April 15, 2024

The Key to Successful Relationships with Dr Ann Kelley

The Key to Successful Relationships with Dr Ann Kelley
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The Key to Successful Relationships with Dr Ann Kelley
The Key to Successful Relationships with Dr Ann Kelley
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Season 11 Relationships Personal Growth & Healing

This week Cass talks with Dr Ann Kelley, licensed psychologist and co-host of the Therapist Uncensored podcast, about the importance of updating our understanding of attachment styles and the limitations of categorising ourselves and others. Ann proposes a more helpful approach of thinking about attachment as a spectrum. She introduces the idea of secure relating (as opposed to secure attachment), which involves understanding our own nervous system and how it impacts our interactions with others. Ann introduces the Modern Attachment Regulation Spectrum, helpfully using colours to represent different states of arousal: red for hyperarousal, blue for hypoarousal, and green for secure relating. She shares how our nervous system naturally responds to threats and connection, emphasising the need for self-awareness and compassion in order to create happy, healthy relationships in every area of our lives. She provides practical strategies for warming up or cooling down our nervous system and emphasises the relevance of this in every area of life: friendships, intimate relationships, parenting, work relationships, and the broader community.
Connect with Ann and order your copy of 'Secure Relating':www.therapistuncensored.comwww.instagram.com/therapist_uncensored_podcast
Connect with Cass:www.crappytohappypod.comhello@crappytohappypod.com 
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypodwww.tiktok.com/crappytohappypod
Join the free 7-day Happiness Challenge:www.cassdunn.com/happiness

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Transcript
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This is Crappita Happy and I am your host, Cas Dunn.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist. I'm mindfulness meditation teacher

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and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In

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this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent

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people who are experts in their field and who have

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something of value to share that will help you feel

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less crappy and more happy. Doctor Ann Kelly is a

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licensed psychologist and her partner, Sue Marriott, is a licensed

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clinical social worker, and together they are the co hosts

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of the Therapist Uncensored podcast. If you have any interest

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at all in improving your relationship with yourself, with your partner,

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with your children, with anybody in your life, then this

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is a must listen. Ann and Sue have written a

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new book which is out the end of this month.

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It's called Secure, Relating Holding your own in an insecure world.

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And what they have done is they have taken attachment

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theory and explained it in the context of modern neuroscience, so,

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in other words, your nervous system. This is such a

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fresh perspective on this idea of attachment categories. It is

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so relatable and so incredibly relevant to each and every

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one of us. I think most importantly what suean Ann

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have aimed to do is not just to help you

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as an individual to create a more secure way of

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relating in your own world and in your own life

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and in your own relationships, but to create a world

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of individuals who are able to more securely relate. We

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see so much polarization, so much conflict, and if individuals

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were able to access the capacity to recognize what's happening

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within themselves and to create a more secure way of relating,

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then perhaps we would not see some of the problems

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in the world that we do today. And Kelly is

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not only the therapist you wish you had, she is

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the best friend you wish you had. You're going to

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love her as much as I do. I am so

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excited to bring you my conversation with doctor A Kelly

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and Kelly, such a pleasure to have you on the

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crap at a Heavy podcast. Thank you for being here.

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I'm so excited to be here, I really am.

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And what we're talking about today is one of my

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favorite topics, which is the idea of attachment attachment relationships

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and how that actually relates to just ourselves and how

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we relate to the world and ourselves and other people.

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So to start with, I've talked about attachment a bit

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before on this podcast, but I myself have been guilty

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of talking about attachment in terms of categories. You know,

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you're an anxio, you've got an anxious attachment, you've got

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an avoid an attachment, and we think about it in

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those ways, and I think we simplify it down to

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these neat little categories. But of course that's not entirely

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accurate or helpful. And so what I would love to

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start with is what is a more helpful way of

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thinking about attachment? And you talk about secure relating as

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opposed to a secure attachment, could you just share with

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us why thinking about attachment in categories is perhaps not

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the most helpful, and how we can conceptualize it instead.

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I love that question. I think as humans, we want

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to categorize, right, we want to make sense of things.

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So it's a really natural process to say I am this,

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and this is what this means. And attachment. The concept

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of attachment came out of research, and when we're researching

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people and we're trying to understand differences, we have to

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put you in a category in order to compare you

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to other individuals. So it's a natural process. But as

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we all know, none of us live in one category,

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and certainly not four boxes. Right in attachment, there's four

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boxes that you can be categorized in and also love.

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Right now, there's part of me that really loves that

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social media is really caught onto attachment and you get

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so much information out there. The little research or distressing

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part of me though, is like, oh, people then will

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oversimplify it, yes, and then categorize themselves and everybody that

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I know and the partner and the exactly, and then

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we say, you're doing that thing right. And none of

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us act one way all the time. And the interesting

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thing is a lot of the research on adult attachment,

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which is different than and won't we won't get into

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all those boring details, but it's a different than than

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the childhood attachment research that we first started on, is

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that we also can act in different ways with different people.

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Right if you have and you mentioned why we are

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focusing on secure relating. Secure relating is about really connecting

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to oneself and understanding what part part of your nervous system,

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what part of your protection system you're actually coming from,

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and then in the relationship you're in, how does that

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impact you? And having deep understanding, you might notice in

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one romantic relationship you felt confident, secure, a little ambivalent

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all the time, and then you're in a relationship where

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now your attachment system is very activated and you find

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yourself very preoccupied and thinking about the person and feeling

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a lot of insecurity. And we tend to then pathologize

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ourselves or the other person and think, oh, it's I'm

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so messed up where they are. And when you can

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understand kind of your nervous system and the patterns we

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get into, it makes so much more sense and you

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can have more compassion for yourself and compassion for other people.

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So we my co host Sue Marriot and I have

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really found it much more useful to think about our

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attachment being on a spectrum. Yes, and the spectrum matters.

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It's not that we fly all over the place with

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each person. We generally have patterns. They're fairly predictable and

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there's a reason for them. But we find that to

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be a much more less pathologizing way to think of

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yourself and more accurate. And research has really really supported

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a lot of the recent research on attachment takes us

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into dimensions and not categories, and when you do that,

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you can have you take more time to understand what

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is really happening for you in the moment, as opposed to, oh,

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I'm preoccupied attachment, So that means I'm going to do

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this thing when that's not necessarily being connected to the threat,

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and why you're having threat in your body at the moment,

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and then what strategies you're using to deal with the threat.

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Yes, so to break that down a little bit, you

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talked about your nervous system. I think even that in

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itself is really key because I think and we think

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about attachment mostly out there and we see it on

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social media. We think about patterns of behavior. We think

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about habitual ways of thinking and feeling and relating, like, oh,

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somebody's are the very clinging and insecure and theeds lots

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of reassurance or they're avoided and they shut down, they're

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emotionally distant, And we think about those behaviors and the

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surface level. But you present in your book Secure Relating

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how attachment is a function of biology. It's a nervous

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system response. And I think that in itself is probably

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really new news to a lot of people. So can

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you talk a little bit more about that, about the

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neurobiology that is really underpinning these attachments patterns.

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And absolutely attachment comes from us as human beings, knowing

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we know a deep down that we need connection to survive.

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When we come into this world, we are not going

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to be able to survive unless we keep the people

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we love most close to us, and we have to learn.

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We're learning machines from the very from in you to on.

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We're learning machines about what keeps us safe in the

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particular environment and the particular system that we're born in,

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and we learn to communicate with those closest to us.

