July 4, 2024

Motherhood & Mental Illness with Ariane Beeston

Motherhood & Mental Illness with Ariane Beeston
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Motherhood & Mental Illness with Ariane Beeston
Motherhood & Mental Illness with Ariane Beeston
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Season 12 Psychology & Neuroscience Women's Health And Wellbeing Personal Growth & Healing

Cass talks with fellow psychologist, Ariane Beeston about Ariane's experience of severe postpartum depression and psychosis. They discuss the feelings of failure that can prevent new mothers from asking for help, the lack of support available for mums beyond their babys' infancy, and the added shame of being a mental health professional experiencing mental illness.Ariane speaks candidly about how she was able to fool people into believing she was fine even when she wasn't, what it was like being admitted to an inpatient psychiatric facility, and what ultimately helped her to heal and recover.
*original version of this ep had overlapping audio through the last 5 minutes. This has been fixed. Apologies!
Her book, "Because I'm Not Myself, You See" is out now in all bookstores.
Connect with Ariane:https://www.arianebeeston.com/Centre for Perinatal Excellence
Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypodwww.tiktok.com/crappytohappypod
Join the free 7-day Happiness Challenge:www.cassdunn.com/happiness

Connect with Cass:

www.cassdunn.com
www.instagram.com/cassdunn_xo

Contact Crappy to Happy:

Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
www.crappytohappypod.com
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypod
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Transcript
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This is Crappita Happy and I am your host, Cas Done.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist. I'm mindfulness meditation teacher

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and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In

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this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent

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people who are experts in their field and who have

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something of value to share that will help you feel

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less crappy and more happy. Before we get into today's episode,

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I want to tell you about two quick things. The

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first is it on the twenty third of July, I

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am having a free online workshop all about how to

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cultivate self confidence so overcoming imposter syndrome self doubt, cultivating

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self confidence from the inside that it's not attached to

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your external achievements and outcomes live on zoom. You can

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register on my website. Just go to cast Done dot

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com and the top of the page you will see

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the button to press to register, so don't miss out

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on that one. Secondly, if you would like to send

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me a voicemail, you can now also go to my

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website cast on dot com Forward Slash Podcast and you'll

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see there that you can press a button send me

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a voice note. If there is any topic you want

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me to cover on the show. If you just want

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to share your feedback, please head to my website send

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me a voicemail. I would love to hear from you.

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Now let's get to talking about today's guest. Arianne Beston

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was a child protection worker and she was a newly

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registered psychologist working for the Department of Communities and Justice

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in New South Wales when she gave birth to her

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first baby, a little boy, and quickly began to experience

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scary breaks with reality. She was later diagnosed with severe

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postpartum depression with psychotic features. She has documented her experience

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in her brand new memoir, which is called Because I'm

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Not Myself. You see, it is so candid, it is

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hilariously funny also at times, and it tells the story

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and what she and I shared in our conversation is

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the pressure that is put on you mothers, and how

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quickly things can go terribly wrong, and how much stigma

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and shame there still exists in this space, and how

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many women can be really reluctant to come forward and

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to speak up about their experiences. Ariane is now the

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communications and content manager for the Center of Perinatal Excellence

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otherwise known as Cope. She's also a dancer, she's a choreographer,

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she's a writer obviously, and she is just a delightful

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human being. If there is anybody in your life who

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is a mother, wants to be a mother, or been

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in the remote vicinity of a mother, then this is

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an absolute mask. Lissen Ariane, Welcome to the crap It

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a Happy podcast.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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I have devoured your book. It is called because I'm

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Not Myself, you see, which honestly gold star for the

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title of the book.

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I'm so glad you like it. I was so attached

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to it. I would have been devastated if my publisher

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said we had to change I would have fought for it.

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It is perfect. It is perfect. And I just wanted

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to say also personally, before we even dive into your

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experience and the book perinatal Mental Health, which is what

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we're here to talk about, I could just personally relate

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so much to your experience. I came out of an

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undergrad degree in psychology. I worked in child protection. I

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was taking kids from their families age twenty two. I

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mean that is insanity in hindsight.

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Wow, so a lot of similarity.

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Yeah, yeah, wanted to always write have now written books

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like not a memoir obviously, but I've written as well.

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And then I went on to do my clinical psychology degree.

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But after I had my daughter and I had my

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own post my own postnatal depression, which I didn't actually

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admit at the time or didn't realize at the time,

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like only in hindsight. It was like, that's pretty fucked up.

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So you know, I don't realize it at the time,

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I don't think for various reasons or aren't willing to

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acknowledge it. So so much I was reading your book thinking,

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oh my god.

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That's so that's so exciting, and you exactly.

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Yeah, we were experiencing to the point that I had

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to put it down and walk away sometimes because it

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was just a little bit like, oh god, it took me.

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Yeah, right, that took me the bad space.

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Yeah, you have written it so beautifully, and I think

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that's the beauty. I think many many women and mothers

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in particular, and I speak to a lot of them,

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will be able to see themselves in your story and

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that is lovely for them. So that means a lot.

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Do you say that because I think you know a

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few people have since I wasn't sure if I would

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be able to relate to the book because your experience

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was so sort of extreme, of the extreme end of

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the spectrum. But there's so much in there is in

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it that people can actually relate to just from that

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transition motherhood. So that's been really lovely to get that feedback.

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Yeah, and so obviously so up front, you experienced post

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natal psychosis, which we will get to that a small

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number of women, but anybody who has had postnatal or

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perinatal depression or anxiety, it's all in there. Even you're

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talking about the nappy rash and the not feeding and

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they're not sleeping. I was like, oh my god, I

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remember that. That's the thing.

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I think even if you hadn't been had perinatal anxiety

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or depression, women will still see themselves in you know,

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that moment after birth, for instance, and if you don't

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necessarily feel that Russian love at first sight, or that

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first drive home from hospital when you drive slowly because

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you've got precious cargo in the back, or the first

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time you try to put up fram and you realize

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that you actually need a higher IQ to put up

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the prem that you've bought and you have big regrets.

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So I think, yeah, there's those moments and sort of

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because I think a lot of people can relate to,

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even if it's not the perinatal anxiety and depression.

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It's so personal, but it's so universal. They're getting home

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from the hospital and just looking at each other.

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What do we do now?

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What next? What is this new life in this new world?

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It's so relatable.

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Do we play with it? What is it? Absolutely absilly

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and it's such a it is such a universal experience.

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Some of those those key points in each of our journeys.

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So arion. We romanticize motherhood. Anybody who wants to have

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a baby and who is in the very very fortunate

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position of being able to have a baby, looks forward

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to this momentous occasion. It's with so much anticipation. We're

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so excited, it's going to be so wonderful. And the

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truth of the matter is that for many women it

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is not. And you've outlined that really well. I know

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that from my own lived experience. After I had my baby,

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I felt this kind of deep desire to want to

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warn other women and other mothers about my experience from

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your experience and the work that you do. Now, how

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do we find the balance between effectively preparing women for

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the what the reality is going to be without going

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down that path of scaring them or you know, we

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don't want to be negative about it.

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But yeah, I love that question, and I love the

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you've asked that question because I think, you know, it

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is so much of the work that we do and

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that I'm doing now with COPE is about preparing and

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doing that sort of preventative work before you have the baby.

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And it's not like you said, I think and I

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do talk about this in the book as well. It's

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about not wanting to scare people, to kind of put

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this really negative lens on motherhood, but to prepare you.

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And so some of the things that we've worked on

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is having it. So we've got an app Are Ready

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to Cope Out, which actually sort of drip leads information

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through pregnancy and postpartum sort of times to where you're at.

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And it really does have touched on some of those things,

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like the impact of sleep deprivation or the challenges to

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your relationship and how that can come as such a

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shock and you know what happens if your birth doesn't

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go to plan and try to respond to differences in

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the way that you've been parented and how you'll manage

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some of those decisions. And so yeah, sort of really

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just sort of gently deadly introducing those topics and then

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also talking about the risks of experiencing a paranortal mental illness,

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talking about what the risk actors are and whether you

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might get higher risk, whether your partner might get higher risk.

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But I think what you said, and I was thinking

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about reflecting on that just now there's almost you do

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want to give people the information and make sure that

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they're prepared. There's also a real innocence too about pregnancy

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and that bubble and sort of and you want people

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to have that you or people to be able to

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enjoy the innocence of their first pregnancy. And because you

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know that it's tough and you know that on the

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other side there will be challenges, and so I like

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all so just to be there, be the safe in it,

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be there when those challenges happen, because you know, inevitably

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it's much harder than people expect. So yeah, having those conversations,

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but being there when it's when it's hard, and not

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being like I told you, so you know, this is

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what I want you, not being negative, but just going yeah,

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it is really really hard, and I'm here for you

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because I know what it's like and that empathy.

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So true, so true, because I think that's what we

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all need. When did you realize that something was really

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wrong after you had your baby?

