Sept. 15, 2019

Not giving a f*ck with Mark Manson

Not giving a f*ck with Mark Manson
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Not giving a f*ck with Mark Manson
Not giving a f*ck with Mark Manson
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Season 4 Mindset Self-Confidence Positive Psychology

He’s a widely successful author with a New York Times best-selling books ‘The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck’ and ‘Everything is F*cked’. Cass Dunn chats with Mark Manson about the so called nay sayers who tell him he’s an idiot and the ones who say he saved their lives. Mark gives honest, no BS tips about how to free yourself from self doubt, change your habits and stop caring about what other people think.https://markmanson.net/
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Transcript
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A listener production. Hey guys, you're listening to Crappy to Happy.

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I'm cash done. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist, a

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mindfulness meditation teacher, and author of the Crappy to Happy books.

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In this series, we look at all of the factors

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that might be making you feel crappy and give you

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the tools and the techniques that will help you to

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overcome them. In each episode, I introduce you to interesting, inspiring,

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intelligent people who are experts in their field, and my

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hope is that they will help you feel less crappy

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and more happy. This episode of Crappy to Happy contains

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a little adult language, so if that's not for you,

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you might want to switch to another episode. And if

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you've got little ears around, you might want to put

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in some earbuds. So today we are speaking to Mark Manson,

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who is the best selling author, most famous for his

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book The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck and

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more recently, his new book Everything Is Fucked, a book

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about hope. He describes himself as a writer who gives

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advice that doesn't suck, and says some people think he's

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an idiot, whereas other people say he saved their lives

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Mark and I unpacked the paradox of progress, what he

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hopes his books will give to readers, and why you've

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been doing happiness all wrong marks. Such a pleasure to

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have you on the crappy a happy show.

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It's good to be here.

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Look, I think that you need no introduction. Really, your

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first book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck.

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If people haven't read it, they have certainly heard of it.

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And it was an astonishing success, right yeah?

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Yeah? How many copies were actually done? Here? A total worldwide?

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I think it's nine million, it's amazing, and then I

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think down here it's one million.

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Oh wow, so we're a huge, huge proportion.

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Yeah, I mean, well it's a country, what twenty five million? Yeah,

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so it's like one out of yeah, one out of

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twenty five Australians has it, which is nuts, absolutely nuts.

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Everybody has certainly heard of it. And now you've obviously

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just followed up with the second one, Everything is Fucked

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a book about hope. Yes, and I have read both

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of them, and obviously so I have quite a lot

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of Australians. But for anybody who hasn't, I just thought

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maybe we should start with just is it possible to

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give a little summary of what the books are about

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and how they're different, and then we'll talk more in

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more detail.

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I joke, my joke elevator pitch is that I write

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self help for people who hate self help. I like

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to think of it as kind of like a pessimistic

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self help. You know, most personal development material is like

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it's very positive, it's very idealistic. It's like, hey, you

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can do anything, just believe in yourself, you know. And I,

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you know, I've blogged for ten or twelve years, and

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I spent a lot of time, you know, reading psychological research,

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and I just I think humans are kind of awful

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and and so I wanted to write a self help

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book that kind of that was the starting point, is like, hey,

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we're awful, and let's try to be a little bit

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less awful. How about that?

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I like that. And it's very clear to me that

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you have read a lot of psychological you know, research,

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and that you know a lot about psychology. And I

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really what I liked about the first book is that

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there's a lot of psychology in there, and you have

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expressed it in a way that a lot of people

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will really who perhaps like you, said, wouldn't normally be

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into self help? Can really grab a hold of those

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ideas and relate to them?

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Yeah? Absolutely.

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And so the second book goes a lot deeper, doesn't it.

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Yes, can you do?

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You want to talk a little bit and we'll talk

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a bit about that.

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I think, Yeah, it's a denser read, it's a more

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intellectual read. The success of the first book gave me

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a little bit of an identity crisis. Can we talk

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about that for sure? Absolutely, which then kind of inspired

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the second book. And so I think the second book

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there some things are taken much further in certain ways.

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And whether that's a good or bad thing, I have

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no idea.

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I really enjoyed the second book. I really liked it.

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Yes, thank you. It's interesting. The second book I knew

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I was going to It's a harder it's a more

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difficult read. It's a more challenging read. But I think

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there's more fruit there. And so I kind of you know,

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when you have a huge runaway success like the first one,

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there's this pressure to like reproduce it, like just just

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copy and paste and do the next one. You know,

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let's just let's all cash more checks. And I really

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didn't want to do that, and so I very much

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looked for ways to both challenge myself but also challenge

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the reader in new ways, understanding that I would probably

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alienate some people who love the first book, and being

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okay with that.

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Have you had much feedback so far?

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Yeah, So it's interesting. I would say maybe twenty twenty

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five percent of the fans love the second one even

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more than the first one. Yeah, and then there's probably

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about twenty twenty five percent who are like, what the

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hell are you doing? Just rewrite the first one? You

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had a good thing going, Mark, why did you mess

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it up? But overall people like it. It's just it's

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not having. It doesn't seem to be having, you know,

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like the subtle Art had this viral impact.

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Yeah.

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I think it was so different when it came out

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and so kind of in your face that people really

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wanted to talk about it. The second one is more,

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you know, sit by yourself in a room and stare

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out the window for.

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A few hours to think about your life, think about

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what you think, about what you've done exactly.

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It is a bit like that. It is it is,

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and I think that it's I like that about it.

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It challenges us, challenges us all to look at our

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own I don't know a position about a lot of

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things in the We live our loves, So now I

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want to get to talking about that. So the main

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message of the first book, which you extend on, I

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think in the second book, is to and for a

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show called Creptita Happy. And I've written books called Crepta Happy.

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To stop trying to chase happiness. If the definition of

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happiness is to never feel uncomfortable, to never feel discomfort,

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yeah so, And basically that pain is the universal concept.

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Do you want to talk sure about that? Yeah?

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Yeah, so. I the argument I make is that, and

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I make it in both books. I think I drill

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deeper into it into this in the second book. But

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it's basically that there's no there's no kind of permanent

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state of satisfaction like this. Satisfaction is a built in

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component of our psychology. No matter how good things get,

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no matter how great your relationship is, how much money

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you make, like whatever, there's going to be dissatisfaction and

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and there's gonna be certain letdowns and pains and disappointments

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that come along with that. And so for me, and

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this is kind of what I was like, this is

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why it's a pessimistic form of self help, is that

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instead of running from the pain or running from the dissatisfaction, like,

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the more important question is is finding dissatisfaction that is

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worth having? Yes, another way to put it is is

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find find the crappy that has a good reason for

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it exactly.

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So it's and I think the phrase that I've heard

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you use and others use is like, what is it

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that you're willing to struggle for us? What matters enough? Yes,

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that you're willing to tolerate the discomfort?

