Power Boundaries with Holly Tarry

0:02 A listener production. Hey, you're listening to Crappy to Happy. I'm your host, Cas Dunn. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist, a mindfulness meditation teacher, and author of the Crappy to Happy books. In this show, we talk about all the things that might be making you feel crappy and give you the tools and tips to help you overcome them. In each episode, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their field. And my hope is that you take something from these conversations that helps you feel a little bit less crappy and more happy. And today I am super excited to introduce you to Holly Tarry. Holly's a speaker, author, and coach who specializes in brave action and radical transformations, primarily by executing what she calls power boundaries. And I knew as soon as I heard Holly speak that I had to get her on the show to share her story with you, because so many of the people that I talk to have difficulty identifying and then holding firm to boundaries, and they ultimately wind up feeling frustrated, resentful, and completely burnt out. Holly has walked her talk even when it involved having incredibly difficult conversations in her life, making really tough decisions so that she could completely transform her life and her relationships and live with more joy, authenticity, and deep fulfillment. And isn't that what we all want? I know you are going to be so inspired by her story. So here's Holly, Holly,

1:36 let's just start with the basics. How do you define boundaries and in particular what you call power boundaries. Boundaries are those warm bubbles of protection that red eat out from yourself, So they really are originated within you and for you, and from you, and have less to do with the other person than most think. And I refer to power boundaries as those boundaries that carry a big risk if you don't have them. So power boundaries really protect you from dangerous or toxic influences that can be devastating to your path, to your life, to your energy.

2:18 Well. I love that you refer to boundaries as being like a positive thing that emanate from within you, because I think so often we think of boundaries as being this kind of hardline that we draw that's about keeping other people out or keeping things out and keeping things in. Whereas you're saying it's more like this really safe space that we create for ourselves. Yeah, and I think too, we are taught that boundaries are cruel or mean, or you know, meant to push away and are really, especially as women, taught to serve to no end and allow that need to serve to come before everything else, including our own paths, our own goals.

3:12 So we have to kind of retrain our brains that boundaries are about protecting ourselves and our energy so that we can connect in the ways that we want to and create the work that we want to, because just draining out doesn't work. I think we've all tried the white knuckle approach enough to know that without boundaries, you eventually reach a point where you're unable to be kind and patient and are no longer creating connection by just being in someone's space. You talk about that way. So I drained and depleted without those boundaries, and many of the you know, there's a lot of talk about boundaries these days, and oh, we need to set boundaries, but I don't think people really we either know how to do that or they don't know what their boundaries are or what they're supposed to be. I think as you say it is a case of really having to retrain ourselves. But from your perspective, why is it so essential that we learn to do that and that we establish those boundaries. Really clearly, the.

4:21 Impact of having mistreatments or resentments, or however the lack of boundaries is playing out in your life. It has an impact, and it has a real world effect no matter what we do. So we might tell ourselves, oh, it's not that bad. The most common thing I hear when someone just really can't see the need for boundaries. It's not that bad, it's okay, I'm all right, it's fine. And ignoring that need for some protection, some space between yourself and that influence will cause it to manifest somewhere. It will be in your body, or in your relationship with people that you have power over, like your children or your staff. You know, where it's safe to let those resentments play out, or where it is buried deep down inside of us. It manifests in some ways. So we're really kind of kidding ourselves if we're putting up with treatments or interactions that trigger us, and it really doesn't have to necessarily be the other person's fault. But if we're honest about how an influence affects us, how we really feel when we're around a person or a behavior.

5:39 We can start to see the line between those feelings and the ways that we're impatient with our kids, or not listening to our staff, or sick to our stomachs, having migraines, you know, all these chronic health problems, and those are your signs. Along with just saying in your head it's okay, it's fine, it's not that bad. Those are signs that you might really want to pay attention to how something feels to you. It is like a real, almost an inner negotiation going on, isn't it. I'm just as you're talking, I'm thinking about all of the ways that we justify in our own minds, or we make compromises in our own minds because it's not that bad, or as you say, it's how we've been raised, it's what's expected. We're polite and we're accommodating, and we keep the peace. And it is really scary for people. You make it really clear quite upfront in your book that you're going to have to have tough conversations in your life if you want to really be honest about your boundaries, like there's this amazing world that awaits you, but you've got to have some hard conversations.

