Feb. 6, 2019

Overcome the confidence deficit with Jamila Rizvi

Overcome the confidence deficit with Jamila Rizvi
The player is loading ...
Overcome the confidence deficit with Jamila Rizvi
Overcome the confidence deficit with Jamila Rizvi
Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon Castro podcast player icon PocketCasts podcast player icon Podchaser podcast player icon
Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon Castro podcast player icon PocketCasts podcast player icon Podchaser podcast player icon
Season 3 Psychology & Neuroscience Women's Health And Wellbeing Self-Confidence

What are the structural and cultural disadvantages that rob women of their confidence without them even realising it? Jamila Rizvi speaks with Cass Dunn on why women sell themselves short and shares advice about how to start fighting for your success and for a more inclusive and equal workplace for all.Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypodwww.tiktok.com/crappytohappypod
Join the free 7-day Happiness Challenge:www.cassdunn.com/happiness

Connect with Cass:

www.cassdunn.com
www.instagram.com/cassdunn_xo

Contact Crappy to Happy:

Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
www.crappytohappypod.com
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypod
www.tiktok.com/@crappytohappypod


Are you a coach, therapist, service provider or solopreneur struggling with self-doubt and imposter syndrome? I'd love to talk to you! (for market research purposes only!)

Book a call with me to share your experience.

Want more great content and less ads?

Upgrade to Paid in the Spotify or Apple podcasts App to get immediate access to "Beyond Happy", the subscriber only podcast featuring bonus content, meditations and more!

Transcript
WEBVTT

1
00:00:02.680 --> 00:00:03.960
A listener production.

2
00:00:10.119 --> 00:00:12.839
Hi, you're listening to Crappy to Happy and I'm your host,

3
00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:16.960
Cas Dunn. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist, mindfulness meditation teacher,

4
00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:17.640
and author.

5
00:00:17.399 --> 00:00:18.600
Of the Crappy to Happy books.

6
00:00:19.640 --> 00:00:21.800
In this series, we look at all the factors that

7
00:00:21.879 --> 00:00:24.079
might be making you feel crappy and the tools and

8
00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:27.760
the techniques that will help you overcome them. In each episode,

9
00:00:27.800 --> 00:00:32.399
I introduce you to interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are

10
00:00:32.439 --> 00:00:34.960
experts in their field, and my hope is that they

11
00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:39.159
will help you go from crappy to happy. In today's episode,

12
00:00:39.200 --> 00:00:42.280
I'm talking to Jamilla Risby, who is an author, presenter,

13
00:00:42.520 --> 00:00:46.560
and editor at large of The Nine Network's Future Women platform.

14
00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:49.119
She also hosts a podcast.

15
00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:51.000
Of the same name, and Jamilla and I talked about

16
00:00:51.079 --> 00:00:53.000
all the ways that women hold themselves back in the

17
00:00:53.039 --> 00:00:56.560
workplace and how you can overcome self doubt, learn to

18
00:00:56.600 --> 00:00:59.600
speak up for yourself, and start to bridge the confidence

19
00:00:59.719 --> 00:01:00.600
gap that.

20
00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:01.799
Many women experience.

21
00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:05.040
Jimiller, thank you so much for coming in to talk

22
00:01:05.079 --> 00:01:06.200
to me today. Is such a pleasure.

23
00:01:06.319 --> 00:01:07.319
Oh, thanks for having me.

24
00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:11.239
I would love to talk to you today about the

25
00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:15.840
confidence deficits so in this podcast. In previous episodes, we've

26
00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:18.280
covered kind of the self confidence issue that women face,

27
00:01:18.480 --> 00:01:20.840
but I would really love to focus in on the

28
00:01:20.840 --> 00:01:23.079
confidence deficits, specifically in the workplace.

29
00:01:23.760 --> 00:01:27.280
So what is the confidence deficit? Can you explain that?

30
00:01:27.480 --> 00:01:30.560
So about two years ago now, I wrote a book

31
00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:33.719
called Not Just Lucky, and the book was looking at

32
00:01:33.879 --> 00:01:36.079
trying to answer this question that I just kept coming

33
00:01:36.120 --> 00:01:39.760
up against at work. I began my working career in politics,

34
00:01:39.760 --> 00:01:43.640
which is incredibly male dominated, like I'm talking like sausage

35
00:01:43.640 --> 00:01:47.519
fest in the corials of Parliament right and blokes everywhere,

36
00:01:47.640 --> 00:01:49.879
and there are very few women involved in politics, particularly

37
00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:53.519
behind the scenes. And then I went to women's media,

38
00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:56.840
where like literally you eat estrogen sprinkled on your cereal

39
00:01:56.920 --> 00:01:58.640
for breakfast, like that is what it is like in

40
00:01:58.680 --> 00:02:01.519
those offices, and complain change. And the thing that I

41
00:02:01.640 --> 00:02:04.560
noticed above all else in terms of comparing those two

42
00:02:04.599 --> 00:02:08.319
workplaces was how much the women second guessed themselves. In

43
00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:13.159
terms of skill level and ability, no difference that I noticed,

44
00:02:13.479 --> 00:02:16.439
but in terms of confidence levels, the two groups were

45
00:02:16.479 --> 00:02:19.400
miles apart. And I just became obsessed with this question

46
00:02:19.439 --> 00:02:21.879
and wanting to answer it. And when I started doing

47
00:02:21.879 --> 00:02:24.360
the research and dipping into the psychology and was of

48
00:02:24.360 --> 00:02:26.680
what was going on. I found that this is absolutely

49
00:02:26.719 --> 00:02:30.599
true that in the workplace, women experience, on average a

50
00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:33.479
confidence deficit compared to men. They're much more likely to

51
00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:36.879
second guess themselves, much more likely to undersell themselves, much

52
00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:40.240
less likely to apply for a promotion, much less likely

53
00:02:40.280 --> 00:02:43.400
to ask for more money, and in general that's holding

54
00:02:43.400 --> 00:02:44.520
women back in workplaces.

55
00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:47.639
Yeah, for sure, And I know that women know that

56
00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:51.039
they do this and they're frustrated themselves by it.

57
00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:54.120
Did you come up with why why do we lack

58
00:02:54.159 --> 00:02:57.199
that confidence? Yeah, it's definitely a really complex why.

59
00:02:57.560 --> 00:03:00.520
I think the important premise to start with is that

60
00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:02.400
my research shows that it's not your fault.

61
00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:05.599
Hooray. Your lack of confidence is not your fault.

62
00:03:05.719 --> 00:03:09.120
It is genuinely instilled in women from a very very

63
00:03:09.240 --> 00:03:12.680
young age. And what I found was that the schooling environment,

64
00:03:12.759 --> 00:03:17.120
certainly in Australia and similar western countries, the schooling environment

65
00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:20.439
really works for girls. In fact, it's a separate conversation,

66
00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:22.199
but I think there's a conversation needs to be hard

67
00:03:22.199 --> 00:03:24.960
about whether or not schooling environments currently work for boys

68
00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:28.680
but for girls. Girls are thriving at school. There's rules.

69
00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:32.360
There's really predictable patterns and predictable outcomes in terms of

70
00:03:32.439 --> 00:03:35.280
how to achieve. So girls are graduating from high school

71
00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:37.759
in greater numbers, they're going to university in greater numbers.

72
00:03:37.759 --> 00:03:41.520
They're graduating from university with more awards and at higher levels,

73
00:03:41.599 --> 00:03:45.560
higher degrees. And then they hit the workplace and something happens.

74
00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:48.680
And I think we all like to go, oh, well,

75
00:03:48.919 --> 00:03:51.240
that's because women biologically are the ones that have the

76
00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:53.039
babies and there's nothing we can do about that.

77
00:03:53.319 --> 00:03:53.960
Not true.

78
00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:57.439
Women come up against that gap usually for their first time.

79
00:03:57.520 --> 00:04:00.280
In the first year in the workplace. On average, woman

80
00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:03.479
university graduate in Australia earns between eight and ten percent

81
00:04:03.560 --> 00:04:06.520
less than a male university graduate. These are twenty two

82
00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:09.479
twenty three year olds. I'm sorry, but most of them

83
00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:12.719
don't have kids. You will sure most of them don't.

84
00:04:12.879 --> 00:04:15.039
Something is happening, and there is something going on in

85
00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:18.920
workplaces and the way we sort of look after women

86
00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:21.920
and raise women and socialize women, that means that when

87
00:04:21.959 --> 00:04:24.160
they get to the workplace they suddenly stumble.

88
00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:25.879
I found that so interesting.

