Feb. 7, 2021

Power Boundaries with Holly Tarry

Power Boundaries with Holly Tarry
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Power Boundaries with Holly Tarry
Power Boundaries with Holly Tarry
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Season 6 Self-Confidence Relationships Personal Growth & Healing

Cass Dunn talks with Holly Tarry, speaker, coach and author of “Power Boundaries”. Holly shares her personal story of digging deeply into the patterns in her life that were keeping her from living an empowered, joyful and meaningful life. She did the hard work of having difficult conversations, executing power boundaries and re-creating her life and relationships including her relationship with herself. Power Boundaries is available on Amazon and I recommend it to anyone looking to take brave action and create radical transformation. (If you have difficulty ordering the book, email hello@hollytarry.com).Connect with Holly:
Instagram: @hollytarryauthorwww.hollytarry.com
Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypodwww.tiktok.com/crappytohappypod
Join the free 7-day Happiness Challenge:www.cassdunn.com/happiness

Connect with Cass:

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Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
www.crappytohappypod.com
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Transcript
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A listener production.

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Hey, you're listening to Crappy to Happy. I'm your host,

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Cas Dunn. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist, a mindfulness

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meditation teacher, and author of the Crappy to Happy books.

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In this show, we talk about all the things that

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might be making you feel crappy and give you the

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tools and tips to help you overcome them. In each episode,

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I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who

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are experts in their field. And my hope is that

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you take something from these conversations that helps you feel

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a little bit less crappy and more happy. And today

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I am super excited to introduce you to Holly Tarry.

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Holly's a speaker, author, and coach who specializes in brave

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action and radical transformations, primarily by executing what she calls

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power boundaries. And I knew as soon as I heard

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Holly speak that I had to get her on the

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show to share her story with you, because so many

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of the people that I talk to have difficulty identifying

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and then holding firm to boundaries, and they ultimately wind

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up feeling frustrated, resentful, and completely burnt out. Holly has

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walked her talk even when it involved having incredibly difficult

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conversations in her life, making really tough decisions so that

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she could completely transform her life and her relationships and

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live with more joy, authenticity, and deep fulfillment. And isn't

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that what we all want? I know you are going

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to be so inspired by her story. So here's Holly, Holly,

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let's just start with the basics. How do you define

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boundaries and in particular what you call power boundaries.

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Boundaries are those warm bubbles of protection that red eat

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out from yourself, So they really are originated within you

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and for you, and from you, and have less to

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do with the other person than most think. And I

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refer to power boundaries as those boundaries that carry a

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big risk if you don't have them. So power boundaries

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really protect you from dangerous or toxic influences that can

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be devastating to your path, to your life, to your energy.

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Well. I love that you refer to boundaries as being

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like a positive thing that emanate from within you, because

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I think so often we think of boundaries as being

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this kind of hardline that we draw that's about keeping

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other people out or keeping things out and keeping things in.

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Whereas you're saying it's more like this really safe space

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that we create for ourselves.

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Yeah, and I think too, we are taught that boundaries

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are cruel or mean, or you know, meant to push

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away and are really, especially as women, taught to serve

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to no end and allow that need to serve to

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come before everything else, including our own paths, our own goals.

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So we have to kind of retrain our brains that

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boundaries are about protecting ourselves and our energy so that

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we can connect in the ways that we want to

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and create the work that we want to, because just

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draining out doesn't work. I think we've all tried the

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white knuckle approach enough to know that without boundaries, you

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eventually reach a point where you're unable to be kind

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and patient and are no longer creating connection by just

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being in someone's space. You talk about that way.

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So I drained and depleted without those boundaries, and many

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of the you know, there's a lot of talk about

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boundaries these days, and oh, we need to set boundaries,

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but I don't think people really we either know how

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to do that or they don't know what their boundaries

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are or what they're supposed to be. I think as

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you say it is a case of really having to

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retrain ourselves. But from your perspective, why is it so

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essential that we learn to do that and that we

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establish those boundaries. Really clearly, the.

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Impact of having mistreatments or resentments, or however the lack

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of boundaries is playing out in your life. It has

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an impact, and it has a real world effect no

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matter what we do. So we might tell ourselves, oh,

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it's not that bad. The most common thing I hear

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when someone just really can't see the need for boundaries.

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It's not that bad, it's okay, I'm all right, it's fine.

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And ignoring that need for some protection, some space between

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yourself and that influence will cause it to manifest somewhere.

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It will be in your body, or in your relationship

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with people that you have power over, like your children

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or your staff. You know, where it's safe to let

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those resentments play out, or where it is buried deep

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down inside of us. It manifests in some ways. So

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we're really kind of kidding ourselves if we're putting up

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with treatments or interactions that trigger us, and it really

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doesn't have to necessarily be the other person's fault. But

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if we're honest about how an influence affects us, how

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we really feel when we're around a person or a behavior.

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We can start to see the line between those feelings

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and the ways that we're impatient with our kids, or

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not listening to our staff, or sick to our stomachs,

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having migraines, you know, all these chronic health problems, and

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those are your signs. Along with just saying in your

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head it's okay, it's fine, it's not that bad. Those

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are signs that you might really want to pay attention

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to how something feels to you.

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It is like a real, almost an inner negotiation going on,

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isn't it. I'm just as you're talking, I'm thinking about

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all of the ways that we justify in our own minds,

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or we make compromises in our own minds because it's

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not that bad, or as you say, it's how we've

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been raised, it's what's expected. We're polite and we're accommodating,

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and we keep the peace. And it is really scary

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for people. You make it really clear quite upfront in

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your book that you're going to have to have tough

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conversations in your life if you want to really be

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honest about your boundaries, like there's this amazing world that

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awaits you, but you've got to have some hard conversations.