6:51 And that is literally the most terrifying thing for people to do. Isn't it. It's so scary, And there's a reason that it's scary. I say, the most difficult people to confront are the ones that most need to be confronted. I think a lot of people are afraid to draw boundaries and kind of enforce their standards because they have a feeling that the other person will react very badly, and they can see ahead to a point of no return, to some sort of turning point where they are learning that they their interests will not be advocated for in this relationship. This relationship will not tolerate you advocating for your interests, and that makes boundaries terrifying. Also, do you want to be in that relationship? You know? Don't You need to know that if you really assert what you need and what you won't take, that it will get heated, dangerous, scary, toxic for you. That those inner knowings like oh, I'm afraid that if I say no here or if I do something that will feel like a rejection to this person that it is going to escalate to a point that scares me. And that's that's real. That's real for a lot of people and a lot of relationships, and it's important to know.

8:18 Yeah, it really is. And I think you know we at the extreme end, and as you rightly make the point as well, the most dangerous time for a woman in an abusive relationship is when they leave, So that danger is very real for some people. But I think that primal fear of disconnection rejection, even in relationships that are nowhere near as abusive or toxic as that, it still triggers that that, you know, that real, fundamental, that primal kind of fear of rejection, abandonment. I think of it as friend cliff and enemy canyon, where you're marching along and maybe not being heard, maybe not being really received. Maybe you're saying or indicating in your way that you don't like this, or that you don't prefer it, or that you don't want to do it, and it's just not being heard, respected, adhered to, and you just keep pushing and pushing and pushing, and you can feel that you're going to fall off a cliff, that this isn't going to even be heard until you are in such a big fight that it's clear that a boundary has been drawn, and that turning point can be so terrifying it can be a reason to withhold asserting yourself and protecting your energy. It's important to know that you're in a relationship with someone who won't tolerate you putting your needs on the table.

9:43 Yeah. Absolutely. And you mentioned before about the way we're raised and the way we're conditioned, and particularly women to be polite and keep the peace, and you talk about micro patterns and macro patents, like all of the ways that our relationship and our behaviors in our adult life essentially are rooted in earlier experiences. And this is obviously something that really fascinates maam a psychologist. But can you talk a little bit about that, about the importance of identifying those micro versus macro patterns just for our own insight and self understanding. I guess sure. I think we all wish it was not true that the people who raised us, you know, don't have these these stories that just play out in our heads over and over and over and over and over again. But it is true. It's just a fact I'm sure you run into that where people just, oh, for sure, just I don't want to do the inner child stuff. I don't want to do the parent stuff.

10:43 And I feel it. And it's a fact of human brains that we develop these stories early on based on, you know, these outsized events that happen outsized in our own minds. It doesn't even matter how they relate in the whole scheme of human trauma. It's a matter of as children, when something happens that becomes a story in our heads. It plays out over and over again, trying trying to be resolved in our lives, and we end up attracted to those people as our friends and our coworkers and our partners, people who remind us of the people who raised us, and then we play out a little story within that relationship. So the macro pattern is this early childhood story that you're replaying and acting out in all of these different relationships across your life. And then the micro pattern is the cycle that you're in with any one given person. And another common kind of clue for me that boundaries are maybe being avoided is the notion that there is a good part of the relationship that a relationship is good but not all. I mean, the relationship is bad but not always bad, and it's gotten really better and there is improvement, and it's hard but important to discern is there improvement? Is this spiraling

12:16 up to a new place or are you going around in a circle and there's just a decent spot on the circle. And you know, you have to ask yourself those hard questions and determine whether there's real change and if everyone in the relationship isn't doing work to change it, you're fooling yourself that it's being changed. It's just got a it's got a copathetic. Spot on the cycle. It's a cycle, that's right, right, and that those cycles can just play out for years and years, whether it's in a friendship or an intimate relationship or in your family, like just around and around they go, which I think is also what can be so challenging to interrupt that patent because because it's that's just the way it is. You know, that's it's just the status quo. And I think also to a degree, that's what gets in the way of us recognizing how toxic some of those patterns are because it's it's we could excuse me, we perceive it as normal, Yes.

