Aug. 29, 2021

Self-Compassion with Dr Kristin Neff: Part One

Self-Compassion with Dr Kristin Neff: Part One
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Self-Compassion with Dr Kristin Neff: Part One
Self-Compassion with Dr Kristin Neff: Part One
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Season 6 Personal Growth & Healing Mindfulness & Acceptance

In this episode, Cass talks to Dr Kristin Neff, who is a pioneer in the field of self-compassion. Dr Neff shares how her discovery of Buddhist philosophy including mindfulness and compassion helped her get through a difficult time in her life and how that led her to studying and measuring self-compassion as part of her research as a psychologist. She explains why we struggle to be kind to ourselves and how we can all benefit from learning and applying the skill of self-compassion. This is the first of two conversations with Dr Kristin Neff. To connect with Kristin: www.self-compassion.org
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Transcript
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A listener production.

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This is Crappita Happy and I am your host, Cas Doun.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist and mindfulness meditation teacher

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and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In

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this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent

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people who are experts in their field and who have

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something of value to share that will help you feel

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less crappy and more happy. Today, I am so excited

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to bring you a conversation with a woman whose work

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I have long admired and which has had a huge

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impact on me personally and professionally. Doctor Christin Neff is

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a pioneer in the field of self compassion. During her

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final year of graduate school, while she was studying to

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be a psychologist, she became interested in Buddhism and began

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practicing meditation, and this was also when she first was

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introduced to this idea of compassion, and particularly self compassion. Later,

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while she was doing her postdoc work, she decided to

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conduct her research on self compassion, which is a central

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construct in Buddhist psychology, but it's one that hadn't yet

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been really studied empirically. She went on to create a

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scale to measure self compassion and has developed a whole

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lot of practices that we can use in our own

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lives to help us grow our own level of self compassion. Now,

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the reason I'm so passionate about this topic is because

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being kind to yourself, particularly when things aren't going well,

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is something that.

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We're not very good at. We typically default to self

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criticism and that can have really significant, painful, and very

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real consequences to our physical and mental health. So doctor

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Neff explains why we do this, how we are wired

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for this self criticism, and importantly, how we can stop

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doing it. The most exciting thing for me is that

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this is the.

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First of two conversations that I'm having with doctor Kristin Nef.

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In this chat, we're really looking at the fundamentals of

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self compassion, and next week we'll be diving into a

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new idea of fierce self compassion and why women in

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particular can use self compassion to protect ourselves and reclaim

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our power and our voice. Today, here is my first

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of two conversations with doctor Kristin Nef. Doctor Kristin Nef,

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it is my absolute pleasure and honor to have you

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on the Crappy to Happy Podcast today. Thank you so

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much for making the time.

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Oh thanks for having me, Cas, I'm really happy to

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be here with you.

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In my mind, you are the pioneer of this whole

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concept of self compassion and bringing self compassion from the

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sort of Buddhist philosophy into Western science and making it

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very real and relevant and practical to all of us.

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And I use it a lot in my work with women,

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So which is why I'm so thrilled to be able

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to talk to you directly. Let's just get to definitions best.

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So what what is self compassion?

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Right? So self compassion is basically just compassion turned inward. Right,

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So what is compassion, Well, it's in the Latin passion

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means to suffer, come, means with So it's a way

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of being with suffering. And so when we're with the

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suffering of others, there's a sense of warmth, of care

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and concern. You know, we're present with them, and we

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also have this desire, this impulse to help in some way,

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and so it's exactly the same thing with self compassion.

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Again that turned inwards. So it's a desire to help

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ourselves to be well, to alleviate our suffering. To be

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there for ourselves and kindness, acceptance, and support. And I'm

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interested for you to share.

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How did you first come across this idea of self

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compassion and realize how important it was? Right?

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Well, So it was my last year of graduate school.

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I was going to University of California at Berkeley, and

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basically I was a basket case, right. I'd just got

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a divorce and it was really messy divorce, feeling a

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lot of shame, a lot of inadequacy, a lot of

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a sense of failure. And I was also under a

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lot of pressure and stress about my studies. So I

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was about to finish up my PhD with absolutely no

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prospect of a job, right after seven years of devoting

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my life. And so I thought I had heard that

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mindfulness meditation was good for stress. And believe it or not,

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it was Berkeley. I don't know if you know about Berkeley,

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but it's like a hippie town and there was there

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was like meditation groups everywhere, and just down the street

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from me was a meditation group that taught in the

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tradition of a Vietnamese zen teacher called Tikna Han. So

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I went to the group. You know, I didn't really

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know what to expect, but they were Buddhists, so I

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thought they would talk, you know, about mindfulness, and I

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also kind of expected they would talk about compassion, because

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you know, Buddhists talk about compassion. But what really surprised

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me is the woman leading the group talked primarily about

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self compassion, about how we needed to actively explicitly give

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ourselves kindness, warm support, especially when we're really struggling, which

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I was. And I was like, wow, you mean you're

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allowed to be nice to yourself? Is that going to

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make you like lazy or self indulgent or is it

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a bad thing? But she was talking about how compassion

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and from the Buddhist perspective of course self another we're

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all intertwined, We're all part of this larger, interconnected hole,

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so it doesn't only make sense to give compassion outward

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and not also inward. So I tried it out and

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I was really just blown away by the immediate, Like

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that night, almost immediately, the ability had to help me cope.

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I mean, the mindfulness meditation took a while, that was

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a little abstract, a little strange, but just being kind

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to myself and being more understanding and really, you know,

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treating myself like I would treat a good friend. It

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almost immediately made it easier for me to cope with

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all the difficulties I was going through. And so that's

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really how I got hooked. It was personal practice. And

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then it wasn't until a few years later that I

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actually did research on AM was like, I did get

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a real job luckily.

