Jan. 10, 2021

Overcoming Thinsanity with Glenn Mackintosh

Overcoming Thinsanity with Glenn Mackintosh
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Overcoming Thinsanity with Glenn Mackintosh
Overcoming Thinsanity with Glenn Mackintosh
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Season 6 Women's Health And Wellbeing Personal Growth & Healing Physical Health

Cass talks with fellow psychologist Glenn Mackintosh about the trap of diet culture and how you can escape it, while still aiming for optimal health. Glenn specialises in the psychology of weight management, eating, moving and body image and is on a mission to help as many people as possible to heal their relationship with food, movement and their own bodies. You can buy Glenn's book Thinsanity here: https://tinyurl.com/hxfx3cc8
Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
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Transcript
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A listener production. Hey, you're listening to Crapya Happy. I'm

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your host, Cas Dunn. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist,

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a mindfulness meditation teacher, and author.

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Of the Crappy to Happy books.

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This is the show where we talk about all the

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things that might be making you feel crappy and give

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you the tools and tips to help you to overcome them.

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In each episode, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring

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and intelligent people who are experts in their field. And

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my hope is that you take something away from these

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conversations that helps you feel a little bit less crappy

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and more happy. Today, I am thrilled to introduce you

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to my friend, fellow psychologist and author, Glenn Macintosh. Glenn

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specializes in the psychology of weight management, body image, movement,

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and eating, and he is the author of the brand

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new book Thin Sanity, which is a must read for

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anyone's on the endless dieting Merry go round. With years

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of experience helping people to transform their relationships with food

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and exercise and with their own body, Glenn has so

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much valuable wisdom to share, So before you go on

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yet another diet doing the same thing, expecting a different outcome.

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Please make sure you listen to what Glenn has to say.

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And before I dive in.

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If you are interested in picking up a copy of

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Glenn's book Thinsanity, you can order it from his website

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and use the code CASS to get a handy fifteen

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percent discount.

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Now let's hear from Glenn.

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Glenn so happy to have you on the Crapit a

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happy podcast, and congratulations on the new book Thinsanity.

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Thank you so much for having me, and thanks for Yeah,

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this is me first time author, so WHOA, what a journey.

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It is such a great book.

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I know it's been really really well received and I

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couldn't wait to talk to you some more about it.

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So first up, it has a great time. Can you

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please tell us what is thinsanity?

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I'm just laughing, cas because that's what everyone says. They say,

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cool title, what is insanity? So in insanity is this

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craziness that so many of us have when we're obsessed

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with being thinner, no matter for a lot of us,

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no matter what size and shape we actually are. And

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Einstein said, you know that quote from Einstein, He said

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that you know, insanity is doing the same thing over

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and over again and expecting different results. And that's exactly

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what I see a lot of people doing in their

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pursuit of weight loss. We know that if we look

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at the data, about ninety seven percent of people will

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fail a diet in the long term. So people will

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lose weight. Most people will lose weight, most people won't

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lose as much weight as they want to, and then

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within the next two to five years they regain it

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all with interest. They do what we call the Nike's

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Swoosh of weight loss. You goes down, then shoots back up,

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and then within about five years most people gain about

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ten to fifteen percent interest. So you're actually kind of

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making yourself worse. So that's why I think it's kind

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of like insanity around constantly doing a rebranded version because

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all diets get the same, similar type of results and

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expecting that we're going to get different results.

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And so that's pretty standard. Ninety seven percent, that's basically everybody.

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It's basically everybody. It is, you know. I think about

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it like if you were to go to your doctor

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with some type of condition and they were say to you, look,

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I think I've got a three percent chance of fixing

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this you probably wouldn't sign up for whatever the treatment was.

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But the diet industry has hoodwinked us into believing these

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diets' work. So our the public's understanding of the dieting

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process is completely different to what we all know in

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the research.

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So why is it then that we are also fixated

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on this elusive goal of losing weight and getting thin.

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We live in this strange society that at the same

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time has this really gross idealization of people in thin

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bodies like we That thin ideal makes us believe that

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being thin is going to make us the most happy

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comp happy. Yet it's like the key to happiness. And

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also on the other side of it, we live in

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this society that really stigmatizes people in larger bodies. So

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I say, and you might remember this from the book,

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I say that I think weight is one of the

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last remaining socially acceptable stigmas. You know, we are in

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a society where we are saying no to sexism, we

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are saying no to homophobia, we are saying no to

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racism more so than ever before. You could argue you

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doesn't mean these problems don't exist, but there is sort

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of an official our society have publicly said they shouldn't,

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whereas I still think a society it's kind of okay

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to hang it on fat people, and some people even

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think that it's helpful.

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Yeah, okay, I'm glad you mentioned that because I think

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that apart from this fixation on the thin ideal and

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the images that we see of the perfect ideal body

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that we're supposed to all aspire to, we've also been

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told for years that there is an obesity epidemic and

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that we all need to lose weight, we need to

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exercise more and eat less so that we can be

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more healthy. And I feel like a lot of people

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will say, for me, it's not about being thin. I

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don't necessarily need to be a size eight, but I

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just need to be healthy. So is there an obesity epidemic?

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And is that a justification for wanting to diet and

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lose weight?

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The obesity epidemic is such an interesting idea because one

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thing we know, and you know this being a psychologists,

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you know this from supporting people to changes. I think

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psychologists know this really really well, is that we're not

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good at changing when we feel as though we're problems

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to be fixed or we're somehow defective, you know you,

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And to look at that as it relates to eating

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and exercise and weight and body image concerns, you can't

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hate yourself healthy. If we look at the word obesity

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for a lot of people, that's you know, a medical

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technical term, but the way that a lot of us

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experience it, especially people who live in larger bodies, is

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as highly stigmatizing.

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It's a personal flaw, right, Yeah.

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It's a personal floor. There's something wrong with you. Even

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the word I mean you think about where we are

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today with the coronavirus. You know, the words epidemic. It's

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so emotionally charged. And so what these these terms do

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is that they're overly emotive, they're overly stigmatizing. And what

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we know is that weight stigma. So I'm not talking

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What I'm not talking about herecas is not living in

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a larger body. I'm talking about not bem I I'm

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talking about feeling as if you're, like you say, there's

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something wrong with you, feeling as if you're too fat

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to fit into society. And we know that people who

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experience weight stigma, they're less likely to go and connect

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with the health professionals because they're worried that health professionals

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are going to make them feel even more weight stigma.

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They actually eat more rather than less, and they're less

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likely to exercise, especially in public, which makes sense because

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there's a sense of maybe shame or embarrassment around their body.

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So if you think of those things, less likely to

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seek health care, more likely to overeat, less likely to exercise.

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These are not the things that you want if you're

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someone who's worried about your weight and your health. So

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I think that the obesity epidemic is probably you know,

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those terms, I believe do more harm good.

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And so, Glenn, you talk about the diet industry, we're

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becoming increasingly aware of what is known as the diet culture.

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I would really like it for people who are unfamiliar

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with that term. Can you tell us what diet culture is?

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Yeah? Yeah, Diet culture is a term that we're hearing

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more and more of, isn't it. And diet culture is

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this culture where we're so obsessed with starting diet after diet,

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looking for the next big thing. We spend a lot

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of time in our social groups talking about the weight

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we want to lose or the next diet we're going

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to go on and even sort of moves into you know,

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the way that we treat other people in society, like

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who we give jobs to and you know your level

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of employment status, you know, people who are experiencing weight bias.