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Absolutely yes, And it's you know, I rip on happiness

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a lot, but a lot of that is uh, I

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just feel like I feel like happiness as a concept

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has been it's become a cartoon of uh, you know

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what we should be talking about. You know, it's just

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this very kind of flippant like, you know, do X,

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y Z and you'll be happy, you know, type of

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thing where it's like, no, the human condition is very complicated.

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Happiness is you can be happy for horrible reasons, you

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can be happy for great reasons. And so there are

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a lot more philosophical discussions that need to happen around

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happiness for sure.

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And some of that is just about your definition of happiness.

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I tell people, because I've had people have a go

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at me too about you selling happiness. And what I

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say is I sell people what they want, but then

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I give them what they need, sure, of course. And

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one of the first chapters in my book is if

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you expect me to feel happy all the time, you

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screw bad luck. And I talk about the idea and

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you talk about this as well, you know, this idea

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of finding meaning. And one really good example. I don't

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think you haven't had kids yet, no, but think about parenting.

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Probably some of the shittiest experiences, like the most painful,

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the most uncomfortable, absolutely, but the most joyful and meaningful.

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And that's just one example of the ways that we

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tolerate discomfort in the service of something. Yeah that matters.

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It's funny because there's a there was a famous study

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that came out like ten years ago, and I remember

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there were headlines on all these publications where it found that, uh,

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new parents of newborns are the unhappiest demographic, like in society,

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I believe it and so and the articles were like,

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so scientists say that you shouldn't have kids because you

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won't be happy. And I'm like, that is the stupidest

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conclusion you could, like exactly if there's anything that shows

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that happiness is a poor metric to measure everything by,

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you know, like that's a perfect example because if you

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if you talk to any parent, they're like, it's the

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most important thing I've ever done. It's the best thing

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I've ever done. And yeah, it's miserable sometimes.

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Well any relationship really absolutely, you know, and you know,

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there's lots of other examples. I just think that's that

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one really kind of feels it well, but there's lots

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of other things.

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It's interesting. I was talking to a friend like a

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week ago about this, Like it's the original, like the

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definition of happiness. Originally it had two separate definitions. So

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like if you dig back into like ancient philosophy, like

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Aristotle said, there are two forms of happiness with hidonia

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and youd aemonia, and like the hedonia is like pleasure based,

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you know, it's like feeling good like drinking a beer

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and buying a new car or something like. It's very

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pleasure simplistic and superficial, and it's very temporary and then

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the other form of happiness is like this deeper fulfillment

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that you have, this deeper purpose, you have, this this

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struggle or meaning behind your actions, that it will sustain

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you over a long period of time. And if you

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look at you know, a lot of people, so like

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in the US, we have in baked into our like

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constitution and declaration of independence is the right life, liberty,

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pursuit of happiness. So it's a huge part of American creatures,

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this pursuit of happiness. But really, like what they were

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referring to is that that second more fulfillment based you know,

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it's it's basically like a modern translation, it would be

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you have the right to life liberty in the pursuit

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of purpose, the pursuit of finding something important to yourself.

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But I think through like commercialism and advertising and consumerism

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and everything that's gotten caricatured into you know, feeling all

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the time, feeling good constantly, which is the wrong approach.

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Can we talk about the paradox of progress. The wealthier

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we get, the unhappier we are. That's one of the

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points in your second book.

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Yeah, it's it's it's interesting because there's a lot of

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research and a lot of it's very recent that's coming out,

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that's finding. You know, there's talk of like a mental

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health crisis, rates of anxiety, depression, suicide. I'm not sure

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about here, but like in the US, drug overdoses, like

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it's becoming. These are all growing problems. And what's fascinating

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is is these things are happening in some of the

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wealthiest and most comfortable parts of the country, but also

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the world. You know, if you look at rates of suicide,

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you know, they track pretty well to how developed and

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safe a country is. There's also a lot of like

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global studies on a sense of meaning or purpose, and

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it's the wealthiest countries report the lowest sense of meaning

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and purpose in their lives. The wealthiest countries have the

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highest rates of pessimism. I think in the US it's

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only six percent of people think that the country is

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going to be better off in twenty years than it

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is today. And it's so's there's this weird thing where

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it's like the safer and more comfortable we all get,

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the more we start freaking out about stuff. And I

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think that the starting point for the new book. Although

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there's a lot of psych personal psychology in it, was

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very much like what the hell's going on? Yeah, like

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why what is it about? And it kind of like,

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I think, on an intuitive level, it kind of makes sense.

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Like if you're if you're like a subsistence farmer in India,

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it's very easy to be motivated, like you need food,

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you know. So it's like you wake up every day

247
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and there's no abstract question of like what is the

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point of my life and what should I work on today?

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It's like, no, you gotta go get food, like there's

250
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or you're gonna starve. Whereas when you're sitting in like

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a nice air conditioned apartment with five hundred shows on

252
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Netflix and twenty five different types of food can be

253
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delivered to you from a push of a button, this

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question of like what what is the value of my life?

255
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What is the purpose my life? What should I hope for?

256
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Like these are these actually become very difficult questions to

257
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answer because because it's almost like the the amount of

258
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opportunity and in possibility is paralyzing.

259
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Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it. It's I was just thinking

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about the whole you know, Maslow's hierarchy, where you have

261
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your basic needs met and then you then can you

262
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move up to the next one, like when you're safe

263
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and when you're fed, and when you you know, then

264
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there's love and sex and whatever, and so almost like

265
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when you get to the peak of the self actualization,

266
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there's this existential.

267
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Crisis totally, and it's I think what's interesting too is

268
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if you think about those higher levels of the hierarchy,

269
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like the belonging, the self esteem, and the self actualization,

270
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like those are difficult personal questions that you have to

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answer for yourself, and I think modern life complicates those things.

272
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You know, it's when you're being blasted by five hundred

273
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different messages every time you go online, it's hard to

274
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know what you want to belong to. It's hard to

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know what you should be proud of. And so in

276
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a weird way, I think it's the connectivity of the

277
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twenty first century has made it more difficult to define

278
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ourselves and define what we want for ourselves.

279
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And you talk also again you just reminded me then

280
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about which I thought was really interesting, the difference between

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freedom and variety. Yeah, and people think they have more

282
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freedom and all they've actually got is more variety. Do

283
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you want to just talk sure about that? A bit.