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I think there's just two points to that, because I think,

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I mean, I know now retrospectively that the first psychotic

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symptoms would have been about four days postpartum, and that

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was around the nappy rash. And yeah, so a little

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I guess a little bit of context around that was

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we mentioned working both working in sharp protection, and I

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had worked in frontline and with families and had taken

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ordered into care, and there was particular case where the

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baby had a bit of a nappy rash. And for

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whatever reason, that's settled somewhere in my brain. As these

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cases have, you know, can can do as you would know,

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and yeah, when four days postparted we had a bit

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of a nappy rash that sort of triggered these delusional

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thoughts that the department or that Child Protection were going

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to come and take him. Slowly became convinced that that

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child Protection, We're going to come and remove him on

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account of this tiny, very normal rash. And then, yeah,

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I began experiencing other symptoms, hallucinations. I thought that I

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had died, and I had this strong sense of being

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dead and not existing, and then being stuck on this

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loop of thought that if I was dead already, then

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if I then took my own life, that it wouldn't

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matter because I'd never rested anyway. But even then, I mean,

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these were obviously very distressing and strange thoughts and experiences,

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but it really wasn't until I was probably about six

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months postpartum, where you know, it was really obvious to

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everyone else around me physically, but I wasn't well, and

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that sort of then prompted me actually going and seeking help.

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But yeah, it was much sort of further down the

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chucks and that it should have been. It really went

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undetected for a long time.

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Yeah, even though what you experienced, like we said in

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the beginning, was quite extreme, Like the rate of women

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who experience post aatal psychosis is very rare, but many

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more women will experience depression anxiety. But I think would

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have a similar story of it going undetected for a

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really long time. So why is that? Why do so

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many women kind of fall through the cracks?

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Yeah, it's a really interesting question. I think there's still

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a lot of stigma around maternal mental illness, and you know,

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we have that miss of wanting to be the perfect

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mother and that bliss and joy and for anything less

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than that makes a lot of women feel like they're failing.

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And I think social media doesn't help with that either.

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And so yeah, I think people see a lot of

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women see needing to seek help as a failure, as

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a personal failing. I think you look around and often

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you go to a mother's group and you look around

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and everyone else seems to be coping and often times

228
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they're old struggling as well, but everyone's putting on a face. Yeah,

229
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for a lot of women, there is just that sense

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of saying and stigma and not wanting to feel that

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they've failed as a mother. And that's something It makes

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me very sad to think that women would be suffering

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in silence for fear of being judged.

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Same same And I gree I completely agree that there

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is this sense of shame. And I think we you're right,

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we see what we think is everybody else coping. Everybody

237
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else is doing it okay, and it's just me, so

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I don't want to admit that there's a problem. I actually,

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as you were talking then, was remembering that when I

240
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spoke to my GP, I think I was in tears

241
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yet again in the GP office.

242
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And relatable, relatable.

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And then and her suggesting to me very gently she

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thought that I might have postatal depression, and me saying, oh, no,

245
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I'm fine. I'm just having a bad day, like my

246
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husband's away this week, so or I'm just she just

247
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didn't the baby didn't sleep last night.

248
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I'm just tired.

249
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I always had a reason, yeah why this This was

250
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not an issue. It was just I was just having

251
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a bad day. And do you know, it wasn't until

252
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years later when I was actually training in perinatal mental health,

253
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because that, interestingly, that's where I chose to go and

254
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focus my clinical work after I got reagisled. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

255
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it was I learned for the first time that this

256
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is a this is characteristic of post antal depression, this

257
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up and down of the mood and these good days

258
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and bad days, which I hadn't realized at the time.

259
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I just thought I was a bad day. So I

260
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tell women that all the time.

261
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Now.

262
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The up and down nature of it is the illness.

263
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In Racci EXACTI and I think also as well, you

264
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do you manage to kind of draw together. That's that

265
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you go into survival mode. And because you basically you're

266
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having to look after this little person and to meet

267
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their needs, so you do seem to be able to

268
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pull it together your resources and keep going. And that

269
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can also make it feel like, yeah, there are days

270
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and you're feeling not too bad, and in other days

271
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when you're just miserable, and yeah, people think, well, maybe

272
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I can't be depressed if you know, I'm still able

273
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to do we still have to function to a degree.

274
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But yeah, as we know that it's very sad.

275
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Yeah it is, it is. And you know what else

276
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I was reminded so much of all of this when

277
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I was reading your book. It's the people around you too,

278
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who can be quite dismissive, even if you say, like

279
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I'm really struggling, Oh it'll pass, Oh this time is.

280
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Short, this part of having a baby.

281
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It is lucky they're cute, isn't it lucky they're cute?

282
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I mean, I was dying and people didn't seem to

283
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get it. So this is why I think it is

284
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so important the work that you're doing now and in

285
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the book that you've written, like, it is so important

286
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for people to understand it, to actually listen and maybe

287
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ask more questions or maybe.

288
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Think to what is it before? I mean, it takes

289
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so much to actually be honest. So if someone has actually,

290
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you know, brought themselves to the point where they've said

291
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I'm struggling, I'm feeling a bit anxious, and then to

292
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be consolutely dismissed, wish down, because it takes so much.

293
00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:05.279
Sometimes it doesn't it to actually start to open up,

294
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and then you think like they try and need I

295
00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:12.440
felt ignored or blistled or why would your bother asking

296
00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:15.919
for help again? So yeah, we do really need to

297
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be really really mindful of the language that we're using

298
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and how we're responding to new parents in our lives

299
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because the act of actually asking for help or admitting the.

300
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Meeting that you're struggling exactly, it's huge. Aron we mentioned

301
00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:33.200
before about the feelings of shame and feeling like a

302
00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:35.440
failure when you know, well, everybody has a baby and

303
00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:38.039
everybody else seems to be coping. Fine, how was that

304
00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:41.039
exacerbated by the fact that you're a psychologist? And I

305
00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:44.480
asked this quest as a psychologist myself, but I wasn't

306
00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:46.240
registered at the time I had my baby. But there

307
00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:48.600
are many psychologists who listen to this podcast as well,

308
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so I am. I think those of us with professional

309
00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:56.720
training can feel extra shame and extra pressure to have

310
00:16:56.799 --> 00:17:01.120
it together because of our professional training. It was that your.

311
00:17:01.039 --> 00:17:05.400
Experience, Yes, absolutely, so that was definitely one of the

312
00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:09.759
big barriers in terms of yeah, seeking health. So you know,

313
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I talked about the stigma of being a mum with

314
00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:14.000
a mental illness, but then you add the stigma of

315
00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:18.240
being a mental health professional with mental illness, and yeah,

316
00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:21.559
that was, just, like you said, another complete layer of shame.

317
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I was nearly registered, and I was really concerned that

318
00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:31.279
if I am too honest about you know, how bad

319
00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:35.519
things are, that they might take away my registration, my

320
00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:39.440
ability to practice. What will my colleagues think of me?

321
00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:43.319
What would what would this mean? Yeah, for my work

322
00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:48.240
and my career, And so yeah, that that really meant

323
00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:51.519
that I, yes, I got a lot longer than I

324
00:17:51.559 --> 00:17:55.160
wish I had. But also then being admitted to them

325
00:17:55.200 --> 00:18:00.200
being admitted to hospital. Being on the other side of yeah, yeah,

326
00:18:01.240 --> 00:18:04.839
the whole experience and being the one who was being

327
00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:09.359
assessed and observed was really humbling. It was it was really,

328
00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:11.680
it was really tough. And again it just felt to

329
00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:15.960
me like absolute rock bottom that I had ended up there.

330
00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:18.960
But I think as well, there was also the challenge

331
00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:23.039
of I knew the language. I knew what to say

332
00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:26.640
and what not to say, what not to reveal, and

333
00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:29.960
I knew what measure you know, what to circle on

334
00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:33.680
the measures. So I wasn't you know, completely honest, I

335
00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:36.960
think about exactly how bad things were because I knew,

336
00:18:37.079 --> 00:18:41.599
I knew what I was doing. So here it definitely

337
00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:42.119
was tough.

338
00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:46.720
Yeah. You talk about being admitted voluntarily initially to the

339
00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:49.400
mother and baby unit, so your body was held about

340
00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:50.440
eight months?

341
00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:53.079
Yeah, I don't nine month's postpart of yeah.

342
00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:56.839
Yeah yeah, And I would love for you to share

343
00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:06.200
your experience, I mean about it without therapy.

344
00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:13.160
Oh man, I'm sorry. I did not want to do so.

345
00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:15.680
I when they asked the names that have said, oh

346
00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:18.400
you need to you need to come into hospool and

347
00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:21.880
I was so liked it. But the thing of all things,

348
00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:24.200
the thing that I was most concerned about was that

349
00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:26.680
they were going to make me do ourt therapy, to

350
00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:28.759
the point that one of the chapters in my book

351
00:19:28.759 --> 00:19:31.680
pain ends up calling you know, if they make me

352
00:19:31.759 --> 00:19:35.559
do art therapy. But yeah, I just I don't know

353
00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:37.920
what it was about. Yeah, but I was absolutely no

354
00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:39.880
one was going to make me pick up you know,

355
00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:45.720
glues and pens and paint brushes. There's no no way. Yeah,

356
00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:47.599
of course they did make me do our therapy, and

357
00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:50.599
Lily and I didn't mind it. It was actually it was

358
00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:58.240
quite therapeutic. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, the system works, but no,

359
00:19:58.359 --> 00:20:00.920
I was. I was. I was a very cal patients

360
00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:07.599
and yes, I really did not want to Llerian do

361
00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:11.759
any painting or I was there, where's where's the evidence

362
00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:15.000
based for this? You know? This is just what do

363
00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:15.400
you mean?

