Jan. 24, 2021

Raising girls in the modern world with Madonna King

Raising girls in the modern world with Madonna King
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Raising girls in the modern world with Madonna King
Raising girls in the modern world with Madonna King
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Season 6 Women's Health And Wellbeing Relationships

Cass talks with journalist and author, Madonna King about the particular issues faced by pre-teen girls in the age of technology, social media and a global pandemic. After she wrote her best-selling, “Being 14”, parents around the country expressed that the challenges typically experienced by adolescents seemed to be appearing in their younger girls. Madonna embarked on a mission to better understand our 10-year old girls so that we can best support them to become the strong, confident, joyful young women they were born to be.You can buy Madonna's book Ten-ager here.
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Transcript
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A listener production. Hey, you're listening to Crappy to Happy.

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I'm your host, Cas Dunn. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist,

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a mindfulness meditation teacher, and author of the Crappy to

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Happy books. In this show, we talk about all the

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things that might be making you feel crappy and give

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you the tools and tips to help you overcome them.

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In each episode, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring

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and intelligent people who are experts in their field. And

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my hope is that you take something from these conversations

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that helps you feel a little bit less crappy and

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more happy. Today I'm talking to Madonna King, who is

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a journalist and an author who has gifted us with

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such gems as being fourteen, which is on my bedside

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table at the moment, as well as fathers and Daughters.

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And Madonna has just released a brand new book called

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ten Ager, which focuses on the specific challenges faced by

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ten year old girls. Of course, as parents, we want

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to know how we can best support our girls to

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navigate the world of social media, how to manage their

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changing moods, forge quality friendships, cultivate resilience, and grow into

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strong and free spirited and confident young women. So Madonna

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has pulled together lots of experts and she's got inside

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the heads of these ten year old girls to help

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us to do just that. Here's my conversation with Madonna.

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You previously wrote a book Being Fourteen, which I'm just

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going to side note I have just recently purchased because

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my daughter is now fourteen. It's been on my radar

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for a couple of years, but most recently you are

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now releasing a book called Tenager. So who are these

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ten agers? And why was it important for you that

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we target this age group now?

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So I wrote Being Fourteen, and lots of mums contacted

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me after that saying, could my daughter be very advanced

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because I'm getting the I roles earlier than fourteen? Or

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this is happening, Well, that's happening, you know. Could it

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be that you know, a ten year old now is

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similar to a fourteen year old even four or five

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years ago? And so I said about to explore that question,

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and I asked five hundred ten year olds, sixteen hundred moms,

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one hundred year five teachers, plus a whole lot of

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school principles and teen psychologists and parenting experts. But my

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aim was to get inside the girls' heads and find

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out what really worried them and then take that to

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the experts.

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Before we jump into that. You also flagged in the

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book this concept of the Alpha generation, which I hadn't

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heard before. So this ties in with these girls turning

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ten now, right, So the Alpha generation is the generation

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who was born from two thousand and ten onwards.

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Yes, so you know we have Gen X, Y Z,

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and now we've got Generation Alpha.

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We're starting the alphabet again.

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And so what are the unique challenges that have been

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faced by these kids or these girls turning ten now,

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these alphas.

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So many of them.

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I think in large part in this sounds you've heard

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it before. But you know that smartphone and what it

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does or present huge opportunities on one hand, huge challenges

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on the other. And so some people would say, look,

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I had trouble at friendship at ten, I couldn't see

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my own potential at ten, I had body image issues

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at ten. I think things are more difficult now because

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at ten we could turn off. At ten, we could

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read stuff but not necessarily understand it. At ten we

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might have even picked up a Dolly magazine, whereas now

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celebrities that our ten year olds may follow are across platforms.

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They're in Dolly and Vogue, they're on this website and

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this Instagram site, and so there's no kind of censorship

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of that. I think as a result of that, cass

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Our girls are growing up so much older, younger, but

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they're not necessarily understanding what they see and hear.

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They see a photo and they think it's true.

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They don't necessarily know it's been a doocted, or they

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see a picture of a ten year old somewhere else

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and they think, look, I'm not that pretty, I'm.

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Not that tall, my hair's not like that. There's something

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wrong with me, and we did not have to deal

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with that.

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Definitely, not to the same degree. I really appreciate what

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you just said there about how they have access to

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so much information, but they don't necessarily have the cognitive

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skills to determine what's real and what's not. I mean,

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I get that even with my teenage daughter, that she

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will come and tell me all about the amazing, this

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amazing product that's going to solve all of her problems,

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and because she's seen it on an Instagram ad or

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a TikTok or something.

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I mean, even little things like it's not just how

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someone looks on Instagram or Selena Gomez can have a

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picture of her new bag and it.

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Gets four point one million likes.

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It's something like you know, in stories about friendship on

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the screen, on movies, on what they're seeing on YouTube,

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there's usually the main person and a sidekick that works

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well in storytelling, but not necessarily in the playground. And

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so it's their ability to be able to decode those

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messages and say that's photoshopped, that's right.

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That's not a.

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Model who appears on the front page of a magazine

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her face. She may be genetically blessed, but there may

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be forty changes made to her appearance before she appears

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on the front page. It is hard for a girl

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to understand that. And what shocked me a little bit

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is how harsh they are in judgment of themselves. But

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it's understandable when they can see their friend being harsh

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in judgment on themselves too.

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So you're saying that they're exposed to this collective sort

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of self criticism.

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Yes, I think at that age, at ten, you go

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from mum and daddy, your whole world, your siblings, your

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family to being outward looking, and the two big factors

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there are your friends and maybe your teachers. And so

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all of a sudden you see there's different rules in

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different households, Different moms and dads do it differently, and

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you're looking at and thinking what do I want.

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To be like?

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Do I want to be like my mom? Do I

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want to be like my friend Sophie's mom. Do I

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want to be like that cool person? Do I want

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to be like this person on Instagram? Do I want

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to talk like this? Do I want to wear this?

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And at that.

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Age is the first time really that you can see

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the impact of them going from inward looking to outward looking,

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and there's so many differences, you know, whether they live

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in rural Australia or city Australia. Puberty happens over years.

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At that period, there's all these invisible stages going on

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from the age of five and six. So when you're ten,

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some kids said to me, they describe their builder bear

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to me. Other girls said to me, am I writing

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a chapter on what happens if a boy likes you

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and you want to like him back. So with that

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difference in the playground and your child's maybe that personal

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that person. You can see how it creates all sorts

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of dramas.

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The iPhone came out in two thousand and seven, right,

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So these kids literally are the first ones who were

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practically born with an iPhone in their hands.

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Yeah. One principle said to me.

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They remember standing up on parade and seeing all these

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moms come in with children's in prams and the iPad,

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and the iPhone was the pacifier.

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Yeah, wow, so it was.

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And so this is that generation where they've used them

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in the pram, they know how to work it, they've

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understood color from day dot, and their world is really

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different from ours.

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But it's also really different from their big sisters.

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Given that, and I know that you said in the book,

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I don't know if it was your quote of somebody else's,

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that ten is the new thirteen because of the rate,

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the acceleration of this change.

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Absolutely, the acceleration of the change, the content they have

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access to the fact that during cod so lots of

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parents gifted their child their ten year old are smartphone

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to keep in contact with their friends, but also their expectations.

