Nov. 15, 2020

Optimising Your Digital Wellbeing with Dr Kristy Goodwin

Optimising Your Digital Wellbeing with Dr Kristy Goodwin
The player is loading ...
Optimising Your Digital Wellbeing with Dr Kristy Goodwin
Optimising Your Digital Wellbeing with Dr Kristy Goodwin
Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon Castro podcast player icon PocketCasts podcast player icon Podchaser podcast player icon
Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon Castro podcast player icon PocketCasts podcast player icon Podchaser podcast player icon
Season 6 Goals & Habits Mindfulness & Acceptance Physical Health

Kristy Goodwin sheds light on how our use of technology is affecting our productivity and attention and offers realistic advice for setting reasonable boundaries and regaining our mental space. Kristy gives host Cass Dunn great advice for how we can help our kids develop a healthier relationship with technology, why banning devices is neither realistic nor particularly helpful and what we can do instead.www.drkristygoodwin.com
Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypodwww.tiktok.com/crappytohappypod
Join the free 7-day Happiness Challenge:www.cassdunn.com/happiness

Connect with Cass:

www.cassdunn.com
www.instagram.com/cassdunn_xo

Contact Crappy to Happy:

Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
www.crappytohappypod.com
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypod
www.tiktok.com/@crappytohappypod


Are you a coach, therapist, service provider or solopreneur struggling with self-doubt and imposter syndrome? I'd love to talk to you! (for market research purposes only!)

Book a call with me to share your experience.

Want more great content and less ads?

Upgrade to Paid in the Spotify or Apple podcasts App to get immediate access to "Beyond Happy", the subscriber only podcast featuring bonus content, meditations and more!

Transcript
WEBVTT

1
00:00:02.680 --> 00:00:03.960
A listener production.

2
00:00:08.279 --> 00:00:11.279
Hey there, you're listening to Crappita Happy. I'm cast done.

3
00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:14.720
I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist, a mindfulness meditation teacher

4
00:00:14.919 --> 00:00:18.000
and author of the Crappita Happy books. In this show,

5
00:00:18.079 --> 00:00:21.879
I introduce you to interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are

6
00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:24.399
experts in their fields, with the hope that the insights

7
00:00:24.399 --> 00:00:27.039
and experiences they share can help you to feel a

8
00:00:27.079 --> 00:00:30.839
whole lot less crappy and more happy. And today I

9
00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:34.200
am very excited to be talking to doctor Christy Goodwin,

10
00:00:34.359 --> 00:00:37.399
who is one of Australia's leading digital health, well being

11
00:00:37.439 --> 00:00:40.759
and productivity expert. She also happens to be a mum

12
00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:43.079
who knows full well what it's like to deal with

13
00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:47.000
kids techno tantrums. Christy is the author of Raising Your

14
00:00:47.039 --> 00:00:49.359
Child in a Digital World, and what I love about

15
00:00:49.399 --> 00:00:52.000
her is that she doesn't suggest that we ban the

16
00:00:52.039 --> 00:00:57.479
iPhone or offer other entirely unrealistic solutions. At a time

17
00:00:57.520 --> 00:00:59.719
when we are all working harder than ever to put

18
00:00:59.719 --> 00:01:03.399
limit on our screen time while also relying so heavily

19
00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:06.840
on our devices for our social connection and working from home,

20
00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:10.480
Christie's advice is more important than ever, and so I

21
00:01:10.519 --> 00:01:12.879
hope that you get as much out of this conversation

22
00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:17.040
as I did. I have been dying to talk to

23
00:01:17.079 --> 00:01:21.079
you for a long time, but especially now after the

24
00:01:21.159 --> 00:01:24.319
year that we have had so Christy, I think we've

25
00:01:24.359 --> 00:01:26.760
all become a lot more aware of the negative impacts

26
00:01:26.760 --> 00:01:28.920
of too much technology. You know, we've all been on

27
00:01:28.959 --> 00:01:33.719
that path of pulling back and having digital detoxes. But

28
00:01:33.879 --> 00:01:38.719
now we're in this world where we're basically being forced

29
00:01:38.879 --> 00:01:41.680
onto our screens to live our lives. All of our

30
00:01:41.719 --> 00:01:44.879
socializing is online. Everybody's working from home and has to

31
00:01:44.920 --> 00:01:48.319
be online. What do you make of this, like this

32
00:01:48.359 --> 00:01:50.239
whole new world that we're living in. That's a very

33
00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:52.000
broad question, but look.

34
00:01:51.840 --> 00:01:55.000
I think we all agree that none of us are

35
00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:58.120
immune to the digital pool, whether you're a toddler, a teenager,

36
00:01:58.239 --> 00:02:00.439
or an adult. I think we would all, if we're

37
00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:03.640
really honest, admit that we're often tethered to technology. We

38
00:02:03.719 --> 00:02:06.959
find it so appealing, and that is for a whole

39
00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:09.599
host of reasons. You know, as you said, in this

40
00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:13.960
particular climate, our digital devices have been our portal for

41
00:02:14.159 --> 00:02:17.159
a leisure, they've been our portal for work, they've been

42
00:02:17.199 --> 00:02:22.120
our portal for connection and socialization, and all of us

43
00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:25.360
have relied on these digital devices for a plethora of reasons.

44
00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:28.639
But these devices that we all rely on have been

45
00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:33.639
very deliberately and intentionally designed to be psychologically appealing and

46
00:02:33.719 --> 00:02:35.719
to hook us into wanting to use them.

47
00:02:36.120 --> 00:02:37.520
So I think we feel the tug.

48
00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:41.639
You know, we couldn't imagine doing lockdown without our digital appendages.

49
00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:44.599
But we also recognize that it's really hard to switch

50
00:02:44.639 --> 00:02:47.120
off and that they're often having, if we're really honest,

51
00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:49.919
a negative impact on many facets, you know, on our

52
00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:52.919
mental health, on our physical wellbeing. So I think what

53
00:02:52.960 --> 00:02:54.960
you described, I call it the digital dilemma.

54
00:02:55.400 --> 00:02:57.599
You know, you can't live it's hard to live with it,

55
00:02:57.680 --> 00:03:00.240
and it's hard to live without it. And how do

56
00:03:00.280 --> 00:03:00.879
we you know what.

57
00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:04.840
I'm actually someone that doesn't suggest digital detoxes. I think

58
00:03:04.879 --> 00:03:07.479
we've got to whether we love it or loughverit, the

59
00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:09.599
technology is here to stay. So we have to leverage

60
00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:12.800
the benefits it offers us and mitigate the potential pitfalls.

61
00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:14.759
And that means we have to find the best ways

62
00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:18.680
to use it, not promote digital abstinence or amputation, especially

63
00:03:18.680 --> 00:03:19.560
if you've got kids.

64
00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:20.879
It just will not work.

65
00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:25.800
Yes, I definitely want to talk too specifically about kids

66
00:03:26.039 --> 00:03:28.680
and devices. I have a fourteen year old daughter, so

67
00:03:28.759 --> 00:03:32.080
she's very much super glued to her phone.

68
00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:34.000
But let's just go back.

69
00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:38.000
You said there are all of these potential negative consequences

70
00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:40.280
of too much time on our technology, and that they're

71
00:03:40.280 --> 00:03:41.360
designed to keep us hooked.

72
00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:43.280
Can you just dig in a little bit for.

73
00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:47.319
Us about what some of those negative effects are on

74
00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:49.879
our physical, mental, emotional well being.

75
00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:52.599
Absolutely so the research tells us.

76
00:03:52.639 --> 00:03:55.240
And obviously it depends on how we're using it and

77
00:03:55.560 --> 00:03:57.680
for how long and what platforms, so it's hard to

78
00:03:57.759 --> 00:04:02.199
make broad generalizations. But globally speaking, we know that if

79
00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:05.360
we are using whether we're adults or talking about children,

80
00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:08.879
if we're using technology excessively or at the wrong times

81
00:04:08.919 --> 00:04:10.919
of the day or in the wrong ways, it can

82
00:04:10.919 --> 00:04:13.400
have a negative impact on our physical health and mental

83
00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:13.840
well being.

84
00:04:13.879 --> 00:04:16.000
So in physical physical health, we.

85
00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:19.120
Know, for example, rates of myopia so near sightedness has

86
00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:21.519
increased in the last ten years.

87
00:04:21.319 --> 00:04:22.759
A very substantial increase.

88
00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:25.560
Now, our initial reaction was to point the blame and

89
00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:28.680
so too much screen time, and there is definitely an

90
00:04:28.759 --> 00:04:32.040
element of that. But what new Australian research is suggesting

91
00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:35.639
that it's the displacement effect of our time on devices,

92
00:04:35.959 --> 00:04:39.160
and that is we're not getting enough time in natural sunlight,

93
00:04:39.240 --> 00:04:42.920
vitamin D. We know that vitamin D actually helps elongate

94
00:04:42.959 --> 00:04:47.319
the eyes and that can contribute to decreasing the likelihood

95
00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:51.720
of developing things like myopia. So often with technology, and

96
00:04:51.759 --> 00:04:55.040
this applies to all of the impacts, it's not necessarily

97
00:04:55.040 --> 00:04:58.079
the technology per se. Sometimes it can be, but it's

98
00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:02.279
often it's what it's superseding, what it's displacing. So, for example,

99
00:05:02.319 --> 00:05:05.639
when it comes to mental health, we know the particularly

100
00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:09.759
with young people, we have lots of media headlines decrying

101
00:05:09.800 --> 00:05:12.079
all the negative impacts that technology is having, and we

102
00:05:12.120 --> 00:05:15.519
blame social media and smartphones for the decline in young

103
00:05:15.519 --> 00:05:16.519
people's mental health.

104
00:05:17.000 --> 00:05:19.560
In particular. There's studies that show that there's.

105
00:05:19.399 --> 00:05:23.079
Definitely a correlation between smartphone and social media use and

106
00:05:23.079 --> 00:05:26.839
poorer mental health outcomes, but that research is only correlational.

107
00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:29.879
We don't know which way the directional arrow points. Is

108
00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:33.439
it that young people with existing mental health issues gravitate

109
00:05:33.480 --> 00:05:36.079
to the online world because it fulfills some of their

110
00:05:36.079 --> 00:05:39.279
psychological needs, or is it the other way around, where

111
00:05:39.319 --> 00:05:42.480
technology is actually causing some of these poor mental health outcomes.

112
00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:45.920
The researcher is still in its infancy in this regard.

113
00:05:46.279 --> 00:05:48.040
But when it comes to mental health, I think it's

114
00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:52.199
what our digital devices are displacing that's having the negative impact.

