Overcoming Thinsanity with Glenn Mackintosh

0:02 A listener production. Hey, you're listening to Crapya Happy. I'm your host, Cas Dunn. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist, a mindfulness meditation teacher, and author. Of the Crappy to Happy books. This is the show where we talk about all the things that might be making you feel crappy and give you the tools and tips to help you to overcome them. In each episode, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring and intelligent people who are experts in their field. And my hope is that you take something away from these conversations that helps you feel a little bit less crappy and more happy. Today, I am thrilled to introduce you to my friend, fellow psychologist and author, Glenn Macintosh. Glenn specializes in the psychology of weight management, body image, movement, and eating, and he is the author of the brand new book Thin Sanity, which is a must read for anyone's on the endless dieting Merry go round. With years of experience helping people to transform their relationships with food and exercise and with their own body, Glenn has so much valuable wisdom to share, So before you go on yet another diet doing the same thing, expecting a different outcome.

1:19 Please make sure you listen to what Glenn has to say. And before I dive in. If you are interested in picking up a copy of Glenn's book Thinsanity, you can order it from his website and use the code CASS to get a handy fifteen percent discount. Now let's hear from Glenn. Glenn so happy to have you on the Crapit a happy podcast, and congratulations on the new book Thinsanity. Thank you so much for having me, and thanks for Yeah, this is me first time author, so WHOA, what a journey. It is such a great book. I know it's been really really well received and I couldn't wait to talk to you some more about it. So first up, it has a great time. Can you please tell us what is thinsanity?

2:04 I'm just laughing, cas because that's what everyone says. They say, cool title, what is insanity? So in insanity is this craziness that so many of us have when we're obsessed with being thinner, no matter for a lot of us, no matter what size and shape we actually are. And Einstein said, you know that quote from Einstein, He said that you know, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. And that's exactly what I see a lot of people doing in their pursuit of weight loss. We know that if we look at the data, about ninety seven percent of people will fail a diet in the long term. So people will lose weight. Most people will lose weight, most people won't lose as much weight as they want to, and then within the next two to five years they regain it all with interest. They do what we call the Nike's Swoosh of weight loss. You goes down, then shoots back up, and then within about five years most people gain about ten to fifteen percent interest. So you're actually kind of making yourself worse. So that's why I think it's kind of like insanity around constantly doing a rebranded version because all diets get the same, similar type of results and expecting that we're going to get different results.

3:25 And so that's pretty standard. Ninety seven percent, that's basically everybody. It's basically everybody. It is, you know. I think about it like if you were to go to your doctor with some type of condition and they were say to you, look, I think I've got a three percent chance of fixing this you probably wouldn't sign up for whatever the treatment was. But the diet industry has hoodwinked us into believing these diets' work. So our the public's understanding of the dieting process is completely different to what we all know in the research. So why is it then that we are also fixated on this elusive goal of losing weight and getting thin.

4:10 We live in this strange society that at the same time has this really gross idealization of people in thin bodies like we That thin ideal makes us believe that being thin is going to make us the most happy comp happy. Yet it's like the key to happiness. And also on the other side of it, we live in this society that really stigmatizes people in larger bodies. So I say, and you might remember this from the book, I say that I think weight is one of the last remaining socially acceptable stigmas. You know, we are in a society where we are saying no to sexism, we are saying no to homophobia, we are saying no to racism more so than ever before. You could argue you doesn't mean these problems don't exist, but there is sort of an official our society have publicly said they shouldn't, whereas I still think a society it's kind of okay to hang it on fat people, and some people even think that it's helpful.

5:14 Yeah, okay, I'm glad you mentioned that because I think that apart from this fixation on the thin ideal and the images that we see of the perfect ideal body that we're supposed to all aspire to, we've also been told for years that there is an obesity epidemic and that we all need to lose weight, we need to exercise more and eat less so that we can be more healthy. And I feel like a lot of people will say, for me, it's not about being thin. I don't necessarily need to be a size eight, but I just need to be healthy. So is there an obesity epidemic? And is that a justification for wanting to diet and lose weight? The obesity epidemic is such an interesting idea because one thing we know, and you know this being a psychologists, you know this from supporting people to changes. I think psychologists know this really really well, is that we're not good at changing when we feel as though we're problems to be fixed or we're somehow defective, you know you, And to look at that as it relates to eating and exercise and weight and body image concerns, you can't hate yourself healthy. If we look at the word obesity for a lot of people, that's you know, a medical technical term, but the way that a lot of us experience it, especially people who live in larger bodies, is as highly stigmatizing.