364
00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:19.559
I know it was so funny taking a screenshot of

365
00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:21.960
like the art therapy schedule on the wall to send

366
00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:24.519
to your husband. They're going to make me do therapy.

367
00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:28.039
Every fucking day, and he said, He's like, this is

368
00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:30.759
the times that the art therapy room is open and

369
00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:33.880
available for youse. It's not the time so you expected

370
00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:40.680
to be doing therapy and oh gosh, okay, well still.

371
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:45.759
In hindsight, are like, in hindsight, as much as you

372
00:20:46.279 --> 00:20:49.480
were a difficult patient and you know you didn't want

373
00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:51.720
to do the things and you broke all the rules,

374
00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:56.119
what was good about that experience for women listening who

375
00:20:56.240 --> 00:20:58.640
might be thinking do I need? Would it be helpful?

376
00:20:58.720 --> 00:20:58.799
Like?

377
00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:00.400
What was what was good about out.

378
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.799
That for you? Oh? Look, I'm such a huge advocate

379
00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:07.640
for mother baby units. I think they save lives and

380
00:21:08.119 --> 00:21:12.359
they are crucial for you know that that attachment bonding,

381
00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:16.000
and we know that it's best practice if you can

382
00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:21.039
be admitted with your baby for treatment. Obviously here in

383
00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:25.440
Australia there aren't enough of them, but certainly compared to

384
00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:28.319
the rest of the world, we're doing not too badly

385
00:21:28.359 --> 00:21:32.759
on that fronts always too better. No, I think what's

386
00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:36.240
so great about them is it provides this sort of

387
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:39.240
bubble from the world in a way. So you go

388
00:21:39.319 --> 00:21:46.000
in and you've got access to psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers,

389
00:21:46.759 --> 00:21:50.160
you do group therapy, which is really beneficial. A lot

390
00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:55.559
of women find that doing those BBT strategies and mindfulness,

391
00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:58.480
learning about some of the myths of motherhood and kind

392
00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:02.079
of talking about lived experience and listening to other people's

393
00:22:02.119 --> 00:22:04.640
experience and being with other people who are going through

394
00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:07.960
something similar is a really powerful part of recovery for

395
00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:11.200
a lot of women. And just having that, you know,

396
00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:14.319
that break from a little bit of sort of protection

397
00:22:14.519 --> 00:22:18.079
from the world. You're in there obviously you don't have

398
00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:21.759
to cook and clean and which is you know, a

399
00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:26.759
huge kind of yeah, respite when you're really really struggling.

400
00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:31.079
There are people there to help with the mothercraft's skills,

401
00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:34.119
so helping you with breastfeeding and sleeping and settling if

402
00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:36.359
you've got a really young bub or even if you've

403
00:22:36.359 --> 00:22:39.480
got an older above when you've had challenges with sleep.

404
00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:43.240
So I think it's just a really good opportunity again

405
00:22:43.279 --> 00:22:46.000
to get medication and get it that sort and a

406
00:22:46.039 --> 00:22:48.680
lot of women go in and that's something that you

407
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:51.759
can really work out with the best combination of ment

408
00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:54.519
are and in a safe environment where you're able to

409
00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:57.799
work through some of those side effects or taper off

410
00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:02.400
one medication to come onto something else under supervision rather

411
00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:05.400
than doing out in the community by yourself. Yeah. So,

412
00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:09.319
moch I'm such a huge advocate for these ambius and

413
00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:12.440
I think, yeah, I think part of why I wanted

414
00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:14.720
to write the book and Obviously I do joke about

415
00:23:14.920 --> 00:23:17.799
and I was a terrible patient, but it was to

416
00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:20.079
kind of demystify what it's like to be on a

417
00:23:20.079 --> 00:23:23.240
psychiatric ward. And I think so many of us were

418
00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:26.400
sort of watching Girl Girl Interrupted or you know those

419
00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:29.519
Jack Nicholson Milk movie and it's not you know that,

420
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:32.559
it's not like that at all, And they really are

421
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:36.200
quite quite wonderful places for women who need that help

422
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:39.480
and support. So yeah, big, big big advocate, big supporter

423
00:23:39.799 --> 00:23:44.279
of parenting for mother baby, and even art therapy. Even

424
00:23:44.680 --> 00:23:46.960
in the end, even I was even doing my collars,

425
00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:49.079
I did my collage, and I was very I was

426
00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:52.839
a very very part of my master my psychiatric ward masterpiece.

427
00:23:57.079 --> 00:23:59.880
You've just mentioned medication. Then when I went to work

428
00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:02.200
in private practice, and a big part of my caseload

429
00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:05.720
was women during the perinatal period, either post natally or

430
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:09.759
some of them pregnant, had a history of anxiety depression,

431
00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:11.559
and some of them actually ended up coming back to me,

432
00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:15.240
like for their second pregnant, Like after I'd seen them

433
00:24:15.240 --> 00:24:17.000
with their first, they came back for their second. And

434
00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:21.279
for many women, there was this strong reluctance to take

435
00:24:21.319 --> 00:24:25.119
medication for fear of what it might do to the baby,

436
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:28.039
for fear of getting hooked on it not being able

437
00:24:28.039 --> 00:24:31.039
to come off it. I would love to hear what

438
00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:34.400
your experience was with medication, and I would start by

439
00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:36.480
saying that for many of the women who I worked

440
00:24:36.519 --> 00:24:40.319
with who eventually decided to go down that path, the

441
00:24:40.359 --> 00:24:42.400
most common thing I heard from them was I wish

442
00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:43.240
that I had started.

443
00:24:43.720 --> 00:24:46.079
I wish I'd done it sooner. Yeah, I wish i'd

444
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:46.759
done it earlier.

445
00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:48.799
I wish I had known that I didn't have to

446
00:24:48.839 --> 00:24:52.279
struggle for so long, like what I had forced myself

447
00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:54.000
to struggle and make it harder than it needed to

448
00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:57.240
be for such a long time. So, but it can.

449
00:24:57.400 --> 00:25:00.359
Medication has different effects on different people, Like some people

450
00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:02.480
don't respond to every medication. So I'd love to hear

451
00:25:02.519 --> 00:25:06.319
your experience of that of working through Yeah.

452
00:25:06.279 --> 00:25:10.359
Those those challenges. So yeah, I mean it took me.

453
00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:14.920
So most people were initially prescribed, and SSRI seems that

454
00:25:15.079 --> 00:25:19.160
primary as a primary first line treatment. So I started

455
00:25:19.160 --> 00:25:23.640
on I think it was solar and yeah, it really

456
00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:26.839
just didn't. It didn't respond to particularly well. I had

457
00:25:26.920 --> 00:25:33.599
some quite severe side effects, a lot of agitation and death. Yeah, nauseier,

458
00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:37.039
and yeah, and it just didn't really seem to be

459
00:25:37.079 --> 00:25:41.279
doing much at all, and then in a hospital tape

460
00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:44.640
it off that and had some really severe side effects

461
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:47.680
with drawings from it, so really sort of like you know,

462
00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:50.400
brain shocks and that I would feel through my whole body,

463
00:25:50.920 --> 00:25:54.519
and so tapering from the medication was quite distressing. And

464
00:25:54.559 --> 00:25:57.359
then again tried a different type of anti depressant that

465
00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:00.799
had a really sedating effect, so it made very drowsy,

466
00:26:01.079 --> 00:26:03.680
which meant that I couldn't really get up overnight to

467
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:08.720
attend to the baby, and so that that again wasn't

468
00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:11.839
one that I could take long term. Came off that one,

469
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:15.680
and he tried another ssr I which seemed to have

470
00:26:15.799 --> 00:26:18.559
a much to cleaner so I fired slider face profile

471
00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:24.799
and then eventually added a mood stabilizer and an anti

472
00:26:24.920 --> 00:26:27.200
small dose of an anti psychotic as well, mainly for

473
00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:32.279
sleep at that point. But yeah, getting that mix right

474
00:26:33.160 --> 00:26:38.960
definitely took some time and perseverance and tapering ut tapering down. Yeah,

475
00:26:39.240 --> 00:26:43.039
it was really challenging and really distressing because it's and

476
00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:45.599
then as you would know from your own practice, it's

477
00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:49.079
everybody sort of responds differently, as you said earlier, and

478
00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:54.359
it's not a simple It's why it's very difficult. It's

479
00:26:54.359 --> 00:26:57.240
more of an art.