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And that is literally the most terrifying thing for people

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to do.

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Isn't it. It's so scary, And there's a reason that

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it's scary. I say, the most difficult people to confront

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are the ones that most need to be confronted. I

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think a lot of people are afraid to draw boundaries

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and kind of enforce their standards because they have a

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feeling that the other person will react very badly, and

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they can see ahead to a point of no return,

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to some sort of turning point where they are learning

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that they their interests will not be advocated for in

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this relationship. This relationship will not tolerate you advocating for

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your interests, and that makes boundaries terrifying. Also, do you

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want to be in that relationship? You know? Don't You

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need to know that if you really assert what you

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need and what you won't take, that it will get heated, dangerous, scary,

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toxic for you. That those inner knowings like oh, I'm

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afraid that if I say no here or if I

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do something that will feel like a rejection to this

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person that it is going to escalate to a point

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that scares me. And that's that's real. That's real for

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a lot of people and a lot of relationships, and

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it's important to know.

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Yeah, it really is. And I think you know we

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at the extreme end, and as you rightly make the

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point as well, the most dangerous time for a woman

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in an abusive relationship is when they leave, So that

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danger is very real for some people. But I think

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that primal fear of disconnection rejection, even in relationships that

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are nowhere near as abusive or toxic as that, it

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still triggers that that, you know, that real, fundamental, that

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primal kind of fear of rejection, abandonment.

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I think of it as friend cliff and enemy canyon,

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where you're marching along and maybe not being heard, maybe

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not being really received. Maybe you're saying or indicating in

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your way that you don't like this, or that you

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don't prefer it, or that you don't want to do it,

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and it's just not being heard, respected, adhered to, and

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you just keep pushing and pushing and pushing, and you

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can feel that you're going to fall off a cliff,

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that this isn't going to even be heard until you

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are in such a big fight that it's clear that

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a boundary has been drawn, and that turning point can

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be so terrifying it can be a reason to withhold

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asserting yourself and protecting your energy. It's important to know

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that you're in a relationship with someone who won't tolerate

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you putting your needs on the table.

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Yeah. Absolutely. And you mentioned before about the way we're

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raised and the way we're conditioned, and particularly women to

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be polite and keep the peace, and you talk about

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micro patterns and macro patents, like all of the ways

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that our relationship and our behaviors in our adult life

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essentially are rooted in earlier experiences. And this is obviously

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something that really fascinates maam a psychologist. But can you

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talk a little bit about that, about the importance of

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identifying those micro versus macro patterns just for our own

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insight and self understanding.

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I guess sure. I think we all wish it was

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not true that the people who raised us, you know,

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don't have these these stories that just play out in

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our heads over and over and over and over and

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over again. But it is true. It's just a fact

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I'm sure you run into that where people just, oh,

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for sure, just I don't want to do the inner

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child stuff. I don't want to do the parent stuff.

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And I feel it. And it's a fact of human

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brains that we develop these stories early on based on,

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you know, these outsized events that happen outsized in our

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own minds. It doesn't even matter how they relate in

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the whole scheme of human trauma. It's a matter of

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as children, when something happens that becomes a story in

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our heads. It plays out over and over again, trying

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trying to be resolved in our lives, and we end

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up attracted to those people as our friends and our

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coworkers and our partners, people who remind us of the

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people who raised us, and then we play out a

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little story within that relationship. So the macro pattern is

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this early childhood story that you're replaying and acting out

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in all of these different relationships across your life. And

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then the micro pattern is the cycle that you're in

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with any one given person. And another common kind of

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clue for me that boundaries are maybe being avoided is

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the notion that there is a good part of the

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relationship that a relationship is good but not all. I mean,

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the relationship is bad but not always bad, and it's

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gotten really better and there is improvement, and it's hard

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but important to discern is there improvement? Is this spiraling

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up to a new place or are you going around

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in a circle and there's just a decent spot on

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the circle. And you know, you have to ask yourself

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those hard questions and determine whether there's real change and

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if everyone in the relationship isn't doing work to change it,

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you're fooling yourself that it's being changed. It's just got

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a it's got a copathetic.

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Spot on the cycle. It's a cycle, that's right, right,

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and that those cycles can just play out for years

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and years, whether it's in a friendship or an intimate

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relationship or in your family, like just around and around

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they go, which I think is also what can be

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so challenging to interrupt that patent because because it's that's

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just the way it is. You know, that's it's just

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the status quo. And I think also to a degree,

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that's what gets in the way of us recognizing how

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toxic some of those patterns are because it's it's we

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could excuse me, we perceive it as normal, Yes.

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And it becomes normal. It becomes the normal that we

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make and choose. And in the book and in the

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work that I talk about with clients, it is about

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accepting and working with that spiral nature. Again. I spend

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zero time resisting the nature of how human brains work.

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That's a losing battle. Even even the unfortunate realities just

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need to be accepted and you know, leveraged in my opinion.

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So the fact that we're going to go around in

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these patterns and cycles and loops is to be leveraged

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in my view. And I call it iterating. And you know,

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we just we're going to try that again, and whether

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we want to or not, here we go. We're going

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around again. And the important part is to become an

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expert of your patterns, to understand the anatomy of them

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and really dissect them and start to look for your

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choice points where could I do something different here that'll

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just kind of like lift us up into a new spot.

