hamish and Andy.

516
00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:23.759
Amish and Andy, I've just been joined at the hip.

517
00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:27.039
For almost their entire careers and it's a winning formula.

518
00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:29.000
And maybe it's too early to tell, but do you

519
00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:30.920
have any thoughts on that, whether you will continue to

520
00:24:31.400 --> 00:24:33.319
work together or go off and do separate things.

521
00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:35.960
I mean, the first thing is we are We're bound

522
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:38.240
by a business that we love a lot, so that

523
00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:40.319
business will always exist in some form, and I think

524
00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:44.039
we will always work together in some form of some

525
00:24:44.279 --> 00:24:46.720
form or another for a very very long time. But

526
00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:49.279
within that, I think absolutely we'll pursue our own projects.

527
00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:51.960
I mean, as much as we have similar interests, we

528
00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:54.079
also have different interests from time to time. And I

529
00:24:54.119 --> 00:24:56.400
think the best part about the fact that we will

530
00:24:56.400 --> 00:24:58.880
work together for a really long time is that when

531
00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:01.119
we do separate things, you kind of have someone to

532
00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:03.440
bounce off straight away. Like if we ever wanted to

533
00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:05.640
write separate books, you've got a second editor right there.

534
00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:08.119
Or if you wanted advice on projects you want to

535
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:10.240
take on, you've got someone right there, Like I think

536
00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:13.079
we've kind of got the cheat's way to a career

537
00:25:13.319 --> 00:25:16.240
separately because we're probably not doing it separately at all.

538
00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:18.440
We're probably just having the other person in area the

539
00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:18.960
whole time.

540
00:25:19.119 --> 00:25:21.319
Yeah, we have like a great working relationship in that

541
00:25:21.400 --> 00:25:23.759
I think we're really honest with each other. And I say,

542
00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:27.079
Zara and I doing podcasting and hosting things together and

543
00:25:27.160 --> 00:25:30.440
working on projects together for like twenty years, but as

544
00:25:30.519 --> 00:25:32.559
Zara said, it's really important for us to also have

545
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:34.559
our own things. And I think, like you gave the

546
00:25:34.599 --> 00:25:36.640
example of Hami she and Andycass and I don't think

547
00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:39.359
we are like them, like that is the dream to

548
00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:41.960
be on that level, But they also do things separately,

549
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:44.759
like they go on separate TV shows and they do

550
00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:47.039
things apart. And I think that's really important to Zara

551
00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:51.160
and I that we have a similar balance because like anyone,

552
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:53.240
like sometimes we need a break from each other just

553
00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:57.119
for a day. Like we are so intensely close. We

554
00:25:57.279 --> 00:25:59.720
are in each other's pockets all day every day, and

555
00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:03.440
I think think we do relish time and energy being

556
00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:05.839
spent apart because then we can be each other's mentors

557
00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:08.759
as well. And I love having Zara in my corner

558
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:11.319
for that type of stuff because I trust her opinion

559
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:15.440
and I trust her sense of content and of business

560
00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:17.480
better than anyone else in my life. Like, I think

561
00:26:17.480 --> 00:26:20.119
she's incredible. So I think we both just consider ourselves

562
00:26:20.200 --> 00:26:22.839
very lucky, and that we also have two skill sets

563
00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:25.240
that are completely different that I think really balance each

564
00:26:25.240 --> 00:26:28.119
other really nicely. And the things I have that are

565
00:26:28.119 --> 00:26:31.079
weaknesses Zara compliments and vice versa.

566
00:26:31.400 --> 00:26:34.200
Do you think that going back to that public criticism,

567
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:36.440
do you think it has really helped that there are

568
00:26:36.440 --> 00:26:39.440
two of you in it together. You've got that, you know,

569
00:26:39.480 --> 00:26:41.079
like it's not one of you're out on your own.

570
00:26:41.240 --> 00:26:43.839
There is no doubt I don't think that. I mean

571
00:26:43.880 --> 00:26:46.319
I say this to Michelle all the time. There's no

572
00:26:46.359 --> 00:26:48.440
bloody way I could do this by myself. And I

573
00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:50.720
really do fundamentally believe that I have all of the

574
00:26:50.759 --> 00:26:54.559
respect in the world for people who have careers like

575
00:26:54.559 --> 00:26:57.799
this by themselves. Like I can't imagine how difficult it

576
00:26:57.880 --> 00:27:00.400
must be, because like I said before, oh, I do

577
00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:02.519
feel like we've kind of got the cheat's way to

578
00:27:02.599 --> 00:27:05.079
having a career because we have it together. I mean,

579
00:27:05.119 --> 00:27:07.920
it does mean if someone thinks we probably sink together now,

580
00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:09.160
but you know.