115
00:05:52.319 --> 00:05:56.279
We know, for example, young people primary school, secondary school,

116
00:05:56.319 --> 00:06:00.480
and even adults, our sleep is diminishing both quantity and

117
00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:02.839
and a lot of that can be attributed to our

118
00:06:03.160 --> 00:06:08.240
tech habits. We're often, myself included, guilty of scrolling before

119
00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:10.000
we go to bed, and we can talk in a

120
00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:11.639
moment about why it's so hard.

121
00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:12.360
To stop that scroll.

122
00:06:12.439 --> 00:06:15.240
There are some very clever design techniques that makes it

123
00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:17.560
near impossible. I don't know about ucas, but I'm often

124
00:06:17.600 --> 00:06:21.519
guilty of finding it impossible to stop that scroll late,

125
00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:23.199
not even though I'm tired, and even though I know

126
00:06:23.319 --> 00:06:25.639
I shouldn't be doing it, but there I am on Instagram,

127
00:06:25.959 --> 00:06:29.680
tapping and swiping away. So it's having a negative impact,

128
00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:32.680
particular in our sleep. It's having a very big impact

129
00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:36.519
on our interpersonal relationships, how we interact with other people.

130
00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:38.759
Numerous studies have shown that just the.

131
00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:41.560
Presence of your phone while you are having a conversation

132
00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:45.560
with somebody diminishes the quality and quantity of the conversation.

133
00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:47.680
Even if you don't pick it up. Just the mere

134
00:06:47.720 --> 00:06:51.639
digital presence impacts that we also know we are in

135
00:06:51.839 --> 00:06:56.680
leading incredibly sedentary lives, and now, especially if we're working

136
00:06:56.680 --> 00:06:59.000
from home or some hybrid model of working from home,

137
00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:01.959
we're often sitting down than we ever have and that

138
00:07:02.439 --> 00:07:05.240
decrease in physical activity means we're not making you know,

139
00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:08.720
the dopamine and serotonin that we often got from physical activity.

140
00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:11.839
And so there are a whole lot of cascading consequences

141
00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:15.639
because of our screen news. But again, demonizing technology of

142
00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:18.480
saying well, let's give it up is just completely unrealistic.

143
00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:19.759
So it's about it.

144
00:07:19.639 --> 00:07:22.040
Is it really is, and so it's about how do

145
00:07:22.120 --> 00:07:25.319
we find healthy boundaries, how do we use the technology

146
00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:27.480
but use it in ways that isn't going to have

147
00:07:27.639 --> 00:07:29.639
a negative impact on us.

148
00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:32.199
I wanted to pick up on something that you mentioned

149
00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:35.680
there about our distractability. I'm not sure that's the word

150
00:07:35.759 --> 00:07:39.240
that you used, but I went to grab my phone

151
00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:42.040
yesterday when I was doing some work and I needed

152
00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:44.040
to do some maths, and I went to pick up

153
00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:48.199
my phone to do a simple addition add up some numbers,

154
00:07:48.439 --> 00:07:52.040
and fifteen minutes later, somehow I was on Instagram reading

155
00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:56.600
messages then randomly googling something that I'd seen.

156
00:07:57.040 --> 00:07:59.759
What is happening here? And we have a bit of a.

157
00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:02.560
Joke in our household that we've all become goldfish. We

158
00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:07.319
have about a four second attention span. Is that something

159
00:08:07.839 --> 00:08:11.319
that we're all experiencing because of our technology?

160
00:08:11.399 --> 00:08:14.120
Use absolutely what you described. Then I call it the

161
00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:17.560
digital rabbit hole. And it is so easy for us

162
00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:20.759
to go down that digital rabbit hole. And so one

163
00:08:20.759 --> 00:08:22.800
of the things, I mean, there's so many strategies we

164
00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:24.639
can put in place, and I'm sure we'll get to that,

165
00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:28.680
but just think the choice. The strategic color of the

166
00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:33.840
icons have been designed by psychologists to be psychologically appealing.

167
00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:37.200
When Steve Jobs released the first iPod Touch, in his

168
00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:40.000
press release, he said he wanted the icons to be

169
00:08:40.039 --> 00:08:44.080
so appealing that users wanted to lick this their devices.

170
00:08:44.639 --> 00:08:45.519
So that tells you.

171
00:08:45.480 --> 00:08:49.679
About something about the intentional design. The fact that our

172
00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:53.320
notification bubble is usually red and has a number in it.

173
00:08:53.399 --> 00:08:55.240
You know that metric and color.

174
00:08:55.000 --> 00:08:58.600
Choice is some of the subtle ways, but very powerful

175
00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:02.480
ways that gets us hooked in to constantly checking the

176
00:09:02.519 --> 00:09:05.519
fact that we have alerts and notifications pinging and coming

177
00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:09.720
to us constantly tricks our brain into thinking that everything

178
00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:12.159
is urgent and important. We have a brain that is

179
00:09:12.200 --> 00:09:15.919
hardwired to seek novelty and always find new and interesting things,

180
00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:18.159
and when we are constantly being.

181
00:09:17.960 --> 00:09:19.840
Bombarded, our brain doesn't know.

182
00:09:19.799 --> 00:09:23.720
How to cope because we basically have ancient paleolithic brains

183
00:09:23.799 --> 00:09:26.279
that were designed to go out and forage and hunt

184
00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:29.799
for information. But now the exact opposite is happening. The

185
00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:33.240
information is coming to us constantly. And I often refer

186
00:09:33.279 --> 00:09:36.200
to this as infobesity. You know, we are literally drowning

187
00:09:36.279 --> 00:09:37.600
in information constantly.

188
00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:41.960
That is such an interesting term, infobesity. You're so right,

189
00:09:42.039 --> 00:09:44.039
We're drowning in information.

190
00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:44.600
Yeah.

191
00:09:44.639 --> 00:09:47.279
The average adult now consumes the equivalent of three point

192
00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:50.759
four gigabytes of data every day, which is just mind blowing.

193
00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:53.000
And our brains have a finite as you know, a

194
00:09:53.039 --> 00:09:56.080
finite capacity. We've got a mental lobe that we can carry.

195
00:09:56.360 --> 00:09:59.159
And so when information is constantly bombarding us, and we

196
00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:02.120
have alerts and noteifications that ping and ding and trick

197
00:10:02.159 --> 00:10:05.200
our brain into thinking they're urgent and important, often we

198
00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:08.440
activate our sympathetic nervous system, and so we don't think

199
00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:12.279
logically about this. So we find ourselves picking up and scrolling.

200
00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:15.399
The fact that we never know, and one of the

201
00:10:15.559 --> 00:10:18.639
biggest reasons all of us, particularly kids, can get hooked

202
00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:23.279
on social media and virtual multiplayer video games, is because

203
00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:25.960
your phone and your digital devices that you love have

204
00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:28.440
been designed to be a little bit like a poker machine.

205
00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:31.720
They offer what we call intermittent variable rewards. So when

206
00:10:31.759 --> 00:10:35.320
you dived into your Instagram inbox yesterday or DMS.

207
00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:36.480
And you work quite.

208
00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:38.879
Sure if there was going to be something interesting or

209
00:10:38.919 --> 00:10:42.039
a kind message, or something a little controversial, and so

210
00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:45.600
it's that unpredictable reward ratio that gets us hooked into

211
00:10:45.639 --> 00:10:50.320
constantly checking. But the biggest design technique, and this is

212
00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:52.720
where I find it hard to go down the digital

213
00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:57.200
rabbit hole myself, is that these devices are a bottomless bowl.

214
00:10:57.480 --> 00:11:01.480
There's no stopping cube, there's no endpoint. We enter what

215
00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:05.240
I call the state of insufficiency. We never ever feel done.

216
00:11:05.320 --> 00:11:08.600
And I mean think about when you refresh Instagram or

217
00:11:08.879 --> 00:11:10.240
your social media, you ever.

218
00:11:10.120 --> 00:11:11.919
Get to the bottom of the if you can scroll

219
00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:13.320
and scroll and you never find the bottom.

220
00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:16.000
Yeah, it's like that, you know, those beautiful infinity pools

221
00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:18.639
that just seem to keep going and going and.

222
00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:19.799
Even just thig gesture.

223
00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:22.200
You know, when you refresh your social media feed, you

224
00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:26.039
pull down. It's the exact same action of pulling the

225
00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:29.120
lever on a poker machine. And so they are all

226
00:11:29.159 --> 00:11:33.840
these very subtle but very powerful techniques, and unfortunately a

227
00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:37.080
lot of our tech companies exploit these. You know, on

228
00:11:37.159 --> 00:11:42.159
YouTube now and most streaming services, the AutoPlay feature is

229
00:11:42.200 --> 00:11:44.919
the default setting, you know, how it rolls from one

230
00:11:44.919 --> 00:11:48.240
episode into another, and you plan to just watch one

231
00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:51.039
episode and before you know it, you're binge watching some

232
00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:53.000
trashy TV series.

233
00:11:53.559 --> 00:11:58.200
These devices have been deployed that way. So it's a

234
00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:01.399
hard battle. And that dot rabbit hole is something so

235
00:12:01.480 --> 00:12:02.679
many of us experience.

236
00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:06.639
When we talk about how much information we're consuming or

237
00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:10.879
partially consuming, perhaps I'm really curious to know how much

238
00:12:10.919 --> 00:12:15.120
of that we're actually retaining and for us as well

239
00:12:15.159 --> 00:12:15.600
as our.

240
00:12:15.559 --> 00:12:18.000
Kids, you know, how, what about our.

241
00:12:17.919 --> 00:12:20.519
Capacity to actually retain information?

242
00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:23.039
So there's two things I want to talk about here.

243
00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:26.120
One is there's a it's a colloquial term, but there

244
00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:29.879
is research to substantiate it. We know that most of

245
00:12:29.960 --> 00:12:33.279
us adults and children are suffering from digital dementia. Our

246
00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:36.759
memory making capacity is diminishing. Cas do you know more

247
00:12:36.759 --> 00:12:39.320
than three phone numbers without picking up your contact list?

248
00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:40.399
No?

249
00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:40.960
I do not.

250
00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:43.360
And remember when we were kids, we did. We remembered

251
00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:47.240
everybody's phone number off by heart. But now wouldn't have

252
00:12:47.240 --> 00:12:47.720
a clue.

253
00:12:47.879 --> 00:12:52.200
No, if I asked you to recall six steps to

254
00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:54.919
get to a particular location, would you be able to remember?

255
00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:57.600
You know, turn right here, go down about two hundred

256
00:12:57.600 --> 00:12:58.600
meters chuckle left.

257
00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:03.879
Like to think I could remember six steps.