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We're still going to go around, but it becomes a

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spiral instead of a circle in my vision of it,

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where you're in a new place and you're still iterating,

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You're still going through. You still have things you need

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to express, you still have things you need to try,

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You still want to try to convince or whatever it is.

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That's you're part of the pattern one more time, and

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you need to do it. And I'm not going to

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try to talk anybody out of that. It's just a

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matter of how can we leverage that reality to become

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experts of our patterns and find into those choice points? Fine,

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where I would normally do this, what if I did

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this instead?

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And one of the things that I teach and have

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for a long time is mindfulness. So I really appreciate

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that that because what you're talking about is slowing down

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enough and we will get to your model in a minute,

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but you know, that's slowing down enough and also having

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enough compassion for yourself and for the other person to

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be able to be curious about that pattern instead of

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I think what we typically do, which is ignore it

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or get defensive about it, or go to blame all

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of those old, really unhelpful defense strategies.

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Yeah, I can't blame solution avoidant. You know, whether you're

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blaming someone else or blaming yourself, you're just you're not

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solving the problem, and you might have to do it.

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You might have to blame, you might have to just

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rail in your journal, But when you're ready to solve

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the problem, the blame has to be set aside and

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moved into some insight. There's no magic in this book

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or anything that I teach. I imagine that the things that

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I say about mindfulness are really similar to the things

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that you say, because it's so foundational, it's so fundamental.

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There's no way to skip it. You have to slow

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down and get in touch with yourself so that you

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can tell how you feel.

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Fascinating that in itself is a challenge for so many people.

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It's sad, really, isn't it that for so many people,

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even just getting in touch with yourself and knowing how

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you feel. I know with the women that I talk to,

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a lot of people aren't even there. You have really

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done the work, You really walk your talk in terms

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of going deep, looking at your patterns and then enforcing changes.

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You've had the hard conversations, and you've spent the time

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in therapy. You've overhauled your relationships, which is why I

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love the book and I was so keen to talk

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to you because you're living what you're teaching. I'm curious

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to know, because I can. I know that a lot

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of people will be like, I don't know if I

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can do this. I'm curious to know. When it came

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to recreating your relationships or getting rid of some relationships,

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was it an all at once thing. Was it a gradual,

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a bit by bit kind of staged process in terms

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of enforcing these boundaries and removing the toxic people or

283
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situations from your life. How did you go about that?

284
00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:49.519
That's a good question. It definitely was not all at

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once and very cyclical, you know, with those iterations, although

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some of the situations, maybe all of them, had big

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flash points, you know. I in one of the stories

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in the book is about me leaving my job as

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a lobbyist and accusing a representative, an elected representative, of

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sexual harassment, and he was expelled. And that was gradual

291
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and a big sudden, you know, moment in the Denver post.

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So it was all of these different things. But I

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had left that relationship, I had left my career, I

294
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had stopped lobbying. I had moved away from what I

295
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thought would be my life's work because I was repulsed

296
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by the relationship. But I did not plan to go

297
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into a public, public battle. I had no reason to

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believe I would win. And after I had left my

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role and left the interactions with this person, I was

300
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still sort of playing nice. He was still calling me

301
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to tell me I was his favorite and just yeah,

302
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and you know, I would answer the phone every fourth

303
00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:08.559
time he called, and just trying not to blow things up,

304
00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:13.519
trying to just kind of like dipno out the door,

305
00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:18.240
have nobody noticed that I was gone, and figure out

306
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how to make money on the other side and close

307
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the door very quietly. And then a colleague of his

308
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and another elected official, went public with her accusation of

309
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him sexually harassing her, and I knew it was true.

310
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I knew it was true from his character and the

311
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things he had said to me, But I also knew

312
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because he had told me part of the story about her,

313
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and I did not feel like I could stand by,

314
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so I called, you know, and got involved and gave

315
00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:53.680
a quote to the Denver Post that day. So there

316
00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:57.960
was this one big, huge boom of a day, December eleventh,

317
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twenty seventeen. Yet the whole thing was over years. I mean,

318
00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:07.200
he was my best political ally for five years, so

319
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I wrote the book on boundaries because they're hard for me.

320
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You know, they're a struggle for me. They's something that

321
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:20.920
I have had to really work to understand and practice

322
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and get good at and see what I can pick

323
00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:29.119
up about a situation that really set me back to

324
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not get in that exact kind of situation again, and

325
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:35.000
forgive myself when I get into one that's really similar,

326
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and just try to cycle through it and pay attention

327
00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:41.839
to how I feel and make moves a little bit

328
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faster and keep moving towards my own path.

329
00:20:54.039 --> 00:20:57.559
You describe Rod at the beginning of the Bulk. We

330
00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:03.319
give it this description of a boundary life, which sounds magical.

331
00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:07.720
It's like this life that shouldn't sound magical, it should

332
00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:11.720
sound like well, of course, but it's where you only

333
00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:14.160
spend your time on the things that you want to

334
00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:15.759
spend time on, all the people that you want to

335
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spend time with, and you have the time to invest

336
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in those relationships because you're not draining away, you're not

337
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hamorrhaging your energy on all of these other obligations, and

338
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you pursue your own goals and nobody else's goals for you.

339
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For me, it was actually the fact that I read

340
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that initially and thought, wow, like it almost seemed unrealistic.

341
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Was the sign for me that this is really important,

342
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Like this is this is a sign that this is

343
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work we all need to be doing.

