Raising tweens with Rebecca Sparrow

0:02 A listener production. Hi, you're listening to Crappy to Happy, and I'm your host, Cas Dunn. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist, mindfulness meditation teacher, and author of the Crappy to Happy books. In this series, we look at all the factors that might be making you feel crappy and the tools and the techniques that will help you overcome them. In each episode, I introduce you to interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their field, and my hope is that they will help you go from crappy to happy. In today's episode, I'm talking to Rebecca Sparrow, who's an author and columnist, and more recently, she's undertaken to help high school students and their parents navigate the choppy waters of adolescents by going into schools and talking about things like friendship, resilience, and how to have a more positive online experience. Beck and I talked about some of the things that our kids aren't telling us are so that if you're a parent, you will love this episode. But even if you're not, I think you'll find that there's a lot of interesting stuff to take away. Beck. You are an author and a columnist and of course, you're a mother of three these days, though you've created a business around supporting particularly tween and teen girls and helping their parents to have a better relationship with their daughters.

1:25 Is that right? Yeah? Look, probably, I guess. I've been working with tweens and teens since about two thousand and three. Look, I'm really passionate if there's such a thing as that when people have a life purpose, I feel like mine is to help tween and teenage girls have a better experience at school. And then that, in the last I guessed two years has morphed into also me sort of working with the parents, and so I think I feel like I'm a bit of a bridge sometimes between the girls and the moms, if that makes sense, Yeah. For sure, for sure. The reason I was so keen to have you in and have a conversation with you is because on this show we have covered a lot of issues that affect women. You know, We've talked about the perfectionism, the inner critic, body image issues, all of that kind of stuff, And of course we know that a lot of those issues take their route really early on, and as parents, like as mothers who have grappled with those issues, we want something different and better for our kids.

2:24 I guess, you know, we want to be a positive influence, and so I think that there will be a lot of our listeners who will be really keen to hear, you know, or to learn, well, how do we make sure that we give our kids, our daughters especially a different experience or help them to navigate some of these issues which can be they last for a long time once they take home. It's really interesting you say that, because when my last nonfiction book came out, which would be Goodness, three or four years ago. Now, I collected all these anonymous questions from thirteen and fourteen year old girls, and because when I'd go into schools and I started saying to them, I always say, you can ask me anything. And then I realized that the questions that the girls most wanted to ask was one that they were never going to put their hand up and ask in front of their friends.

3:13 So I started saying, get out a piece of paper. If there's one question that you wish that you could ask me without anyone else knowing, write it on this piece of paper, fold it up, and you're going to put it in a bag before you leave the room. Anyway, So I cut along story short, the book came out. I answered all of those questions, and the book came out, and then when I started doing events for that book, moms started coming up to me crying because it had triggered so the questions and the girls asked everything from I'm ugly, so how will I ever get a boyfriend? Why when your parents split up does one parent lose interest in you? I would say sixty percent of the questions were about friendship. I thought they were going to be about dating and crushes, but no, at least sixty percent were about friendship. But I thought was really interesting that the moms who had read the book were getting very emotional about stuff that obviously they had gone through in high school and they wanted a different experience for their girl. So that was really interesting for me. And that's when I think you sort of see a red flag there of like, how do we change that story when we've had a certain experience and what do and maybe we were never taught how to handle something.

4:30 And so I guess one of the questions that I had for you it was, you know, what kinds of things do girls typically ask you? With the benefit of that anonymity. Yeah, you know, what are the things. They struggle with that they're perhaps not asking their parents for help with. Look, I think the biggest one that I have noticed, And certainly they weren't asking me about Instagram or they weren't asking me about Snapchat or phones necessarily, because when you think about it, the issues that happen, they are platforms. Like in the eighties, I would never have said to my mom, I'm having issues with the telephone right because it's not it's not the vehicle that's necessarily being used.

5:13 It's what's going down. Sure, And it comes down to friendship stuff. So whether you are being excluded on Instagram by your group of friends, or you're being excluded in real life at school at the lunch out, it's the same issue. I did another event two months ago, and this time I had girls who were aged probably eight to twelve, and I just took questions from the audience. Friendship. Wow. It was. How do I know if my friends really like me? Why when I finally have gone to the same school as my best friend and now she won't talk to me? Why has the girl who's my best friend betrayed me?

5:55 I I'm with a group of friends. But I don't want to be with these friends anymore. I want to be with this other group of friends, but they don't want me. How do I get them to want me? So it's really interesting, and I think we've got to remember that our kids aren't born knowing how to navigate friendship. It's something that you learn, like you just you don't. You're not born knowing what a good friendship looks and feels like unless somebody teaches you, you know, unless you have these conversations and your and your your mum in particular, is modeling it for you with her friendships. So I think that somewhere along the way with this generation of parents, myself included, we have we've dropped to the ball cass or we have forgotten how to connect with our kids.