258
00:13:04.679 --> 00:13:06.679
I haven't been tested lately because we have Google Maps

259
00:13:06.679 --> 00:13:07.480
for last exactly.

260
00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:10.679
And so what we're doing as humans, and this can

261
00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:13.399
be both a positive and a negative. We're offloading some

262
00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:17.200
of our memory making capacity to technology, and so we've

263
00:13:17.200 --> 00:13:19.879
got to figure out what is worthwhile offloading.

264
00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:21.080
You know, some of that redundant information.

265
00:13:21.159 --> 00:13:23.200
You know, I really don't need to hold my grocery

266
00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:25.759
list in my head, so that is a perfect task

267
00:13:25.799 --> 00:13:29.240
for me to offload to technology. But other times there

268
00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:32.000
is really important information that I do need to recall.

269
00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:35.320
And given that my brain has a finite load or capacity,

270
00:13:35.799 --> 00:13:39.720
and we are drowning in this infobesity culture, we are

271
00:13:40.039 --> 00:13:42.519
diminishing our capacity to memorize things.

272
00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:43.840
The second thing.

273
00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:46.159
That we know because we are, as you described it,

274
00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:50.440
that continuous partial attention. We think we're multitasking, but we're not.

275
00:13:51.279 --> 00:13:51.600
Men.

276
00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:54.240
This is a global apology. You were right, women, We

277
00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:57.600
were wrong. Our brains simply cannot multitask. There has been

278
00:13:57.919 --> 00:14:01.399
such strong scientific evidence that tells us that multitasking is.

279
00:14:01.399 --> 00:14:03.879
A myth, but we all do it, particularly our kids.

280
00:14:04.679 --> 00:14:07.240
Our kids are studying and they've got their phone pinging,

281
00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:09.919
They've probably got music playing through their headphones. The TV

282
00:14:10.039 --> 00:14:12.840
is on in the background, and they've got six WhatsApp

283
00:14:12.919 --> 00:14:16.200
conversations and playing a multiplay video game at the same time.

284
00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:20.279
And the reason that we find that stressful, and the

285
00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:24.399
reason we can't retain the information, is because when we multitask,

286
00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:27.080
a couple of things happen. First of all, we burn

287
00:14:27.159 --> 00:14:29.720
through glucose, which is the energy supply in our brains,

288
00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:30.720
so we get really tired.

289
00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:32.320
I don't know do you do this, Cass.

290
00:14:32.559 --> 00:14:36.120
I try and debunk this myth all the time and multitask,

291
00:14:36.200 --> 00:14:39.480
and I feel so exhausted and depleted at the end

292
00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:41.039
of it because our brain's.

293
00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:44.320
Busy doing nothing. Yes I'm always busy, but achieving not

294
00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:45.039
very much.

295
00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:46.120
I'm ashamed to say.

296
00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:50.879
Wired and tired. Yes, yes, and so we are burning

297
00:14:50.919 --> 00:14:51.720
through glucose.

298
00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:54.799
The next thing that happens is we release cortisol, and

299
00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:58.799
cortisol's the stress hormone, and cortisole actually stops our neural

300
00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:01.360
pathways from forming. So when we are in a stress state,

301
00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:04.679
we can't actually retain information because our brain is just

302
00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:08.120
focused on dealing with the stress. The next thing that

303
00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:11.840
happens is that we send information to the wrong part

304
00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:14.200
of our brain instead of information going to our hip

305
00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:16.679
a campus, which is the memory center of our brain,

306
00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:19.960
when we multitask, we actually send information to a part

307
00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:23.480
of the brain called austriatum. Austriatum is good for short

308
00:15:23.559 --> 00:15:27.080
term procedural information, but if we want information to stick,

309
00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:29.159
if we want to be able to memorize it, it

310
00:15:29.159 --> 00:15:30.919
needs to go to the hip a campus, and it

311
00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:35.000
just does not go there when we multitask. So that's

312
00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:38.399
why our memory is diminishing. The information's coming at us

313
00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:41.840
thick and fast. I often liken it to a fire

314
00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:45.039
hydrant being sprayed, and we're standing there with our little

315
00:15:45.080 --> 00:15:47.519
memory with a plastic cup trying to catch this.

316
00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:52.720
I think we're so accustomed to living this way though,

317
00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:57.240
that probably for most of us, we don't really recognize

318
00:15:57.240 --> 00:16:01.200
it as being necessarily stressful. It's our sort of our

319
00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:06.120
normal these days, this kind of always on, always a

320
00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:09.200
bit jumpy, a bit agitated, a bit distractable.

321
00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:12.120
Absolutely, I think we have accepted that this is our

322
00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:14.799
common denominator now. And I mean you only need to

323
00:16:14.840 --> 00:16:18.919
ask someone how are you, and most people's instantaneous response

324
00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:24.840
is busy or stressed or done or overwhelmed. And again

325
00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:27.879
we know part of this is that we have, as

326
00:16:27.879 --> 00:16:31.399
I said before, those ancient paleolithic brains, they were never

327
00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:34.240
designed to be plugged in, switched on twenty four to seven.

328
00:16:34.759 --> 00:16:40.039
We need opportunities of digital disconnection. We need opportunities to

329
00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:43.679
what I call daydream. Neuroscientists call it the default mode

330
00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:45.559
of thinking, mind wandering.

331
00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:46.720
You know, when we used to.

332
00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:48.360
Stand at the bus stop and we didn't have our

333
00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:51.000
phone to pull out and scroll through, or you went

334
00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:53.080
for a run and you didn't decide to put your

335
00:16:53.080 --> 00:16:55.639
pods in and listen to a podcast. You just went

336
00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:58.000
for a run, So we had moments of white space.

337
00:16:58.519 --> 00:17:01.720
But now I think all of us, adults, kids included,

338
00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:05.839
we fill those pockets of white space with our digital appendages,

339
00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:09.119
so we never get that psychological rest.

340
00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:11.640
We also know that if we're trying.

341
00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:15.319
To navigate working from home arrangements or more flexible work arrangements,

342
00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:18.640
we often feel like we have to be constantly tethered

343
00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:22.039
to technology. There's a phenomenon I'm calling it digital presenteesm

344
00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:23.400
and it's this idea that.

345
00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:25.480
I need my colleagues to see that.

346
00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:29.039
I'm on Slack or I'm replying instantly to their messages

347
00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:31.960
or emails, really so that I can be visible that

348
00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:34.160
I'm doing my job because I'm not in an office

349
00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:38.319
where people can actually see what I'm doing, and so

350
00:17:38.359 --> 00:17:40.319
many of us I think this is really amplified in

351
00:17:40.359 --> 00:17:44.240
recent months, that feeling of always feeling stressed and burnt out,

352
00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:46.079
and whether we just accept that this is the way

353
00:17:46.119 --> 00:17:49.039
things are or whether we want to make changes.

354
00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:52.640
Obviously it's contingent upon the individual, just when we.

355
00:17:52.599 --> 00:17:54.079
Talk about that distractability.

356
00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:57.559
Cal Newport, I've read both of his books, he wrote,

357
00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:01.000
Deep Work and Digital Minimalism, which he does take a

358
00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:05.799
pretty hardcore approach to the remove all technology for thirty

359
00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:08.519
days and then kind of introduce back in what is.

360
00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:09.440
Really of value?

361
00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:12.240
I personally couldn't do that particularly not I run an

362
00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:15.599
online business, so there's that whole angle as well. But

363
00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:18.000
that idea of deep work is one that I find

364
00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:21.240
really interesting, That ability to sustain your attention on a

365
00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:26.680
task for a period of time, to engage in cognitively complex,

366
00:18:26.920 --> 00:18:32.160
challenging tasks and do work that's impactful. I feel like

367
00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:36.759
we're so busy with the shallow work of answering emails

368
00:18:36.839 --> 00:18:40.920
and whatever else. We're filling our times and reading five

369
00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:44.680
hundred word articles instead of reading books and listening to

370
00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:47.920
little bite sized bits of information, instead of immersing ourselves

371
00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:53.960
and really learning about a topic deeply. I think that's

372
00:18:54.039 --> 00:18:55.119
a huge problem.

373
00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:56.079
That's a huge shame.

374
00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:59.599
Absolutely, I'm glad you brought I'm a fan girl of

375
00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:02.480
Thought's work, perhaps like you're.

376
00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:03.759
Not with his extreme measures.

377
00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:06.920
We know, for example, the work on any sort of

378
00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:10.920
detox but particularly detoxes, tells us that they don't often

379
00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:12.839
result in long term behavioral change.

380
00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:15.039
It can often create a binge and purge cycle.

381
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:16.559
So many people say, you know, I'm going to have

382
00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:19.400
a weekend off technology, and they do, and they love

383
00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:22.240
it and they feel fantastic, but come Sunday night or

384
00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:25.559
come Monday morning, there's the you know, digital bombardment.

385
00:19:25.559 --> 00:19:27.680
You get the avalanche of emails that you've missed.

386
00:19:27.720 --> 00:19:30.359
There's all the social media notifications and we go through

387
00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:32.319
that binge and purge cycle.

388
00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:34.240
The other thing I wanted to say, and.

389
00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:37.119
You are exactly right, and the research is corroborating this.

390
00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:41.319
We no longer have opportunities for deep work. A study

391
00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:45.640
by Rescue Time analyzed one hundred and eighty million hours

392
00:19:45.640 --> 00:19:48.359
worth of knowledge workers time online. So these are people

393
00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:53.759
who are working basically on computers for their work, so accountants, lawyers,

394
00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:57.480
you know, knowledge based workers. And they found that the

395
00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:02.000
average adult can now focus for just six minutes before

396
00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:03.559
a distraction.

397
00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:04.279
Hijacks their attention.

398
00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:08.720
Now this is you know, obviously putting a big dent

399
00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:13.480
in our productivity. But we have lost the art of

400
00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:16.599
doing deep work. So I often say to people one

401
00:20:16.599 --> 00:20:19.400
of my key strategies is to figure out what I

402
00:20:19.480 --> 00:20:23.440
call your chronotype. So your chronotype is your biological predisposition

403
00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:25.640
to be awake and alert. So most of us fit

404
00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:28.759
into three categories. We're either an owl, a lark, or

405
00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:31.079
a middle bird. And I think most of us intuitively

406
00:20:31.400 --> 00:20:33.880
know which category we fit in. So if you wake

407
00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:36.920
up really early, in the morning and that's your prime time.

408
00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:40.319
You're you know, and I am. I'm a that's me. Yeah,

409
00:20:40.359 --> 00:20:42.519
I'm a lark. I'm sometimes embarrassed to admit it, but

410
00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:45.519
I'm a between four and four thirty am natural waker.