581
00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:11.759
What, like we also balance each other out, Zaren. I

582
00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:14.160
noticed really early on that when one of us was

583
00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:16.119
having a really bad day, say they'd read a review

584
00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:20.599
that really hurt their self esteem, the other person was

585
00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:23.319
always like on a different level of It's very very

586
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:25.880
rare that we're ever both feeling low at the same time.

587
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:28.039
It always tends to be the case that one person's

588
00:27:28.039 --> 00:27:31.319
feeling low, the other person's feeling quite upbeat, quite positive,

589
00:27:31.799 --> 00:27:35.039
and quite holistically about things, and can lift them out

590
00:27:35.079 --> 00:27:37.000
of it. And I love that we have that. I

591
00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:39.759
don't know how that's happened, where we just always seem

592
00:27:39.880 --> 00:27:42.119
to be able to pick the other one up when

593
00:27:42.119 --> 00:27:45.480
they stumble and fall, so thank god. I can't imagine

594
00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:46.960
what it would be like if we both ended up

595
00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:49.440
in pits together and just couldn't get out of it.

596
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:52.640
I'm sure that that wouldn't happen, or you would find

597
00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:56.240
a way that the book The Space Between is it's

598
00:27:56.279 --> 00:27:59.759
a series of essays, which makes it a very easy

599
00:28:00.039 --> 00:28:03.559
to pick up and read. I've been again, I'm not

600
00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:06.599
your target demographic, but I've really enjoyed the book. It's

601
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:08.680
divided into distinct sections, but I can pick it up

602
00:28:08.680 --> 00:28:11.480
at any page and read a short essay and take

603
00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:14.680
something away from that. What inspired you to want to

604
00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:17.119
move from podcasting to writing.

605
00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:19.599
The book, Well, look, we were always writers before the

606
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:24.079
podcast so we love writing as much as we love

607
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:26.759
hosting podcasts and editing podcasting. We think it's such a

608
00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:30.720
great way to speak to women and I guess build

609
00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:35.440
connections and build community. We are writers by trade originally,

610
00:28:35.480 --> 00:28:37.559
and we just adore writing, and I think we had

611
00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:39.920
missed it when we worked at Mum and mea. We

612
00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:43.480
were churning out four to six articles a day, and

613
00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:45.240
although I don't want to go back to that life

614
00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:48.200
because I don't think that's necessarily like honing your craft

615
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:50.920
and being a writer, we just found ourselves itching to

616
00:28:50.960 --> 00:28:53.440
want to work on a writing project, and in the

617
00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:56.519
lead up to Penguin reaching out to us and asking

618
00:28:56.599 --> 00:28:59.240
us if we'd ever considered writing a book together, we

619
00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:01.319
had tossed around the idea for a book a couple

620
00:29:01.319 --> 00:29:04.359
of weeks before, and we'd very very quickly settled on

621
00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:07.440
the idea of writing a series of essays for women

622
00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:11.000
going through their twenties because it's been a crazy time

623
00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:13.119
for us, like looking across our twenties, We've had so

624
00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:18.400
many varying experiences, We've learned so much about ourselves. We

625
00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:21.680
feel like this decade, although it is literally the second

626
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:23.839
or third decade we've lived, we feel like it really

627
00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:26.200
does define a lot about a person, and it does

628
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:30.160
see a person come into their own and shape the

629
00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:33.359
years to come and the decades to come. So we

630
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:35.680
just love writing. And I think as well that when

631
00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:37.680
we worked at Mama Mea, what I loved about Zara

632
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:40.720
and my relationship is that I loved reading her work,

633
00:29:40.839 --> 00:29:43.599
like I consider myself so lucky to have my words

634
00:29:43.640 --> 00:29:46.960
alongside hers. And I think we're also very very different writers.

635
00:29:47.119 --> 00:29:50.720
Zara is far more journalistic, I think in the way

636
00:29:50.799 --> 00:29:54.000
she approaches things. She is so thorough with her research

637
00:29:54.119 --> 00:29:58.200
and so great with interviewing people and getting different perspectives

638
00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:02.079
and having that really explore kind of essay. And then

639
00:30:02.119 --> 00:30:05.640
I think I'm probably more on the creative writing spectrum.

640
00:30:05.799 --> 00:30:08.480
So I think our essays side by side are a

641
00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:10.839
very different tone. We have a super different tone of voice,

642
00:30:10.839 --> 00:30:12.960
and that's actually what I love most about the book,

643
00:30:13.279 --> 00:30:17.240
because I think it's really varied in that every piece

644
00:30:17.319 --> 00:30:19.440
is different, and I think in a really colorful and

645
00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:20.000
great way.

646
00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:24.559
You are both exceptional writers. The book is exceptionally well written,

647
00:30:25.599 --> 00:30:27.359
so congratulations.

648
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:29.519
On that in the book. I mean, it's been a

649
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:30.160
while since.

