Tapping into health with Peta Stapleton

0:02 A listener production. This is Crappita Happy and I am your host Castunn. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist and mindfulness meditation teacher and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their field and who have something of value to share that will help you feel less crappy and more happy. Today, I am very excited to introduce you to doctor Peter Stapleton, who has twenty five years of experience as a clinical and health psychologist here in Australia. She's an Associate professor in Psychology at Bond University and she is a world leading researcher in EFT that is emotional freedom techniques otherwise known as tapping.

0:53 So Peter's research focuses on this fourth wave of psychological therapies that really focus on the mind body connection. And if you're a regular listener of this show, you will know that we've been talking a lot about this in recent episodes, which is why I was so excited to get Peter on to tell you all about the latest, most current research that is supporting tapping as a therapeutic intervention. I think you'll find this really fascinating. Here is my conversation with Peter, Doctor Peter Stapleton. Is such a pleasure to have you in the Crappy to have you studio today. Thank you for being here. Thanks so much, Cas. I really have been looking forward to this one, Peter.

1:35 You know, I'm a fan of tapping, and on this show we actually had an episode on tapping a few years ago. I've got a friend who's a psychologist who's been using tapping in her practice for probably close to almost twenty years, over fifteen for sure, and we talked a little bit about some of the research then. But I think even in that time, the interest in EFT tapping has grown, the research has grown, and so I really want to to come back and revisit this topic. And this time goes straight to the source of a lot of that really fascinating research, which is where you come in. So it's really exciting for me to have you here. So, Peter, though, for anybody who is listening going who is still kind of new to this whole EFT tapping thing, how would you describe what it is?

2:21 Yeah? Look, the most simple way I would actually describe EFT emotional freedom technique, so we nickname it. Of course, tapping is a way to reduce stress in the body, so it is simply a stress reduction technique. What it involves is obviously staying present to what's happening for you, but at the same time tapping with two fingers on an acupuncture point, so people might understand acupuncture instead of needles, we just tap on an acupuncture point into instead. So really its most simple definition is it is just a way to reduce stress in the body. Yeah, And so essentially we're using our two fingers to just tap light. I typically tap maybe eight times on a particular point, and we go around a series of points on the face and parts of the body, right, so we just tap tap tap.

3:10 That's right, yes, yeah, so it is tap tap tap, and it does just follow a fairly simple kind of recipe if you like. You know, there's only eight points that we actually tap on, and you're right, you know, you might tap seven or eight times on each. Mostly we're staying focused on what it is that we're feeling, which kind of makes it a little bit counterintuitive to some other talk therapy approaches that maybe you know, encourage you to sort of find the silver lining or think more differently, we actually stay present. So if I feel angry, that's what I say when I'm actually tapping on those points. And we'll get into the research, I'm sure, but how that works in the brain to actually shift the feeling of anger is quite profound. Yes, I am very very interested to get to get into how that works. So generally speaking, Peter, you are a clinician as well as a researcher, which is really exciting.

4:01 So from your experience both as a treating practitioner and as a researcher, what kinds of problems can be effectively addressed, resolved, improved using tapping. Yeah, look, it's wide ranging, and sometimes that kind of makes people sort of think, oh, how can it work for so many different things? So everything from perhaps clinical issues like post traumatic stress disorder or phobias, anxiety, stress disorders, that type of thing, as well as things like depression, but then also everyday kind of issues, even chronic pain. We're currently doing research in that space. It might even be things like just an annoyance that's going on for you.

4:43 So it is quite wide ranging. Children as young as four and five years of old age can actually do tapping as well, just on how they feel insomnia, sleep issues, things like that. And the reason why it does have an impact on all of those different areas is because if at any level is playing a role and we come the body down and reduce stress, whether that's hormonally or just as a feeling state, then we seem to get a shift in the other symptoms that might belong to, you know, whatever it is, even addiction and things like that. So certainly, you know, I've had people sort of say, well, it seems curious that it doesn't just work for a kind of a group of conditions but everything out there.

