The Positivity Prescription with Dr Suzy Green

0:02 A listener production. Hey, you're listening to Crappy to Happy. I'm your host, Cas Dunn. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist, a mindfulness meditation teacher, and author of the Crappy to Happy books. In this show, we talk about all the things that might be making you feel crappy and give you the tools and tips to help you overcome them. And of course, in each episode, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their field. And my hope is that you take something from these conversations that helps you feel a little bit less crappy and more happy. Today, I am so excited to introduce you to my friend colleague, one of my early mentors, doctor Susie Green now Susie like me, is a clinical and coaching psychologist. She is the founder and CEO of the Positivity Institute, which is an organization whose mission it is to help create flourishing lives and increase the wellbeing of the world. Now, many years ago, I first met Susie when I enrolled in the world's first Masters of Coaching Psychology at the University of Sydney and at the time as an aspiring life coach.

1:11 I felt pretty out of place in a room full of managers and consultants and people in suits and ties learning how to be executive coaches. Then Susie Green walked in like a breath of fresh air. She was a PhD candidate at the time, and she taught the positive psychology subject and she talked about the value of life coaching. She's an energizer, bunny. Her enthusiasm for the topic was extremely contagious, and she really reaffirmed for me the value of coaching for individual wellbeing. Susie is now, all these years later, a world leader in the complementary fields of coaching, psychology and positive psychology. She helps organizations to create flourishing workplaces.

1:55 She goes into schools to teach about positive education and for individuals like you. She has recently written her book, The Positivity Prescription, and she's also created a six week online course of the same name, which is kicking off really soon. So stay listening at the end of the episode for a special discount code if you're interested in Susie's Positivity Prescription For now, here's my chat with Susie. Susie, you are the CEO and founder of the Positivity Institute. Now look for the lay person who doesn't understand these terms positive psychology, clinical psychology, counseling, psychology. Can you just explain to us what exactly is positive psychology? Yeah?

2:35 Absolutely, And I guess there are a few different definitions floating about, but the most simple and powerful one for me is it's the science. So it is a scientific study, a scientific field of optimal human functioning. So even more simplistic, I would say, just us at our best. So it's a study of us at our best as human beings here on the planet. And how does it fit then with other brands of psychology? So if we're talking about therapy and clinical psychology, can you just give us for people who aren't familiar, can you just give us the little snapshot of how this new field of positive, newish field of positive psychology came to be? Like where it fits? Absolutely? And I think as as you know my background, I started off as a clinical psychologist, which I still am a clinical psychologist. And as a clinical site we're taught and trained to help diagnose and treat clinical disorders such as depression and anxiety and other forms of psychological distress.

3:35 And I know in my training it was very focused on symptom identification and symptom reduction, and even I guess in the field of counseling psychology, which is closely related. Generally, people arrive in your practice, and like you, I had a practice for many, many years working with individuals with problems. Very rarely did I have someone come along saying things are fantastick, but I want them to be even better, Whereas in I guess coaching, which we're going to talk about today too, and positive psychology, it is often about people wanting perhaps not certainly not in most cases being clinically depressed. Although I did want to say that there is a role for positive psychology in clinical psych and perhaps we can touch on that too, But generally positive psychos of people that just want to live better lives that might be languishing is the term that we use.

4:27 So certainly not flourishing, but there's a recognition that they're not feeling their best self or they're not living their best lives. I love that you just mentioned the words languishing and flourishing. Can you explain that to us to my listeners? Yeah, what is languishing? What is flourishing? Yeah, so I think if we think about and most people these days, as you would know, and I think, if anything, COVID has really highlighted the mental health issues we have in our community. So we're not talking about a clinical diagnosis, particularly around a disorder like depression. So languishing could possibly be subclinical depression or on the way to developing a clinical depression, not feeling good and not functioning very well. There are a lot of people that are languishing, and a lot of people turn up to work every day and you've probably heard that term presenteeism rather than absentees, and so they're.

5:20 There, but they're not really there. But yeah, certainly not necessarily as I said, within the clinical realm. So that's languishing. Then in between, there's a large category called the moderately mentally healthy, and that's not a bad place to be cast, but I certainly don't want to spend the remainder of my life just being moderately mentally healthy. And so again that's you know, feeling okay, but again not truly flourishing. And so the F word we call it in positive psychology, flourishing really is a combination of high levels of psychological well being and low levels of mental illness, but also high levels of engagement or you know, really playing to our strengths having a purposeful life as well. So that's a real combination there of experiencing a flourishing state. And I guess the question is is it normal to flourish all the time or possibly not? And even with someone like myself or yourself that's highly skilled in psychology and psychological skills, when the curve balls come, do we use them?