6:40 But there's some disconnect here happening where we're not having some big conversations. What I've that's really interesting about that is how you say you know? Because for parents, if you talk to parents about what are the challenges you have with parenting tweens and teens or just kids generally, Oh gosh, you know social media and how do we manage that and how do we put boundaries around screen time and you know, all of that sort of stuff. But you're quite right. From a kid's perspective, that's just part of the world that they live in. So that's something that's new and different for us. Yeah, but you're right, it's just a different manifestation, potentially different platform. Yeah. For the same parents are saying they're on their phones too much, so we aren't sat Well, that's exactly right.

7:22 So the kids aren't saying I mean some of them said. You know, I had a couple who said, when it's a good time to have social media or a phone. I had one of my friend's daughters say to me, can you convince mum to let me have you know, Instagram or whatever. Because all my friends have. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, so I've had that. But by and large, the questions are about about friendship and navigating that. And I think, look. It's tough. I'm forty six, and it can be tough with friendships, let alone when you are you know, ten, eleven and twelve. And I think that when you are when you are bad age in thirteen and fourteen the great. But I'll speak for girls. I don't know as much for the boys.

8:11 But when you're a girl, the great love of your life is not some person that you've got to crush on down the road. It is often your best friend. And that is a rollercoaster at times of a relationship. And what I say to parents now is that it is in twenty nineteen, it is not bad grades which are going to derail you right now. In the eighties, when I was at high school in Brisbane, if you got if you bombed out at school, you repeat it, you know, or you repeated you twelve or you you know, went to some other study college to improve your marks. In twenty nineteen, there are a zillion pathways right because because high school doesn't work for a whole heap of kids, for a whole heap of reasons, of stuff that's going on in their life or whatever, and so things can go pair shaped and there are now so many ways that you can It might take you a bit longer, but you can find a way to still get back to what you want to do and improve your marks.

9:12 I don't think in twenty nineteen it is we need to be obsessing so much about grades, and it is getting into bad friendships and relationships which derails kids. That's what I see. I think when and the damage that can be done to how you feel as a human being by the stuff that is said to you or done to you when you're a teenager can last a lifetime. Grades can be fixed. And I'm not saying you know, I say to students when I say this, Tom, don't go home and go. Begger's birds said, grades don't better. You know, that's not what I'm saying, because the reason you want to do well at the end of your twelve so you've got options. Yes, right, that's what you want. You want options, but it's not going to be the bill and end all. If you don't get the grade that you want to get. There are aw but it's that friendship now. And I think you know, our kids, they're more sophisticated. Are we seeing a lot more kindness?

10:07 But I think it can be a bit brutal out there for our kids. I think so too. And well, I mean, we know for a fact there's research that says that increased social media use is linked to anxiety and depression, especially in young people. And what we see even in the adult world is this kind of empathy deficit when we're all behind our screens when you don't have a real person in front of you, Like, is the increased communication via technology eroding our capacity I guess to have those real personal connections and kindness. I think so. And I think that. I mean, there is some research that I think I read that even when you are holding a device, that your empathy rate drops. Yes, it does, purely because distraction.

10:55 You're not as tuned into what the person in front of you is feeling. I mean, somebody wants said to me, the moment you divorce opinion from identity, there's a problem. And of course that's exactly what we have handed to kids. I mean, I can't. Tell you the number of teenage girls that I know who, despite knowing better, have signed up on Instagram to all kinds of accounts where they get rated now, you know, because they are allured in by this idea of I'll tell you if you're hot, right, that's what and that is the message that shudder, yeah right. So and these are twelve and thirteen year old girls. And then if your child does do something wrong or inappropriate, which, of course, when you know, I say to kids, your job description when you're a kid is to screw up, like, of course you are.

11:49 Of course you're going to make bad judgment calls. That's how it goes. And we're handing them all this technology which has the ability to blow up their own lives, the lives of other people. I've got friends, you know, my friends in their foodies are making appalling judgment calls as if a thirteen year old isn't going to do something horrendous using social media. And so then I think that there's all this judgment on the parents as well, of like, oh well, I can't. Believe your child did that. So it's really it's isolating. So I think we were all these parents no guidance, completely panic, don't know who to talk to without being judged by the other moms at. The school gate.