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So yeah, and gosh, there has been so much research

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in the years since.

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Was that maybe twenty years ago.

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Believe it or not? Yeah, so well, I actually started

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researching did twenty years ago. I published the first paper

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on in two thousand and three, So it's a wow.

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It's been a long time, another almost four thousand studies,

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so it's really mind blowing.

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It's amazing.

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I'm curious to know when you first learned about that,

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what did you experience some resistance to that, because so

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many people that I talked to really struggle with this

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whole idea, as it sounds like you did, with being

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kind to themselves.

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Right, Yeah, So, I mean, especially as a woman in

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her culture, were raised to be other focused and it's

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all about self sacrifice and you know, self compassion. Wasn't

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that just again being self indulgent or was that going

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to make me narcissistic? And I had all these normal

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fears about what it might do to me, or that

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maybe wasn't a good thing. But I suppose what really

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convinced me was just that again, the effect it had

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on me. I noticed that instead of being self indulgent

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or just letting myself off the hook, I noticed that

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the kinder I was to myself, the more able I

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was able to take responsibility for some of the problems

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I had caused my personal life, or or responsibility for

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my work and making sure I did what I needed

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to get a job. And I was really really surprised

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again by how much easier it made things. And it

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wasn't easier like you don't have to worry anything about

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anything because I was worried. It was more like I'm

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here for you, I got your back. And once I

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changed that mindset instead of shame and blame, which is

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not exactly very helpful, when I left, when I got

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rid of the shame and and I went toward the

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encouragement and support and understanding, I found I could take

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again more responsibility for myself and what I'd done. I

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was more motivated to again look for a job. Really,

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I just saw only positive benefits and that's why I

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was so convinced. And then what had happened actually is

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the very first job I got Before at U T Austin,

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I did two years of postdoctoral study with a woman

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who was one of the countries leading self esteem researchers

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because I was kind of interested in the self and

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Buddhism and all that, And it was while I was

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working with her that I started to learn about all

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the research on the negative sides of self esteem. So

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it's not a problem to have self esteem, but most

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people get their self esteem in an unhealthy way, right,

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Either they had to be special and above average or

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better than other people, or their self esteem is contingent, right,

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it depends on whether or not they're popular, or they

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look the way they want to look, or they succeed

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it was important to them. And then when they fail

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or they get rejected, right, or they're told God forbid

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their average at something, they're devastated and the self esteem

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leaves them. So I was learning about the problems of

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self esteem, and in my personal life, I was practicing

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self compassion and that I thought, wow, you know, this

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is a perfect alternative to self esteem because it's a

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way to feel worthy and feel good about yourself. But

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it's not for being better than others or forgetting it right.

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It's simply because you're a flat human being, worthy of

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kindness and compassion like everyone else. It's much more sustainable

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over time. And then when I got my real job

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University of Texas at Austin, I decided, hey, I want

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to research this, so the rest is history.

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Really, that's really interesting.

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I'm glad that you brought up that distinction between self

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esteem because for so many of us at that time

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and maybe even still to some degree, there's this huge

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focus on that's the most important thing is to have

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a healthy self esteem.

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That's right.

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I even get a bit confused about the definition of that, Like, yeah,

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I had never considered until I came across your work

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that self esteem was potentially not a great thing, that

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there was this sort of almost an an unconscious comparison

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with others, sort of checking how you going against other people.

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Absolutely, I mean so self esteem itself is good. It's

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good to have a sense of value because we're all valuable,

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and it's certainly unhealthy to hate yourself or have low

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self esteem. So against self esteem, a sense of worth

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is good, but how do you get your self esteem?

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So usually when people say esteem, it's like a judgment.

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I judge myself to be a good person or a

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bad person. Self compassion is not about judging yourself. It's

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not your own evaluating yourself at all. It's just like, hey,

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I'm inherently intrinsically worthy of kindness because I'm a human

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being like everyone else. So self esteem. Again, you might

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have an unconditional sense of self esteem, but most people don't.

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Most people get it again from being successful or looking

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a certain way. Actually for a woman especially, you know,

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our perceived attractiveness is so huge, or you know, be

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good at work or whatever is if you're an athlete,

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being good at sports, whatever is important to you. And

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for that reason, it's contingent and it's unstable. Right. And

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then also the social comparison thing, this thing, I mean,

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how would I say if, oh, you know, yeah, your

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podcast it's average. I mean, admit it. You'd be heard

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if you said, Kristen, your self compassion work is average.

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I'd be like, oh, true, it's not okay to be average.

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So true and because of that, Because our self esteem

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comes from being better than others at some level, it

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really sets up some nasty social comparisons. I mean, for instance,

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some bullying. We know from the research that one of

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the reason reasons young kids start to bully others is

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to boost their self esteem so they feel like the

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cool kid compared to the nerdy kid, or even prejudice.

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I mean, part of the reason we cling so tightly

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to our particular groups is because we want to feel

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good about ourselves because we're a group member that's better

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than your group. Yeah. True, So it can really be unhealthy,

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so true if we aren't careful. So self compassion. Self

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compassion is a source of self esteem, but it's an unconditional,

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a healthy source of self esteem. You might say.

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When you first dug into better understand this concept of

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self compassion, I mean, how did you go about that?

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How did you bring this to a research study?

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Right? So the first thing I had to do was

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define it, to come up with a good operational definition.