5:25 And that's really the most simplistic answer is if there's stress involved and you can calm the body down, then you will feel differently afterwards and you might make a different choice. So I'm quite known for my food craving weight loss research in this typing space, and what we actually do is obviously reduce the craving response to certain foods, and if that happens, then people don't want to eat the food anymore, so of course they lose weight over time. So yeah, just if everybody kind of keeps their mind around that idea is that if you reduce stress and you feel pretty calm, lots of things can change in your life. That is a really great way of thinking about it, because when you think about it, so much of the problems we experience, as you say, all encompassing, if there is, they all create some kind of stress or dysregulation or disharmony in our body. So hence why tapping can be so effective in so many areas. Yeah, interesting that you mentioned food cravings because I did have Glenn McIntosh on the show a little while ago, and he certainly mentioned tapping as part of his conversation as well, which I know is why a lot of people will be really interested to him more about that. So, Peter, I know that last time when I spoke to my friend Jackie about this, my gleaning of the research at the time was that this had been shown to be pretty effective with as you said, PTSD and predominantly anxiety type disorders.

6:52 From a research perspective, like, how has had that expanded now? Like what's the evidence now to show the clinical or well, you know, sort of therapeutic effectiveness. Absolutely, So, I would say the last decade has really seen an exponential growth in the clinical research coming out of universities worldwide. We obviously do our here Upon University. And what really has happened in this EFT tapping space is it has been subjected to a lot of physiological biological clinical trials, which I think is really different to a lot of other talk therapies out there that typically and we do too, just use self report measures. So really what we've been able to show in the last decade is that tapping on these acupuncture points has a profound impact and effect not only things like the amygdala, the stress center, but you know eeg brainwave scan, So they've been looked at to see that tapping actually brings them into a more coherent kind of wave state, including heart ratevability, those sorts of things.

7:53 Cortisol we test quite regularly. We've done that here in Australia, it's done in the US for different conditions to see that happing actually has an impact on cortisol. So even one hour of tapping did we replicated a trial a couple of years ago. Our group that sat tapping compared to two other conditions had a forty three percent reduction in cortisol in one hour like to have that kind of profound that has an impact on weight for a lot of people, Yes, stress hormone, whereas we were just teaching them how to use it for stress. We had two other comparisons in that a talk therapy based standard kind of approach and a reading relaxation group that read magazines. Now, the reading group had an increase of. Cortsol that actually really worse. It doesn't really kind of help you relax if you just take time out.

8:37 But our talk. Therapy group, I only had a nineteen percent reduction in that one hour learning about what stress is, so definitely tapping kind of really stood out there. Proud to say that the American Psychological Association published that study in one of their key journals, which is quite quite a big kind of thing in the academic world to have like the APA sort of publish that. But coming back to our biological research, we've even done an fMRI study, so a brain scan study here in Australia which is published and then these scans are on my website. Anyone can go and have a look at them. So we taught people, we put them inside the machine, showed them pictures of high calorie foods, saw which parts of the brain fired, and then we sent them away for a four week tapping program, so eight hours over four weeks on food issues. Brought them back five weeks later, put them inside the machine, scanned them again looking at those calories and the reduction in so you can actually see these brain images on my website. The reduction in activity in the brain in the reward and loss pleasure center is so dramatic you can't even see it. We say it was lit up like a Christmas tree, and then four weeks later after tapping, and which corresponded to the people coming out and saying I didn't really have any desire to want to eat those foods, even though they did four weeks four weeks earlier, which we could.

9:53 Obviously clearly see. And we're about to do an fMRI study in the chronic pain area in the coming couple of months. So yeah, there's lots of stuff that's coming out. We're sitting at now about two hundred and fifty clinical trials published on EFT worldwide. Lots of different areas covered in that. But it is certainly it's now got government acceptance in the UK and the US, and we have aspects here in Australia hospitals that include it. So it is growing, and I think it is a space to kind of watch because it's quite different in that level of biological research that's actually coming out. A couple of DNA studies have actually been done in the US, and one particular study showed one hour of tapping change the expression of seventy two genes in the bottom. Now they were genes, yeah, attached to inflammation, immunity, cancer suppression. Now, if a gene is upregulated or is expressing itself, we tend to have a symptom if it's down regulated and not expressing itself.