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Oftentimes it's our parents, not always, and we learn their systems,

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so our wiring, our nervous system actually, because it's not

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like we're just put into the world with a certain

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nervous system. We grow our nervous system from a utero

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on by connecting to those we love the most, and

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that informs us what we pay attention to, what kind

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of information we should take in, what kind of emotions

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we should express. It tells us, Oh, if I cry

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a lot with my mom, she tends to get so

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overwhelmed and anxious. It's a bad idea. And as I

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notice I cry too much, I lose connection and that

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feels really scary, and it sends information to keep my

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mom close. I'm going to shut down parts of my

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nervous system, my response the way I take an information

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and say tears are not so safe, I'm going to

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cut it off. And we really do actually have ways

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and studies on the brain and information processing that if

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you had learned that emotions are actually threatening, that you

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will take in less emotional information, you will attend to

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it less. And if you start to feel emotions in

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somebody else or yourself, you have an internal threat response

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to it that you don't know that's not conscious. And

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so that's when we talk about, let's see dismissing attachment.

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If you've developed this idea that emotions are scary, they're

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not safe, they push people away, I get shamed, I'm

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seen as weak. I'm like, I'm not going to do that.

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Forget that, and we kind of shut that system down,

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and it really impacts our nervous system and how we

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relate in all relationships that are important to us as

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we grow older.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, So that's interesting too, just when we

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think about our threat response that what is the threat

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is the threat to the connection because we are fundamentally

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wide to connect and anything that might impact that ability

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to connect when we're very small and we don't even

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have words to describe it, we learn to modulate or

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you know, kind of modify our emotional response to preserve

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the connection. So you also talk a lot about this

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connection and these protection systems again neuro biologically and conceptualizing

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attachment patterns attachment styles. I know we shouldn't, we're getting

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out of categories, but those attachment kind of patterns that

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we go into as being driven from our other a

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connection or our protection system.

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Right right, because we're both what you said, we're going

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to want to connect, but our nervous system is all

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set up to protect us first and to say, like

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so it's assessing if I need to protect myself, I

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need to connect, And that's how they're related, right, And

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so if I need to connect to you and I

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want to connect to you and my emotions overwhelm you,

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then my protection system goes up and we don't even

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know it, and our body activates in these really automatic

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ways to be able to stay connected to you. And

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we learn that in partnerships, we learn that as parents,

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as children, and so it's a lot of it's very

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important to start understanding how your particular nervous system develops

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over time and how it wires and how it understands emotions,

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and to start recognizing what makes you feel threatened and

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in what ways when you do feel threatened, how you

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act out. You mentioned, you know, we are getting away

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from categories, right, but that doesn't mean that we don't

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really want to understand through the idea of these categories,

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which strategies we've learned most because most of us have

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learned a particular way that's worked for us. Yes, right,

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And so we use colors as a way to kind

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of do pathologize it. So we talk about the continuums.

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If you have learned, let's say, in another way, we've learned, Okay,

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my mom is there a lot for me, but she's

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really inconsistent, maybe she has a substance abuse problem, or

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she's anxious herself, And so I get a lot of

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feelings of connection, but I lose it a lot too, right,

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Like she's there, she's not there, or he's there, my

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father's there, not there. So what happens is I will

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learn my nervous system learns I need to watch real closely.

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I need to watch for information that the person I

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care about's there. And I need to also activate my

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emotions a lot more. I have to act. So that's

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where we fall in. The more preoccupied where people talk about.

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We call that red means our whole nervous system is

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more heightenedly aware. We start to be preoccupied with any

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signs of loss or disappointment, or somebody coming close to

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you but you can't quite trust are they going to stay?

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So what happens is your whole nervous system actually stays

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on what we call more of a hyper arousal. So

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it really does effect when we're talking about these categories,

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what we're really talking about is how your nervous system

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responds to relationships in anything that could bring you closer

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to connection or throw you in protection because you think

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you're going to lose it. Does that make.

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Sense, Yeah, it makes perfect sense. I think listeners will

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be able to understand that as well. And so what

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happens then, and this is a really interesting thing about

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neurobiology in the nervous system, and what we're sort of

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understanding now in the world of psychology and neuroscience is

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all this stuff about how our nervous system responds to

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situations that we might not even be consciously aware of.

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But then of course our brain comes in and overlays

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a story and has all sorts of reasons why we

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are behaving the way we are, or we think the

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way we do, or we're doing the things that we do.

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And I feel like in my experience, I don't know

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if it's different for you, And but with such cerebral creatures,

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with such analytical, intellectual kind of beings, we like to

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think everything through and have a logical, rational reason for everything.

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And I just this idea of actually relating to your

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body and your nervous system. It's kind of new for

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a lot of people, right, yes, but very cut off.

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It took me a long time myself to actually be

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able to know what was going on in my body

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and what was I feeling. I was very neck up

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kind of a person for a long time. So that's

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a different I think that's just important for people to

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understand because we go straight into our thinking mind and

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we can have all sorts of explanations about why we

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think or feel the way that we do. But it's

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important to understand, right that sometimes that's just our brain

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making a story. Yes, I love how you sure right

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to explain what's happening in our buddy, which we're not

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actually really aware of.

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I love. That's one reason why I think it's so

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important to really dive deep into what you understand about

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your body, because we do. We make up stories.

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You know.

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We used to think like if, like if I shot

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off a loud cannon behind you right now, if I

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was able to do that and you started running, you

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would think, oh, I got scared, so I ran. But

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the truth is research shows your body instinctually felt that

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as threat, and you ran, and then you told the

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story that you were scared. Yes, and so we're right.

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We make up all these stories about what we're feeling

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and what's going on, but we don't even touch of

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what we're feeling, but we feel that. I think that's

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what's so important is we feel threat, but we don't

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it's oftentimes not even in our awareness, but we feel

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something and then guess what our partner or our child

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or somebody around us, the person of the opposite political

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belief is right there. And so now we're gonna tell

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the story. I'm feeling this because you're doing that. Yes,

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I feel this because you do that. And if and

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then we think the answers, if you would quit doing that,

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I would quit feeling.

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This, and it I'll be fine, and well, I'll be fine.

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The answer is so simple. And what's so painful about

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that is we also do that to ourselves. I know better.

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How often do you tell yourself I know better than

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to do AB and C. I know this time when

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I start to fight with my husband or wife, I know,

284
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I start to raise my voice and I get dead

285
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A da da. And this time I'm gonna go talk

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about this topic that we've talked about a thousand times,

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and we fight every time. But this time, because I'm determined,

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I'm gonna do it differently. I'm gonna start this conversation

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and lo and behold, by the end of it, we're

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in the exact same fight. And a lot of times

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it's because we're not really actually attuned to the threat

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that's in our body and what's making us, what that

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threat is doing to us, and how we come across

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and how we send signs of threat because we're so

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focused on the story outside. I was mistreated, and so

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we'll start the story with something that completely threatens the

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other person. I see this a lot in couples and

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somebody that may have a history where they've had to

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really really watch their environment. They tend to be what

300
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we in a category called preoccupied or anxiously attached, sometimes embivalent,

301
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and so they've learned I've got to watch for any

302
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signs of disappointment, and I need to correct it really

303
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fast because I'm feeling this threat in my body, and

304
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the threat is somebody's gonna leave me. I can't count

305
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on you. And if your body feels that, guess what

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you're going to look for. And research would really show

307
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that when your body has developed in a more upregulating,

308
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preoccupied way, you do take in more information of the

309
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of the emotions around you, and so you feel more disappointment,

310
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and so you're going to point to you know, you

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let me down because you didn't text me all day

312
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long and you know how much. And so what happens

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is is that you feel the threat in your body

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of disappointment and loss and hurt, but you can't really

315
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name that. So you tend to complain and then you

316
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make accusations. If you would have done this, I wouldn't

317
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feel that threat. And so as we get more in

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tune to oh, this threatens my body, and this is

319
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how I can tell I'm threatened. And why we talk

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about secure relating is you can't just change your body.

321
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You can't say you know what, I'm not going to

322
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get activated anymore, if only if only I know the story. Now,

323
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I've learned about attachment and i know that's my attachment

324
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style and I'm just not going to do that. It

325
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doesn't work because our body activates. But if you can

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retell that story. I'm feeling this pressure to walk in

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there and tell my husband how much he disappointed me,

328
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and I can't stop myself because I'm going to feel

329
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better once I do right. And then you walk in

330
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and you accuse somebody you've let me down. It's not

331
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going to get what you need, which is the connection.