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You know, so just being a good friend to yourself

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like wasn't specific enough. So I actually did a lot

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of research into really compassion for others is where I started,

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and I realized that compassion has three core components. The

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first is actually mindfulness. You know, there's a lot of

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talk about mindfulness, but mindfulness is the ability to be

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present with what is, to kind of accept this is

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the way things are in the moment, you know this

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is happening, to be aware of it and not suppress

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it or fight it. And often when we suffer, when

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things are bad, we don't want to accept it. We

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either want to fight it, like we just totally resist it,

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or we put our head in the sand and we

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don't acknowledge it. So maybe you're feeling sad, or feeling

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grief or feeling stressed. Sometimes it's like I'm just going

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to stiff up a little bit. I'm just not going

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to pay any attention to it. And if we aren't

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aware of the fact that we're struggling, we can't be

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a good friend to ourselves. We can't say, hey, what

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do you need? How can I help if we aren't

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even aware of what we're going through in the moment.

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So that's actually kind of the first step of self compassion.

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And then of course it means responding with kindness, care

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and warmth as opposed to what's more typical for most

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people actually, which is responding with you know, criticism or

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shame or blame. And by the way, we do that

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because we think somehow it's going to help us if

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we beat ourselves up, somehow we'll prevent ourselves from making

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mistakes or it will help us deal with things. So

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it kind of comes from a good intention, but it's

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not very helpful. So with self compassion, we are helpful, right,

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we are kind, supportive, warm, And then really importantly what

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makes it compassion and not pity is a sense of

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connectedness to other people. So you would probably not like

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it if I pitied you. You probably might like it

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if I had compassion for something you were going through.

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And the difference is pity is looking down as like

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says the separation between me and you. Compassion is hey,

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I've been there, And so self compassion the same thing.

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Self pity is woe is me? Just feeling sorry for

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yourself and somehow you're suffering. Is special and unique and

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the only one in the world right where self compassion

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is hey, everyone struggles, everyone's imperfect. And it's so key

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because normally, not only are we suffering and struggling when

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we feel all alone. When we feel isolated from others,

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it makes it so much worse. But if we're remind hey,

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you know, the human experience is about struggle, It's about

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making mistakes. This is normal. There's nothing wrong with me

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because I'm struggling in the moment. Then it really helps

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support us and it makes things not so overwhelming.

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So they are the three the mindfulness, self kindness, and

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common humanity.

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Yeah yeah, oh yeah. So I didn't finish my story.

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So then so I defined it and then I developed

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a measure of it. I created a measure that's kind

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of had items like you know, when I when I struggle,

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I tend to be kind to myself, right, I tend

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to feel like everyone else is having an easier time

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of it. Right. So I just created items that measured

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the construct. And then we started doing research and we

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found that, I mean, really, the research is overwhelming, and

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it just just shows that people who are more self compassionate.

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And by the way, it's not just done with the scale.

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Now we might train people to be more self compassionate,

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or we might have people write a paragraph with mindfulness,

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a paragraph of common humanity, a paragraph of kindness, and

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see that changes their behavior. Right, So those are the

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most common ways we do the research, and what we

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find is people they're much more able to deal with

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their difficult emotions, right, They don't become so overwhelmed, they

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don't ruminate, they're so depressed, they aren't so anxious, They're happier,

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they're more able to function in life, they're more satisfied

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with their lives. So it reduces negative mind states and

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it really enhances positive, healthy ones.

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It's amazing you did a really good job of describing

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why we become so self critical, because I think that's

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a really key question, isn't it, Like why are we

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so inclined to that harsh self judgment and self flagellation

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for every little thing?

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Yeah, And I mean part of that is cultural, because

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some cultures encourage it more than others, Right, So we

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kind of we think it's a good thing to be

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heard on ourselves. That's part of it. But there's also

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just some plain, I think, physiological reasons why so hard

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on ourselves. So for instance, if I fail and make

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a mistake, I feel threatened, right, and especially my self

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concept is really threatened, and part of me feels like,

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oh my god, you know, this is the worst thing

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that ever happened. I failed. What's going to happen to me?

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So I get very scared. So I go into fight

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flight or freeze mode, and so I fight the problem,

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which is myself because I made a mistake. So I

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beat myself up again, thinking somehow that will force me

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to be better next time, so I won't be under threat.

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Or am I flee in shame? I kind of, you know,

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I think I hang my head in shame compared to

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the perceived judgments of others, Like we kind of withdraw

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and shame thinking that I'll keep us safe from the

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judgments of others, or we freezing, get stuck, We go

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over and over in our head. Now, when you make

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a mistake, I actually don't feel so personally threatened. So

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I'm less likely to go into threat defense mode, and

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I'm more likely to use another system we have, which

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is the caregiving mode. It's called the tendon the friend response. Right,

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So we also feel safe when we feel connected and

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close to others, when we're connected to other people in groups.

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And so it's easier for me if you have the

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care response for you than myself, because again, the systems

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really evolved, the care response evolved for other people, the

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threat defense response evolve more to keep ourselves safe. Almost

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like we're doing a little hat, we're doing a little

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workaround with our nervous system, and we're using the care response,

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which is normally toward others, toward ourselves. But it's not

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entirely natural, and that's all we have to practice it.

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But you know, again, we don't need to like beat

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ourselves up for beating ourselves up because we're just trying

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to stay safe. It's just not very effective.

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Unfortunately, that's a really good point that you might because

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I think it's also a common response when people start

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to realize the benefit of self compassion and then they

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realize that not being self compassionate, they start to get

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self critical of it, criticism.