89
00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:28.560
I've been reading your book, which is amazing, by the way,

90
00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:31.319
thank you. But my daughter has just finished her first

91
00:04:31.399 --> 00:04:33.759
year of high school and at the end of the

92
00:04:33.879 --> 00:04:36.279
year at her awards night. At the awards ceremony at

93
00:04:36.279 --> 00:04:38.160
the end of last year, when it came to the

94
00:04:38.199 --> 00:04:40.839
top achievers for the year, my husband was sitting next

95
00:04:40.879 --> 00:04:42.879
to me. My daughter was up on the stage and

96
00:04:43.000 --> 00:04:45.439
he just said, wow, like girls rule the world because

97
00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:48.319
the stage was covered in girls. And at the time

98
00:04:48.360 --> 00:04:50.879
I thought, yeah, girls do rule the world. And it

99
00:04:50.959 --> 00:04:52.759
was only when I read your book that I thought

100
00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:56.319
this is not necessarily something to be celebrated, because what

101
00:04:56.480 --> 00:04:58.199
is getting them ahead in school is not what gets

102
00:04:58.199 --> 00:04:59.480
them ahead in the workplace.

103
00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:02.439
That's exact clear, right, Because school has these really defined

104
00:05:02.680 --> 00:05:06.839
structures and rules, the path to success is really clear. Basically,

105
00:05:06.920 --> 00:05:09.600
if you're relatively clever and you work hard at school,

106
00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:13.800
you will do well. School is a meritocracy. The workplace isn't.

107
00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:17.839
The workplace is gendered and sexist. And I know people

108
00:05:17.959 --> 00:05:20.600
often flinch when they hear those words and go, oh,

109
00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:23.079
but is it, like, is it really that bad anymore?

110
00:05:24.360 --> 00:05:26.560
I don't think it's that bad anymore. I think it's

111
00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:28.879
far better for women today than it's ten years ago,

112
00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:31.439
twenty years ago, certainly fifty or one hundred years ago

113
00:05:31.560 --> 00:05:34.120
far better, and I think it's really important that women

114
00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:37.079
take pause and celebrate the wins rather than just focus

115
00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:41.079
on where we're falling behind. But I think one of

116
00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:43.879
the problems with most of the gender inequality that exists

117
00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:47.519
in workplaces, being less visually obvious anymore means that we

118
00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:50.319
think it doesn't exist, but it's still there, and it's

119
00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:53.920
almost more insidious because we don't necessarily see it in

120
00:05:53.959 --> 00:05:56.879
an obvious way. But some things that play here, And

121
00:05:56.879 --> 00:05:58.319
if I can give you like it, just a quick

122
00:05:58.360 --> 00:06:02.839
outline of why I think it's still there, please do so.

123
00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:05.360
I started off with the fact that women university graduates

124
00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:08.639
earn on average around eight to ten percent less a

125
00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:13.040
year than male university graduates. That gap starts small and

126
00:06:13.079 --> 00:06:16.800
it gets bigger and bigger over time. The average age

127
00:06:16.839 --> 00:06:20.839
that a woman's salary peaks in Australia, can you guess,

128
00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:25.399
think of your career trajectory, when's going to be the

129
00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:29.199
highest point of your career. You would think around forty Yep, yeah,

130
00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:33.120
that's exactly the peak for Australian men. For women, it's

131
00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:36.759
age thirty. Wow, so it's ten years earlier. And I

132
00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:41.040
don't think it's any coincidence that Australian women have their

133
00:06:41.040 --> 00:06:44.240
first baby on average at that same age. So for women,

134
00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:46.639
you hit that ceiling of how much you're going to

135
00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:49.120
earn in your lifetime, and I'm thirty two, I'm devastated.

136
00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:52.480
I've hit the peak already. You hit that peak so

137
00:06:52.600 --> 00:06:54.160
much earlier in your lifetime. It's going to be a

138
00:06:54.160 --> 00:06:56.800
lower peak, right, yeah, because you haven't had another ten

139
00:06:56.879 --> 00:06:58.959
years climbing a corporate ladder. You haven't had another ten

140
00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:02.120
years experience or education or whatever it is. So that

141
00:07:02.120 --> 00:07:04.720
gap widens again. Then you might have a child, you

142
00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:06.439
might be in and out of the workforce, you might

143
00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:09.720
have other caring responsibilities for older relatives. Women are five

144
00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:11.839
times more likely to be caring for a person with

145
00:07:11.879 --> 00:07:14.560
a disability or an elderly person in their life than men.

146
00:07:14.759 --> 00:07:18.519
That gap grows and grows and grows, to the point that,

147
00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:21.920
on average, an Australian woman now retires with around half

148
00:07:21.959 --> 00:07:25.600
the superannuation of an Australian man, and the fastest growing

149
00:07:25.639 --> 00:07:28.680
group of people living in poverty in Australia are women

150
00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:30.079
over sixty five who are single.

151
00:07:30.519 --> 00:07:33.879
Is devastating. You lose your partner and you're in big trouble.

152
00:07:33.879 --> 00:07:35.839
If you're an older woman in this country, and if

153
00:07:35.879 --> 00:07:38.519
you think this is women over sixty, that's not that old.

154
00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:39.759
A lot of you have.

155
00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:41.600
Got forty forty five years of life ahead of you

156
00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:43.800
at that point, and you're retiring with little to no

157
00:07:43.879 --> 00:07:46.240
superannuation and you're going to be living on an age pension.

158
00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:50.360
That is it's devastating, but it's fascinating and I really

159
00:07:50.439 --> 00:07:53.560
am interested to unpack this now. So is this something

160
00:07:53.600 --> 00:07:56.360
that women are doing to themselves or is this something

161
00:07:56.600 --> 00:07:58.920
that the system is doing to them?

162
00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:01.319
I think it's kind of chicken and egg thing, right,

163
00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:04.480
So it's both. This is a system that we've built

164
00:08:04.519 --> 00:08:07.279
over time, and it is complex and that is nuanced,

165
00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:09.959
and it is based on a workplace that was built

166
00:08:10.040 --> 00:08:11.360
for men by men.

167
00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:13.040
And that's not a question, right.

168
00:08:13.160 --> 00:08:15.240
The workplace wasn't built for women and we didn't design

169
00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:17.920
this for women. Childcare in Australia is something that we

170
00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:20.279
kind of cobbled together over the last forty years when

171
00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:22.079
we've gone, oh my gosh, what if people need to

172
00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:24.319
go to work and have children at the same time,

173
00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:26.680
how will we cope? And so we have this really

174
00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:29.639
messy system of funny payments and who offers it. And

175
00:08:29.680 --> 00:08:32.240
that's just one example of how we're dealing with women's

176
00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:35.960
entry into the workforce. In the context of history, women's

177
00:08:36.039 --> 00:08:39.080
entry into the workforce is still fairly recent. We're still

178
00:08:39.080 --> 00:08:41.200
coming to terms with it. We're still figuring out how

179
00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:43.840
to deal with it. And I think as a result

180
00:08:43.960 --> 00:08:46.320
of that, we have a system that doesn't support women

181
00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:50.519
and doesn't enable women to succeed. And so women, because

182
00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:53.879
they think we live in an equal world, internalize that

183
00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:57.559
and go, oh, this isn't working and this isn't working.

184
00:08:57.639 --> 00:09:00.360
And they come out of school like your door will

185
00:09:00.399 --> 00:09:02.200
and like other girls come out of school and they

186
00:09:02.360 --> 00:09:04.519
are full of confidence, and they won all the awards

187
00:09:04.519 --> 00:09:06.200
and they were the school captains and they did all

188
00:09:06.279 --> 00:09:08.519
the things because school works for girls. And then they

189
00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:12.480
enter the workforce and they go what whoa, whoa, And

190
00:09:12.519 --> 00:09:15.159
so that system comes up against them and as a result,

191
00:09:15.240 --> 00:09:17.679
they lose confidence. And that's where that lack of confidence

192
00:09:17.720 --> 00:09:19.320
comes from. And then we kind of create.

193
00:09:19.080 --> 00:09:21.279
This vicious cycle, right where lack of.

194
00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:23.960
Confidence means you can't move ahead and you're not having

195
00:09:23.960 --> 00:09:26.759
the success that you could otherwise have, and that further

196
00:09:26.919 --> 00:09:29.879
entrenches your disadvantage, and this is kind of the premise

197
00:09:29.919 --> 00:09:31.879
of my book. I suppose the thesis of my book.

198
00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:35.240
It's that there's these big structural questions we have to solve.