10:54 Tapping change seventy two genes expression. Another study showed ten sessions of EFT. Now this was for post traumatic stress disorder, So ten weeks of tapping actually changed the expression of six genes associated with PTSD, and six months later those war vets still didn't meet criteria and the genes hadn't kind of you know, started expressing themselves again. So we literally have this technique taving on these actipressure points, which I just. Think is profound, and we can change gene expression. So I don't know anything else out there I'm pretty excited to stay in this space. It is profound, as you said, and I think that is that why people still tend to be a bit skeptical.

11:38 People feel like surely not like, surely it can't be that simple, But really the science is saying that, yes, it can be and lasting. Yeah, And I think you know, you're absolutely right. We probably are a little bit conditioned to want things to. Be a bit harder, or if we've had an issue for a long time in our life lives, we might. Expect that it should therefore take a long time to overcome or to get relief from. And the reality of neuroplasticity and how the brain works is that doesn't even match what we understand about the brain. The brain likes to learn fast and quickly. So if there's a technique that actually matches that, Eft's one, there are other ones, so EMDR the eye movement one and a couple other somatic based ones very similar. If it matches that ability to kind of release quickly.

12:29 The brain's happy with that. We don't necessarily need twenty four sessions over two years to because that doesn't match what neuroplasticity tells us about the brain's way of learning. So if cost effectiveness or something like that's an issue or time, certainly these techniques that have lots of evidence wrapped around their rapid ability I think suit a lot more people. So I forever say, look, just stay open. If someone's listening going oh I don't know about this, or and it's like, well give it a go. Research is there. What have you got to lose kind of thing, But at least stay open to the possibility that lots of these things actually will get your relief a lot faster than some of the traditional ways.

13:10 Yeah. I recently also had doctor Nicole Leperre on the podcast, so she's the holistic right, it's good, It's great, isn't it. Obviously anybody who hasn't listened you should. But she's the holistic psychologist on Instagram, so she has millions of followers, and she posted something I noticed about tapping on her Instagram to her three and a half million followers, and somebody in the comments wrote, look, I really love your work, but if you're going to go talking about this pseudo science while I'm unfollowing, like, you're just reducing your credibility when you start talking about this you know, woo woo whatever. I thought, that's so interesting that there are still people who take that attitude, which is why I thought it was so important to have you on to to dispel some of that, because there are still people who really don't don't not know probably about the research that supports it.

14:03 Yeah, and look, there is in the medical research field something that's called the translational gap, where the suggestion is it takes about seventeen years on average, so sometimes a little. Bit more a little bit less for a. New therapy to be accepted into mainstream. So that translational gap happens across lots of different fields medicine therapy, and their suggestion is only four percent of therapies that are kind of being tested that a new will. Make it across that. Now we've probably had the last fifteen years in the EFT research world really have solid research come out, so we're approaching that seventeen year mark. So it doesn't surprise me that people still might go, m look at Wikipedia, might say it's a pseudo science because anyone can edit the Wikipedia.

14:48 Page kind of thing. Versus actually, if you're going to have a look at the two hundred and fifty clinical trials, ninety eight percent of them show positive outcomes, and I think that shift is happening, but we are still se just below that translational gap kind of idea. But you know, it took about twenty years for EMDR to be accepted into mainstream and even though that's now considered a gold standard, if you went back twenty five years ago to my university days, everybody would have said, that's absolute rubbish. How can moving your eyes, so I decide, have an impact on trauma? And now it's a gold standard for trauma. So I like to give that. Comparison to sort of say, look, you know, EFT and tapping is kind of working in a similar space in timeframes as well, So five years time we might be having a different conversation.