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About yes, why can't it was another I had someone

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send me an email once thanks for giving me telling

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me one more thing.

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I'm bad at.

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I'm like, oh no, that's misappointing, you know, but it's natural.

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So first is my son. You'd think he would be

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so self compassionate because I've been talking to him about

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it his whole life, but he's still very self critical.

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Partly it is because he has autism, and I think

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in some ways it's it's kind of his his reactions

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are just more exaggerated, but they're very, very normal, And

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I know what happens is he gets scared and he

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really thinks that somehow beating himself up will help him

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be in control and reduces anxiety. And so it's you know,

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even though his whole life he's learned about self compassion,

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it still isn't totally natural for him. So, you know,

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we have to be kind to ourselves and be kind

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to our self. Critic is just trying to keep us safe. Yeah,

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and then we can start listening to this other voice,

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which is one of care and kindness.

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Yeah.

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It's really important though, isn't it to understand that this

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there's so much kind of instinct in that protecting ourselves

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from rejection and shame and anything that we perceive is

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going to get us ostracized from the tribe. You know,

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it's all this wiring that's you know, pretty deeply embedded.

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It's really ancient wiring. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So again it's

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part of the process. But there is another way. The

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research shows actually it's not that difficult to be kind

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to ourselves. And you know, for people like with early

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family trauma, it is more difficult because you may have

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been told you aren't worthy of kindness, and so sometimes

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it does need to be worked through. But it's not

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like mindfulness meditation where you need to learn to like,

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you know, come to a state of somebody or something

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like that. It's doing what we already know how to do,

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which is to be a good supportive from We already

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know how to do it to others. So it's really

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just more a matter of giving ourselves permission to do

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it with ourselves as opposed to learning some new skill.

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We already have the skill, we just need to use

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it with ourselves.

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It's interesting, you know, because I am trained in my

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NBCTA Mindfulness Space Cognitive Therapy, and so I was all

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about the mindfulness, mindfulness, mindfulness. Still am really all about

401
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the mindfulness.

402
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Yeah, but mindfulness is key. There's nothing without mindfulness.

403
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Right, exactly right.

404
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And I used to say the foundation of everything is

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you've got to start with mindfulness. And I think it

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was only later that I really realized there's if you're

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going to get present with this stuff, that's really hard

408
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and painful and uncomfortable. Then that's pretty challenging unless you

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really actively work on the self compassion. Yes, right, because

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and I now I'm all about self compassion. Self compassion, Yeah, yes,

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it involves mindfulness, but I think I find that even

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more important.

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Well, it's funny, there's some research that shows that if

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you teach people a little bit of self compassion before

415
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teaching them how to meditate, for instance, that it actually

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helps them learn mindfulness. Interesting because when they're mind drifts

417
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or they notice they're really bad at this there and

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so hard on themselves and they can focus more. So

419
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the two really do work together.

420
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Yeah.

421
00:22:03.319 --> 00:22:06.000
And of course at some level it's just open heart

422
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mind and everything's just open. But while you're getting there,

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the explicit warmth is so key. So you know, just

424
00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:17.079
putting your hand on your heart can be so life

425
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changing in terms of your ability to cope with a

426
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difficult moment. Something as simple as that can make a

427
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huge difference.

428
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I used to run some workshops. I haven't done one

429
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for a long time COVID, but you know, used to

430
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run some mindfulness workshops and do this meditation, which is

431
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you know, turning towards difficulty, which is this practice of

432
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being able to sit with discomfort, which, as you mentioned,

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we're really bad at. We want to deny it and

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avoid it and not look at it, turn away from it.

435
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And so, you know, sitting with discomfort and then asking

436
00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:50.000
people to just put a hand on that part of

437
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their body where they feel that difficult or painful emotion,

438
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and people would just cry like they're so unaccustomed to

439
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sending any sort of kindness or friendliness to themselves.

440
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I mean, it's.

441
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Really anybody listening to this, you need to do it

442
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next time you've struggling with a difficult, difficult emotion, you know,

443
00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:13.200
just stop and put a hand on your own heart

444
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or on your belly or some way, you know, send

445
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yourself some kindness.

446
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It's life changing for people, just like when.

447
00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:23.079
A friend you know reaches out and put holds your

448
00:23:23.079 --> 00:23:25.079
hand or puts your arm around you and says, I'm

449
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so sorry this is so hard for you. You know,

450
00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:31.000
we know the incredible power that has, but what we

451
00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:33.880
don't know is that we can also do that for ourselves. Yeah,

452
00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:37.880
and again, usually we're just in survival mode, which is understandable.

453
00:23:38.599 --> 00:23:40.880
If we're a good friend to ourselves, that actually helps

454
00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:43.519
us survive it's much more effective. It's much more efficient.

455
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It helps us calm down, we think better, We've got

456
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more clarity, it helps us not be so overwhelmed by

457
00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:52.039
the difficulties of life, which is part of the reason

458
00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:56.119
it's so powerful for mental and physical health. Right For instance,

459
00:23:56.119 --> 00:23:58.559
people who are more self compassionate, they have better immune

460
00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:02.279
function sick less often. It is because, of course, the

461
00:24:02.359 --> 00:24:05.759
mind the bardi are connected. So the more safe and

462
00:24:05.799 --> 00:24:09.039
secure we feel, the better are barty functions as well,

463
00:24:09.880 --> 00:24:12.480
so it's good for all sorts of reasons. We also

464
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sleep better.