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And in the book, I obviously talk about thinsanity and

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I think that us living in a dieting culture is

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like us swimming in an ocean of thinsanity, you know,

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and it is all around it. I think that as

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people become more aware of diet culture, you start to

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see it everywhere around you. It's like we are drinking

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it in, we are swimming in it, we are bathing

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in it. It's just it's everywhere. And we're learning more

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and more. We've actually known this from a research perspective

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for years, but we're learning more and more at how

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harmful diet culture can actually be. And the thing about

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diet culture is it's reinforced. Like there are so many

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commercial reasons for diet culture. The thing about thinsanity is

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that the diet industry loves it. You know, us constantly

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talking about trying to change and fix our bodies gets

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us always looking for that next big thing, and that

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the false hope that is sold that doesn't match the

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research at all gets us to buy. And then the

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fact that these things don't work, that kind of ninety

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seven percent failure rate almost everyone gets us then trying

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the next thing, because we don't know that these things

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are so ineffective, because the diet marketing doesn't tell us that,

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it tells us the exact opposite. When we fail, we

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blame ourselves. We feel like we've failed diets rather than

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the diets have failed us. And so but that sucks

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because every time we go around the loop, our self

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esteem takes a hit because we're blaming ourselves. But also

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it leaves us unable to do anything truly different because

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where we're always looking for that next big thing, it's like, oh,

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just did maybe this will work for me. Oh, actually,

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you know what, I didn't invest all of my effort.

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I'll try another one. But if we look at the research,

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they all tend to get similar results. So actually just

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trying a rebranded version of the same thing.

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That is such a great point.

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I notice this time of year, at the time of recording,

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where around that Christmas New Year time, and it seems

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like my social media feed is just full of diet

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and exercise and weight loss programs being advertised. But what

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you say about diet culture, when you really start to

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pay attention, You're so right. It dominates conversations. It's so normal,

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especially for a group of women to get together. I

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don't know if men are the same, but women especially

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they're always cutting out this and doing that.

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And I've tried that. And the thing that I.

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Often point out to people is how often do you

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compliment somebody on their weight loss? And what is the

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message that that is actually sending? Like it's so normal

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and so harmless and innocent. We think it's a positive thing,

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but what is the message that we send every time

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we compliment somebody on being thinner?

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It's an interesting one, and it's a very It's something

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that at least we should take a big pause before, actually,

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because as psychologists, we know that you know, the message

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sent and the one received often worlds apart. And I

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kind of I'm not a big fan of complimenting weight

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loss for a lot of reasons because even if the

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if a lot of my clients will say to me,

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that's kind of like the person saying to me, well

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you were really fat before. Yeah, you know, But even

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if the person sort of boosts them up and they

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feel good about that weight loss compliment, it can lead

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to further in insanity, you know, that they get more

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tied to the weight, because that's a big part of this,

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this th insanity, is being too tied to the number

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on the scales. So it can almost whether it makes

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a person feel good or feel bad, can be kind

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of damaging either way. So I tend to steer clear

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of it. And then if if someone says to you, hey,

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you know what, I've lost all of this weight and

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they're feeling really happy about it, then you can decide

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maybe that's a good opportunity to go, hey, well, good

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on you, you know.

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And I find just trying to find different things to

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compliment people about to remove that message that you're really

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sending that it is it's promoting the ideal, isn't it

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You look good because you're thinner. It's just saying thin

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is good. Anything else is not.

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Yeah, it's promoting the thin ideal. Cass you bang on.

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And I think one thing that you're sort of implying

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there is that the part of this is being so

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connected to the thin ideal, and part of that is,

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you know, that the thin ideal is a bit crazy.

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We know that no one really looks like that apart

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a very very small amount of people. And if we

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look at that thin model ideal, it's really the ideal

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of a pre pubescent girl. So now most people don't

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really look like that, and even fewer beyond their teenage years,

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so it's very unrealistic. But I think when you talk

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about non weight compliments, what comes to me is that

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it's about, you know, having realistic body ideals and not

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defining your yourself by society standards, creating your own body standards.

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But it's also about acknowledging that you are so much

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more than just a body. So I really love that

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idea of nonweight compliments, like hey, you know what, you're

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a great person. You always make me feel really comforted

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and supported. Or if it's about you know, obviously people's

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the way people affect you, in the way they make

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you feel is so much more than what they look like.

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It could be something like, you know what, you just

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have this buzz about you when you walk into the room.

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It just kind of lights up and it excites everyone.

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So there are a million nonweight compliments.

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So Glenn coming back then to this idea that we're

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all cottoning on to diet culture and that this thin

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idea is a bit of a hoax. Then what I

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hear and I know that you do as well, is

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that it's not a diet, it's a lifestyle, which is

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fair enough, right. We want to be healthy, we want

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to be active, we want to eat well. How do

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we tell the difference in ourselves if we are dieting

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or if it is a lifestyle, or if it is

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just a diet thing packaged up and sold as healthy lifestyle.

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This is a really good question, Cas, because it's kind

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of like the diet industry. They know what the research says.

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They know this stuff doesn't work. It's like the best

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repeat business model you could ever get into because it

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just doesn't work. So, you know, weight Watchers just they

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lose someone and they'll just go to Jenny Craik, Jenny Craig,

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you know, they'll lose someone that doesn't matter. They go

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to weight Watchers and they just so it's it's the

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diet industry knows this. But I think now you know,

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we're hearing about diet culture more and non dieting and

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the body positive movement and now we the consumers are

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starting to know that diets don't work. But the diet

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industry is a crafty beast, so they've created all of

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these I call them not a diet diets. You know,

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it's like it's a lifestyle change or no, it's a detox,

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or it's a it's a health plan, and they're really

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just kind of diets in disguise. In the b we

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actually go through And this is something I do with

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my clients all the time, a little diet audit and

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can I talk you through the factors?

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Yes, I would love you to.

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Yes.

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So it's really really simple, and you can do this

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right now yourself, just you know, get a bunch of

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little checkboxes and just just check it off yourself. And

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this is what I do with clients. We just have

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this open discussion and say, okay, well what are you

295
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doing right now? Because it's about what you're actually doing,

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you know what the plan you're on is. But then

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it's also about your intentions around the plan. So you

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said something really really insightful before Cassy said it's you know,

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how do you know if you're your dieting and you

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know a lot of it is actually about checking in

301
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with yourself and what are my intentions here? Deep down?

302
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What am I truly doing this for? Not what am

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I saying that I'm doing it for, but what am

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I actually doing this for. So it does involve a

305
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lot of being real with yourself because, like you said,

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sometimes people say, oh, it's about my health or you know,

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it's when it's really as.

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Long as my health involves losing a couple of dress

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sizes and five key lias.

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Yeah, totally, totally. I'm just laughing to myself because I

311
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think I have these conversations by the time. By the

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time now people come to see me, they've often like

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seen my YouTube videos or they've read my book or something.

314
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They're pretty familiar with the non diet approach, or if

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they're not, I'll tell them and I say, look, my

316
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approach even though everyone who comes to see me wants

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to lose weight, that actually tends to cause more problems

318
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than it cures. So we're gonna we're probably not going

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to focus on weight loss as much as you normally would,

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or maybe even not at all. And people often say, oh, yeah, yeah, totally, yep,

321
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I get that. Yep. That makes a lot of sense,

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and that I know that dieting doesn't work. And then

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often after a few sessions, we have to revisit the

324
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same conversation because it's easy to tell ourselves that it's

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about our health or I just want to have a

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healthy lifestyle, when it might be more related to our

327
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weight or our body image. So these factors, and I

328
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think we've had a really discussion here. It's like about

329
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just being super real with yourself. And these are this

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diet Audit is based on the elements of what we

331
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know as likely to be harmful in the long term.