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And that's what's important. You need to know that they

333
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care and that they love you, and that they didn't

334
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actually call it right you or do whatever it is

335
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that you feel the complaint about. It has also something

336
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to do with their style of relating. You have to

337
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remind yourself they exist, because when you're more so secure,

338
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relating is not about feeling secure. It's about being aware

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of yourself, about being aware of your own threats, finding

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your own grounded sense in the moment. So we use

341
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the spectrum both of attachment but also in the moment.

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What state are you in? Oh, I'm in that red

343
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I can feel it because I feel my pressure to

344
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walk in. I feel the pressure to stump up the

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stairs because my child just went up there and slammed

346
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the door, right, and so now I am compelled to

347
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run up that stairs, and of course I should, because

348
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he's disrespecting me. Right. But if you find a secure

349
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way and you go this is threatening to me. Let

350
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me find my secure self in this moment, move to

351
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what we call the green more secure stuff, and then

352
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it's going to be okay. And we have you know,

353
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it's important to develop strategies to be able to do that.

354
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Then when you walk in and say you disappointed me,

355
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you're not saying you screwed up. You're saying I find

356
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myself feeling a B or C. Can you talk to

357
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me about this? And now you haven't sent the whole

358
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threat message. What happens with couples so often or parenting

359
00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:38.039
is we don't even realize that we are sending through

360
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how we neurologically relate to each other. We're always connecting

361
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and we're always sending, like we call it neurowifi communication.

362
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And if somebody maybe has an attachment style that they say,

363
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I got to shut down emotions, motions are not good.

364
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Right underneath that, there's a lot of shame about having motions.

365
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And often time somebody in a more dismissing kind of

366
00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:06.400
bluestyle also is like really activated by thinking they let

367
00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:10.160
somebody down, right, and so they look for signs of

368
00:21:10.279 --> 00:21:12.400
letting somebody down. So when the wife runs in and

369
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says you let me down, their protection system goes up,

370
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not their connection, and now they're defending themselves. And so

371
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if he or she can understand, oh, my wife is

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activated instead of this is about me, and they can understand,

373
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we can have so much deeper compassion because we can

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feel the threat in our own body. That was kind

375
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of a long answer, isn't it.

376
00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:35.200
No? It was really good. That was such a good answer.

377
00:21:35.240 --> 00:21:37.920
I think that's so well explained. So I what I'm

378
00:21:37.960 --> 00:21:40.839
hearing is that this you know, all of this is

379
00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:45.880
going to really start from cultivating some self awareness, being

380
00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:48.279
able to you a big fan of mindfulness, and being

381
00:21:48.279 --> 00:21:52.240
able to just tune in to our own experience in

382
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the moment. But I want to go a little bit

383
00:21:55.640 --> 00:21:59.640
deeper and into this color thing. Right, So the modern

384
00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:03.519
attached regulation spectrum, I believe is what you have called it.

385
00:22:04.279 --> 00:22:06.880
And I have talked on this podcast in the past.

386
00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:09.400
So if somebody's listening and hasn't heard this or isn't

387
00:22:09.400 --> 00:22:11.200
aware of it, I've talked a bit about the window

388
00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:13.359
of tolerance in the past and this idea of the

389
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:16.359
zone of optimal arousal and hyper and hypo, and so

390
00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:20.039
it sounds like this is it's kind of overlaying this

391
00:22:20.119 --> 00:22:24.480
window of tolerance model, isn't it, onto this what's happening

392
00:22:24.519 --> 00:22:29.200
in our attachment system? First of all, I really think

393
00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:33.039
that's just brilliant and so relevant. And so can we

394
00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:35.319
talk about the colors. You talked about red being going

395
00:22:35.400 --> 00:22:39.680
up into hyper arousal or that anxious sort of highly

396
00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:43.160
angry maybe activated, highly activated response, and then you talked

397
00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:46.839
about blue going down into hypo, right, So this is

398
00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:51.519
more the cut off withdrawn, dismissive kind of response, and

399
00:22:51.559 --> 00:22:54.240
in the green is where we can relate securely, when

400
00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:59.200
we can feel regulated and calm and centered, grounded in ourselves,

401
00:22:59.240 --> 00:23:01.519
in our body, and be able to respond with a

402
00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:07.640
little bit more awareness and just calm, mindful way. I've

403
00:23:07.720 --> 00:23:13.880
got that right. Excellent, Yeah, tick for me, Tick for me.

404
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:17.759
I've understood that perfectly. So can we talk about because

405
00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:20.200
what you do talk about in your book, and I

406
00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:23.200
love this, it's this idea that not that you are

407
00:23:24.279 --> 00:23:25.960
dismissive or you're preoccupied, but.

408
00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:31.160
Maybe you lean towards blue, or maybe you lean towards red,

409
00:23:31.880 --> 00:23:35.599
and having this self awareness, having this understanding of where

410
00:23:35.720 --> 00:23:38.599
you tend to go, you know, what tends.

411
00:23:38.279 --> 00:23:40.279
To activate you and where you go. I think that's

412
00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:44.200
so useful and so relevant. Can you talk a little

413
00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:47.079
bit about that, about what it means? And then I

414
00:23:47.079 --> 00:23:48.680
guess you know, the second part of that is and

415
00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:52.559
what are some things that people can do once they've

416
00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:54.759
noticed that, to be able to bring them back into

417
00:23:54.839 --> 00:23:58.160
a state in that green zone where they are able

418
00:23:58.160 --> 00:23:59.319
to relate more effectively.

419
00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:03.480
Well, you did such a good job describing it. Let

420
00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:05.839
me just talk mint that. But that was really lovely

421
00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:11.200
and so exciting that you that it came clear enough

422
00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:12.160
to you because.

423
00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:15.240
That's oh, I've just like using that. I'm teaching that

424
00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:16.119
to everybody I know.

425
00:24:16.359 --> 00:24:17.079
I love that.

426
00:24:17.079 --> 00:24:18.039
That's just perfect.

427
00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:23.440
That means so much. Well. Yes, the reason that we

428
00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:28.519
chose the color colors again is to also colors we represent.

429
00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:32.680
We can see colors emotionally, right, we can feel them emotionally.

430
00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:36.079
And again this is based on early early learning, right.

431
00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:38.240
And by the way, it's also really important, and we

432
00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:41.039
talked about in the book. Our early learning comes not

433
00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:43.799
just from the relationship we have with our parents. It

434
00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:47.119
comes from the systems we were raised in. If we

435
00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:51.440
were raised in a very threatening system or a system

436
00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:54.079
that threatens our race, you know it's going to impact

437
00:24:54.079 --> 00:24:57.119
through epigenetics. It's going to come down. And what gets

438
00:24:57.160 --> 00:25:01.160
activated through our parents and our own is are we

439
00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:04.880
start with already a groundwork of how to keep yourself

440
00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:07.960
safe based on your history. And again, so how do

441
00:25:07.960 --> 00:25:10.960
you keep yourself safe and connected in a world and

442
00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:14.200
how the world treats you? And so generally our nervous

443
00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:17.680
system does work in kind of two directions to keep

444
00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:22.119
us safe. Do we run and flee because we can

445
00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:23.759
see the thread and we need to run or do

446
00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:28.680
we go more into sympathetic high arousal states. And so

447
00:25:28.759 --> 00:25:31.000
that's why we called that red because we can think

448
00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:34.079
about it being hot, and yet our activation just we're

449
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:35.920
not on and off. We don't just have an on

450
00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:38.440
and off switch. Right, I'm sitting here and I'm talking

451
00:25:38.440 --> 00:25:40.759
to you, and and we call the secure state green

452
00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:44.559
because we think of green as flow. It means we've

453
00:25:44.599 --> 00:25:46.759
stopped it maybe a light if you think of a light,

454
00:25:47.319 --> 00:25:51.680
and now green is going and we can flow. We

455
00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:54.039
can feel kind of confident that nobody's going to hopefully

456
00:25:54.079 --> 00:25:57.039
run the red light. You know that we can keep going.