12:31 So I think it's really tricky, and so I think that we need to you know, if we want our kids to be kind, we need to model that. We want our kids to spend less time on their devices and have better boundaries in place, We need to model that. And school parents, moms in particular, need to have each other's back, and we have to accept the fact that our kids are going to screw up. It's a given yes, right, and so take that kind of shame away from it of you know, what did your kid do? And it's it's not about the kids growing up, it's about the parents' response and how may handle it. I agree, That's what I think. And going back to that friendship thing, I've had the experience where, for example, if my daughter is having issues with a friend at school, and I'm thinking of when she was probably younger, yeah, like I see my role as being supportive of her and also being an advocate for her. But sometimes if there's a real issue, like if another child has treated your child badly, for example, yes, we need to teach them the skills to manage their friendships and to stand up for themselves and all of that kind of stuff. But we as adults need to be able to have conversations with other parents and not feel like, you know, my am I if people going to think that I'm acting like my child's a precious snowflake, or am I going to do they think that I'm attacking their child? You know. And I've been in the situation where I've had to talk to other parents and say, this is what happened at school all today and I

14:01 know I'm only hearing one side of it, but I wanted, you know, to make you aware. And I know other friends of mine have had those conversations and they've been really harshly treated by the other parents. I've been fortunate that, you know, my friends, my parent friends have been really happy to know that and have used that to find out what's going on with their own child, and it's been really positive. But I think even you know, when you talk about nobody gives us the skills to manage friendships or have those conversations, like even as adults, sometimes we struggle with that. Oh one hundred percent. And look, it's really interesting. I'm wondering now whether I get more emails now from school moms than I do from kids in terms of wanting to just vent or speak to somebody about you know, some of them sound quite traumatized about the fact that something's happened with their child, and then they they have then been ostracized by a parent group, or they have tried to talk to other parents and the other parents have kind of not believed it, shut them down, given them the silent treatment, and just kind of blocked them.

15:12 And I think it's really hard. And I have said to my daughters, the moms of my daughter's close friends at. School, that I want to hear it. Yes, so if my daughter is behaving badly, or my boys too much younger. But if my daughter is behaving badly, if she's doing whatever, I want to be told about it so I can work through it with her, you know, and work out what's going on. So I'm not someone who doesn't want to hear stuff. I want to hear stuff. I want to hear stuff because that's the only way. If I'm not all made aware of stuff, I can't work through it with her. And they're the same. So but it's hard because for some that's okay if you happen to get on with the parents of.

15:57 Your child's friends. But you know, you don't know, you don't always, you don't always, and it's these holes. It's so tricky. It's the whole thing is really hard. Some In one particular situation, I had to have this tough conversation and it actually when the mum came back to me, she was obviously really happy to know what was going on, but then she also shared with me, look, she's having a tough time because we've got we're having marriage issues, like there's problems at home, and that then gave me the perspective to be able to help my daughter to support her friend. So there's so much benefit to be gained from being non defensive, condication and opening up.

16:40 Yeah, exactly, And so I think I'm a big believer in that. And so I think it is our jobs to our job to advocate for our children, and I think as much as possible, you know, it's great to sort of give them a bit of guidance to sort stuff out by themselves, but if they can't or something continuing, we have to step up. And if that means sometime to. You either talk to a teacher or talk to other parents, I mean, you make that call, but you need to do that because these are our kids, and I just think we don't want to see anything spiral out of control. And the one thing that I always say to my daughter is we will make a plan together. You know that if she tells me stuff that then I'm not gonna she doesn't have to worry that I'm going to suddenly.

17:22 Go right, that's it. I'm bringing up these people. And she's like, don't do it. You know, so I'll say to her, let's work out a plan of how we should handle this and what you're comfortable with, and you know what's going to work, because you know she's had her own issues. I mean, it's it's tricky. Some of the stuff that I see happening in with older or even younger primary school girls is brutal. It's brutal, you know, And I think, I mean, obviously, we want to make our kids resilient, and we want them to develop that grit and we want them you know, I said to my daughter.

18:04 School, like life, there are people who are jerks. There are jerks everywhere in life, and you have to learn how to navigate them. And I said, at different times through primary school or high school, people are going to say you've got stupid hair, or your ears are weird, or I hate your mum's car. And so I said, rather than fall to pieces in those moments, you need to find a way. You've got to find a way in life to navigate around those people. So those people in life who are jerks that wouldn't necessarily classomers bullying, those people who are just mean, mean, right, and they are everywhere in the world. They just are. I wish it wasn't true, but the fact is that they are, and so we have to equip our kids, I think with learning how to navigate around those people.