199
00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:38.559
And I think they're huge questions for Australia and questions

200
00:09:38.600 --> 00:09:41.120
for government, and questions for business and non for profits,

201
00:09:41.320 --> 00:09:44.639
but they're questions for the world. But as an individual,

202
00:09:44.720 --> 00:09:46.600
when you're looking at you and your career and what

203
00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:48.519
you're going to do, and the fact that you know

204
00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:50.559
you feel a bit anxious at work, or you feel

205
00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:52.120
like you can't ask for a pay your ese, or

206
00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:54.159
you're worried about a certain boss, or you're having a

207
00:09:54.200 --> 00:09:56.120
dispute with a colleague and you don't know how to

208
00:09:56.159 --> 00:09:59.039
settle it. Well, that's all very well and good that

209
00:09:59.080 --> 00:10:02.159
there's this big st cruel inequality, but no one's solving

210
00:10:02.159 --> 00:10:04.559
it for you in this moment. But what you can

211
00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:06.440
do in this moment is take charge of you and

212
00:10:06.480 --> 00:10:09.600
your own confidence. And I suppose that's what I like

213
00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:12.000
to try and do in my writing is say, yes,

214
00:10:12.200 --> 00:10:14.840
let's recognize that this system exists and that it's unfair,

215
00:10:14.840 --> 00:10:17.159
and let's all work together to change it. But also,

216
00:10:17.240 --> 00:10:19.799
what can you do as an individual to make yourself

217
00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:21.440
feel a little bit stronger.

218
00:10:21.759 --> 00:10:22.240
Yeah.

219
00:10:22.279 --> 00:10:26.000
And the other thing I think that our listeners have

220
00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:28.039
talked about, and I've talked about it before, is that there

221
00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:31.159
is a distinct difference between confidence in your ability and

222
00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:33.759
the social confidence, which is to assert yourself and ask

223
00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:36.000
what you you know for what you need and ask

224
00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:37.480
for the pay rise or speak up in the meeting.

225
00:10:38.200 --> 00:10:40.519
Can you talk a bit about that that difference, because

226
00:10:40.519 --> 00:10:42.559
I know that women find themselves really frustrated with that too.

227
00:10:42.559 --> 00:10:43.840
They say, I know I'm good at what I do,

228
00:10:44.159 --> 00:10:46.200
but I just I feel so small, like I can't.

229
00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:47.360
Yeah, I feel.

230
00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:49.559
I'm meek and mild, and I know it's a problem

231
00:10:49.600 --> 00:10:51.919
for me, but I don't know how to push through that.

232
00:10:52.120 --> 00:10:54.279
You sound like you're just quoting so many of my friends.

233
00:10:54.679 --> 00:10:55.559
It is it is real.

234
00:10:55.679 --> 00:10:58.039
It's a real thing that women struggle with, I think.

235
00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:00.639
And one of the most fascinating pieces of research I

236
00:11:00.679 --> 00:11:03.759
came across, which was out of the United States, showed

237
00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:06.559
that for women, there's this view that women about it

238
00:11:06.639 --> 00:11:09.080
negotiating right, or not as good at men as men

239
00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:12.360
at negotiating is simply not true. And what this piece

240
00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:15.159
of research found was that when women were negotiating on

241
00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:18.120
behalf of a company or on behalf of somebody else,

242
00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:20.039
they were equally as good or.

243
00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:20.799
Better than men.

244
00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:24.360
When women had to negotiate on their own behalf, yeah,

245
00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:25.600
we were rubbish.

246
00:11:25.399 --> 00:11:27.519
Like completely rubbish, completely rubbish.

247
00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:30.960
And so the struggle there is in asserting your own

248
00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:34.639
self worth and asserting your own right to more, whatever

249
00:11:34.639 --> 00:11:36.919
that more might be. If I can give you an example,

250
00:11:36.960 --> 00:11:39.360
when I used to manage a large group of women,

251
00:11:39.759 --> 00:11:41.960
one of the things I noticed when people were talking

252
00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:44.320
about pay rises was they come into the.

253
00:11:44.279 --> 00:11:47.000
Office, usually woefully unprepared ladies.

254
00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:48.799
We can deal with that separately, but anyway, if they

255
00:11:48.840 --> 00:11:51.440
would come into the office and they would start making

256
00:11:51.519 --> 00:11:55.240
the case for why they deserved a pay rise based

257
00:11:55.279 --> 00:11:57.840
on why they needed it, so it would be like

258
00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:02.039
I'm saving for a wedding rent, it's really expensive. They'd

259
00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:05.399
give all these reasons that were incredibly good and valid

260
00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:07.360
reasons for wanting a pay rise.

261
00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:10.759
They weren't particularly good reasons to give someone a pay rise,

262
00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:12.159
a deserving one, yeah, But.

263
00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:14.639
The unconscious bit there, the bit that they weren't saying

264
00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:16.879
out loud, was I don't want to just say I'm

265
00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:20.200
worth more money that's hard to say. It's much easier

266
00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:22.480
to say, this is why I need more money. And

267
00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:26.080
by referencing important things like childcare is expensive, or rents

268
00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:30.120
expensive or whatever it might be. By referencing important cost

269
00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:32.240
of living issues, they were trying to say, I'm.

270
00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:33.320
Not greedy either.

271
00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:36.960
And it's such a I think the social expectations on

272
00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:39.399
women and men one isn't higher than the other, but

273
00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:43.480
they're extremely different. And the social expectation on women is

274
00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:47.039
not to want money. You're not supposed to want money

275
00:12:47.080 --> 00:12:48.759
and you're not supposed to want success.

276
00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:52.360
So do you think this all really drives right back

277
00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:55.600
from the earliest years in our lives, when little girls

278
00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:59.519
are basically taught that their value is in how they

279
00:12:59.559 --> 00:13:02.799
look and in being polite and all of those kind

280
00:13:02.840 --> 00:13:04.519
of qualities that we're just conditioned.

281
00:13:04.960 --> 00:13:07.080
What are the positive qualities that we should be embodying?

282
00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:08.840
Is that what it is? I think there's a big

283
00:13:08.879 --> 00:13:10.679
part of that. I think there's a lot going on.

284
00:13:10.600 --> 00:13:12.440
Here, But I think childhood, you know, you would know

285
00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:15.360
as a psychologist, childhood has a massive impact course on

286
00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:18.360
not only the way someone thinks, but also in the

287
00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:20.200
way their brain is structured. You know, we now know

288
00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:23.879
that the brain starts to rewire to an extent, certainly

289
00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:27.759
in those first five years, based on how you interact

290
00:13:27.799 --> 00:13:29.759
with the world around you. And if the world around

291
00:13:29.799 --> 00:13:35.639
you expect certain behavior and rewards certain behavior, then your

292
00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:38.399
brain evolves in line with that. You know, when little

293
00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:42.279
boys are told man up, don't cry at age three,

294
00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:45.159
when I've got three year old, I mean, they cry,

295
00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:46.480
like that's what three year olds do?

296
00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:47.000
They cry?

297
00:13:48.279 --> 00:13:51.279
It annoys me. But him crying has nothing to do

298
00:13:51.320 --> 00:13:52.919
with him being a boy, do you know what I mean?

299
00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:55.200
And him needing to stop crying over something that is

300
00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:57.080
not a thing has nothing to do with him being

301
00:13:57.080 --> 00:14:00.360
a boy. And yet we respond to but much more

302
00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:03.200
quick to tell little boys, come on, come on, you

303
00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:05.399
know stop it. You're right, come on, let's go next.

304
00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:07.840
And we're much more We're much more likely to indulge

305
00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:10.200
little girls when it comes to politeness. A lot of

306
00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:13.360
university studies have now found that we expect much higher

307
00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:16.200
behavior standards of behavior from little girls early on. We

308
00:14:16.279 --> 00:14:19.360
expect them to be people pleasers. This stuff starts really

309
00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:23.200
early and it follows people right through their entire lives.

310
00:14:23.919 --> 00:14:27.039
I think it's also about how we model to children

311
00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:30.759
and how we model really unconsciously. And I like, I

312
00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:32.399
am a friend who said to me the other day,

313
00:14:32.440 --> 00:14:34.799
you're a professional feminist. This is what I do for

314
00:14:34.840 --> 00:14:37.679
a living, and I try really hard to be a

315
00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:41.200
good model equal parenting to my son between my husband

316
00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:43.320
and I, and he tries really hard as well, and

317
00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:46.879
we fail every day. One of the ones I noticed

318
00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:50.000
about a year ago was that we never discussed this.

319
00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:52.799
But whenever we get in the car, both my husband

320
00:14:52.840 --> 00:14:54.759
drives and I drive, But whenever we get in the

321
00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:57.720
car together, my husband drives.

322
00:14:57.399 --> 00:14:59.080
Same, same, same in our family.

323
00:14:59.159 --> 00:15:03.080
We never really discussed this, Like we never discussed you

324
00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:04.559
know who is the better driver.

325
00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:06.159
I would argue it's me.

326
00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:09.919
He is definitely the better navigator, which I would argue

327
00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:12.000
means he should be in the passengers eat with a map.

328
00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:14.080
But we never discussed it.

329
00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:16.200
But for some reason we fell into that old status

330
00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:17.240
quo sexist pattern.

331
00:15:17.320 --> 00:15:18.879
Right, Okay, does it really matter?