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I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the

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benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are

467
00:24:23.319 --> 00:24:26.039
enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe

468
00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:28.400
so that you get notified when you apps drop and

469
00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:30.920
head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen

470
00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:39.960
and leave us a rating and review. One thing I

471
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:41.480
do want to ask you to talk a bit more

472
00:24:41.480 --> 00:24:45.920
about is the link between self compassion and goal achievement.

473
00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:48.359
You know somebody who's really striving to.

474
00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:51.759
Achieve big things in life, they need to be driven

475
00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:55.160
and ambitious and motivated. I think those are the people

476
00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:59.599
who really experience burnout and overwhelm and find it really

477
00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:01.519
difficult to be cond to themselves because they're the ones

478
00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:04.079
who think, no, that would just be letting myself off

479
00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:06.640
the whole. Can you talk a little bit about why

480
00:25:06.680 --> 00:25:09.400
self compassion is important for those people exactly?

481
00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:13.680
So, self compassion enhances motivation and is the more effective

482
00:25:13.720 --> 00:25:18.519
motivator than self criticism. So self compassion isn't just giving

483
00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:22.279
yourself a break. Sometimes you need a break, but sometimes

484
00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:24.079
if you want to be good to yourself, you want

485
00:25:24.079 --> 00:25:25.880
to help yourself. Actually you need to work a little

486
00:25:25.960 --> 00:25:28.720
harder sometimes, right, So who knows, it just depends where

487
00:25:28.759 --> 00:25:32.519
you are. But the reason you work hard is not

488
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:35.279
because you're an adequate as you are, but because you

489
00:25:35.319 --> 00:25:37.279
care about yourself and you want to reach your goals.

490
00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:42.079
You want to fulfill your potential. And that kind encouraging stance,

491
00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:44.039
that idea of you know, I've got your backup here

492
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:46.319
for you, what can I do to help? It's actually

493
00:25:46.440 --> 00:25:48.720
much more effective than you better get that right or

494
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:51.519
else you're a stupid fool, you know. It's like that

495
00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:57.519
harsh the whip driver, so to speak, creates anxiety. Also,

496
00:25:58.240 --> 00:26:00.640
the big problem with using self critical system is a

497
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:03.960
motivator is it makes it more difficult to learn from failure.

498
00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:06.640
First of all, we don't want to admit we failed

499
00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:09.440
because we're so harsh on ourselves. We'd rather blame someone

500
00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:11.519
else if we can get away with it, and if

501
00:26:11.559 --> 00:26:14.599
we can't avoid that truth. It's like, you know, when

502
00:26:14.599 --> 00:26:18.079
we shame ourselves, it shuts down our ability to learn,

503
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:22.319
whereas when we have self compassion, it's like ooh ooh,

504
00:26:22.359 --> 00:26:26.880
that failure hurt out Well, okay her, but it does

505
00:26:26.920 --> 00:26:29.200
happen to everyone. It's part of being human. We fail

506
00:26:29.240 --> 00:26:31.759
and make mistakes. It's part of life. What can I

507
00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:34.759
learn from this? What might I do better next time? Yeah? Right?

508
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:37.400
And the ability to learn from our failures is part

509
00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:40.400
of the reason self compassion is such an effective motivator

510
00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:44.119
and actually helps us achieve our goals more easily because

511
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:46.720
we can learn from our failures and that sense of

512
00:26:46.839 --> 00:26:50.359
encouragement and support keeps us going as opposed to just

513
00:26:50.440 --> 00:26:52.440
draining us or burning us out.

514
00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:55.720
Yes, I'm a psychologist in a very popular online health

515
00:26:55.720 --> 00:26:57.920
and fitness program for women here in Australia, and my

516
00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:00.480
role is the psychologist is to help with you know,

517
00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:03.680
managing life and stress. And motivation and mood and mindset

518
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:06.480
and mindfulness.

519
00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:06.240
Et cetera.

520
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:10.279
And again here's a whole bunch of women who are

521
00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:14.359
you know, working on adopting a healthier lifestyle and the

522
00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:17.640
self judgment and the self criticism. So we work a

523
00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:20.119
lot on self compassion in that community.

524
00:27:20.119 --> 00:27:21.680
But again there's this idea.

525
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:24.359
Like if I go off the rails and I eat

526
00:27:24.400 --> 00:27:26.640
all of this, you know, junk food, or I eat

527
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:28.640
the whole cake, you know, how can you tell me

528
00:27:28.680 --> 00:27:31.279
to be kind to myself? Like that's obviously really bad

529
00:27:31.319 --> 00:27:35.279
behavior and obviously it's not supporting me to achieve my goals.

530
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:38.519
I mean, how do we encourage them in that moment.

531
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:43.960
To see they're assuming kindness just means indulgence. Right, So

532
00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:48.359
a parent, you love your child unconditionally, even when they

533
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:51.319
do something that's not healthy. But if you love your child,

534
00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:53.960
you don't say eat all the cake you want or whatever. Right,

535
00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:56.480
you don't see a skip school and you're retired this morning.

536
00:27:57.240 --> 00:28:00.559
It's a very similar thing. So we've we will try

537
00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:04.039
to help ourselves eat well. There's research shows people eat better,

538
00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:09.920
they exercise more. Right, So if if it's not healthy,

539
00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:14.119
it's not self compassion. Yeah, good by definition, because compassion

540
00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:18.039
is about the alleviation, alleviation of suffering. So people just

541
00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:21.759
have very kind of limited notions of what self compassion means.