344
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It really is a series of choices, and any individual

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00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:59.839
person that is in your life draining you is some

346
00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:02.319
that you can choose to have in your life to

347
00:22:02.359 --> 00:22:08.359
whatever extent you want. And so there is this range

348
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of choices for every single relationship that you have. You

349
00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:15.480
only can choose your part of it, of course, but

350
00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:18.720
it's it's a choice. And getting to this place where

351
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I was kind of backed into a corner like I

352
00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:24.160
don't want it to be my choice, and then you

353
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just end up at this spot where you're like, well,

354
00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:29.400
I'm going to allow this harm to keep coming into

355
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my inbox or I'm going to block it. And it's

356
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just this choice. And for me, I've made it a lot.

357
00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:41.599
I've blocked a lot of people, and it's probably been

358
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partially because of my early patterns and attracting really toxic people.

359
00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:53.480
So it's a little bit more clear, you know, once

360
00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:56.440
you start paying attention to how you feel and you

361
00:22:56.559 --> 00:23:01.279
have a pattern of attracting narcissists, all of a sudden,

362
00:23:01.319 --> 00:23:04.000
You're like, Wow, I need to block you, and I

363
00:23:04.039 --> 00:23:06.000
need to block you, and it's for me. It wasn't

364
00:23:06.279 --> 00:23:13.079
a tremendous amount of loss and shame and insecurity. I mean,

365
00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:16.000
what's wrong with me if I have my mother, my father,

366
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and my brother blocked from my phone?

367
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:18.599
Wow?

368
00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:22.839
Yeah, I look back through the evidence and think that

369
00:23:22.839 --> 00:23:25.880
that's a choice I made and I'm better off for it.

370
00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:30.960
So your immediate family all out of your life now,

371
00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:34.599
or have you re established those relationships?

372
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They are all out of my life now. The process

373
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:43.160
of writing the book brought to the surface a very

374
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:48.400
long history of racism in my family. My family is

375
00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:55.920
Southern conservative portrait of Robert E. Lee and are the

376
00:23:55.960 --> 00:24:03.359
centerpiece of our home, Confederate level stuff. And you know,

377
00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:12.000
just this element of patriarchy and white supremacy that as

378
00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:15.359
an adult I understand and don't want to tolerate, and

379
00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:18.240
as a child and all throughout my life also had

380
00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:22.440
an effect on me. You know it also, this hierarchy

381
00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:24.920
and patriarchy and all of these random rules and the

382
00:24:24.920 --> 00:24:30.920
white supremacy, it had a way of oppressing me, my

383
00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:36.440
little baby girl, white girl self because of the extreme

384
00:24:36.519 --> 00:24:40.000
misogyny in my family. So I felt that and it

385
00:24:40.119 --> 00:24:43.359
was not explicit, and no one would tell me that

386
00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:47.079
that was going on. But this place where the big

387
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:51.599
global problems like the patriarchy and white supremacy and our

388
00:24:51.759 --> 00:24:55.519
own personal mistreatments, the place where those things overlap, I think,

389
00:24:55.640 --> 00:24:59.000
is where the power is. I think by addressing and

390
00:24:59.079 --> 00:25:02.599
drawing a line, drawing a boundary with my own family,

391
00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:08.240
I made the world a little bit better in this

392
00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:13.920
bigger white supremacy problem, and I massively affected my own

393
00:25:13.960 --> 00:25:18.599
life because now I can grieve, I can do what

394
00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:22.319
I need to do to feel the loss of not

395
00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:27.319
talking to and hugging my family who I love, and

396
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:32.119
not have new harm continuing to come in. It's not

397
00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:35.799
easy to lose, and like I said, there's no magic

398
00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:38.400
in this book that makes it easy to lose. But

399
00:25:38.440 --> 00:25:45.960
you can heal from the losses and create whatever you

400
00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:49.079
want to create with your life if you can stop

401
00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:51.680
the harm from continuing to come in. It's very hard

402
00:25:51.759 --> 00:25:54.319
to heal, it's hard to forgive, it's hard to build

403
00:25:54.359 --> 00:25:58.519
and create and connect if you are allowing the harm

404
00:25:58.599 --> 00:26:01.440
to still come in. So there's been a lot of

405
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:05.279
blocking in my journey.

406
00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:08.799
Can we talk about your hiro practice. So this is

407
00:26:08.799 --> 00:26:12.640
the model that you have created because you've basically built

408
00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:16.440
this neat framework, which I'm not saying it's easy, but

409
00:26:16.480 --> 00:26:19.839
it's a neat little framework which people can actually walk

410
00:26:19.880 --> 00:26:23.839
step by step through this process of enforcing boundaries. Can

411
00:26:23.880 --> 00:26:25.640
you tell us about the shiro?

412
00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:30.160
Yeah, Hiro is an acronym, and I try to make

413
00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:33.680
a point of saying that you really don't want a

414
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:36.599
hero or a shiro except for yourself. So this is

415
00:26:36.680 --> 00:26:41.559
really about being your own hiro. And the S is

416
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:44.319
for slow down so you can hear your true self.