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You know, now we're talking to ten year olds about

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what you want to do with your life, or you

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need to go to university and you need this atar

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and you need and I spoke to lots of psychologists

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and psychiatrists who who one of them called this a burden,

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and they said, you know, the level of anxiety in

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our ten year old girls is huge, partly because of

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parental expectation, may be a touch of teacher expectation, but

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the girls expectations. So they're looking around their class, let's say,

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even their group of four or five friends, and if

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their marks are lower than their friends, they're starting to think,

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I'm not as smart as my friends, I'm not as

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good at.

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Maths or science when at ten we have no idea

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of their capability.

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But a consequence of that, and I found this the

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most heartbreaking thing I think is our ten year olds

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are putting a ceiling on their own potential. They're decided

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at ten, I'm not going to be a maths girl

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or a science girl. I might as well give up

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netball now because I'm not going to make the A team.

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Whereas I think once upon a time we were only

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getting into it then and there was no harm in

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being the C netball team.

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Just building on that influence of the smartphone and social

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media and all of that. Did anything come out Madonna

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in terms of the impact on our communication skills, That's

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something that interests me. That ability to face to face

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talk to people.

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What a clever question. Absolutely in two ways. One is

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my belief is that our ten year old's, even our

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fourteen year olds, don't actually have the socialization skills that

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are required for friendship. So they described a friendship a

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bit like a hot chocolate, you know, fast and delicious,

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you know, whereas we know, one principle said to me,

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I met my best friend on the first day of university.

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We knew that it took ages. It wasn't something that

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happened at little lunch or morning tea. Then if someone

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was mean to us, our girls don't understand about forgiveness,

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about whether the friendship.

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Is bigger than the misdemeanor.

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I think, you know, this friendship idea of groups of

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three is vexed at that age. So I think at

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any age, all those socialization schools are a result.

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Of the smartphone.

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But there is an added thing, and that is after

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COVID and think of how long schools were closed in

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Victoria for example, principal after principal told me that post COVID,

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these girls came back to school and they had no

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idea how.

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To talk to each other.

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Really, they had done school online, they'd talked online to

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their friends, and so that ability for me to look

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at you and say, Cas, how are you is something

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that they had just then lost. And I think that's

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kind of one of the impacts of COVID that we

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haven't seen play up yet.

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And I know also my daughter, the school that she

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goes to, they were very good with setting up zoom

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lessons and very structured so that there was no real

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gap in terms of timetabling. It was much like school,

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but we did it at home. But the reluctance to

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turn on their camera, even though they see each other

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face to face a school, not wanting to be seen

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on the zoom. It was like an anxiety.

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Well, one educator said to me, Some declined because they

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didn't like the way they looked.

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Now on any judgment, that's sad.

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You know, people say, oh, well, I remember this when

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I was ten. I don't remember at ten being so

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worried about what I looked like that I didn't want

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to follow to someone. And I think the fact that

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that's happening at ten and by fourteen and fifteen that

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is really then ingrained, isn't it. Then you had other

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options where girls were wearing makeup and getting dressed up

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and straight in their hair because they were on zoom.

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I think both of those things are an underlying issue,

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aren't they, in terms of a girl's confidence and her

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ability to perhaps have the self esteem and the confidence

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to be able to put herself forward. Because in COVID,

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I mean, I don't think there was any unifying theme,

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but shy girls actually did a little bit better. Girls

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in the middle of the class academically went up a

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little bit. Some girls without an audience actually really struggled

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and something. Yeah, and I think you know, girls on

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the spectrum actually really blossomed in many cases without the

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noise of school. I think it was really interesting that

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as a scientific experiment, as hard as it was, it's

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taught us the values of individual teaching and learning and

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all of that as well.

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I know some kids whose parents decided after COVID to

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switch permanently to distance ed because their kids did so

250
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much better out of the school environment.

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Yeah, I think this makes it really hard for schools.

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You know, I have two children and they're earning an

253
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income now tutoring little kids because parents had.

254
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To look at their little kids' work. And some are saying, well,

255
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hold on, my child should know what a pyramid is.

256
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I'm getting her tutor and they're going to high school students,

257
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and I think teachers. I've spoken to so many teachers

258
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and at a school this morning where where they're struggling

259
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because as parents, we've all become an expert, and we're

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all saying, you know, I think you know, little samanthaness

261
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more work here to your mind. And I think that's

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going to make it pretty hard for some schools. Given

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the equity in schools too. You know, Cas, you just

264
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gave me your example of the school, and how good

265
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that was. I know another school where two teachers photocopied

266
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the whole curriculum at office works, got in their car,

267
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divided up the class, and went and delivered it to mailboxes.

268
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So that's pretty tough on those kids, isn't it.

269
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And it really did. That's a whole other conversation, isn't

270
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about the inequities that were that were highlighted as a

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result of COVID. The point that you make, though, is

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it's such a challenging time in their development anyway, in

273
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terms of that their bodies are changing and they get

274
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so self conscious and then too, I think that's the

275
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thing with the zoom camera. We go to school, we

276
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go to work, but we're not looking at ourselves in

277
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a mirror all day, are we? But it was just

278
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that having to look at themselves on the screen was

279
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the issue.

280
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And you know, and because it can be captured, and

281
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you know, and we know in the world of selfies,

282
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everything's got to be perfect. We don't keep those photos

283
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where we've got red eyes or we don't look our best.

284
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And I think all that fed into it.

285
00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:44.039
Madonna, you mentioned that the process of puberty happens long

286
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before the first period, and I read in the book

287
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you know, up to six years before the first period,

288
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girls can be going through puberty. So what are the

289
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issues that can be going on, Like what's happening under

290
00:14:57.360 --> 00:15:00.840
the bonnet that we are not necessarily seeing is really

291
00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:02.799
affecting our kids that we should be aware of.

292
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Did you know that? Did you know about those.

293
00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:08.960
He well, I knew that. I guess I knew my

294
00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:12.360
own daughter was getting a bit moody and she was

295
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having stomach pains and I thought, oh, this sounds like

296
00:15:15.799 --> 00:15:19.000
periods coming. But it's up to six years. I mean

297
00:15:19.039 --> 00:15:20.919
that puts them at what in year.

298
00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:23.480
Seven year old? Yes, even less.

299
00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:27.480
I didn't know this, And it's Professor George Patten his work,

300
00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:30.679
and he's done it over ten years. It's phenomenal research.

301
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And one quote he gave me really showed this to me.

302
00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:37.799
He said, if you want an ash party and you

303
00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:40.200
put all the effort at tennis racket, all the effort

304
00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:43.200
into a child of three years old, you're not going

305
00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:46.200
to get an ash party. But at seven or eight,

306
00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:49.480
if you do exactly the same thing, you just might.

307
00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:53.399
And his argument is that's when girls are turning on,

308
00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:57.039
so everything in their mind, in their body, they're able

309
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to learn quicker, they understand things. He says, it's a

310
00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:06.039
massive age where you can change the trajectory of girls.