18:49 I think what is much tougher is when the mean and cruel behavior is coming from within a friendship group. And that happens time and time and time again where and I will just go with girls for the moment. Girls are so desperate to be part of a group. They are willing to be treated badly in order to still be in it, you know, And when you think about that, it's crazy, you know. And I talked to them about the fact that you need to have high standards for yourself, but they are so desperate for that sense of belonging that they're willing to be humiliated within that group and treated badly just to be part of it. It's heartbreaking. It is heartbreaking. So I think that you know, you can say to yourself, oh, well, this person who said an awful comment to me today, all everyone knows that they're mean, and you can brush it off. But I think when the cruel behavior is coming from within your own group of friends, that's really tough.

19:46 And so that comes back to me I guess talking to kids about identifying what a good friendship is in the first place. Is a good friendship look and feel like you know, and who's part of your tribe you know? And if you if your closest friends at school are routinely putting you down, humiliating you, leaving you out, that. Is not friendship. That is not a friendship. And so you've got to sort of think about is this what I want for myself and learning how to remove yourself from those situations. A lot of this comes back to having that relationship with your child. We as parents all want to have that relationship with our child where they are comfortable enough to share with us and they're not fearful. So that setting that up, yeah, you know, we're talking about tweens here and teens. Yeah, setting that up starts much earlier than that. Yeah.

20:44 Well, I sort of say to parents that if you want to have a great relationship with your teenager, it starts when they're in primary school. You don't start working on having a great relationship with your fourteen year old when they're fourteen. Necessarily, I think you've got to put the ground lay that foundation really early, really. Early, And so I think, you know, it's about connection. And I read somewhere the other day that we are the generation of parents, or there's no generation before us who have spent so much time in person, face to face with our children, more than any other Like I'd get home from school in the eighties and I was out the door to a friend's house, or down the road or riding my bike. We are with our children more than any other generation. But we're also the most distracted, right, And so somewhere we've got to find a better middle ground, because I think we're all exhausted because we're expected to We are expected to be with our children and watching them all of the time. Like if I sent my kids now down the road to the massive park at the end of our road, for sure there'd be a parent going, well, where's your mum? Yes, you know, because we can't win, can we like where's your mum? Why isn't there an adult here looking after you guys?

21:58 Right? Yeah, So then I have to be with them all the time. So then I'm like, God, I'm with them all the right. So then we're all addicted to our friend, our phones, rights were on our phone, so we're distracted so I think a lot of it is about connection and giving our kids our time and we don't have to be stirring at our children all of the time. Of course you're allowed to be on your phone, but it's finding that middle ground and putting that work in. One of the. Things that so in the course that I do with parents, it's the lighthouse plan. Is one of the most popular tips I give is the journal is starting up a mother daughter or a mother son or whatever it is journal, so that I mean, I remember, I remember when I was twelve, thirteen, fourteen, there were things that I desperately wanted to ask my mum, will say to my mum, but just did not want to say it to her face, you know. So sometimes I'd say through the bathroom door when she was in the bathroom, or you know, when she's driving, but I just didn't want to make eyeicon with her. And the idea of this journal is that you set up a journal between you and your child.

23:07 And the rule is that if it appears on your bedside table, it means they've written something to you that they wanted to ask you or discuss, and then you can write back and that. It's not what it's like fight club. What is written in the journal stays in the journal, and that you don't discuss it in person, you know. And it's just another tool to give parents as a way of I guess, communicating and connecting with their kids. So I think it's little things. It's I think what we need as parents is a toolbox, yes, of different things, because different things are going to work well for different kids and different families. And I think we just need a.

23:47 Better, bigger toolbox with ideas of how to connect with our kids and have those lines of communications and we've got a strong bond so that when they are thirteen or fourteen and they got something that's a much bigger concern, they've got something that's a much bigger worry, more furious worry that they need to tell us about, they're going to still feel that they can come to us. Yeah. I love the journal idea. I saw that on your I think you did a Facebook post just recently about that, and I immediately dug out a brand new journal that I had at home and went and talked to my daughter about it, and she loved it as well, because from as early as she was able to, you know, read and write. Her preferred method of communication with me when she's had something to talk to me about has been in writing. And she would write a little note on a piece of paper. From when she was seven, seven eight, and she would write a little note on a piece of paper. It was usually if there was something that she was upset about that I'd been a bit harsh, or you know, she was upset with me, or if there was something she really wanted. And in grade three they do persuasive writing. So she started writing me this persuasive It was awesome. It's really making a solid case. And she would write it and fold it and she'd put it somewhere and she would let me know that it was there for me. I love that. Yeah, And so she she just did that intuitively herself. And so when I saw your idea about the journal, I thought, that's perfect. So far, it doesn't have anything in it