332
00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:21.559
Not much, But my little boy sees that, and my

333
00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:25.600
little boy sees and clocks, oh, mummy can drive, Daddy

334
00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:28.919
can drive. That's an important and adult thing to do,

335
00:15:29.080 --> 00:15:31.679
something I can't do. But when it's a choice between

336
00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:34.679
the two of them, daddy drives and that's just one

337
00:15:34.759 --> 00:15:37.039
tiny bit of information going into his brain, and he

338
00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:39.679
gets thousands of them every day. So I think we

339
00:15:39.799 --> 00:15:43.159
just need to be so conscious of the messages that

340
00:15:43.159 --> 00:15:46.519
we give our children, but also cut ourselves some slack

341
00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:49.440
for the messages that are really inherent in us because

342
00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:50.480
of the way we were brought up.

343
00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:51.879
Yeah, I totally agree.

344
00:15:51.879 --> 00:15:54.799
And that message about it's not your fault, that's one

345
00:15:54.799 --> 00:15:57.240
that I have I reinforce all the time to people

346
00:15:57.279 --> 00:15:59.399
because I think there is a tendency too for women

347
00:15:59.679 --> 00:16:02.559
to then get down on themselves for the lack of

348
00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:04.919
confidence or their body image issues, or they feel like

349
00:16:04.919 --> 00:16:07.120
they're you know, their body image issues, or they feel

350
00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:08.000
like they're being.

351
00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:09.080
Silly or whatever.

352
00:16:09.240 --> 00:16:12.840
And I say, you have to recognize that a lot

353
00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:15.679
of this stuff has just been imprinted in you, you know,

354
00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:18.679
for the longest time, and it's okay. Yes, try to

355
00:16:18.759 --> 00:16:20.759
change it, Yes, try to do something about it, but

356
00:16:20.919 --> 00:16:23.120
don't take a hundred percent responsibility for it.

357
00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:25.399
I was speaking to her friend the other day who

358
00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:28.879
has a teenage daughter, and she was saying her teenage

359
00:16:28.919 --> 00:16:31.600
door is having some big body image issues at the moment,

360
00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:35.399
and she said she was giving her daughter the lecturer

361
00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:37.639
on it's what's on the inside that counts, and it's

362
00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:40.399
not what matters, And she said as she was speaking,

363
00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:44.159
she realized she was lying. She was like this, I

364
00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:47.440
am selling her on the dream. I wish that you

365
00:16:47.480 --> 00:16:50.360
were only judged on the content of your character and

366
00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:51.919
not how you look on the outside.

367
00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:54.039
There is a reality that we.

368
00:16:54.120 --> 00:16:57.799
Live in an imperfect world, and the solution to that

369
00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:00.519
is not to change yourself, it's to change world.

370
00:17:01.159 --> 00:17:02.200
Interesting that you mentioned that.

371
00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:04.839
I always remember when I was in my early twenties,

372
00:17:05.079 --> 00:17:06.839
I was working in a regional town and I wanted

373
00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:08.880
to come back to the city. And I had applied

374
00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:11.039
for this job, which was a pool who were applying

375
00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:11.519
for those.

376
00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:12.680
Like twenty positions available.

377
00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:15.000
And because I was in a regional city, I did

378
00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:17.119
a phone interview and I didn't get the job.

379
00:17:17.160 --> 00:17:18.319
I didn't get added to the pool.

380
00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:20.400
But then eventually the job came up again and I

381
00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:22.279
was able to be in the city and apply for it.

382
00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:25.160
And the person who gave me the job afterwards said

383
00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:28.559
to me, actually said to me, don't ever let yourself

384
00:17:28.599 --> 00:17:31.160
be interviewed by phone again. How you look is one

385
00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:35.400
of your greatest assets. Oh yeah, and the fact is

386
00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:40.480
that it is so off and so wrong, but it's true.

387
00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:43.680
In fact, it is true. You say in your book,

388
00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:46.240
don't you that people who look a certain way are

389
00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:48.480
more likely to get jobs, are more likely to get promoted.

390
00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:51.079
Yeah, women who are taller are more likely to earn

391
00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:53.480
more money. Women who are thinner are certainly more likely

392
00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:57.160
to earn more money. There is a link between all

393
00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:00.799
sorts of things to do with aesthetics. In this country.

394
00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:02.960
For the most part, women of color or less likely

395
00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:06.599
to earn hir incomes and hold more positions of authority,

396
00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:09.000
and the same with men of color. I mean, disadvantage

397
00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:11.240
is more complex than just women, which we're talking.

398
00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:15.160
About today, of course, but the visuals do play.

399
00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:17.920
A role, and I think it if I can just

400
00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:21.079
sidesteps slightly here. To me, it's analogous to when someone

401
00:18:21.079 --> 00:18:24.119
says to me, when I try and talk about racism

402
00:18:24.119 --> 00:18:28.279
and someone says, oh, I don't see color, It's like, well, firstly,

403
00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:32.880
of course you do, like unless genuinely blind, you see

404
00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:35.599
the difference in people's skin tone. And second to say

405
00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:39.359
oh I don't see color dismisses hundreds of years of

406
00:18:39.400 --> 00:18:42.599
disadvantage that have existed on the basis of race. And

407
00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:46.799
if you ignore that disadvantage, and you ignore that systemic disadvantage,

408
00:18:47.240 --> 00:18:49.839
that means you treat everyone the same. And that means

409
00:18:49.880 --> 00:18:52.319
saying the money that needs to be invested right now

410
00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:56.640
in our health system for Indigenous Australians health outcomes and

411
00:18:56.759 --> 00:19:00.279
white Australian's health outcomes can be the same. Well, it

412
00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:03.319
can't be the same, because Indigenous Australians on average die

413
00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:07.039
twenty five years earlier. So if we don't recognize the

414
00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:10.920
disadvantage that comes from something, if we pretend we don't

415
00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:14.119
see it, it actually further entrenches that disadvantage.

416
00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:15.440
I completely agree.

417
00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:18.519
And bringing that back now to the women's issue, what

418
00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:20.559
do you have to say to the people out there,

419
00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:22.359
and there are plenty of them women who say we

420
00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:23.599
don't need feminism anymore.

421
00:19:25.960 --> 00:19:28.599
I really struggle with that. I struggle to be a

422
00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:33.519
big person. I completely understand where that's coming from. So

423
00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:36.160
I think it comes from a couple of things. The

424
00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:39.519
first place is that when you are an individual who

425
00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:42.759
has experienced disadvantage or discrimination because you're part of a

426
00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:46.720
group that is treated as less even not particularly overtly

427
00:19:46.759 --> 00:19:49.240
when it comes to women, but still treated as less.

428
00:19:49.799 --> 00:19:53.200
It is easier to cuddle up to the majority than

429
00:19:53.240 --> 00:19:56.480
it is to lift that whole minority out of that disadvantage.

430
00:19:56.680 --> 00:19:58.920
So rather than sitting in the minority group of women

431
00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:01.039
and saying, oh, hey, I want this and we need

432
00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:02.519
to push for this, so we need to push for that,

433
00:20:02.599 --> 00:20:04.519
and equalities this far away, it's going to take one

434
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:06.079
hundred years to close the gender peg up.

435
00:20:06.279 --> 00:20:07.359
It's much easier to be.

436
00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:10.400
Like, oh, women and their feminism. I'm not like their,

437
00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:14.079
I'm like you. That's a much easier way to succeed,

438
00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:17.279
much easier way. So I have some empathy for the position,

439
00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:19.759
because I think that comes from a place of being

440
00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:23.720
disadvantaged and trying to lift yourself out of that disadvantage. However,

441
00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:28.599
I think if you personally, deeply and genuinely believe on

442
00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:32.720
reflection and critical reflection that you have never experienced disadvantage

443
00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:35.880
or discrimination in the workplace because you're a woman, I

444
00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:39.039
am thrilled for you. That doesn't mean that your experience

445
00:20:39.079 --> 00:20:40.079
is everyone's experience.

446
00:20:40.119 --> 00:20:41.960
No, that's exactly right. It doesn't mean that.

447
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:44.960
And I think writing off other people's experience because it

448
00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:49.599
wasn't yours is ridiculous. I mean We're all individuals when

449
00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:52.359
it comes down to it, and I think one of

450
00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:54.839
the most important things we need to do in these

451
00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:58.680
sort of modern debates about equality and discrimination is just listen.

452
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:04.079
So one of the conversations that we've had in previous

453
00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:08.119
episodes is that women have this unconscious way of keeping

454
00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:13.119
themselves small, particularly in workplaces. And I know that you

455
00:21:13.160 --> 00:21:14.599
refer to this a little bit in your book too,

456
00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:16.039
and I would love it if you could give some

457
00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:19.720
specific examples about all of the ways that we perhaps

458
00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:23.400
really without even realizing we're doing it, are holding ourselves back.

459
00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:24.119
Yeah.