13:19 And it becomes normal. It becomes the normal that we make and choose. And in the book and in the work that I talk about with clients, it is about accepting and working with that spiral nature. Again. I spend zero time resisting the nature of how human brains work. That's a losing battle. Even even the unfortunate realities just need to be accepted and you know, leveraged in my opinion. So the fact that we're going to go around in these patterns and cycles and loops is to be leveraged in my view. And I call it iterating. And you know, we just we're going to try that again, and whether we want to or not, here we go. We're going around again. And the important part is to become an expert of your patterns, to understand the anatomy of them and really dissect them and start to look for your choice points where could I do something different here that'll just kind of like lift us up into a new spot.

14:27 We're still going to go around, but it becomes a spiral instead of a circle in my vision of it, where you're in a new place and you're still iterating, You're still going through. You still have things you need to express, you still have things you need to try, You still want to try to convince or whatever it is. That's you're part of the pattern one more time, and you need to do it. And I'm not going to try to talk anybody out of that. It's just a matter of how can we leverage that reality to become experts of our patterns and find into those choice points? Fine, where I would normally do this, what if I did this instead?

15:07 And one of the things that I teach and have for a long time is mindfulness. So I really appreciate that that because what you're talking about is slowing down enough and we will get to your model in a minute, but you know, that's slowing down enough and also having enough compassion for yourself and for the other person to be able to be curious about that pattern instead of I think what we typically do, which is ignore it or get defensive about it, or go to blame all of those old, really unhelpful defense strategies. Yeah, I can't blame solution avoidant. You know, whether you're blaming someone else or blaming yourself, you're just you're not solving the problem, and you might have to do it.

15:54 You might have to blame, you might have to just rail in your journal, But when you're ready to solve the problem, the blame has to be set aside and moved into some insight. There's no magic in this book or anything that I teach. I imagine that the things that I say about mindfulness are really similar to the things that you say, because it's so foundational, it's so fundamental. There's no way to skip it. You have to slow down and get in touch with yourself so that you can tell how you feel. Fascinating that in itself is a challenge for so many people.

16:37 It's sad, really, isn't it that for so many people, even just getting in touch with yourself and knowing how you feel. I know with the women that I talk to, a lot of people aren't even there. You have really done the work, You really walk your talk in terms of going deep, looking at your patterns and then enforcing changes. You've had the hard conversations, and you've spent the time in therapy. You've overhauled your relationships, which is why I love the book and I was so keen to talk to you because you're living what you're teaching. I'm curious to know, because I can. I know that a lot of people will be like, I don't know if I can do this. I'm curious to know. When it came to recreating your relationships or getting rid of some relationships, was it an all at once thing. Was it a gradual, a bit by bit kind of staged process in terms of enforcing these boundaries and removing the toxic people or situations from your life. How did you go about that?

17:45 That's a good question. It definitely was not all at once and very cyclical, you know, with those iterations, although some of the situations, maybe all of them, had big flash points, you know. I in one of the stories in the book is about me leaving my job as a lobbyist and accusing a representative, an elected representative, of sexual harassment, and he was expelled. And that was gradual and a big sudden, you know, moment in the Denver post. So it was all of these different things. But I had left that relationship, I had left my career, I had stopped lobbying. I had moved away from what I thought would be my life's work because I was repulsed by the relationship. But I did not plan to go into a public, public battle. I had no reason to believe I would win. And after I had left my role and left the interactions with this person, I was still sort of playing nice. He was still calling me to tell me I was his favorite and just yeah, and you know, I would answer the phone every fourth time he called, and just trying not to blow things up, trying to just kind of like dipno out the door, have nobody noticed that I was gone, and figure out