457
00:25:57.079 --> 00:25:59.920
It's a flow state. And when we're in a flow

458
00:26:00.039 --> 00:26:02.599
state in the middle of the spectrum, we know we're

459
00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:05.319
there and we all get there. Fortunately, most of us

460
00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:08.839
can spend more time in that, and that means that

461
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:13.759
we can find curiosity. It means that we feel close

462
00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:18.480
to ourselves and other people, right, and that it doesn't

463
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:21.279
mean that we're not activated. It just means we feel connected. Still.

464
00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:24.119
We can recognize it. If we start to feel threat,

465
00:26:24.759 --> 00:26:27.440
our body starts to get activated. We start to become

466
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:31.000
more vigilant. We see the surroundings, and so we go red,

467
00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:34.240
which means we activate up. And again we don't go

468
00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:36.519
from zero to one hundred. We might go from a

469
00:26:36.519 --> 00:26:38.319
little red and a little you know, get a little

470
00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:42.039
bit different colors. And some of us, based on our history,

471
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:46.160
live more in one color than the next. Right, So

472
00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:47.960
some of us, if we've had a lot of trauma,

473
00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:51.440
we might be staying in a really hyper state of

474
00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:54.960
arousal or a really low state of cutoff. And so

475
00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:58.279
the other direction is the blue, and we call blue

476
00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:02.400
because we think of it as cooler, a little colder, right,

477
00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:04.759
And so some of us kind of live a little

478
00:27:04.759 --> 00:27:07.720
bit more disconnected, you know, more in the head not

479
00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:10.440
the body, and we become aware of a body when

480
00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:13.240
we get really activated, but otherwise we can kind of

481
00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:16.640
be cool, and that's more of a parasympathetic kind of

482
00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:20.440
drop down down, regulating kind of way. And so the

483
00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:23.079
left of the continuum is blue. But again, what we

484
00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:26.319
love to ask people to think about is what are

485
00:27:26.359 --> 00:27:30.319
your strategies when you get upset in a relationship and

486
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:33.599
where do you live? Because they're different things. Some of

487
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:36.960
us live where we can feel the value of relationships

488
00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:40.839
and we're feeling comfortable with our desire to connect to

489
00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:43.519
other people and need other people. Some of us have

490
00:27:43.559 --> 00:27:47.160
been brought up to need other people as weak, ridiculous.

491
00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:51.599
Being emotional is you know something that's to be degraded.

492
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:54.319
And so we might actually live really far in the

493
00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:58.680
blue and not know it, because oftentimes the problem is

494
00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:00.920
if we live really far in the blue, we can

495
00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:03.920
think we feel really secure. So being in the green

496
00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:06.319
does not mean you feel secure, because sometimes if you're

497
00:28:06.359 --> 00:28:09.000
way over than blue, you feel so secure you kind

498
00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:10.720
of know better than anybody, and in fact you don't

499
00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:13.720
really need anybody because you're so independent, right, But to

500
00:28:13.839 --> 00:28:16.559
recognize that that might be if you look at your

501
00:28:16.599 --> 00:28:19.200
patterns in the world. Do you reach out when you're upset?

502
00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:23.400
Do you call a friend? Do you feel comfortable crying?

503
00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:27.680
Do you feel comfortable having your needs for other people

504
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:31.960
that feel safe? And if the answer to that is no, way,

505
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:34.920
you might realize that you kind of spend more time

506
00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:37.920
and live way far in the blue and you asked

507
00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:40.880
about strategies, and that would be if you can recognize

508
00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:44.640
actually feeling secure and thinking I don't need anybody is

509
00:28:44.680 --> 00:28:47.720
actually a sign. This is sometimes really hard for people

510
00:28:47.759 --> 00:28:51.680
in my office. It's actually a sign of insecurity. Yeah right,

511
00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:55.960
it's not if we think about attachment security. Yes, because

512
00:28:56.160 --> 00:28:59.200
we do need people. And the truth is your body

513
00:28:59.240 --> 00:29:02.640
knows better. Your body knows you need people even if

514
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:05.160
your mind has told you told you that you don't.

515
00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:08.079
So that's why if you live really far in the blue,

516
00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:09.680
you might have heart trouble.

517
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:10.640
Yeah right.

518
00:29:10.920 --> 00:29:15.440
You know men often have been socialized in a direction

519
00:29:15.559 --> 00:29:17.680
to live more in the blue. Yeah, we will have

520
00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:21.079
heart attacks earlier, things like that, because you can be

521
00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:23.920
lonely but not feel lonely. You don't feel the experience

522
00:29:23.960 --> 00:29:28.400
of lonely because you've cut that need for other people off.

523
00:29:28.680 --> 00:29:31.319
But your body knows you need it, so your body

524
00:29:31.480 --> 00:29:34.440
is staying. We talked about that protection system. Your body's

525
00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:37.160
stained in more of an alarm state, but you don't

526
00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:40.039
even know it because you cut your awareness off to it. Yeah.

527
00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:41.359
That's scary, isn't it.

528
00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:41.880
It can be.

529
00:29:42.119 --> 00:29:45.240
Yeah, it's so true though. And when you were saying

530
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:48.160
do I feel comfortable expressing emotions? I think it's one

531
00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:50.400
of those questions also, like how comfortable are you with

532
00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:52.640
a of the people, like being in the presence of all

533
00:29:52.839 --> 00:29:56.319
the people's emotions, because that can be a sign as well,

534
00:29:56.440 --> 00:29:58.960
kind of like just don't bring that to me, shut

535
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:01.400
it down, reacting you being ridiculous.

536
00:30:01.880 --> 00:30:05.400
That's so true way to put it. Yeah, I often

537
00:30:05.559 --> 00:30:10.000
see interesting when I see couples. It's not uncommon for

538
00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:13.519
couples to get together, and whether somebody's kind of already

539
00:30:13.559 --> 00:30:15.279
in the red and blue stage or they've kind of

540
00:30:16.240 --> 00:30:20.359
through through connection, we might push ourselves further and further there, right,

541
00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:24.920
And oftentimes it can be somebody that's living in the

542
00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:30.039
red is over sensitive mm hmm, right, overcritical, over sensitive,

543
00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:33.000
and somebody that lives more in the blue thinks they're

544
00:30:33.079 --> 00:30:35.960
ridiculous and things like that, and like if they would

545
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:38.240
just be happy and quit complaining, our life would be

546
00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:41.400
so much better. It's just really it's the complaining that's

547
00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:45.400
the problem. It's it's not it's not my need for connection.

548
00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:48.920
I don't need anything. I'm perfectly happy, And yet you

549
00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:52.119
have the spouse over there going we are not connected

550
00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:52.559
at all.

551
00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:57.359
That's a tricky one, isn't that? Like? Because how without

552
00:30:57.680 --> 00:31:00.839
port I mean, how do they make sense of that?

553
00:31:01.319 --> 00:31:04.759
How do they figure out who's right in that when

554
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:06.920
actually both of them are probably you know, if one's

555
00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:08.359
up in the red, and one's up in the blue

556
00:31:08.359 --> 00:31:11.000
and down in the blue, and neither of them are

557
00:31:11.079 --> 00:31:13.720
in the green. How do they resolve that?

558
00:31:14.599 --> 00:31:18.079
You know? This is how soon I ended up developing

559
00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:23.559
our framework, honestly is sitting with individuals in those situations

560
00:31:23.720 --> 00:31:28.400
and wanting to help them understand the science of human

561
00:31:28.480 --> 00:31:33.000
relating and to have those light bulbs go on without

562
00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:37.680
being about their particular patterns and stuck problems. And honestly,

563
00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:41.119
those that kind of live more in the blue often

564
00:31:41.240 --> 00:31:43.920
like logic and science, that's the information that feels comfortable.