411
00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:48.480
Get me to do anything in our time and I'm

412
00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:49.640
almost like a zombie.

413
00:20:50.079 --> 00:20:54.880
So I get what we need to do is I say,

414
00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:57.880
we have to build a fortress around our focus during

415
00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:00.079
our mental prime time. So it's not about saying you

416
00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:03.119
turn off all all alerts and notifications and put your

417
00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:05.160
phone on do not disturb mode for the whole day.

418
00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:08.680
It's about reserving that mental prime time and saying, look

419
00:21:08.839 --> 00:21:10.640
for me. It's quite easy to do because no one's

420
00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:13.240
ringing me at four o'clock in the morning, but it's

421
00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:15.200
so easy to go down the digital rabbit hole. If

422
00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:17.319
I woke up and went in my inbox, it would

423
00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:20.119
be such a negative thing to do because that's not

424
00:21:20.200 --> 00:21:23.759
my deep work. So I really conscious about putting some

425
00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:26.000
strategies in place so that when it is my deep

426
00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:29.160
work time, when I'm going to power through the taxing,

427
00:21:30.039 --> 00:21:32.119
challenging work that I need to do, I make sure

428
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:37.000
I have got as many digital and human distractions switched

429
00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:42.039
off so that I'm not getting constantly bombarded, and you know,

430
00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:43.640
you only need to see the ping. I don't know

431
00:21:43.640 --> 00:21:45.079
about you, but if you know, if you've got your

432
00:21:45.079 --> 00:21:48.279
email notification that just dances across the right hand side

433
00:21:48.279 --> 00:21:50.799
of your screen, even if you don't open it, even

434
00:21:50.839 --> 00:21:52.920
if you don't click on it. If you've just switched

435
00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:54.880
your eyes and you go back to the task that

436
00:21:54.920 --> 00:21:58.640
you're doing, you leave what we call attention residue.

437
00:21:58.839 --> 00:22:01.279
So your thought is thinking, hang on, I saw that's

438
00:22:01.279 --> 00:22:02.079
from this client.

439
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:03.839
I wonder if that's going to be a positive or

440
00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:06.559
a negative message. And so you may not open it,

441
00:22:06.599 --> 00:22:09.640
but your attention has been diverted. And just a quick

442
00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:13.119
study found that once our attention is diverted, So say

443
00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:15.400
we're doing deep focused work and it might have been

444
00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:17.519
chatty Cathy when we were back in the office, you

445
00:22:17.559 --> 00:22:19.920
know Kathy that comes along and has says, have.

446
00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:21.559
You got a quick sect to talk about this?

447
00:22:22.039 --> 00:22:23.960
Or maybe you're working at home with kids or your

448
00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:26.559
partner or a pet and someone comes in just when

449
00:22:26.599 --> 00:22:30.119
you're in that prime time when your attention is diverted.

450
00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:31.680
It doesn't matter how it's diverted.

451
00:22:32.119 --> 00:22:35.720
It takes the average adult twenty three minutes and fifteen

452
00:22:35.799 --> 00:22:38.240
seconds to get back into that deep focused state.

453
00:22:39.079 --> 00:22:40.559
It's called the resumption lag.

454
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:43.359
So you could imagine how many times that's happening in

455
00:22:43.400 --> 00:22:43.880
your day.

456
00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:47.960
If you've got the impact on productivity huge, Christy is

457
00:22:47.960 --> 00:22:51.680
out the same for kids. Yes, So the study that

458
00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:54.599
I mentioned before with the six minute focus time, a

459
00:22:54.680 --> 00:22:59.480
completely different study conducted by Professor Larry Rosen looked at

460
00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:02.920
secondary school students and he said to them, I'm going

461
00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:04.759
to come, I'm going to send researchers home with you

462
00:23:04.839 --> 00:23:07.359
and just observe you for fifteen minutes doing your homework.

463
00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:10.440
So these kids knew they were being scrutinized or watched.

464
00:23:10.759 --> 00:23:13.480
Just go about your business as usual homework. So they

465
00:23:13.480 --> 00:23:15.240
had some of them did it online, some of them

466
00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:17.839
had written homeworks, some of them had their phones nearby.

467
00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:20.400
The average and these were kids, I think they were

468
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:24.079
aged thirteen to fifteen years could focus for just six

469
00:23:24.200 --> 00:23:28.480
minutes before they were distracted as well. So I mean,

470
00:23:28.519 --> 00:23:30.480
they were completely independent studies.

471
00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:32.920
But the fact is, I love it.

472
00:23:32.920 --> 00:23:34.960
Because often I speak to parents and we're always the

473
00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:36.519
first to sort of wag our fingers.

474
00:23:36.599 --> 00:23:37.400
Oh, kids these.

475
00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:39.720
Days got a terrible attention span, and when I share

476
00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:43.319
the rescue time studies, hang on, we're not much better either.

477
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:52.519
We're the goldfish. Christy.

478
00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:55.119
I'm really interested to go back to something you mentioned

479
00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:56.680
right at the beginning. This is a question that I

480
00:23:56.680 --> 00:23:58.960
think a lot of us as parents have about those

481
00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:03.079
links between social media use, especially for our kids.

482
00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:04.759
But I don't think it's just kids.

483
00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:09.440
And mental health issues depression, anxiety. I think for girls,

484
00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:14.319
particularly body image issues, and as you said, correlation doesn't

485
00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:16.799
necessarily equal causation.

486
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:20.119
What else do we know about that?

487
00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:23.880
I mean, should we be concerned about our kids potentially,

488
00:24:24.440 --> 00:24:27.680
you know, really suffering psychologically as a result of too

489
00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:28.839
much social media?

490
00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:29.160
Yes.

491
00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:32.000
Look, I think the biggest concern as it relates to

492
00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:35.920
mental health and our screen habits, particularly for young vulnerable people,

493
00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:39.559
is the displacement effect. So we know that, you know,

494
00:24:39.599 --> 00:24:42.039
the more time you're spending on your phone and on

495
00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:45.119
your social portals, the less time you are having often

496
00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:48.400
with real people in real time. So we know that

497
00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:53.400
we need real time into personal relationships with real people.

498
00:24:54.079 --> 00:24:56.839
We know our brain releases oxytocin, which is the social

499
00:24:56.880 --> 00:24:59.960
bonding hormone, when we're in close proximity and I think

500
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:02.759
I think during the lockdown, many of us realized, particularly

501
00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:06.440
those who had adolescents, how desperately they were craving being

502
00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:09.279
with their peer group. Yes, you could have a zoom call,

503
00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:11.599
or you could talk on house party or zoom, but

504
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:15.880
nothing beats that real connection that we are hardwired to have.

505
00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:17.279
And this is.

506
00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:21.000
Why social media and multiplayer video games have become so

507
00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:24.319
popular for young people because they tap into our number

508
00:25:24.359 --> 00:25:27.000
one psychological driver as humans, and that is the need

509
00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:29.680
to be part of a tribe. We are hardwired for

510
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:33.279
elational connection and this is why we as adults like email,

511
00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:36.640
why young people like social media and online games, because

512
00:25:36.680 --> 00:25:39.920
we get to be part of that group. We also

513
00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:42.920
get to experience autonomy in the online world, so we

514
00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:45.920
want to have some sort of control over what we're doing,

515
00:25:46.279 --> 00:25:49.799
and the online world gives our young people that perceived

516
00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:50.960
locus of control.

517
00:25:51.319 --> 00:25:53.799
Now, this can be both a positive and a negative.

518
00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:57.920
Thing, contingent upon what they're interacting and looking at. Now

519
00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:01.480
where it can be problematic, where for example, young people

520
00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:04.960
only ever need to look up one self harm video

521
00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:09.079
or one video that promotes negative body images, and thanks

522
00:26:09.160 --> 00:26:13.720
to the Google Recommendation algorithm, what populates their social media feed,

523
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:17.359
their sponsored posts that come into their feed, content that

524
00:26:17.559 --> 00:26:21.839
is geared towards that. Now, this is a huge problem

525
00:26:21.880 --> 00:26:25.039
for young people because we know the brain has what

526
00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:28.599
we call mirror neurons, so we are hardwired to imitate

527
00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:32.440
and copy what we see. And so when our young

528
00:26:32.519 --> 00:26:36.240
people are seeing social media posts that promote negative body

529
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:41.400
images or unhealthy body images, or in any other inappropriate content,

530
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:45.000
maybe it's self harm content, then because they have.

531
00:26:44.920 --> 00:26:47.920
Mirror neurons, it doesn't mean they'll necessarily.

532
00:26:47.319 --> 00:26:50.640
Imitate, but they are more likely to try and imitate

533
00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:54.680
some of those behaviors, particularly if they see their peer.

534
00:26:54.519 --> 00:26:57.880
Group being revered for doing so.

535
00:26:57.880 --> 00:27:00.200
So if they see one of their friends getting you know,

536
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:03.640
accolades or all that, we call them social media vanity metrics,

537
00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:07.160
if they posts get lots of likes or comments, this

538
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:11.440
can be hugely problematic. The other thing I think I

539
00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:14.480
touched on this earlier is we're more sedentary, so our

540
00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:17.319
young people aren't getting the physical activity that what they need.

541
00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:19.920
And there is a substantial body of research that says

542
00:27:19.960 --> 00:27:24.039
that poor sleep and poor physical movement are very strongly

543
00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:27.279
connected to poor mental health outcomes in young people. So

544
00:27:28.119 --> 00:27:30.920
it's hard to say, you know, how directly and if

545
00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:34.839
it is even causal or is it more correlational. Really,

546
00:27:35.079 --> 00:27:38.720
the research is in its infancy, but it's suffice to

547
00:27:38.759 --> 00:27:40.200
say I think it needs to be an issue that

548
00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:44.039
we need to monitor and be it intentional about how

549
00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:46.079
our young people use these platforms.

550
00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:49.799
That is really interesting what you just mentioned about the algorithm.

551
00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:52.000
Though I think most of us have watched the Social

552
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:56.880
Dilemma recently. I assume you have Christy about how you

553
00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:59.440
only need to look at one thing or search for

554
00:27:59.480 --> 00:28:03.480
one thing and it will just feed you more of

555
00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:07.720
the same. And I think even where as adults are

556
00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:12.000
not really savvy to that because it's so insidious, but

557
00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:15.039
our kids clearly are not going to be switched on

558
00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:15.799
to that.

559
00:28:16.440 --> 00:28:17.079
Absolutely not.

560
00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:19.839
And this is a contentious topic, but sometimes you don't

561
00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:23.079
even need to search for a particular topic. It can

562
00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:25.000
be in conversation, depending on.