25:19 because it was only a week ago or something, but it's beside her bed, it's there for her. And the other thing that I love about that is that then it's bound and its documented almost docum. I love their journal, their journey through their childhood, and I love that too. And I loved it. Then they have our handwriting. Yeah, just little things of our advice to them. I think it's really lovely. Look, my daughter had hers for a year. I think I gave it to when she was about eight, and then the first time I saw it turn up. I was like, oh my god, there's that journal. What's in there? You know? And then you think, why didn't you just come and speak to me? But then you open it up and it's just terrific. It's just terrific as another tool to use, And that's that's what I think we need. I just think we need lots of different tools to sort of open up the lines of communication and so that they know.

26:12 We want to be their lighthouse, don't we. We want to be their safe space that they can come to and know that they can tell us stuff and work, because I look, don't we all we want them to come to us rather than for sure, you know, school friends for sure, who are telling them probably really dodgy information. But we have to also understand that sitting down and having a conversation is probably not always going to get us that communication saying tell me, you know, is there anything on your mind at. The moment, So giving them other ways to be able to share safe ways that they can communicate. It's really important, and I think we forget cassette, you know, the typical thing. And for some kids they do they get in the car after school and just go and say everything that's happened. But I know, you know a few years when I worked in offices and whatever, and you'd finish your day and then someone, you know, you come home and some would say, how's your day, and you're so tired you just like I just can't even articulate, you know, just like it was fine, because it's just I don't even want you know, I've just left. Don't make me go back there and now recount everything. So I think this is why as well, that quite often it's when I'm tucking my daughter into bed and the lights are off that then she all the stories come out as well of what happened at school because it's dark again, she doesn't have necessarily have to make eye contact with me. Enough time has passed since she got home that she's kind of processing sort of what went down in whatever English.

27:43 Or pee or music. So I think that's another thing is that don't expect as soon as kids get if you happen to be home as soon as your kids get home and they go It was fine at. School because because think of what it's like for us. Sometimes you just don't want to. Sometimes I've just left work, I don't want to now and necessarily be going back into it. I just want some breathing spaces totally, I open up. So I think we've got to sort of keep all of that in mind as well, and if. We you know, one thing that comes up for me often what I hear from people as a psychologist also is like I can't get to sleep at night because as soon as I lay down in bed and the lights are at, all of the day's issues are at the top of my mind. And yes, it's happening for adults, of course, it's happening for kids, yes as well. Like suddenly in the quiet space without the distraction and there's no more TV and dinner and homework and all the rest of it, and it's just me and my thoughts.

28:32 Yes than everything that's true service. Yes, So I think that's another thing is we're all busy. You know a lot of people have got you know, you've got kids, You've also. Got a job. So I'm not saying we all need to just be obsessively, you know, open and available all of the time, sort of watching our children with nothing of our own, but I think we have to try and do a better job of making ourselves emotionally of our lie to our kids and in whatever way that looks like. And so that means things like, okay, so at nighttime when you go into their room to say good night and whatever, don't take your phone with you. But you know, little things like that of like maybe don't take your phone in with you. You know, because when you're talking to somebody and they have a phone in their hand, you automatically feel like you're not their priority because the moment that phone beeps, they're going to be looking at it. So put your phone down. Or when your child wants to open up to you, put your phone down and give your child your full attention.

29:35 And those little. Things, I mean they sound it's not you know, it's not rocket science, is it. But somewhere along the line we have forgotten. And it's because, of course, all of these devices are highly addictive. Yes, they are highly highly addictive, and the phone companies have zero and social media platforms have zero motivation for wanting us to ever put our phones down. They do not want us to do that. They want us to always be looking and always be scrolling because our eyeballs or what is for sale. They are selling our eyeballs, right, So they're not motivated to help us. So we have got to start thinking refusing to be manipulated and just putting the phones down and making sure we are giving our kids attention and focus and just on that.

30:22 It's not even having a phone in your hand that reduces trust and intimacy and report. It's just having a phone on the table. If you're having a conversation or a coffee with a friend, if there's a phone on. The table, there you go, that's enough. Yep. They have to be out of sight. Otherwise we know subconsciously, we know that that potentially you're gone as soon as that thing, Yes makes it because it's complete fomo. This is why they say, students, if you try and study with your phone, even if it's switched off in your bedroom, just being able to see it out of the corner of your eye is what am I missing out on? That phone represents everything that's going on in the outside world. What am I missing out on and you study will take you longer. So we need to have that separation of our social media habits with.