284
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Yeah, I think this is another I don't know how

285
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how much this resonates down here, but in the US

286
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there's you know where Americas we love freedom. You know, yes,

287
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we got our guns, we got our beers, we got

288
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our freedom. It's a huge part of our culture. And

289
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I think the consumerism is a big part of that

290
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as well. And I think implicit in that kind of

291
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love of freedom is I think people mistake having more

292
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options as being more free. And I think that's true

293
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up to a certain extent. So you know, if you don't,

294
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like if you're if a kid has no school that

295
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they can go to, giving them one school that they

296
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can go to is an increase in freedom. If a

297
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kid only has one school they can go to and

298
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you give them an option like two or three, that's

299
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an increase of freedom. If you give them an option

300
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of like fifty, at some point, you're not increasing their

301
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freedom anymore. In fact, you're actually you're creating more anxiety

302
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in uncertainty around whatever choice they make. And so I

303
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think there's kind of there's like a bandwidth limit our

304
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in our brain in terms of the amount of options

305
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that we're able to comprehend and handle and I think

306
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once we exceed that limit, more options actually reduces freedom

307
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because we know paralizing, Yeah, because we no longer feel

308
00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:02.960
confident in our own choices. Yeah, and we know no

309
00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:06.319
longer we start experiencing fomo and anxiety that we didn't

310
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pick the right thing and that maybe this was better.

311
00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:10.680
And you know what, I can't I can't decide. It's

312
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too overwhelming. And so the argument I make in the

313
00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:17.480
book is that I think we need to reconceptualize freedom

314
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as it's not having more options. It's it's choosing to

315
00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:26.839
limit ourselves to less, like very consciously being like, Okay,

316
00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:28.599
I could do these twenty things, but I'm going to

317
00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:32.000
focus on these two. Like that's the new kind of

318
00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:33.640
twenty first century form of freedom.

319
00:17:34.039 --> 00:17:37.920
That coming back to the idea of knowing what matters,

320
00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:40.480
like choosing your values and then making your.

321
00:17:40.359 --> 00:17:42.480
Decisions, knowing what to give a fuck about, knowing what

322
00:17:42.519 --> 00:17:47.319
to give a fuck about exactly, yeah, exactly, because it's

323
00:17:47.359 --> 00:17:50.599
it's it is paralyzing, you know, and it's like I

324
00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:53.599
think everybody. I think this is part of what made

325
00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:57.880
the first book resonate so much, is that everybody is

326
00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:02.160
feeling this, but nobody it's hard. I think, you know,

327
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not to pat myself on the back, but maybe I'm

328
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one of the first people that's kind of putting language

329
00:18:05.720 --> 00:18:08.839
to it. Of like, people know they care about this

330
00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:12.599
one thing, but there's so much other stuff.

331
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Going on in their life. You know, they every time

332
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they open their phone, all the people they're talking to,

333
00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:21.680
every time they turn on the TV, that they feel

334
00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:24.559
pulled away from that one thing they care about constantly,

335
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and they don't they don't realize it, and it causes

336
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a lot of stress and despair because they feel like

337
00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:34.440
they're incapable of focusing on that one thing they care about.

338
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And so in subtle Art, Subtle Art was very much

339
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about figure out what that one thing you care about is,

340
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become conscious of that. And then this new book, at

341
00:18:45.559 --> 00:18:47.680
least the part two of this new book is very

342
00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:51.119
much about, Okay, how do we cut out all the crap?

343
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How do we limit ourselves and limit our exposure to

344
00:18:57.000 --> 00:18:59.920
all the noise and nonsense that's going on all the time.

345
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Mark there is a quote in the second book which

346
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is that your identity will say your identity until a

347
00:19:05.960 --> 00:19:10.000
new experience acts against it. Can you tell me what

348
00:19:10.039 --> 00:19:10.519
you mean by that?

349
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Sure? So you know, we love to believe that we

350
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could think our way to being different. You know, we

351
00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:25.880
love to think that, Man, if I just read this book,

352
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or if I just learn, you know, what to eat,

353
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I'll be a different person. And it doesn't work that

354
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way because basically, you know, who we are is is

355
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essentially just what we value. And so if you want

356
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:44.799
to value different things, you can't think your way to

357
00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:49.039
new values. You have to experience have experiences that promote

358
00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:54.960
those new values in your mind. And the nature of

359
00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:58.240
those experiences whenever you experience something that's kind of contrary

360
00:19:58.279 --> 00:20:03.000
to your current values is by definition stressful and uncomfortable.

361
00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:08.160
So it's like if I, you know, like let's say

362
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I'm going to use like a really silly, superficial example,

363
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but like let's say I struggle to get up in

364
00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:18.640
the morning and I decide, you know, you know what,

365
00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:20.440
I'm going to be the type of person that wakes

366
00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:22.640
up at five am every day. Well, I can read

367
00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:26.039
books about sleep patterns, sleep habits, morning routines, I can

368
00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:29.440
listen to podcasts, I can do whatever. None of those

369
00:20:29.480 --> 00:20:32.680
things are actually going to get me up in the morning.

370
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I have to have the experience of getting up in

371
00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:38.599
the morning. And because that experience is contrary to who

372
00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:41.400
I already am, it's going to be a painful experience.

373
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By definition, it will be a painful experience. And this

374
00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:47.039
is true of everything. If you want to you know,

375
00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:51.920
if you want to emotionally let go of a partner,

376
00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:55.559
or if you want to change careers, like you have

377
00:20:55.640 --> 00:21:00.240
to seek out contrary experiences to your current to your

378
00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:04.359
current values. And because those are contrary experiences, they will

379
00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:07.119
be uncomfortable, they will hurt, they will be difficult, you

380
00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:10.119
will freak out and uh, and so by by that,

381
00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:14.119
like this is why I I I shot on like

382
00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:17.920
the the kind of the airy fairy woo woo flavors

383
00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:20.599
of self help, you know of like this idea that

384
00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:25.960
you can walk in a room and uh jump and

385
00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:27.880
cheer and dance and then come out three hours later

386
00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:30.000
a new person. Like it's it doesn't work that way,

387
00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:33.640
Like personal change is a I think in so art,

388
00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:37.240
I call it a contact sport. Like it is. It's ugly,

389
00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:42.480
it's uh, it's it's dirty, it's there's a lot of uncertainty.

390
00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:48.279
There's you have relapses, you have self doubt, you lose

391
00:21:48.279 --> 00:21:51.480
your confidence. But this is part of it, like you

392
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:55.279
have to live through that to come out the other

393
00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:56.480
side a different person.

394
00:21:56.759 --> 00:22:00.799
Yes, completely agree. And I guess going back to the

395
00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:04.079
original point, if you're not willing to tolerate that discomfort, yes,

396
00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:07.200
you're never going to have that change. You're never going

397
00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:10.319
to make those important change.