542
00:28:21.799 --> 00:28:25.319
That it's just giving yourself a break. Again. Maybe it's like, hey,

543
00:28:26.319 --> 00:28:28.880
I really want you to be better, feel better in

544
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:30.759
your body. I really want you to get more fit,

545
00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:33.200
I want you to be healthy. And therefore, really please

546
00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:35.279
don't eat that chocolate cake. It's not it's going to

547
00:28:35.319 --> 00:28:37.759
make you unhappy, You're going to regret it. Let's have

548
00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:40.640
let's do something else instead, and again, just like you

549
00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:43.720
would to a child or anyone you cared about, exactly.

550
00:28:43.880 --> 00:28:45.920
And I think that's a really that's a really great

551
00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:51.519
example using that kind of kind parent approach with ourselves

552
00:28:51.559 --> 00:28:54.559
that compassionate. You know, we can set boundaries with ourselves,

553
00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:57.559
but in a very kind and loving way because it's

554
00:28:57.559 --> 00:28:58.799
in our own best interests.

555
00:28:59.240 --> 00:29:01.319
It's like, what what does it come from? Does it

556
00:29:01.319 --> 00:29:04.200
come from care or does it come from fear. That's

557
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:07.920
the big difference. The motivation of self criticism comes from fear,

558
00:29:08.359 --> 00:29:11.359
I will be inadequate unless I get it right. The

559
00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:14.440
motivation of compassion comes from care. I want to do

560
00:29:14.519 --> 00:29:16.559
my best because I care and want to be happy,

561
00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:20.039
and it's a much more sustainable motivation. Like I say so,

562
00:29:20.200 --> 00:29:23.279
Just as an example, research shows that usually when people

563
00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:26.039
are trying to lose weight and they blow their diet,

564
00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:29.160
they usually eat more afterward because they beat themselves up.

565
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:31.240
You know, I can't do it, so I'm just gonna

566
00:29:31.240 --> 00:29:34.720
have found my sorrows and eating. Where self compassionate people,

567
00:29:34.759 --> 00:29:37.599
they're more able to say, oh, well, blue my diet,

568
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:40.880
It's okay, I'll just start again, So they're more able

569
00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:42.039
to stick to their goals.

570
00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:46.000
Yeah, so the self compassionate approach is much more likely

571
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:48.880
to get them back on track and moving towards their

572
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:52.599
goals than any kind of shaming or self criticism.

573
00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:56.119
This is a very important point exactly.

574
00:29:55.920 --> 00:29:57.319
Yeah, Kristen.

575
00:29:57.400 --> 00:30:00.279
So somebody's realizing, okay, this is really important for I'm

576
00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:03.039
really bad at this, I'm sorry, haush and judgmental of myself.

577
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:04.519
How do I start, Like.

578
00:30:04.519 --> 00:30:09.200
How do I begin to practice this self compassion thing?

579
00:30:09.319 --> 00:30:11.480
Do I just talk content to myself? That feels really

580
00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:13.640
often awkward to me? What do I do right?

581
00:30:13.799 --> 00:30:17.960
Right? So, first just to bring awareness to how do

582
00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:21.000
you relate to yourself? So if you're interested, you Actually,

583
00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:23.480
you can take the self compassion test on my website.

584
00:30:23.480 --> 00:30:25.880
If you go there, you can take a get a

585
00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:28.759
score that may give you some idea, or you can

586
00:30:28.839 --> 00:30:31.279
just think about it. You know, if you fail or

587
00:30:31.319 --> 00:30:34.000
make a mistake or something's difficult, just notice how you

588
00:30:34.039 --> 00:30:37.720
speak to yourself and ask yourself, when I say this

589
00:30:37.880 --> 00:30:41.640
in this way to a friend? And if not, then

590
00:30:41.720 --> 00:30:43.839
it probably means you could use being a little more

591
00:30:43.839 --> 00:30:46.880
self compassionate. But again, the good news is is you

592
00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:49.160
already know how to do it. You already know how

593
00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:52.160
to be compassionate to others most likely, right, if you're

594
00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:55.200
an adult, you've probably figured that one out. So you

595
00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:56.960
can just say, well, what would I say to a

596
00:30:57.000 --> 00:30:59.519
good friend I cared about in this situation? Right, And

597
00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:02.599
then you say something similar to yourself in the same tone,

598
00:31:03.079 --> 00:31:06.160
So it's language. I'm also, again, as we as we mentioned,

599
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:09.319
touch is so huge because touch works at the level

600
00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:16.000
of physiology. It actually reduces sympathetic activity and increases parasympathetic activity, right,

601
00:31:16.039 --> 00:31:20.079
so it reduces cortisol makes us feel safer physically, because

602
00:31:20.119 --> 00:31:22.960
if you think about it, the primary way parents communicate

603
00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:26.160
to their infants that they care before they speak is

604
00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:31.359
to touch, so our bodies respond to touch instinctively by

605
00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:36.240
feeling cared for and feeling calmer and safer, more connected.

606
00:31:36.839 --> 00:31:39.359
So you can use touch, you can use kind language.

607
00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:41.880
And then there's also a lot of resources now, right,

608
00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:45.000
So I've got books, I've got free stuff on my website,

609
00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:48.839
there's training courses, i mean, all mindfulness training. One of

610
00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:52.039
the good effects is that it raises self compassion, so

611
00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:55.240
that there really are a lot of resources. The good

612
00:31:55.279 --> 00:31:59.000
thing is it's not rocket science, right, It's not some

613
00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:01.799
tricky appstra. You don't have to get in a state

614
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:04.799
of like quiet mind. You just have to be warm

615
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:06.759
and kind to yourself, just like you would be to

616
00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:10.240
a friend. Yeah, but it can feel awkward, it definitely.

617
00:32:10.400 --> 00:32:15.240
It's not natural. It's not necessarily naturally natural evolutionarily, So

618
00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:17.559
it does feel awkwards. You've got to get through that bump.