565
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:46.720
So you can come to them and say, let me

566
00:31:46.839 --> 00:31:51.160
help you understand the science behind this disconnected state that

567
00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:53.240
you're in, and you take the shame out of it,

568
00:31:53.319 --> 00:31:56.960
like this is your body. But then I think through

569
00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:00.880
deep compassion and understanding, when people start recognizing that these

570
00:32:00.920 --> 00:32:04.799
interactions between them is actually a desire to be close

571
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:09.000
and connected. It's not a desire to be criticized or

572
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:12.640
pushed away. Right, And so like the individual that is

573
00:32:12.839 --> 00:32:16.000
overwhelmed by emotions, they don't even recognize it an interesting

574
00:32:16.039 --> 00:32:19.279
way to help somebody in the blue recognize that they're

575
00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:22.359
actually activated by the idea of intimacy and threat because

576
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:24.920
sometimes they're like, I'm fine. I would be so intimate

577
00:32:24.920 --> 00:32:27.680
with her or him if they would just quit complaining.

578
00:32:27.920 --> 00:32:30.200
And I can say, well, are they complaining right this second,

579
00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:32.440
and how are you feeling? Do me a favor, turn

580
00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:36.960
around and look her directly in the eyes and tell

581
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:40.240
me how you feel. And it's not uncommon for somebody

582
00:32:40.279 --> 00:32:41.880
really far in the blue will look at me. Their

583
00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:44.279
eyes get huge and like, what are you talking about?

584
00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:45.799
I don't need like it's ridiculous, I don't need to

585
00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:47.759
do this. This is just wo wo right, I said, no,

586
00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:50.279
we're actually talking about science here. I want you to

587
00:32:50.279 --> 00:32:53.240
pay attention. Do you feel threat? Now, go and just

588
00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:56.160
look her directly in the eyes and see what it feels.

589
00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:58.720
And they can feel the desire to run out of

590
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:02.559
the room sometimes, And then I can compassionately say that,

591
00:33:02.680 --> 00:33:04.039
isn't you not loving her?

592
00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:04.400
Is it?

593
00:33:04.599 --> 00:33:07.519
He goes No, I said, it's really scary for you,

594
00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:10.599
and what you really want is to be able to

595
00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:13.000
have closeness. And so what I'm saying is, I think

596
00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:16.359
as we depathologize it, if we take the shame out

597
00:33:16.359 --> 00:33:19.440
of that and we make it, we help somebody understand it,

598
00:33:19.480 --> 00:33:22.160
that is a really a natural way of being based

599
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:25.200
on their history. That's when that person gets more interested

600
00:33:25.240 --> 00:33:27.279
in their own history. If I walked in with that

601
00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:29.880
same person and said, let's talk about your childhood, tell

602
00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:32.079
me all the hurts you've had, You're not going to

603
00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:35.079
keep that person in the therapy chair very often. But

604
00:33:35.240 --> 00:33:38.160
when you bring the science to them and you start

605
00:33:38.200 --> 00:33:40.839
drawing these pictures, and that's how we developed. We started

606
00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:45.519
drawing these pictures and showing when you do this, when

607
00:33:45.519 --> 00:33:47.319
you in the middle of a fight, you walk out

608
00:33:48.079 --> 00:33:50.440
and don't tell your wife or your husband that you're

609
00:33:50.480 --> 00:33:54.079
coming back. What do they do? Right? They're texting and

610
00:33:54.119 --> 00:33:57.559
calling and you see this dynamic. But when you try

611
00:33:57.559 --> 00:33:59.240
to help them understand, all they're trained to do is

612
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:01.319
not reject, to try to calm their body down, and

613
00:34:01.359 --> 00:34:04.319
you can't. Those emotions are too much for you. And

614
00:34:04.359 --> 00:34:06.960
that's understandable. And then you can talk in a way

615
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:09.079
where they can realize, oh, no, I really do want

616
00:34:09.079 --> 00:34:11.760
to come back. I just can't tolerate those hard emotions.

617
00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:15.199
Then they start, honestly, guess they start getting you've probably

618
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:18.880
seen it yourself. They start getting really curious about their

619
00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:21.079
own fear of it and their own desire for it.

620
00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:25.440
Oftentimes in couples, I often need to start with somebody

621
00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:27.119
a little bit more carefully that's more in the blue

622
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:29.599
than red, because it's often the person that lives in

623
00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:32.079
a more preccupied state that's brought the person into couple's

624
00:34:32.119 --> 00:34:35.480
therapy because they're smart enough to see the distress and

625
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:37.639
to say, you know, her asking you to come or

626
00:34:37.719 --> 00:34:40.599
him asking you to come, is their desire to be

627
00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:43.880
close to you. It's not their desire to disconnect. And

628
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:47.239
their partner will say yes. And so now we're appealing

629
00:34:47.320 --> 00:34:50.760
to the desire for connection, and we're moving away from

630
00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:55.639
criticizing and shame and blame, and now people can have compassion.

631
00:34:56.599 --> 00:34:59.840
And what's so beautiful too, is when that starts happening

632
00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:03.280
and then the person that's been so disconnected gets more

633
00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:06.920
connected to themselves. They see their partner like you notice

634
00:35:06.920 --> 00:35:09.119
as you're talking about that, do you see what she's doing?

635
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:12.119
And her whole body's warmed up. And so what we're

636
00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:14.840
becoming more aware of is trying to help them understand

637
00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:20.199
their own threat response in the moment and to become

638
00:35:20.239 --> 00:35:24.119
more caring of it and compassionate and desirous and just

639
00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:27.440
teaching somebody if you would just write before you close

640
00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:30.039
the door, say I'll be back watch them. What would

641
00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:33.800
that be like? You know, And these simple things that

642
00:35:33.880 --> 00:35:36.679
you can do. And what we talk about is trying

643
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:39.239
to warm your system up if you're in the blue state,

644
00:35:39.400 --> 00:35:41.559
and trying to cool your system off if you're in

645
00:35:41.599 --> 00:35:44.400
the red. And that's what secure relating is about. It's

646
00:35:44.440 --> 00:35:47.840
about learning, and we talk a lot about specific strategies

647
00:35:48.280 --> 00:35:51.760
to learn how to bring that warmth in or cool

648
00:35:51.800 --> 00:35:55.000
those systems in so that the ultimate goal is connection.

649
00:35:55.719 --> 00:35:59.159
And we often find I often find as couple start

650
00:35:59.239 --> 00:36:02.000
learning this, they a sense of humor around it and

651
00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:05.119
they quit going into those stories you were talking about.

652
00:36:05.239 --> 00:36:06.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know.

653
00:36:06.519 --> 00:36:10.000
She's always criticizing me and he's always withdrawing, and they

654
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:12.320
start telling new stories. Yeah.

655
00:36:12.519 --> 00:36:16.199
It's so helpful. As I'm listening to your talk, Adam,

656
00:36:16.599 --> 00:36:19.760
I'm thinking that this is not just intimate partner relationships.

657
00:36:19.840 --> 00:36:23.199
This is it right, So this is going to play

658
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:26.159
out across with our friends and in the workplace, in

659
00:36:26.280 --> 00:36:29.400
the family. So it's really helpful whether you're in a

660
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:33.599
relationship or not, to develop some understanding of what these

661
00:36:33.719 --> 00:36:37.960
kinds of patterns are or how your nervous system responds absolutely.