460
00:21:24.200 --> 00:21:26.720
Sure, So I'm going to start it off with just

461
00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:30.359
some examples related to the way we talk. So this

462
00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:32.440
is very very narrow, and the book's broader than this,

463
00:21:32.599 --> 00:21:36.640
but I think it's interesting to examine the way women

464
00:21:36.680 --> 00:21:38.880
and men talk because so much of our language and

465
00:21:38.920 --> 00:21:43.079
the way we use language evolves unconsciously. So one of

466
00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:46.079
the first ways women make themselves smaller or make themselves

467
00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:50.319
lesser is we insert language of apology into our sentences.

468
00:21:50.759 --> 00:21:53.039
So we all know women say sorry more than men. Sure,

469
00:21:53.319 --> 00:21:55.160
but we also do it in other ways. And I'll

470
00:21:55.160 --> 00:21:57.480
give you just one example, which is if you go

471
00:21:57.480 --> 00:21:59.519
back and listen to the earlier parts of this podcast,

472
00:21:59.519 --> 00:22:01.319
you will see I have a particular problem with it,

473
00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:02.079
and that is.

474
00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:04.440
Over use of the word just so.

475
00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:09.119
The word just immediately puts you in an inferior position

476
00:22:09.240 --> 00:22:11.759
to the person you're talking to. So think of this

477
00:22:11.799 --> 00:22:15.240
as I'm just a mum, I'm just the receptionist. Could

478
00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:18.559
I just have a minute of your time? I don't

479
00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:20.480
need that word in that sentence. Could I have a

480
00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:23.920
minute of your time is all that's necessary. I'm inserting

481
00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:27.200
the word just as a way of apologizing, of saying

482
00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:29.559
I'm less important, you're important.

483
00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:30.880
Can I have more of your time?

484
00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:33.720
And women are much more likely to use phrases like

485
00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:36.440
this in their language in their emails, and it makes

486
00:22:36.519 --> 00:22:41.240
us sound more subservient. And I went back and started

487
00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:45.480
analyzing my emails and taking all the words of apology out,

488
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:48.640
and I just sounded awful. Like when I reread the email,

489
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:50.319
I was like, Oh, that's so rude. I couldn't possibly

490
00:22:50.319 --> 00:22:53.039
send that email. And it's really interesting. I would show

491
00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:55.160
that to my husband or a colleague, a male colleague,

492
00:22:55.160 --> 00:22:57.319
and they'd be like, that's fine, it's just an email.

493
00:22:58.119 --> 00:23:00.720
They weren't fussed at all, like it was just direct, straightforward,

494
00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:04.200
like come to my office is something the boss would say,

495
00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:07.160
whereas I'd be like, Hi, how you going? Have you

496
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:09.119
got two sex? Just to drop round for a moment,

497
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:12.680
I please, if you're not too busy. So true, sure,

498
00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:14.960
we're just being nice and polite. Maybe that's part of it,

499
00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:17.680
but I think it's interesting to consider how that language

500
00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:21.079
has evolved. Another example is that women actually talk less,

501
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:23.960
we take up less time, and so we all have

502
00:23:24.039 --> 00:23:26.640
this view that women talk more right and in social

503
00:23:26.680 --> 00:23:30.000
settings that is true. Women talk more farm or in

504
00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:32.240
one on one conversations, and they talk far more in

505
00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:35.759
conversations with friends and family and girlfriends. In workplaces, women

506
00:23:35.799 --> 00:23:39.799
talk less, substantially less than men, and you might not

507
00:23:39.799 --> 00:23:41.880
notice it, but next time you're in a meeting of

508
00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:44.839
any sort, just take a moment to observe how the

509
00:23:44.839 --> 00:23:47.920
men and women behave differently. And if you want an

510
00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:51.359
example on live television, there was a great audit done

511
00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:53.880
of Q and A, the political program on the ABC.

512
00:23:54.799 --> 00:23:58.839
An audit done of how much men and women panelists talked,

513
00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:01.880
like how much percentage of time they took up of

514
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:05.960
the show, and all of the women took up less

515
00:24:05.960 --> 00:24:08.599
than their fair share. So if there were five panelists,

516
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:10.599
all of the women took up far less than twenty

517
00:24:10.599 --> 00:24:12.599
percent of the talking time, and the men would take

518
00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:15.920
up far more. And even when the audience had complained

519
00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:18.160
about women who speak too much. So if you think

520
00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:20.039
about a women who appeared on the Q and a

521
00:24:20.119 --> 00:24:21.880
panel who people tend to get up in the arms

522
00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:24.319
about it, so, oh, she just dominated the panel, she

523
00:24:24.359 --> 00:24:26.119
wouldn't shut up that kind of stuff.

524
00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:27.880
Van Badam is one of those.

525
00:24:28.039 --> 00:24:32.319
Catherine Devinie, when they assessed those women's contribution, their contribution

526
00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:36.200
was very close to or exactly twenty percent, really, So

527
00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:39.640
it's about our perception and this men's and women's perceptions.

528
00:24:39.640 --> 00:24:42.599
This isn't just men perceiving things unfairly. Women do it

529
00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:45.359
too right, which means we also apply it to ourselves.

530
00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:48.720
Our perception of when we've spoken too much, or contributed

531
00:24:48.759 --> 00:24:51.920
too much, or kind of been a bit overbearing of

532
00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:54.680
ourselves is very different to how we would perceive it

533
00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:57.640
for men. And when a woman speaks even her fair

534
00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:00.799
share in a big meeting or on television, we think

535
00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:02.000
she's a bit pushy.

536
00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:05.079
The other one that was brought to my attention recently

537
00:25:05.720 --> 00:25:08.640
was that because I have to come into the studio

538
00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:12.359
sometimes to record voiceovers when we have sponsors on this show.

539
00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:15.000
And the last time I did that, I was reading

540
00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:17.880
through the script and the director kept saying to me, Cass,

541
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:20.440
you keep ending every sentence like a question.

542
00:25:20.920 --> 00:25:23.000
It's the upspeak at your foot inflection.

543
00:25:23.240 --> 00:25:25.519
Yeah yeah, And I didn't even realize that I was

544
00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:27.880
doing it, but having somebody pointed out to you every

545
00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:29.599
time made me so aware.

546
00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:31.440
And that's another thing I know women do a lot

547
00:25:31.559 --> 00:25:31.960
as well.

548
00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:36.000
Yeah, So that's speaking like that, and you add that

549
00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:39.000
to the end of each sentence, and it is permissive language.

550
00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:39.240
Again.

551
00:25:39.319 --> 00:25:41.880
The reason or not permissive language, it's a permissive sound

552
00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:45.599
because what you're doing with that sentence is saying is that, Okay,

553
00:25:46.200 --> 00:25:46.720
do you mind?

554
00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:48.839
Can I keep going? Do you agree?

555
00:25:49.240 --> 00:25:52.759
And you're softening what you're saying, and it's unconscious and

556
00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:56.599
you've developed that because you're asking permission to be part

557
00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:59.880
of the conversation. And really interestingly, upspeak started to get

558
00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:03.880
really heavily criticized about five ten years ago.

559
00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:05.000
Online.

560
00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:07.839
There were masses of articles. People used to call it

561
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:11.680
valley girls speak. If you think of like share in clueless,

562
00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:14.839
that kind of thing, and that's when people started to

563
00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:18.480
develop a new kind of speech pattern, particularly women, which

564
00:26:18.519 --> 00:26:22.039
is that Kardashian drawl where you go down and you

565
00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:24.000
kind of I can't do it very well, taper off

566
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:26.000
at the end of the sentence. And apparently that was

567
00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:27.960
a lot of women started from a lot of women

568
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:31.440
trying to actively stop doing the up speak.

569
00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:32.000
Wow.

570
00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:36.039
Something else that I noticed that women do, Jamilla is

571
00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:38.599
even where they position themselves in the room, where they

572
00:26:38.599 --> 00:26:42.759
sit in a meeting is almost designed to keep themselves

573
00:26:42.759 --> 00:26:43.400
in the background.

574
00:26:43.799 --> 00:26:45.079
Oh yeah, absolutely.

575
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:49.160
So this comes to the physicality I suppose of confidence

576
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:52.599
and our willingness to take up space. And if you

577
00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:55.920
think of a woman in your life who's particularly under

578
00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:59.839
confident or particularly kind of doesn't want to be seen

579
00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:02.119
and doesn't want to be noticed in the world, you

580
00:27:02.200 --> 00:27:04.880
tend to make yourself physically.

581
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:05.079
Small, right.

582
00:27:05.160 --> 00:27:07.519
You sort of hunch your shoulders, You'll often wear your

583
00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:09.920
hair quite long, and cover your face. All of these

584
00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:14.640
are physical manifestations of trying to make the world not

585
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:18.200
notice you. And women tend to make themselves physically small

586
00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:19.880
in the workplace, and one of the ways they do

587
00:27:19.960 --> 00:27:23.319
that is in big meetings where women will.

588
00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:25.039
Sit and where they choose to sit. It is very

589
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:25.680
different to men.