650
00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:31.759
I was in my twenties, so it is interesting to

651
00:30:31.799 --> 00:30:34.079
hear you talk about the unique challenges of your twenties

652
00:30:34.119 --> 00:30:37.839
and a lot of our listeners on this show going

653
00:30:37.880 --> 00:30:40.960
through that period of their lives as well, and you

654
00:30:41.240 --> 00:30:43.160
kind of describe it as being this I mean, hence

655
00:30:43.160 --> 00:30:46.240
the name of the space between this space between leaving

656
00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:49.799
your adolescence becoming an adult but not kind of fully adulting,

657
00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:52.519
like there's no mortgage and kids, and it's this time

658
00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:56.720
where you're sort of navigating adult life and all of

659
00:30:56.759 --> 00:30:59.319
the unique challenges that that entails. One thing that I

660
00:30:59.319 --> 00:31:02.200
do remember about that age for me, and something that

661
00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:05.279
I see that has come up with clients of mine

662
00:31:05.799 --> 00:31:08.400
in my therapy practice when I was doing more therapy

663
00:31:08.519 --> 00:31:11.279
with young women and probably young men as well, is

664
00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:14.640
this kind of a sense of urgency, like I've got to.

665
00:31:14.599 --> 00:31:15.480
Take everything off.

666
00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:17.799
Do you experience that, Like I've got to get through union,

667
00:31:17.799 --> 00:31:18.839
I've got to get a job, and then I've got

668
00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:20.200
to be making a name for myself and I've got

669
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:21.759
to be climbing the ladder and I've got it. If

670
00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:24.319
I'm not married or engaged or have at least found

671
00:31:24.319 --> 00:31:27.200
a long term relationship by this point in my life,

672
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:28.759
I feel like I'm being left behind.

673
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:30.119
And it's only in hindsight.

674
00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:33.319
You know that you can say, oh, take the pressure off,

675
00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:37.359
But at the time, that sense of urgency feels very real.

676
00:31:37.480 --> 00:31:39.519
Do you find that as well?

677
00:31:39.920 --> 00:31:42.279
Yeah, completely, I think that's bang on.

678
00:31:42.440 --> 00:31:46.079
I think for so many young women it's so kind

679
00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:49.279
of embedded in us. I think this really subconscous sense

680
00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:53.440
that our biological clock is ticking. You know that that's

681
00:31:53.480 --> 00:31:55.759
all you ever here, like when you hear biological clock

682
00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:58.799
or you hear is ticking too. And I think I

683
00:31:58.839 --> 00:32:02.119
think we all kind of either consciously or subconsciously have

684
00:32:02.200 --> 00:32:04.640
a backwards timeline for that, like when is the latest

685
00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:06.319
possible time I can have a kid? If I want

686
00:32:06.359 --> 00:32:08.039
to have a kid, do I want to get married

687
00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:09.920
before that? Or after that? Do I have to be

688
00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:12.160
a you know, a real peak of my career before

689
00:32:12.200 --> 00:32:15.359
I have children. And I think it has really kind

690
00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:18.119
of bred this sense of absolute urgency for women in

691
00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:20.759
their twenties who do happen to be career driven, to

692
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:25.640
get to a really high peak, much higher than maybe

693
00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:27.880
you know a man has to be at because of

694
00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:29.880
all those things. And I think what it's also done

695
00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:33.519
is it's kind of created this. I think there's we

696
00:32:33.559 --> 00:32:36.599
look up to women now at the moment generally who

697
00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:39.640
have what we would deem quote unquote a cool career.

698
00:32:39.960 --> 00:32:42.000
I think that the role models or the women that

699
00:32:42.039 --> 00:32:44.440
we deem popular at the moment are people with great

700
00:32:44.599 --> 00:32:47.359
careers who have done really successful things. And I think

701
00:32:47.559 --> 00:32:49.640
for women in their twenties, there's a real sense of, well,

702
00:32:50.079 --> 00:32:53.359
I've got to get to a really impressive point by

703
00:32:53.440 --> 00:32:57.319
a point. And it's one of those things where you

704
00:32:57.359 --> 00:32:58.839
hear a lot of people say, well, it's a marathon,

705
00:32:58.880 --> 00:32:59.279
not a sprint.

706
00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:00.559
We've got so many years to work.

707
00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:02.240
In fact, we'll probably working till the end of our

708
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:03.680
lives if we're going to live to about one hundred

709
00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:05.799
and fifty, you know, like we'll be working for a

710
00:33:05.799 --> 00:33:08.759
really really long time. But it's it's really hard to

711
00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:09.640
shake that sense.

712
00:33:09.799 --> 00:33:10.000
You know.

713
00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:13.000
I don't think that Michelle and I would be the

714
00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:14.920
perfect people at all to give advice on that, because

715
00:33:14.920 --> 00:33:16.400
they think we're absolutely victims of that.