6:34 It's a personal flaw, right, Yeah. It's a personal floor. There's something wrong with you. Even the word I mean you think about where we are today with the coronavirus. You know, the words epidemic. It's so emotionally charged. And so what these these terms do is that they're overly emotive, they're overly stigmatizing. And what we know is that weight stigma. So I'm not talking What I'm not talking about herecas is not living in a larger body. I'm talking about not bem I I'm talking about feeling as if you're, like you say, there's something wrong with you, feeling as if you're too fat to fit into society. And we know that people who experience weight stigma, they're less likely to go and connect with the health professionals because they're worried that health professionals are going to make them feel even more weight stigma.

7:23 They actually eat more rather than less, and they're less likely to exercise, especially in public, which makes sense because there's a sense of maybe shame or embarrassment around their body. So if you think of those things, less likely to seek health care, more likely to overeat, less likely to exercise. These are not the things that you want if you're someone who's worried about your weight and your health. So I think that the obesity epidemic is probably you know, those terms, I believe do more harm good. And so, Glenn, you talk about the diet industry, we're becoming increasingly aware of what is known as the diet culture.

8:09 I would really like it for people who are unfamiliar with that term. Can you tell us what diet culture is? Yeah? Yeah, Diet culture is a term that we're hearing more and more of, isn't it. And diet culture is this culture where we're so obsessed with starting diet after diet, looking for the next big thing. We spend a lot of time in our social groups talking about the weight we want to lose or the next diet we're going to go on and even sort of moves into you know, the way that we treat other people in society, like who we give jobs to and you know your level of employment status, you know, people who are experiencing weight bias.

8:52 And in the book, I obviously talk about thinsanity and I think that us living in a dieting culture is like us swimming in an ocean of thinsanity, you know, and it is all around it. I think that as people become more aware of diet culture, you start to see it everywhere around you. It's like we are drinking it in, we are swimming in it, we are bathing in it. It's just it's everywhere. And we're learning more and more. We've actually known this from a research perspective for years, but we're learning more and more at how harmful diet culture can actually be. And the thing about diet culture is it's reinforced. Like there are so many commercial reasons for diet culture. The thing about thinsanity is that the diet industry loves it. You know, us constantly talking about trying to change and fix our bodies gets us always looking for that next big thing, and that the false hope that is sold that doesn't match the research at all gets us to buy. And then the fact that these things don't work, that kind of ninety seven percent failure rate almost everyone gets us then trying the next thing, because we don't know that these things are so ineffective, because the diet marketing doesn't tell us that, it tells us the exact opposite. When we fail, we blame ourselves. We feel like we've failed diets rather than the diets have failed us. And so but that sucks

10:23 because every time we go around the loop, our self esteem takes a hit because we're blaming ourselves. But also it leaves us unable to do anything truly different because where we're always looking for that next big thing, it's like, oh, just did maybe this will work for me. Oh, actually, you know what, I didn't invest all of my effort. I'll try another one. But if we look at the research, they all tend to get similar results. So actually just trying a rebranded version of the same thing. That is such a great point. I notice this time of year, at the time of recording, where around that Christmas New Year time, and it seems like my social media feed is just full of diet and exercise and weight loss programs being advertised. But what you say about diet culture, when you really start to pay attention, You're so right. It dominates conversations. It's so normal, especially for a group of women to get together. I don't know if men are the same, but women especially they're always cutting out this and doing that.

11:20 And I've tried that. And the thing that I. Often point out to people is how often do you compliment somebody on their weight loss? And what is the message that that is actually sending? Like it's so normal and so harmless and innocent. We think it's a positive thing, but what is the message that we send every time we compliment somebody on being thinner? It's an interesting one, and it's a very It's something that at least we should take a big pause before, actually, because as psychologists, we know that you know, the message sent and the one received often worlds apart. And I kind of I'm not a big fan of complimenting weight loss for a lot of reasons because even if the if a lot of my clients will say to me, that's kind of like the person saying to me, well you were really fat before. Yeah, you know, But even if the person sort of boosts them up and they feel good about that weight loss compliment, it can lead to further in insanity, you know, that they get more tied to the weight, because that's a big part of this, this th insanity, is being too tied to the number on the scales. So it can almost whether it makes a person feel good or feel bad, can be kind of damaging either way. So I tend to steer clear of it. And then if if someone says to you, hey, you know what, I've lost all of this weight and they're feeling really happy about it, then you can decide maybe that's a good opportunity to go, hey, well, good on you, you know.