662
00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:41.000
In fact, I think what's so important is that secure

663
00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:45.280
relating is about relating to yourself first and then any

664
00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:50.559
primary person close to you, whether it's your child, your boss,

665
00:36:50.800 --> 00:36:53.159
and it's about being able. If you're aware of your

666
00:36:53.199 --> 00:36:57.079
own system and you learn to relate to yourself and

667
00:36:57.119 --> 00:37:00.840
to other people and to send this idea that you're

668
00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:05.039
a safe person and communicate security, it immediately impacts the

669
00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:09.840
nervous system of everybody around you. Right. We had a

670
00:37:09.880 --> 00:37:12.719
friend who interviewed on the podcast. It was wonderful. She

671
00:37:12.760 --> 00:37:15.079
said that she realized she kind of lived more in

672
00:37:15.079 --> 00:37:18.000
the blue and she has had a teenage daughter at

673
00:37:18.039 --> 00:37:21.480
the time, and she realized when she came in from

674
00:37:21.559 --> 00:37:24.199
work she was super practical and she noticed a connection

675
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:26.960
and she had really thought about warming up. We talk

676
00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:29.400
about warm up your system before you walk in. It's

677
00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:32.039
been five minutes before you go in there, and just

678
00:37:32.239 --> 00:37:34.800
start thinking about each person and warming them up, right,

679
00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:38.079
And so she walked in and instead of just kind

680
00:37:38.119 --> 00:37:41.239
of being in her own self, she expressed joy when

681
00:37:41.239 --> 00:37:44.000
she saw her child. She lit up and said, oh my,

682
00:37:44.039 --> 00:37:46.559
and she she said she could not believe it. She

683
00:37:46.599 --> 00:37:50.639
almost cried about how her daughter responded differently. Right, so

684
00:37:50.679 --> 00:37:54.199
instead of interpreting her daughter as just a typical adolescent

685
00:37:54.239 --> 00:37:57.039
who doesn't care whether she's home, she lit up and

686
00:37:57.079 --> 00:37:58.960
when she walked in and said, I'm so happy to

687
00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:00.920
see you. She said, your daughter first looked at or

688
00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:04.599
like she had three heads, but then but then really

689
00:38:04.679 --> 00:38:08.039
warmed up, and it really impacted that relationship.

690
00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:11.679
Yeah, it's so true, and I think anybody listening can

691
00:38:11.719 --> 00:38:15.079
probably bring to mind. There are just people you have

692
00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:19.079
in your life who feel safe, yes to be around,

693
00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:22.760
and it's nice to think about. You know, we could

694
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:25.239
all be more of that kind of person. Not just

695
00:38:25.280 --> 00:38:28.360
good for ourselves, but it's good for everybody around us

696
00:38:28.679 --> 00:38:31.039
to be that person who is kind of safe to

697
00:38:31.039 --> 00:38:31.480
be around.

698
00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:34.800
And you could be that person today a little bit more. Yeah,

699
00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:37.239
that's what it's like, trying the idea of if I've

700
00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:39.320
lived in a very red state most of my life,

701
00:38:39.400 --> 00:38:41.199
thinking all of a sudden, I've got to work really

702
00:38:41.239 --> 00:38:44.920
hard to have a secure attachment. That's a long road,

703
00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:47.679
but to say today I can engage in a more

704
00:38:47.719 --> 00:38:52.320
secure related way, and over time that actually does what

705
00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:55.800
we call that does move your nervous system. Towards the

706
00:38:56.039 --> 00:38:58.719
more calm because as you do it, guess what, people

707
00:38:58.760 --> 00:39:02.440
start responding to you better. Mm hmmm. And as they

708
00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:04.360
respond to your better, you go, oh wait, they do

709
00:39:04.440 --> 00:39:06.960
care about me. And so it's this interaction thing that

710
00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:09.360
can make so much of a difference. If you respond

711
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:12.199
to your boss at work is really harsh in a

712
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:16.559
different way with curiosity and more of a secure, connected,

713
00:39:16.599 --> 00:39:20.519
grounded self instead of a reactionary self, then you literally

714
00:39:20.599 --> 00:39:23.119
do have more empowerment in that relationship.

715
00:39:23.719 --> 00:39:27.880
Yeah, I'm just wondering, and before we before you go,

716
00:39:28.119 --> 00:39:30.880
are you able to suggest because I know that people

717
00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:32.360
are listening right now and going, oh, that's my un

718
00:39:32.400 --> 00:39:34.239
blue like they're already categorizing.

719
00:39:33.719 --> 00:39:35.679
Them, are their partner?

720
00:39:36.199 --> 00:39:38.480
Yeah exactly, Oh god, that's my up in the road

721
00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:42.000
all the time. Are you able to share just a

722
00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:45.000
few ideas obviously where you know the secure relating I'm

723
00:39:45.039 --> 00:39:47.239
recommending it to every single person I know. I'll probably

724
00:39:47.400 --> 00:39:51.840
give out copies. But can you share with people some

725
00:39:51.960 --> 00:39:54.920
ideas for when you talk about warming up your system,

726
00:39:55.000 --> 00:39:56.880
like what does that look like? What are things people

727
00:39:56.920 --> 00:39:58.880
can do? Or if you kind of run a bit hot,

728
00:39:58.920 --> 00:40:01.760
if you lean red, like what are some really practical

729
00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:04.239
things that people can do just once they're aware of that,

730
00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:08.239
to cool that down a bit on a more just

731
00:40:08.280 --> 00:40:09.280
a regular basis.

732
00:40:10.159 --> 00:40:12.800
Oh, such a great question. One of the things is

733
00:40:12.840 --> 00:40:16.440
to really develop a deeper insight about the activation your

734
00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:19.599
body in a non shaming way. I cannot stress that enough,

735
00:40:19.639 --> 00:40:23.239
in a compassionate way. Quit judging yourself. And honestly, what

736
00:40:23.559 --> 00:40:25.760
often happens is we either judge ourselves or we judge

737
00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:29.599
the other person. And so deep self compassion is one

738
00:40:29.639 --> 00:40:32.599
place to start. I do this for a very good reason.

739
00:40:33.119 --> 00:40:36.360
And by the way, you learned your strategies are very healthy.

740
00:40:36.519 --> 00:40:38.719
When we learn these strategies, we learn it because we

741
00:40:38.760 --> 00:40:41.440
want to be in our environment and the best way possible.

742
00:40:41.679 --> 00:40:44.000
So it's very smart. Our body learned to be either

743
00:40:44.039 --> 00:40:48.159
highly red or highly blue, really brilliant, right, yes, yeah,

744
00:40:48.199 --> 00:40:50.599
then we got to say, well, wait, do I need

745
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:53.320
this in this relationship at this time. So if you're

746
00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:57.159
read some of the suggestions, what happens when we're activated

747
00:40:57.599 --> 00:41:00.360
in the red place? We tend to think this moment

748
00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:03.679
is going to last forever, So our body feels panicked.

749
00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:07.840
Right if our child is stomped up the stairs, we

750
00:41:07.880 --> 00:41:12.039
react in that high activation state. Remember when we're hyper aroused,

751
00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:14.280
that's when the tiger's chasing us, right, So we have

752
00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:17.000
to run, so we think we have to act. We

753
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:19.280
feel that pressure. So if you're able to go, wait,

754
00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:22.360
I don't have to act. Let me find my secure self. Right.

755
00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:24.559
So that's why we liked in the moment where am

756
00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:26.559
I on the spectrum like we like it to help

757
00:41:26.559 --> 00:41:29.280
people visualize if I want to run up those stairs,

758
00:41:29.360 --> 00:41:31.599
I'm pretty far out. So one of the things we

759
00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:34.920
suggest there is using your imagination. We have so many

760
00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:38.679
suggestions about how to use your imagination because our mind

761
00:41:38.719 --> 00:41:40.800
doesn't know the difference most of the time when we're

762
00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:44.840
using our imagination between the moment and what we're conjuring

763
00:41:44.920 --> 00:41:47.079
up in our mind. So we encourage people in the

764
00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:50.559
highly read moment, whether you live there or you're in

765
00:41:50.599 --> 00:41:54.880
that moment, to imagine. Depending on the situation, imagine thirty

766
00:41:54.880 --> 00:41:58.480
minutes later, or if it's a fight with a predictable

767
00:41:58.480 --> 00:42:01.159
fight with your spouse, instead of in the moment, I've

768
00:42:01.159 --> 00:42:04.800
got to work this out. It's imagine yourself two days

769
00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:08.599
from now, or again, your child stopped, but imagine two

770
00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:12.119
hours later she's asking you to share whatever it is

771
00:42:12.159 --> 00:42:16.480
you're eating. So if you can imagine the connection happening,

772
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:19.880
but it happens, it's not the fight, it's not the rupture.