332
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So what is likely to give you that Nike swoosh

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of weight loss followed by weight regain and also to

334
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put you at a greater risk of mental health conditions

335
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and especially of course eating disorders. The questions to ask

336
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are Number One, am I focusing on my weight when

337
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I'm making a food choice? So at that point of decision,

338
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when I'm deciding what to eat, is this food going

339
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to make me gain weight or lose weight or not

340
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gain weight? If the weight's a big factor when we're

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deciding what to eat, then we've got one out of

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the four dieting factors. The next one is am I

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counting calories? Counting and or limiting calories. That can be

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done in the whole variety of ways. It can be

345
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done in calories, or it can be done in like

346
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macros or the whole all the versions of that. The

347
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next one is number three, is am I skipping meals?

348
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So that can be like I'm just sort of just

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missing meals subtly, or am I actually trying to extend

350
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the time between my meals, like you know, you see

351
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a lot of that, and like the fasting and that

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type of thing. And then the last one is am

353
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I banning myself from certain foods? So am I, you know,

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demonizing certain foods and telling myself that I have no

355
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control over them and not allowing myself to eat them

356
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at all. So we typically do, and i'd encourage you,

357
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if you're listening, to give this a go and just

358
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have a look at where am I am I like

359
00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:44.200
a zero or a one or two or three or four.

360
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And really the long and short of it is that

361
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the more factors you've got, the worse it's likely to

362
00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:57.359
be physically and mentally, especially into long term. So we're

363
00:19:57.359 --> 00:19:59.880
going to want to try and reduce those dieting factors,

364
00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:02.119
so you can get, like you said, the good stuff

365
00:20:02.119 --> 00:20:04.799
out of healthy living without some of that kind of

366
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poison that the diet culture infuses into the mix.

367
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And so would you include in there, I think you

368
00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:15.119
would like that moralizing of food, even clean eating.

369
00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:17.519
I've got to eat clean.

370
00:20:18.039 --> 00:20:22.599
Yeah, I think as it comes down to those the intentions,

371
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you know, and I think that's you know, clean eating

372
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does kind of almost moralize the food. I think, you know,

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because it's clean, and that sort of implies that the

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other food is dirty. And I think it's about being

375
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real with yourself. Like for example, I don't like the

376
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term cheat meal. I don't either, Yeah, but then I

377
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do see some people who will say that word, but

378
00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:48.440
not with that real venomous intention of I'm doing something

379
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really naughty. It's just the words they use. So I

380
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think the words are really important, but I think it's

381
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important that we just check in with ourselves and find,

382
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you know, what is what is the real intention behind them,

383
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because even using the terms of healthy food versus unhealthy food,

384
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that can be like quite judgy for people, you know,

385
00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:10.400
you can that can be a real measuring sick that

386
00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:12.480
we use to judge ourselves by and feel like we're

387
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the best people in the world if we do it,

388
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and like we're terrible people if we don't.

389
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That's where it goes to it, doesn't it. It's when

390
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we start moralizing food. It's it's this moral virtue that

391
00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:26.240
almost gets assigned to my food choices, Like I'm a

392
00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:29.279
better person, yeah, if I'm eating clean.

393
00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:33.119
Yeah. And I think that as as psychologists, we probably

394
00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:39.079
know that. I think that most people judge themselves and

395
00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:43.559
maybe others too much. But I think if you've if

396
00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:47.799
you've got to pick some criteria about like your worth,

397
00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:52.680
your value as a person, surely we can pick better

398
00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:55.839
criteria than what we put in our mouths, you know,

399
00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:58.960
like maybe how we treat people or what comes out

400
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of our mouths. You know, there's just so much better

401
00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:04.519
criteria that we can judge ourselves on rather than what

402
00:22:04.599 --> 00:22:06.400
we put in our mouths. And I think about this.

403
00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:09.799
I think this is a really weird example, But I

404
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:13.359
think about you know, like say, mother Terreiser, Do we

405
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:17.960
know what mother Terreiser ate? Do we know what hitler ate?

406
00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:23.000
Not really, because it wasn't that important exactly.

407
00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:25.160
I've seen a great meme floating around I think I

408
00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:27.000
shared it a couple of years ago. It was something

409
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like mother Teresa never worried about the size of her

410
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thighs because she had shit to do.

411
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She had more important And that's really I think, that's

412
00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:40.079
that's really what we're trying to do, is not. You know,

413
00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:43.000
it's normal for us, of course, to an extent, to

414
00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:45.480
be conscious of our bodies and what we look like

415
00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:48.799
and want to be healthy, and even to want to

416
00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:56.240
change them sometimes. But for so many of us, we

417
00:22:56.319 --> 00:22:59.880
spend so much time and effort and money and men

418
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:04.839
mental energy trying to change our bodies, especially with ways

419
00:23:04.839 --> 00:23:07.119
that don't actually work very well in the long term,

420
00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:10.960
that it's just so much wasted time. You could spend

421
00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:15.480
your time in so many more better ways than worrying

422
00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:17.480
about what your body looks like.

423
00:23:24.359 --> 00:23:27.160
When you start seeing the stuff about diet culture and

424
00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:30.400
the body positive movement and health at every size, and

425
00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:32.960
you start going, oh, okay, so this is all a

426
00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:34.920
bit of a con and I shouldn't be so worried

427
00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:37.799
about what I look like or needing to lose weight.

428
00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:40.240
Then you can make yourself feel bad about.

429
00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:41.680
Yourself for wanting to lose weight.

430
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:45.359
And it's this finding, this balance, isn't it of how

431
00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:48.279
much space it takes up and where? I think that's

432
00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:51.279
the work that you do right, and helping people to

433
00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:55.319
keep this in perspective somehow.

434
00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:57.400
I think so it's about helping people find because we're

435
00:23:57.400 --> 00:24:00.839
all different. It's about helping people find the middle ground

436
00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:05.640
that works for them. I would absolutely not be from

437
00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:07.359
all of the research that I've read and all the

438
00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:10.519
work I've done with literally tens of thousands of people,

439
00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:13.799
I would not be doing my job with a client

440
00:24:13.960 --> 00:24:15.839
or someone who does want of our on my programs

441
00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:19.559
or anyone who we serve if we didn't have that discussion.

442
00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:24.880
It's like, let's look at the thoughts and beliefs that

443
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:29.039
diet culture has interjected. Let's look at how that's affected

444
00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:32.319
your choices to do different diet and exercise plans, and

445
00:24:32.359 --> 00:24:35.240
what that's actually you know, what results that's gotten you

446
00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:38.000
in your life. And then let's look to see if

447
00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:40.200
we would we want to try things a different wave.

448
00:24:40.359 --> 00:24:43.000
It turns out you're like the ninety seven percent of

449
00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:47.960
people that hasn't worked well for But on the other end,

450
00:24:48.039 --> 00:24:50.480
there is this, you know, in the health of every

451
00:24:50.599 --> 00:24:56.039
size community and the body positive community, almost this narrative

452
00:24:56.279 --> 00:25:01.200
that no one should focus on weight at all for

453
00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:06.480
any reason, at any time, and that weight is unimportant.

454
00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:10.559
And I think that that there's some really interesting research

455
00:25:10.599 --> 00:25:13.599
to show that approach works with certain people. I think

456
00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:15.599
there's a lot more research to come, and there is

457
00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:17.640
some research to show that it works better than dieting.