12:50 And I find just trying to find different things to compliment people about to remove that message that you're really sending that it is it's promoting the ideal, isn't it You look good because you're thinner. It's just saying thin is good. Anything else is not. Yeah, it's promoting the thin ideal. Cass you bang on. And I think one thing that you're sort of implying there is that the part of this is being so connected to the thin ideal, and part of that is, you know, that the thin ideal is a bit crazy. We know that no one really looks like that apart a very very small amount of people. And if we look at that thin model ideal, it's really the ideal of a pre pubescent girl. So now most people don't really look like that, and even fewer beyond their teenage years, so it's very unrealistic. But I think when you talk about non weight compliments, what comes to me is that it's about, you know, having realistic body ideals and not defining your yourself by society standards, creating your own body standards.

13:55 But it's also about acknowledging that you are so much more than just a body. So I really love that idea of nonweight compliments, like hey, you know what, you're a great person. You always make me feel really comforted and supported. Or if it's about you know, obviously people's the way people affect you, in the way they make you feel is so much more than what they look like. It could be something like, you know what, you just have this buzz about you when you walk into the room. It just kind of lights up and it excites everyone. So there are a million nonweight compliments. So Glenn coming back then to this idea that we're all cottoning on to diet culture and that this thin idea is a bit of a hoax. Then what I hear and I know that you do as well, is that it's not a diet, it's a lifestyle, which is fair enough, right. We want to be healthy, we want to be active, we want to eat well. How do we tell the difference in ourselves if we are dieting or if it is a lifestyle, or if it is just a diet thing packaged up and sold as healthy lifestyle.

15:00 This is a really good question, Cas, because it's kind of like the diet industry. They know what the research says. They know this stuff doesn't work. It's like the best repeat business model you could ever get into because it just doesn't work. So, you know, weight Watchers just they lose someone and they'll just go to Jenny Craik, Jenny Craig, you know, they'll lose someone that doesn't matter. They go to weight Watchers and they just so it's it's the diet industry knows this. But I think now you know, we're hearing about diet culture more and non dieting and the body positive movement and now we the consumers are starting to know that diets don't work. But the diet industry is a crafty beast, so they've created all of these I call them not a diet diets. You know, it's like it's a lifestyle change or no, it's a detox, or it's a it's a health plan, and they're really just kind of diets in disguise. In the b we actually go through And this is something I do with my clients all the time, a little diet audit and can I talk you through the factors?

16:07 Yes, I would love you to. Yes. So it's really really simple, and you can do this right now yourself, just you know, get a bunch of little checkboxes and just just check it off yourself. And this is what I do with clients. We just have this open discussion and say, okay, well what are you doing right now? Because it's about what you're actually doing, you know what the plan you're on is. But then it's also about your intentions around the plan. So you said something really really insightful before Cassy said it's you know, how do you know if you're your dieting and you know a lot of it is actually about checking in with yourself and what are my intentions here? Deep down? What am I truly doing this for? Not what am I saying that I'm doing it for, but what am I actually doing this for. So it does involve a lot of being real with yourself because, like you said, sometimes people say, oh, it's about my health or you know, it's when it's really as.

17:00 Long as my health involves losing a couple of dress sizes and five key lias. Yeah, totally, totally. I'm just laughing to myself because I think I have these conversations by the time. By the time now people come to see me, they've often like seen my YouTube videos or they've read my book or something. They're pretty familiar with the non diet approach, or if they're not, I'll tell them and I say, look, my approach even though everyone who comes to see me wants to lose weight, that actually tends to cause more problems than it cures. So we're gonna we're probably not going to focus on weight loss as much as you normally would, or maybe even not at all. And people often say, oh, yeah, yeah, totally, yep, I get that. Yep. That makes a lot of sense, and that I know that dieting doesn't work. And then often after a few sessions, we have to revisit the same conversation because it's easy to tell ourselves that it's about our health or I just want to have a healthy lifestyle, when it might be more related to our weight or our body image. So these factors, and I think we've had a really discussion here. It's like about just being super real with yourself. And these are this diet Audit is based on the elements of what we know as likely to be harmful in the long term.

18:11 So what is likely to give you that Nike swoosh of weight loss followed by weight regain and also to put you at a greater risk of mental health conditions and especially of course eating disorders. The questions to ask are Number One, am I focusing on my weight when I'm making a food choice? So at that point of decision, when I'm deciding what to eat, is this food going to make me gain weight or lose weight or not gain weight? If the weight's a big factor when we're deciding what to eat, then we've got one out of the four dieting factors. The next one is am I counting calories? Counting and or limiting calories. That can be done in the whole variety of ways. It can be done in calories, or it can be done in like macros or the whole all the versions of that. The next one is number three, is am I skipping meals?