417
00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:49.319
There's no magic there, just those age old principles are

418
00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:54.400
really becoming mindful. The H is harnessing the wisdom of

419
00:26:54.440 --> 00:26:57.480
your patterns, that truth of human brains that we are

420
00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:01.720
going to repeat patterns. Let's become experts them. The E

421
00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:06.519
is execute boundaries to protect your energy. This is you know,

422
00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:09.119
this step is the business. This is where you're having

423
00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:14.400
those hard conversations. The R is recreate and attract the

424
00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:18.559
relationships you want. So now that you have made some

425
00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:22.839
space and energy by protecting yourself with boundaries, you can

426
00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:24.880
really think about what you want, what you want to

427
00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:29.680
draw in, what relationship you'd like to keep and change,

428
00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:33.160
transform into a new place. And then the O is

429
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:35.880
march on your own path with an open heart. And

430
00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:40.160
that's about really getting in touch with what you need,

431
00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:44.119
want and like it's astonishing and maybe you run into

432
00:27:44.119 --> 00:27:46.279
this when you're talking to people. A lot of people

433
00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:49.359
do not know what they want, don't know what they like,

434
00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:55.720
don't know what they need, and it's because that takes energy.

435
00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:00.359
And if all of your energy is in service to others,

436
00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:02.960
then you'll miss the chance to find out what you

437
00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:06.599
need one like. And I think of those three questions

438
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:10.359
as being about, you know, what do you need is

439
00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:14.000
really zoomed in, like for me, the answer is usually

440
00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:16.440
a walk or a bath or you know, like what

441
00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:20.839
do I need right now? And then what do I want?

442
00:28:20.920 --> 00:28:22.559
Is maybe farther out, what do I want to do

443
00:28:22.599 --> 00:28:26.480
this weekend? Especially if you're used to in your life

444
00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:28.720
letting someone else drive the bus, you know, just somebody

445
00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:33.880
else makes all the decisions. Really taking time to get

446
00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:37.359
in tune with what your perfect weekend would look like.

447
00:28:38.200 --> 00:28:40.680
What food do you like, where do you like to eat,

448
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:42.720
where do you want to go, what do you want

449
00:28:42.759 --> 00:28:45.640
to do? What feels good at the end? Of the day,

450
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:48.400
How will the day have played out that you'll feel

451
00:28:48.519 --> 00:28:53.519
satisfied and happy? And then what do you like? Is

452
00:28:53.599 --> 00:28:58.839
just really fundamental to reconnecting to your preferences. You know,

453
00:28:58.839 --> 00:29:01.559
what colors do you like? What closed do you like?

454
00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:05.960
I have my favorite markers and my favorite textures and

455
00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:10.400
all these little details in our lives that if I know,

456
00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:13.200
I love lavender. You know, if we add them in,

457
00:29:13.880 --> 00:29:15.960
then we'll have a life with more of our preferences

458
00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:19.880
in it. And if we don't know and can't connect

459
00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:23.599
to those fundamental questions and our own path just never

460
00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:24.440
really takes shape.

461
00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:28.279
You make a really great point that so much of

462
00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:31.119
our fear that we talked about at the beginning is

463
00:29:31.160 --> 00:29:34.519
this fear of loss and the fear of disconnection and

464
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:39.160
the fear of destroying all of the things and the

465
00:29:39.200 --> 00:29:41.480
relationships and all of the things that matter to us.

466
00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:44.960
But it's so important to shift our focus to the

467
00:29:45.319 --> 00:29:52.920
possibility of joy and connection and creation and what's available

468
00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:56.480
to us. We just have to get ourselves past that

469
00:29:56.559 --> 00:29:58.720
fear or just I guess maybe just reframe it and

470
00:29:58.759 --> 00:30:00.799
learn to see it in a different why.

471
00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:05.359
Yeah, and accept the losses. You know, when you're talking

472
00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:08.559
at the beginning about the picture of a boundaried life

473
00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:13.160
and how it can feel maybe not quite possible. The

474
00:30:13.559 --> 00:30:17.559
picture of the most joyful, happy, boundaried life that I've

475
00:30:17.640 --> 00:30:22.279
ever experienced also included, you know, a day or two

476
00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:26.119
of crying in the fetal position because I miss my mom.

477
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:30.039
So there really isn't a way that I know of

478
00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:32.640
or have gotten to yet where all of the sadness

479
00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:38.039
and loss goes away. But there is so much that

480
00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:42.079
is nourishing and interesting about the time that I'm not

481
00:30:42.279 --> 00:30:46.279
feeling the loss. There's this place I can get to

482
00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:51.400
with accepting that these are losses I'm going to have

483
00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:54.799
to endure. This is the path I've chosen. And then

484
00:30:54.839 --> 00:30:58.960
I've got all this time and energy to make what

485
00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:01.319
I want to make. Do I want to do, hang

486
00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:04.119
out with who I want to hang out with, follow

487
00:31:04.599 --> 00:31:09.279
these little paths of curiosity that I have, and really

488
00:31:09.319 --> 00:31:10.599
make my life what I wanted to be.

489
00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:14.400
You remind me of the Buddhist I'm you know, with

490
00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:18.920
my mindfulness and practice, and I'm into Buddhist psychology and philosophy,

491
00:31:19.319 --> 00:31:22.519
and it's not about there being no suffering in life.

492
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:24.279
This is what you're speaking to, really it's about what

493
00:31:24.359 --> 00:31:28.079
is worth suffering for. And we spend so much of

494
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:32.720
our time trying to avoid the suffering or just you know,

495
00:31:32.799 --> 00:31:38.079
and often that means denying ourselves. But we're suffering one

496
00:31:38.119 --> 00:31:38.799
way or another.

497
00:31:39.079 --> 00:31:41.440
That's absolutely right, there's no avoiding it.