590
00:27:25.880 --> 00:27:27.759
Men are much more likely to take a seat at

591
00:27:27.799 --> 00:27:29.480
the head of the table or in the center of

592
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:30.200
the long part.

593
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:30.519
Of a table.

594
00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:32.200
If you think of like the you know, the big

595
00:27:32.200 --> 00:27:35.920
long tables. If you have a round table, everyone gets

596
00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:37.960
to be even. But if you've got one of those

597
00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:40.799
big long tables, there are power positions on that table.

598
00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:43.720
Some positions are worth more than others. When I worked

599
00:27:43.759 --> 00:27:46.839
in Canberra in politics, I worked for the Rudden Gillard

600
00:27:46.880 --> 00:27:50.640
governments and I had a period during the gillad government

601
00:27:50.680 --> 00:27:52.960
where I was chief of staff to one of the ministers,

602
00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:54.480
and I used to have to attend these chiefs of

603
00:27:54.519 --> 00:27:58.480
Staff meetings which were in this big boardroom adjacent to

604
00:27:58.519 --> 00:28:01.480
the Prime Minister's office. So if you're talking about intimidating

605
00:28:01.519 --> 00:28:04.359
spaces like this is an intimidating space right, big oak

606
00:28:04.440 --> 00:28:08.240
table overlooking the Prime Minister's courtyard. And it didn't have

607
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:10.440
enough seats around that oak table for all the chiefs

608
00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:13.359
of staff, so there were another ring of seats, just

609
00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:15.559
kind of ordinary office chairs around the edge of the

610
00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:17.920
room for if you needed to sit there. So we

611
00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:20.119
would go into this meeting and I always found it

612
00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:24.920
fascinating watching who would sit where. I think I attended

613
00:28:24.920 --> 00:28:28.680
that meeting probably a couple of dozen times, and it

614
00:28:28.759 --> 00:28:31.079
was only on the last meeting that I got the

615
00:28:31.079 --> 00:28:33.039
confidence up to sit at that main table, and I

616
00:28:33.079 --> 00:28:34.319
think I did it for about ten seconds.

617
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:35.920
I went, oh, nope, don't belong here. I went and

618
00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:36.799
sat on the edge.

619
00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:38.920
And one of the things I noticed was the very

620
00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:41.319
few women in that room. Was mostly men who were

621
00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:44.440
chiefs of staff to ministers and the prime minister. But

622
00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:46.640
even men who were chiefs of staff to very junior

623
00:28:46.680 --> 00:28:49.440
ministers or parliamentary secretaries were very willing to sit at

624
00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:52.880
the table, very willing to literally take their seat at

625
00:28:52.920 --> 00:28:55.519
the table, whereas the often the women chiefs of staff

626
00:28:55.519 --> 00:28:57.839
to quite senior people were quite happy to sit on

627
00:28:57.880 --> 00:29:02.000
the outside. And that assertion of status through your physical

628
00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:04.640
place in the room, it's really interesting, and I think

629
00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:07.799
it's worth saying to women who feel under confident and

630
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:10.799
going what can I do? Well, why not try sitting

631
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:13.279
somewhere else just through a day. And I say that

632
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:15.519
having been too scared to do it myself, so it's

633
00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:16.480
okay if you wimp out.

634
00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:20.839
Well, that leads me to another question. I wanted to

635
00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:24.319
ask you, which is for anybody listening to this, they

636
00:29:24.359 --> 00:29:26.799
may well take on board the message, well, okay, well,

637
00:29:26.839 --> 00:29:29.759
obviously I need to just be more assertive, and I

638
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:31.279
need to change how I speak, and I need to

639
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:32.920
ask for what I need and all of the rest

640
00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:36.160
of it. But oftentimes, when women go ahead and adopt

641
00:29:36.599 --> 00:29:40.119
those what we would consider to be the typically masculine

642
00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:43.000
kind of behaviors, they're actually not rewarded for it.

643
00:29:43.160 --> 00:29:44.920
Yeah, they're punished for it.

644
00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:48.640
That's absolutely right, because we like men to behave like that,

645
00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:51.359
we don't like women to behave like that. We actually

646
00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:54.599
don't have a formula yet for what a socially likable,

647
00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:57.920
powerful woman is in the workplace. We haven't come up

648
00:29:57.960 --> 00:29:59.599
with that as a culture yet. We haven't evolved to

649
00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:03.599
that point, and that's so depressing. And one of the

650
00:30:03.640 --> 00:30:07.039
things we see is that male executives are often very

651
00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:11.119
well liked when they're very senior, whereas female executives generally aren't.

652
00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:14.680
They're often feared and respected, but they're not necessarily liked.

653
00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:18.400
And women have to choose between success and lackability in

654
00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:20.799
the workplace, and that comes down to all of those

655
00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:26.720
cultural confidence issues that we've talked about before, and I

656
00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:28.799
think I should make I should really make the point

657
00:30:28.839 --> 00:30:31.119
here because it sounds a little bit like I'm criticizing

658
00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:32.680
and saying, don't do this, and you're doing this wrong,

659
00:30:32.680 --> 00:30:35.240
you're doing this wrong. I'm pointing out these things that

660
00:30:35.240 --> 00:30:37.559
we do unconsciously, and we do them in response to

661
00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:40.519
a sexist environment. Some of them you might want to change.

662
00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:42.960
Some of them. Just by being aware of them has

663
00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:45.359
made me feel more confident. And that's, you know, just

664
00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:48.759
being aware that, oh I do that, or I do that,

665
00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:50.640
or I feel like that, or I respond like that,

666
00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:53.799
not because I'm less, not because I'm bad, not because

667
00:30:53.799 --> 00:30:57.400
I'm not good enough, but because the world has socialized

668
00:30:57.440 --> 00:30:59.279
me to think I've got a respond like that.

669
00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:01.720
I think that is a great point. I'm really glad

670
00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:04.079
that you made that point because I agree. I think

671
00:31:04.119 --> 00:31:06.440
once you become aware that this is not it's not

672
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:09.440
something wrong with me, it almost it takes that I

673
00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:13.359
can stop that in a self critical voice and realize that, Okay,

674
00:31:13.400 --> 00:31:15.559
well this is why I feel this way, and that's okay,

675
00:31:16.519 --> 00:31:18.000
and I can you know, I can still get on

676
00:31:18.039 --> 00:31:19.799
and do what I need to do and realize that

677
00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:21.079
it's do you know.

678
00:31:21.640 --> 00:31:24.279
Do you know what the descriptor is that most powerful

679
00:31:24.319 --> 00:31:28.680
women will use to talk about themselves. First, hard working?

680
00:31:29.279 --> 00:31:32.440
If you ever called yourself hard working? Yeah, probably, I

681
00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:35.240
always call myself hard working. Now, that sounds like a

682
00:31:35.240 --> 00:31:36.599
really good thing, and it is a really good thing

683
00:31:36.599 --> 00:31:38.160
to work hard. Like, I am not telling everyone to

684
00:31:38.200 --> 00:31:41.240
like slack off now, but hard working is a really

685
00:31:41.240 --> 00:31:43.519
interesting way to sell yourself in the first place, right,

686
00:31:43.559 --> 00:31:46.559
because working hard is something you want from your employees, absolutely,

687
00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:51.599
but working hard isn't actually what the employer wants. The

688
00:31:51.640 --> 00:31:54.119
focus is on working hard to get a result, right,

689
00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:57.359
And men are much more likely to say I got

690
00:31:57.400 --> 00:31:59.960
to where I am based on I'm really good at

691
00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:02.799
it's something, whereas I think women say I.

692
00:32:02.799 --> 00:32:04.920
Got there because I worked really hard.

693
00:32:05.400 --> 00:32:07.799
And look, I'm sure you did work really hard, but

694
00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:10.839
something else was going on too, Right, Like, if tomorrow

695
00:32:11.079 --> 00:32:15.400
I sat down and worked really, really, really hard at

696
00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:19.440
being an engineer, I wouldn't be one and I wouldn't

697
00:32:19.480 --> 00:32:22.440
be any good. If I worked really really hard to

698
00:32:22.440 --> 00:32:25.480
be an Olympic swimmer, I would not become one. This

699
00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:28.279
is not in my skill set. That takes a level

700
00:32:28.359 --> 00:32:32.559
of skill and ability and innate honing of those skills.

701
00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:34.839
And there are things that we're born better at and

702
00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:36.680
we developed to be better at than others.

703
00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:38.680
And I think as women we often use.

704
00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:42.599
Hard work to sort of be more humble, because hard

705
00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:45.839
work isn't bragging, Jimilla. There'll be some people listening who say,

706
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:48.640
but some people, some women do make it to the top,

707
00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:51.119
Like some women are very successful in their careers. So

708
00:32:51.160 --> 00:32:53.519
if there's this so called glass ceiling, like, how come

709
00:32:53.559 --> 00:32:56.079
they're busting through it? What attributes do those women have

710
00:32:56.160 --> 00:32:57.640
that the rest of us apparently don't.