773
00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:22.679
It's the need for repair. And so if we stomp

774
00:42:22.719 --> 00:42:24.840
up the stairs, they're not going to be in a

775
00:42:24.840 --> 00:42:27.639
place to repair, neither of you. So if you think

776
00:42:28.159 --> 00:42:30.840
I can imagine a future time having a good conversation

777
00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:34.239
about this, and I let myself go there, what I'm

778
00:42:34.280 --> 00:42:36.559
communicating to my body, Remember we're all talking to our

779
00:42:36.559 --> 00:42:39.719
nervous system is, oh wait, if I can imagine a

780
00:42:39.760 --> 00:42:44.719
future I think I could be okay, right, because if

781
00:42:44.760 --> 00:42:48.280
I'm highly activated, it's the threat. Oh my god. If

782
00:42:48.320 --> 00:42:51.239
you're in the blue. One suggestion is sometimes people in

783
00:42:51.280 --> 00:42:54.360
the blue go to work and they forget anybody else exists.

784
00:42:54.400 --> 00:42:57.639
They can be very productive, right like, because you kind

785
00:42:57.639 --> 00:43:01.239
of disconnect from your attachment system. Sometimes we suggest bringing

786
00:43:01.280 --> 00:43:05.800
pictures of the spouse, right of the family, or when

787
00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:08.320
you're going home, sitting in the moment and go, I

788
00:43:08.360 --> 00:43:11.159
wonder what whomever was in the house's day has been like.

789
00:43:11.880 --> 00:43:13.679
Because what happens when we're in the blue is we

790
00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:16.719
get very caught up in ourselves. So you imagine the

791
00:43:16.760 --> 00:43:20.360
connection Another way to do it is imagine if this

792
00:43:20.480 --> 00:43:24.320
person that you think is so needy or whatever, imagine

793
00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:27.719
they disappeared on you. Not in the moment, because when

794
00:43:27.719 --> 00:43:30.039
you're fighting, you might want them to disappear, but if

795
00:43:30.039 --> 00:43:32.960
you imagine them, then you may connect to your desire

796
00:43:33.039 --> 00:43:36.280
for them and your need for them. And how healthy

797
00:43:36.280 --> 00:43:36.599
that is.

798
00:43:37.400 --> 00:43:41.000
Yeah, that's really useful. I remember learning once or reading

799
00:43:41.039 --> 00:43:44.800
ones about particularly with that the blue and the kind

800
00:43:44.800 --> 00:43:48.079
of a little bit more. I don't need anybody. And

801
00:43:48.159 --> 00:43:50.880
in relation to this threat response that we have, you

802
00:43:50.920 --> 00:43:54.079
know that we're either getting threatened by too much closeness

803
00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:57.760
or we're getting threatened by too much distance. And if

804
00:43:57.760 --> 00:44:00.480
we get if we're threatened by too much close business,

805
00:44:00.519 --> 00:44:04.840
then being away or as you say, like imagining losing

806
00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:08.840
them can just be enough to for the threat to

807
00:44:08.840 --> 00:44:11.400
disappear and for you to remember. Does that make sense?

808
00:44:11.599 --> 00:44:14.880
Oh no, that's so true. It's like all of a sudden, yes,

809
00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:17.559
it's like, wait, I don't want to lose them.

810
00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:20.360
Yeah, no, no, no, yeah exactly. So then it reminds you, actually,

811
00:44:20.360 --> 00:44:22.920
I do need that person, because when you when they're

812
00:44:22.920 --> 00:44:26.480
either physically away or there, you imagine them not being there.

813
00:44:26.559 --> 00:44:30.159
Suddenly that threat response is not present anymore either.

814
00:44:30.199 --> 00:44:33.320
Right, you're not feeling like you don't feel like, oh

815
00:44:33.320 --> 00:44:34.639
my gosh, I'm going to get engulfed.

816
00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:35.679
Yeah.

817
00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:37.880
Yeah. One of the ways, one of the signs of

818
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:42.360
living in the blue too much is that you fear

819
00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:45.400
the loss of self. If I get too close to somebody,

820
00:44:45.400 --> 00:44:47.480
I'm gonna lose my independence. So if I get too close,

821
00:44:47.519 --> 00:44:52.000
I'll lose my personality, I lose my charisma, I lose myself, right,

822
00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:55.360
because that's kind of what happened in your life when

823
00:44:55.400 --> 00:44:58.320
you were younger, and so there is a real fear

824
00:44:58.400 --> 00:45:02.559
of closeness because you fear of your own identity. So

825
00:45:02.679 --> 00:45:06.199
being able to remind yourself that to feel secure and

826
00:45:06.239 --> 00:45:09.079
to be in a secure place, we have to know

827
00:45:09.119 --> 00:45:12.800
that having ourselves and having other people is where the

828
00:45:12.840 --> 00:45:17.480
full security lies. Independence isn't Independence is a sign of disconnection.

829
00:45:17.599 --> 00:45:19.559
It's not actually a sign. It's not a sign to

830
00:45:20.360 --> 00:45:23.480
admire in yourself, right exactly.

831
00:45:23.559 --> 00:45:25.599
I think that's such an important point that you made before,

832
00:45:25.639 --> 00:45:28.719
and I want to just highlight it that just because

833
00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:32.000
you feel like you don't need somebody doesn't mean that

834
00:45:32.039 --> 00:45:36.159
you don't need somebody. Like you're biologically wide for connection,

835
00:45:36.280 --> 00:45:38.239
and what is happening. I think this is important for

836
00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:40.639
people to understand. What's actually happened is that you have

837
00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:46.960
shut down your innate biological need for connection because at

838
00:45:47.000 --> 00:45:49.920
some point you've learned that that's not safe. And so

839
00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:54.440
what you said before about the flow on potential negative

840
00:45:54.440 --> 00:45:57.880
consequences even for your physical health, I think that's just

841
00:45:58.079 --> 00:46:00.920
so important. So I wanted to just reinforce that.

842
00:46:01.159 --> 00:46:03.760
I'm so glad you did, and we want to just

843
00:46:04.320 --> 00:46:07.639
make one point because I really loved when you asked

844
00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:11.320
that this isn't just about relationships, it's about all primary people.

845
00:46:11.719 --> 00:46:14.119
Our last chapter of book is also focused on community

846
00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:19.760
as a whole time. And right now, you know, what

847
00:46:19.800 --> 00:46:21.719
we really want to stress is that when we are

848
00:46:21.760 --> 00:46:25.559
in a threat response, whether it's with our child, our partner,

849
00:46:26.480 --> 00:46:29.800
we really are in our most activated, worse selves. And

850
00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:33.800
when we're in our worst selves, our brain immediately goes

851
00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:37.239
to black and white thinking. It goes to fear, it

852
00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:40.960
goes to defense, and it goes to blame. And right now,

853
00:46:41.079 --> 00:46:43.800
we're being challenged in the world, in most parts of

854
00:46:43.840 --> 00:46:47.239
the world to feel a lot of threat and threats

855
00:46:47.239 --> 00:46:51.159
all around us. And so when we're in threat. We

856
00:46:51.239 --> 00:46:53.800
have to think we're right and others are wrong. Right,

857
00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:56.480
we have to try to put things in a more

858
00:46:56.519 --> 00:47:00.239
black and white way. We lose the nuance of being

859
00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:04.360
able to listen and hear, and honestly, that can get

860
00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:07.840
used against us, sometimes intentionally. Right, if I can get

861
00:47:07.880 --> 00:47:10.800
you in fear, you quit being your more secure self

862
00:47:11.639 --> 00:47:15.679
and you're more activated. And so it's really an important

863
00:47:15.719 --> 00:47:18.400
time for all of us to really focus on how

864
00:47:18.400 --> 00:47:21.800
do we find our most secure, grounded wise self. How

865
00:47:21.880 --> 00:47:24.400
much information do we take in that we're not then

866
00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:27.039
just overloading our nervous system and sending ourselves off to

867
00:47:27.079 --> 00:47:31.039
the ends of the spectrum. We need information, it's important.