498
00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:43.920
I wanted to just speak to you too. You talked

499
00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:48.400
about early experiences and early patterns, and you gave a

500
00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:51.319
really good example of how as children, you and I

501
00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:53.880
both parents, so I always like to think about the

502
00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:59.519
next generation. We talk about as children, how you were

503
00:31:59.559 --> 00:32:05.880
taught not directly but indirectly to disconnect from your true preferences.

504
00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:08.000
And you gave the example of, for example, the kids

505
00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:09.640
that you wanted to hang out with, and if they

506
00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:12.279
were family friends or if they were neighbors, then we

507
00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:15.240
had to be nice, no matter how mean or bullying

508
00:32:15.319 --> 00:32:17.400
they were, you know, kill them with kindness, to turn

509
00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:19.119
the other cheek, all of that sort of stuff. But

510
00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:21.079
if there were people who you really did connect with,

511
00:32:22.359 --> 00:32:24.079
if they were from the wrong side of the tracks,

512
00:32:24.200 --> 00:32:28.240
or they you know, they're somehow different, or you know,

513
00:32:28.279 --> 00:32:30.240
then you couldn't be friends with them. And so there's

514
00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:34.160
all of these ways that we have potentially and they're

515
00:32:34.200 --> 00:32:38.119
just little micro examples, microaggressions, but they add up to

516
00:32:38.200 --> 00:32:44.640
this denying or disconnecting from how we really feel and

517
00:32:44.680 --> 00:32:47.960
what we really want. So what are you doing differently

518
00:32:48.079 --> 00:32:53.440
with North, your your little boy so that he honors you, know,

519
00:32:53.480 --> 00:32:55.680
his preferences and his gut feelings.

520
00:32:55.960 --> 00:32:58.400
I love this question. He's made everything in the hole

521
00:32:58.599 --> 00:33:04.519
world to talk about. I very much want to do

522
00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:10.240
well in my parenting and spend a lot of time

523
00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:13.279
thinking about how, first and foremost I can be congruent.

524
00:33:14.839 --> 00:33:21.000
I believe that kids into it and feel so much

525
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:23.799
more than we think they do. I remember as a

526
00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:28.440
child tapping into things and feeling them even though no

527
00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:31.920
one really explained what was going on, and how confusing

528
00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:36.240
that was. And I really make an effort with North

529
00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:40.960
to call out what is happening. So, for instance, when

530
00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:43.920
I'm having those really big lost days where I'm feeling

531
00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:47.640
the sadness and the grief of being disconnected to my

532
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:51.839
family of origin, he knows that I'm having a hard time.

533
00:33:52.400 --> 00:33:55.519
I keep my real like boohooing to myself. I do that,

534
00:33:55.559 --> 00:33:59.400
I do that privately, but he will see, you know

535
00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:02.279
that I'm a little weepy, and I'll tell him the

536
00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:06.519
truth of what's going on and how I am feeling,

537
00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:13.400
and when I'm wrong, I apologize. And when he tells

538
00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:16.320
me he likes something, I believe him. And when he

539
00:34:16.360 --> 00:34:18.840
tells me he needs something or wants something, I believe him.

540
00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:21.519
He doesn't always get it, but I don't tell him no,

541
00:34:21.639 --> 00:34:24.000
you don't want that. I think we do that to

542
00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:26.440
kids a lot. You just don't know what you want.

543
00:34:26.519 --> 00:34:28.440
You just don't know what you like to eat. You

544
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:32.679
just don't know what your preferences are. And I know better,

545
00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:36.559
and I try really hard not to do that to him.

546
00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:39.840
I try to respect him as a fully formed, whole

547
00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:44.119
human being, you know, horrible decision making and all the

548
00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:47.079
other things that come with being a normal kid, but

549
00:34:47.880 --> 00:34:51.480
fully able to connect with himself and know what he

550
00:34:51.559 --> 00:34:53.559
wants and who he is and what he likes. So

551
00:34:54.119 --> 00:34:59.159
listening to him and being congruent, you know, and following

552
00:34:59.239 --> 00:35:02.480
up when I'm not I am not perfect, and when

553
00:35:02.599 --> 00:35:07.960
I project, which is inevitable. I sometimes I'll tell him

554
00:35:07.960 --> 00:35:10.159
that I'm protecting him from something, and then I'll go

555
00:35:10.199 --> 00:35:12.000
back and be like, no, no, no, I'm actually protecting me.

556
00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:15.239
It triggers me. I'm protecting me here from that. We

557
00:35:15.320 --> 00:35:17.559
have to get that influence out of here because I

558
00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:20.480
need it to be out of here. So I try

559
00:35:20.519 --> 00:35:22.760
to clean it up. You know, if I make a mistake,

560
00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:26.400
I go back and clean it up. So apologizing, congruence,

561
00:35:26.519 --> 00:35:31.199
and listening are my toolboxes. Are my tools in my

562
00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:32.280
parenting toolbox.

563
00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:36.599
Yeah, and you know when we talk about boundaries and parenting,

564
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:39.559
I often think about too, especially for the mothers who

565
00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:43.840
sacrifice everything for their kids with all of the best

566
00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:46.519
of intentions, what are we role modeling in terms of

567
00:35:47.800 --> 00:35:52.679
self care and what they should grow up to aspire

568
00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:55.480
to and the importance of boundaries. So how do you

569
00:35:56.119 --> 00:35:58.440
model good boundaries for him?