711
00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:00.960
When we come down to the individual level, there are

712
00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:04.200
always outliers. There are always people that are unusual and

713
00:33:04.279 --> 00:33:08.839
extraordinary and circumstances, circumstances that lead to their success. But

714
00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:11.640
until a woman at the top isn't something of note,

715
00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:16.160
But it's just me, another woman. Until I can look

716
00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:18.920
at my tee towel of Australian prime ministers and it

717
00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:23.039
not be entirely white men with black hair in black

718
00:33:23.079 --> 00:33:26.880
suits and one woman with red hair and you notice

719
00:33:26.920 --> 00:33:27.440
her first.

720
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:31.519
Until that's not unusual, we haven't got anywhere right.

721
00:33:31.799 --> 00:33:34.400
And the first is important, The first is terribly important,

722
00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:37.720
and so the second's important too. But while the women

723
00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:40.319
who make it to the top are in such a minority,

724
00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:46.880
such a minority. Until that changes, we haven't got there, right,

725
00:33:46.920 --> 00:33:47.759
we haven't got there.

726
00:33:47.799 --> 00:33:49.039
Of course there are outliers.

727
00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:51.079
Of course there are women breaking through, and those are

728
00:33:51.079 --> 00:33:52.640
the women who are carving the past for the rest

729
00:33:52.640 --> 00:33:54.880
of us. So I'm very excited by those women. But

730
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:58.319
we haven't got there yet. Our boardrooms are still absolutely

731
00:33:58.559 --> 00:34:02.799
dominated by men. Of the top two hundred most profitable

732
00:34:02.839 --> 00:34:06.559
companies in Australia, there are more CEOs named Andrew than

733
00:34:06.599 --> 00:34:11.639
there are women. Wow, don't tell me we've got there, no, Jimila.

734
00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:15.480
I'm often asked to provide quotes for media articles things

735
00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:16.960
like that, and one of the things that I was

736
00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:19.599
recently asked to comment on was this thing called the

737
00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:22.440
queen Bee syndrome, which is essentially where a woman rises

738
00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:25.119
to the top, she achieves a position of power, but

739
00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:28.159
then she kind of guards her territory and she actively

740
00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:31.159
holds other women back. It's not almost like she wants

741
00:34:31.199 --> 00:34:35.519
to be the only queen Bee, the unly successful woman. Now,

742
00:34:35.960 --> 00:34:38.239
before commenting on that, I really wanted to look into

743
00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:40.679
it to what was going on there, And I'm wondering

744
00:34:40.679 --> 00:34:42.760
from your perspective, Do you think this queen Bee syndrome

745
00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:43.719
actually exists?

746
00:34:44.119 --> 00:34:46.440
Or is there something else going on there.

747
00:34:47.480 --> 00:34:50.280
This question, or some version of it, I get so

748
00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:52.880
much from women, and it's often asked in this really

749
00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:56.920
tentative like I don't really want to I'm sorry I.

750
00:34:56.880 --> 00:35:00.000
Should this is probably anti feminist. I probably shouldn't ask.

751
00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:03.119
This, And it's a really good and valid question because

752
00:35:03.119 --> 00:35:05.360
for so many women, the person who's treated them the

753
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:07.519
worst in the workplace has been a woman at the top,

754
00:35:08.199 --> 00:35:13.239
and that's a really difficult reality to sit with. There

755
00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:15.079
are three things I'd say in the response to that.

756
00:35:15.800 --> 00:35:17.519
The first one is yes, I do think we hold

757
00:35:17.559 --> 00:35:20.480
men and women to different standards. And the reason I

758
00:35:20.519 --> 00:35:24.159
say that is from my own experience. So stop for

759
00:35:24.199 --> 00:35:26.440
a moment and imagine you are in a workplace and

760
00:35:26.440 --> 00:35:27.320
you've just had a baby.

761
00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:28.519
You've gone off on leave.

762
00:35:28.360 --> 00:35:30.360
You've enjoyed your maternity leave, and you want to come

763
00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:33.719
back to your position, but you don't want to come

764
00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:34.320
back full time.

765
00:35:34.360 --> 00:35:36.000
You want a bit more time with that baby at home.

766
00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:39.440
So you ask your boss if you could come back

767
00:35:39.480 --> 00:35:43.639
part time, and your boss comes back and says, so sorry,

768
00:35:43.760 --> 00:35:46.519
we can't make your position part time. You can come

769
00:35:46.519 --> 00:35:49.119
back full time, or you could come back part time

770
00:35:49.239 --> 00:35:50.559
at a lower status job.

771
00:35:50.440 --> 00:35:53.960
With a lower wage. How do you feel about that boss?

772
00:35:54.039 --> 00:35:54.719
Not very good.

773
00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:58.199
We don't like our boss right now, right now, make

774
00:35:58.239 --> 00:36:01.760
that boss a woman. We like her just that little

775
00:36:01.760 --> 00:36:05.599
bit less like I'm that little bit more angry because

776
00:36:05.639 --> 00:36:09.000
I feel like she should get on. You should get it,

777
00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:11.119
you should be on my side here. Now, make that

778
00:36:11.159 --> 00:36:13.320
a woman with young children who was able to return

779
00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:17.000
part time herself. And she is a monster, right, She's

780
00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:21.119
a monster. But she made the very same decision as

781
00:36:21.159 --> 00:36:24.360
that first bloke. She made the very same decision as

782
00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:26.000
that first bloke. Now, I'm not saying it was a

783
00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:28.199
good decision. I think it was a rubbish decision. But

784
00:36:29.199 --> 00:36:31.920
I think we need to hold men and women to

785
00:36:31.960 --> 00:36:34.000
the same standard, and we need to look at the

786
00:36:34.039 --> 00:36:37.360
way we are responding and question ourselves. Am I holding

787
00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:39.320
someone to different standards? And I know I'm guilty of

788
00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:41.760
it myself. I've definitely done it. And I think the

789
00:36:41.800 --> 00:36:44.519
answer is not to lower the standards we hold women to,

790
00:36:44.599 --> 00:36:47.039
It's to raise the standards we hold men to. In

791
00:36:47.079 --> 00:36:50.679
that scenario, great point. I think one of the one

792
00:36:50.679 --> 00:36:53.639
of the problems also is that when we're in an organization,

793
00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:55.960
particularly a big organization, and we look to the top,

794
00:36:56.519 --> 00:36:59.199
we often see very few women at the very top.

795
00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:02.079
So say there's a boardroom with ten seats and there's

796
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:05.119
only one woman in that executive boardroom of ten seats.

797
00:37:05.480 --> 00:37:07.239
We go, we look up and we go, I want

798
00:37:07.239 --> 00:37:09.480
to be that. Do you look up and say I

799
00:37:09.559 --> 00:37:11.400
want to be in that boardroom or do you look

800
00:37:11.480 --> 00:37:14.000
up and say I want to be her? Because as

801
00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:16.239
soon as you say I've got to get me one

802
00:37:16.239 --> 00:37:20.119
of those women spots, every other woman becomes your competitor,

803
00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:24.400
and the men kind of fade away as competition rather

804
00:37:24.440 --> 00:37:27.159
than saying, hey, we've only got one of the ten

805
00:37:27.239 --> 00:37:30.559
at the top. I could have any of those ten spots.

806
00:37:31.400 --> 00:37:33.679
There could be five women in that executive suite. Hell,

807
00:37:33.719 --> 00:37:37.199
they could be ten. But I think our our minds

808
00:37:37.239 --> 00:37:40.800
perceive it in a way that means we see very

809
00:37:40.880 --> 00:37:43.360
quickly other women as competitors. And the third thing I

810
00:37:43.360 --> 00:37:46.280
wanted to mention with that Queen Bee syndrome is often

811
00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:48.800
to fight your way to the top. For women now

812
00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:52.159
in this system that still really pushes back against them,

813
00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:55.960
you have to have been pretty steely, and you have

814
00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:57.519
to have been pretty single minded.

815
00:37:57.639 --> 00:37:59.000
And I don't mean that in a negative way.

816
00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:00.719
I think all power to you if you got there,

817
00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:03.920
But I think once you're there, it's very easy to

818
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:07.519
focus on battening down the hatches around you and holding

819
00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:08.400
on at all costs.

820
00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:09.679
And you're probably fighting.

821
00:38:09.320 --> 00:38:11.920
Some pretty serious battles at the top there, and I

822
00:38:11.960 --> 00:38:14.519
think that can come at the expense of helping other women.

823
00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:19.079
And my favorite story is the one from Michelle Obama

824
00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:21.519
who says, once you're at the top there, once you've

825
00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:24.639
cracked that glass ceiling, your job is not to close

826
00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:27.039
the trap door like a queen bee. Your job is

827
00:38:27.039 --> 00:38:28.960
to let down a ladder and help up as many

828
00:38:29.119 --> 00:38:30.280
women as you possibly can.