716
00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:20.240
Yeah, I just think normalizing that too. Like I said,

717
00:33:20.319 --> 00:33:22.319
I don't think you ever get that sense of perspective

718
00:33:22.359 --> 00:33:25.559
until you're well out of it. And what I see

719
00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:30.759
too is women. I know that you both talked just

720
00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:33.279
recently about I think you were reading Is it Hollywayne?

721
00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:35.079
Right? Is that who wrote the book?

722
00:33:35.160 --> 00:33:38.079
Like, yes, I gage and you.

723
00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:41.000
Both said kind of put me off having kids like

724
00:33:41.079 --> 00:33:45.960
this whole if I want kids now. But that's the

725
00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:47.039
other thing I see too.

726
00:33:47.079 --> 00:33:49.359
When the women do get very successful in their career,

727
00:33:49.400 --> 00:33:53.440
then it's they keep putting off intentionally or not. When

728
00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:56.400
is the right I remember experiencing it myself, When is

729
00:33:56.440 --> 00:33:59.799
the right time, you know, to take this period of

730
00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:01.359
time out of my career?

731
00:34:01.400 --> 00:34:01.839
And then what.

732
00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:06.839
Happens after I come back? And there is never a

733
00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:09.280
good time, Like it's the eternal kind of It's just

734
00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:11.559
we can postpone and postpone and postpone it.

735
00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:14.079
I don't know if there's a point to that question.

736
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:15.159
It's just I guess I wonder.

737
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:18.599
No, it's right though you have Razara obviously, because you

738
00:34:18.679 --> 00:34:22.679
had talked openly in the book about endometriosis, and there's

739
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:26.559
question of fertility, and well I should cross that bridge

740
00:34:26.559 --> 00:34:27.960
when I come to it, Well, but how do I

741
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:28.920
know what I'm at the bridge?

742
00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:31.480
And what do I do in the meantime?

743
00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:35.840
And they're big issues, They're big challenging issues for young

744
00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:36.960
women completely.

745
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:38.760
And I also think it's a conversation that I don't

746
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:41.679
hear any young women have on a public level. I

747
00:34:41.679 --> 00:34:45.000
think it's definitely a quiet conversation that people have, but nothing,

748
00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:49.039
nothing very public. And I guess the thing that's always

749
00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:52.000
kind of frustrated me as someone with endometriosis is there's

750
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:56.679
a lot of confusion and frustration about understanding, you know,

751
00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:59.960
what fertility can look like. And I guess, as I

752
00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:02.039
write in the book, the beest fear of mine is

753
00:35:02.039 --> 00:35:04.400
to get to a point where I go and say,

754
00:35:04.440 --> 00:35:05.920
you know what, I'm ready to have kids, and a

755
00:35:05.960 --> 00:35:07.280
doctor turns around to me and says.

756
00:35:07.159 --> 00:35:07.639
Are you kidding?

757
00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:09.719
You should have been doing this three years ago? Like

758
00:35:09.719 --> 00:35:11.639
why weren't you doing this three years ago? But the

759
00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:14.039
reality is, no one's told me that now either, because

760
00:35:14.039 --> 00:35:18.119
people tell you not to worry. And it's that fine

761
00:35:18.159 --> 00:35:21.519
line between fearmongering young women and saying, you know, you

762
00:35:21.559 --> 00:35:23.320
need to get going, you need to be freezing eggs

763
00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:25.840
you need to do all these things, and also that

764
00:35:25.960 --> 00:35:28.360
sense that it's okay to be worrying about it and

765
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:31.320
it's okay to care about it because, as we know,

766
00:35:31.400 --> 00:35:35.079
it affects quite a lot of women. So the part

767
00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:36.960
of that essay that's the funniest to me is I

768
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:38.760
just kind of like throw all these issues out and

769
00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:42.480
come to absolutely no conclusion on anything. But I guess

770
00:35:42.519 --> 00:35:46.400
that it's a really kind of authentic insight into my brain.

771
00:35:46.519 --> 00:35:48.760
It's just like a whole lot of confusion, a whole

772
00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:51.679
lot of frustration on paper, and I don't really know

773
00:35:51.679 --> 00:35:53.840
where to go from there. And I think a lot

774
00:35:53.840 --> 00:35:54.760
of women feel the same.

775
00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:57.360
Yeah, And there aren't always answers tied in a neat

776
00:35:57.360 --> 00:35:59.559
little bow. I think that's the point that you make

777
00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:02.360
a lot of this stuff is just confusing, and we

778
00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:05.239
just are all sitting in the confusion together. And I

779
00:36:05.239 --> 00:36:07.800
think that's the power of this book is that you

780
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:12.639
have both talked about some really deeply personal things. Michelle,

781
00:36:12.679 --> 00:36:17.599
you talk really openly about paralyzing debilitating anxiety, which again

782
00:36:17.719 --> 00:36:19.320
just makes me think you're such a rock star for

783
00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:21.760
doing what you do, putting yourself out there and opening

784
00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:25.119
yourself up to public opinion and criticism like that. For

785
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:28.360
anybody who experiences anxiety like that can feel like the

786
00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:30.119
most terrifying thing.