563
00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:27.119
The series, always listening and during.

564
00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:30.000
This podcast recording, I have said particular things and Siri

565
00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:34.160
has popped up, so she's listening. She maybe doesn't want

566
00:28:34.200 --> 00:28:38.799
me talking about some of these ties. But that can

567
00:28:38.839 --> 00:28:41.480
be you know, that's a huge problem in and of itself,

568
00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:45.480
So I think that the fact that we're often unaware

569
00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:48.759
of this, and for our young people, given as they

570
00:28:48.839 --> 00:28:51.759
move from sort of their family unit as they're biologically

571
00:28:51.799 --> 00:28:53.920
meant to do as they hit adolescents and more towards

572
00:28:53.960 --> 00:28:57.519
their peer group. When they start seeing what their peer

573
00:28:57.519 --> 00:28:59.799
groups are posting that gets.

574
00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:02.920
You know, validation or notoriety online.

575
00:29:03.319 --> 00:29:05.599
Then because of those mirror neurons, they start to try

576
00:29:05.640 --> 00:29:08.200
and imitate that, and so it means many young people,

577
00:29:08.599 --> 00:29:10.680
I think one of the reasons we're seeing the increase

578
00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:13.759
in anxiety and depression is because they're succumbing to what

579
00:29:13.799 --> 00:29:16.119
I call the compare and to spare phenomenon.

580
00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:18.000
I'm comparing my.

581
00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:23.319
Reality with the a roll highlight reel that my peers

582
00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:27.359
or other people are posting online, and so it's so

583
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:30.759
easy to go down that rabbit hole of comparison. And

584
00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:33.720
because we have a negativity bias, we tend to see

585
00:29:33.799 --> 00:29:38.039
our reality is the inferior compared to what others are posting.

586
00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:42.400
And again all of us adults unimmune to that. But

587
00:29:42.519 --> 00:29:47.000
I just think that we at least better able to

588
00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:50.519
step back from that and critically kind of analyze that.

589
00:29:50.720 --> 00:29:53.720
Whereas I don't think kids everything that if it's on Google,

590
00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:57.000
it's true. If it's on the Internet, it's true. As

591
00:29:57.039 --> 00:29:58.960
far as my daughter's concerned.

592
00:29:58.599 --> 00:29:59.039
That's right.

593
00:29:59.079 --> 00:30:02.400
And the thing with with adolescents in particular is that

594
00:30:02.440 --> 00:30:05.200
they're wired to like if their peer group is online,

595
00:30:05.240 --> 00:30:08.359
they're going to gravitate more towards that. So it is

596
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:11.480
only natural that that holds more value in their eyes

597
00:30:11.559 --> 00:30:15.119
than what their parents or are their important significant others

598
00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:15.759
and suff.

599
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:18.119
Of course, I think the other thing Christy, just on

600
00:30:18.160 --> 00:30:20.759
the teenager topic, is that you know, we have had

601
00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:23.079
Facebook for quite a while. Most of us are on

602
00:30:23.160 --> 00:30:28.240
Instagram now, they're on TikTok, Snapchat and all of these

603
00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:31.640
other things. And I think parents can get concerned about

604
00:30:32.519 --> 00:30:36.160
platforms that we are not necessarily familiar with. Well, I

605
00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:39.079
haven't even touched on there's been a couple of recent incidents,

606
00:30:39.079 --> 00:30:43.000
but the recent live streaming of somebody's suicide and even

607
00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:46.160
the terrorist attacking christ Church, which was live stream, Like,

608
00:30:46.359 --> 00:30:47.839
how do we protect our kids from that? I don't

609
00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:51.200
know if there's an answer, but as parents, I think

610
00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:54.160
are we being overly concerned about these platforms that we're

611
00:30:54.200 --> 00:30:56.160
not necessarily familiar with ourselves?

612
00:30:56.240 --> 00:30:57.200
And do we need to be.

613
00:30:57.759 --> 00:30:59.839
My answer to that is that I often say to

614
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:02.160
you know, in our defense, we are the very first

615
00:31:02.200 --> 00:31:05.200
generation of parents who are raising I call them screenages,

616
00:31:05.960 --> 00:31:09.279
raising screen ages in this completely digital world. So we've

617
00:31:09.279 --> 00:31:11.759
got no frame of reference. So for most of us,

618
00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:14.920
we had unplugged childhoods. We stared at the sky, not

619
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:18.079
at a screen. We spent time with people, not with pixels.

620
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:21.920
And so as humans, our natural tendency when anything is

621
00:31:22.039 --> 00:31:23.240
new or foreign.

622
00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:25.200
Is for it to be for us to be fearful

623
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:25.440
of it.

624
00:31:25.480 --> 00:31:27.640
You know, when rock and roll music was introduced, we

625
00:31:27.640 --> 00:31:29.759
were told a whole generation of young people were going

626
00:31:29.799 --> 00:31:33.279
to become morally corrupt listening to this inappropriate music, and

627
00:31:33.319 --> 00:31:36.640
so we've sort of got this historical tendency for there

628
00:31:36.680 --> 00:31:37.559
to be moral panic.

629
00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:39.240
But I think in this space.

630
00:31:39.880 --> 00:31:43.440
You know, given what the content is that our young

631
00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:48.400
people are often consuming, and often unbeknownst to their parents,

632
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:49.599
then I think we.

633
00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:52.359
Do have a position to be concerned about.

634
00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:55.799
So my message always to parents is that you need

635
00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:59.920
to be the pilot, not the passenger, of the digital plane.

636
00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:02.160
Even that we know your young person doesn't have fully

637
00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:05.240
developed brain architecture to navigate the digital world, so they're

638
00:32:05.319 --> 00:32:08.759
much more likely to succumb to risks and the perils

639
00:32:08.759 --> 00:32:09.720
of the online world.

640
00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:13.440
So that means as the pilot that you help your

641
00:32:13.519 --> 00:32:14.319
child or your team.

642
00:32:14.359 --> 00:32:16.359
And I think there's three bs that you need to

643
00:32:16.359 --> 00:32:19.319
implement as a parent. The first one's boundaries, and I

644
00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:22.519
think for most parents we obsess over screen time and

645
00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:26.039
I encourage parents that is important, but it's not the

646
00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:28.400
only part of the equation. We have to have broader,

647
00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:31.359
more nuanced conversations and I think as you touched on CASS,

648
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:34.599
I think focusing on what is more important. You need

649
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:36.920
to know the digital playgrounds where your children are playing,

650
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:39.519
and you need to know what the risks are. Our

651
00:32:39.559 --> 00:32:43.119
Australian e Safety Commissioners website and the US they have

652
00:32:43.160 --> 00:32:46.559
common Sense Media. They're great tools for parents to go

653
00:32:46.599 --> 00:32:49.759
to to sort of critically evaluate these playgrounds where their

654
00:32:49.799 --> 00:32:53.160
children are playing. But we need boundaries also around when

655
00:32:53.319 --> 00:32:55.559
you know, times of the day have a huge impact

656
00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:58.680
on physical and mental health. Where are they using it?

657
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:00.200
You know, do you have some no go t tex

658
00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:02.920
zones in your house? And how are they using it?

659
00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:04.680
Are they using it in ways that's not going to

660
00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:07.119
compromise you know, we've touched on their vision, but also

661
00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:10.599
they're hearing and muscular skeletal health. The second bee that

662
00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:13.799
parents have to implement is basic needs, making sure that

663
00:33:13.880 --> 00:33:17.039
their child or their screen age's time isn't diminishing some

664
00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:20.559
of their basic physical and psychological needs. And the third

665
00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:23.920
need and I know this one's counterintuitive, but our kids

666
00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:26.960
and us two as adults, if I'm honest, need boredom.

667
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:31.400
We need opportunities to digitally disconnect. They're my three bees boundaries,

668
00:33:31.759 --> 00:33:33.880
basic needs and boredom. And I think if we can

669
00:33:33.960 --> 00:33:36.400
do that and focus less, I think, you know, to

670
00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:37.880
be honest, I think screen time is going to be

671
00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:41.039
a redundant concept in a few years because we've got

672
00:33:41.119 --> 00:33:46.720
wearable technologies, we've got artificial intelligence, virtual reality. Time to

673
00:33:46.759 --> 00:33:48.599
the world we live in, it is And so I

674
00:33:48.599 --> 00:33:51.440
think that's just such a narrow restrictive definition, and your

675
00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:53.079
child might hit I know a lot of parents say,

676
00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:55.000
you know, they only have an hour a day, but

677
00:33:55.119 --> 00:33:57.000
what have they spent with that hour? You know, what

678
00:33:57.160 --> 00:33:59.519
have they been doing? Is it helpful? Is it harmful?

679
00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:02.920
Is it a appropriate? So yeah, I think we need

680
00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:05.240
to assume an active role and be that pilot where

681
00:34:05.240 --> 00:34:05.880
we can.

682
00:34:06.279 --> 00:34:09.079
The approach that I tend to take you know, as

683
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:13.400
you said, we're all just winging it, really, But I

684
00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:16.880
have conversations with my daughter about screen time, but as

685
00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:19.639
you say, particularly about what apps she's spending time on,

686
00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:22.960
because her screen time might show a really high number,

687
00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:25.599
but a lot of that is listening to music and

688
00:34:25.639 --> 00:34:28.039
it's all counted in her screen time. So we've had

689
00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:32.360
conversations about breaking it down by which apps and what

690
00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:36.880
she's spending time on. And I personally find I don't

691
00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:40.679
go head to head with her. We just have conversations

692
00:34:40.760 --> 00:34:43.800
about how else she could be spending time. Or she's

693
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:47.639
spending time on snapchat talking to her friends, but you know,

694
00:34:47.719 --> 00:34:50.320
at what costs? As you said, what else is she

695
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:52.800
not doing while she's doing that? And I have found

696
00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:55.320
that she is pretty good. She comes to her own

697
00:34:55.440 --> 00:34:57.239
kind of conclusions. And she has just said to me

698
00:34:57.320 --> 00:35:00.639
this week that she's reduced her screen time on her

699
00:35:00.679 --> 00:35:04.320
phone of her own accord, bless her. And again we

700
00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:06.719
had the conversation about, well, you know, music's probably okay,

701
00:35:06.760 --> 00:35:08.679
but what could you be spending less time on and

702
00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:12.000
we were able to have that conversation together. I am

703
00:35:12.039 --> 00:35:14.440
aware that I'm in a very fortunate position there and

704
00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:18.079
other parents are tearing their hair out with trying to

705
00:35:18.199 --> 00:35:22.239
enforce boundaries. So what advice do you have for those

706
00:35:22.280 --> 00:35:25.719
parents whose kids are really really objecting. You know that

707
00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:27.920
kids are having tantrums. I know I should add that

708
00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:29.679
I did have a phase my daughter when she was

709
00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:33.039
about nine. She was we use the word addicted. I

710
00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:35.679
think she was quite addicted to Minecraft. She would get

711
00:35:35.840 --> 00:35:38.880
very upset if we tried to limit her her time

712
00:35:38.920 --> 00:35:41.119
on Minecraft, and again she came to her own conclusion

713
00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:44.039
and ditch that herself. But what about when they don't

714
00:35:44.119 --> 00:35:47.639
want to and it's up to us parents to enforce

715
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:48.719
those limits.