15:34 It is a slow old process, isn't it getting anything? To kind of just getting that science to catch up with what you know. For example, my friend Jackie who said fifteen twenty years ago, look, I don't know how it works. I just know that it's helping my client, So I'm going to keep doing it as long as it keeps helping people. We were the same, so that's right exactly. So it's a frustration, but you know, it's just a part of the process. I guess, Peter, I know that there are you know, you talked about the we can see the corsol and we can see the changes in the new you know, the fMRI studies about what's happening in the brain. Do we actually know how or why that happens? Like, are we any closer to understanding what's actually happening in the body when we touch these points?

16:24 Yeah? So not us, But Harvard University actually did a teen year definitive study where they mapped all of the acupuncture points in the body. So they actually, which is fabulous, a couple of papers published out of there where they were just looking at what people sometimes call, you know, the meridian system in Chinese kind of acupuncture fields and complementary medicine areas. You might have seen one of those charts, you know, if you've ever gone off to have a massage or something like that. So they actually over time mapped all of those and showed definitively that where we or where medicine have typically said there's an acupuncture point, there is indeed a density of that vascular structure that comes together it's actually showed and that's published in scientific journals that where an acupuncturist might put a need or that is indeed a density and other areas of body that don't have that. And we actually have studies that include sham tapping or sham acupuncture where a needle is put somewhere where there isn't a known sort of density of that vascular structure. And of course the results absolutely show when you do sham or placebo like that, people don't get the effect, even if they are unaware. They might think that, oh, yeah, that's the tapping point, but there's not actually one there kind of thing. So they've been done in EFT, they've been done by people that actually are trying to disprove, but they still come up with those results that the group that get the true ef T on a known acupuncture point get the outcomes.

17:55 So there is something about the actual stimulation of an acupressure point that has that effect that direct message back to the amygdala, which is the stress center in the brain. That kind of thing. So we've got other theories. Memory reconsolidation is one of them that suggests how it lasts so quickly over time. And how it works. And the proposal there is that if you bring up an emotional state that's distressing or uncomfortable, but at the same time that that's happening in the brain, you do something that's the opposite. So tapping for us is the calming technique, but someone else might do the eye movements, someone else might do some sort of breathing technique. If at the same time you've got the brain can't hold a negative, distressing feeling and a calming one, turns out the calming one wins.

18:44 So if you repeat it enough. You give the brain a different kind of experience and that starts to sort of, if you like, pull apart that association. So memory reconsolidation is the reason why if you're doing it at the same time, which often people when they start having they say why am I saying my problem? It's like you have to engage in it enough for this to work. That you've got to bring it up just enough then do the tapping that you get that opposite response that's there. So and just a bit of a nerdy moment, what we're doing here at Bond University is we've actually partnered with Stephen Porge's team at Indiana University in the US polyvagel theory are now testing so excited it's my nerd moment.

19:26 Of plow yes, I'm here for it. I'm here for it. So we are actually measuring in our chronic paintrol that's currently happening vaguel tone and efficiency with a little device, and their team analyzed the data for us because their team and Ow's are starting to theorize that EFTs probably have been quite an impact on vagel tone and efficiency, which is why you know, we've done two years follow up on our food craving weight loss trials and two years later, people can't remember the food that they did on nor do they eat it anymore, and they haven't for two years. And it's like, why do you have to not keep tapping?

20:07 You know, shouldn't you. Keep tapping every time you see the cockroach in the corner or the chocolate cake on the counter, But you don't have to. Once it's collapsed, you appear not to need it. And the suggestion there is that we're moving into hopefully being able to show that we're improving bagel tone, which means, you know, get triggered anymore down the track, same with the PTSD patients that you know get followed up and things like that as well. So a couple of different things. It is. And I recently. Said to a committee here at Bond University we were talking about these kind of things that we probably did it a little bit differently in this field. We went out and we showed that it worked. Now we're actually coming back to sort of talking about what's going on here, So that's where we're at, which is very exciting. I still think, you know, polyvagel theory, memory reconsolidation are sound theories that already exist, and we might be able to kind of talk about this in a couple of is time.