570
00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:02.199
That is the most important thing to do for boundaries

571
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:05.280
with kids, in my opinion, is to model it. And

572
00:36:05.360 --> 00:36:10.039
I think the way that you model is to be

573
00:36:10.039 --> 00:36:12.800
be someone that it is safe for them to say

574
00:36:12.880 --> 00:36:13.159
no to.

575
00:36:13.480 --> 00:36:15.280
I love that, Yeah, you know.

576
00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:22.000
Managing my own feelings of rejection, Yes, being having a

577
00:36:22.039 --> 00:36:26.400
boundary placed towards you or that you are affected by

578
00:36:26.480 --> 00:36:29.880
from someone else does feel like a rejection and it

579
00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:34.159
can hurt and down to its core it kind of

580
00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:38.400
is a rejection, Like I don't I want my space

581
00:36:38.519 --> 00:36:41.719
or my time to not exactly include you or you

582
00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:46.559
doing that right now. So it is a rejection to

583
00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:53.079
some extent, and we can practice that being allowable, and

584
00:36:53.400 --> 00:36:58.000
we can practice paying attention to how that makes us

585
00:36:58.039 --> 00:37:03.400
feel and managing it, owning it, naming it, feeling it,

586
00:37:04.599 --> 00:37:07.639
and maintaining that it is safe for the other person.

587
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:12.159
So I respect my kids privacy. He knows he can

588
00:37:12.159 --> 00:37:15.119
tell me no. I don't ask him permission every single

589
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:18.880
time I touch him, but I can tell when maybe

590
00:37:18.920 --> 00:37:21.800
he doesn't want me to run my hands through his hair,

591
00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:25.599
or you know, maybe he doesn't want me to, you know,

592
00:37:25.960 --> 00:37:28.000
lick my thumb and get the chocolate off his face

593
00:37:28.119 --> 00:37:31.599
or whatever, and I try to catch it. I try

594
00:37:31.639 --> 00:37:34.400
to ask him, you know, do you mind it? Can

595
00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:36.719
I run this brush through your hair? And when he

596
00:37:36.760 --> 00:37:41.159
says no, I back off. And obviously he can't always

597
00:37:41.159 --> 00:37:44.440
say no to everything, and he has rules and limits,

598
00:37:44.519 --> 00:37:48.239
and I'm always kind of holding the container of what

599
00:37:48.559 --> 00:37:51.360
he can do and not do so that he is

600
00:37:51.519 --> 00:37:56.000
safe and protected and healthy. But I try to give

601
00:37:56.079 --> 00:38:00.199
him as much control as he can. And when he

602
00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:04.880
doesn't want my time and attention, I go off and

603
00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:07.280
lick my wounds instead of making it his problem.

604
00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:12.039
Yeah, and one last thing I wanted to talk about,

605
00:38:12.119 --> 00:38:16.000
because you're very open in the book about confronting challenges

606
00:38:16.039 --> 00:38:19.960
in your marriage too, And we've talked about, or you

607
00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:23.880
talked about the patriarchy and the systems and the hierarchy

608
00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:26.119
and how that was being reflected in your marriage. I'm

609
00:38:26.119 --> 00:38:27.920
sure not just your marriage. I'm sure a lot of

610
00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:31.719
marriages with that very traditional man at the top of

611
00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:36.679
the pyramid, whether that's conscious or not. That kind of

612
00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:40.880
internalized misogyny is what you called it. But we often

613
00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:43.920
talk about the patriarchy and it's damaging effects on women,

614
00:38:43.960 --> 00:38:47.800
but it obviously is very damaging to men too, and

615
00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:50.639
I have men listening to this podcast as well. And

616
00:38:50.679 --> 00:38:54.000
I'm while you were the one leading the charge to

617
00:38:54.199 --> 00:38:57.159
establish a more equal partnership in your marriage, and that

618
00:38:57.280 --> 00:38:59.079
involved you know, you've made some tough calls and you

619
00:38:59.119 --> 00:39:03.960
actually moved down and really re established the boundaries and

620
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:07.280
the ground rules in that relationship. I'm curious to know

621
00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:12.639
whether Jason, now your husband, is also able to acknowledge

622
00:39:12.639 --> 00:39:17.800
how much he was also damaged by those patterns and

623
00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:23.920
how much he is also benefited by a new approach,

624
00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:26.559
a more equal and balanced partnership.

625
00:39:27.639 --> 00:39:33.559
Absolutely, he has maybe done the lie and share of

626
00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:37.840
the work in our relationship. I was absolutely the initiator

627
00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:41.840
of drawing the line, and that was very difficult and scary.

628
00:39:42.800 --> 00:39:45.599
But the amount of work that he has had to

629
00:39:45.639 --> 00:39:49.480
do to overcome the notion that he is responsible for

630
00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:54.320
his emotions, the way that we train boys and men

631
00:39:54.519 --> 00:39:57.239
that they are not responsible for their emotions. If they

632
00:39:57.239 --> 00:40:01.079
cannot feel them or express them except for anger, has

633
00:40:01.880 --> 00:40:07.800
enormous long term damaging effects. They're isolated. I think that

634
00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:11.719
Jason would say he had a real sense of feeling

635
00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:16.960
so desperate to protect his position, his power, his control,

636
00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:23.840
his ego, that he was unable to be vulnerable with anyone.