480
00:26:56.200 --> 00:26:58.599
Yeah, exactly. And I think it's just so important for

481
00:26:58.599 --> 00:27:01.640
people to know that. And as you're talking, I'm remembering

482
00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:03.279
that because it's been quite a while since I was,

483
00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:06.559
you know, doing private practice in Brisbane, and I remember

484
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:09.839
having a series of women like over time, who were

485
00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:13.359
all having a similar response to one particular medication. I

486
00:27:13.400 --> 00:27:15.240
can't remember what it was. Maybe it was zole often

487
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:18.480
it made them, gave them insomnia, or it made them

488
00:27:18.519 --> 00:27:20.680
sleep too, I don't I think it was insomnia. And

489
00:27:20.839 --> 00:27:24.759
it was interesting for me as a psychologist who is

490
00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:28.000
not a doctor. I don't prescribe medication, but to hear

491
00:27:28.039 --> 00:27:31.680
from multiple different women having the same experience that I

492
00:27:31.720 --> 00:27:35.359
could then say to my client, oh, that's actually quite common,

493
00:27:35.480 --> 00:27:38.240
go back and get that reviewed, and for them just

494
00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:42.240
the relief of knowing it's not just me, it's not

495
00:27:42.319 --> 00:27:42.599
just me.

496
00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:46.119
There are other options as well. There are other options. Yeah,

497
00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:48.720
so if one medication doesn't work for you, or you

498
00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:52.119
do have side effects that are intolerable, that that's not

499
00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:53.960
the end of the road. There are other options and

500
00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:57.440
that you can continue to find the right sort of

501
00:27:57.480 --> 00:28:01.000
dose and yeah, fatigue to hear that.

502
00:28:01.720 --> 00:28:04.680
Yeah, and it felt like I mean if it felt

503
00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:06.640
like apart from any therapy work, just being in a

504
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:09.160
position to be able to say to women, oh, you're

505
00:28:09.160 --> 00:28:11.279
not alone in this, like this is this happens to

506
00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:14.240
like I've had this many other client who've had the

507
00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:17.039
same experience. There is just something so reassuring about that.

508
00:28:17.079 --> 00:28:19.839
And I think that's one really nice thing about having

509
00:28:19.880 --> 00:28:22.759
a therapist who works in this space. I mean you

510
00:28:22.759 --> 00:28:23.839
would know this as well.

511
00:28:23.720 --> 00:28:27.720
Like so important, so important. Yeah, that perinatal expertise. And

512
00:28:27.799 --> 00:28:30.160
I always say that to people if you're looking for

513
00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:33.960
a clinician, you really you know, if you can someone

514
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:36.559
who's got that training and that specific expertise in the

515
00:28:36.599 --> 00:28:40.079
perinatal space, as you would know it's so important.

516
00:28:40.599 --> 00:28:43.640
I had many a client come to me and the

517
00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:46.319
first question they asked me was do you have children

518
00:28:46.400 --> 00:28:49.319
or have you had a baby, because I've been to

519
00:28:49.480 --> 00:28:51.319
and I would say, well, yeah, I do. And I

520
00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:54.480
had my own struggles because I've been to another psychologist

521
00:28:54.880 --> 00:28:57.799
who didn't have children, and they just didn't get it,

522
00:28:57.960 --> 00:28:59.839
Like for all of their clinical training and for all

523
00:28:59.880 --> 00:29:04.440
of their best intentions, you don't get it unless you've

524
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:06.759
had a baby. And I actually one hundred percent agree

525
00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:07.039
with that.

526
00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:10.319
I do too. I do too. And it's interesting. I mean,

527
00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:12.640
in the book, I talk a little bit about being

528
00:29:13.319 --> 00:29:16.920
going to a psychiatrist initially who was just completely the

529
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:20.519
wrong fit for me at that time. Again, very good clinician,

530
00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:24.720
highly recommended, but I think it was just don't I

531
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:26.640
don't want to sit, you know, like I was. So

532
00:29:26.759 --> 00:29:29.640
I was newly postpartum, and it was that similar thing

533
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:31.720
if you might have kids, but you've never been a mother,

534
00:29:31.880 --> 00:29:34.960
you've never breasted, you've never given birth, and so that

535
00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:37.079
at whatever point at that moment in my life, I

536
00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:39.119
did not want it. If I did not want him

537
00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:40.960
to be the one to I did not feel like

538
00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:42.240
he was the one who was going to be able

539
00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:44.240
to help me at that point. And I think that's

540
00:29:44.359 --> 00:29:48.759
that's actually not uncommon. We do often seek someone who

541
00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:51.680
has been through even if it's not the lived experiences

542
00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:57.000
of the perinatal illness, but just the experience of parenting,

543
00:29:57.640 --> 00:30:00.400
being a mom and understanding that can be really bought

544
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:01.279
it for a lot of women.

545
00:30:01.720 --> 00:30:06.000
Yeah, you speak very fondly about your psychiatrist who you

546
00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:09.599
eventually came to form a relationship with who you've still

547
00:30:09.599 --> 00:30:11.599
see today. I understand.

548
00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:15.160
Yes, Yeah, twelve years later, we're still together.

549
00:30:16.519 --> 00:30:17.160
I love that.

550
00:30:17.240 --> 00:30:19.640
I always joke about that, perhaps she's the second longest

551
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:23.440
relationship of my life after my marriage.

552
00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:27.400
I love that is the best. And she was so foundational.

553
00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:30.200
It sounds like, you know, to your recovery and through

554
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:32.480
helping you to navigate all of the various things that

555
00:30:32.519 --> 00:30:34.039
you tried and that you did and what worked and

556
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:38.319
what didn't work for you in hindsight, what was it

557
00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:41.720
that you really needed? Like, what was the difference that

558
00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:43.920
kind of made the difference to you?

559
00:30:44.599 --> 00:30:47.160
What was it about her that kind of really yeah,

560
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:50.359
what was What did she do? I think it's a

561
00:30:50.400 --> 00:30:53.839
really it's a good question because we didn't I didn't

562
00:30:53.839 --> 00:30:56.680
want to her straight away, you know, she and we

563
00:30:57.079 --> 00:30:59.920
laugh about that now that she really had to work

564
00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:03.359
to sort of build my trust, and I think she

565
00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:09.400
realized that, Yeah, I was reluctant to be in the room,

566
00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:12.000
and I was reluctant to do any kind of like

567
00:31:12.039 --> 00:31:14.359
a therapeutic work. I just wanted to get better. I

568
00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:17.440
just wanted the medication by that point and her sign

569
00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:18.839
off so that I could go back to work and

570
00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:21.400
get on with my life as after I'd been released

571
00:31:21.400 --> 00:31:24.039
from hospital. And I think what she did was she

572
00:31:24.119 --> 00:31:27.240
sort of met me halfway. She didn't completely sort of

573
00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:31.279
enable me just to hear, your medication, off you go,

574
00:31:31.359 --> 00:31:34.720
you'll be fine, But she also didn't sort of say, no,

575
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:36.799
you can't go back to work, No, you need to

576
00:31:36.799 --> 00:31:39.200
do this, you need to Yeah, so she sort of

577
00:31:39.240 --> 00:31:41.759
met me halfway, and at that point it was Okay,

578
00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:44.640
you want to come off medication, let's try that and

579
00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:47.279
we'll see how you go. And you want to go

580
00:31:47.319 --> 00:31:49.119
back to work, Okay, let's go back to work. You

581
00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:51.000
can go back to work a couple of days a week,

582
00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:53.920
no clinical work again, We'll just see how you go.

583
00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:56.400
And we've since laughed about the fact that she knew

584
00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:59.160
that in both occasions, that I did need to go

585
00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:02.039
back on medication and that going back to work was

586
00:32:02.119 --> 00:32:05.119
not writing for me at that time. But I needed

587
00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:08.759
to do that myself and I needed to experience that

588
00:32:09.160 --> 00:32:11.119
and then to be able to come back to her

589
00:32:11.119 --> 00:32:15.240
and go, Okay, you were right, I get it now,

590
00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:18.480
and let's get me better and I can put that

591
00:32:18.519 --> 00:32:21.039
trust in you that you know what you're doing. But yeah,

592
00:32:21.079 --> 00:32:23.279
I think you do need to mean so much. The

593
00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:25.319
work that you know you do as well is about

594
00:32:25.319 --> 00:32:28.680
building that rapport, building that relationship, building that trust so

595
00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:30.559
that women feel that they are able to come in

596
00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:34.359
and be completely authentic with you and be their true cell.

597
00:32:35.240 --> 00:32:39.960
And that takes time and it takes skill. And yeah,

598
00:32:40.039 --> 00:32:42.920
I was very lucky that he was able to sort

599
00:32:42.920 --> 00:32:45.359
of spit with me and that pain and sit in

600
00:32:45.559 --> 00:32:48.400
the uncertainty of not knowing how long it would take

601
00:32:48.519 --> 00:32:51.759
to feel better and to get well. And yeah, that

602
00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:55.839
I felt she knew exactly what she was doing. And yeah,

603
00:32:55.960 --> 00:33:00.599
she was she was very special special.