458
00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:21.640
So I think that's a great message. But I also

459
00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:25.759
think that we run into trouble when we have a

460
00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:28.839
one size fits all approach, and we run into trouble

461
00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:32.359
when we go into absolutes like yeah. And I think

462
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:36.200
that that do not have any focus on your weight

463
00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:40.039
at all might work better if everyone could change their

464
00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:42.880
mindset to that perspective. But for a lot of people

465
00:25:42.920 --> 00:25:48.200
that's too far, especially at the start, and so we

466
00:25:48.279 --> 00:25:50.960
need to find that middle ground where maybe it's not

467
00:25:51.079 --> 00:25:53.200
the be all and end all, and maybe you don't

468
00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:56.920
you know, don't forget about it completely and try and

469
00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:00.279
help pretend that it's completely unimportant, but where it's it

470
00:26:00.279 --> 00:26:05.799
occupies one space as one thing that's important in a

471
00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:08.200
whole range of things that are going to make you

472
00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:13.279
a happy, healthy, successful, well adjusted person who's kind of

473
00:26:13.359 --> 00:26:15.480
killing it at life. It's just one I think that

474
00:26:15.559 --> 00:26:17.759
I often just say that often for a lot of us,

475
00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:19.839
weight gets too big for its boots, and so it's

476
00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:21.440
about just putting it in where it can just have

477
00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:24.519
a normal, healthy part in your life. So it is

478
00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:28.519
interesting cast because I think that I'm a funny one

479
00:26:28.519 --> 00:26:33.240
because compared to diet culture, I think a lot of

480
00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:36.640
people look at me and like, yeah, Glenn, but shouldn't

481
00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:38.279
I just want to lose weight? You know. It's like

482
00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:42.319
a really counterculture idea, this type of body positive, non

483
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:45.519
diet message. But then I actually, I don't know if

484
00:26:45.519 --> 00:26:49.400
you know this. I cop a lot of flak from

485
00:26:49.599 --> 00:26:54.359
the pure health at every size community for not going

486
00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:57.079
far enough. But my belief is that it is about

487
00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:00.279
not being on either extreme, but really looking at it

488
00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:04.880
and reflecting, because unless we reflect, we're just probably going

489
00:27:04.920 --> 00:27:06.240
to do the same thing over and over again. Like

490
00:27:06.279 --> 00:27:08.319
having that real pause point going Okay, what have I

491
00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:11.039
been doing and how has that worked? How has my

492
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:13.799
lived experience going through this life showed me that it's worked.

493
00:27:14.119 --> 00:27:16.839
And if it hasn't worked, well, maybe I need to

494
00:27:16.839 --> 00:27:20.440
do something. It's not a rebranded version of the fifty

495
00:27:20.440 --> 00:27:23.440
things that I've done before, but it's actually something that's

496
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:25.200
fundamentally different.

497
00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:26.480
It is interesting.

498
00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:29.559
I think it's so the most important thing I guess

499
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:32.920
for me is coming back to that personal intention.

500
00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:35.440
I mean, as many people know, I'm.

501
00:27:35.240 --> 00:27:38.119
A psychologist and a very popular online health and fitness

502
00:27:38.119 --> 00:27:40.480
program and it's got a meal plan and it's got workouts,

503
00:27:40.519 --> 00:27:43.839
and it's also got mindfulness and meditation and positive psychology

504
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:46.039
and stuff from me. And there are people in that

505
00:27:46.119 --> 00:27:50.119
group who are very much about balance and they love

506
00:27:50.480 --> 00:27:53.480
the access to a recipe library and meals that they

507
00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:56.240
can feed their whole family that are healthy and nutritious,

508
00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:57.680
and it gives them a shopping list. And there are

509
00:27:57.720 --> 00:28:02.039
others who are very much still stuck in that diet mentality.

510
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:05.720
And it's such a personal thing. And you know, it's

511
00:28:05.759 --> 00:28:09.880
not for us to say that anybody shouldn't do those programs,

512
00:28:09.880 --> 00:28:12.359
but it is about rethinking our own mindset, I think.

513
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:13.960
And then when they get in there, I've got to

514
00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:15.920
tell you, like, we do a lot of work around

515
00:28:17.079 --> 00:28:21.200
that self compassion and what's your intention and focusing, throwing

516
00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:25.480
out the scales and all of that kind of mindset change.

517
00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:28.279
That's really nice to hear. I think it highlights what

518
00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:31.400
we're really both agreeing on that it so much comes

519
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:34.960
down to your personal intentions, what you're really doing it for,

520
00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:38.440
and how you're doing the program, whatever you're doing, but

521
00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:41.319
also highlights another really important point, and you've sort of

522
00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:44.160
implied this two caster, is that you get this whole

523
00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:46.400
range of people, say, in that program, you get the

524
00:28:46.400 --> 00:28:48.799
whole variety of people who are like really almost doing

525
00:28:48.839 --> 00:28:51.359
it in like a kind of a weight neutral way.

526
00:28:51.559 --> 00:28:53.759
They're just like the support of the group and the

527
00:28:54.160 --> 00:28:57.000
recipes and everything. And then you get some people who

528
00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:00.319
are hardcore dieting in the same program. I think it's

529
00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:03.559
it's as you know, it's it's your role to help

530
00:29:03.799 --> 00:29:08.519
people move probably shift the needle a little bit in

531
00:29:08.599 --> 00:29:12.400
a way that is right for them and acknowledging where

532
00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:15.480
they're starting from. You know, sometimes I think in this

533
00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:21.200
non diet space, we can get a little creachy or Judgey,

534
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:23.640
which is it's a hilarious irony because it's like all

535
00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:26.200
about a non judgmental approach. And I would say to

536
00:29:26.359 --> 00:29:28.480
you know, sometimes I find that I do it myself,

537
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:31.039
and sometimes I find my clients to as they start

538
00:29:31.079 --> 00:29:33.839
to learn more about this and see the benefits, you know,

539
00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:37.359
they're like they become aware of all this diet culture

540
00:29:37.400 --> 00:29:39.240
around them, and they've just had these such a great

541
00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:41.559
experience of non dieting. It's helped them make peace with

542
00:29:41.640 --> 00:29:44.079
food and love their bodies and find joy in movement

543
00:29:44.319 --> 00:29:45.880
and they want to spread it with the world. And

544
00:29:45.880 --> 00:29:47.279
then but they're like, you should be doing this, you

545
00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:49.720
should be doing this, and it's kind of like, hey,

546
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:53.200
let's chill out on the judgments because and I say

547
00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:55.079
to people, if you if you, if you're you know,

548
00:29:55.160 --> 00:29:59.359
if you've freed yourself from diet culture and you're still

549
00:29:59.559 --> 00:30:03.960
judging people who are immersed in it, try and try

550
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:07.559
to understand where they're coming from. And it's probably not

551
00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:10.599
that hard to understand if you try, because you're probably

552
00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:14.079
immersed in that diet culture very recently yourself. I don't

553
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:16.039
know about ucas as a health professional, but that's where

554
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:17.920
I started, That's what I was taught.

555
00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:21.200
Yeah, I agree, we have to meet people where they're at.

556
00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:24.400
And I guess, you know, as part of my role

557
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:26.960
in that community is a big reason why I'm so

558
00:30:27.079 --> 00:30:30.039
interested in this topic, and because I see and I

559
00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:34.200
hear every day what's going through people's minds. And the

560
00:30:34.200 --> 00:30:36.119
more that you come to understand the more. It kind

561
00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:38.519
of just breaks your heart that people are just so

562
00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:43.920
desperately unhappy and just killing themselves to meet these really

563
00:30:44.039 --> 00:30:47.839
unreasonable expectations and perfectionist attitudes and all or nothing and

564
00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:51.240
exercising purely for losing weight, which actually brings me to

565
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:55.240
Can we talk about exercise for a minute. Yeah, you

566
00:30:55.319 --> 00:30:57.480
said before about loving yourself healthy. A lot of people

567
00:30:57.480 --> 00:31:00.640
have a love hate relationship with exercise. They do with

568
00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:03.759
the intention of losing weight. They hate it. It's a chore.