398
00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:18.240
Absolutely. It's there's a certain tolerance, tolerance of discomfort or

399
00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:22.839
tolerance of pain that's required to make those changes. And

400
00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:25.079
I think that's why. I mean, it's interesting when you

401
00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:29.880
look at habit research, you find, like there's a there's

402
00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:33.400
this book called Power of Habit by Charles S. Douhigg,

403
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:35.319
and it's one of the things he talks about that's

404
00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:38.599
really remarkable is that you have a lot of people

405
00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:40.720
who you know their life will be kind of a mess,

406
00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:45.400
and once they get the first big change, like it

407
00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:48.119
kind of creates this domino effect. So you'll get somebody

408
00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:51.880
who's like a couch potato, unemployed, no confidence or whatever,

409
00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:57.240
and they manage to start jogging and they develop a

410
00:22:57.319 --> 00:23:00.599
jogging habit and suddenly they stop smoking, they get a job,

411
00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:03.599
they like, get their finances together, like suddenly everything else

412
00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:06.079
starts falling into place. And I think a big reason

413
00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:10.480
for that is that it's not only are you just

414
00:23:10.519 --> 00:23:15.599
taking up jogging, but you are You're building that that

415
00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:19.119
pain tolerance, You're building that ability to weather through the

416
00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:23.480
uncertainty and the self doubt and the discomfort, so that

417
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:27.599
attacking those other habits and those other behavioral changes no

418
00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:29.559
longer feel impossible to you.

419
00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:33.519
And I think in any underneath all of that is

420
00:23:33.559 --> 00:23:37.319
knowing why, right, not knowing why that change matters. Why

421
00:23:37.319 --> 00:23:38.680
do you want to be a jogger? Why do it?

422
00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:41.039
Because in the space that I work in too, like

423
00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:43.359
people will say, I want to do this differently, want

424
00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:44.720
to break this habit, I want to eat better, I

425
00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:48.400
want to lose why, Because you're not going to do

426
00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:51.279
that hard work and tolerate that discomfort unless there's something

427
00:23:51.319 --> 00:23:53.799
that's much more important than that is temporary feelings of.

428
00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:58.319
Yes, discomfort, absolutely, And it's a values question, yeah, totally.

429
00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:02.359
And if your why is like you know, I want

430
00:24:02.359 --> 00:24:06.279
to fit into my swimsuit next month, you know, it's

431
00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:12.319
it's sustainable, sustainable, it's it's yeah. The why has to

432
00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:14.440
go much deeper than that, you know, And it's I

433
00:24:14.440 --> 00:24:18.200
think it's why you see people who have like real

434
00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:21.279
serious health scares, like I had a friend who had

435
00:24:21.319 --> 00:24:25.240
a stroke at a very young age, like four or

436
00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:28.920
five years ago, and man, it's just everything snapped in

437
00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:32.119
the shape because it's you're confronted with that mortality. It's like, wow,

438
00:24:32.359 --> 00:24:37.720
I can't I can't get away with like standing up

439
00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:40.240
drinking the three am a bunch, you know, It's like,

440
00:24:40.279 --> 00:24:41.880
I I've got to take care of myself.

441
00:24:43.160 --> 00:24:45.680
It's a difference too between because what you said is

442
00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:48.480
so true. We are not lacking information.

443
00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:51.880
No, if anything, we have too much exactly.

444
00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:55.119
But the thing that makes the difference is that, well

445
00:24:55.319 --> 00:24:59.279
it's the it's the why. But it's an insight that

446
00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:03.799
comes from sometimes unexpected places. But it's an insight that

447
00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:08.599
shifts something fundamentally. Right, Yes, yeah, and that's what That's

448
00:25:08.599 --> 00:25:10.240
what gets people to do things differently.

449
00:25:10.519 --> 00:25:14.720
And and I think that the why, the important thing

450
00:25:14.759 --> 00:25:18.039
is that the why it comes from something deeper than

451
00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:22.279
simply you know what people are going to think about you,

452
00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:25.680
which is I think where most people's why comes from.

453
00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:28.440
Most of the time, it's it's like, all right, I'm

454
00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:30.799
going to do this so my co workers are impressed,

455
00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:35.039
or I'm going to do this to because it's you know,

456
00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:38.880
my parents will approve of me, Like that's a never

457
00:25:39.039 --> 00:25:44.680
ending hamster wheel, Like you can never scratch that itch completely.

458
00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:48.680
Like there's got to be something deeper going on to

459
00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:49.880
motivate a lot of this stuff.

460
00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:52.240
And I think this all also goes back to it.

461
00:25:52.279 --> 00:25:53.799
We haven't really talked about it just yet, but I

462
00:25:53.799 --> 00:25:55.480
think this also goes back to your whole idea. You

463
00:25:55.480 --> 00:25:57.240
spend a lot of time talking about the difference between

464
00:25:57.240 --> 00:25:58.480
the thinking brain and the feeling brain.

465
00:25:58.599 --> 00:26:05.440
Yeah, yeah, I've got a nice little metaphor. It's funny.

466
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:07.400
So the second chapter of the book, I create this

467
00:26:07.480 --> 00:26:10.240
metaphor about the thinking brain the feeling brain. They're like,

468
00:26:10.279 --> 00:26:15.240
they're like a disgruntled couple on a road trip, and

469
00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:19.599
and that road trips called your life. And I basically

470
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:22.200
just see how long I can keep this ridiculous metaphor going.

471
00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:24.240
And it works well.

472
00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:28.680
It did work well. It did work well. So basically,

473
00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:31.039
you know, if you look at kind of how our

474
00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:33.920
psychology is constructed, we have a thinking brain, a feeling brain,

475
00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:37.559
feeling brains, motions, impulses, desires.

476
00:26:38.519 --> 00:26:41.680
Very primitive, very like low right lizard brain.

477
00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:46.359
Yes, yeah, it's unconscious, or most of it's unconscious. And

478
00:26:46.359 --> 00:26:48.480
then the thinking brain is is very much a conscious

479
00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:55.839
rational like you know, it thinks ahead, thinks abstractly about

480
00:26:55.839 --> 00:26:57.720
the future and the past and who we are and

481
00:26:57.720 --> 00:27:01.039
all these things. You know, most of our assumptions are

482
00:27:01.279 --> 00:27:05.880
that our thinking brain is if our life is a car,

483
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:10.000
our assumptions tend to be that our thinking brain is driving,

484
00:27:10.519 --> 00:27:14.759
and our feeling brain is like this obnoxious person in

485
00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:18.720
the passenger seat who's like screaming and pointing out the window,

486
00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:23.279
and you're like, shut up, feeling brain, Like adults are driving,

487
00:27:24.319 --> 00:27:27.759
I know where I'm going, And I think when we

488
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:30.720
talk about the subjects of like self discipline and habits

489
00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:34.440
and willpower, like they're always portrayed through this idea that

490
00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:37.759
your thinking brain that like you intellectually know what you

491
00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:41.599
should do, and so you just have to exert enough

492
00:27:42.680 --> 00:27:46.920
force and power on your emotions to get them shut