604
00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:03.319
Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm hearing you say that

605
00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:07.920
she was really respectful of you and that she empowered you,

606
00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:09.680
you know, to feel like you, to give you a

607
00:33:09.720 --> 00:33:13.720
sense of agency very much. So yeah, and also just

608
00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:15.640
that she held the space for you. And when I

609
00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:17.359
read that in your book, I thought, because there are

610
00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:19.680
many times during my work and I haven't done that

611
00:33:19.720 --> 00:33:21.279
work for you know, for a few years now, but

612
00:33:21.559 --> 00:33:23.319
there were many times during my work that I really

613
00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:25.640
questioned whether I was having any positive impact because I

614
00:33:25.640 --> 00:33:27.559
can't go into your house and get your baby to sleep,

615
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:29.640
like I can't be there when you're at four in

616
00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:33.039
the morning. But hearing you say that, just being in

617
00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:36.200
that space, feeling held, like feeling that there was somewhere

618
00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:37.759
that you could just go and you could just be,

619
00:33:37.960 --> 00:33:41.559
I thought, oh, okay, so maybe maybe I did, Maybe

620
00:33:41.559 --> 00:33:41.920
I didn't.

621
00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:47.200
That beautiful. No, definitely, and I think that that beautiful

622
00:33:47.279 --> 00:33:50.920
Karen clim and her work around here. What it means

623
00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:55.359
to holding women in distress and holding women in that

624
00:33:55.759 --> 00:33:57.960
perinde or ceriod and so much about it is that

625
00:33:58.079 --> 00:34:00.279
kind of we we spend so much time home holding

626
00:34:00.279 --> 00:34:03.240
the baby and so you know, being held in that

627
00:34:03.400 --> 00:34:07.119
space and you're adding someone sit with you and then

628
00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:09.320
not try and fix everything and rush in because we

629
00:34:09.400 --> 00:34:11.920
know that that's like you said, you Frank, You're not

630
00:34:11.960 --> 00:34:14.400
there holding the baby at four am. You're not there

631
00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:16.320
in the house when everything's all over the place and

632
00:34:16.360 --> 00:34:19.679
you've got vomit on you. But it is that that's yeah,

633
00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:23.519
that space and literally holding that space for someone once

634
00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:26.840
leave for once a fortnight or whatever it is. And yeah,

635
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:29.880
it does. It makes such a difference, it does, It

636
00:34:29.920 --> 00:34:31.880
really does. Is it very powerful.

637
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:35.880
What really is striking is you know how little support,

638
00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:40.400
how little support we offer to women when they become mothers,

639
00:34:40.480 --> 00:34:41.920
Like it's just oh, you have a baby, and you

640
00:34:41.960 --> 00:34:44.280
come out and you take your maternity leave, and it

641
00:34:44.360 --> 00:34:48.119
is just not enough, and that this is the work

642
00:34:48.119 --> 00:34:50.320
that you're doing now, right, Like there is so much

643
00:34:50.360 --> 00:34:52.360
work that we need to do as a society to

644
00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:56.840
better support women during the transition to motherhood.

645
00:34:57.639 --> 00:35:01.639
Yeah, definitely, Yeah, it's really there's so much. Like you said,

646
00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:04.199
it's almost like we we set women up to fail

647
00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:08.800
in many ways, and that's around women being discharged from

648
00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:13.000
the hospital very soon and not so not feeling like

649
00:35:13.039 --> 00:35:17.960
they are supported to establish breastceeding, not having that continuity

650
00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:21.280
of care throughout their pregnancy. And I had a really

651
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:24.480
interesting discussion with a midwife the other day who was

652
00:35:24.519 --> 00:35:29.079
saying she feels that if women have that continuity of care,

653
00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:31.360
then by the time they can get into that barely

654
00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:35.760
postpartum period they've had they've established that relationship with the midwife,

655
00:35:35.800 --> 00:35:38.840
So if they're not feeling quite right, that relationship is

656
00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:42.599
there and they feel more confident about disclosing. Whereas if

657
00:35:42.599 --> 00:35:45.119
you're in a system where you're seeing different people at

658
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:48.440
different appointments and so you don't have that continuity, it

659
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:50.800
can be much more difficult than if you are struggling

660
00:35:51.079 --> 00:35:54.559
at the other end to disclose to someone you've not

661
00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:59.800
spoken to before or complete strengder. So yeah, and as

662
00:35:59.800 --> 00:36:04.159
think also without eternity, leaves often not enough, so your

663
00:36:04.199 --> 00:36:07.599
partner's going back to work, often after only one or

664
00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:12.000
two weeks of leave, and so yeah, you've sort of

665
00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:14.280
go at home and you're still recovering, and you're trying

666
00:36:14.280 --> 00:36:17.199
to work out to be a mother, and you're on

667
00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:22.440
your own. And yeah, so many of us have busy

668
00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:25.800
lives and now our parents are often still working or

669
00:36:26.199 --> 00:36:29.239
they're not necessarily around to be as hands on as

670
00:36:29.320 --> 00:36:34.039
sometimes people expected. And yeah, you can feel really really alone,

671
00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:37.119
and it's a really difficult time, very isolating time.

672
00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:40.239
Very Ah. I just remember the first day that my

673
00:36:40.280 --> 00:36:42.239
husband went back to work. It's like when you walked

674
00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:43.280
out and shut the door.

675
00:36:43.719 --> 00:36:47.400
It was the door, the door shouts you. Now now

676
00:36:47.559 --> 00:36:50.880
I'm on my own? Is this sweet? And and you

677
00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:53.960
feel you also feel like that I was such a capable,

678
00:36:54.079 --> 00:36:58.880
competent person. Ah, and now I'm just completely incompetent. I

679
00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:02.760
don't know what I'm doing. And yeah, it's really tough

680
00:37:02.800 --> 00:37:05.039
and for a lot of women who've worked and then

681
00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:09.800
professional and have children later. Let's just talk Like last week,

682
00:37:09.880 --> 00:37:12.519
I was sitting in a boardroom and today I'm at

683
00:37:12.519 --> 00:37:15.199
home and I'm crying because I can't get this little

684
00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:19.400
person to sleep. And yeah, so it's real, a real

685
00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:21.800
shift at a lot of way struggling.

686
00:37:22.519 --> 00:37:25.440
It is. It is tough. It is tough around There

687
00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:29.000
are certain factors that we know kind of will predispose

688
00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:35.159
women to potentially experiencing mood disorders, anxiety, you know, post

689
00:37:35.239 --> 00:37:38.159
Natalie and I remember, you know, like if you've had

690
00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:39.920
a mental illness in the past, Like if you've been

691
00:37:39.960 --> 00:37:42.159
depressed in the past, you're more likely. If you've got

692
00:37:42.159 --> 00:37:45.320
no family support, you know, you're more likely. It's really

693
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:50.199
interested in your story. You're talking about the experience of

694
00:37:50.920 --> 00:37:53.199
the impact of being a dance, of being a ballet

695
00:37:53.360 --> 00:37:57.480
dancer and having issues around perfectionism and body image. I

696
00:37:57.480 --> 00:38:00.679
would love for you to talk a little about really.

697
00:38:01.880 --> 00:38:05.320
Yeah, you know, it's been really interesting having released the

698
00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:08.559
book and how many people have been able to relate

699
00:38:08.639 --> 00:38:14.119
to that aspect. I spoke at a literally festival a

700
00:38:14.199 --> 00:38:16.920
couple of weeks ago, and when I was talking about

701
00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:19.360
that aspect, and I said something about you know, I

702
00:38:19.440 --> 00:38:22.719
knew the steps, I knew the choreography of motherhood, and

703
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:26.239
I was able to perform it on command. And then

704
00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:28.199
a woman came out and said, said, oh my gosh,

705
00:38:28.239 --> 00:38:30.760
you know those words. I knew the steps too, I

706
00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:34.039
performed I knew the steps. So I think for me,

707
00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:39.000
I wanted to be a ballerina and so trained to

708
00:38:39.079 --> 00:38:44.239
quite an elite level through my teenage years. And yeah,

709
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:47.519
I think the dream kind of died because I stopped growing.

710
00:38:47.559 --> 00:38:50.679
I was too short and five for one, and to

711
00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:54.159
be a dancer, you sort of you often think about

712
00:38:54.199 --> 00:38:56.760
the very specific sort of body's fight, but also there's

713
00:38:57.000 --> 00:38:59.559
very specific sort of hypes and aesthetic as well. And

714
00:38:59.559 --> 00:39:02.320
at that's time with the preference was definitely for sort

715
00:39:02.360 --> 00:39:05.800
of longer, leaner dances, and that just wasn't me. And

716
00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:09.039
so yeah, you know, as you can imagine you, I

717
00:39:09.159 --> 00:39:12.119
wasn't the aesthetica dealer. I tried to be that and

718
00:39:12.840 --> 00:39:16.840
had all kinds of yeah, terrible body amis and disordered

719
00:39:16.840 --> 00:39:20.039
eating to try and sort of bend myself and get

720
00:39:20.039 --> 00:39:22.880
myself into the shape that I thought I wanted to

721
00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:28.360
thought I should be. And yeah, once I stopped stop dancing.