569
00:31:04.759 --> 00:31:09.079
What's your recommended solution to the movement area?

570
00:31:09.319 --> 00:31:11.640
Yeah, you're totally right. Cast I mean, it's like it's

571
00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:15.279
a no brainer. We all know that moving our bodies

572
00:31:15.400 --> 00:31:17.240
is good for us. We just know it's agree No.

573
00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:21.039
I think of it like a magic pill for your mind,

574
00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:25.319
Like there is nothing that a psychologist can measure that

575
00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:28.319
doesn't get better when we move our body. So our attention,

576
00:31:28.599 --> 00:31:32.000
our concentration, our mood, our decision making, our memory, and

577
00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:34.799
our learning, just everything gets better. It's like a magic pill,

578
00:31:35.799 --> 00:31:37.559
and the same for our bodies, like a fountain of

579
00:31:37.559 --> 00:31:42.839
youth for our bodies. But we know that after starting

580
00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:47.480
a particular exercise plan, over fifty percent and there's lots

581
00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:50.119
of different data on this, and that's a generous, generous number,

582
00:31:50.119 --> 00:31:53.079
but over fifty percent of people will have stopped that

583
00:31:53.160 --> 00:31:55.960
plan within six months. That's kind of like, if it's

584
00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:59.839
so good for us, then why do we stop so quickly?

585
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:02.599
And I think it comes down to what you're saying

586
00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:04.359
is that you know, for so many of us, our

587
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:13.359
automatic implicit association of exercise is it's too hard. It's

588
00:32:13.400 --> 00:32:16.160
if I've been battling my weight all my life. It's

589
00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:18.599
a it's a punishment that I have to do because

590
00:32:18.599 --> 00:32:21.279
I'm too fat, or it's a place where I go

591
00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:23.880
to feel really uncomfortable because I don't know how to

592
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:26.680
use all of these equipment, and I don't know how

593
00:32:26.680 --> 00:32:28.960
to do this group class and everyone else does. So

594
00:32:29.079 --> 00:32:34.440
these are not good associations, and it's of course that's

595
00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:36.839
the reason why we don't stick with it. You know,

596
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:40.599
human beings, we're not good at doing things that we

597
00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:43.559
don't like doing for extended periods of time. We can

598
00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:46.039
do it for short periods of time. And like you said,

599
00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:48.799
a lot of us are, you know, exercising to lose weight.

600
00:32:48.920 --> 00:32:52.400
We know that exercise, regular exercises only really associated with

601
00:32:52.599 --> 00:32:55.480
like a small amount of weight loss. So for expecting

602
00:32:55.480 --> 00:32:57.960
to lose twenty kilos from an exercise plan, then we're

603
00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:00.720
also setting ourselves up for disappointment. So it's like, on

604
00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:03.720
one side, I've got this, I don't like doing it.

605
00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:05.640
On the other side, I've got this, it's not actually

606
00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:08.000
getting me what I want. So it's so easy to

607
00:33:08.039 --> 00:33:11.039
see why it becomes the the last thing on your

608
00:33:11.079 --> 00:33:15.599
priority list and the first thing to drop off. So

609
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:17.559
so what I recommend and this is like, it's a

610
00:33:17.599 --> 00:33:19.880
bit of a weird way of thinking about it, but

611
00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:25.039
it's a I like to help people improve their relationship

612
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:29.599
with movement. So rather than trying to give people the

613
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:31.920
mental skills to get up in the morning and like

614
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:35.359
white knuckle their way into an exercise plan they hate,

615
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:39.960
it's about creating an exercise plan that they love or

616
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:44.640
at least moving in that direction. And sometimes my clients

617
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:47.160
look at me like I've got two heads when I

618
00:33:47.240 --> 00:33:51.480
say this, But we can do it with most of

619
00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:56.160
our people. We really can. And the key is if

620
00:33:56.200 --> 00:33:57.839
you think I like to think about you know, if

621
00:33:57.880 --> 00:34:00.920
you think about your relationship with exercise being like your

622
00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:05.759
relationship with a person, If you think about like your

623
00:34:05.960 --> 00:34:08.840
best friend So if you think about your best friend,

624
00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:11.320
someone you know, you just most love in the world,

625
00:34:11.639 --> 00:34:14.599
and they said to you, Cass, let's catch out for

626
00:34:14.599 --> 00:34:17.760
a coffee or a wine in the next couple of weeks,

627
00:34:18.599 --> 00:34:21.800
would you have time? Yeah, you would. And then if

628
00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:24.840
I ask people to think about okay, now, think about

629
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:29.159
your most annoying relative, and if they asked you the

630
00:34:29.159 --> 00:34:31.159
same question, said, hey, let's catch up in the you

631
00:34:31.159 --> 00:34:32.960
know now case. I'm not saying that you have any

632
00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:34.719
annoying relatives, just a hypothetical.

633
00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:36.280
Suddenly my diary is very full.

634
00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:40.880
Yes, yeah, sorry, Suddenly the diary is very exactly And

635
00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:44.719
so why is your best friend your best friend? Your

636
00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:49.280
best friend is your best friend because when you're around them,

637
00:34:49.400 --> 00:34:54.400
you've experienced positive feelings. So you've been happy, you've been excited,

638
00:34:54.480 --> 00:34:57.159
you've been relaxed, you've been able to be yourself. They've

639
00:34:57.199 --> 00:35:00.760
supported you, and that has happened so many many times

640
00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:05.039
in the past that your memory of that as such

641
00:35:05.079 --> 00:35:08.320
that you go to meet your friend and you're expecting

642
00:35:08.360 --> 00:35:10.760
to have a good time. So what we need to

643
00:35:10.840 --> 00:35:14.519
do is create a similar relationship with movement, where we're

644
00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:17.400
going and expecting that we're going to feel comfortable, we're

645
00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:20.400
going to feel a reasonable degree of confidence, we're going

646
00:35:20.440 --> 00:35:24.360
to feel supported. And often that means not just trying

647
00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:27.880
to positively self talk yourself into something you hate. That's like,

648
00:35:27.960 --> 00:35:30.519
you know, trying to self talk yourself into seeing your

649
00:35:30.519 --> 00:35:35.719
most annoying relative, but actually creating a new style of movement,

650
00:35:35.800 --> 00:35:39.239
really listening to yourself what you like, what you don't like,

651
00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:42.559
and sometimes it involves doing a bit of exploring, but

652
00:35:42.639 --> 00:35:46.760
you end up with having these repeated and often, if

653
00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:50.000
you haven't liked the exercise of the past, a surprisingly

654
00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:53.400
positive experience of moving your body, because we're designed to

655
00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:55.400
move our bodies and we feel better when we do.

656
00:35:55.599 --> 00:35:58.079
So if we take away, like you said, all those

657
00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:00.440
rules about oh I've got to work out for a

658
00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:02.719
certain period of time for it to count, or I've

659
00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:06.039
got to burn a certain amount of calories and actually

660
00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:09.239
start from the different perspective of what do I like,

661
00:36:10.039 --> 00:36:13.519
what do I dislike? And often that means I'll do

662
00:36:13.639 --> 00:36:18.039
things like start small or go you know, get support,

663
00:36:18.360 --> 00:36:21.440
and often it will mean I'll be real It means

664
00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:25.480
that you build your fitness in a slow way. But

665
00:36:26.239 --> 00:36:28.840
the important thing is that we're really focusing on a

666
00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:31.840
long term, lifelong change, So it doesn't matter if it's slower,

667
00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:34.000
because this time it's going to stick, So it doesn't

668
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:36.559
matter if it's a little bit slower. And then you

669
00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:39.239
can find that movement will become like when you see

670
00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:41.519
your best friends, like actually a positive thing that gets

671
00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:44.800
you through life. And you'll find that, you know, my

672
00:36:44.840 --> 00:36:47.519
clients have these strange experiences that often surprise them where

673
00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:51.679
they're like, oh, what a day I need to go

674
00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:54.599
and like box this out and they're like what did

675
00:36:54.639 --> 00:36:58.760
I just like try to like think of exercise first.