31:15 Well our studies, certainly for students, but also with our relationships. It's kind of, you know, there's the blur. There's too much of a blur happening, and I think we need to take a bit of control back, I guess is what i'd say, because you know, I tend to say to parents, you've got to remember that smartphones and social media are like white ants, like termites, eating into the stuff that's really important. So things like family rituals and traditions where we're all going out for Grandma's birthday breakfast, or we're all doing Sunday we always have a Sunday roast or whatever the moment. You continually let phones into those moments, it just eats away at these great family pillars.

31:56 I think. So we need to be better with the boundaries. I think when to put put the devices down. I completely agree, and I know and that has to start with us as adults. I think I agree because where the word where is bad? I totally agree with you. We've got to you know, we're setting the tone with everything. We're setting the tone with what good friendship looks like. We're setting the tone with body image, body image, resilience, everything. So you know, you can lecture kids and put them in front of documentaries and whatever else, but whatever we're doing is setting the tone of how our kids are going to think that I think you know what's behavior.

32:38 Yes, totally, totally. So you know that great. Love parenting. That's awesome, so easy, I. Got it nailed. I want to go back to the friendship thing just briefly and mention that there's you know, bullying is rife. It's a parent's worst night man. Actually, you know, the kids that are taking their own lives as a result of bullying, like it sends shivers up and down our spine. There is research that having a best friend is a buffer, yes, against bullying. And I have had parents. I don't do a lot of counseling work with kids, but I have certainly had adolescent and child clients in the past, and I've had sometimes parents say to me, I think she's just too fixated on this one friend, like she's just I feel like she needs to broaden her friendship circle because she's just really stuck on this one best friend, and I've had to say to parents, yes, it's great to have a circle of friends, but it's really really beneficial to have a best friend, yes, and so encourage that not to be exclusion of other friendship.

33:50 No, no, no, that's right. And I think you know, whether you have a tribe at school of for mates and you know you all adore each other, or whether you've got one all you need is one, you know, one person who's got your back. That's the key, who's got your back, that's it. In fact, my daughter and her very best friend from primary school have ended up at different high schools, and that was kind of devastating at the time, but I think it's actually turned out to be really positive because they still see each other all the time on the weekends, but they've got their separate school stuff going on. I kind of think it's ideal. I have to say, yeah, it's been great. Yeah, because I think it just gives you that person that you can hang out with on weekends or school holidays who doesn't know all of them what went you know, I think we can get really caught in a school bubble, and I think having a break from that bubble and hanging out with someone.

34:39 I know. Yes, things can get spread on social leada and kids can find out anything, but it's not the same as just you can just feel trapped in a bit claustrophobic, sometimes with the same people all of the time. I mean, just let's cut our kids some slack and remember, it's like being stuck in a country town for years. They're going to this place. They're with these people for whatever it is, six seven, eight hours a day, depending on what they're doing, same people. You know, they've got some kids there who are jerks to them, and some of the stuff that goes on in schools we wouldn't tolerated as adults. We would leave the job right and go, I can't stand these people. This is not the culture for me. I'm leaving our kids, don't.

35:21 We're like, off you go, you'll be. Fine, Yeah, don't we And we kind of expect them to sort of suck it up. They've got none of the life schools that we have as adults, and so. There they are every day, seeing the same people. Trapped in Wandon Valley from like grade seventy, year twelve. I mean, some of them are there from prep to year twelve with some schools, and so I think having you know, and outside people out at the bubble is always a good thing to kind of hang out, you know, different opinions, different ideas. They didn't see what happened in English when you didn't get a great mark, and you know, I embarrassed yourself when you're doing your speech or whatever, you know, and it's just it's like a little mental health break hanging out with people that aren't in the bubble, the school bubble. So I think I would always encourage to try and have those things, and I think it's ideal. Actually, one of my daughter's closest friends that her mum and I are very close friends, and they know in a mother's group together and they've known each other their whole lives.

36:18 And my friends said, do I know we should put the girls in the same high school. I was like, no, no, we don't want to do that because we want them to have each other outside of these school worlds. So they've got each other to kind of vent too. It's a safe person event too, doesn't know everyone at school. So I think that's a good idea. Yeah, back, I think. In the work that I've done with parents, and to be honest, not so much with this age group. I'm more just a parent myself as opposed to a psychologist with this age group. But I did do a lot of work in private practice with parents of young children and postnatal depression, that kind of stuff, and so my expertise was really around that early childhood delopment stuff and one thing, and I think a lot of that is also really relevant to this twein goods. So one thing that I would say to parents at that stage was, it can be really helpful to understand what's going on in your child's brain right now, because you're looking at their behavior and trying to manage their behavior without necessarily knowing what's driving it. And as soon as you would explain to people that, for example, between the ages of two and four, there is an explosion of growth and development in the limbic system, which of course is the emotional center of the brain, and suddenly these little children are overwhelmed with emotions, big feelings they can't handle. They don't have the words to tell you what they're feeling, they don't have the capacity the emotional regulation to manage them, and then they're being punished for it. So really we're