493
00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:49.279
up long enough for you to go do it. And

494
00:27:49.640 --> 00:27:51.480
it turns out that this is like, not only is

495
00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:54.880
it a wrong assumption, but it's actually very damaging in

496
00:27:54.920 --> 00:27:57.920
many ways, because really what's happening in our brain is

497
00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:02.960
the feeling brain's driving, and the thinking brain is sitting

498
00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:07.240
in the passenger seat with the map, and it doesn't

499
00:28:07.240 --> 00:28:09.839
matter how good your map is. The feeling brain's going

500
00:28:09.880 --> 00:28:12.880
to go where it wants to go, and anybody who's

501
00:28:13.839 --> 00:28:16.640
set you know, I'll use myself as an example. I've

502
00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:21.200
probably read like fifteen books on fitness and nutrition, and

503
00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:24.359
you know I still order the burger and fries when

504
00:28:24.359 --> 00:28:28.720
I check in the hotel each night. So it's u

505
00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:32.599
you know, my thinking brain's got the map. Map's not

506
00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:33.200
the issue.

507
00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:36.599
It's so true. You just reminded me too of something

508
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:39.839
that we learn in like sales and selling. It's the

509
00:28:40.119 --> 00:28:45.640
you purchase with your emotions and you justify yes with

510
00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:51.000
your absolutely thinking brain. I hope you're enjoying season four

511
00:28:51.039 --> 00:28:53.079
of the show, and hey, I would love for you

512
00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:55.440
to check out my brand new YouTube channel where I'm

513
00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:58.160
sharing even more tips on how you can feel less

514
00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:01.400
crappy and more happy. It's YouTube dot com Forward slash

515
00:29:01.480 --> 00:29:03.759
cast Done, so come over check it out. I'd love

516
00:29:03.799 --> 00:29:06.519
for you to subscribe, And if you haven't already taken

517
00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:09.240
my free seven day happiness challenge, you can sign up

518
00:29:09.279 --> 00:29:12.359
for that at cast doone dot com Forward slash Happiness

519
00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:20.640
marking your experience. Why do you think that it is

520
00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:25.000
that some people are much more inclined to to move

521
00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:27.759
towards those challenges, to put themselves out there and embrace

522
00:29:27.799 --> 00:29:31.359
those challenges on that discomfort, and other people run do

523
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:32.240
anything to avoid.

524
00:29:33.559 --> 00:29:40.039
I think so some people never never get that experience

525
00:29:40.599 --> 00:29:46.279
early on that pursuing challenge or discomfort is healthy actually

526
00:29:46.279 --> 00:29:49.200
helps them. So if you think of somebody that grows

527
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:52.079
up in like a very positive environment, loving family, all

528
00:29:52.119 --> 00:29:54.319
this stuff, Like if you like one of the things

529
00:29:54.359 --> 00:29:57.599
I talked about, it's like basically what good parenting is

530
00:29:57.599 --> 00:30:03.759
is you give your kids modest challenges that you're pretty

531
00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:06.559
sure they can overcome, because once the kid takes on

532
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:09.400
that challenge and overcomes it, it builds confidence, it builds

533
00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:13.240
self reliance, It helps them develop their emotional maturity, all

534
00:30:13.240 --> 00:30:16.559
these things. If you grow up in a really fucked

535
00:30:16.599 --> 00:30:22.039
up environment where the my goodness, my stomach scrumbling.

536
00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:26.480
Apologies, I had a half a silize the pates for breakfast.

537
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:37.039
Speaking of burger and fries. But like, if you're somebody

538
00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:39.039
who grows up in like a really fucked up environment

539
00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:43.720
as a kid, like the challenges put in front of

540
00:30:43.720 --> 00:30:46.119
you are way too big for you to handle, And

541
00:30:47.319 --> 00:30:50.680
I think that that's that could be like a very

542
00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:53.440
simplistic way of describing what trauma is is that it's

543
00:30:53.920 --> 00:30:58.559
it's challenges and pain that are way past your ability

544
00:30:58.599 --> 00:31:02.680
to cope and deal with them. And so people who

545
00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:09.880
experience that, what they learn is that challenging pain is dangerous,

546
00:31:10.359 --> 00:31:15.640
avoid at all costs. And and again, thinking brain feeling brain.

547
00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:17.759
You know, they can read, they can go to therapy,

548
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:21.359
they can read books, they can understand intellectually that they

549
00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:23.240
need to be challenging themselves, they need to get off

550
00:31:23.240 --> 00:31:26.960
the couch and do this, and that their thinking brain

551
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:30.440
can have the map completely laid out, but they're feeling brain,

552
00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:35.920
because it's sustained those traumatic experiences will just have such

553
00:31:35.920 --> 00:31:41.359
an aversion to any sort of discomfort that will be

554
00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:45.799
incredibly difficult for them to actually do it.

555
00:31:46.359 --> 00:31:48.400
Yeah, I'm glad that you mentioned that too, because I

556
00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:53.319
think that is another criticism of some of the more

557
00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:56.839
popular self help you can do anything kind of messaging,

558
00:31:56.880 --> 00:32:00.559
because there are some people who really are why not

559
00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:03.440
that they can never overcome them, sure, but they certainly

560
00:32:03.480 --> 00:32:07.599
have a lot further to go in overcoming those experiences

561
00:32:07.599 --> 00:32:09.599
and rewiring that absolutely.

562
00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:12.799
And I like to think of I mean, I think

563
00:32:12.839 --> 00:32:15.720
of it in a very Buddhist way, which is that

564
00:32:15.799 --> 00:32:17.640
we all have our own journey. We all have our

565
00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:20.680
own path, and some of our paths intersect and combined

566
00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:23.680
for a while, but they usually split off at some point.

567
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:30.279
And some people's paths are much longer and deeper. And

568
00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:32.960
I think when you look at, like say mental health issues, people,

569
00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:36.799
their paths are very different, you know. So somebody who

570
00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:39.440
struggles a lot with anxiety is going to have a

571
00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:42.759
very different path than somebody who, say, struggles with apathy

572
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:47.960
or depression. And so this kind of one size fits

573
00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:53.039
all model, I think is not only disingenuous, but I

574
00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:56.359
think it can actually it can be dangerous, yes, especially

575
00:32:56.400 --> 00:32:59.319
when you're you're talking about like deeper mental health issues.