716
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:51.360
So I'm going to be really honest and say that

717
00:35:51.559 --> 00:35:54.320
if you're going to try and make changes, it will

718
00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:55.239
likely get worse.

719
00:35:55.079 --> 00:35:55.960
Before it gets better.

720
00:35:56.119 --> 00:35:58.760
I think you need to go in with realistic expectations

721
00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:01.960
because we know that for our young people, their time

722
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:05.639
online is pleasurable. So their brain is literally releasing dopamine

723
00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:10.000
and often other pleasurable neurotransmitters. So to take that out

724
00:36:10.039 --> 00:36:13.639
of their life can often result in really sometimes you know,

725
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:18.360
physically aggressive behavior. You can get the moody, broody, sulky behavior,

726
00:36:18.440 --> 00:36:22.440
depending on your child. So I think understanding what we

727
00:36:22.519 --> 00:36:27.159
can do, but also having realistic expectations is important. So

728
00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:30.239
often say to parents, when you're trying to adjust your

729
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:34.079
rules and habits around your kids' screen time, gets as

730
00:36:34.119 --> 00:36:37.199
you've suggested, cass, get their buy in, get them you know,

731
00:36:37.239 --> 00:36:39.679
pick your time of your day. Don't have this conversation

732
00:36:39.800 --> 00:36:42.559
at night because it will be met with no success.

733
00:36:43.480 --> 00:36:46.559
We know at nighttime we turn off our prefrontal cortex,

734
00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:49.159
so the logical part of the brain turns off and

735
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:52.000
our amigdala, which is our emotional hub, fires up. This

736
00:36:52.079 --> 00:36:54.320
is why we have more arguments with our spouse or

737
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:57.360
our kids at night. So next time I can say,

738
00:36:57.400 --> 00:36:59.400
next time your partner's picking a fight, just say, honey,

739
00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:02.559
my prefront cortex is off and mynig delary is firing,

740
00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:05.440
and they'll be so impressed with your fancy vocabulary.

741
00:37:05.599 --> 00:37:09.559
So I'll leave you alone, but with your kids, pick.

742
00:37:09.400 --> 00:37:11.360
Your time of the day to have this conversation. Have

743
00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:14.599
it in neutral territory. Get there, buy in. I have

744
00:37:14.719 --> 00:37:17.639
found I've worked with thousands of kids talking to them

745
00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:20.159
about digital well being, and it's a topic they obviously

746
00:37:20.199 --> 00:37:22.719
have a vested interest in, but they also have some

747
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:26.079
really powerful and clever insights, So I think we need

748
00:37:26.119 --> 00:37:30.960
to be receptive to those. Then I often say, make

749
00:37:31.119 --> 00:37:35.000
incremental changes and try and crowd out their unhealthy habits

750
00:37:35.239 --> 00:37:39.480
with some other habits. I'm a big fan of James

751
00:37:39.480 --> 00:37:42.679
Clear's Atomic Habits book, and he talks about how we

752
00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:45.639
can form how any habit is formed, but he often

753
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:48.599
talks about having a queue and having a reward and

754
00:37:48.679 --> 00:37:52.559
trying to make incremental changes that way. The reason when

755
00:37:52.639 --> 00:37:57.039
we talk about techno tantrums is these are some really practical,

756
00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:00.880
mum tested strategies to avoid the techno tantrum when you

757
00:38:00.920 --> 00:38:03.000
want your child to switch off. Rather than just going

758
00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:05.159
in and say turn it off, and let's be honest,

759
00:38:05.159 --> 00:38:07.199
they ignore you, and you go a few deserbelves higher,

760
00:38:07.239 --> 00:38:08.960
and then you're in there trying to wrestle it out

761
00:38:09.039 --> 00:38:12.559
from their grip. We need to call it's called priming

762
00:38:12.920 --> 00:38:15.320
or warn them, so saying to them, when you've sent

763
00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:18.039
this message, when this episode ends, when you've had this.

764
00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:20.079
Battle, I'd like you to turn it off.

765
00:38:20.239 --> 00:38:23.719
And it sounds really trivial, but just the act of

766
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:26.440
them powering it down or switching it off gives them

767
00:38:26.440 --> 00:38:28.079
that perceived sense of autonomy.

768
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:32.159
Or control. Then we need to have an appealing transition activity.

769
00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:34.800
So do not say to your son, you know, turn

770
00:38:34.840 --> 00:38:37.440
off Fortnite and go and do your math's homework. Don't

771
00:38:37.480 --> 00:38:39.000
tell your daughter to put a phone away and go

772
00:38:39.039 --> 00:38:40.000
and tidy her bedroom.

773
00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:42.920
They're not appealing transition activity. So choice of.

774
00:38:42.880 --> 00:38:45.559
Two two things you know that they like doing, and

775
00:38:45.639 --> 00:38:48.320
bonus points if it involves some sort of physical activity,

776
00:38:48.360 --> 00:38:50.360
because that will give them that, you know, surge in

777
00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:53.480
dopamine and serotonin. I think we need to give them

778
00:38:53.559 --> 00:38:56.719
cut off or transition points. For kids under eight, I

779
00:38:56.760 --> 00:38:58.960
often say don't give them an amount of time because

780
00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:01.800
most kids don't have a sexual understanding of what time

781
00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:04.000
is until they're somewhere between sort of eight and ten.

782
00:39:03.960 --> 00:39:04.760
Years of age.

783
00:39:04.960 --> 00:39:08.960
So instead give them quantities or episodes or battles that

784
00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:13.559
they can have online. Then I think encouraging them when

785
00:39:13.800 --> 00:39:16.119
they're coming off and they're combusting and they're declaring that

786
00:39:16.119 --> 00:39:18.519
you're the worst parent in the world because you won't

787
00:39:18.599 --> 00:39:20.480
let them have another four hours on their device.

788
00:39:20.920 --> 00:39:21.599
If you can, you.

789
00:39:21.639 --> 00:39:23.679
Might need to duck and weave see if you can

790
00:39:23.719 --> 00:39:26.800
touch them literally, you know, stroke their arms or cuddle

791
00:39:26.840 --> 00:39:29.840
them because you're giving them a head of dope. Sorry, oxytocin,

792
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:32.280
you're giving them that pleasure neurotransmitter.

793
00:39:32.360 --> 00:39:34.320
So there's simple things we can put in place.

794
00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:37.800
Doesn't mean they're always easy, but I think over time,

795
00:39:37.960 --> 00:39:40.440
if we can have those firm boundaries, our kids are

796
00:39:40.519 --> 00:39:43.960
much more likely to adhere to them and make those changes.

797
00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:46.599
But don't go in and make radical changes. I think

798
00:39:46.760 --> 00:39:50.800
take small bites and roll those changes out over time

799
00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:53.639
with your child's involvement, and you're much more likely to

800
00:39:53.679 --> 00:39:54.440
have success.

801
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:58.880
I think that's really good advice. I do hear sometimes

802
00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:00.800
of parents who or you know, my daughter will tell

803
00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:03.119
me about a friend of hers who doesn't have her

804
00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:06.760
phone this week because her phone's been removed for some reason,

805
00:40:06.840 --> 00:40:10.280
like as a consequence. And you know, it's not for

806
00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:13.360
me to judge anybody else's parenting, but I think, oh gosh,

807
00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:14.480
I don't think I could.

808
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:15.719
I could.

809
00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:16.800
I don't think I could do that.

810
00:40:17.320 --> 00:40:19.679
I never should on parents. I think parents get shout

811
00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:21.639
on all the time. So I like you, I think

812
00:40:21.719 --> 00:40:23.599
you know, once you're a parent, you need to make

813
00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:27.039
educated decisions. So I'm not for a moment telling any

814
00:40:27.079 --> 00:40:29.920
parent what you should be doing, but what the research

815
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:34.440
tells us is that if there's any perceived threat of

816
00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:37.400
digital amputation, our kids.

817
00:40:37.079 --> 00:40:40.400
From digital amputation. I love that, but continue, well, if.

818
00:40:40.280 --> 00:40:43.519
You're going to confiscate the iPad or the phone, our

819
00:40:43.639 --> 00:40:46.519
kids do not come to us when there is a problem.

820
00:40:46.840 --> 00:40:51.119
So overwhelmingly despite the wonderful programs rolled out in schools

821
00:40:51.199 --> 00:40:54.559
right through from prep to secondary school, where kids are

822
00:40:54.599 --> 00:40:57.000
told when you're a victim of cyber bullying, when you've

823
00:40:57.000 --> 00:41:02.199
seen something inappropriate, when someone is you know, sending you

824
00:41:02.239 --> 00:41:05.760
in appropriate content, when an online predator has approached you,

825
00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:08.239
go and tell a trusted adult. Kids will parrot that

826
00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:11.000
back to you. But in about eighty two percent of

827
00:41:11.000 --> 00:41:13.880
cyber bullying cases, young people do not go and tell

828
00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:16.719
a trusted adult because of the perceived threat that you're

829
00:41:16.719 --> 00:41:18.199
going to take away my technology.

830
00:41:18.760 --> 00:41:20.840
That's a really interesting oxygen.

831
00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:23.519
Supply, So they won't come to us. And so this

832
00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:24.039
is a one.

833
00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:26.519
This is a strategy often sharing parents seminars and I

834
00:41:26.559 --> 00:41:28.119
have parents flocking at the end of.

835
00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:29.519
The night saying, but I do that.

836
00:41:29.599 --> 00:41:31.480
I didn't know that was the wrong thing, and I

837
00:41:31.559 --> 00:41:34.039
live I love mayor Angelos saying when you know better,

838
00:41:34.679 --> 00:41:35.400
you do better.

839
00:41:36.039 --> 00:41:37.400
And so this is not to you.

840
00:41:37.320 --> 00:41:40.360
Know, cast dispersions or to make anyone feel riddled with guilt.