311
00:16:06.519 --> 00:16:09.879
So he says most girls who are seeing a mental

312
00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:14.000
health service at fifteen or sixteen had the problem since

313
00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:17.120
they were seven or eight. That's when it started. So

314
00:16:17.159 --> 00:16:20.200
we're not actually intervening early, we're leaving it. We've missed

315
00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:22.000
the boat. And he said, we put all our research

316
00:16:22.039 --> 00:16:25.320
into infants and toddlers where we should have been doing

317
00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:29.919
it with these early teenagers. So everything from heart health

318
00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:36.879
to obesity, to mental health, to how they become the

319
00:16:36.919 --> 00:16:39.559
person they are. So in that re orientation away from

320
00:16:39.559 --> 00:16:42.320
their family, will they be a naughty girl or not?

321
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Will they work hard academically or not? What do they

322
00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:50.960
think of their body? Is it a true reflection of

323
00:16:51.399 --> 00:16:54.080
what they look like or not? And he said this

324
00:16:54.360 --> 00:16:58.279
invisible stage, which starts five or six early years earlier

325
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than menstruation, is when all that is happening, in his words,

326
00:17:02.440 --> 00:17:06.079
under the bonnet, and teachers and parents need to be

327
00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:09.039
more aware of that. And he said teachers often can

328
00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:11.279
put their finger on something that happens in year three

329
00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:13.519
or four, but they don't know what it is. But

330
00:17:13.640 --> 00:17:15.759
girls start to change a little bit, act up a

331
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little bit, do different things.

332
00:17:17.799 --> 00:17:18.920
This is what it is.

333
00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:21.920
And then a couple of years later we see a

334
00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:24.960
little bit of a rise, perhaps in anxiety or attitude,

335
00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:27.279
maybe slamming the door or not wanting to talk to us,

336
00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:32.400
wanting more privacy. That too, is part of that journey

337
00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:33.559
towards menstruation.

338
00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:37.960
So is the takeaway that is, what do we need

339
00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:39.920
to be watching for I guess what do we need

340
00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:40.519
to be doing?

341
00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:46.440
Yeah, I think if we could tell every parent to

342
00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:50.119
stop thinking about periods and to think about when their

343
00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:52.920
daughter may be embarking on that journey. If we can

344
00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:56.960
engage dads so they talk about it openly and it's

345
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not this thing about don't tell dad and it paths.

346
00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:05.200
Even if we can have sex education earlier so girls understand,

347
00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:11.559
they don't think they're freaks, they know they're perfectly normal, beautiful, developing.

348
00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:11.920
Gorgeous girls.

349
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Then I think information is knowledge, and the more we

350
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can have people access that information and understand it, I

351
00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:22.200
think our girls would benefit us.

352
00:18:29.559 --> 00:18:34.440
You mentioned also earlier this disparity between the rate of

353
00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:40.039
development and cognitively, but you know physically that socially, emotionally

354
00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:44.119
their development this gap that opens up across a group

355
00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:47.920
of friends. At around that age ten or eleven, I

356
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:51.480
was reflecting that my daughter, Actually, because we moved from

357
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the city to the coast when she was in year four,

358
00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:57.400
she spent the last three years of her primary school

359
00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:01.359
in a local public school which had multiage classrooms, and

360
00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:03.359
I probably didn't appreciate at the time. I mean I

361
00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:05.880
really liked it. But I didn't appreciate just what a

362
00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:09.359
blessing that was because it gave them this opportunity to

363
00:19:09.400 --> 00:19:13.240
gravitate to their level. They were in a class where

364
00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:16.039
of a year four five and six for example, or

365
00:19:16.119 --> 00:19:18.720
year five and six or four and five or whatever,

366
00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:21.920
for that reason that they could find their level. Is

367
00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:25.759
there an argument for that? I mean, that's school's sort

368
00:19:25.799 --> 00:19:27.960
of based on the Montessori approach, I think, but it's

369
00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:31.240
a public school, but something we should be considering.

370
00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:34.519
I think there's a fore and against. I think that's

371
00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:38.519
absolutely true. And people when where we don't judge our

372
00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:41.039
friends now on their age, we have tennis friends and

373
00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:43.119
work friends and school friends, and we don't say, oh,

374
00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:46.079
you're forty five, sorry, two years younger than me, We

375
00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:49.160
actually did you know? And back then because they're put

376
00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:51.160
in that years, they're kind of stuck in that, and

377
00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:54.480
you see a difference in ballet or in sport when

378
00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:57.079
they're not in exactly the same age. So it's under

379
00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:00.160
fourteen and they might be twelve, thirteen or fourteen, and

380
00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:02.960
so for those reasons, I absolutely agree with you.

381
00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:05.279
People who are opposed to that.

382
00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:10.400
Use the argument of, for example, homerooms at schools that

383
00:20:10.519 --> 00:20:13.759
have years from years twelve down to year eight, for example,

384
00:20:14.200 --> 00:20:17.920
is terrific for boys and girls developing big brothers and

385
00:20:17.960 --> 00:20:21.039
big sister role models and the like. But there's other

386
00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:24.640
issues too, When someone in grade eleven is having trouble

387
00:20:24.680 --> 00:20:27.920
with her boyfriend or doesn't know what dressed wear to

388
00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:31.559
a formal and they're talking in front of ten and

389
00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:35.880
eleven year olds when what they're watching on their phone

390
00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:39.559
is something that an eleven year old doesn't quite understand,

391
00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:41.480
and so I can see that as a kind of

392
00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:42.920
a fore and against to it.

393
00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:46.559
Yeah. I hadn't thought about that really until I read

394
00:20:46.599 --> 00:20:48.759
in the book about you know that. I thought, yes,

395
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:51.960
that's so true. There are such a gap, so Madonna,

396
00:20:52.039 --> 00:20:56.200
while they are going through those changes pre menstruation and

397
00:20:56.240 --> 00:20:58.759
some of those moodswings and door slamming, and we're seeing

398
00:20:58.759 --> 00:21:03.400
that in younger girls. I think parents are on the

399
00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:05.640
one hand, we want them to learn to express themselves.

400
00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:07.000
On on the other hand, we want them to learn to

401
00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:11.640
manage their emotions and learn to to calm down. How

402
00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:13.599
do we find that balance, do you think?

403
00:21:14.440 --> 00:21:18.759
I think by listening to them and being consistent self

404
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:22.440
regulation of their emotions is one of the key indicators

405
00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:25.960
of success. So we've got to teach our girls not

406
00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:28.319
to cry at the drop of a hat, to try

407
00:21:28.359 --> 00:21:33.519
and resolve problems, and that's important, but put that aside,

408
00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:35.559
there's going to be a little bit of that in

409
00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:39.039
the development in their development. I think if we're consistent

410
00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:44.079
so that they know that we're not going to be

411
00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:47.000
angry or we're going to be understanding, but we're not

412
00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:50.880
going to accept bad behavior, and it's consistent, they then

413
00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:53.960
know what to expect. I'm teaching my sixteen year old

414
00:21:54.039 --> 00:21:56.279
to drive at the moment, and it's no different cats,

415
00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:58.759
and I'm hopeless at it because you know, I'm sitting

416
00:21:58.759 --> 00:22:00.680
there hanging on to the side of the car going,

417
00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:02.720
oh my god, Oh my god, oh my god, she's

418
00:22:02.759 --> 00:22:05.839
not learning anything, you know, And I know I'm doing

419
00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:08.319
I know I'm doing it wrong. And I think it's

420
00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:12.480
exactly the same that if where the adult and we

421
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:18.119
know as mums, especially what they're going through, and to

422
00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:20.920
go through that at ten when some of your friends

423
00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:23.680
and you're developing and your breasts are a little bit

424
00:22:23.720 --> 00:22:26.240
there and your mother's saying you better wear this bra,

425
00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:28.400
and then other kids are laughing at you because you're

426
00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:30.599
wearing a bra, or because you're not wearing a bra.