787
00:36:30.280 --> 00:36:32.559
Right, You talk about.

788
00:36:32.280 --> 00:36:37.639
Your parents being divorced, parents with illness, getting cancer, and

789
00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:40.400
there's a story there about a sexual assault. I don'

790
00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:41.760
want to go too much because we want people to

791
00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:45.960
go and buy the book. I'm curious to know how

792
00:36:46.440 --> 00:36:50.239
did you decide kind of what to share because there

793
00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:52.719
is such personal information in there.

794
00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:55.519
It's such an interesting question because I think it's one

795
00:36:55.599 --> 00:37:00.559
that across my life, I'll probably feel differently about it.

796
00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:02.239
It would be a lie for me to say that

797
00:37:02.360 --> 00:37:05.280
I haven't had moments over the last eighteen months where

798
00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:08.199
I've thought, should I have shared as much as I did?

799
00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:11.719
I think no matter what, I am glad that I

800
00:37:11.840 --> 00:37:14.599
arrived at the decision to just kind of speak about

801
00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:16.400
everything I spoke about in the book, whether it was

802
00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:18.920
personal trauma or something as silly as like buying a

803
00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:21.440
pregnancy test but I didn't want to be pregnant. I'm

804
00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:24.119
glad that I did it because I think ultimately it

805
00:37:24.199 --> 00:37:26.920
will hopefully make women feel seen and heard, and it

806
00:37:26.920 --> 00:37:30.039
will speak to an experience that many people, men and

807
00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:33.360
women and non binary people have had in private or

808
00:37:33.400 --> 00:37:36.360
in secrecy that they've never spoken about. But I think

809
00:37:36.679 --> 00:37:38.440
I've kind of have to sit in a space at

810
00:37:38.440 --> 00:37:42.199
the moment where I'm comfortable with giving that of myself

811
00:37:42.760 --> 00:37:44.599
and doing that in a generous sense. And I think

812
00:37:44.599 --> 00:37:47.400
it was generous to do the final essay about sexual

813
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:49.920
assault and at the same time sit in the fact

814
00:37:49.960 --> 00:37:52.519
that that's going to be really difficult and that that's

815
00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:55.960
going to drain me energetically. And I think it has

816
00:37:56.039 --> 00:37:58.719
drained me a lot in the last month, because of course,

817
00:37:58.719 --> 00:38:01.000
as soon as you open up your own story, you

818
00:38:01.039 --> 00:38:03.719
get a whole bunch of people's stories in response. And

819
00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:05.639
I'm really glad that people have reached out to me

820
00:38:05.719 --> 00:38:09.840
and told me about experiences that perhaps they've never told

821
00:38:09.880 --> 00:38:13.000
anyone about. But that is a huge task for anyone

822
00:38:13.039 --> 00:38:15.920
to take on mentally or emotionally, so I think I

823
00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:18.039
think I'm always gonna have a complicated relationship with it.

824
00:38:18.119 --> 00:38:21.199
I don't think it's accurate for me to get on

825
00:38:21.239 --> 00:38:23.880
this podcast and be like I shared it and now

826
00:38:23.880 --> 00:38:27.239
it's totally fine, and like I'm fine being as public

827
00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:28.920
with the world as I want to be, and like

828
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:33.239
my life is open for anyone to I guess, take

829
00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:37.760
lessons and experiences and insight from because it's been hard,

830
00:38:37.880 --> 00:38:39.840
Like the last month has been really hard. I have

831
00:38:39.920 --> 00:38:42.599
had moments where I'm like, geez, the easier thing would

832
00:38:42.599 --> 00:38:45.239
have been for me to never speak about this. But

833
00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:48.719
on the bright side, I think speaking about it has

834
00:38:48.800 --> 00:38:51.599
shown me that a lot of people go through these

835
00:38:51.639 --> 00:38:54.559
things and they never feel like they can give their

836
00:38:54.599 --> 00:38:57.880
story weight. They feel like they're not allowed to feel

837
00:38:57.880 --> 00:39:01.159
traumatized by it. Years after the event, they feel like

838
00:39:01.159 --> 00:39:02.840
they should just move on and get over it. And

839
00:39:02.840 --> 00:39:05.199
I think that's a really universal experience for any woman

840
00:39:05.239 --> 00:39:08.280
who has been sexually assaulted, and that they try and

841
00:39:08.360 --> 00:39:10.639
downplay what happened to them or they try and minimize

842
00:39:10.679 --> 00:39:14.079
it at every turn. So I mean, it's a complicated one.