576
00:32:59.559 --> 00:33:04.480
And that's It's one thing that I'm always very adamant

577
00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:07.039
about in my interviews and when I do press and

578
00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:09.519
when I'm on stage is like I tell people, I'm like, look,

579
00:33:09.559 --> 00:33:12.720
I don't have all the answers, and I'm also like

580
00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:16.599
I'm often I often get asked things that it is

581
00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:20.920
just out of my pay grade, you know. People. I

582
00:33:20.920 --> 00:33:22.599
did an event like a couple of weeks ago, when

583
00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:25.119
somebody got up and she was like, I suffer from

584
00:33:25.279 --> 00:33:29.160
bipolar disorder and I've you know, tried to kill myself

585
00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:32.119
and I just looked at her. I'm like, I'm not

586
00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:36.799
the person you should be talking to. I mean, I'm glad,

587
00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:39.519
I'm glad you like my books, but like, I'm not

588
00:33:39.640 --> 00:33:41.279
qualified for this, And uh.

589
00:33:41.680 --> 00:33:44.720
Well, can I just say I am qualified? And I

590
00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:47.279
still would not answer a question from an audience member

591
00:33:47.319 --> 00:33:50.599
off a stage on a Facebook message in absolutely because

592
00:33:50.599 --> 00:33:52.599
I get them too. Yeah, And I am a psychologist

593
00:33:52.640 --> 00:33:54.160
and I have to say to people, this is not

594
00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:56.920
this is not the space, this is not I would

595
00:33:56.960 --> 00:34:01.200
lose my registration if I attempted to. Yeah, right, it's unethical.

596
00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:05.079
Absolutely, and it's I think people, you know, the classic

597
00:34:05.799 --> 00:34:10.400
therapeutic context of like one on one in a private room, confidentiality,

598
00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:14.079
like that meeting every week, you know, like that exists

599
00:34:14.119 --> 00:34:17.159
for a reason because these are long term things that

600
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:21.679
you require a relationship with a person to to help

601
00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:24.760
you cope and overcome a lot of these issues. Yeah,

602
00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:28.079
and yeah, the self help industry in general just kind

603
00:34:28.119 --> 00:34:29.280
of completely ignores that.

604
00:34:31.159 --> 00:34:33.000
And we have a thing, you know, in psychology. You know,

605
00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:35.400
there is a thing called psycho education, which is this

606
00:34:35.559 --> 00:34:38.599
like sharing general information much like we would find in

607
00:34:38.599 --> 00:34:41.159
a book or on a blog or a podcast, which

608
00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:44.239
is general information, which is broadly applicable, but it is

609
00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:47.960
no replacement, no substitute for individual Yeah.

610
00:34:47.960 --> 00:34:51.039
I always tell people, I say, like I'm I'm a

611
00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:56.519
mild problem expert. So like, you know, if you got

612
00:34:56.599 --> 00:35:02.440
fired girlfriend, dumb to you like, I'm your but if

613
00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:06.280
you got serious shit like serious, they don't.

614
00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:06.719
Not your guy.

615
00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:07.639
No, I'm not your guy.

616
00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:14.039
No fair enough to So like in the second book,

617
00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:17.920
there's a lot in there about there are a lot

618
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:21.400
of problems in the world at the moment, and a

619
00:35:21.400 --> 00:35:24.840
lot of those solutions would require us to be united

620
00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:27.119
in our approach to dealing with them. I'm talking about

621
00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:29.199
big things like there's climate change, and there's all sorts

622
00:35:29.199 --> 00:35:32.400
of stuff going on. We seem to be more divided,

623
00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:37.440
particularly politically, than we ever have been. Why do you

624
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:37.920
think that is?

625
00:35:38.599 --> 00:35:41.679
This is something that's bothered me, and I've spent a

626
00:35:41.679 --> 00:35:44.880
lot of time reading and thinking about, especially because I've

627
00:35:44.920 --> 00:35:47.519
noticed it in my own career. You know, I've I've written,

628
00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:51.119
I've blogged and published online for twelve years now, and

629
00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:56.559
I've always gotten I've always gotten criticized. But like the

630
00:35:56.639 --> 00:35:59.920
first eight or nine years of my career, those criticisms

631
00:36:00.039 --> 00:36:03.320
were like, you know, hey, stop using the F word,

632
00:36:03.480 --> 00:36:08.039
or like you're an idiot, just kind of generic trolley

633
00:36:08.079 --> 00:36:12.960
Internet stuff. And like the last couple years, the criticisms

634
00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:18.280
have been incredibly politicized. So you know, I get called racist, homophobic, socialist, communist,

635
00:36:18.360 --> 00:36:20.719
fascists like you name it. I've been called it, wow,

636
00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:28.960
And my writing is not even political. And so I've

637
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:34.199
this it's a subject that's very close to home for me,

638
00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:38.599
and I've and I've been researching and thinking about it

639
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:41.519
a lot. I mean, the conclusion I basically came down

640
00:36:41.559 --> 00:36:43.760
to is I think it's it's a combination of two things.

641
00:36:44.920 --> 00:36:49.199
The first one is what we were talking about earlier

642
00:36:49.239 --> 00:36:55.400
in terms of people are the more information you give people,

643
00:36:55.440 --> 00:36:59.800
the more it actually complicates their ability to define themselves

644
00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:03.320
and fulfill some of those higher needs on Maso's hierarchy.

645
00:37:03.400 --> 00:37:05.199
So it's harder to know what I should be proud

646
00:37:05.239 --> 00:37:09.920
of when anything I can do there's like an eleven

647
00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:12.800
year old on the Internet that's better than me at it.

648
00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:15.679
It's hard to know who I want to belong to

649
00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:19.000
when every single group that I'm aware of is constantly

650
00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:25.519
being criticized and attacked, and so I think the easiest

651
00:37:25.559 --> 00:37:28.639
way to kind of create an identity for yourself is

652
00:37:28.679 --> 00:37:31.960
to jump into one of these US versus Them dichotomies.

653
00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:40.239
It's like the bare minimum easiest human function that we

654
00:37:40.360 --> 00:37:42.800
kind of fall back to when we don't really know

655
00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:45.480
what else to do. It's like, well, everything's confusing and

656
00:37:45.639 --> 00:37:48.840
seems threatening, and I'm anxious all the time. So I'm

657
00:37:48.880 --> 00:37:50.239
going to find a bunch of people who seem like

658
00:37:50.280 --> 00:37:53.639
they're the way I am, and it's going to be

659
00:37:53.719 --> 00:37:56.280
us against the world. And I think we're all kind

660
00:37:56.320 --> 00:37:59.880
of unconsciously like nudging ourselves into one of those corners.