676
00:36:58.920 --> 00:37:01.880
They become what I call emotional exercises.

677
00:37:02.280 --> 00:37:05.199
Love it And I want to ask you too, because

678
00:37:05.239 --> 00:37:08.280
I think this leads to or ties very nicely to

679
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:10.400
a question about food too, because we've talked a lot

680
00:37:10.599 --> 00:37:12.519
now in the last half hour or so about the

681
00:37:12.559 --> 00:37:15.159
fact that diets don't work, and of course the question

682
00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:18.400
on everybody's lips is, well, then what do I do instead?

683
00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:24.440
Yeah, that's all right, We've gone from GRAPHI It's like, okay, great,

684
00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:28.440
now what the hell do I do? Where's the happy

685
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:33.559
so again? And it's interesting because I think sometimes this

686
00:37:33.679 --> 00:37:37.519
work can seem a little bit a little bit airy fairy,

687
00:37:38.039 --> 00:37:41.280
or you know, a little bit fluffy, But I think

688
00:37:41.320 --> 00:37:43.639
an important point here is that this work is based

689
00:37:43.639 --> 00:37:47.559
on good science. So there's good science that diets don't work.

690
00:37:47.639 --> 00:37:50.360
Great science. In fact, it's like the jury's gone out,

691
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:53.480
it's come back in and it's delivered the verdict. The

692
00:37:53.480 --> 00:37:56.400
appeals happened the next trial. It's like, we know, but

693
00:37:56.440 --> 00:38:00.480
then we do have this emerging body of research urge

694
00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:05.119
that is showing us that, you know, if we're talking

695
00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:09.320
about having then a positive relationship with food rather than

696
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:14.159
a negative one, that intuitive eaters are people who have

697
00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:16.880
a positive relationship with foods. That's something that you know,

698
00:38:16.920 --> 00:38:22.320
we've all heard about before intuitive eating. But the way

699
00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:25.880
I would describe intuitive eating just in a nutshell is

700
00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:29.519
that intuitive eaters are people who eat well without trying.

701
00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:32.039
So they're the people like and I think these are

702
00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:34.760
the people that often annoy my clients. They're like, oh,

703
00:38:34.840 --> 00:38:37.199
you know, they're the people who say no to like

704
00:38:37.239 --> 00:38:40.880
the second dessert and actually mean it, or the people

705
00:38:40.920 --> 00:38:45.599
that kind of are craving a salad, or the people

706
00:38:45.639 --> 00:38:50.320
that can have the chocolate and that chocolate doesn't turn

707
00:38:50.360 --> 00:38:53.079
into a what the hell I've broken my diet. I

708
00:38:53.159 --> 00:38:55.679
need to now eat ten chocolates, and so this is

709
00:38:55.760 --> 00:38:58.320
just the you know, you can think of intuitive eating

710
00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:01.480
as being having a healthy RelA relationship with food and

711
00:39:02.559 --> 00:39:04.239
one of the keys here and this is why it's

712
00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:06.639
so important to at least, even if we don't take

713
00:39:06.679 --> 00:39:11.119
away that weight focus completely, is to sort of to

714
00:39:11.239 --> 00:39:14.079
lift it off a little bit or to make it smaller,

715
00:39:14.360 --> 00:39:18.440
is because we actually know that when intuitive eaters are

716
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:22.480
making food choices, they're not focusing on how that food

717
00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:26.039
choice affects their weight. They're focusing on other things, a

718
00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:30.199
range of other things, but things like do I actually

719
00:39:30.199 --> 00:39:32.840
want to eat this food? This is food tasty? Am

720
00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:37.280
I going to enjoy this? Things like what is my

721
00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:41.840
body telling me? You know, what are my natural senses

722
00:39:42.119 --> 00:39:45.800
of start and stop, my hunger and fullness saying to me?

723
00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:48.559
So they're more likely to pay attention to those internal

724
00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:51.119
cues of what the body is saying, rather than external

725
00:39:51.159 --> 00:39:53.800
cues of just whether the food is there or whether

726
00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:57.440
I've driven past a KFC or those things. They pay

727
00:39:57.480 --> 00:40:01.239
more attention to the internal cues what the diet absolutely,

728
00:40:01.840 --> 00:40:05.039
what I should or shouldn't eat, or what is healthy

729
00:40:05.119 --> 00:40:08.559
or not healthy absolutely, So it's not a rules based thing.

730
00:40:09.079 --> 00:40:14.199
They're actually paying attention to their body, that internal wisdom,

731
00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:16.679
because you know, you can kind of like you can

732
00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:20.199
figure out your calorie intake based on your height and

733
00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:23.079
your weight and your age and how much exercise you've

734
00:40:23.079 --> 00:40:25.920
done that day and all these things. I tell you,

735
00:40:26.039 --> 00:40:30.360
what does that calculation a million times better than any

736
00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:35.320
algorithm is your body. Your body has done that math

737
00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:39.239
for you. And so if it's it needs nutrition, it's

738
00:40:39.320 --> 00:40:41.800
going to give you some hunger signals. When it's had enough,

739
00:40:41.840 --> 00:40:44.199
it's going to start to make you feel full, and

740
00:40:44.760 --> 00:40:49.599
it will actually tell you what foods make you feel

741
00:40:50.159 --> 00:40:54.760
sluggish and bloated and like you you know you need

742
00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:59.000
to eat again in half an hour because you've just

743
00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:02.039
had a big sugar high low, and what foods make

744
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:08.199
you feel light and fresh and satisfied and energized. So

745
00:41:08.199 --> 00:41:10.880
your body is actually doing all of that for you.

746
00:41:11.039 --> 00:41:15.360
So intuitive eating is about listening to your body. I

747
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:17.599
think something we have to acknowledge there is that, like

748
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:20.519
you said, when we're taking off all of those food

749
00:41:20.679 --> 00:41:26.760
rules and starting to listen to our inner wisdom, that

750
00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:30.639
takes an incredible amount of trust. So that that is

751
00:41:30.679 --> 00:41:32.800
a journey that you know, if you want to become

752
00:41:32.840 --> 00:41:34.880
an intuitive eating you do have to make and it

753
00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:38.000
is one that you know you will fall down on

754
00:41:38.119 --> 00:41:41.119
and it is a learning curve, but I think when

755
00:41:41.199 --> 00:41:45.639
you do it, you will you get to this beautiful

756
00:41:45.719 --> 00:41:48.920
nirvana of someone who eats well without having to obsess

757
00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:50.880
over it and think about it too much. So it

758
00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:52.760
is a great place to be and it's well worth

759
00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:55.360
building some intuitive eating abilities.

760
00:41:55.480 --> 00:41:58.039
And I think that that from everything that you're saying,

761
00:41:58.360 --> 00:42:02.760
that anybody going down that path needs to take the

762
00:42:02.840 --> 00:42:06.320
time to almost heal the relationship with food and learn

763
00:42:06.400 --> 00:42:09.360
to trust their body again, because I think that's the problem,

764
00:42:09.400 --> 00:42:12.360
isn't it. So many people have stopped trusting themselves. They've

765
00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:17.880
stopped trusting their own ability. That completely lost confidence in

766
00:42:17.960 --> 00:42:21.719
themselves because they've blamed themselves for every diet so far

767
00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:26.360
not working. They're calling themselves a failure, and they've stopped

768
00:42:26.360 --> 00:42:29.039
trusting that they can eat the right foods.