829
00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:33.679
This is a really enlightening conversation, Jamiller. And one thing

830
00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:35.960
that our listeners have come to love about our show

831
00:38:36.199 --> 00:38:38.440
is that we always give them some really practical tips

832
00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:40.639
that they can go away and start applying in their lives.

833
00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:44.239
So if they're recognizing themselves in this conversation, that they

834
00:38:44.239 --> 00:38:48.679
can take away some tips and some strategies and some

835
00:38:48.760 --> 00:38:51.320
things that they can reflect on. So what would be

836
00:38:51.559 --> 00:38:55.400
your kind of top tips I guess for women listening ah.

837
00:38:55.159 --> 00:38:57.159
I've got so many tips, I've got so many suggestions.

838
00:38:57.960 --> 00:39:00.480
I just love doing the research for this peace of work,

839
00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:02.920
so I came out of it with so many ideas,

840
00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:05.840
and the book is full of a lot of practical

841
00:39:05.880 --> 00:39:07.920
stuff how you can get around this. A few ones

842
00:39:07.960 --> 00:39:10.960
that I think have been really helpful. The ones I'm

843
00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:13.679
going to focus on are around confidence and around asking

844
00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:16.440
for more money, because that's what I get asked the

845
00:39:16.519 --> 00:39:19.559
most by women. So firstly, when you are asking for

846
00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:22.559
more money, prepare. You will be more confident if you

847
00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:26.239
are prepared. And by that I mean keep a record

848
00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:28.639
between when your pay is set and when you're going

849
00:39:28.679 --> 00:39:31.360
to ask for a pay rise of things you did

850
00:39:31.880 --> 00:39:34.480
and things you achieved, because it's kind of like having

851
00:39:34.480 --> 00:39:36.960
an argument with your partner and then you get to

852
00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:38.559
the point where you're like, and you did this like

853
00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:41.000
seventeen other times and I can't remember any of them,

854
00:39:41.000 --> 00:39:43.320
but you did it. You can't remember any of the

855
00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:45.119
good stuff you did in the year and a half

856
00:39:45.159 --> 00:39:47.280
since you last had your pay set. So keep a

857
00:39:47.320 --> 00:39:50.480
record every time you have a moment of particular praise

858
00:39:50.519 --> 00:39:52.760
from your boss, or you get an award, or someone

859
00:39:52.760 --> 00:39:56.280
says you were outstanding or you achieve something at work,

860
00:39:56.519 --> 00:39:58.360
just file it away in a folder so that when

861
00:39:58.360 --> 00:39:59.960
it comes time for you to ask for more money,

862
00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:03.559
you have evidence, so be prepared. The second one is

863
00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:06.880
when you're asking for more money, talk about why you

864
00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:10.000
deserve more money, not why you want more money. That's

865
00:40:10.119 --> 00:40:13.679
really greatly important. And third, you're more powerful in a

866
00:40:13.719 --> 00:40:15.599
group than you are on your own. So if it

867
00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:18.559
is possible to work together in your workplace to ask

868
00:40:18.559 --> 00:40:21.039
for more money, if it's possible to contact your employer

869
00:40:21.079 --> 00:40:23.599
association or your union, if it's possible to work with

870
00:40:23.679 --> 00:40:27.400
other colleagues, do that because you have more institutional power

871
00:40:27.719 --> 00:40:29.840
the more of you there are, So that's the pay

872
00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:33.239
rise front great in terms of more general confidence space.

873
00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:38.199
I really love Amy Cuddy's power posing video. It's a

874
00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:40.880
ted talk on YouTube. It's one of the most watched

875
00:40:40.920 --> 00:40:44.119
YouTube videos of all time, which is just ridiculous and awesome.

876
00:40:44.679 --> 00:40:48.320
And she has run a study that showed she actually

877
00:40:48.320 --> 00:40:51.880
gave people money to gamble right, and before the gambling,

878
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:55.320
she would try and raise their courtisol or not raise

879
00:40:55.360 --> 00:40:58.440
their courtsol by getting them to do powerful posing in

880
00:40:58.480 --> 00:40:59.440
the mirror for two minutes.

881
00:40:59.480 --> 00:41:00.599
It sounds really absurd.

882
00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:03.719
But the group that did more powerful posing that included

883
00:41:03.800 --> 00:41:07.639
like posing like one wonder woman or a Facebook executive

884
00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:09.599
or she has all these brilliant names for them, a

885
00:41:09.639 --> 00:41:12.280
silver back guerrilla. The ones who did this posing for

886
00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:14.639
two minutes in the mirror looked at themselves and said

887
00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:18.280
I am powerful and held these powerful positions. They had

888
00:41:19.159 --> 00:41:22.119
evidence of increased cortisol in their system, which gave them

889
00:41:22.119 --> 00:41:24.639
more adrenaline, which made them feel more powerful, which meant they.

890
00:41:24.519 --> 00:41:26.679
Were more likely to gamble. Now, if you're about to

891
00:41:26.679 --> 00:41:27.920
go gambling, that is bad.

892
00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:29.599
But if you're about to go into a big meeting

893
00:41:29.679 --> 00:41:32.239
and you need a confidence boost, that's only going to

894
00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:36.039
be helpful, right, So I reckon that's worth giving a go.

895
00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:38.599
It sounds ridiculous, but I think it's helpful. And my

896
00:41:38.719 --> 00:41:41.239
challenge would be to figure out what your equivalent of

897
00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:43.920
the word just is, Like mine what your word of

898
00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:47.159
apology is, and try to not include it in just

899
00:41:47.239 --> 00:41:49.840
your emails. Don't have to do it in language, that's

900
00:41:49.880 --> 00:41:52.000
really hard to do it in spoken word, but just

901
00:41:52.039 --> 00:41:53.880
try and get rid of it from your emails for

902
00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:56.000
a week and see if it changes the way people

903
00:41:56.039 --> 00:41:56.599
respond to you.

904
00:41:57.119 --> 00:41:59.239
I think that is a fantastic one, and I know

905
00:41:59.360 --> 00:42:01.679
I do the same, and in fact, I've almost done

906
00:42:01.719 --> 00:42:03.920
the opposite. Like if I'm on the hop and I'm

907
00:42:03.920 --> 00:42:06.280
writing an email and it's very direct, I will actually

908
00:42:06.360 --> 00:42:08.400
go back and go, oh god, that was a bit hard.

909
00:42:08.599 --> 00:42:09.280
That's a bit harsh.

910
00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:11.079
I better soften that a bit. And you're adding the

911
00:42:11.079 --> 00:42:15.639
little niceties to soften it all down. So great point, Jamilla.

912
00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:18.239
Thank you so much for coming in today. This has

913
00:42:18.360 --> 00:42:23.000
just been the most interesting and enlightening conversation. I really

914
00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:25.280
appreciate your time. I know our listeners are just going

915
00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:25.880
to love this.

916
00:42:26.320 --> 00:42:27.639
Oh thank you, It's been so much fun.

917
00:42:29.119 --> 00:42:29.360
Thank you.

918
00:42:31.119 --> 00:42:35.599
I absolutely love Jamilla's straight up practical ideas for how

919
00:42:35.639 --> 00:42:38.000
we can start to be more confident in the workplace.

920
00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:41.280
You can find loads more of her practical wisdom in

921
00:42:41.320 --> 00:42:43.559
her book Not Just Lucky, And of course you can

922
00:42:43.559 --> 00:42:46.920
find Jamilla on Twitter, Instagram, or Facebook or at her

923
00:42:46.920 --> 00:42:51.480
website jamillaisbe dot com. We love hearing from you, so

924
00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:53.719
if you love this show, please give it a rating

925
00:42:53.760 --> 00:42:56.760
and a review on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts,

926
00:42:57.000 --> 00:42:59.719
or get in touch with me personally hello at castone

927
00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:02.880
dot com. Also, if you're interested in the Crappy to

928
00:43:02.920 --> 00:43:04.760
Happy book, which I've just released.

929
00:43:05.079 --> 00:43:06.639
It's available for order.

930
00:43:06.440 --> 00:43:08.519
And the link is in the show notes, or you

931
00:43:08.559 --> 00:43:09.960
can come to my website cast.

932
00:43:09.800 --> 00:43:10.679
Doone dot com.

933
00:43:10.840 --> 00:43:13.320
In the next episode, I'm talking to Rebecca Sparrow, who's

934
00:43:13.320 --> 00:43:15.880
the author of the Asking Me Anything books, and we're

935
00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:19.880
talking about the issues facing tweens and teens and how

936
00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:22.239
to improve our relationship with our kids.

937
00:43:23.599 --> 00:43:26.360
Crappy to Happy is presented by Cash Dunn, produced by

938
00:43:26.400 --> 00:43:36.519
David Lenski, Audio production by Darcy Thompson. Listener