19:09 So that can be like I'm just sort of just missing meals subtly, or am I actually trying to extend the time between my meals, like you know, you see a lot of that, and like the fasting and that type of thing. And then the last one is am I banning myself from certain foods? So am I, you know, demonizing certain foods and telling myself that I have no control over them and not allowing myself to eat them at all. So we typically do, and i'd encourage you, if you're listening, to give this a go and just have a look at where am I am I like a zero or a one or two or three or four. And really the long and short of it is that the more factors you've got, the worse it's likely to be physically and mentally, especially into long term. So we're going to want to try and reduce those dieting factors, so you can get, like you said, the good stuff out of healthy living without some of that kind of poison that the diet culture infuses into the mix.

20:09 And so would you include in there, I think you would like that moralizing of food, even clean eating. I've got to eat clean. Yeah, I think as it comes down to those the intentions, you know, and I think that's you know, clean eating does kind of almost moralize the food. I think, you know, because it's clean, and that sort of implies that the other food is dirty. And I think it's about being real with yourself. Like for example, I don't like the term cheat meal. I don't either, Yeah, but then I do see some people who will say that word, but not with that real venomous intention of I'm doing something really naughty. It's just the words they use. So I think the words are really important, but I think it's important that we just check in with ourselves and find, you know, what is what is the real intention behind them, because even using the terms of healthy food versus unhealthy food, that can be like quite judgy for people, you know, you can that can be a real measuring sick that we use to judge ourselves by and feel like we're the best people in the world if we do it, and like we're terrible people if we don't.

21:16 That's where it goes to it, doesn't it. It's when we start moralizing food. It's it's this moral virtue that almost gets assigned to my food choices, Like I'm a better person, yeah, if I'm eating clean. Yeah. And I think that as as psychologists, we probably know that. I think that most people judge themselves and maybe others too much. But I think if you've if you've got to pick some criteria about like your worth, your value as a person, surely we can pick better criteria than what we put in our mouths, you know, like maybe how we treat people or what comes out of our mouths. You know, there's just so much better criteria that we can judge ourselves on rather than what we put in our mouths. And I think about this.

22:06 I think this is a really weird example, But I think about you know, like say, mother Terreiser, Do we know what mother Terreiser ate? Do we know what hitler ate? Not really, because it wasn't that important exactly. I've seen a great meme floating around I think I shared it a couple of years ago. It was something like mother Teresa never worried about the size of her thighs because she had shit to do. She had more important And that's really I think, that's that's really what we're trying to do, is not. You know, it's normal for us, of course, to an extent, to be conscious of our bodies and what we look like and want to be healthy, and even to want to change them sometimes. But for so many of us, we spend so much time and effort and money and men mental energy trying to change our bodies, especially with ways that don't actually work very well in the long term, that it's just so much wasted time. You could spend your time in so many more better ways than worrying about what your body looks like.

23:24 When you start seeing the stuff about diet culture and the body positive movement and health at every size, and you start going, oh, okay, so this is all a bit of a con and I shouldn't be so worried about what I look like or needing to lose weight. Then you can make yourself feel bad about. Yourself for wanting to lose weight. And it's this finding, this balance, isn't it of how much space it takes up and where? I think that's the work that you do right, and helping people to keep this in perspective somehow. I think so it's about helping people find because we're all different. It's about helping people find the middle ground that works for them. I would absolutely not be from all of the research that I've read and all the work I've done with literally tens of thousands of people, I would not be doing my job with a client or someone who does want of our on my programs or anyone who we serve if we didn't have that discussion.

24:19 It's like, let's look at the thoughts and beliefs that diet culture has interjected. Let's look at how that's affected your choices to do different diet and exercise plans, and what that's actually you know, what results that's gotten you in your life. And then let's look to see if we would we want to try things a different wave. It turns out you're like the ninety seven percent of people that hasn't worked well for But on the other end, there is this, you know, in the health of every size community and the body positive community, almost this narrative that no one should focus on weight at all for any reason, at any time, and that weight is unimportant.

25:06 And I think that that there's some really interesting research to show that approach works with certain people. I think there's a lot more research to come, and there is some research to show that it works better than dieting. So I think that's a great message. But I also think that we run into trouble when we have a one size fits all approach, and we run into trouble when we go into absolutes like yeah. And I think that that do not have any focus on your weight at all might work better if everyone could change their mindset to that perspective. But for a lot of people that's too far, especially at the start, and so we need to find that middle ground where maybe it's not the be all and end all, and maybe you don't you know, don't forget about it completely and try and help pretend that it's completely unimportant, but where it's it occupies one space as one thing that's important in a whole range of things that are going to make you a happy, healthy, successful, well adjusted person who's kind of killing it at life. It's just one I think that I often just say that often for a lot of us, weight gets too big for its boots, and so it's about just putting it in where it can just have a normal, healthy part in your life. So it is interesting cast because I think that I'm a funny one because compared to diet culture, I think a lot of people look at me and like, yeah, Glenn, but shouldn't