619
00:32:17.640 --> 00:32:19.400
But after a while it starts feeling normal.

620
00:32:19.599 --> 00:32:24.759
It takes practice, and you're right, it's not natural evolutionarily

621
00:32:25.160 --> 00:32:27.680
is that a word. But it's also just it goes

622
00:32:27.720 --> 00:32:31.920
against often a lifetime of conditioned yes thinking, doesn't it

623
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:34.319
Like it's just changing those old habits.

624
00:32:34.039 --> 00:32:37.839
Changing those old habits and questioning them, right, really asking yourself,

625
00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:40.720
is it true? Is it really going to harm me?

626
00:32:40.759 --> 00:32:42.960
If I'm kind to myself, And then you can just

627
00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:45.480
try it out for yourself and see what's the impact.

628
00:32:46.039 --> 00:32:50.440
And most people, again are so surprised at how helpful

629
00:32:50.440 --> 00:32:53.759
it is for them to cope with difficulty, difficult emotions,

630
00:32:53.799 --> 00:32:57.200
difficult situations. It makes you feel stronger, it makes you

631
00:32:57.240 --> 00:33:01.519
feel more empowered, it makes you feel safer. It's I

632
00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:03.799
don't know how I would have gotten through COVID without it,

633
00:33:03.839 --> 00:33:06.000
for instance. And there's a lot of research that showed

634
00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:09.640
people with more self compassion did get through COVID better. Wow,

635
00:33:09.759 --> 00:33:12.240
they were less anxious about it, they were able to

636
00:33:12.279 --> 00:33:15.119
see maybe the gifts of it, they were less likely

637
00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:17.119
to turn to eating, for instance, as a way to

638
00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:20.920
deal with the stress of it. So this is real

639
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:24.960
life stuff. It's not theoretical moment to moment. The more

640
00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:28.400
supportive you are towards yourself, the better you will be

641
00:33:28.599 --> 00:33:31.559
in terms of your ability to coping it through difficult times.

642
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:32.440
Yeah.

643
00:33:32.759 --> 00:33:35.440
I do often get people to take your self compassion scale,

644
00:33:35.559 --> 00:33:38.640
and people score terribly, So that is a really good

645
00:33:38.680 --> 00:33:43.440
first point. Just get real about how low your self

646
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:46.519
compassion likely is and good for you if it's not,

647
00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:49.079
if you've actually already been working on this, But for

648
00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:52.119
most people that go, wow, like it's quite confronting how

649
00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:55.880
how low their level of self compassion is. The other

650
00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:58.559
thing is that you have on your website and exercise

651
00:33:58.599 --> 00:34:01.559
which is a self compassion letter. Yes, like write yourself

652
00:34:01.559 --> 00:34:05.640
a letter from like a compassionate friend. I often ask

653
00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:08.039
people to do that as well. And let me tell

654
00:34:08.079 --> 00:34:14.880
you they actively avoid it. Yes, they will do anything procrastinate.

655
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:18.199
Is that your experience too, that people will just they

656
00:34:18.400 --> 00:34:20.920
really struggle to do this exercise?

657
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:24.199
Yeah, well it does kind of depend on the person.

658
00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:28.360
But so sometimes it just feels awkward. There's cultural messages

659
00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:31.400
that it somehow hurts and flowers, or that it's going

660
00:34:31.480 --> 00:34:35.599
to make me soft. For other people, though, self compassion

661
00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:38.800
can be a little frightening, especially let's say if your

662
00:34:38.840 --> 00:34:42.400
parents were very critical. Is what happens is we start

663
00:34:42.440 --> 00:34:46.159
to give ourselves unconditional love and acceptance, and we immediately

664
00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:48.559
open the door to all those memories of not being

665
00:34:48.639 --> 00:34:53.159
unconditionally loved or accepted. So sometimes it can be activating

666
00:34:53.880 --> 00:34:55.960
for some people. We actually say it can help to

667
00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:58.679
do this work with the therapist, especially if you have

668
00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:03.079
an early trauma history, so you know people are different,

669
00:35:03.079 --> 00:35:06.079
but some people are more resistant to it, and it

670
00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:11.039
maybe partly because there's some fears. It's almost like the

671
00:35:11.079 --> 00:35:14.440
care system gets intermixed with the fear system if your

672
00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:18.599
caregivers weren't consistently kind and supportive to you, And in

673
00:35:18.639 --> 00:35:20.639
that case it may be helpful to get some help

674
00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:21.320
as you do it.

675
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:23.760
That's a really good point. I'm glad that you mentioned that.

676
00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:25.719
I was going to ask you earlier when you mentioned

677
00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:30.760
early trauma whether there is any research about self compassion

678
00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:32.079
being kind of healing.

679
00:35:32.199 --> 00:35:33.199
I imagine it would be.

680
00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:36.360
But absolutely it can be very, very healing. It's a

681
00:35:36.360 --> 00:35:40.559
way of kind of reparenting yourself. But on the other hand,

682
00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:44.039
it sometimes you need to go more slowly, and sometimes

683
00:35:44.039 --> 00:35:45.920
it really helps to have a therapist or so on

684
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:48.480
train to help you deal with the difficult emotions that

685
00:35:48.519 --> 00:35:50.960
come up. A lot of people when they practice self

686
00:35:50.960 --> 00:35:53.599
compassion and all this old pain comes up, they think

687
00:35:53.639 --> 00:35:56.920
they're doing it wrong. They're actually doing it right. They're

688
00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:58.920
just kind of opening the door of their hearts and

689
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:01.400
all this pain starts coming up that maybe was hidden

690
00:36:01.480 --> 00:36:04.079
or stuffed away, but it does mean, you have to

691
00:36:04.119 --> 00:36:07.239
do it compassionately. You don't want to like re traumatize yourself.