841
00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:44.199
But I think kids need boundaries. They certainly need boundaries,

842
00:41:44.199 --> 00:41:48.800
and we need consequences. But removal of devices will often

843
00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:51.079
only fracture the relationship with your kids.

844
00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:54.239
And Christy, we haven't even talked about this. Cyber bullying.

845
00:41:54.320 --> 00:41:57.000
Is that a whole other conversation. I mean, how do

846
00:41:57.079 --> 00:42:00.639
we monitor that we can ask them or they, as

847
00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:01.559
you say, they're not going.

848
00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:01.960
To tell us.

849
00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:05.119
Do we get in and hack in and read their messages?

850
00:42:05.239 --> 00:42:07.559
What do we do about that possibility?

851
00:42:08.039 --> 00:42:10.159
So as the pilot of the plane of the digital

852
00:42:10.199 --> 00:42:14.039
plane talking having ongoing conversations. So often parents say, oh,

853
00:42:14.039 --> 00:42:15.800
I've had the cyber safety talk, you know, a bit

854
00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:17.480
like when your parents, so I've had the sex talk.

855
00:42:17.519 --> 00:42:19.039
You sort of tick the box and go a few.

856
00:42:18.840 --> 00:42:21.880
Of that's done. This isn't like, this is an ongoing

857
00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:24.199
dialogue that you need to have with your kids. So

858
00:42:24.360 --> 00:42:26.760
reminding them if there is a problem, you know, come

859
00:42:26.800 --> 00:42:28.440
and talk to me. I'm here to help you.

860
00:42:29.039 --> 00:42:32.280
When they do come to you for a problem, try

861
00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:32.960
and conceal.

862
00:42:33.039 --> 00:42:34.800
This is why if you have botox that can work

863
00:42:34.840 --> 00:42:37.280
in your favor, try and conceal your shock or.

864
00:42:37.239 --> 00:42:39.039
Your horror or your dismay.

865
00:42:39.880 --> 00:42:43.239
When they present to you what the problem is, reassure

866
00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:46.559
them that you'll find solutions, particularly if it's related to

867
00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:49.000
cyber bullying. One of the worst things we can do

868
00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:51.079
is be dismissive. You know, I'll just turn your phone

869
00:42:51.079 --> 00:42:54.000
off or just ignore it because they can't. That's you know,

870
00:42:54.079 --> 00:42:59.679
completely unrealistic advice. The problem with cyber bullying, one of

871
00:42:59.679 --> 00:43:03.559
the men problems is that it's often hard to have

872
00:43:04.199 --> 00:43:09.239
identifying characteristics because often the characteristics or the signs, the

873
00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:13.119
warning signs of cyber bullying are very much congruent with

874
00:43:13.159 --> 00:43:16.119
what we would consider normal adolescent development. So if they

875
00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:20.800
become withdrawn normal stage of adolescent development, if they become

876
00:43:20.920 --> 00:43:24.480
less interested in aspects of their life they once showed

877
00:43:24.480 --> 00:43:26.920
an interest in, could be a normal stage of development.

878
00:43:26.920 --> 00:43:29.760
If there's changes in their sleep habits, or refusal to

879
00:43:29.800 --> 00:43:31.840
go to school, these can all be red flags for

880
00:43:31.880 --> 00:43:35.119
cyber bullying, but they can also be normal stages of development,

881
00:43:35.159 --> 00:43:38.880
so they're hard to sometimes disentangle. So I think it's

882
00:43:38.920 --> 00:43:42.360
again that ongoing relationship in regards to do I go

883
00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:45.679
and do a snoop, My thoughts on this are no

884
00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:48.519
for two reasons. One, I think we need to do

885
00:43:48.719 --> 00:43:51.880
definitely do I call them screen audits with your children,

886
00:43:52.280 --> 00:43:54.199
So sitting down with them and saying, hey, show me

887
00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:56.800
what's happening on Instagram now, They're not going to love it.

888
00:43:56.840 --> 00:43:59.159
I'm going to be honest, And I often say to

889
00:43:59.239 --> 00:44:01.119
parents when they quit, why are you're doing it? You

890
00:44:01.119 --> 00:44:03.679
say to them, if you've got nothing to hide, you've

891
00:44:03.679 --> 00:44:04.800
got nothing to hide.

892
00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:08.079
And the idea is over time. I've got three boys.

893
00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:10.159
I do not want to be going through their phones

894
00:44:10.199 --> 00:44:12.760
when they're sixteen, because I'm sure there will eventually be

895
00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:14.760
things on there that a mother just does not want

896
00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:18.719
to see. But in those initial stages, I think, particularly

897
00:44:18.760 --> 00:44:21.199
when we give kids access to technology early on, we

898
00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:22.960
have to have a hands on role. So doing the

899
00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:25.440
audit with them and talking to them. You know, how

900
00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:28.199
do you think that friend's message could have been misconstrued?

901
00:44:28.239 --> 00:44:28.400
You know?

902
00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:30.440
Is that a flattering photo to share of one of

903
00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:34.920
your friends. That's really important. What you won't see because

904
00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:38.159
of live streamed video now is what content your child

905
00:44:38.199 --> 00:44:40.480
has consumed. So many parents, how I do an audit

906
00:44:40.519 --> 00:44:42.880
with my child and I see what's in their dms,

907
00:44:42.920 --> 00:44:44.599
and I see what they're posting, and I see what

908
00:44:44.639 --> 00:44:47.400
they're commenting on, and I'm friends with them. What you've

909
00:44:47.400 --> 00:44:51.400
got no control over is what content they've consumed. I've

910
00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:54.199
had parents, you know, in the recent death by suicide

911
00:44:54.199 --> 00:44:56.599
that was streamed, parents of eight and ten year olds

912
00:44:56.679 --> 00:44:59.599
who were horrified to learn that their child had watched

913
00:44:59.639 --> 00:45:03.400
that video because they were on TikTok. So be that pilot.

914
00:45:03.599 --> 00:45:06.159
Do those audits with them. And the other reason I

915
00:45:06.199 --> 00:45:08.119
say that you should do the audits with them is

916
00:45:08.159 --> 00:45:11.400
because chances are your child or teen has installed an

917
00:45:11.440 --> 00:45:14.280
app that will silently.

918
00:45:13.960 --> 00:45:15.000
Take a screenshot.

919
00:45:15.039 --> 00:45:18.000
So it uses the forward facing camera, so any incorrect

920
00:45:18.079 --> 00:45:21.280
past codes that are entered, it will use the camera

921
00:45:21.400 --> 00:45:23.280
and it will take a photo and it hides it

922
00:45:23.320 --> 00:45:25.760
in a vault at So chances are if you've been

923
00:45:25.840 --> 00:45:27.760
doing the snoop while they're having a shower, if they

924
00:45:27.840 --> 00:45:29.360
leave their phone at home one day and you think

925
00:45:29.360 --> 00:45:31.639
I'm just going to do a quick check, chances are

926
00:45:31.679 --> 00:45:33.960
there's a whole lot of photos in the gallery.

927
00:45:33.519 --> 00:45:35.119
Of you with your you know, we all do the

928
00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:36.039
scrunched up.

929
00:45:38.039 --> 00:45:40.199
I'm not letting my daughter listen to this episode because

930
00:45:40.239 --> 00:45:41.320
if she wasn't aware of that.

931
00:45:41.400 --> 00:45:43.079
I don't want her to become aware of it.

932
00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:47.039
I just wanted to add in there that the best

933
00:45:47.800 --> 00:45:51.480
advice I ever got regarding that communication with my daughter

934
00:45:51.559 --> 00:45:54.880
was Bex Sparrow's Mother Daughter Journal, And it can be

935
00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:57.559
mother son journal, can be whatever journal, but the mother

936
00:45:57.679 --> 00:46:01.519
Daughter Journal we implemented after learning about it from Rebecca Sparrow,

937
00:46:01.719 --> 00:46:04.239
and it continues to this day. So we've had that

938
00:46:04.280 --> 00:46:06.119
going for three or four years, where anytime she has

939
00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:08.079
got something she wants to talk to me about or

940
00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:09.840
share with me, or a question she wants to ask me,

941
00:46:09.880 --> 00:46:11.280
she's not sure if I'm going to say no, she

942
00:46:11.320 --> 00:46:13.840
will write it in that diary and she'll just leave

943
00:46:13.880 --> 00:46:17.519
it on my bed or next to the bed or something,

944
00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:20.960
and then I read it. And the rule is that

945
00:46:20.960 --> 00:46:22.760
what's in the diary stays in the diary. We don't

946
00:46:22.760 --> 00:46:25.719
discuss it, so but then I can write back to

947
00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:28.920
her and then sometimes we will have a conversation. But

948
00:46:29.039 --> 00:46:32.480
I really really have come to rely on that, and

949
00:46:32.559 --> 00:46:35.519
she she has said too, you know that if there

950
00:46:35.639 --> 00:46:38.159
was anything that, yeah, she would probably wouldn't talk to me,

951
00:46:38.239 --> 00:46:40.440
but she would put it in the mother daughter diary.

952
00:46:40.719 --> 00:46:41.719
So that's a great tip.

953
00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:44.679
If anybody hasn't listened to that prior episode with Beck Sparrow,

954
00:46:44.760 --> 00:46:45.519
it's a good one.

955
00:46:45.960 --> 00:46:46.199
Yeah.

956
00:46:46.199 --> 00:46:48.079
And I like that because often kids will say to me,

957
00:46:48.119 --> 00:46:50.360
you know, I'm too nervous to ask for this app

958
00:46:50.400 --> 00:46:52.079
because I think my mum or dad will say no,

959
00:46:52.159 --> 00:46:53.679
so I'll just install it anyway.

960
00:46:54.119 --> 00:46:56.760
And so often I say to parents when.

961
00:46:56.599 --> 00:46:58.760
Your child does ask you, you know, maybe it's when can

962
00:46:58.800 --> 00:47:00.000
I have my first smart phone?

963
00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:01.639
Or when do I get my gaming console?

964
00:47:01.719 --> 00:47:03.920
And if it is a no, I think giving them

965
00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:07.000
a no for your reasons is really important, but also

966
00:47:07.079 --> 00:47:09.599
telling them it's just a no for now. You know,

967
00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:12.079
this is not a tattoo, this is not a permanent decision.

968
00:47:12.159 --> 00:47:16.079
Let's reevaluate now. That can open the doors because your

969
00:47:16.119 --> 00:47:18.320
child will think, Okay, I'll ask again tomorrow and again

970
00:47:18.360 --> 00:47:20.039
the next day, and I'll use pester.

971
00:47:19.960 --> 00:47:21.880
Power to win mum or dad over.