722
00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:31.519
I sort of thought that that part of my life

723
00:39:31.840 --> 00:39:36.559
was behind me, but it was actually being the experience

724
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:40.760
of being pregnant and my body changing again, of being

725
00:39:40.840 --> 00:39:46.880
wait so wait in the obstetricians office, having those numbers

726
00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:49.800
recorded each week, watching the numbers go up so for

727
00:39:49.800 --> 00:39:52.639
the first time, really because I'd always been small and

728
00:39:53.400 --> 00:39:55.599
always when I was unwell, with all the opposite, so

729
00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:58.840
watching the numbers go up was very strained and quite stressing.

730
00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:04.440
And yeah, does that almost parallel A lot of parallels

731
00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:07.440
between what it was like to be a young dancer

732
00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:10.760
and to have your body scrutinized and co frauded and

733
00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:15.800
commented on, and then being a pregnant woman and again

734
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:18.960
society feels that that's the time where they're able to

735
00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:22.320
comment on the size of your bump or where you're

736
00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:26.480
carrying your weight or you know, and how you look

737
00:40:26.599 --> 00:40:29.679
and suddenly, yeah, it's sort of acceptable to comment again.

738
00:40:30.519 --> 00:40:33.480
And so I found that those parallels really really similar,

739
00:40:33.519 --> 00:40:37.000
and again really struggled with the way that my body

740
00:40:37.039 --> 00:40:39.880
was changing and the difference or how I felt in

741
00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:43.960
my body. And I think the other interesting aspect of

742
00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:46.360
being a dancer, and that is, you know, we know

743
00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:50.639
that perinatal mental health or illness is linked to perfectionism,

744
00:40:50.719 --> 00:40:54.239
and so if you're a perfectionist, then again that's a

745
00:40:54.360 --> 00:40:59.199
risk factor for paranortal mental illness. And perfectionism and ballets

746
00:40:59.239 --> 00:41:02.400
sort of tend to go hand in hand. Ballet is

747
00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:06.000
all about perfection and seeking perfection and knowing that you'll

748
00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:09.000
never be perfect, but always striving to that, and knowing

749
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:11.719
that you'll always fall short, but every day coming back

750
00:41:11.920 --> 00:41:16.840
and continuing to strive for that. And yeah, so yeah,

751
00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:18.519
for so many of us, you sort of have grown

752
00:41:18.599 --> 00:41:21.360
up or grew up training in that way. Being a

753
00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:24.760
perfectionist and motherhood does not go hand in hand. It's obviously,

754
00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:28.280
so why you just can't. It just doesn't. It just

755
00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:31.360
doesn't happen. And yeah, a lot of women really struggle

756
00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:34.800
with that if there've been perfectionists and having to really

757
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:36.679
lower it.

758
00:41:36.800 --> 00:41:39.920
I know that, yeah exactly. And what you said before

759
00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:41.920
about I was confident and capable and I was in

760
00:41:41.960 --> 00:41:44.760
control and suddenly you can't hold onto any of that anymore.

761
00:41:45.079 --> 00:41:46.960
The other thing I thought you said that was so

762
00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:50.719
interesting about being a dancer was this practice stability to

763
00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:53.119
paste on a smile regardless of what was going on

764
00:41:53.599 --> 00:41:54.679
the inside.

765
00:41:54.400 --> 00:41:59.239
Performing, ability to perform, ability to perform, And everybody has

766
00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:02.360
said and still since, but you hit it so well,

767
00:42:02.440 --> 00:42:04.639
you know you you hit it so well. We didn't

768
00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:06.880
know what was going on, And well, like I knew

769
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:08.840
that I knew the steps, I knew how to perform.

770
00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:11.360
I knew when I was in hospital. Again, when we

771
00:42:11.400 --> 00:42:15.719
did the filming, they filmed an interaction with me and baby,

772
00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:18.880
And as you know from your own practice, obviously that's

773
00:42:18.920 --> 00:42:21.440
often used as to a way to sort of help

774
00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:26.039
women understand that growing attachment and the kinds of things

775
00:42:26.039 --> 00:42:28.920
that you can do to develop that. And yeah, I knew,

776
00:42:29.039 --> 00:42:33.000
I knew, I knew the steps. The steps I didn't. Yeah,

777
00:42:33.039 --> 00:42:35.480
but that didn't mean that on the inside, or when

778
00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:37.880
I came off stage or when the camera stopped filming,

779
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:41.360
that I was crumbling. It's just that, Yeah, like with

780
00:42:41.880 --> 00:42:45.679
dance and the performance, with the curtain closes and you

781
00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:49.400
don't see the dancers limping off stage and the blisters

782
00:42:49.480 --> 00:42:53.360
and the sweat and the torn calf muscles. You just

783
00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:57.159
see the beauty and the performance. Everything else is hidden.

784
00:42:57.880 --> 00:43:00.599
So yeah, it was interesting, a little bit boring those

785
00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:05.360
different breads and seeing I think, how Yeah, it was like, yep, Okay,

786
00:43:05.480 --> 00:43:09.039
that's another reason why when I looked back over the

787
00:43:09.119 --> 00:43:13.159
story and those different aspects of my life and history,

788
00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:15.119
it made a lot of sense.

789
00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:16.199
Does it make sense?

790
00:43:16.239 --> 00:43:18.320
That makes sense? Yeah.

791
00:43:18.400 --> 00:43:21.320
And on the flip side of that, though, it was

792
00:43:21.480 --> 00:43:24.239
dancing was one of the things that ultimately kind of

793
00:43:24.280 --> 00:43:26.920
really saved you, brought you back to yourself.

794
00:43:27.639 --> 00:43:30.360
What it did, and going back to ballet and going

795
00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:33.079
back to dance was such a huge turning point, I

796
00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:38.000
think in my recovery. But I think what changed was

797
00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:42.400
the perfection. And I think one aspect, for one concept

798
00:43:42.519 --> 00:43:45.159
that I really learned to appreciate was that idea of

799
00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:50.400
being good enough and good enough mother and going back

800
00:43:50.440 --> 00:43:53.360
to dance and going back to as an adult and

801
00:43:53.440 --> 00:43:56.639
as an adult teacher and teaching other adults. But there's

802
00:43:56.679 --> 00:44:00.639
so much joy in imperfection and in role around, in

803
00:44:00.760 --> 00:44:03.440
not being in not being perfect, and just the joy

804
00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:09.320
of movement and yeah, not necessarily striving for perfection, just

805
00:44:09.360 --> 00:44:12.239
striving for that joy and the joy of movement and

806
00:44:12.559 --> 00:44:16.519
moving to music and e's freshen And yeah, not not

807
00:44:16.639 --> 00:44:19.960
needing to be perfect was something there was a really

808
00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:21.840
I know it sounds really silly, but it was such

809
00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:24.639
a kind of it was a real standing point for me.

810
00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:27.239
It actually doesn't sound silly at all. And what you

811
00:44:27.400 --> 00:44:29.679
just touched on that about Donald Winnicott and his theory

812
00:44:29.679 --> 00:44:32.039
of the good enough mother, it's so simple, but it's

813
00:44:32.079 --> 00:44:34.800
so profound and life changing for many women. I've quote

814
00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:35.639
him all the time as.

815
00:44:35.599 --> 00:44:37.920
Well, all the time. It's a real because it's such

816
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:41.480
an easy not all of his concepts are easy to understand.

817
00:44:41.480 --> 00:44:44.119
That that's one of it is just so so beautiful

818
00:44:44.239 --> 00:44:48.360
and the fact that with motherhood and with parenthoods we

819
00:44:48.559 --> 00:44:52.119
teach out we can't be perfect because the world isn't perfect,

820
00:44:52.159 --> 00:44:55.320
and so by not being perfect, we're helping our kids

821
00:44:55.400 --> 00:44:57.960
understand that, yeah, the world out there is not perfect

822
00:44:58.159 --> 00:45:00.719
as well, and so it's actually it's good not to

823
00:45:00.760 --> 00:45:03.960
be perfect. We're not supposed to be perfect because the

824
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:06.760
world's not perfect. And it's lovely when people can sort

825
00:45:06.760 --> 00:45:09.920
of understand that that there's beauty and in imperfection and

826
00:45:10.199 --> 00:45:13.280
being human and responding in a human way and not

827
00:45:13.719 --> 00:45:15.239
perfect and that's okay.

828
00:45:15.639 --> 00:45:20.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the book, you quote a really

829
00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:25.800
startling statistic that suicide is the third leading cause of

830
00:45:25.880 --> 00:45:29.519
death for women in the perinatal period.

831
00:45:30.199 --> 00:45:34.480
Yeah, in Australia. In Australia, I actually think in the UK,

832
00:45:35.320 --> 00:45:37.239
in the US and the UK it actually maybe the

833
00:45:37.320 --> 00:45:40.920
leading cause of death. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

834
00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:43.679
And while that is shocking, what I found even more

835
00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:49.239
shocking was that they only count the post natal period

836
00:45:49.320 --> 00:45:52.480
as being up to is it six weeks postpartum It's

837
00:45:52.599 --> 00:45:53.079
it's not.