769
00:42:29.559 --> 00:42:33.000
Yeah, which makes sense because you know you're learning from

770
00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:37.199
your experience. I've done this four or five, six, seven times,

771
00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:40.840
and I've never yet got the long term results that

772
00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:44.679
I want. And rather than saying is there something wrong

773
00:42:44.760 --> 00:42:46.840
with what I'm trying to do? It's we just we

774
00:42:46.920 --> 00:42:50.000
blame ourselves. And like you said, Cass, is that what

775
00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:53.360
are our diets? It's a prescribed way of eating where

776
00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:55.599
we're telling ourselves this is what you have to eat,

777
00:42:55.599 --> 00:42:58.039
this is what you can't eat, this is how much

778
00:42:58.079 --> 00:42:59.960
to eat, this is when to eat, and so where

779
00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:06.440
all of those rules are undermining our intuitive wisdom. And

780
00:43:06.519 --> 00:43:08.599
so it's about connecting with that, and often I think

781
00:43:08.599 --> 00:43:13.760
it is. It is about bravely, you know, learning to

782
00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:17.760
trust your body again. And thank goodness, the research does

783
00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:20.480
show that we can do this. So there's researching and

784
00:43:20.519 --> 00:43:23.280
you know that I don't like these words, but one

785
00:43:23.320 --> 00:43:29.400
study was in obese female chronic dieties. So we know

786
00:43:29.480 --> 00:43:33.280
that women struggle with this stuff more than men do. Unfortunately,

787
00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:36.039
men are catching up, but women struggle more. We know

788
00:43:36.159 --> 00:43:39.440
that people living in larger bodies struggle more than people

789
00:43:39.480 --> 00:43:43.039
in smaller bodies, not to a huge extent, but they

790
00:43:43.079 --> 00:43:45.679
do a little bit more. And we know that people

791
00:43:45.719 --> 00:43:49.199
who have dieted lots, that they've really become out of

792
00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:52.840
touch with those natural body cues a start stop, and

793
00:43:52.840 --> 00:43:56.199
our food makes them feel. But that research, you know,

794
00:43:56.199 --> 00:43:58.199
which is you know, you couldn't pick a better group

795
00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:00.519
of people who shouldn't be able to get back in

796
00:44:00.599 --> 00:44:03.519
touch with their bodies, and it shows that they absolutely can.

797
00:44:03.639 --> 00:44:06.679
So it is absolutely doable, And I think that's part

798
00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:09.039
of that. You know, we need to send as a psychologists,

799
00:44:09.039 --> 00:44:11.480
we need to send a confidence message to people. But

800
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:13.880
it's not confidence of try and do the same thing

801
00:44:13.880 --> 00:44:15.920
and just give it one more go. It's confidence like

802
00:44:16.199 --> 00:44:19.639
that hasn't worked, and it's understandable that you've got this

803
00:44:19.719 --> 00:44:24.360
sense of hopelessness in that approach. But let's try something

804
00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:27.840
that's truly fundamentally new. So I think if you talk

805
00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:30.800
about diets, you know, rigid diets we know are the

806
00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:33.679
most harmful. That's when you might have like three or

807
00:44:33.719 --> 00:44:37.159
four of those dieting factors that we talked about. Flexible

808
00:44:37.239 --> 00:44:39.599
diets those you know, you can kind of follow this

809
00:44:39.599 --> 00:44:42.639
plan but have a few cheap days or whatever. You know,

810
00:44:42.679 --> 00:44:44.800
however you might word it, they might only have one

811
00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:48.039
or two, and they're less harmful. They're more likely to

812
00:44:48.079 --> 00:44:52.880
be ineffective rather than harmful. But then intuitive eating is

813
00:44:52.920 --> 00:44:56.880
a whole different thing. I think that flexible dieting, rigid dieting,

814
00:44:56.880 --> 00:45:01.119
they're like brothers or maybe cousins whereas intuitive eating is

815
00:45:01.159 --> 00:45:03.800
a whole different animal. It's not even in the same family,

816
00:45:03.800 --> 00:45:05.320
it's a different species.

817
00:45:05.800 --> 00:45:08.719
So, Glenn, you mentioned about skipping meals and extending the

818
00:45:08.719 --> 00:45:11.239
time between meals, and this is a really interesting one

819
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:15.639
because I know people who are fans of five to two,

820
00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:19.280
which I would say probably falls into the criteria of

821
00:45:19.320 --> 00:45:21.960
another diet or approach to food, kind of a rulesy

822
00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:23.960
approach to food. But there are a lot of people

823
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:27.280
who say that they experience a lot of health benefits

824
00:45:27.400 --> 00:45:29.960
lower blood pressure. Do you have an answer for that

825
00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:33.400
about whether that's a diet or whether that's not a diet.

826
00:45:33.679 --> 00:45:38.719
Yeah. So again I think it comes back to your intentions,

827
00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:41.199
and you have to be real about what your intentions

828
00:45:41.239 --> 00:45:45.079
really are. And those four dieting factors. We can put

829
00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:48.840
that to any diet, so we can or any not

830
00:45:48.920 --> 00:45:50.800
even a diet, We can put that to any approach

831
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:54.480
that we're following or thinking of following, and we can

832
00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:57.679
map it out. So if we look at the first

833
00:45:57.679 --> 00:46:03.400
factor is five too making us focus on our weight.

834
00:46:04.280 --> 00:46:06.880
That will depend on the person. I think for most

835
00:46:06.920 --> 00:46:10.320
people it is advertised as a weight loss diet, which

836
00:46:10.360 --> 00:46:14.119
is interesting because there is no research that it results

837
00:46:14.119 --> 00:46:15.760
in long term weight loss, so we need to be

838
00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:18.320
real about that. So if you're doing it for your health,

839
00:46:18.920 --> 00:46:21.400
then you may be able to get health benefits. And

840
00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:24.199
I'll be real if you cash. My research is mainly

841
00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:26.599
in weight because that's what my people are interested in.

842
00:46:27.280 --> 00:46:30.239
And you know, whenever a new thing comes along five

843
00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:34.960
to low carb keito, whatever it is, I always do

844
00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:37.800
the research and see if there's any long term studies,

845
00:46:38.159 --> 00:46:41.639
and I'm never I'm these days, I'm really surprised, but

846
00:46:41.639 --> 00:46:44.480
I'm always disappointed. And so let's be real with that.

847
00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:47.519
There is no long term data to show that five

848
00:46:47.679 --> 00:46:50.880
two results in long term weight loss and doesn't get

849
00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:53.880
that Nike switsh that we all know of. So if

850
00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:58.679
you are doing it for weight loss and you have

851
00:46:58.960 --> 00:47:01.880
been promoted, it's been promoted that this is the answer

852
00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:05.639
to long term weight loss, that is not evidence based.