972
00:47:21.960 --> 00:47:24.800
But I think if they could write it down, that

973
00:47:24.840 --> 00:47:27.159
would be a great way for them to broach a

974
00:47:27.199 --> 00:47:30.239
topic that they would perhaps be tentative about and perhaps

975
00:47:30.280 --> 00:47:32.679
go behind closed doors to find a solution.

976
00:47:33.519 --> 00:47:35.800
And I think it also as for us as parents,

977
00:47:35.800 --> 00:47:40.960
it gives us a minute to process before we respond

978
00:47:41.199 --> 00:47:45.400
when we might normally be a bit reactive or just

979
00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:47.920
busy and distracted or whatever. So it's great for a

980
00:47:47.920 --> 00:47:52.480
lot of reasons, Christy, are there any while our kids

981
00:47:52.519 --> 00:47:54.800
are on their phones? And even as adults while we're

982
00:47:54.800 --> 00:47:57.920
on our phones, are there any apps that we should

983
00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:02.679
be downloading? Like that we can put things in place

984
00:48:02.719 --> 00:48:05.960
so that we're using our technology more effectively.

985
00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:11.199
Absolutely, I'm a huge advocate for actually using technology. Relying

986
00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:15.119
on willpower alone to limit or restrict your use is

987
00:48:15.639 --> 00:48:18.400
not going to be very successful because, as we've talked about,

988
00:48:18.400 --> 00:48:21.599
these technologies have been engineered to be really appealing. So

989
00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:25.119
I think actually relying ironically on the technologies to help

990
00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:26.960
us restrict.

991
00:48:26.480 --> 00:48:27.840
And limit our use.

992
00:48:27.920 --> 00:48:30.599
So a direct or an obvious one, I think is

993
00:48:30.639 --> 00:48:33.159
depending on whether you're an Android or an iOS user

994
00:48:33.760 --> 00:48:36.760
downloading screen time. So for iOS it's screen time. For

995
00:48:36.880 --> 00:48:40.000
Android people, it's called digital wellbeing. But it lets you

996
00:48:40.159 --> 00:48:44.800
set reminders limits just and yes, they're very easy to

997
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:47.840
override and you don't have to strictly adhere to them.

998
00:48:48.119 --> 00:48:51.000
They're not a very strict prohibition.

999
00:48:50.519 --> 00:48:53.280
Tool, but they can be enough of a psychological job,

1000
00:48:53.519 --> 00:48:55.559
like a bit of jolt of guilt. Hang on, you

1001
00:48:55.559 --> 00:48:57.280
know you've had your three hours that you said on

1002
00:48:57.320 --> 00:49:00.360
Instagram today, and so it can be a try get

1003
00:49:00.360 --> 00:49:04.639
to change behavior. Another app that I absolutely love and

1004
00:49:04.719 --> 00:49:08.039
I recommend this to students, and I recommend it to

1005
00:49:08.119 --> 00:49:10.719
a whole lot of employees and executives, some of them.

1006
00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:12.239
In very big roles.

1007
00:49:12.320 --> 00:49:14.320
And the feedback I get on this app is that

1008
00:49:14.360 --> 00:49:18.960
everybody loves it. It's called Forest, and so Forest works

1009
00:49:18.960 --> 00:49:21.320
on both platforms, but it allows you to set an

1010
00:49:21.320 --> 00:49:23.440
amount of time that you're going to stay focused for

1011
00:49:23.800 --> 00:49:26.159
and if you are successful in not picking up your

1012
00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:29.199
phone during that focused period, you grow.

1013
00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:30.119
A little digital plant.

1014
00:49:30.199 --> 00:49:33.039
And if you're unsuccessful, that plant shrivels up and dies.

1015
00:49:33.199 --> 00:49:36.559
And it's such a trivial, simple thing, but it is

1016
00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:39.760
so effective because you really don't want to kill it

1017
00:49:40.199 --> 00:49:42.559
withers in a really dramatic way when you pick up

1018
00:49:42.599 --> 00:49:46.480
your phone. Another app that I really love is called Pocket.

1019
00:49:47.000 --> 00:49:49.400
And we're talking before you know how, you're saying, we're

1020
00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:52.480
reading all these short blog posts and consuming little bite

1021
00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:55.360
sized bits of information. What often happens is we get

1022
00:49:55.400 --> 00:49:57.280
an email and it's a link to an article or

1023
00:49:57.320 --> 00:49:59.159
a blog post and we really want to read it,

1024
00:49:59.199 --> 00:50:01.280
but maybe this this is our deep work time and

1025
00:50:01.320 --> 00:50:04.079
we shouldn't be going down that rabbit hole. With Pocket,

1026
00:50:04.280 --> 00:50:09.559
you can basically curate any written content, any audio or

1027
00:50:09.639 --> 00:50:12.880
video content. And what it allows you to do it

1028
00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:15.360
curates it all for you, and you go into Pocket

1029
00:50:15.400 --> 00:50:17.800
at a time that's convenient to you and you can

1030
00:50:17.880 --> 00:50:21.239
consume all of that content in what caw Newport would

1031
00:50:21.239 --> 00:50:24.280
call perhaps your shallow time. The benefit of this is

1032
00:50:24.360 --> 00:50:27.320
that it will actually read back any written content, so

1033
00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:31.559
blog posts, articles, news stories, if there is a written

1034
00:50:31.599 --> 00:50:33.880
aspect to it, it will actually read it back to you,

1035
00:50:33.920 --> 00:50:35.079
which works really well.

1036
00:50:35.119 --> 00:50:36.440
Wow, it's a clever one.

1037
00:50:36.519 --> 00:50:39.039
Saves lots and lots of time and allows you to

1038
00:50:39.079 --> 00:50:41.719
sort of I'm not going to say binge, but sort

1039
00:50:41.719 --> 00:50:43.880
of batch the content.

1040
00:50:43.599 --> 00:50:44.880
Batch, yeah, exactly.

1041
00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:46.000
And on batching.

1042
00:50:46.039 --> 00:50:49.559
Another really simple strategy, and it's again an embedded tech tool,

1043
00:50:49.719 --> 00:50:54.039
is disable your non essential alerts and notifications. Once you've

1044
00:50:54.079 --> 00:50:56.960
disabled those pesky ones and on your device as well,

1045
00:50:57.039 --> 00:51:00.039
not just your smartphone, once you have got just the

1046
00:51:00.119 --> 00:51:03.599
essential notifications and alerts left, what you can do on

1047
00:51:03.679 --> 00:51:07.159
most operating platforms now is you can batch or bundle,

1048
00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:09.000
so those notifications come.

1049
00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:10.320
To you at a convenient time.

1050
00:51:11.079 --> 00:51:14.360
It's a relatively new function and it really depends on

1051
00:51:14.400 --> 00:51:16.679
your operating system as to how you do it. But

1052
00:51:16.760 --> 00:51:18.039
the good thing with this, I know for a lot

1053
00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:20.760
of adolescents they say, you know, I get notifications from

1054
00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:23.480
the people I subscribe to on YouTube, and they come

1055
00:51:23.519 --> 00:51:25.400
at me all day in class and I sort of

1056
00:51:25.440 --> 00:51:28.440
can't resist, and I'm in the bathroom watching YouTube because

1057
00:51:28.559 --> 00:51:31.679
you know it's important. Whereas that student could have had

1058
00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:34.199
that notification come to them so that maybe it comes

1059
00:51:34.199 --> 00:51:36.039
to them while they're on the bus on the way home,

1060
00:51:36.360 --> 00:51:38.280
or maybe they get it so that it they even

1061
00:51:38.320 --> 00:51:40.480
better would be that they can watch it after they've

1062
00:51:40.480 --> 00:51:42.840
done all their homework or study. And this is where

1063
00:51:42.840 --> 00:51:45.599
I was talking earlier about putting a fortress around our focus.

1064
00:51:45.719 --> 00:51:48.880
You could say, look, maybe I'm you're an owl and

1065
00:51:48.880 --> 00:51:50.599
you're going to get some deep work done at night.

1066
00:51:50.679 --> 00:51:53.000
You don't want to have all the WhatsApp and social

1067
00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:55.719
media notifications pinging at you, so you might want to

1068
00:51:55.760 --> 00:51:58.159
batch or bundle them for earlier in the afternoon.

1069
00:51:58.519 --> 00:52:02.239
I have definitely disabled them most notifications, but there's some

1070
00:52:02.280 --> 00:52:07.159
really good advice there about more effectively managing that, so

1071
00:52:07.280 --> 00:52:08.400
that's fantastic.

1072
00:52:08.639 --> 00:52:10.360
Thank you, Christy.

1073
00:52:10.440 --> 00:52:13.960
This has been a really really great conversation, really relevant

1074
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:18.360
and I really appreciate the amount of practical tips and

1075
00:52:18.440 --> 00:52:20.119
advice that you have shared with us today.

1076
00:52:20.159 --> 00:52:21.320
Thank you so much for your.

1077
00:52:21.239 --> 00:52:22.960
Time, my pleasure, Cas, Thank you.

1078
00:52:26.400 --> 00:52:28.719
Thank you for tuning into this fabulous chat with doctor

1079
00:52:28.800 --> 00:52:32.000
Christy Goodwin. So much practical advice in there. If you

1080
00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:33.719
would like to find out how you can get her

1081
00:52:33.760 --> 00:52:35.880
to come to talk to your school or your workplace,

1082
00:52:35.920 --> 00:52:37.559
you can find out all about how to do that

1083
00:52:37.679 --> 00:52:41.239
at her website, Doctor Christigodwin dot com. Of course, you

1084
00:52:41.280 --> 00:52:43.760
can get in touch with me at Hello at castdone

1085
00:52:43.800 --> 00:52:46.880
dot com, come and follow me on Instagram. Cast Done

1086
00:52:46.960 --> 00:52:50.880
Underscore XO. Just a reminder that the third Crappy to

1087
00:52:50.920 --> 00:52:53.840
Happy book, Crappy to Happy Love who You're With, is

1088
00:52:53.880 --> 00:52:56.679
now available for pre order and as always, if you

1089
00:52:56.800 --> 00:52:58.800
enjoy this show, please don't forget to leave us a

1090
00:52:58.880 --> 00:53:01.079
rating and a review. I can't wait to chat with

1091
00:53:01.119 --> 00:53:04.559
you on the next episode of Crappy to Happy. Crappy

1092
00:53:04.599 --> 00:53:07.800
to Happy is presented by Cast Dunn, produced by Davis Lensky,

1093
00:53:08.079 --> 00:53:09.960
Audio production by Darcy Thompson.

1094
00:53:15.079 --> 00:53:15.519
Listener