21:00 With what we're gathering at the moment. I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe so that you get notified when you EPPS drop and head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and leave us a rating and review. You mentioned something interesting then, Peter about sham tapping. I think this is really important, So it is not just about tapping anywhere you like on your body, there are certain points. Can you just for listeners, can you just please explain that research about testing tapping on different points and how that doesn't necessarily work.

21:47 Yeah, it is really important to make sure that that kind of research does get done. And interestingly enough, in the tapping world, those studies have been run by people that weren't necessarily tapping research, so they were quite unbiased, which is a really good thing, and they were perhaps even trying to show that it doesn't work, So we call them dismantling studies. A lot of the time where it might be that there's quite a few conditions. To see what's the active ingredient here. So one group might just say the words that people say in the tapping sequence but with no tapping. Another group might. Say the words but do deep breathing instead of tapping, just to see is that having the impact. Another group will tap on the normal tapping points, but then.

22:30 A fourth group might actually tap on sham points. So that is where out of Harvard's research, there's an unidentified acupuncture point. And I can let you know that. The underneath your forum there are none there. For example, there's none on the palm of your hand. So the best dismantling studies will use the palm of the hand on that area as sort of a flat tapping because there's no known acupuncture point. I'll give you one example. There was a sham study done, quite a robust one on test anxiety, so you know, getting a bit worked up about doing an exam, that type of thing, or a performance. So they had one group do traditional tapping, talk about their stress and tap on the pressure points.

23:11 Another group that. Did that open palm on the underneath it be for but again still do the normal words that kind of thing. Now, the sham group got about an eight. Percent reduction in their anxiousness, but the group that did the tapping on the actual points got a thirty nine percent average reduction, and that's statistically significant. So the difference is but they don't know. Typically the groups don't know they're getting the sham condition. So obviously plasce ebo effect can be helpful. It's like, oh, this might help me, but indeed, not actually hitting an ACTI pressure point is actually shown not to really have the impact. So you're right, we can't just sort of walk around and having anywhere we actually need to.

23:52 And there's pressure points everywhere. Anyone that sort of trained in kinesiology might know other pressure points. We just use eight of them to make get nice and easy. We've got a recipe to follow. They work in the clinical research. If you want to add a few more in you know about, that's okay as well. If you want to drop a few out, that's okay. But it just makes it easier to sort of test and replicate. Yeah, and I want to come back to that as well. But the other thing I first wanted to mention before I forget is I heard you talking recently about imagined tapping, imaginal tapping, which I think is so fascinating given what we know about mental rehearsal in terms of look athletes who imagine themselves practicing the shot and they still get improvements.

24:37 Can you talk about that in relation to tapping. Yeah, fantastic. So for a long time in the pain space or if someone's got insomnia, we've kind of always suggested, look, if you can't physically tap at the time, but you could imagine tapping. What we understand about that imaginal rehearsal. Certainly, you know there's lots of Olympic teams US at the Navy Seal use it in the US, lots of astronauts are trained in it. So if you do mental rehearsal, there's an understanding that the brain will still activate. So we were borrowing on that to sort of suggest to people, look, just imagine tapping but still say the words in your mind or whatever. But if you don't want to wake someone up in the middle of the night, but you need to tap to go back to sleep. So that was great and then early this year twenty twenty one, German researchers released a trial where they had people go inside and fMRI machine so MRI and do functional MRI, where they asked them they'd shown them images before they went in that were kind of of a disgust nature.

25:39 So I have the image that would making go, oh, that's yuck. So when they went inside the machine, they asked them to think about that image. And they'd already taught them some tapping sequences, and they said, imagine tapping while you're in there thinking of the discussed image that you've just seen, so that they could actually see does. That have any impact not only subjectively on the person. Going oh, I feel better now, but the brain and they're the first study that's now been published that showed actual activation in the brain doing imaginal tapping. So we actually now have more to suggest that if you need to just imagine, oh you're sitting in a meeting and you don't want to actively tap, if you imagine tapping, as long as you're still saying the words of what you're.