6:27 I can tell you, Cass, I don't know about you, but I know, even through COVID, I really had to rely on my buddies and my learned friends that have those skills to help me, because it is very hard when you're in the eye of the storm to actually rely on the skills. Which is why we need as many people as. Possible in our community to be skilled so we can help each other when the going gets tough. What you just described then is I guess to recap. So in my clinical practice, and I'm sure in yours, people would come in with depression and anxiety, with a problem and we would work to get them back to functioning normally. You know that in the normal range absent of symptoms.

7:10 That's it on the depression, anxiety and stress scale. And then our job was over and we waived by Pye. But we're going let's not wave by violence, where we can move to what we can really do. Yeah. So, therefore this positive psychologist for the people who might be functioning well but they want something more. They know that they want to fulfill their potential, live their best life, be more engaged. This is where you know, I feel really passionately about this as well. Obviously, Susie you said there is it's a real science now for those who who might be listening and going, well, this is all well and good, but you know there are people who've got real problems in the world or who dismiss it as you know, self help, happy happyology, that kind of thing.

7:54 What does the science say about positive psychology. Well, we do have over twenty years of research now since the field formally launched, but even pre existing the field, there were aspects that weren't identified as positive psychology. I guess that we can still draw on. But the evidence is pretty compelling, particularly around the study of positive emotions. So cas like me, I'm sure in your lectures, particularly as a clinical site. You never had a lecture on joy or love or kindness. I know all of my lectures were on fear, anger, shame, disgust, and guilt are usually and on unhappy couples. I still remember having a lecture on unhappy couples and I used to say, is that because there.

8:37 Aren't any happy couples? But you no, The research is pretty compelling around positive emotions. So we do now know that there are ten different types of positive emotions, whereas prior to this research, we used to clump them under happy, you know, and happiness, and most people understand what happiness is. In a broad way. But we now we're a lot more nuanced around understanding emotions like joy, for example, like elevation, which is the emotion you feel when you feel inspired when you watch people engage in doing good deeds, for example. So we know that when we are in when we experience positive emotions such as joy, as I mentioned, there's a whole range of physiological effects that happen. So our visual perception broadens.

9:27 We actually look up and I've noticed all those look up signs on billboards lately, and so we know that if you induce people into a positive mood state, and there's various ways you can do that which we can talk about have done. Try eye tracking experiments, so our eyes actually scan the environment, and so when we're scanning the environment, we see more, we see more options and solutions, we're more attuned. Whereas as you know, when you're in that flight or free stay stage or experience, our thinking arrows down because we have to address right in this very moment what we need to do for our survival. So there's a whole range of benefits besides seeing more we make The research says we make better decisions, and they've done some great experiments with surgeons that have been given very complex cases to solve, and when you induce one group in or a positive mood state and the other into a negative, they make much more efficient and correct diagnoses. So there's again a whole range of these outcomes.

10:31 Also around our immune functioning. Now I would say now more than ever, particularly with COVID and different strains that seem to be emerging, our immune system is really really important. And on the flip side, again, as you would be very familiar with, there's decades of research to show that when we're feeling experiencing stress over the longer term that it has a negative impact on our immune system, which makes us more liable to catch it a virus for example. So the researcher is showing when we're experiencing more positive emotions, it seems to buffer our immune system and we're less likely to catch the flu. And there's been a study to show that people that receive the flu vaccine versus people that were engaging in a loving kindness mindfulness meditation, the results were comparable. So you know, when we're looking at whether to get the flu shot or mindfulness, and then I'm not saying don't get the flu shot, but consider our mindfulness as a means to boost your immune system, which also particularly these loving kindness type meditations, gives us that positive emotional boost as well.

11:37 That's the thing, isn't it, Like that's a real tangible benefit. I think so many people aren't necessarily aware they know what makes them feel good, and we'd all rather feel good than feel crappy, hence the crappy to have your podcast. But I don't think people necessarily realize those physiological changes that happen, like at a cellular level, we're actually changing. Absolutely is very and we've known that, I guess intuitively for a long time the connection, but the research, particularly coming out of psychooneuroimminology again is very compelling on that link between our emotional state and our physiological state and. Of course our behaviors. There's great research which i'd just like to briefly touch that shows that when you induce people into a positive mood state, they're more likely to make larger contributions to charities, to be more altruistic. Some wonderful research where they brought people together from very different diverse backgrounds and racially diverse backgrounds, and when you induce them into the positive mood state and they come together, they're more likely to see the similarities between us rather than the differences compared to when you do an induction into a negative mood state and bring these very different people together, they're more likely to see how we're different. And that has significant implications for our planet and our society.