838
00:45:53.039 --> 00:45:57.800
Even yeah yeah, yeah, which is six weeks yeah yeah.

839
00:45:57.719 --> 00:45:59.960
Yeah, it's not a year, it's not two year.

840
00:46:00.119 --> 00:46:02.039
Is that actually really fascinated me.

841
00:46:02.360 --> 00:46:07.519
Yeah, it is probably drastically underrepresented.

842
00:46:06.679 --> 00:46:09.320
Right, Yeah, and we know that from the research. So

843
00:46:09.400 --> 00:46:11.840
Hannah Dalen did some research around that, and I actually

844
00:46:11.920 --> 00:46:14.480
looked at those sort of later maternal deaths and did

845
00:46:14.519 --> 00:46:17.320
find that there was that peak period, I think, that

846
00:46:17.440 --> 00:46:21.360
sort of six to nine month period where yeah, the

847
00:46:21.400 --> 00:46:25.159
services start to taper off and women are returning to

848
00:46:25.280 --> 00:46:29.760
work and there are a lot of other stressors and yeah,

849
00:46:29.800 --> 00:46:33.920
a lot of those sort of early things that are

850
00:46:33.920 --> 00:46:39.320
in place, maternal shod house, senior GP, mother's groups that

851
00:46:39.360 --> 00:46:42.800
all starts to drop off, and that is definitely a risk,

852
00:46:43.159 --> 00:46:46.559
a risk point that we're not capturing. Yeah, that really

853
00:46:46.599 --> 00:46:50.840
really fascinated me. In the research that that's not counted

854
00:46:50.840 --> 00:46:51.360
beyond that.

855
00:46:52.760 --> 00:46:56.239
Yeah, I know, it's astonishing, and I just feel like

856
00:46:56.320 --> 00:47:00.480
that's a really difficult topic, but it's so important for

857
00:47:00.519 --> 00:47:02.719
people to have an understanding of that because I think

858
00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:06.559
we just sometimes will gloss over, even we talk about

859
00:47:06.559 --> 00:47:09.719
the stats around post antal depression, kind of gloss over

860
00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:12.360
it like it's I don't know, I just feel like

861
00:47:12.400 --> 00:47:14.719
it just doesn't get enough attention and we don't realize

862
00:47:14.760 --> 00:47:18.519
necessarily the significance of it. And I have also read

863
00:47:18.559 --> 00:47:20.159
I think this was back when I was in practice,

864
00:47:20.159 --> 00:47:26.280
actually that the peak period for diagnosis of postnatal depression

865
00:47:26.440 --> 00:47:28.880
is four years, Like there's a stat that it's four

866
00:47:29.000 --> 00:47:30.280
years after being.

867
00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:32.760
There was actually a study, there was a study, Australian

868
00:47:32.840 --> 00:47:37.679
study on that, and yeah, that four years is the highest. Yeah,

869
00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:41.159
it was really interesting, really really interesting. I do remember

870
00:47:41.159 --> 00:47:45.000
that and that, yeah, was Stonian research. So and I

871
00:47:45.039 --> 00:47:49.159
think that if it's not addressed, if it's not picked up,

872
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:53.119
then those symptoms can just continue and drag on and

873
00:47:53.159 --> 00:47:55.880
women suffer for years and.

874
00:47:55.840 --> 00:48:00.000
Roll into the second pregnancy and you know, et cetera. Yeah,

875
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:02.760
So I again I just feel like this is like

876
00:48:02.840 --> 00:48:06.960
this useful information for people to have we just have

877
00:48:07.079 --> 00:48:09.559
this idea of this like oh you have the baby blues,

878
00:48:09.679 --> 00:48:11.920
or for some women at drags on a little longer.

879
00:48:12.119 --> 00:48:14.519
But but you know, then you come out the other

880
00:48:14.599 --> 00:48:17.039
side of it, like it's only the first couple of months,

881
00:48:17.039 --> 00:48:19.840
this is all the stuff that I heard, and it's not.

882
00:48:20.440 --> 00:48:22.440
It is not and it is worth seeking help at

883
00:48:22.480 --> 00:48:25.920
any point. In fact, you went back into hospital when

884
00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:27.840
your baby was almost.

885
00:48:27.519 --> 00:48:33.400
Two, right, Yeah, and at that point, because so they

886
00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:37.079
only take other baby admissions up to twelve months. So

887
00:48:37.079 --> 00:48:42.199
again that's pastline period at twelve months, that's it. So yeah,

888
00:48:42.239 --> 00:48:46.119
at that point I was admitted by myself, and that

889
00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:52.000
was sort of a I guess it was probably more yeah,

890
00:48:52.039 --> 00:48:55.480
perhaps of relapse or i'd never actually coroplic fully recovered,

891
00:48:55.639 --> 00:48:59.920
but basically I needed to have my medication reassessed. Again,

892
00:49:00.039 --> 00:49:03.320
I needed rest, I needed to sleep. I just wasn't sleeping.

893
00:49:03.800 --> 00:49:08.079
And yeah, it was just again that that sort of right,

894
00:49:08.119 --> 00:49:10.519
we need to look at the medication here in a

895
00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:12.760
situation where we can do that where you're on de

896
00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:16.400
sleepervision and yeah, not not in the community and having

897
00:49:16.440 --> 00:49:20.559
to manage that while mothering. And yeah, so that that

898
00:49:20.679 --> 00:49:24.280
was a shorter day and a very different experience because

899
00:49:24.280 --> 00:49:27.840
it was a general psychiatric ward and definitely not as

900
00:49:27.880 --> 00:49:30.559
friendly and lovely as there as some other baby you know.

901
00:49:31.360 --> 00:49:33.760
And you talk also about some of the shame that

902
00:49:33.800 --> 00:49:36.800
you felt around that, like your perception that people would

903
00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:38.840
be thinking, oh.

904
00:49:38.320 --> 00:49:41.519
Yeah, so if I also kid, like, if she's still see,

905
00:49:41.599 --> 00:49:44.360
why shouldn't she? I thought it was postpartum, just like

906
00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:46.519
why is she still? Yeah? And that was all my

907
00:49:46.559 --> 00:49:48.559
own stuff. I mean, I don't know, I can't read

908
00:49:48.639 --> 00:49:51.239
people's minds, and I might think people were more empathetic

909
00:49:51.320 --> 00:49:55.519
than that, but definitely that was my fear that people

910
00:49:55.559 --> 00:49:57.760
would just think, these what do you mean you're still

911
00:49:58.119 --> 00:49:59.400
it's still you're still sick.

912
00:50:00.239 --> 00:50:03.159
Yeah. I think it's important to be honest about that

913
00:50:03.239 --> 00:50:05.480
because you're what you're thinking is what other people. So

914
00:50:05.519 --> 00:50:07.119
what other people are out there are thinking, you know,

915
00:50:07.119 --> 00:50:10.519
they're all having those same thoughts. And so that's why

916
00:50:10.519 --> 00:50:12.519
I think it's your book is so important because it's

917
00:50:12.599 --> 00:50:15.519
normalizing so much of this that it's a universal A

918
00:50:15.559 --> 00:50:15.760
lot of.

919
00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:19.360
Not a linear no, not a linear recovery is not linear.

920
00:50:19.480 --> 00:50:22.639
There some people recovery will be too three four stays

921
00:50:22.679 --> 00:50:27.360
in hospital or it might be different medications, and it

922
00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:30.360
might be not going back to work for a while,

923
00:50:30.440 --> 00:50:32.840
or working part time or working in a different capacity.

924
00:50:33.039 --> 00:50:36.679
It's just hey, or sometimes it's like my friend and

925
00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:39.280
who I met in hospital. For her, it was I mean,

926
00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:42.480
it wasn't completely straightforward, but it was when in hospital,

927
00:50:42.840 --> 00:50:46.760
had the right meds, was discharged home meds worked, went

928
00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:49.119
back to work, you know, and it was sort of

929
00:50:49.880 --> 00:50:52.119
slowly was able to get on with her life. And

930
00:50:52.159 --> 00:50:54.440
not that it was an easy jammy, but just that

931
00:50:54.480 --> 00:50:58.480
it was comparatively it was sort of more straightforward and

932
00:50:58.519 --> 00:51:01.880
more what you would see, what you would typically hope for.

933
00:51:02.840 --> 00:51:04.960
But that's not the case for for a lot of us.

934
00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:08.239
And it can be really frustrating and demoralizing when you

935
00:51:08.239 --> 00:51:09.800
feel like you're just not getting better.

936
00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:13.440
Oh yeah, I mean it can be really frustrating and

937
00:51:13.440 --> 00:51:17.000
demoralizing just to not just just to be depressed. After

938
00:51:17.039 --> 00:51:19.519
you've had a baby, I remember thinking, well, why did

939
00:51:19.519 --> 00:51:21.119
I get the dud baby who doesn't sleep?