26:23 Feeling, it works. So that study has actually been published now by German researchers. Was just so interesting, isn't it. Actually? Yes, the other thing you just mentioned, Peter is if you know other points, tap on them. But you know there are places where you shouldn't be tapping because there's no point, there's no active pressure points, So that's not going to have any benefit. I wanted to talk to you about. I've sat in seminars with Bethel Vanderkolt, for example, you know, leading trauma researchers who have been talking about things like tapping for a long time, and people will say, look, just tap, you know, like I don't get too hung up on specific processes and protocols and the words that you say or the order that you do it in and all of that sort of stuff. So and I think this is where people get a bit stark or confused because there is a protocol, isn't there. Like, in order to conduct research, we need to follow a very specific protocol to ensure that everybody's getting the same intervention exactly like we have to do with CBT or ACT or any other clinical intervention. But when it comes to sitting at home and I'm feeling really stressed or anxious or having a food craving, Like, what of the basics that people just need to remember and where do they can they kind of let go of any need for processes and doing it right and all of that stuff.

27:46 Yeah, and it's a really good point. Yes, we follow all those kind of strict, really strict protocols so that research can be replicated. And that's all fantastic for evidence. But if someone was just at home, if you were in an emotional state, so you felt really stressed, or you came home and something was just sort of you know, making a bit irritable, or or there's a craving brewing. If you're in the physical state, you don't even need to think about words to say because you're already activated. If you were to just start tapping while you're in that state, you will have an effect. So even if you're not saying any words, and we sometimes just say, you know, just tap and breathe. So just tap and breathe as you're going. As long as you're tapping on some of those known acupressure points, because you're in the state, you will get a shift.

28:31 It may not be that you end up kind of finding out and unpacking where this. Came from, but it may not matter because in that moment, like Besil talks about, you get yourself back in that window of tolerance to be able to just cope in the moment. So many times I might do that too, where I'm like something just sort of you know, it's a bit overwhelming, and I'm like. I'm just going to tap in the moment just for this. I don't have to say anything. I'm just going to calm my body down physiologically. So tap and breathe is fantastic. It works in that respect for children who are nonverbal. So it does tell us that if you're in an agitated state and you actually tap on a pressure point, you will actually calm the body down. Dawson Church and I Dawson of course runs eft Universe, one of the big training organizations. We published a paper a couple of years ago that was a meta analysis where we definitively showed from the sham tapping and other research the actual tapping on an acupuncture point is the active ingredient in tapping, not the words that you say. So as long as you're in the state and you're tapping, it works, and it will work for children who are on the spectrum on nonverbal We have lots of kind of you know schools that have those children where we've taught them tapping and they just use it as a regulation tool. So I think, you know, just to get in that habit. To me, it's just the habit of tapping. So if you can just tap for five minutes a day, you're gonna have a ripple effect.

29:54 Even if it's just, oh, I didn't sleep real well last night. I'll just do a little bit of tapping on that moving call. I do the same. I do the same if I'm just feeling a bit stressed or overwhelmed or something's going on or irritated or whatever. Just connecting with the feeling and tapping on the points. That's it, right, That's the very basics. Peter, We've talked a lot about clinical issues and anxiety and you know, depression of stress and food cravings. I've also heard about tapping being used for things like goal setting and you know, like removing financial blocks or success blocks or self sabotage. Can you talk a little bit about that, because I know you do some work in that space as well.

30:34 We do, and it's probably such a favorite space of mine. We've done lots of school trials here, particularly on the Gold Coast, just because they're local and heard us on news and things like that. So we go in and teach students how to use it for you know, test anxiety and things like that. But one of the ways that we often build the bridge because of course, can you imagine a fifteen year old boy looking at me going here, tap on your face. You know, he thinks I'm crazy. So will often introduce it as as a goal setting technique, and we say to them, hey, is there anything you'd really like to you know, have come true in your life or a goal that you really want to achieve, And of course most teenagers will say yeah, yeah, yeah, So they write down their goal and this is exactly what we do and it's often just the bridge that we build to sort of teaching them.