26:36 I just want to lose weight? You know. It's like a really counterculture idea, this type of body positive, non diet message. But then I actually, I don't know if you know this. I cop a lot of flak from the pure health at every size community for not going far enough. But my belief is that it is about not being on either extreme, but really looking at it and reflecting, because unless we reflect, we're just probably going to do the same thing over and over again. Like having that real pause point going Okay, what have I been doing and how has that worked? How has my lived experience going through this life showed me that it's worked. And if it hasn't worked, well, maybe I need to do something. It's not a rebranded version of the fifty things that I've done before, but it's actually something that's fundamentally different.

27:25 It is interesting. I think it's so the most important thing I guess for me is coming back to that personal intention. I mean, as many people know, I'm. A psychologist and a very popular online health and fitness program and it's got a meal plan and it's got workouts, and it's also got mindfulness and meditation and positive psychology and stuff from me. And there are people in that group who are very much about balance and they love the access to a recipe library and meals that they can feed their whole family that are healthy and nutritious, and it gives them a shopping list. And there are others who are very much still stuck in that diet mentality. And it's such a personal thing. And you know, it's not for us to say that anybody shouldn't do those programs, but it is about rethinking our own mindset, I think.

28:12 And then when they get in there, I've got to tell you, like, we do a lot of work around that self compassion and what's your intention and focusing, throwing out the scales and all of that kind of mindset change. That's really nice to hear. I think it highlights what we're really both agreeing on that it so much comes down to your personal intentions, what you're really doing it for, and how you're doing the program, whatever you're doing, but also highlights another really important point, and you've sort of implied this two caster, is that you get this whole range of people, say, in that program, you get the whole variety of people who are like really almost doing it in like a kind of a weight neutral way. They're just like the support of the group and the recipes and everything. And then you get some people who are hardcore dieting in the same program. I think it's it's as you know, it's it's your role to help people move probably shift the needle a little bit in a way that is right for them and acknowledging where they're starting from. You know, sometimes I think in this non diet space, we can get a little creachy or Judgey, which is it's a hilarious irony because it's like all about a non judgmental approach. And I would say to you know, sometimes I find that I do it myself, and sometimes I find my clients to as they start to learn more about this and see the benefits, you know, they're like they become aware of all this diet culture around them, and they've just had these such a great experience of non dieting. It's helped them make peace with food and love their bodies and find joy in movement

29:44 and they want to spread it with the world. And then but they're like, you should be doing this, you should be doing this, and it's kind of like, hey, let's chill out on the judgments because and I say to people, if you if you, if you're you know, if you've freed yourself from diet culture and you're still judging people who are immersed in it, try and try to understand where they're coming from. And it's probably not that hard to understand if you try, because you're probably immersed in that diet culture very recently yourself. I don't know about ucas as a health professional, but that's where I started, That's what I was taught. Yeah, I agree, we have to meet people where they're at. And I guess, you know, as part of my role in that community is a big reason why I'm so interested in this topic, and because I see and I hear every day what's going through people's minds. And the more that you come to understand the more. It kind of just breaks your heart that people are just so desperately unhappy and just killing themselves to meet these really unreasonable expectations and perfectionist attitudes and all or nothing and exercising purely for losing weight, which actually brings me to Can we talk about exercise for a minute. Yeah, you said before about loving yourself healthy. A lot of people have a love hate relationship with exercise. They do with the intention of losing weight. They hate it. It's a chore.

31:04 What's your recommended solution to the movement area? Yeah, you're totally right. Cast I mean, it's like it's a no brainer. We all know that moving our bodies is good for us. We just know it's agree No. I think of it like a magic pill for your mind, Like there is nothing that a psychologist can measure that doesn't get better when we move our body. So our attention, our concentration, our mood, our decision making, our memory, and our learning, just everything gets better. It's like a magic pill, and the same for our bodies, like a fountain of youth for our bodies. But we know that after starting a particular exercise plan, over fifty percent and there's lots of different data on this, and that's a generous, generous number, but over fifty percent of people will have stopped that plan within six months. That's kind of like, if it's so good for us, then why do we stop so quickly?

32:00 And I think it comes down to what you're saying is that you know, for so many of us, our automatic implicit association of exercise is it's too hard. It's if I've been battling my weight all my life. It's a it's a punishment that I have to do because I'm too fat, or it's a place where I go to feel really uncomfortable because I don't know how to use all of these equipment, and I don't know how to do this group class and everyone else does. So these are not good associations, and it's of course that's the reason why we don't stick with it. You know, human beings, we're not good at doing things that we don't like doing for extended periods of time. We can do it for short periods of time. And like you said, a lot of us are, you know, exercising to lose weight.