661
00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:05.039
So that's I think the first issue is just it's

662
00:38:05.079 --> 00:38:07.840
that human bandwidth problem that I talked about earlier. The

663
00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:14.199
second issue is, I think just the nature of the Internet. Unfortunately,

664
00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:17.840
it creates incentives. So like, let's say you write a

665
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:21.039
really powerful, profound article and it goes viral and it

666
00:38:21.039 --> 00:38:23.400
gets tons of attention and people are like, oh my god,

667
00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:28.559
Cass is amazing. The easiest, the lowest hanging fruit. Let's

668
00:38:28.599 --> 00:38:32.360
say I'm another writer. The lowest hanging fruit for me,

669
00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:35.599
as another writer who wants the same attention you're getting

670
00:38:36.199 --> 00:38:39.480
is to just shit all over whatever you're saying, because

671
00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:41.280
then now my article is going to go viral because

672
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:44.880
everybody read yours and liked it is going to read mine,

673
00:38:45.079 --> 00:38:50.000
And so then people just start instinctively picking sides because

674
00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:54.880
everything is contradicted. So no matter what you commit to,

675
00:38:58.079 --> 00:39:01.320
if that commitment, if that, if that position or that

676
00:39:01.400 --> 00:39:06.000
identity starts to become validated and become popular, it's now

677
00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:09.440
in everybody else's interest to attack that and contradict it

678
00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:12.639
so they can siphon off that validation and popularity themselves.

679
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:16.360
And so it just creates this incredibly fragmented and contentious

680
00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:20.719
culture where all of the incentives are lined up to

681
00:39:20.760 --> 00:39:23.840
not cooperate, to not listen to each other, to not

682
00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:27.639
have good faith towards the other person. And then you

683
00:39:27.679 --> 00:39:30.800
combine that with a bunch of increasingly lonely people with

684
00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:35.719
identity crises, and I think you get our modern political situation.

685
00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:37.000
Mark.

686
00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:38.559
I want to pick up on something you said there

687
00:39:38.599 --> 00:39:40.920
because that is so true. Particularly you know, I've got

688
00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:43.119
a podcast down, I've got books out, and there is

689
00:39:43.159 --> 00:39:46.320
that it's a fear that I'll put something out there

690
00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:48.880
and somebody's going to judge me, criticize me. Now, some

691
00:39:48.920 --> 00:39:51.480
people care more about that than others. You said, You've

692
00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:53.119
got a lot of people who just told you that

693
00:39:53.159 --> 00:39:56.119
you're stupid, and that didn't bother you. But it does.

694
00:39:56.360 --> 00:39:58.519
It does bother a lot of people. Yeah, Like, and

695
00:39:58.559 --> 00:40:02.079
everybody's everybody's a critic. Yeah, And that's a huge platform

696
00:40:02.119 --> 00:40:03.599
now for people to jump all over. So how do

697
00:40:03.639 --> 00:40:04.800
we what do we do about that?

698
00:40:05.960 --> 00:40:07.960
So there, I think there's two things here. I mean,

699
00:40:07.960 --> 00:40:10.719
one is just anything you do, there's there's gonna people

700
00:40:10.760 --> 00:40:12.360
some people are not gonna like it. And I think

701
00:40:12.440 --> 00:40:16.280
that that is just a fundamental fact of doing anything

702
00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:20.840
in the world that we all have to overcome to

703
00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:23.679
a certain extent. And I know, as a creative person,

704
00:40:25.159 --> 00:40:26.960
you know, putting my work into the world, like it

705
00:40:27.199 --> 00:40:28.719
took me a while to kind of come to terms

706
00:40:28.719 --> 00:40:30.800
of that. Are like, look, you know, no, not everybody's

707
00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:32.400
gonna love my books. Some people are going to really

708
00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:35.159
dislike it. That's fine. Some people are gonna think I'm stupid,

709
00:40:35.880 --> 00:40:40.679
that's fine. That's one level. I think that the second

710
00:40:40.760 --> 00:40:43.920
level that is starting to happen today is that there's

711
00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:48.039
this moral criticism that is becoming commonplace. So it's not

712
00:40:48.159 --> 00:40:51.920
just that somebody dislikes my writing, it's that I am

713
00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:56.719
a fascist. It's not just that somebody thinks disagrees with me,

714
00:40:56.960 --> 00:41:03.039
it's they think I'm a liar and uh, knowingly exploiting people.

715
00:41:03.840 --> 00:41:08.320
And that's becoming much more commonplace today. And so that

716
00:41:08.320 --> 00:41:11.280
that to me is a social issue, Like there's something

717
00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:15.440
what is it about our culture today that is making

718
00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:23.159
it okay too to moralize everything? Because I don't think

719
00:41:23.159 --> 00:41:26.320
we want to moralize everything. I think we need that

720
00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:29.519
we should be very careful about what we moralize. But

721
00:41:30.079 --> 00:41:34.079
for whatever reason, you know, the the nature of the

722
00:41:34.119 --> 00:41:36.960
internet and technology right now is it's it's pushing us

723
00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:38.280
towards moralizing everything.

724
00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:41.119
I see that a lot too, and I do. I

725
00:41:41.159 --> 00:41:43.199
think that is such a big problem today. And reading

726
00:41:43.280 --> 00:41:47.760
your book really gave me a kind of a pose

727
00:41:47.800 --> 00:41:51.000
to reflect on myself, because we do we moralize people

728
00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:55.719
for their political No longer just disagree politically. We moralize

729
00:41:55.719 --> 00:41:59.320
people for their political preferences. Yes, we are in such

730
00:41:59.440 --> 00:42:02.320
and not just politics, you know, religion, there's a lot

731
00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:07.039
of that us versus them. Do you think we seem

732
00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:10.719
to be losing the ability to respectfully disagree, to be

733
00:42:10.760 --> 00:42:13.440
able to hold space for a bunch of different viewpoints.

734
00:42:13.639 --> 00:42:16.280
Either you're right or you're wrong, and if you're wrong,

735
00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:18.679
you're lose it and you're an awful person and you're

736
00:42:18.679 --> 00:42:23.519
a bigot and you're yes, you know absolutely, And the Internet,

737
00:42:23.840 --> 00:42:26.440
I think you would you agree that social media has

738
00:42:26.480 --> 00:42:27.920
particularly exacerbated that.

739
00:42:28.280 --> 00:42:31.960
Oh totally, yeah, because it's people don't even read the

740
00:42:32.039 --> 00:42:37.239
article half the time, they read the title and they're

741
00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:39.480
just like, ah, this journalist is a bigot, you know.

742
00:42:39.639 --> 00:42:43.719
It's it's a yeah, it's a huge problem. And it's

743
00:42:45.480 --> 00:42:48.800
what's interesting too, you know, I think it's a misconception.

744
00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:52.679
People think that we're becoming more polarized. When I was

745
00:42:52.679 --> 00:42:55.079
doing research for this book, like I what fascinating me

746
00:42:55.199 --> 00:42:56.840
is that we're actually, at least in the US, we're

747
00:42:56.840 --> 00:42:59.719
not more polarized than we were thirty forty years ago.

748
00:43:00.360 --> 00:43:04.039
It's what's changed is the moralization. So in the nineteen eighties,

749
00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:08.519
conservatives still were pro life and wanted small government and

750
00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:14.119
you know whatever, Liberals still wanted more welfare programs and whatever.