19:18 how to make money on the other side and close the door very quietly. And then a colleague of his and another elected official, went public with her accusation of him sexually harassing her, and I knew it was true. I knew it was true from his character and the things he had said to me, But I also knew because he had told me part of the story about her, and I did not feel like I could stand by, so I called, you know, and got involved and gave a quote to the Denver Post that day. So there was this one big, huge boom of a day, December eleventh, twenty seventeen. Yet the whole thing was over years. I mean, he was my best political ally for five years, so I wrote the book on boundaries because they're hard for me.

20:11 You know, they're a struggle for me. They's something that I have had to really work to understand and practice and get good at and see what I can pick up about a situation that really set me back to not get in that exact kind of situation again, and forgive myself when I get into one that's really similar, and just try to cycle through it and pay attention to how I feel and make moves a little bit faster and keep moving towards my own path.

20:54 You describe Rod at the beginning of the Bulk. We give it this description of a boundary life, which sounds magical. It's like this life that shouldn't sound magical, it should sound like well, of course, but it's where you only spend your time on the things that you want to spend time on, all the people that you want to spend time with, and you have the time to invest in those relationships because you're not draining away, you're not hamorrhaging your energy on all of these other obligations, and you pursue your own goals and nobody else's goals for you. For me, it was actually the fact that I read that initially and thought, wow, like it almost seemed unrealistic.

21:39 Was the sign for me that this is really important, Like this is this is a sign that this is work we all need to be doing. It really is a series of choices, and any individual person that is in your life draining you is some that you can choose to have in your life to whatever extent you want. And so there is this range of choices for every single relationship that you have. You only can choose your part of it, of course, but it's it's a choice. And getting to this place where I was kind of backed into a corner like I don't want it to be my choice, and then you just end up at this spot where you're like, well, I'm going to allow this harm to keep coming into my inbox or I'm going to block it. And it's just this choice. And for me, I've made it a lot.

22:38 I've blocked a lot of people, and it's probably been partially because of my early patterns and attracting really toxic people. So it's a little bit more clear, you know, once you start paying attention to how you feel and you have a pattern of attracting narcissists, all of a sudden, You're like, Wow, I need to block you, and I need to block you, and it's for me. It wasn't a tremendous amount of loss and shame and insecurity. I mean, what's wrong with me if I have my mother, my father, and my brother blocked from my phone? Wow?

23:18 Yeah, I look back through the evidence and think that that's a choice I made and I'm better off for it. So your immediate family all out of your life now, or have you re established those relationships? They are all out of my life now. The process of writing the book brought to the surface a very long history of racism in my family. My family is Southern conservative portrait of Robert E. Lee and are the centerpiece of our home, Confederate level stuff. And you know, just this element of patriarchy and white supremacy that as an adult I understand and don't want to tolerate, and as a child and all throughout my life also had an effect on me. You know it also, this hierarchy and patriarchy and all of these random rules and the white supremacy, it had a way of oppressing me, my little baby girl, white girl self because of the extreme misogyny in my family. So I felt that and it was not explicit, and no one would tell me that that was going on. But this place where the big global problems like the patriarchy and white supremacy and our

24:51 own personal mistreatments, the place where those things overlap, I think, is where the power is. I think by addressing and drawing a line, drawing a boundary with my own family, I made the world a little bit better in this bigger white supremacy problem, and I massively affected my own life because now I can grieve, I can do what I need to do to feel the loss of not talking to and hugging my family who I love, and not have new harm continuing to come in. It's not easy to lose, and like I said, there's no magic in this book that makes it easy to lose. But you can heal from the losses and create whatever you want to create with your life if you can stop the harm from continuing to come in. It's very hard to heal, it's hard to forgive, it's hard to build and create and connect if you are allowing the harm to still come in. So there's been a lot of blocking in my journey.