843
00:39:14.199 --> 00:39:17.840
I think I'm happy ultimately, I'm happy that essay is

844
00:39:17.880 --> 00:39:19.280
in the book, and I'm glad it's in the book

845
00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:22.079
because I think it was really important in shaping who

846
00:39:22.119 --> 00:39:25.400
I am on the cussp of my twenties. But it

847
00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:27.840
has not been easy in any sense, and I can

848
00:39:27.880 --> 00:39:31.239
totally understand why so many women in the public eye

849
00:39:31.519 --> 00:39:34.760
or otherwise never choose to share these stories. Because it

850
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:36.360
is not an easy thing to do, and it is

851
00:39:36.440 --> 00:39:39.480
certainly the more difficult route to take. All I hope

852
00:39:39.480 --> 00:39:42.480
is that it's the most helpful one for the people

853
00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:43.239
who buy the book.

854
00:39:43.719 --> 00:39:47.599
There is just so much power in the sharing of experience,

855
00:39:47.719 --> 00:39:52.400
like the telling of stories, and that for people to

856
00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:55.159
see somebody else who has been through it speaking publicly

857
00:39:55.159 --> 00:39:57.519
about something that they have experienced or they have been

858
00:39:57.559 --> 00:40:03.480
through is so and you know, potentially really healing for people.

859
00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:06.760
Just to make people feel less alone. I think that

860
00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:09.440
is what is the wonderful thing about the book that

861
00:40:09.480 --> 00:40:12.719
you've written. But having said that, you know, we all

862
00:40:12.760 --> 00:40:15.679
really appreciate hearing other people's stories, but it is really

863
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:18.679
like it's hard to be the one who's doing the sharing.

864
00:40:19.039 --> 00:40:20.840
And I guess I asked that because I know that,

865
00:40:21.159 --> 00:40:24.679
you know, Brene Brown obviously has done. She's a queen

866
00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:27.960
when it comes to all of that shame vulnerability stuff,

867
00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:31.039
and she talks about, you know, before she decides what

868
00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:34.199
to share, she makes sure that she's very much resolved

869
00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:36.840
something within herself. You know. It's kind of that sharing

870
00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:39.519
from the scab, not from the open wound. And so

871
00:40:40.320 --> 00:40:42.559
I was just curious, I guess to understand kind of

872
00:40:42.559 --> 00:40:45.519
what process you both went to in deciding together. You

873
00:40:45.559 --> 00:40:46.840
know what you would put in and what you would

874
00:40:46.920 --> 00:40:49.639
leave out, or what conversations you had with because sometimes

875
00:40:49.679 --> 00:40:51.880
there's other people involved in those stories too, right, so

876
00:40:53.079 --> 00:40:54.599
you're sharing other people's stories.

877
00:40:55.119 --> 00:40:57.800
Yeah, No, you're totally right when you say that the

878
00:40:57.840 --> 00:41:00.519
Brene Brown thing of wanting to talk about things once

879
00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:03.639
they're relatively resolved is the way is kind of the

880
00:41:04.360 --> 00:41:06.840
easiest way to be able to share because I would

881
00:41:06.880 --> 00:41:09.159
say that there's nothing that we touched in this book

882
00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:11.760
or went anywhere in this book without really coming to

883
00:41:11.800 --> 00:41:14.199
the conclusion together that this was something we were ready

884
00:41:14.199 --> 00:41:16.119
to write about because we'd gone through a few kind

885
00:41:16.199 --> 00:41:18.119
of steps in order to get to a point where

886
00:41:18.119 --> 00:41:19.119
we're ready to write about it.

887
00:41:19.159 --> 00:41:21.480
So we had these conversations between each other.

888
00:41:21.559 --> 00:41:23.880
But you're right, like a lot of the stories you

889
00:41:23.920 --> 00:41:27.880
want to write personally will almost always involve somebody else.

890
00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:32.239
And it's really hard because you have to be very

891
00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:35.440
strategic about the way that you tell these stories because

892
00:41:35.480 --> 00:41:37.679
some stuff's not for you to share, Like there are

893
00:41:37.719 --> 00:41:39.239
some details that are not for you to share.

894
00:41:39.639 --> 00:41:44.119
But that said, in a story like I don't know.

895
00:41:44.079 --> 00:41:46.519
Writing about breakups, or in a story I wrote about,

896
00:41:47.559 --> 00:41:50.360
you know, my parents being sick, you also come back

897
00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:53.199
to this idea of, well, I really do think this

898
00:41:53.239 --> 00:41:57.159
could help a large portion of people, Like I really

899
00:41:57.199 --> 00:41:57.800
do think that.

900
00:41:58.039 --> 00:41:59.639
So when I wrote about my.