32:48 We know that exercise, regular exercises only really associated with like a small amount of weight loss. So for expecting to lose twenty kilos from an exercise plan, then we're also setting ourselves up for disappointment. So it's like, on one side, I've got this, I don't like doing it. On the other side, I've got this, it's not actually getting me what I want. So it's so easy to see why it becomes the the last thing on your priority list and the first thing to drop off. So so what I recommend and this is like, it's a bit of a weird way of thinking about it, but it's a I like to help people improve their relationship with movement. So rather than trying to give people the mental skills to get up in the morning and like white knuckle their way into an exercise plan they hate, it's about creating an exercise plan that they love or at least moving in that direction. And sometimes my clients look at me like I've got two heads when I say this, But we can do it with most of our people. We really can. And the key is if you think I like to think about you know, if you think about your relationship with exercise being like your relationship with a person, If you think about like your best friend So if you think about your best friend, someone you know, you just most love in the world, and they said to you, Cass, let's catch out for a coffee or a wine in the next couple of weeks, would you have time? Yeah, you would. And then if

34:21 I ask people to think about okay, now, think about your most annoying relative, and if they asked you the same question, said, hey, let's catch up in the you know now case. I'm not saying that you have any annoying relatives, just a hypothetical. Suddenly my diary is very full. Yes, yeah, sorry, Suddenly the diary is very exactly And so why is your best friend your best friend? Your best friend is your best friend because when you're around them, you've experienced positive feelings. So you've been happy, you've been excited, you've been relaxed, you've been able to be yourself. They've supported you, and that has happened so many many times in the past that your memory of that as such that you go to meet your friend and you're expecting to have a good time. So what we need to do is create a similar relationship with movement, where we're going and expecting that we're going to feel comfortable, we're going to feel a reasonable degree of confidence, we're going to feel supported. And often that means not just trying to positively self talk yourself into something you hate. That's like, you know, trying to self talk yourself into seeing your most annoying relative, but actually creating a new style of movement, really listening to yourself what you like, what you don't like, and sometimes it involves doing a bit of exploring, but you end up with having these repeated and often, if you haven't liked the exercise of the past, a surprisingly positive experience of moving your body, because we're designed to

35:53 move our bodies and we feel better when we do. So if we take away, like you said, all those rules about oh I've got to work out for a certain period of time for it to count, or I've got to burn a certain amount of calories and actually start from the different perspective of what do I like, what do I dislike? And often that means I'll do things like start small or go you know, get support, and often it will mean I'll be real It means that you build your fitness in a slow way. But the important thing is that we're really focusing on a long term, lifelong change, So it doesn't matter if it's slower, because this time it's going to stick, So it doesn't matter if it's a little bit slower. And then you can find that movement will become like when you see your best friends, like actually a positive thing that gets you through life. And you'll find that, you know, my clients have these strange experiences that often surprise them where they're like, oh, what a day I need to go and like box this out and they're like what did I just like try to like think of exercise first.

36:58 They become what I call emotional exercises. Love it And I want to ask you too, because I think this leads to or ties very nicely to a question about food too, because we've talked a lot now in the last half hour or so about the fact that diets don't work, and of course the question on everybody's lips is, well, then what do I do instead? Yeah, that's all right, We've gone from GRAPHI It's like, okay, great, now what the hell do I do? Where's the happy so again? And it's interesting because I think sometimes this work can seem a little bit a little bit airy fairy, or you know, a little bit fluffy, But I think an important point here is that this work is based on good science. So there's good science that diets don't work.

37:47 Great science. In fact, it's like the jury's gone out, it's come back in and it's delivered the verdict. The appeals happened the next trial. It's like, we know, but then we do have this emerging body of research urge that is showing us that, you know, if we're talking about having then a positive relationship with food rather than a negative one, that intuitive eaters are people who have a positive relationship with foods. That's something that you know, we've all heard about before intuitive eating. But the way I would describe intuitive eating just in a nutshell is that intuitive eaters are people who eat well without trying.