427
00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:35.240
I think you add that to how they're feeling that

428
00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:38.480
insecurity and who they want to be and why they

429
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:42.119
don't look like someone else. And I don't think they

430
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:44.279
mean to walk in and slam the door. I think

431
00:22:44.279 --> 00:22:46.960
they want more privacy. I think they're a little bit

432
00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:50.440
nervous about dad in a sense. Often the girl will

433
00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:53.279
step back from her dad at about that time. But

434
00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:56.039
I would say if we continue to listen, and we

435
00:22:56.079 --> 00:22:59.599
are very consistent in what we accept and we don't accept,

436
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:03.079
then it provides the barometer of how much.

437
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:03.559
They can pushes.

438
00:23:04.119 --> 00:23:06.400
And you also give some good examples in the book

439
00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:10.119
of some strategies. I think that's, you know, giving them

440
00:23:10.119 --> 00:23:13.000
strategies to regulate their emotions. You mentioned music.

441
00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:17.759
How good was music? Yeah, So all this research shows

442
00:23:17.799 --> 00:23:22.440
that music is a really good thing for girls to

443
00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:26.720
learn a whole lot of stuff, for example, even the

444
00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:30.519
idea of timetabling or that part of the brain that

445
00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:34.880
allows them to organize. And I've spoke to several experts

446
00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:38.640
who say that music in middle school and even into

447
00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:39.240
high school.

448
00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:41.240
So even if you've got a fourteen or fifteen.

449
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:45.160
Year old they'm actually learning a musical instrument can help

450
00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:47.119
them in a whole lot of other ways, from self

451
00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:51.200
regulation to planning, to organization and all of that. In

452
00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:53.720
many ways, self regulation comes down to a lot of

453
00:23:53.759 --> 00:23:56.319
things too, and some of those are environmental. Some of

454
00:23:56.359 --> 00:23:59.799
those are you know what kind of life the girls have?

455
00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:04.960
If you look even at when a girl reaches puberty,

456
00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:08.799
that can be years difference, and some of the factors

457
00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:13.960
are environmental factors. Whether One interesting fact I found is

458
00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:21.279
that girls from foster children can come to puberty years

459
00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:24.000
before others. And I spoke to the head of a

460
00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:28.079
state foster care association. He's fostered one hundred and fifty

461
00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:31.640
children over twenty eight years, and he says he sees

462
00:24:31.720 --> 00:24:35.880
at nine what everyone else sees at thirteen and fourteen.

463
00:24:35.920 --> 00:24:36.680
It's almost like.

464
00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:40.319
The girls are impelled to grow up more quickly. So

465
00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:43.759
everything from eternal depression to the environment, to a whole

466
00:24:43.799 --> 00:24:44.160
lot of.

467
00:24:44.119 --> 00:24:44.799
Things help that.

468
00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:48.119
A couple of things that stood out to me was teachers,

469
00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:52.000
And I spoke to one hundred teachers. Overridingly, they say

470
00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:57.519
parents who molly coddle their children impact on their self

471
00:24:57.599 --> 00:25:02.200
regulation and their resilience. Overwhelmingly people told me that kids

472
00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:06.319
from country areas were often more resilient because they'd seen

473
00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:09.400
animals live and die, they'd seen their parents worry about

474
00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:11.039
drought and flood's.

475
00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:12.359
Big picture, not little picture.

476
00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:16.599
And as evidence of that, sometimes you see kids from

477
00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:20.200
rural areas become less resilient when they move to boarding

478
00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:25.160
school in the city. Kids who have spent time in

479
00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:28.119
a cancer ward will often be a lot more resilient.

480
00:25:28.200 --> 00:25:31.720
And it's almost like they get a perspective on life

481
00:25:31.880 --> 00:25:37.279
that you know, privileged children or not even privileged children.

482
00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:40.559
Hopefully most children never have to encounter.

483
00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:45.200
It's so challenging, isn't it, Because we are this generation

484
00:25:45.400 --> 00:25:49.759
where you know, to like my mother's generation, yours as well,

485
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:52.079
you know my grandmother, it was children were seen and

486
00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:55.480
not heard, and now children are kind of front and center,

487
00:25:55.839 --> 00:25:57.279
and we want to give them the best, and we

488
00:25:57.319 --> 00:25:58.799
want to give them every opportunity, We want to give

489
00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:01.160
them a voice, and they listen to their opinion, and

490
00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:05.960
then where do you find a balance between molly coddling

491
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:08.319
them and raising these entitled brands.

492
00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:11.079
Well, and you say about opinions, you know, especially I

493
00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:14.079
learned in doing being fourteen first, but it's relevant here too,

494
00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:16.839
is is we send our children to school and we

495
00:26:16.880 --> 00:26:19.680
want them, especially girls, to stand up for themselves and

496
00:26:19.720 --> 00:26:22.559
to give their opinion and to be able to argue

497
00:26:22.599 --> 00:26:25.640
their case with conviction and clarity. Then they come home

498
00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:27.559
and they say, you know, I think we should have

499
00:26:27.559 --> 00:26:30.400
more refugees, dad, or you know, I think we should

500
00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:34.200
remain a monarchy, or I think I'm gay at eleven,

501
00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:36.279
and all of a sudden we go hold on, hold on,

502
00:26:36.359 --> 00:26:36.880
hold on.

503
00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:39.599
And we never agree with our parents on everything.

504
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:43.000
And I really think it's important for us to disagree

505
00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:46.759
with that argument if we like, but not to take

506
00:26:46.960 --> 00:26:50.240
them on personally, because they may have only decided their

507
00:26:50.279 --> 00:26:53.400
opinion at lunchtime. They may actually even be baiting us

508
00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:56.880
and that not their opinion. But on that molly coddling.

509
00:26:56.920 --> 00:26:59.880
Another factor there, people explain to me is when we're

510
00:27:00.200 --> 00:27:03.359
I had four brothers, so families were kind of horizontal

511
00:27:03.880 --> 00:27:07.400
and grandparents who went and visited and they said hello,

512
00:27:07.480 --> 00:27:10.960
and it was lovely. Now it's vertical. Grandparents have a

513
00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:13.880
much bigger role. Lots of schools, they actually pay the

514
00:27:13.920 --> 00:27:14.880
school fees.

515
00:27:14.599 --> 00:27:15.319
Not mum and dad.

516
00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:16.400
I found out.