31:18 And then we say, so, what are. The reasons, excuses, whatever limitations that you think will get in the road of that goal coming true being achieved, And so then they write a list. So we're like, it doesn't matter, just whatever comes to mind. And this is what I would encourage people to do. So if they had a goal to, you know, go on a holiday, so why why don't you go on the holiday? What do you think we'll get in the road? They write them down. Now that is what we end up tapping on. So it's almost like it could be a limiting belief, it could be something else. It could be a family saying, it could be something like a. History of a repeating pattern. That's actually what we do the tapping on. So we're actually kind of collapsing, if you like, the limiting believes that we call it the tape enders in your head, the little chattery monkey.

32:02 That can't go so you can't do that, blah blah blah. If I give you a simple example, we had a young boy, grade eleven. We went into this school to teach them this, and he said, I want to be school captain next year in grade twelve, and we're like, okay, well that's good goal. Why wouldn't that come true? And he said, Oh, I only just got to this school. I haven't been here for the whole time. People don't really know me. And even though I feel okay to give a speech, I don't think my peers will vote for me because they're like, who were you? You haven't been here. So that was sort of his main thing. There were a few others, so we just did some tapping around that so that he didn't feel that sort of was so true for him anymore. Now, fast forward about nine months. I was back at the school and I was talking to the principal just about some other things, and I suddenly remembered.

32:45 I said, oh, who's the school captain this year? And he mentioned this boy's name, and I just had one of these. I started laughing at the school principles looking at me like what are you laughing? And I'm like, oh, he actually tapped on that. So it's just one example, but it is a real lovely way to introduce tapping to teenagers that may be a bit skeptical because you. Know, let's face it, tapping on your face is a bit weird. So if they kind of go, oh, maybe something will come out of this for me, And I think it's such a nice way. What we're still tapping on is those underlying kind of limiting beliefs and things like that and sort of removing them so that you do feel like perhaps your belief in that goal is much higher. And then see what happens.

33:26 And I'm imagining too, just listening to you talk about that, that there's there would be a flow on, like a ripple effect, right, So you might be tapping on one particular issue, but because of the effect that's happening on your nervous system and the way your brain is wirde, then you would imagine that would translate out into improving other potential problems you might be experiencing. Would that be right? Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. Absolutely. People will often sort of say, hey, I was tapping on, you know, maybe something physical in the body, and then I actually also got an outcome, you know, maybe my fear of public speaking decreased or something, and they didn't realize they were probably connected. And that's all it is is we often are tapping in one area but get a shift in another one because there was probably a common denominator they just didn't realize, and we're like it's a bonus, yeah, just go with it.

34:17 Yeah yeah yeah. Now, Last, but not least, I recently did the evidence based EFT training and which was great. As a therapist, I felt like it was important to kind of do that and to understand that, you know, the clinical protocols and things like that for the person listening to this, who can easily go to YouTube and see a thousand more you know, YouTube videos on tapping, or can download apps. You know, there's lots of ways that people can access tapping scripts and things like that. At what point would somebody kind of go and see a trained like a clinical if practitioner as opposed to just doing their own youtubing.

35:04 Yes, And I do think you're right. There's so much out there, and there's good information out there, you know, on YouTube and things like that. If at any point someone's tapping along, you know, maybe with the topic that they've picked because that's what's going on for them at the moment, or an area they want to change in their life, like you mentioned, you know, finances and things. That's often an area that people will find a video on. If at any point in that tapping with the video, and of course it's not a live person, any distress level comes up that that person's really uncomfortable with, or a memory comes back from a long time ago, eg. Childhood that someone hasn't thought about for a while that maybe takes them by surprise. That is the moment to actually go and seek some support with a trained practitioner, whether that's a psychologist trained or a social worker or an EFT Certifiety of t practitioner.