868
00:47:31.400 --> 00:47:33.880
But if we don't have curiosity, we can't connect. We

869
00:47:33.920 --> 00:47:37.679
can't talk to this favorite or least favorite person about

870
00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:41.000
something that they believe it's different than us. And we

871
00:47:41.039 --> 00:47:43.320
can feel our whole system activating and all we want

872
00:47:43.360 --> 00:47:46.239
to do is shake our fist or run. You know

873
00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:49.719
that that's us being activated, it's not. We have to

874
00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:52.360
quit telling the narrative that it's out there. So really

875
00:47:52.480 --> 00:47:54.559
want to stress that that's part of our goal in

876
00:47:54.599 --> 00:47:58.039
writing this book is not only to help us as individuals,

877
00:47:58.039 --> 00:48:00.599
and help us in all of our primary relationship. But

878
00:48:00.719 --> 00:48:05.760
I think as as a as a world connected culture,

879
00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:09.159
we need each other and we have to really connect

880
00:48:09.159 --> 00:48:11.360
to the need for one another. And we have to

881
00:48:11.400 --> 00:48:14.800
find our own secure grounding self, which isn't thinking we

882
00:48:14.840 --> 00:48:16.719
know better than anybody else or do you know what

883
00:48:16.760 --> 00:48:22.360
I'm saying, and that we find connection. It's so hard though,

884
00:48:22.679 --> 00:48:23.599
it is, isn't it.

885
00:48:24.079 --> 00:48:24.280
Oh?

886
00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:26.599
Yeah, because I really feel like I'm right and.

887
00:48:28.119 --> 00:48:33.159
So hasn't done. It's I'm like grounded and balanced enough,

888
00:48:33.440 --> 00:48:36.639
right mind and emotionally and self aware and and but

889
00:48:36.920 --> 00:48:38.239
all you people.

890
00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:43.280
It's so true, and especially if it's hitting your morals right,

891
00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:46.679
like right, this is threading and how can you believe that?

892
00:48:46.960 --> 00:48:48.719
And the truth is, you know so wonders. You don't

893
00:48:48.760 --> 00:48:51.480
have to even disconnect from being right. It's like the

894
00:48:51.519 --> 00:48:52.280
beautiful world.

895
00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:54.480
And yes, like I.

896
00:48:54.400 --> 00:48:56.880
Really hold strongly to this and you can you tell me?

897
00:48:56.920 --> 00:48:58.679
And when you can really connect to what it is

898
00:48:58.719 --> 00:49:02.159
it's important and what they're saying, it's really funny. A

899
00:49:02.159 --> 00:49:04.079
lot of times, I don't think we're as disconnected as

900
00:49:04.119 --> 00:49:06.880
we think. I think you're right from our beliefs. It's

901
00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:09.599
just that we have tag things that make us believe

902
00:49:10.159 --> 00:49:13.039
that the other person's evil. And I think when we

903
00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:15.519
start actually getting underneath, and that's a sign of being

904
00:49:15.519 --> 00:49:19.519
in the green, is that you have curiosity, Like if

905
00:49:19.559 --> 00:49:21.599
you only think you're right and I'm me too, boy,

906
00:49:21.639 --> 00:49:24.039
I can live over there in the hyperactivated red when

907
00:49:24.079 --> 00:49:26.719
I get pissed off about something and you can't come

908
00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:30.159
and say, let's have a calm conversation because I'm like, yeah,

909
00:49:30.159 --> 00:49:31.599
But if I go, okay, wait, if I'm going to

910
00:49:31.639 --> 00:49:35.320
find my most secure self in this conversation, I have

911
00:49:35.360 --> 00:49:41.400
to find curiosity instead of be waiting to give my point. Adaly,

912
00:49:42.239 --> 00:49:44.639
that's a sign of activation, and I recognize it in myself.

913
00:49:44.639 --> 00:49:46.320
I'm like, okay, I'm really having a hard time listening

914
00:49:46.360 --> 00:49:48.719
because I'm just waiting for them to quit talking so

915
00:49:48.719 --> 00:49:50.320
that I can tell them how they're wrong.

916
00:49:51.039 --> 00:49:56.000
Exactly exactly. I had a similar conversation with Sue Johnson.

917
00:49:56.039 --> 00:49:57.719
I think I had to cut it because the conversation

918
00:49:57.800 --> 00:50:00.280
went too long, but we had this exact conversation. Actually,

919
00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:02.719
in the world of social media, and everybody's got an

920
00:50:02.719 --> 00:50:05.519
opinion and we're just everybody's in their silos, in their

921
00:50:05.519 --> 00:50:09.039
echo chambers, and it is hard. But you're so right.

922
00:50:09.719 --> 00:50:12.320
If we actually get underneath that, and if we are

923
00:50:12.400 --> 00:50:15.480
able to bring more curiosity, we have more in common,

924
00:50:16.039 --> 00:50:18.480
then there is more that connects us than separates us.

925
00:50:18.519 --> 00:50:21.599
That is a fact that is so true, It really is.

926
00:50:21.679 --> 00:50:23.760
So I think it's a really important point. I'm glad

927
00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:26.400
that you mentioned that. It's a really good point to remember.

928
00:50:26.800 --> 00:50:30.760
And I loved your book. I love talking to you.

929
00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:31.679
Thank you so much.

930
00:50:31.840 --> 00:50:32.880
Oh, I so enjoyed it.

931
00:50:33.519 --> 00:50:36.760
And you've mentioned that most of my audiences in Australia,

932
00:50:36.800 --> 00:50:39.239
and you mentioned you've got a lot of listeners in Australia,

933
00:50:39.320 --> 00:50:42.960
So if you are not already on the Therapist's Uncensored podcast, yes,

934
00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:46.280
then my listeners should definitely hop over and subscribe to

935
00:50:46.320 --> 00:50:47.960
that one as well. And where else can they find

936
00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:49.599
out about about you and Sue?

937
00:50:50.400 --> 00:50:53.480
Yeah, Therapist AND's Censored. We have a website. If you

938
00:50:53.519 --> 00:50:56.599
go to Therapist un Censored, our website will pop up

939
00:50:56.840 --> 00:51:00.519
and it will have more information about our book, about

940
00:51:00.559 --> 00:51:03.559
our podcast. We have a conference coming up. If somebody's

941
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a commission and is interested in some of the work

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that we're talking about, we're doing a conference in May.

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The book comes out April thirtieth b we have a conference.

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This may so amazing. I'll put all of the links

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in the show notes. Thank you so much and for

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your time. It's been a pleasure. I so enjoyed it.

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If you enjoy this episode, please share it with a friend. Obviously,

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00:51:25.239 --> 00:51:28.440
leave us a rating and review wherever you listen, and

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00:51:28.760 --> 00:51:31.800
if you're not subscribed, just hit that little plus button

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00:51:31.880 --> 00:51:34.320
to make sure that you never miss an episode. Come over,

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00:51:34.360 --> 00:51:38.000
connect with me on Instagram, at caston Underscore XO, or

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00:51:38.039 --> 00:51:41.199
at Crappy to Happy Pod, or email me hello at

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Kaston dot com. Thank you so much for being here.

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I cannot wait to catch you next week for another

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episode of Crappy to Habby