940
00:51:21.159 --> 00:51:24.199
Like everybody with me?

941
00:51:24.320 --> 00:51:25.800
What's wrong with my baby?

942
00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:28.440
Absolutely not an oncommon There is a lot of a

943
00:51:28.440 --> 00:51:32.199
lot of white why me, why me? Why not me?

944
00:51:32.480 --> 00:51:33.039
Why not me?

945
00:51:33.280 --> 00:51:36.599
So there's I mean there's so much more that you

946
00:51:36.639 --> 00:51:38.039
talk about in your book, and I'm going to encourage

947
00:51:38.039 --> 00:51:40.760
everybody to go and get it. It is really beautifully

948
00:51:40.760 --> 00:51:45.559
written and researched as well, So it is your experience

949
00:51:45.639 --> 00:51:49.239
beautifully told, and also so much important information and stats

950
00:51:49.239 --> 00:51:51.400
and resources in there as well. But you know, you

951
00:51:51.519 --> 00:51:54.760
also talk about the decision of whether or not to

952
00:51:54.800 --> 00:52:02.599
have another baby, which is a really really challenge difficult thing. Right,

953
00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:05.119
you were really honest about that and you ultimately decided

954
00:52:05.159 --> 00:52:05.400
not to.

955
00:52:06.039 --> 00:52:10.039
Yeah. Yeah, for me, it's I did have that sort

956
00:52:10.039 --> 00:52:14.239
of peak again at that four years. I remember getting

957
00:52:14.239 --> 00:52:18.039
to Henry was four and I was thinking about it,

958
00:52:18.039 --> 00:52:22.559
started to be mindful of that age gap, and yeah,

959
00:52:22.639 --> 00:52:25.559
having that sort of relapse and it was a depressive episode,

960
00:52:25.599 --> 00:52:28.719
not not psychotic, but it was enough for me to

961
00:52:28.840 --> 00:52:31.920
sort of think, I'm just not sure that I'm feel

962
00:52:31.960 --> 00:52:35.360
stable or feel ready or able to do it again.

963
00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:39.440
And yeah, you know, there was there was certainly greece

964
00:52:39.800 --> 00:52:42.840
around that, and for a lot of women, it's a

965
00:52:42.880 --> 00:52:46.400
really difficult decision to make. But yeah, that was the

966
00:52:46.480 --> 00:52:49.519
right decision for me. And yeah, but no, I know.

967
00:52:49.599 --> 00:52:51.559
I did, I was. I didn't have one either. I

968
00:52:51.599 --> 00:52:53.639
stopped at one. I stopped at one.

969
00:52:54.039 --> 00:52:57.679
Yeah, yeah, okay, that are so so many similarities, so many.

970
00:52:57.519 --> 00:53:01.159
So many similarities and the same things, the same thing.

971
00:53:01.199 --> 00:53:02.800
Got to the point thought yeah, no, I will, I'll

972
00:53:02.960 --> 00:53:05.639
have another one. And then it was just I don't know,

973
00:53:05.719 --> 00:53:07.000
do I risk it and do I?

974
00:53:07.480 --> 00:53:09.840
And that's for me, it's a risk, it's a big risk,

975
00:53:09.880 --> 00:53:12.039
and you have to weigh out the risk and the benefits.

976
00:53:12.119 --> 00:53:14.920
And for me, I just thought that doing it woulout

977
00:53:14.960 --> 00:53:19.639
completely outstirit my capacity and resourcing and for me, so

978
00:53:19.719 --> 00:53:21.519
in a way, it was quite a kind as clinical

979
00:53:21.679 --> 00:53:25.000
decision as this would just not It just doesn't the

980
00:53:25.039 --> 00:53:28.440
math does a mass like it's not gonna almost a

981
00:53:28.440 --> 00:53:30.599
bit script of emotion in a way.

982
00:53:30.760 --> 00:53:34.000
Yeah, but it's still painful. And also there's the guilt

983
00:53:34.159 --> 00:53:35.880
and all of the pressure, and you should be giving

984
00:53:35.880 --> 00:53:39.280
them a sibling. And also I've missed out on like

985
00:53:39.320 --> 00:53:41.679
a good I really wanted to have like a positive

986
00:53:41.800 --> 00:53:44.199
mothering experience, and I thought I would just like to

987
00:53:44.679 --> 00:53:48.800
have another one for many reasons, but for that as well.

988
00:53:49.559 --> 00:53:51.119
Now I'm going to get emotional maps.

989
00:53:52.280 --> 00:53:55.480
It's a really really big decision and it's really difficult

990
00:53:55.639 --> 00:53:58.519
and something that a lot of women have also reached

991
00:53:58.519 --> 00:54:00.800
out after reading a book and just you know, I

992
00:54:00.880 --> 00:54:04.000
did also does have one, and it's really difficult and

993
00:54:04.599 --> 00:54:07.880
not everybody understands, and you know, it's nice to feel

994
00:54:08.039 --> 00:54:10.599
validated that I've made the right choice.

995
00:54:11.039 --> 00:54:13.079
Whether post thatal depression or not. Right, maybe you just

996
00:54:13.119 --> 00:54:15.280
want to have one baby, but there's so much the

997
00:54:15.360 --> 00:54:16.800
social pressure.

998
00:54:17.159 --> 00:54:18.960
Yes, and having cheer things to have one is so

999
00:54:19.039 --> 00:54:22.280
much more common these days. Yeahs for lots and lots

1000
00:54:22.280 --> 00:54:25.840
of reasons. So yeah, there's less stigma or attached to

1001
00:54:25.920 --> 00:54:29.280
what I think, which is nice, Arion.

1002
00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:31.920
And then you also talk about, you know, the wider impact,

1003
00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:33.760
like the impact which we won't go into now because

1004
00:54:33.760 --> 00:54:36.119
we're out of time, but you know, for people listening,

1005
00:54:36.119 --> 00:54:38.599
you know, the impact on your partner, like because it's

1006
00:54:38.599 --> 00:54:41.920
not you're not the only one who you obviously are

1007
00:54:41.920 --> 00:54:44.280
the one who experiences this, but it does have ripple

1008
00:54:44.280 --> 00:54:46.679
effects to the people in your and your family and

1009
00:54:46.679 --> 00:54:49.400
your wider circle, and it's important to acknowledge that as

1010
00:54:49.440 --> 00:54:50.639
well and for people.

1011
00:54:50.440 --> 00:54:54.880
To come to absolutely that's definitely something that I hope

1012
00:54:54.920 --> 00:54:57.760
is a real key takeaway from the book that the

1013
00:54:57.840 --> 00:55:01.400
partners and family, the care is who are having to

1014
00:55:01.440 --> 00:55:04.719
step up into that role. They need to really be

1015
00:55:04.760 --> 00:55:07.199
in Mike, and we need to be mindful that they're

1016
00:55:07.239 --> 00:55:10.159
often struggling too, and their needs are kind of pushed

1017
00:55:10.159 --> 00:55:13.880
aside because they're in this tearing role and to their

1018
00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:18.840
partner and their baby while also managing work and financial

1019
00:55:18.960 --> 00:55:22.039
pressures and all kinds of things. So yeah, watch out

1020
00:55:22.039 --> 00:55:24.639
of the partner's partners as well. They really need to

1021
00:55:24.639 --> 00:55:26.800
be held to in their own way.

1022
00:55:27.400 --> 00:55:30.800
Yeah, Arian, thank you so much for not only like

1023
00:55:31.159 --> 00:55:34.800
dredging up all of your past and painful experiences to

1024
00:55:34.880 --> 00:55:40.599
share with us for such a positive benefit for readers.

1025
00:55:40.679 --> 00:55:43.079
I really appreciate that, and for taking the time to

1026
00:55:43.119 --> 00:55:44.599
do these interviews as well.

1027
00:55:44.639 --> 00:55:47.719
And it's my pleasure. It's my pleasure, and it's such

1028
00:55:47.800 --> 00:55:50.679
a there's such a joy in having a conversation with

1029
00:55:50.760 --> 00:55:52.880
someone who relates to so much of it. And I

1030
00:55:52.920 --> 00:55:55.880
can tell that, you know, you really resonated and really

1031
00:55:55.880 --> 00:55:58.679
engaged so deeply with the book and the experience, so

1032
00:55:58.719 --> 00:56:01.519
that it's such a pleasure, such an absolute pleasure to

1033
00:56:01.559 --> 00:56:02.760
be here to talk to you.

1034
00:56:03.119 --> 00:56:06.039
Well, I'm glad, thank you so much. Good luck, good

1035
00:56:06.119 --> 00:56:08.719
luck with it all, and I will put all of

1036
00:56:08.760 --> 00:56:10.880
the links in the show notes to you know, where

1037
00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:14.199
to connect with you and to amazing things that you're doing.

1038
00:56:15.039 --> 00:56:18.119
Yeah, all the coat resources, all the bits and pieces

1039
00:56:18.119 --> 00:56:20.400
that we're working on. Be great fans and people to

1040
00:56:20.400 --> 00:56:36.199
have access to those as well of course, Yeah,