37:51 expecting of them. Yes, you know, qualities and skills and you know stuff that they literally do not possess that age cognitively, verbally, all of the rest of it emotionally. So a lot of people attribute teenage behavior and emotions and outbursts and stuff to hormones. There's a lot of oh, she's hormonal, or oh all of that, and in fact, people don't realize that there is also another huge leap in brain development at this time in their lives, and a lot of teenage behavior, typical teenage kind of behaviors, is not driven by hormones. It's driven by brain development. See that's interesting.

38:32 And I think if you're able to then apply that logic and the science behind it, it can maybe make you a little bit more compassionate exactly exactly. And I see the relief on parents. I used to see the relief on parents' faces, and they'd say, oh, and they would just suddenly become so much more patient and tolerant that it would change the way they parented, It would change the way they disciplined, for example, little kids. And I think think that parents of tweens and teens when we're all tearing our hair out because she's you know, slamming doors, or she's not talking to me, or he's doing this, or he's in his room grunting or whatever he's doing. Yeah, Like, if we can understand what's going on for them cognitively, yes, then it can really help because.

39:20 You know what it is, cass. You're not taking it personally exactly. In fact, that's a great point because you start going, oh, actually they're doing this because blah blah blah, not because they think that I suck as or whatever. I'm not a ship parent. Yes, yep. So, Beck, we've talked about some of the toolkit that we need to have more effective communication and relationships. I love the journal. What else have you got for us? Okay, I've got some good ones. This is one that I was taught by John O. Nicholas, who founded reachout dot org dot au, Australia's largest online mental health organization for young people. So he said to me, when instead of saying to kids all the time.

40:04 How is your day? Are you okay? How are you feeling about school? You know? Yeah? Yeah, so he said, ask them instead to write it on a scale of one to ten. So he said, because kids don't have always have all the words to articulate their feelings. And this is also true for people who've gone through trauma or grief, anyone that you're wanting to check on. Instead of saying how are you, which is like where do I start? Your brain goes where do I start? I don't know how to explain to you if you say to them on a scale of one to ten, like one being the worst ever, in ten being fabulous, where are you? So then if your child says I'm about a six, right, then you can say to them, okay, so how do we get you to an eight?

40:46 What do we need to do? And then also if they can give you a number, it's so easy to be able to say I'm an eight today or I'm feeling like a four today. Then as a parent, you'll notice more if the number keeps going down. True. So I think that's a good one. I think trying to have at least one, you know, dinner maybe at the table with the kids a week, is a great way to get a snap shots. I mean, I know it's hard, and ideally we'd say have dinner every night together as a family. Let's be realistic about it, realistically with kids with activities and parents working on it. But if you can have some kind of a weekly meal, whether it's a lunch on a Sunday or whatever, you'll also start to notice if your kids are they not mentioning some friends that they used to mention all the time anymore. It just can give you a better snapshot of being able again to get a picture of where they are. And another great tip that I think is the idea of when we're trying to connect with our kids, and so often with our kids, we're like, come and do this with me, or you should be doing this, or you know, I think you'd enjoy this over here.

41:54 Like we often pick activities that we like or we think they should like. So what I would say is. Go into your child's world. So if they really love, even if it's a PlayStation game, or if it's a certain series of books that they're reading or a TV series maybe your daughter's in Johanna, Montana, or they're on Netflix or whatever it is, sit down and watch it with them, you know, go into their world with them and experience what they love. And they will, because so often kids will. If you say to your kids, particularly particularly tweens. Oh you know, can. I watch that with you? Their faces will light it.

42:34 They love it, they absolutely love it. And so I think that we need to make more of that effort of going, you know what, I want to understand what do you love so much about Katie Perry or Zendea or whoever, and just go into their world with them. And again, it's then becomes a thing that you can you know, you might end up enjoying it. Maybe you then have a weekly date where you watch a TV show or you build lego together or whatever it is. But again, that's another moment that you get to share. My daughter and I started watching Riverdale together. There you go, and that was our thing. And she's mad at me at the moment because season three came out and I was so busy with the book last year and the podcast and all of the rest of it that I'm behind.