26:05 Can we talk about your hiro practice. So this is the model that you have created because you've basically built this neat framework, which I'm not saying it's easy, but it's a neat little framework which people can actually walk step by step through this process of enforcing boundaries. Can you tell us about the shiro? Yeah, Hiro is an acronym, and I try to make a point of saying that you really don't want a hero or a shiro except for yourself. So this is really about being your own hiro. And the S is for slow down so you can hear your true self.

26:45 There's no magic there, just those age old principles are really becoming mindful. The H is harnessing the wisdom of your patterns, that truth of human brains that we are going to repeat patterns. Let's become experts them. The E is execute boundaries to protect your energy. This is you know, this step is the business. This is where you're having those hard conversations. The R is recreate and attract the relationships you want. So now that you have made some space and energy by protecting yourself with boundaries, you can really think about what you want, what you want to draw in, what relationship you'd like to keep and change, transform into a new place. And then the O is march on your own path with an open heart. And that's about really getting in touch with what you need, want and like it's astonishing and maybe you run into this when you're talking to people. A lot of people do not know what they want, don't know what they like, don't know what they need, and it's because that takes energy.

27:56 And if all of your energy is in service to others, then you'll miss the chance to find out what you need one like. And I think of those three questions as being about, you know, what do you need is really zoomed in, like for me, the answer is usually a walk or a bath or you know, like what do I need right now? And then what do I want? Is maybe farther out, what do I want to do this weekend? Especially if you're used to in your life letting someone else drive the bus, you know, just somebody else makes all the decisions. Really taking time to get in tune with what your perfect weekend would look like.

28:38 What food do you like, where do you like to eat, where do you want to go, what do you want to do? What feels good at the end? Of the day, How will the day have played out that you'll feel satisfied and happy? And then what do you like? Is just really fundamental to reconnecting to your preferences. You know, what colors do you like? What closed do you like? I have my favorite markers and my favorite textures and all these little details in our lives that if I know, I love lavender. You know, if we add them in, then we'll have a life with more of our preferences in it. And if we don't know and can't connect to those fundamental questions and our own path just never really takes shape.

29:25 You make a really great point that so much of our fear that we talked about at the beginning is this fear of loss and the fear of disconnection and the fear of destroying all of the things and the relationships and all of the things that matter to us. But it's so important to shift our focus to the possibility of joy and connection and creation and what's available to us. We just have to get ourselves past that fear or just I guess maybe just reframe it and learn to see it in a different why. Yeah, and accept the losses. You know, when you're talking at the beginning about the picture of a boundaried life and how it can feel maybe not quite possible. The picture of the most joyful, happy, boundaried life that I've ever experienced also included, you know, a day or two of crying in the fetal position because I miss my mom.

30:26 So there really isn't a way that I know of or have gotten to yet where all of the sadness and loss goes away. But there is so much that is nourishing and interesting about the time that I'm not feeling the loss. There's this place I can get to with accepting that these are losses I'm going to have to endure. This is the path I've chosen. And then I've got all this time and energy to make what I want to make. Do I want to do, hang out with who I want to hang out with, follow these little paths of curiosity that I have, and really make my life what I wanted to be.

31:11 You remind me of the Buddhist I'm you know, with my mindfulness and practice, and I'm into Buddhist psychology and philosophy, and it's not about there being no suffering in life. This is what you're speaking to, really it's about what is worth suffering for. And we spend so much of our time trying to avoid the suffering or just you know, and often that means denying ourselves. But we're suffering one way or another. That's absolutely right, there's no avoiding it. I wanted to just speak to you too. You talked about early experiences and early patterns, and you gave a really good example of how as children, you and I both parents, so I always like to think about the next generation. We talk about as children, how you were taught not directly but indirectly to disconnect from your true preferences.