38:30 So they're the people like and I think these are the people that often annoy my clients. They're like, oh, you know, they're the people who say no to like the second dessert and actually mean it, or the people that kind of are craving a salad, or the people that can have the chocolate and that chocolate doesn't turn into a what the hell I've broken my diet. I need to now eat ten chocolates, and so this is just the you know, you can think of intuitive eating as being having a healthy RelA relationship with food and one of the keys here and this is why it's so important to at least, even if we don't take away that weight focus completely, is to sort of to lift it off a little bit or to make it smaller, is because we actually know that when intuitive eaters are making food choices, they're not focusing on how that food choice affects their weight. They're focusing on other things, a range of other things, but things like do I actually want to eat this food? This is food tasty? Am I going to enjoy this? Things like what is my body telling me? You know, what are my natural senses of start and stop, my hunger and fullness saying to me?

39:45 So they're more likely to pay attention to those internal cues of what the body is saying, rather than external cues of just whether the food is there or whether I've driven past a KFC or those things. They pay more attention to the internal cues what the diet absolutely, what I should or shouldn't eat, or what is healthy or not healthy absolutely, So it's not a rules based thing. They're actually paying attention to their body, that internal wisdom, because you know, you can kind of like you can figure out your calorie intake based on your height and your weight and your age and how much exercise you've done that day and all these things. I tell you, what does that calculation a million times better than any algorithm is your body. Your body has done that math for you. And so if it's it needs nutrition, it's going to give you some hunger signals. When it's had enough, it's going to start to make you feel full, and it will actually tell you what foods make you feel sluggish and bloated and like you you know you need to eat again in half an hour because you've just had a big sugar high low, and what foods make you feel light and fresh and satisfied and energized. So your body is actually doing all of that for you.

41:11 So intuitive eating is about listening to your body. I think something we have to acknowledge there is that, like you said, when we're taking off all of those food rules and starting to listen to our inner wisdom, that takes an incredible amount of trust. So that that is a journey that you know, if you want to become an intuitive eating you do have to make and it is one that you know you will fall down on and it is a learning curve, but I think when you do it, you will you get to this beautiful nirvana of someone who eats well without having to obsess over it and think about it too much. So it is a great place to be and it's well worth building some intuitive eating abilities.

41:55 And I think that that from everything that you're saying, that anybody going down that path needs to take the time to almost heal the relationship with food and learn to trust their body again, because I think that's the problem, isn't it. So many people have stopped trusting themselves. They've stopped trusting their own ability. That completely lost confidence in themselves because they've blamed themselves for every diet so far not working. They're calling themselves a failure, and they've stopped trusting that they can eat the right foods. Yeah, which makes sense because you know you're learning from your experience. I've done this four or five, six, seven times, and I've never yet got the long term results that I want. And rather than saying is there something wrong with what I'm trying to do? It's we just we blame ourselves. And like you said, Cass, is that what are our diets? It's a prescribed way of eating where we're telling ourselves this is what you have to eat, this is what you can't eat, this is how much to eat, this is when to eat, and so where all of those rules are undermining our intuitive wisdom. And so it's about connecting with that, and often I think it is. It is about bravely, you know, learning to trust your body again. And thank goodness, the research does show that we can do this. So there's researching and you know that I don't like these words, but one study was in obese female chronic dieties. So we know

43:29 that women struggle with this stuff more than men do. Unfortunately, men are catching up, but women struggle more. We know that people living in larger bodies struggle more than people in smaller bodies, not to a huge extent, but they do a little bit more. And we know that people who have dieted lots, that they've really become out of touch with those natural body cues a start stop, and our food makes them feel. But that research, you know, which is you know, you couldn't pick a better group of people who shouldn't be able to get back in touch with their bodies, and it shows that they absolutely can. So it is absolutely doable, And I think that's part of that. You know, we need to send as a psychologists, we need to send a confidence message to people. But it's not confidence of try and do the same thing and just give it one more go. It's confidence like that hasn't worked, and it's understandable that you've got this sense of hopelessness in that approach. But let's try something that's truly fundamentally new. So I think if you talk about diets, you know, rigid diets we know are the most harmful. That's when you might have like three or four of those dieting factors that we talked about. Flexible diets those you know, you can kind of follow this plan but have a few cheap days or whatever. You know, however you might word it, they might only have one or two, and they're less harmful. They're more likely to be ineffective rather than harmful. But then intuitive eating is a whole different thing. I think that flexible dieting, rigid dieting, they're like brothers or maybe cousins whereas intuitive eating is

45:01 a whole different animal. It's not even in the same family, it's a different species. So, Glenn, you mentioned about skipping meals and extending the time between meals, and this is a really interesting one because I know people who are fans of five to two, which I would say probably falls into the criteria of another diet or approach to food, kind of a rulesy approach to food. But there are a lot of people who say that they experience a lot of health benefits lower blood pressure. Do you have an answer for that about whether that's a diet or whether that's not a diet. Yeah. So again I think it comes back to your intentions, and you have to be real about what your intentions really are. And those four dieting factors. We can put that to any diet, so we can or any not even a diet, We can put that to any approach that we're following or thinking of following, and we can map it out. So if we look at the first factor is five too making us focus on our weight.