517
00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:20.279
And often parents have one or two children and they're

518
00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:23.680
at every soccer match or every netball match, they're at

519
00:27:23.720 --> 00:27:28.680
every piano presentation, and so they're so invested in them

520
00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:31.759
that we feel as though we're ruining them if we

521
00:27:31.799 --> 00:27:34.920
don't give them every opportunity to be that Olympian or

522
00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:39.519
to be in the New York Philharmonic Orchestra. And I'm

523
00:27:39.640 --> 00:27:42.960
you know, one principle told me this story was COVID

524
00:27:43.039 --> 00:27:46.079
came down. She sent a note saying, having our musical,

525
00:27:46.119 --> 00:27:48.799
but will send you a link. Obviously people can't be

526
00:27:48.839 --> 00:27:53.000
there in person. Parents snuck in under the cover of

527
00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:57.119
darkness to watch their child on a stage in pitch black,

528
00:27:57.599 --> 00:28:00.839
and when questioned they said that they were it would

529
00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:01.839
impact on their.

530
00:28:01.799 --> 00:28:05.440
Daughter's anxiety unless they were there. Now, your mother never

531
00:28:05.480 --> 00:28:05.920
did that.

532
00:28:06.119 --> 00:28:09.599
You know, this idea of fighting over every half mark

533
00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:12.680
and going up and saying, look, this girl was school captain.

534
00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:16.039
Can you just give me the criteria.

535
00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:17.519
You know, so I can check it against mine, because

536
00:28:17.559 --> 00:28:20.279
I thought mine was going to I remember being in

537
00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:22.960
a tennis or wasn't even a final, probably you know,

538
00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:26.839
a quarterfinal or something once at about twelve and I

539
00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:28.680
said to Mum, are you coming to watch me? She

540
00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:31.799
said no, and with four brothers. It wasn't she didn't

541
00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:34.880
even think she would be coming and watching me. But

542
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:39.720
I'm not too impacted for life. And I know that

543
00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:42.200
sounds harsh, because we want the best for our kids,

544
00:28:42.279 --> 00:28:46.519
But on every piece of advice I got is by

545
00:28:46.680 --> 00:28:49.880
helping them too much in the short term, we're not

546
00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:51.880
helping them in the long term.

547
00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:54.839
And that's really a lesson for us as parents. I

548
00:28:54.880 --> 00:28:57.559
think I think we all need to remind ourselves of that.

549
00:28:57.759 --> 00:29:00.519
Notice, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

550
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:04.319
Yes, Madonna, we talked about that age of ten and onwards,

551
00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:07.400
that kind of pre pubescent age where they're forming their

552
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:10.440
own identity and as you said, they're looking outwards and

553
00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:13.359
they're working out who they want to be and what

554
00:29:13.400 --> 00:29:16.599
they want to be like. And now, also, as you said,

555
00:29:16.599 --> 00:29:21.839
they've got this whole influencer culture, this whole celebrity culture,

556
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:25.160
and we can't take that away. That's not changing, that's

557
00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:30.119
not going anywhere. How do we be supportive and I

558
00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:32.319
don't know, how do we help them to shape who

559
00:29:32.359 --> 00:29:34.240
they want to be and make sure they've got those

560
00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:38.920
positive role models while they're making these kind of decisions

561
00:29:38.920 --> 00:29:40.400
about who they want to be and how they want

562
00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:41.079
to be In the world.

563
00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:44.400
Yes, so minor teens. Now, if I had an eight

564
00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:46.720
or nine or a ten year old, now, I would

565
00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:50.720
actually physically draw up list of people who I thought

566
00:29:50.759 --> 00:29:53.680
would be good examples for them. And it may be

567
00:29:53.720 --> 00:29:58.119
a cousin in another country town that they could contact

568
00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:00.680
three times a year. It's not so they've got to

569
00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:04.839
be mentored with every day. But I think the antidote

570
00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:09.359
for the influencer industry is earthy men and women who

571
00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:16.480
are really genuine, authentic and who are cool for what they.

572
00:30:16.359 --> 00:30:18.279
Do, not what they look like.

573
00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:22.880
And I interviewed inspector John Rowse, who runs those investigations

574
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:26.759
into pedophile networks, and we're talking about all these influences.

575
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:30.640
The influencer market went from one point seven billion four

576
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:33.640
years ago to ten billion last year, and he's saying,

577
00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:36.480
who the hell are these people? This is not what

578
00:30:36.519 --> 00:30:38.720
you call a role model. And so it might be

579
00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:42.039
a teacher, a coach. The girls often said, a big

580
00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:44.839
sister while they argued with them. They knew their big

581
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:49.079
sister would help them. Granddad is gold. You know why

582
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:53.160
he doesn't judge me, They all say, whereas Mum and

583
00:30:53.240 --> 00:30:56.960
dad judge, granddad never does apparently, so you know.

584
00:30:57.079 --> 00:30:59.160
Aunt's uncles, a neighbor.

585
00:30:59.480 --> 00:31:02.799
You know, your your best friend is a fantastic mentor

586
00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:03.799
for your daughter.

587
00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:07.839
And I think we've got to.

588
00:31:06.680 --> 00:31:09.960
Then not judge our daughter when she wants to talk

589
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:13.200
to them. And I know that can be hard, because

590
00:31:13.240 --> 00:31:15.079
if my daughter came to me and said, look, I

591
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:17.000
want to speak to my auntie about something, I don't

592
00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:18.039
want to tell you what it is.

593
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:19.599
It's like atch.

594
00:31:20.359 --> 00:31:23.839
But our goal is to grow them so they graduate

595
00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:26.440
as eighteen year olds as these beautiful adults who are

596
00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:31.559
curious and safe and kind, And that's the person we want.

597
00:31:31.759 --> 00:31:35.440
And the more mentors or.

598
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:39.359
Influences they have that they can see in real life

599
00:31:39.559 --> 00:31:42.160
and talk to and contact.

600
00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:44.160
Is best.

601
00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:48.119
And every expert said that is the best antidote to

602
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:50.640
the influencer they're seeing on their phone.

603
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:53.599
And they want to be influencers. Some of them too,

604
00:31:53.720 --> 00:31:57.960
like that's a legitimate kind of career option for a

605
00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:01.079
lot of them. Now you know that's the world we

606
00:32:01.119 --> 00:32:02.559
live in, too, isn't it. Like I said, I want

607
00:32:02.599 --> 00:32:03.720
to be what do you want to be when you

608
00:32:03.720 --> 00:32:05.400
grow up? I want to be a YouTuber. I want

609
00:32:05.400 --> 00:32:06.599
to be an influencer.

610
00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:09.839
But to do that, they've got to understand people's behavior,

611
00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:13.079
and that's not by living online. So good on them,

612
00:32:13.160 --> 00:32:14.880
and some of our children will grow up to be

613
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:18.079
massive influencers, and hopefully for the good, because you can

614
00:32:18.119 --> 00:32:19.960
influence in a whole lot of good areas as well

615
00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:23.000
as bad. I'm not against technology. I think it is

616
00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:26.039
the most wonderful invention. You may not be old enough,

617
00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:31.000
but I remember doing primary school assignments with an Encyclopedia Britannica, which.

618
00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:32.119
Was next to useless.