32:05 And you gave the example of, for example, the kids that you wanted to hang out with, and if they were family friends or if they were neighbors, then we had to be nice, no matter how mean or bullying they were, you know, kill them with kindness, to turn the other cheek, all of that sort of stuff. But if there were people who you really did connect with, if they were from the wrong side of the tracks, or they you know, they're somehow different, or you know, then you couldn't be friends with them. And so there's all of these ways that we have potentially and they're just little micro examples, microaggressions, but they add up to this denying or disconnecting from how we really feel and what we really want. So what are you doing differently with North, your your little boy so that he honors you, know, his preferences and his gut feelings.

32:55 I love this question. He's made everything in the hole world to talk about. I very much want to do well in my parenting and spend a lot of time thinking about how, first and foremost I can be congruent. I believe that kids into it and feel so much more than we think they do. I remember as a child tapping into things and feeling them even though no one really explained what was going on, and how confusing that was. And I really make an effort with North to call out what is happening. So, for instance, when I'm having those really big lost days where I'm feeling the sadness and the grief of being disconnected to my family of origin, he knows that I'm having a hard time.

33:52 I keep my real like boohooing to myself. I do that, I do that privately, but he will see, you know that I'm a little weepy, and I'll tell him the truth of what's going on and how I am feeling, and when I'm wrong, I apologize. And when he tells me he likes something, I believe him. And when he tells me he needs something or wants something, I believe him. He doesn't always get it, but I don't tell him no, you don't want that. I think we do that to kids a lot. You just don't know what you want. You just don't know what you like to eat. You just don't know what your preferences are. And I know better, and I try really hard not to do that to him.

34:36 I try to respect him as a fully formed, whole human being, you know, horrible decision making and all the other things that come with being a normal kid, but fully able to connect with himself and know what he wants and who he is and what he likes. So listening to him and being congruent, you know, and following up when I'm not I am not perfect, and when I project, which is inevitable. I sometimes I'll tell him that I'm protecting him from something, and then I'll go back and be like, no, no, no, I'm actually protecting me. It triggers me. I'm protecting me here from that. We have to get that influence out of here because I need it to be out of here. So I try to clean it up. You know, if I make a mistake, I go back and clean it up. So apologizing, congruence, and listening are my toolboxes. Are my tools in my parenting toolbox.

35:33 Yeah, and you know when we talk about boundaries and parenting, I often think about too, especially for the mothers who sacrifice everything for their kids with all of the best of intentions, what are we role modeling in terms of self care and what they should grow up to aspire to and the importance of boundaries. So how do you model good boundaries for him? That is the most important thing to do for boundaries with kids, in my opinion, is to model it. And I think the way that you model is to be be someone that it is safe for them to say no to.

36:13 I love that, Yeah, you know. Managing my own feelings of rejection, Yes, being having a boundary placed towards you or that you are affected by from someone else does feel like a rejection and it can hurt and down to its core it kind of is a rejection, Like I don't I want my space or my time to not exactly include you or you doing that right now. So it is a rejection to some extent, and we can practice that being allowable, and we can practice paying attention to how that makes us feel and managing it, owning it, naming it, feeling it, and maintaining that it is safe for the other person.

37:08 So I respect my kids privacy. He knows he can tell me no. I don't ask him permission every single time I touch him, but I can tell when maybe he doesn't want me to run my hands through his hair, or you know, maybe he doesn't want me to, you know, lick my thumb and get the chocolate off his face or whatever, and I try to catch it. I try to ask him, you know, do you mind it? Can I run this brush through your hair? And when he says no, I back off. And obviously he can't always say no to everything, and he has rules and limits, and I'm always kind of holding the container of what he can do and not do so that he is safe and protected and healthy. But I try to give him as much control as he can. And when he doesn't want my time and attention, I go off and lick my wounds instead of making it his problem.