901
00:41:59.639 --> 00:42:01.840
Parents being sick, it was kind of awkward because I

902
00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:04.360
am really really close to my parents, but we're also

903
00:42:05.159 --> 00:42:08.440
we also kind of have a pretty no fuss relationship,

904
00:42:08.519 --> 00:42:12.360
Like we don't have like very deeply sentimental conversations all

905
00:42:12.440 --> 00:42:15.719
the time. And so for me to turn around and say, well,

906
00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:18.280
the best way I express sentiment is when I'm writing

907
00:42:18.559 --> 00:42:20.920
stuff down and I'm ready to share it with the world,

908
00:42:21.400 --> 00:42:22.840
it's a bit awkward to then, you know, send it

909
00:42:22.840 --> 00:42:24.239
to them being like cool, So this is this thing

910
00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:26.639
that I've written that I've never really properly expressed to you,

911
00:42:27.199 --> 00:42:28.480
but here it is.

912
00:42:28.519 --> 00:42:31.079
It's awkward, and it's probably awkward for them to turn

913
00:42:31.079 --> 00:42:31.599
around to us.

914
00:42:31.519 --> 00:42:33.159
And be like, well, we didn't know any of this

915
00:42:33.280 --> 00:42:37.039
was going on in your head, but it's been quite

916
00:42:37.079 --> 00:42:39.039
clarifying and quite validating for us to be able to

917
00:42:39.079 --> 00:42:41.119
write it down. And like I said, you have to

918
00:42:41.159 --> 00:42:43.880
be very conscious of the people in your circle and

919
00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:46.599
the people in your orbit, who are you know being

920
00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:48.119
touched on in these stories. But at the end of

921
00:42:48.159 --> 00:42:51.679
the day, it's kind of for the greater good, not

922
00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:55.480
making us like saints by any stretch, but you do

923
00:42:55.679 --> 00:42:57.400
you do sense that well, if this is going to

924
00:42:57.400 --> 00:42:59.280
help quite a few people, then it's okay.

925
00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:03.639
So when I talk about, you know, finding some sense

926
00:43:03.679 --> 00:43:06.159
of purpose, which is fundamental to happiness, this is a

927
00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:08.480
show about happiness after all. I think when you can

928
00:43:08.559 --> 00:43:11.519
use your gifts and talents and resources doing something that

929
00:43:11.559 --> 00:43:13.760
you love and is it align with your values in

930
00:43:13.800 --> 00:43:16.440
the service of a greater good, than you are kicking

931
00:43:16.679 --> 00:43:19.800
goals and that seems to me like exactly what you

932
00:43:19.880 --> 00:43:21.639
both have struck on.

933
00:43:21.719 --> 00:43:22.400
That's what you're doing.

934
00:43:22.760 --> 00:43:24.000
Thank you, I mean, I hope.

935
00:43:24.039 --> 00:43:24.239
So.

936
00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:27.960
I think Zara and I want to be really thoughtful

937
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:29.840
with what we put out into the world, and we

938
00:43:29.880 --> 00:43:33.199
want to make sure that if we were given this platform,

939
00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:36.559
that we do something hopefully powerful with it. I think,

940
00:43:36.840 --> 00:43:40.719
if anything, there are perhaps too many people online who

941
00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:43.559
take all of the great things about having a platform,

942
00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:47.119
who take the endorsement deals and the social clout and

943
00:43:47.159 --> 00:43:50.800
whatever else comes with having a following online, but potentially

944
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:53.880
shirk some of the responsibility, and I think Zara and

945
00:43:53.960 --> 00:43:55.800
I really want to be people if we do have

946
00:43:55.920 --> 00:43:58.480
influence over young women, that we hopefully use it for

947
00:43:58.559 --> 00:44:00.719
some good. Not to say that we will always make

948
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:03.480
perfect decisions. I don't think anyone is capable of that,

949
00:44:03.599 --> 00:44:07.039
but at least we will try to think about what's

950
00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:09.079
best for our audience. And if we're going to put

951
00:44:09.079 --> 00:44:12.239
out sugary stuff on a podcast, it's just entertaining that

952
00:44:12.320 --> 00:44:14.880
sometimes we will also put out that more meaningful stuff

953
00:44:14.920 --> 00:44:17.679
that will hopefully make women feel like their stories being told,

954
00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:21.199
or that they have a safe space to tell their stories.

955
00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:25.119
Missions are Uh, just before you go, one last question,

956
00:44:25.159 --> 00:44:27.880
what advice would you give to young women thinking about

957
00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:29.119
going it alone?

958
00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:31.159
I mean, I think Mission and I might have very

959
00:44:31.159 --> 00:44:31.960
similar advice.

960
00:44:32.039 --> 00:44:33.039
I'll be interested to hear.