619
00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:35.839
So I think the ability that they have been granted

620
00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:40.119
through technology is wonderful. It's not going away. Our job

621
00:32:40.279 --> 00:32:43.119
is to teach them how to use it, and when

622
00:32:43.119 --> 00:32:46.559
it becomes our fault, if you like, is if we

623
00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:48.480
don't know how to use it. We don't give the

624
00:32:48.559 --> 00:32:50.680
kids the key toor car and say take it for

625
00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:52.519
a run and tell us what you need to know.

626
00:32:53.000 --> 00:32:55.160
So this idea that we hand them a phone and

627
00:32:55.240 --> 00:32:58.000
say all right, you can go on Instagram. Now go

628
00:32:58.039 --> 00:33:00.599
and do it. You know we need to do it too.

629
00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:02.839
And one dad said to me at this parent night,

630
00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:05.079
but who do I talk to on Instagram?

631
00:33:05.119 --> 00:33:06.359
You don't have to talk to anyone.

632
00:33:06.599 --> 00:33:09.720
You just have to know how to do it and

633
00:33:09.759 --> 00:33:13.160
how your daughter is doing it the parameters that she

634
00:33:13.240 --> 00:33:14.000
can operate in.

635
00:33:14.039 --> 00:33:16.799
I guess ten year olds on Instagram.

636
00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:17.799
Oh yeah.

637
00:33:18.200 --> 00:33:22.480
So of the sixteen hundred mums that whose council I sought,

638
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:26.160
half of them said their children had a smartphone, and

639
00:33:26.799 --> 00:33:29.039
a hell of a lot of them had Instagram.

640
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:30.799
I was quite surprised.

641
00:33:30.839 --> 00:33:34.279
Instagram and TikTok are the most common social platforms that

642
00:33:34.359 --> 00:33:37.079
our ten year olds are on. Many had house Party

643
00:33:37.160 --> 00:33:39.799
and Snapchat and a whole lot of others. But I

644
00:33:39.880 --> 00:33:42.400
do think there was an almighty jump in the first

645
00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:46.119
six months of last year because parents saw as a

646
00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:47.799
way of connecting during COVID.

647
00:33:48.319 --> 00:33:51.240
As you say, will be seeing the flow on effects

648
00:33:51.240 --> 00:33:52.759
from COVID for a while.

649
00:33:52.599 --> 00:33:52.960
I think.

650
00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:53.079
So.

651
00:33:53.480 --> 00:33:55.839
I think so confidence and.

652
00:33:55.759 --> 00:33:59.839
Self esteem really takes a nosetive. I know. I remember

653
00:33:59.880 --> 00:34:03.839
my daughter and her friends. It is that time where

654
00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:09.079
they start dropping out of sport or dance or ballet.

655
00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:12.519
Partly they lose interest. I think partly they just don't

656
00:34:12.519 --> 00:34:14.599
want to be out in a leotada or a crop

657
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:19.239
top because they start getting body conscious. Any advice about that.

658
00:34:19.960 --> 00:34:22.679
Yeah, So I didn't realize this, but teachers explained to

659
00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:24.800
me how girls this age are double togging.

660
00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:27.360
They're wearing two swimsuits.

661
00:34:26.840 --> 00:34:27.880
Wowing lessons.

662
00:34:28.519 --> 00:34:31.760
I spoke to several girls who said, I used to

663
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:34.079
dance when I was nine, but now I'm ten, I

664
00:34:34.119 --> 00:34:36.519
don't because all of a sudden, you can see little buds,

665
00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:38.239
or you feel as though you're.

666
00:34:38.079 --> 00:34:38.719
Fat, you know.

667
00:34:39.239 --> 00:34:42.280
And someone explained it to me, is you know, when

668
00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:45.199
you're seven or eight, our kids grab the karaoke at

669
00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:47.800
a family barbecue, or they're diving into a pool, and

670
00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:50.559
what are they yelling, Mom, Mom, look at me, Dad,

671
00:34:50.679 --> 00:34:54.760
watch my summersault. That all of a sudden it just stops.

672
00:34:55.239 --> 00:34:58.280
And what that is is that sphere of influence going

673
00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:02.920
from internal where the family is their world, to external

674
00:35:03.400 --> 00:35:07.599
and Mum and Dad's judgment is always lovely, the judgment

675
00:35:07.639 --> 00:35:10.840
of their peers is often much harsher. And to me,

676
00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:15.360
that's when you need that antidote of other mentors who

677
00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:19.480
think what they're doing is good, or acknowledge the work

678
00:35:19.519 --> 00:35:21.239
they're being put into.

679
00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:21.679
Something.

680
00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:24.960
People say, oh, you know, it's easy, you know, they've

681
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:27.559
just got to find their passion. I don't subscribe to that.

682
00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:31.440
I think lots of girls find it really hard to

683
00:35:31.480 --> 00:35:35.079
know what their passion is that will come eventually. But

684
00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:40.039
what they've got to do is realize that achievement brings competency,

685
00:35:40.599 --> 00:35:44.840
and competency gives them self confidence. So if they learn

686
00:35:44.920 --> 00:35:49.159
to do something that is something really worthwhile, no matter

687
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:52.199
how hard it is. And in building resilience, there's two

688
00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:54.599
schools of thought. One say, you know, if they learn

689
00:35:54.639 --> 00:35:58.519
empathy and kindness, that will really help them. I'm not

690
00:35:58.760 --> 00:36:01.920
sure that it's true. It may help a whole lot

691
00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:06.039
of school principles told me that it's by service opportunities.

692
00:36:06.119 --> 00:36:08.880
So them doing this and going to an old person's

693
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:11.079
home and talking to them on a Tuesday afternoon as

694
00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:14.599
part of a school program, or them lining up to

695
00:36:14.719 --> 00:36:19.239
actually help serve the homeless, or even doing the groceries

696
00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:22.519
for the lady next door and talking over the fence.

697
00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:27.000
It's a sense of I can do this, I'm grown up,

698
00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:31.559
I can help someone. And with that, principles say they

699
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:34.679
look out who's not inwards, and they're looking at other people,

700
00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:39.039
not themselves, and that then creates a self confidence. And

701
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:42.960
in everything I saw with girls, I think that spot on.

702
00:36:43.239 --> 00:36:46.480
I found it interesting to what you said about that

703
00:36:46.840 --> 00:36:51.320
the identity formation and how the cues they pick up

704
00:36:51.400 --> 00:36:56.519
from even family very young about who they are and

705
00:36:56.760 --> 00:36:59.320
you know, she's the funny one, and she's the spot.

706
00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:01.800
When I work with adult who are still carrying these

707
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:06.639
stories and these limitations about what they're capable of and

708
00:37:06.679 --> 00:37:08.519
who they are and what they can do that they've

709
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:12.599
picked up so early from those family messages.

710
00:37:13.079 --> 00:37:18.039
Yeah, one example for your listeners is perhaps how we

711
00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:21.599
label our children in friendship. So parents said to me,

712
00:37:21.800 --> 00:37:24.960
Mum said to me, or mind's the messenger. I hope

713
00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:27.360
mine's not a man girl. Or mine's the boss in

714
00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:31.360
the group, or mine's a goody two shoes. All these labels,

715
00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:33.800
and the psychologists said to me, and this makes sense

716
00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:35.880
that girls lean into those labels.

717
00:37:36.039 --> 00:37:37.280
So when I spoke to.