46:04 That will depend on the person. I think for most people it is advertised as a weight loss diet, which is interesting because there is no research that it results in long term weight loss, so we need to be real about that. So if you're doing it for your health, then you may be able to get health benefits. And I'll be real if you cash. My research is mainly in weight because that's what my people are interested in. And you know, whenever a new thing comes along five to low carb keito, whatever it is, I always do the research and see if there's any long term studies, and I'm never I'm these days, I'm really surprised, but I'm always disappointed. And so let's be real with that.

46:44 There is no long term data to show that five two results in long term weight loss and doesn't get that Nike switsh that we all know of. So if you are doing it for weight loss and you have been promoted, it's been promoted that this is the answer to long term weight loss, that is not evidence based. So that's first thing. Are you counting or limiting your calories on like a five to two style plan? Again, it will depend on you. I think that for the average person doing it is probably a yes as well, because you're just you're getting You're using the fasting to reduce your overall calorie intake. Yes, you can eat when you you know as much or depending on what the plan is of and you can eat you know, without restriction in your eating window. But still for a lot of people, not everyone, but for a lot of people that is still a way to limit calories. So again that will depend on the person. So if we're looking at those two factors, I'd say most people would have two out of two so far, but not everyone. Some people would have zero out of two. Then if we look at skipping meals or purposely delaying eating, that's an easy tick. Everyone doing that five to two is doing that.

48:06 It's part of the plan. And then are we not that fourth factor? Are we demonizing forbidding banning certain foods? That again will depend on the plan. Some will still limit the foods that you can eat in your eating window and others won't. So I think really useful exercise, really useful to run through those criteria. And again for people to ask themselves yep, yeah. Ask themselves and be real with themselves. Yeah, so that's really helpful. So it's not about the program or the diet, it's about asking yourself what are your intentions here? One hundred per I'm very conscious of your time, Glenn, but I just wanted to say that there is so much more in your in your book and in your approach that I think is so relevant and helpful and practical.

48:52 Thank you. And I wanted to ask you about the be and I Lie. We have run out of. Time, so people will have to listen to your audio book good to hear about the BMI LIE, because it is really really eye opening, massively the myth of the BMI and its relationship to health. And I also wanted to ask you about tapping. We've done an episode of the podcast before about EFT tapping, and I know that you've done a lot of work in tapping for eating issues and exercise motivation and body image. So I think that people are going to have to go and read the book to find out more about that, or perhaps go to your website.

49:32 Yeah, they can go to the website and we have a like a free tapping session where you can learn all about it, blogs, research ted talks, and actually give it a go with Peter Stapleton, who is the probably the world's leading researcher in it. We also direct people to that. In the book, we talk about tapping and how I incorporated it into my practice and some of the surprising research because it seems a bit weird, but we talk about, you know, how can this thing that everyone does diet and exercise weight loss plan actually not work so well, but something like tapping on acupressure points on your face can actually be more effective over time. So yeah, definitely you can head to our website Weightmanagement Psychology dot com dot au, or we do talk about it and link you to that free tapping so you can actually give it a go in the book.

50:23 Glenn, this has been amazingly helpful. You're a wealth of information. I'm sure this has been really helpful and enlightening for a lot of our listeners. Thank you so much. It's been a lovely chat. Cas. I've been a pleasure to be on your podcast, so thanks so much. What I love. About Glenn is that he manages to find a balance between the insanity of dieting culture, which keeps us trapped and miserable, and the sometimes really challenging aspiration of complete body acceptance. I think we can all work to cultivate a healthier and more accepting and more compassionate relationship with our own bodies while also wanting to be fit and strong and flexible, and as Glenn says, it really does come down to being honest with ourselves about our intentions, and maybe that kind of self awareness and self kindness is a goal that we can all work towards. Remember that you can grab a copy of Thinsanity at Glenn's website Wait Management Psychology dot com dot au and use the code Cass c ass to get fifteen percent off your signed copy. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us a reading and review. And I also love reading your messages, so shoot me a dm over on Instagram. I'm a cast Done underscore XO, or you can always email me hello Atcastdone dot com. And my third book, Crappy to Happy Love Who You're With, is now available for pre order and out very very soon.

51:52 The link to that is in my show notes. If you want to grab yourself an early copy, I will catch you in the next episode of Crappy to Happy. Rappy to Happy is presented by Cass Dunn, produced by Davis Lensky, Audio production by Darcy Thompson. Listener