12:59 For sure, especially if you think about some of the politics of the last twelve months, those that divisiveness and those you know, polarity in people's views. So if we just all felt a bit more positive, we could bridge some of. Those games, so we're more open to perhaps taking a different perspective actually listening, being compassionate towards others. So you can see there's actually a whole ripple effect between I guess, the emotions and then the behaviors that come out of those emotional states as. Well, Susie. There's a million books on happiness out there at the moment. I've contributed a little to that. I've just got my third one coming out. But you know, I think we're all looking for the solution. I guess we're all looking for ways to feel better. We've all heard of mindfulness.

13:51 Even if listeners don't really get it or they don't think they can get it, we all know by now that we should be writing down three things we're grateful for every day. They seem to be the kind of stock standard tips you know that you see on an Instagram quote. What other kinds of tools or strategies or interventions could have sort of full underneath this banner of positive psychology? Can you just sort of give us an overview? Sure? And you're write CASSID is a banner or an umbrella. We often referred to it as because often you hear people writing positive psychology offers fluff or non scientific, and it's very difficult to do that because, as you've said, there are many different areas of research, or we call them constructs in psychology, but topics basically that fall under that umbrella, the two that you've mentioned, and they're fantastic because I guess even less than ten years ago when I went to organizations to talk about mindfulness, there were barely one or two people in a group of thirty that would say that they'd even heard of it. Now it's really taken the world by storm, and there is compelling evidence to encourage us to think about regular mindfulness practice and regular gratitude practice. Although I do want to say the research suggests that if you're already a grateful person, you're not going to get an extra boost to your well being by practicing gratitude.

15:06 You've got to be ungrateful to get the better. And I've seen it happen. I've seen people have major AHAs that they've been taking people for granted, or taking their life situation for granted, and by simply just acknowledging that through an appreciation or gratitude type exercise, they have a major aha, and. I feel a lot better about that. But you're right, I've mentioned positive emotions, so that is a big area of research that's continuing. Strengths is a really large component of positive psychology. So a large part is around what we call character strengths. So they're the types of strengths that make us good human beings if you like so strengths such as gratitude or kindness. There's leadership, love of learning, curiosity, and for those that are listening today, you can take a free assessment of your character strengths if you go Tovia Institute, which is a great exercise to do. The area that I'm really interested in right now and is getting gaining a lot of research attention, and really following on from the research on mindfulness is compassion and self and in particular self compassion. I'm sure you've spoken a lot about that podcast, cas So, and there's a wonderful book that's recently come out by some of my colleagues on the impact of awakening compassion in the workplace. There's a whole chapter on the impact on business outcomes, which I'm sure we will talk about today too, But I think at this point in time. You know,

16:36 I know last year and you were probably the same. I wasn't really being called on to do talks on well being so much last year, but a lot on resilience and on mental toughness to get through the adversity. And so I just want to clarify that resilience, even though it did pre exist positive psychology and in many ways fell under the realm of clinical psychology, it does fall under the umbrella of positive psychology, and we know that positive emotions buffer us from a resilience perspective, and mental toughness is another area that I've been really interested in that I would say would fall falls under that umbrella. And for those that are on the listening to the podcast today that might appreciate some academic research, there's a fantastic paper that's only just come out in the last week in the Journal of Positive Psychology looking at the benefits of taking a positive psychology approach in a pandemic and very Happy. It's an open access journal, happy to send you the link CAUs that perhaps you make available to people as well, and it covers topics that I've already mentioned. It also talks about meaning, which again is a really big area of research that's gained a lot of traction in the last ten to fifteen years. And we know that people that have a sense of meaning in their workplace report greater levels of work satisfaction, and those that have a sense of meaning in them their life more generally report greater levels of well being as well.

18:04 And we know a lot about now how we can go about developing greater meaning in our lives as well. So yeah, and I think that's been a bit of a debate too. I mean, I use the word happiness in the work that I do because, like you said, like everybody resonates, we all know what that is. But it does boil down to meaning, doesn't it. It's that balance of positive emotions, feeling good, but also having that sense of purpose. Absolutely. Again, just looking at some fairly recent research that looked at people that prioritize positivity, and I'm a big one for prioritizing positivity, which basically is creating a life timetable, if you like, and putting in the activities the people the places that you know.