718
00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:40.400
Girls about their role in the friendship group, they could

719
00:37:40.440 --> 00:37:43.960
describe their role in those terms I'm the shy one,

720
00:37:44.280 --> 00:37:47.199
or I'm in charge, or you know, I carry a

721
00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:51.199
note between groups. They could actually describe themselves in terms

722
00:37:51.239 --> 00:37:53.079
of a role, not as a friend.

723
00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:55.920
And I think we should be quite careful.

724
00:37:55.960 --> 00:38:00.239
We've learned over the years not to say things, not

725
00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:04.199
to label people in greater community. I think that needs

726
00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:07.440
to be brought into the playground. So kids are kids,

727
00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:11.280
they're not you know, necessarily she's the clever one, she's

728
00:38:11.320 --> 00:38:14.400
the sporty one. What does this make that one? She

729
00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:17.280
just feels, especially then at the age of fourteen, that

730
00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:21.039
she's a nobody. She's stuck in the middle of nothing.

731
00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:25.159
And I think girls have to learn that they're enough.

732
00:38:25.599 --> 00:38:29.119
Boys perhaps two, but you know, they are bright and

733
00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:32.480
clever and inquisitive, and they can be the person they

734
00:38:32.519 --> 00:38:36.800
can be without having to be the best at maths

735
00:38:36.920 --> 00:38:38.000
or the best at this.

736
00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:40.599
I think that's massively overrated.

737
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:45.039
I was just thinking back to the body confidence issue,

738
00:38:45.079 --> 00:38:50.599
which is obviously massive. It's always has been with girls

739
00:38:50.639 --> 00:38:53.840
and the feedback that they give to each other. And

740
00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:56.639
I know, you know, my daughter is obviously she's fourteen,

741
00:38:56.760 --> 00:38:59.519
so but even when she was younger, I think when

742
00:38:59.559 --> 00:39:03.039
you see girl, when you see what they post on Instagram.

743
00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:04.880
I think you mentioned this in the book, to the

744
00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:09.800
compliments that come through, which are all about, oh my god,

745
00:39:09.880 --> 00:39:11.800
you're so pretty, you're so cute, I love your outfit,

746
00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:14.320
you're so hot. I wish I looked like you. It's

747
00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:15.960
so appearance based.

748
00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:20.679
Still absolutely, but if you're ten or eleven, or twelve

749
00:39:20.719 --> 00:39:24.239
or thirteen or fourteen, and that's what you're seeing, you

750
00:39:24.320 --> 00:39:26.559
can see how that then builds you.

751
00:39:27.480 --> 00:39:30.039
And so if everyone's saying you're pretty, or that just makes.

752
00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:32.760
You look hot, or you can see how they gain

753
00:39:33.679 --> 00:39:37.440
confidence in that. So when those messages don't come or

754
00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:41.079
no one's saying you're pretty, the impact then of that

755
00:39:41.320 --> 00:39:45.119
is phenomenal, you know, and I think I think that's

756
00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:51.000
pretty harsh. And they also want that response immediately.

757
00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:53.719
There's no instagratification.

758
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:56.320
At one school, they told me how they're taking anxious

759
00:39:56.320 --> 00:39:58.559
girls out of class and trying to teach them to breathe,

760
00:39:58.599 --> 00:40:03.199
and they're saying breathe one to three and out. If

761
00:40:03.239 --> 00:40:05.760
girls can't master it out in two minutes, they start

762
00:40:05.800 --> 00:40:08.480
to panic that they've failed breathing.

763
00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:13.559
For God's sake, But that's the world we're going.

764
00:40:13.599 --> 00:40:17.519
We've now book a holiday on Instagram, we swap a lounge,

765
00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:20.000
we get someone to come and fix the pool or whatever.

766
00:40:20.639 --> 00:40:24.679
We now no longer wait for anything. And you and

767
00:40:24.760 --> 00:40:28.639
I as kids, had to, and there's a sense of

768
00:40:28.760 --> 00:40:34.239
achievement in actually waiting, that sense, whether it's to get

769
00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:39.280
photos developed or to understand a particular maths problem. And

770
00:40:39.320 --> 00:40:43.480
if you don't have that quality that is to wait

771
00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:47.280
and to have patience. I think it's very hard then

772
00:40:47.320 --> 00:40:49.599
to see yourself as successful always.

773
00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:54.400
That's a good tip, finding opportunities for them to have

774
00:40:54.440 --> 00:40:57.519
to wait, making them delay gratification.

775
00:40:57.800 --> 00:41:00.599
Well, the perfect one, and I did it in fourteen,

776
00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:03.400
is get a camera and say, well, just say to

777
00:41:03.440 --> 00:41:05.079
a fourteen year old girl, how.

778
00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:05.440
Do you take it?

779
00:41:05.480 --> 00:41:08.039
How do you think I took a picture at your age?

780
00:41:08.079 --> 00:41:10.159
And you see them go with the cat with a phone.

781
00:41:10.280 --> 00:41:11.239
Now I didn't have a phone.

782
00:41:11.239 --> 00:41:11.760
What did we have.

783
00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:14.199
We had to first of all get a camera. We

784
00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:18.440
had to actually do the lens because it wasn't automatically focusing.

785
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:20.079
Then we took a picture, we had to put it

786
00:41:20.119 --> 00:41:21.039
away for twenty.

787
00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:24.239
Three Other pictures were thirty five before we could even

788
00:41:24.320 --> 00:41:27.440
get it developed, which they have no understanding what that is.

789
00:41:27.559 --> 00:41:28.800
We'd open the door of the.

790
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:31.760
Camera and my favorite line is and then you take

791
00:41:31.800 --> 00:41:33.280
it to the pharmacy.

792
00:41:33.159 --> 00:41:35.079
And girls are looking at you like was it sick?

793
00:41:35.559 --> 00:41:39.239
But we had to wait at least a week often, Well,

794
00:41:39.239 --> 00:41:40.679
in Dolby we did to.

795
00:41:40.719 --> 00:41:42.960
Go back and collect them. But we went back with

796
00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:43.679
two things.

797
00:41:44.039 --> 00:41:47.760
One money because you had to pay for the photographs.

798
00:41:48.119 --> 00:41:52.920
But the other thing was this enormous sense of what

799
00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:56.519
it meant, of expectation, and I think that's been robbed

800
00:41:56.519 --> 00:41:57.199
from our children.

801
00:41:57.239 --> 00:41:58.440
It's been stolen from them.

802
00:41:58.679 --> 00:42:01.960
We've got to find a way of granting that anticipation,

803
00:42:02.599 --> 00:42:05.239
that waiting back to them so that they can have

804
00:42:05.360 --> 00:42:08.760
that terrific feel of going through and not even remember

805
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:10.159
that photo being taken.

806
00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:12.480
And when I look through my photo album now it's.

807
00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:15.159
Those silly ones of red eyes when you've got all

808
00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:19.719
funny smile and you know it's a candid photo that

809
00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:23.280
is so precious. There are no candid photos now. You

810
00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:26.239
know it's pouted. There's a pout on the face, and

811
00:42:26.280 --> 00:42:29.159
the perfect outfit and the perfect hair.

812
00:42:29.639 --> 00:42:31.719
And you know that's kind of sad, isn't it.