637
00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:27.559
And we're at a place in our relationship he's I mean,

638
00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:32.920
and again, no magic, counseling, lots and lots and lots

639
00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:38.039
and lots, lots and lots of therapy and childhood stuff

640
00:40:38.079 --> 00:40:39.760
and all the things that we wish we didn't have

641
00:40:39.800 --> 00:40:43.920
to do. He's done it all. And we are still

642
00:40:44.119 --> 00:40:48.800
having moments where it feels like misogyny is in the

643
00:40:48.880 --> 00:40:53.719
room and we're debating or arguing something that seems like

644
00:40:53.800 --> 00:40:58.639
nonsense to me, and he has to do the work

645
00:40:58.760 --> 00:41:01.320
of seeing it, and I have to do the work

646
00:41:01.480 --> 00:41:05.519
of walking away until and letting him go through his

647
00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:11.599
process of seeing it. And he's very skilled at seeing

648
00:41:11.679 --> 00:41:16.599
it now and preventing it and apologizing when he can't

649
00:41:16.719 --> 00:41:20.440
preventing it. And my favorite thing is that he apologizes

650
00:41:20.599 --> 00:41:26.719
with this specificity. He tells me exactly what happened. He

651
00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:31.840
tells me, you know, he admits and validates that was misogyny.

652
00:41:31.840 --> 00:41:34.679
There was misogyny in the room. I figured out, you know,

653
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:38.480
with about twenty four hours to mull it over. He

654
00:41:38.519 --> 00:41:41.199
can kind of see, that's what happened, and that's when

655
00:41:41.199 --> 00:41:43.199
it happened, and that's where it happened, and that's how

656
00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:47.519
I felt. The trigger was this. Wow, Yes, it's amazing.

657
00:41:47.559 --> 00:41:54.440
I mean, his apologies are able to just neutralize the

658
00:41:54.519 --> 00:42:00.199
conflict so quickly that the we still have blips do,

659
00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:03.559
but the amount of time and energy that they stuck

660
00:42:03.679 --> 00:42:06.760
up in our lives is minuscule compared to what it

661
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:07.239
used to be.

662
00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:11.639
So you would say it has definitely been worth doing

663
00:42:11.679 --> 00:42:13.840
the hard yards. It has.

664
00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:17.400
It's weird to look back at, you know, this past

665
00:42:17.480 --> 00:42:19.199
Christmas and say I loved it. It was such a

666
00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:23.159
great holiday. I had so much fun, and I'm disconnected

667
00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:28.440
with my family, and there's this pandemic and it doesn't

668
00:42:28.880 --> 00:42:31.559
seem like if you wrote things out that they're going

669
00:42:31.599 --> 00:42:36.679
my way. And yet I am experiencing the joy of

670
00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:39.079
doing what I want to do, you know, publishing a

671
00:42:39.119 --> 00:42:41.840
book and making this online boot camp and talking about

672
00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:45.159
the patriarchy which completely lights me up, and living in

673
00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:49.400
my remodeled basement, my own apartment in my home where

674
00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:54.760
I have my own space. I'm I'm really psyched.

675
00:42:54.840 --> 00:42:57.519
Well deserved because you have done the hot yachds and

676
00:42:57.519 --> 00:43:00.639
that's really clear from the book. And thank you for

677
00:43:00.679 --> 00:43:05.800
the book because it is very honest. And I think

678
00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:08.960
that you know they's seen those shared stories and that

679
00:43:09.079 --> 00:43:12.199
willingness to open up, that we find that connection and

680
00:43:12.239 --> 00:43:15.679
we find those points of commonality. We can see ourselves

681
00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:18.599
in your story, and I really appreciate it.

682
00:43:18.760 --> 00:43:22.320
Well, thank you for receiving it. It means a light

683
00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:25.159
to have gone out on a lem that far. It

684
00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:31.239
was very scary, and when someone like you really sees

685
00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:34.719
that that was hired, it kind of makes it all

686
00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:35.119
worth it.

687
00:43:35.679 --> 00:43:38.880
Holly, thank you for your time. I so appreciate you

688
00:43:38.920 --> 00:43:40.840
giving us your time for our listeners over here in

689
00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:44.079
Australia and I will be sure to let them know

690
00:43:44.119 --> 00:43:45.719
where they can get the book.

691
00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:48.159
Fabulous, thank you so much for having me Cass.

692
00:43:51.679 --> 00:43:55.159
Holly's book Power Boundaries is available to order on Amazon

693
00:43:55.199 --> 00:43:58.199
Australia or you can connect with her on Instagram at

694
00:43:58.239 --> 00:44:02.039
Holly Tarry Author or her website Holly Tarry dot com.

695
00:44:02.039 --> 00:44:05.400
That's h O double l y t A double ry.

696
00:44:06.079 --> 00:44:08.719
Of course, you can always connect with me too on Instagram,

697
00:44:08.760 --> 00:44:12.159
I'm at cast Done underscore XO or my website cast

698
00:44:12.199 --> 00:44:14.880
done dot com. And if you enjoyed this episode, be

699
00:44:14.920 --> 00:44:16.679
sure to leave us a rating and review. And I

700
00:44:16.719 --> 00:44:19.039
also love reading your messages, so shoot me a dm

701
00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:22.920
over on Instagram or email me hello at castone dot com.

702
00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:26.039
Don't forget my third book, Crappy to Happy Love Who

703
00:44:26.079 --> 00:44:28.719
You're With, is out in a matter of weeks and

704
00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:31.199
the link to order is in the show notes. I

705
00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:33.960
will catch you on the next episode of Crappy to Happy.

706
00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:37.559
Crappy to Happy is presented by cast Don, produced by

707
00:44:37.599 --> 00:44:40.440
David Vilenski, audio production by Darcy Thompson.

708
00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:45.599
Listener