35:55 What that indicates is tapping is working. Often people will think, all this tapping thing made me really upset or distressed. It doesn't work. It actually means tapping's working really quickly and it's kind of peeling the layers of the onion fast. Tapping does work like that, but often that can take people by surprise, and that is when it's really important to go and get support by somebody that can be objective, ask questions, support you through that process. And of course if something has come up from the past, like a memory, and the reason why people do get memories is as the amig. Dealer kind of calms itself down, the hippo campus. The memory center that sits next door to that is able to sort of give out information when the AMIGN dealer is not.

36:38 Hijacking the body. So if the AMIG dealer has gone quiet, the hipper campus can then sometimes give memories up from childhood. It's kind of like the leg of the table where it's like, hey, this is related and you should tap on this, but the person may not be expecting that. They're probably two kind of flags to watch out for. Level of distress that you wonder where did this come from? All memories that pop back, they would be the two times I would even pop up. And see somewhere. Yeah, good to know. I think that's interesting to talk about the amigdala calming down and memories popping up, because I know a lot of people experience the same, for example, when they start meditation or anything like that, where you start to calm down your nervous system and then suddenly it's the hippo campus feels kind of free to bubble up all the old stuff from your childhood.

37:28 Very handy, Peter. I really appreciate the work that you do. I am so grateful to you for really blazing a trail in this space of making sure that there is the research to back up what many people have kind of known to be true and effective for a long time, but it's the way forward. You have programs and courses and things on your website, is that ic? Can I just give you a moment to share what people can access through your website and your trainings and things. Yeah, sure, lots of resources there, so just at my Peterstapleton dot com if people want a diagram of the tapping points or watch a video on how to tap. Lots of things there are free of course, can access anyone interested in training and.

38:11 You mentioned it. CAS Evidence based EFT dot com is where we host all of our programs and there's just you know, tapping for personal use if somebody just wants to sort of put them through, as well as live events of course, you know, coming back into putting some of those back on this year, that kind of thing, and of course access to research. So if anyone does want any of those. Papers we've talked about, you know, anything we've published, people loo can get access. Links are all there to my university page and things like that as well. So thank you. Yeah, anyone that wants to reach out and ask anything. We're always happy to answer. Fantastic, And I know psychologists do listen to the show as well, So psychologists who are interesting interested in adding this as a tool in the practice would definitely say go and check out doctor Peter Stapleton's website. And Peter, I can see behind you listeners can't beca this is a podcast, it's not a YouTube, but behind you. The Science of Tapping is your most recent book.

39:01 Yes, yes, yes, so that is an easy to read books, so don't let the word science put you off the science behind tapping. So that book just really took all the research to date that came out in twenty nineteen in an easy to understand kind of way, all split up in the sections, and lots of client studies from case studies from the trials are included in there, so you can actually read people's stories about what happened. So that's available anyway, hay House and. Audio too, so if anyone wants to listen to the Aussie voice. So I did read that one that's on audible. Very good, and I've just realized I don't yet have that in my library, so I'll be I'll be grabbing a copy of that straight after this recording. Peter, thank you so much for your time. I so appreciate it, and I really cannot wait to see what else unfolds in this space. I think it's really exciting.

39:49 Thanks so much, Cass, and we are very excited. There will be some stuff in the next twelve months, so we'll be happy to come back and share all the updates. I'll hold you to that. Thanks, Peter. If you find all of this just as interesting and exciting as I do. You can find out more about Peter and her work, as well as links to all of her trainings that she offers at her website Peterstapleton dot com. I'll put that link in the show notes. Her newest book, as she said, is called The Science Behind Tapping. You'll find it in all bookstores. It's published by Hayhouse and you can find Peter on social media as well as she's on Facebook and Instagram. Obviously, you can always connect with me over on Instagram at cast Done Underscore XO. My website is cast Done dot com and I will catch you on the next episode of Crappy to Happy. Crappy to Happy is presented by cast Dunn, produced by Davis Vilenski.

40:46 Audio production by Darcy Thompson. Listener