751
00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:17.119
It's just they were willing to talk to each other.

752
00:43:17.119 --> 00:43:19.519
They didn't think the other side was evil and like

753
00:43:19.960 --> 00:43:24.199
fucking everybody over and today that like, that's what's changed,

754
00:43:24.360 --> 00:43:29.880
is that there's this moralization of different political viewpoints, I think. So,

755
00:43:29.960 --> 00:43:32.599
I think there's a few things that we need to

756
00:43:32.599 --> 00:43:34.199
be aware of and we need to be doing to

757
00:43:34.280 --> 00:43:38.800
kind of attack this. But I think one of them

758
00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:46.840
is simply reprioritizing face the face engagement with people, especially

759
00:43:46.840 --> 00:43:50.480
people that we wouldn't normally engage with or or talk to.

760
00:43:52.039 --> 00:43:56.400
I think part of the problem of you know, social

761
00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:58.320
media has a lot of problems in and of itself,

762
00:43:58.360 --> 00:44:01.519
but I think there there are some unnoticed side effects,

763
00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:04.480
which is just that people don't go out and hang

764
00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:09.599
out with random strangers that they wouldn't normally meet as often.

765
00:44:11.320 --> 00:44:14.760
People stick within the same groups that they're comfortable in,

766
00:44:14.920 --> 00:44:17.519
and this kind of comes back to like seeking discomfort.

767
00:44:17.719 --> 00:44:20.079
So, Mark, what I'm really interested to know is, like

768
00:44:20.519 --> 00:44:23.119
for you in writing the book, in coming around and

769
00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:25.239
speaking on stages, like what is the message that you

770
00:44:25.400 --> 00:44:27.800
really want people to take away? What do you want

771
00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:29.760
people to go and do differently or think about differently?

772
00:44:30.840 --> 00:44:33.840
I think I would sum it up with the goal

773
00:44:34.119 --> 00:44:38.280
for most of human history was to do more, accumulate

774
00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:42.199
more learn more, just more and more and more. I

775
00:44:42.199 --> 00:44:46.159
think in the twenty first century, given the abundance of

776
00:44:46.760 --> 00:44:49.559
all the information opportunities, the name of the game is

777
00:44:49.599 --> 00:44:53.079
finding less, finding your less, you know, what are the

778
00:44:53.159 --> 00:44:55.840
handful of things that you trust, that are important to

779
00:44:55.880 --> 00:44:57.519
you and that matter to you, and then getting good

780
00:44:57.559 --> 00:45:01.559
at cutting out all the distractions. And again it's on

781
00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:06.159
a personal level, I think it's it's the only way

782
00:45:06.199 --> 00:45:09.599
to combat a lot of you know, the kind of

783
00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:12.840
the epidemics of distraction, anxiety, FOMO, a lot of these

784
00:45:12.880 --> 00:45:16.599
things that we're seeing. It's it's the only way to

785
00:45:16.679 --> 00:45:20.719
kind of maintain your productivity in purpose in the face

786
00:45:20.760 --> 00:45:24.199
of all the noise going on. And then more socially,

787
00:45:24.239 --> 00:45:29.159
it's it's it's I mean, I think if if the

788
00:45:29.239 --> 00:45:34.079
incentives are lined up in our culture to radicalize us,

789
00:45:34.760 --> 00:45:38.840
cut us off from each other, take like double down

790
00:45:38.840 --> 00:45:40.800
on our views and not listen to each other, then

791
00:45:40.840 --> 00:45:42.920
we need to opt out of that system, you know,

792
00:45:43.039 --> 00:45:45.199
like get off social media. Not you don't have to

793
00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:50.280
get off completely, but like cut out your use, read

794
00:45:50.360 --> 00:45:53.679
less news, only read things that are really important or

795
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:58.679
that are well researched, go outside, see people face the face,

796
00:45:58.960 --> 00:46:03.440
join groups, meet people, find people who have different views

797
00:46:03.519 --> 00:46:05.639
and like hang out with them, go get a beer

798
00:46:05.719 --> 00:46:09.000
or something, you know, Like it's it sounds so fashion

799
00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:13.760
and basic, but like it really is. I think it

800
00:46:13.880 --> 00:46:20.039
really is an issue. It's people aren't getting that classic

801
00:46:20.079 --> 00:46:23.760
face to face contact and sense of community that they

802
00:46:23.880 --> 00:46:26.239
once had, and we need to try to get back

803
00:46:26.280 --> 00:46:26.480
to that.

804
00:46:27.119 --> 00:46:29.599
Yeah, that's really interesting. It's a great point. And I

805
00:46:29.599 --> 00:46:32.199
think for so long we've talked about we know the

806
00:46:32.199 --> 00:46:34.920
importance of social connection and belonging in and we've often said,

807
00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:37.360
you know, well, you know, find people with really similar values,

808
00:46:37.360 --> 00:46:39.280
and maybe we need to shift it back in the

809
00:46:39.320 --> 00:46:41.239
other direction a little bit and find people who well,

810
00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:43.639
not that they don't have different values, but different but

811
00:46:43.719 --> 00:46:48.400
different opinions. Sure, and get back to that willingness to

812
00:46:48.400 --> 00:46:49.000
be able.

813
00:46:48.800 --> 00:46:51.239
To because we could have the same we could have

814
00:46:51.320 --> 00:46:53.400
the same value, but just disagree on how to get.

815
00:46:53.239 --> 00:46:56.039
There, how to get there exactly. Mark, I so appreciate

816
00:46:56.039 --> 00:46:57.599
you making the time to come on. This has been

817
00:46:57.639 --> 00:47:00.719
a really, really great discussion and I know our listeners

818
00:47:00.719 --> 00:47:01.360
are going to love it.

819
00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:02.239
Thanks for having me.

820
00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:09.760
If you haven't read Mark's books, they are available at

821
00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:12.000
all good bookstores or You can find more of his

822
00:47:12.079 --> 00:47:19.719
work online at Markmanson dot net. My new book, Crappy

823
00:47:19.760 --> 00:47:22.079
to Happy, Love What You Do is out in all

824
00:47:22.119 --> 00:47:24.440
good bookstores, so if you want to find more happy

825
00:47:24.440 --> 00:47:27.719
in work, go and check it out. Coming up on

826
00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:30.960
the next episode is Amy Shepherd from the band Shepherd,

827
00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:33.920
who is taking the world by storm with her kiss

828
00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:37.559
My Fat Ass movement, encouraging women everywhere to love the

829
00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:38.440
skin they're in.

830
00:47:40.159 --> 00:47:42.920
Crappy to Happy is presented by Cast Dunn, produced by

831
00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:45.880
Davis Vilenski, Audio production by Darcy Thompson.

832
00:47:51.079 --> 00:47:51.559
Listener