692
00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:10.639
You need to go slowly. Sometimes maybe you're doing one

693
00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:13.800
of the exercises like the Self Compassionate Letter. If it's

694
00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:16.480
too intense, then maybe just having a cup of tea

695
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:19.360
is actually the kindest thing you can do for yourself

696
00:36:19.400 --> 00:36:22.639
in the moment. It's really the attitude, the mindset. What

697
00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:24.920
do I need in this moment to be well? And

698
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:28.320
they're trying to give yourself that, but at pausing to

699
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:31.280
ask yourself the question is the number one thing? Yeah.

700
00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:33.639
The other thing that comes up for some people that

701
00:36:33.679 --> 00:36:37.239
I've talked to is almost like a grief at how

702
00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:40.159
long they have spent being so hot on themselves, like

703
00:36:40.199 --> 00:36:42.239
what they've denied themselves.

704
00:36:42.360 --> 00:36:43.639
It's like a real sense of loss.

705
00:36:44.159 --> 00:36:47.400
Yeah, And it is said, you know, that's partly who

706
00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:49.480
I've devoted my life to this, you know, all the

707
00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:54.119
unnecessary suffering, because I mean, life's hard enough, and we

708
00:36:54.199 --> 00:36:57.559
make it so much worse with our self criticism and

709
00:36:57.599 --> 00:37:00.320
our shame. Yeah, and we kind of we need to

710
00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:03.800
have that grief. We need to feel the pain of

711
00:37:03.880 --> 00:37:06.039
how we've treated it ourselves so that we can be

712
00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:09.639
motivated to try a different way. Yeah, we want to

713
00:37:09.639 --> 00:37:11.559
be aware of what we're doing to ourselves. We don't

714
00:37:11.559 --> 00:37:14.360
want to just think it's normal and go numb, because

715
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:16.840
if we go numb, then we continue to harm ourselves.

716
00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:20.960
And Kristin, you have just put out a new book

717
00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:24.800
called Fierce Self Compassion, How Women can harness kindness to

718
00:37:24.920 --> 00:37:28.280
speak up, claim their power and thrive, which I am

719
00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:30.840
still halfway through, and I am loving and this is

720
00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:36.320
a whole different, more well fearce approach to this idea

721
00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:39.280
of self kindness. And I am so thrilled that you

722
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:41.880
have agreed to come back and have another conversation to

723
00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:44.119
dive into fierce self compassion.

724
00:37:44.119 --> 00:37:47.639
So I'm going to hold that off until our next chat.

725
00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:49.639
And I just want to say thank you so much

726
00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:51.800
for the time that you have spent today.

727
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:52.639
I'm so grateful.

728
00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:56.079
It's a bit of pleasure. Thank you.

729
00:37:57.360 --> 00:38:00.320
Kristin is the author of the book Self Compassion, The

730
00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:04.199
Proven Power of being kind to Yourself, and this year

731
00:38:04.280 --> 00:38:08.360
she released her new book, Fierce Self Compassion, How Women

732
00:38:08.440 --> 00:38:12.840
can harness kindness to speak up, claim their power and thrive.

733
00:38:13.400 --> 00:38:14.559
If this is a topic that.

734
00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:17.079
Is of interest to you, you might be interested to

735
00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:19.519
know that. In conjunction with her colleague doctor Chris Germa,

736
00:38:19.719 --> 00:38:23.920
doctor nef also developed a training program called Mindful Self Compassion,

737
00:38:23.960 --> 00:38:26.800
which is taught around the world. They co authored the

738
00:38:26.880 --> 00:38:32.000
Mindful Self Compassion Workbook and the Teaching Mindful Self Compassion Program,

739
00:38:32.079 --> 00:38:35.320
which is a guide for therapists. She's also co founder

740
00:38:35.360 --> 00:38:38.199
of the nonprofit Center for Mindful Self Compassion.

741
00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:40.519
If you'd like to find out all about.

742
00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:42.880
Her work, and she has a whole lot of resources

743
00:38:42.880 --> 00:38:46.119
and exercises and her self Compassion Scale, It's all on

744
00:38:46.159 --> 00:38:51.559
her website self dashcompassion dot org. I hope that you

745
00:38:51.559 --> 00:38:55.159
will join us next week for the second installment of

746
00:38:55.239 --> 00:38:58.360
My conversation with doctor Christen nev All about fear, self

747
00:38:58.360 --> 00:39:02.239
compassion and particularly the circumstances that led her to writing

748
00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:05.039
this book. Now it's a book about how we can

749
00:39:05.119 --> 00:39:08.239
use self compassion to set boundaries, be brave, and stand

750
00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:11.159
up for the things that matter most. If you enjoy

751
00:39:11.199 --> 00:39:14.000
the show, please, as always, think about leaving a five

752
00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:17.840
star rating and a positive review on Apple Podcasts, hit

753
00:39:17.880 --> 00:39:21.000
the subscribe button or follow if you're listening on Spotify.

754
00:39:21.400 --> 00:39:23.039
That is how the show achieves.

755
00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:25.599
A higher ranking and attracts new listeners, and I cannot

756
00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:28.360
wait to bring you part two of my conversation with

757
00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:33.000
Kristin Neff on the next episode of Crappy to Happy

758
00:39:39.400 --> 00:39:39.840
Listener