853
00:47:06.559 --> 00:47:11.760
So that's first thing. Are you counting or limiting your

854
00:47:11.880 --> 00:47:16.039
calories on like a five to two style plan? Again,

855
00:47:16.159 --> 00:47:18.679
it will depend on you. I think that for the

856
00:47:18.840 --> 00:47:21.800
average person doing it is probably a yes as well,

857
00:47:22.159 --> 00:47:28.400
because you're just you're getting You're using the fasting to

858
00:47:28.599 --> 00:47:32.199
reduce your overall calorie intake. Yes, you can eat when

859
00:47:32.320 --> 00:47:35.079
you you know as much or depending on what the

860
00:47:35.119 --> 00:47:37.000
plan is of and you can eat you know, without

861
00:47:37.159 --> 00:47:42.800
restriction in your eating window. But still for a lot

862
00:47:42.840 --> 00:47:45.039
of people, not everyone, but for a lot of people

863
00:47:45.079 --> 00:47:49.039
that is still a way to limit calories. So again

864
00:47:49.119 --> 00:47:52.280
that will depend on the person. So if we're looking

865
00:47:52.280 --> 00:47:54.480
at those two factors, I'd say most people would have

866
00:47:54.519 --> 00:47:56.719
two out of two so far, but not everyone. Some

867
00:47:56.719 --> 00:47:59.920
people would have zero out of two. Then if we

868
00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:03.159
look at skipping meals or purposely delaying eating, that's an

869
00:48:03.159 --> 00:48:06.400
easy tick. Everyone doing that five to two is doing that.

870
00:48:06.440 --> 00:48:10.440
It's part of the plan. And then are we not

871
00:48:11.039 --> 00:48:15.719
that fourth factor? Are we demonizing forbidding banning certain foods?

872
00:48:16.239 --> 00:48:19.360
That again will depend on the plan. Some will still

873
00:48:19.400 --> 00:48:21.800
limit the foods that you can eat in your eating

874
00:48:21.880 --> 00:48:24.559
window and others won't.

875
00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:28.239
So I think really useful exercise, really useful to run

876
00:48:28.239 --> 00:48:32.639
through those criteria. And again for people to ask themselves yep, yeah.

877
00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:34.039
Ask themselves and be real with themselves.

878
00:48:34.119 --> 00:48:36.000
Yeah, so that's really helpful.

879
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:37.800
So it's not about the program or the diet, it's

880
00:48:37.840 --> 00:48:40.599
about asking yourself what are your intentions here? One hundred

881
00:48:40.639 --> 00:48:43.039
per I'm very conscious of your time, Glenn, but I

882
00:48:43.159 --> 00:48:45.639
just wanted to say that there is so much more

883
00:48:45.679 --> 00:48:48.679
in your in your book and in your approach that

884
00:48:48.760 --> 00:48:52.280
I think is so relevant and helpful and practical.

885
00:48:52.719 --> 00:48:53.119
Thank you.

886
00:48:53.280 --> 00:48:56.119
And I wanted to ask you about the be and

887
00:48:56.239 --> 00:48:57.800
I Lie. We have run out of.

888
00:48:57.800 --> 00:49:00.000
Time, so people will have to listen to your audio

889
00:49:00.360 --> 00:49:04.679
book good to hear about the BMI LIE, because it

890
00:49:04.760 --> 00:49:09.320
is really really eye opening, massively the myth of the

891
00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:11.159
BMI and its relationship to health.

892
00:49:12.079 --> 00:49:13.840
And I also wanted to ask you about tapping.

893
00:49:13.840 --> 00:49:16.960
We've done an episode of the podcast before about EFT tapping,

894
00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:18.760
and I know that you've done a lot of work

895
00:49:18.840 --> 00:49:24.519
in tapping for eating issues and exercise motivation and body image.

896
00:49:25.079 --> 00:49:27.800
So I think that people are going to have to

897
00:49:27.800 --> 00:49:30.840
go and read the book to find out more about that,

898
00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:32.400
or perhaps go to your website.

899
00:49:32.719 --> 00:49:35.079
Yeah, they can go to the website and we have

900
00:49:35.199 --> 00:49:37.840
a like a free tapping session where you can learn

901
00:49:37.880 --> 00:49:42.519
all about it, blogs, research ted talks, and actually give

902
00:49:42.559 --> 00:49:46.079
it a go with Peter Stapleton, who is the probably

903
00:49:46.079 --> 00:49:49.199
the world's leading researcher in it. We also direct people

904
00:49:49.239 --> 00:49:51.400
to that. In the book, we talk about tapping and

905
00:49:51.440 --> 00:49:53.920
how I incorporated it into my practice and some of

906
00:49:53.920 --> 00:49:57.039
the surprising research because it seems a bit weird, but

907
00:49:57.119 --> 00:49:59.119
we talk about, you know, how can this thing that

908
00:49:59.159 --> 00:50:02.159
everyone does diet and exercise weight loss plan actually not

909
00:50:02.199 --> 00:50:06.280
work so well, but something like tapping on acupressure points

910
00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:10.719
on your face can actually be more effective over time.

911
00:50:10.920 --> 00:50:13.519
So yeah, definitely you can head to our website Weightmanagement

912
00:50:13.519 --> 00:50:16.880
Psychology dot com dot au, or we do talk about

913
00:50:16.880 --> 00:50:21.480
it and link you to that free tapping so you

914
00:50:21.480 --> 00:50:23.599
can actually give it a go in the book.

915
00:50:23.840 --> 00:50:26.840
Glenn, this has been amazingly helpful. You're a wealth of information.

916
00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:30.679
I'm sure this has been really helpful and enlightening for

917
00:50:30.760 --> 00:50:31.800
a lot of our listeners.

918
00:50:31.840 --> 00:50:32.639
Thank you so much.

919
00:50:32.840 --> 00:50:35.559
It's been a lovely chat. Cas. I've been a pleasure

920
00:50:35.599 --> 00:50:37.800
to be on your podcast, so thanks so much.

921
00:50:41.360 --> 00:50:42.039
What I love.

922
00:50:41.920 --> 00:50:44.719
About Glenn is that he manages to find a balance

923
00:50:44.760 --> 00:50:48.679
between the insanity of dieting culture, which keeps us trapped

924
00:50:48.719 --> 00:50:52.679
and miserable, and the sometimes really challenging aspiration of complete

925
00:50:52.679 --> 00:50:56.000
body acceptance. I think we can all work to cultivate

926
00:50:56.079 --> 00:50:59.880
a healthier and more accepting and more compassionate relationship with

927
00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:03.480
our own bodies while also wanting to be fit and

928
00:51:03.519 --> 00:51:06.800
strong and flexible, and as Glenn says, it really does

929
00:51:06.840 --> 00:51:10.400
come down to being honest with ourselves about our intentions,

930
00:51:11.000 --> 00:51:14.119
and maybe that kind of self awareness and self kindness

931
00:51:14.239 --> 00:51:17.880
is a goal that we can all work towards. Remember

932
00:51:17.920 --> 00:51:20.480
that you can grab a copy of Thinsanity at Glenn's

933
00:51:20.480 --> 00:51:24.880
website Wait Management Psychology dot com dot au and use

934
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:29.000
the code Cass c ass to get fifteen percent off

935
00:51:29.039 --> 00:51:32.400
your signed copy. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure

936
00:51:32.440 --> 00:51:34.360
to leave us a reading and review. And I also

937
00:51:34.559 --> 00:51:37.480
love reading your messages, so shoot me a dm over

938
00:51:37.519 --> 00:51:41.480
on Instagram. I'm a cast Done underscore XO, or you

939
00:51:41.519 --> 00:51:45.960
can always email me hello Atcastdone dot com. And my

940
00:51:46.039 --> 00:51:48.480
third book, Crappy to Happy Love Who You're With, is

941
00:51:48.519 --> 00:51:51.880
now available for pre order and out very very soon.

942
00:51:52.280 --> 00:51:53.880
The link to that is in my show notes.

943
00:51:53.920 --> 00:51:56.119
If you want to grab yourself an early copy, I

944
00:51:56.159 --> 00:51:58.880
will catch you in the next episode of Crappy to Happy.

945
00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:02.639
Rappy to Happy is presented by Cass Dunn, produced by

946
00:52:02.719 --> 00:52:05.639
Davis Lensky, Audio production by Darcy Thompson.

947
00:52:09.800 --> 00:52:10.280
Listener