43:15 And she reminds me constantly, Mum, you need to catch up. I'm five episodes ahead of you exactly. But then and then it becomes something you get to talk about. Yeah, you know, you get to. Discuss what's happened in episodes, or she'll say to you, you know, this is already you're not gonna believe what's happened to this character. So whatever it is, I don't know. I think that's important is that we try and get in their work, try and remember what it was like being a tween and a team. Definitely cut them some slack and meet them where they are. And I think also. Respecting them as individuals, because I think as parents we often can tend to assume like we know better, or we're used to being kind of the boss and the authority, and as they start developing that sense of their own identity and opinions and preferences. My daughters twelve, and she now will not wear a dress, and I see the most beautiful dresses and I say, you look amazing in that.

44:06 Why don't you? Mum? I don't want to wear a dress. Okay, So I have to back off, like that's that's where she's at, and I'm not going to force her to wear a dress exactly. I think that's so true. It's about sort of respecting who they are and they are not us, no, you know, And I think that's something that we all confront at some point, that the things that we love or the things that we're good at or whatever. That these kids are their own own people, and our job is not to mold them in our image. And you know, where we want them to be the same as us, is in maybe core values of kindness and respect. But everything else.

44:46 Is is you know, up for grabs, Like they get to sort of work out what their interests are and what the music that they love or movies or you know, political beliefs or any of that's exactly, and we just have to kind of help guide them. But respect it, respect it. And I would add to that to respecting their privacy totally. Oh, you know, even coming here today and knowing that we were discussing this topic and I didn't know what things we might be discussing, but if there are a few things I actually checked with her if this comes up, are you comfortable if I talk about this and gave her the decision making authority over what could be discussed about her? And I think that's really important. And I see parents disrespect their child privacy.

45:36 So do I And there yeah, I and I just sort of think, you know, first of all, we worry so much about a kid's digital footprint. Well, let me tell you it's long before a kid gets on mobile phone, the parents set it up for them. Yes, so there's that, and most parents have maybe done the right thing. But I have seen parents over the last ten years who've posted the most horrifically embarrassing photos of their tweens that I've just thought, there is no child who's going to thank you that that is now online online. But also being really careful with what we share about them, even in conversation, I agree, and I think that it's interesting.

46:20 I was listening I'm friends with the author Madonna King, and she brought up the book Fathers and Daughters recently, and she said, one of the reasons girls often like talking to their dads about their problems, is they not it doesn't go anywhere. Yeah, isn't that interesting? Talk to your mum and it gets work. Yeah. And I thought, oh, that's so true though, And again I can see why mums are doing that, because we're all scramp going help me. But I think that there is a line and we've got to work out privacy. And obviously, as you said, I do a lot on with my Facebook page of talking about all kinds of things in life, but I'm really careful about what I would share about my daughter, and I would never share anything that she wasn't comfortable with, and I try and keep it to a minimum to respect her privacy.

47:12 So I think that's a big one. And even if even if Annabelle had said to me today, which she did, actually like you know, that'd be fine. That'd be fine, They'd be fine. Just the fact that I asked her, in the fact that she knows that I asked her, that sends a really strong message because that I will respect her. Also, that is modelingly this idea of consent right of what it looks like, so that she can apply that also to friendships and future relationships of you told me this, Are you okay if I share it with that's important. See, there's all it's layered. But I think it comes back to this idea that as parents, we set the tone, yes, and we want it to be the right tone, and we're not always going to get it right. I screw up all the time, and there's no thing as perfect parenting.

47:55 No it's not. But but I think it's just being a bit more mindful of some of this stuff. Yeah, for sure. Rebecca Sparrow, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us today. Oh thanks, CAUs, it was great to be here. I think we can all agree that parenting is the hardest job there is and helping our kids to survive and thrive during adolescens can be tricky and challenging. So thank goodness we have someone like Beck who is so willing to share her wisdom, which she has done in her online program, the Lighthouse Plan, and she's also put together a Secrets for Surviving High School, which is perfect for our tweens. If you would like to find out more about Beck's online programs, head to Rebecca Sparrow dot com.

48:39 We love hearing from you, so if you love this show, please give it a rating and a review on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts, or get in touch with me personally hello at castdone dot com. Also, if you're interested in the Crap At a Happy book, which I've just released, it's available for order and the link is in the show notes, or you can come to my website cast done dot com. In the next episode, I'm talking to doctor Nicki Goldstein, who's a sexologist and a relationship expert. Ah, it was a fun one. It went some places I was not expecting and I think you'll enjoy it. Rappy to Happy is presented by Cast Darn, produced by Davis Vilenski, Audio production by Darcy Thompson. Listener