38:07 Yeah, and one last thing I wanted to talk about, because you're very open in the book about confronting challenges in your marriage too, And we've talked about, or you talked about the patriarchy and the systems and the hierarchy and how that was being reflected in your marriage. I'm sure not just your marriage. I'm sure a lot of marriages with that very traditional man at the top of the pyramid, whether that's conscious or not. That kind of internalized misogyny is what you called it. But we often talk about the patriarchy and it's damaging effects on women, but it obviously is very damaging to men too, and I have men listening to this podcast as well. And I'm while you were the one leading the charge to establish a more equal partnership in your marriage, and that involved you know, you've made some tough calls and you actually moved down and really re established the boundaries and the ground rules in that relationship. I'm curious to know whether Jason, now your husband, is also able to acknowledge how much he was also damaged by those patterns and how much he is also benefited by a new approach, a more equal and balanced partnership.

39:27 Absolutely, he has maybe done the lie and share of the work in our relationship. I was absolutely the initiator of drawing the line, and that was very difficult and scary. But the amount of work that he has had to do to overcome the notion that he is responsible for his emotions, the way that we train boys and men that they are not responsible for their emotions. If they cannot feel them or express them except for anger, has enormous long term damaging effects. They're isolated. I think that Jason would say he had a real sense of feeling so desperate to protect his position, his power, his control, his ego, that he was unable to be vulnerable with anyone.

40:24 And we're at a place in our relationship he's I mean, and again, no magic, counseling, lots and lots and lots and lots, lots and lots of therapy and childhood stuff and all the things that we wish we didn't have to do. He's done it all. And we are still having moments where it feels like misogyny is in the room and we're debating or arguing something that seems like nonsense to me, and he has to do the work of seeing it, and I have to do the work of walking away until and letting him go through his process of seeing it. And he's very skilled at seeing it now and preventing it and apologizing when he can't preventing it. And my favorite thing is that he apologizes with this specificity. He tells me exactly what happened. He tells me, you know, he admits and validates that was misogyny.

41:31 There was misogyny in the room. I figured out, you know, with about twenty four hours to mull it over. He can kind of see, that's what happened, and that's when it happened, and that's where it happened, and that's how I felt. The trigger was this. Wow, Yes, it's amazing. I mean, his apologies are able to just neutralize the conflict so quickly that the we still have blips do, but the amount of time and energy that they stuck up in our lives is minuscule compared to what it used to be. So you would say it has definitely been worth doing the hard yards. It has.

42:13 It's weird to look back at, you know, this past Christmas and say I loved it. It was such a great holiday. I had so much fun, and I'm disconnected with my family, and there's this pandemic and it doesn't seem like if you wrote things out that they're going my way. And yet I am experiencing the joy of doing what I want to do, you know, publishing a book and making this online boot camp and talking about the patriarchy which completely lights me up, and living in my remodeled basement, my own apartment in my home where I have my own space. I'm I'm really psyched.

42:54 Well deserved because you have done the hot yachds and that's really clear from the book. And thank you for the book because it is very honest. And I think that you know they's seen those shared stories and that willingness to open up, that we find that connection and we find those points of commonality. We can see ourselves in your story, and I really appreciate it. Well, thank you for receiving it. It means a light to have gone out on a lem that far. It was very scary, and when someone like you really sees that that was hired, it kind of makes it all worth it.

43:35 Holly, thank you for your time. I so appreciate you giving us your time for our listeners over here in Australia and I will be sure to let them know where they can get the book. Fabulous, thank you so much for having me Cass. Holly's book Power Boundaries is available to order on Amazon Australia or you can connect with her on Instagram at Holly Tarry Author or her website Holly Tarry dot com. That's h O double l y t A double ry. Of course, you can always connect with me too on Instagram, I'm at cast Done underscore XO or my website cast done dot com. And if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us a rating and review. And I also love reading your messages, so shoot me a dm over on Instagram or email me hello at castone dot com.

44:23 Don't forget my third book, Crappy to Happy Love Who You're With, is out in a matter of weeks and the link to order is in the show notes. I will catch you on the next episode of Crappy to Happy. Crappy to Happy is presented by cast Don, produced by David Vilenski, audio production by Darcy Thompson. Listener