961
00:44:33.239 --> 00:44:35.119
I think the one thing that we tell any woman

962
00:44:35.119 --> 00:44:37.079
that wants to kind of go out something that you

963
00:44:37.119 --> 00:44:39.679
know has been lingering for a while is to just

964
00:44:39.800 --> 00:44:42.400
get started. I think that a lot of young women

965
00:44:42.440 --> 00:44:45.360
can be paralyzed by this sense of perfectionism and this

966
00:44:45.480 --> 00:44:48.119
sense that they want it to be absolutely ready to

967
00:44:48.159 --> 00:44:49.440
go before they pull the trigger.

968
00:44:49.440 --> 00:44:51.519
And I think if Mission and I approve of anything

969
00:44:51.559 --> 00:44:51.920
at all.

970
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:55.199
It's that just gets started, like get something up and

971
00:44:55.239 --> 00:44:58.360
then make it better, because I think it stops a

972
00:44:58.360 --> 00:44:59.920
lot of people in their tracks, this sense that it

973
00:45:00.039 --> 00:45:01.480
needs to be perfect before they start.

974
00:45:02.079 --> 00:45:04.360
We really love that advice. We give that to anyone

975
00:45:04.360 --> 00:45:07.159
who will listen. But on top of that, don't wait

976
00:45:07.239 --> 00:45:10.199
for someone else to back you. Back yourself, like we

977
00:45:10.280 --> 00:45:13.159
are living in twenty twenty. If you want to have

978
00:45:13.199 --> 00:45:14.639
a career in the media, or if you want to

979
00:45:14.679 --> 00:45:16.639
launch a small business or a side hustle, there has

980
00:45:16.679 --> 00:45:18.079
never been a better time to do it. Like you

981
00:45:18.159 --> 00:45:20.639
have all the tools at your disposal. If you get

982
00:45:20.679 --> 00:45:23.320
a little bit scrappy and a little bit creative, you

983
00:45:23.360 --> 00:45:26.599
can do anything. There is no gatekeeper anymore blocking the

984
00:45:26.599 --> 00:45:29.519
way to you, I don't know, getting into acting, like

985
00:45:29.559 --> 00:45:33.039
start a YouTube channel, start putting skits up online. There

986
00:45:33.079 --> 00:45:35.280
is no gatekeeper to you writing a book. Write a

987
00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:39.119
book and release it privately, or release it online to

988
00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:41.559
people who subscribe to your website. There are so many

989
00:45:41.559 --> 00:45:43.599
different ways for you to get where you want to go,

990
00:45:43.719 --> 00:45:45.760
and as long as you back yourself, that's all you need.

991
00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:47.760
You do not need anyone else to back you anymore.

992
00:45:47.840 --> 00:45:51.119
So I just hope more women do that and they

993
00:45:52.039 --> 00:45:55.440
know that they can achieve something really incredible if they

994
00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:58.559
just give themselves the time and the space to do that.

995
00:45:58.559 --> 00:46:02.679
That is absolutely fantastic advice. Thank you both for your

996
00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:05.400
time this morning. Congratulations on all of your success.

997
00:46:05.639 --> 00:46:08.239
Thank you so much, Cass, we have the best time.

998
00:46:08.320 --> 00:46:09.760
Thank you so much for having us.

999
00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:15.119
I think we can all agree that Zara and Mish

1000
00:46:15.159 --> 00:46:18.079
are two very inspiring young women on a mission to

1001
00:46:18.159 --> 00:46:20.239
change the world in a really positive way, and I

1002
00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:23.559
personally can't wait to see what they do next. Of course,

1003
00:46:23.559 --> 00:46:26.119
you can find them by searching for the Shameless podcast

1004
00:46:26.199 --> 00:46:28.920
wherever you listen to podcasts, and if you're a young

1005
00:46:28.960 --> 00:46:32.000
woman navigating the chaos and magic that is your twenties,

1006
00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:34.880
you might enjoy their brand new book, The Space Between.

1007
00:46:35.519 --> 00:46:38.119
Remember to come and say hi to me on Instagram.

1008
00:46:38.159 --> 00:46:42.199
I'm cast done, underscore XO, or visit my website casdne

1009
00:46:42.280 --> 00:46:44.800
dot com and my third book, Crappy to Happy Love

1010
00:46:44.840 --> 00:46:47.280
who You're With is now available for pre order.

1011
00:46:47.960 --> 00:46:49.880
Don't Forget. If you enjoy the show.

1012
00:46:49.599 --> 00:46:51.559
To leave us a rating and a review, it helps

1013
00:46:51.639 --> 00:46:54.159
us to get the podcast listen to by more people.

1014
00:46:54.480 --> 00:46:56.800
Looking forward to catching you in the next episode of

1015
00:46:56.840 --> 00:47:00.559
Crappy to Happy. Crappy to Happy is presented by hast Done,

1016
00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:02.159
produced by Davis Lensky.

1017
00:47:02.440 --> 00:47:11.079
Audio production by Darcy Thompson. Listener h