813
00:42:31.719 --> 00:42:34.199
Casts It is, but I've been really pleased to see.

814
00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:37.079
It's interesting you bring this up this film. Cameras have

815
00:42:37.159 --> 00:42:41.079
become cool again, and disposable cameras. My daughter had a

816
00:42:41.079 --> 00:42:44.039
birthday party and somebody handed me a disposable camera to

817
00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:46.440
take a photo and she started to explain to me

818
00:42:46.559 --> 00:42:49.159
how to use it, and I was like, you understand,

819
00:42:49.239 --> 00:42:52.480
don't you, because was all I had for most of

820
00:42:52.519 --> 00:42:55.639
my life. She's like, you've got to wind that to

821
00:42:55.960 --> 00:42:59.880
wind the film. Yes, I understand, yes, yeah.

822
00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:01.280
They think why do they like it?

823
00:43:01.320 --> 00:43:03.880
I've noticed this trend and I think it's delightful. But

824
00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:05.159
is it because it's quaint?

825
00:43:05.280 --> 00:43:08.679
Yeah? Is it because they're still taking pictures on their

826
00:43:08.679 --> 00:43:12.280
mobile phone? Maybe you picked vintage a bit like vintage dress.

827
00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:14.920
And yeah, turntables records, final records are back.

828
00:43:15.159 --> 00:43:16.719
Yeah? Absolutely.

829
00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:19.519
And I said to my parents, I said, oh, she

830
00:43:19.559 --> 00:43:21.599
got a film camera for Christmas. You know, she's really

831
00:43:21.599 --> 00:43:23.960
happy about it. I think it's great. And for those

832
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:27.719
reasons that you just said, that delayed gratification. And my

833
00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:30.960
dad said, what, that's a ridiculous idea. Used to cost

834
00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:34.320
us seven hundred dollars to process the PHONEO the film's

835
00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:35.079
from the holiday?

836
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:38.760
Yeah, and you know that is something in terms of disruption,

837
00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:41.719
and we've all had to face disruption all industries. I

838
00:43:41.800 --> 00:43:44.320
thought that when my daughter got some developed because they

839
00:43:44.360 --> 00:43:47.880
made her pay for them when none of them turned out, and.

840
00:43:47.800 --> 00:43:51.239
I thought, you can see, well, that's just not right,

841
00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:52.039
is it? You know?

842
00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:56.599
And so that I think that industry has to probably

843
00:43:56.679 --> 00:43:58.760
come up with a model where if they want to

844
00:43:58.840 --> 00:44:02.000
sell cameras old style cameras, they've got to be able

845
00:44:02.039 --> 00:44:04.360
to do it for a price where children are happy

846
00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:05.360
to get all developed.

847
00:44:06.119 --> 00:44:10.440
Madonna, having spoken to all of those ten year old

848
00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:13.400
girls and got inside their heads, what is it that

849
00:44:13.480 --> 00:44:15.639
they want us to know? We as parents, what do

850
00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:18.920
we need to know about our ten year olds?

851
00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:21.880
Yeah? So I think they want to talk to mum.

852
00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:25.559
And this sounds a bit sexist, but that the most

853
00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:30.480
commonplaces was cooking together, going to a movie together, shopping together,

854
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:34.519
but talking and Mum doing the listening and them doing

855
00:44:34.559 --> 00:44:37.960
the talking with dad. And I asked them this specific question,

856
00:44:38.119 --> 00:44:39.679
what do you want more from mum? What do you

857
00:44:39.679 --> 00:44:40.599
want more from dad?

858
00:44:40.960 --> 00:44:44.199
Dad? It's doing stuff, so whether it's a bike ride

859
00:44:44.320 --> 00:44:46.159
or a walk or jumping in the pool.

860
00:44:46.639 --> 00:44:49.960
So many ten year olds are so excited that dad

861
00:44:50.039 --> 00:44:52.159
has been a home more often in the last year

862
00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:55.039
during COVID. They're probably more harsh on their mum in

863
00:44:55.119 --> 00:44:59.840
many ways, but that and that's a lovely silver lining

864
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:03.199
the cloud of COVID. I hope it remains because that

865
00:45:03.239 --> 00:45:04.480
connection between.

866
00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:06.039
Dad and daughter is gold.

867
00:45:06.519 --> 00:45:10.400
So Dad doing more, Mum listening more. And they won't

868
00:45:10.440 --> 00:45:13.159
ask us, they won't tell us that's what they want,

869
00:45:13.880 --> 00:45:17.000
but there is no doubt even when they're rolling their

870
00:45:17.039 --> 00:45:19.639
eyes and they're slamming their door and they're walking away

871
00:45:19.639 --> 00:45:23.000
from us, they want us to listen to them, give

872
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:25.960
them a hug and say that we understand or we're listening.

873
00:45:27.159 --> 00:45:29.440
Thank you so much for the work that you have

874
00:45:29.559 --> 00:45:32.000
put in and the conversations that you've had to put

875
00:45:32.039 --> 00:45:34.440
this book together. It is a real gem, and I

876
00:45:34.480 --> 00:45:37.440
know that so many parents are going to be thrilled

877
00:45:38.079 --> 00:45:39.920
to get their hands on a copy.

878
00:45:40.159 --> 00:45:41.880
Thanks Cas, Because at the end of the day, we're

879
00:45:41.880 --> 00:45:43.760
all in it together, aren't we. Which is time we

880
00:45:43.800 --> 00:45:47.199
are to bring up these beautiful girls to be the

881
00:45:47.239 --> 00:45:50.880
best that they can possibly be, So I hope it helps.

882
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:55.960
There is no doubt that kids today are living in

883
00:45:56.000 --> 00:45:57.880
a whole different world from the one that we grew

884
00:45:57.960 --> 00:46:00.599
up in, even if you are a younger parent. And

885
00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:02.440
just when we thought we were getting a handle on

886
00:46:02.599 --> 00:46:06.239
managing technology and social media, our kids were faced with

887
00:46:06.360 --> 00:46:09.159
carrying on their education, their friendships, and all of their

888
00:46:09.159 --> 00:46:14.000
activities during a global pandemic. Some Madonna's book Tenager is

889
00:46:14.119 --> 00:46:18.079
full of really solid wisdom, practical advice, And if, like me,

890
00:46:18.239 --> 00:46:20.159
your daughter is a little older now, then I would

891
00:46:20.199 --> 00:46:22.320
also really recommend that you grab a copy of her

892
00:46:22.360 --> 00:46:26.679
last book, Being fourteen. If you enjoyed this episode, please

893
00:46:26.719 --> 00:46:28.320
be sure to leave us a rating and a review.

894
00:46:28.519 --> 00:46:30.639
And I also love reading your messages, so shoot me

895
00:46:30.639 --> 00:46:34.480
a dm over on Instagram. I'm cast Done underscore XO,

896
00:46:34.559 --> 00:46:38.840
where you can email me at helloat caasdone dot com.

897
00:46:38.920 --> 00:46:42.440
Rapy to Happy is presented by castdun produced by Davis Lenski,

898
00:46:42.679 --> 00:46:44.559
Audio production by Darcy Thompson.

899
00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:49.880
Listener