18:45 Are going to give you a positive mood boost. And I've done that for a long time and it's made a big difference in my life. But there was a follow up study that looked at prioritizing meaning and again looking at people that really thought about their values and the things that really did give the sense of meaning in their lives, and that seemed to give benefits over and above prioritizing positivity. So the meaning piece is really essential to a flourishing life. When you say strengths too, I just wanted to go back to that when you said people can go to the VIA Institute and take a strength survey. Now that strength survey, because there's a little bit of confusion about the definition of strengths I think too in positive psychology. I mean, because that is really like a values in action survey, right, as opposed to I'm really my strengths are that I'm good at maths or I'm a good problem solver. Can you explain that a bit for people, because that's always a bit of a confusing topic.

19:39 Sure, and some of your listeners might be familiar with other strengths assessments like the Gallop Clifton Strengths Finder, which is used extensively in the workplace, or one out of the UK called Strengths Profile. The VIA are character strengths. And that's really important because it was developed by looking across cultures, across and philosophy through time, and they basically did a bit of a factor analysis and came up with six common virtues, So regardless of religion or culture, what were the common virtues and then what were the common character strengths. And so it's been a really powerful I guess approach, and there's so much research on the character strengths that's been done in workplaces and in school settings.

20:25 But the other types of strengths are what we would call performance strengths. So I mentioned the Gallop Strengths Finder. There's thirty four themes in that there's sixty strengths in the other strengths profile. It may be that you don't necessarily want to develop all of those strengths, those performance strengths cass and you basically just play to your strengths once you get your reports and you know what your strengths are. The idea is that you play to your strengths. You watch that you don't overplay them, because that's really important. But when it comes to the character strengths, it's not like we just play to our top five and we forget about the rest because the full twenty four are important and in terms of being the best human beings that we can be, it really is a case of developing the full twenty four over our lifetime. Now I'm not there yet, cash to tell about you. I'm still working on the developer to go there. I've got a few more to go. So I think you can actually use them very complementary and in some of the work we do. We'd start off as an entry into strengths because the via is very simple and it resonates with people.

21:30 But then if you're in a workplace or. An organization, the performance strengths can be really powerful, and they're fantastic if you're looking at career coaching or career changes as well. And speaking about strengths and values, I mean I talk about values with people a lot, and so many people, I think for you and I who have are been immersed in this sort of field for a long time, it's just standard kind of stuff to talk about values and what are your values, what your character strengths. But I've been really surprised at the number of people who never have thought about it, who have never really considered what their highest values are, like what is most important to them in life. So what's the point do you tell us, Susie, Like, what's the point of knowing what your values are? And where do people start with identifying what they are exactly?

22:23 Well, basically, values are what matters most to you in your life. And I mean, as you know, there's more and more research coming out of acceptance and commitment therapy or training act it's called that is sort of supporting what we already knew. I think from a coaching perspective, we've used values a lot to help people determine what matters most in their lives and then to design a life that reflects what matters most in their lives. But there is more research coming. Out to show too that knowing what matters most allows us to actually sit with discomfort as we move towards living a more authentic life. And I guess most of us ideally want to live an authentic life, but sometimes that's difficult. Sometimes it's you know, not being the person that others want us to be, or it might mean sitting with some discomfort as we carve out or navigate a different life path for ourselves. So knowing why for me, the values are the why of the goals, or the why of our direction or our actions in life. And once you get really clear on what matters most, and we usually suggest trying to get down to say five, your top five core life values, they become, as one of my very early coaching clients said to me, the best decision making tools he had ever had, because when it came and I was coaching him on work life balance, I think at the time, and when it came down to whether I should stay at six o'clock for another hour,

23:54 you know, and not get home till nine o'clock, not see my wife, not have dinner with my wife, not have see my kids, it was very easy to make a decision at six o'clock to go home. And we actually had his values up on the wall right in front of his face so that he could be reminded of what mattered most, so we could make the decision to log off and go home. So they really do become great decision making tools, particularly when you're conflicted. And although I have to say cas sometimes we can have values conflict. So for example, if you do want to achieve and we've got some career goals for ourselves, but we also value our family, and so we're sort of balancing that time with family and achievement. But often we'll see too that the achievement often underpinning that is because I want to be successful for my family.

24:42 So it's a really good discussion point. And like you said, I've had many clients that have said a week, Susie, I can't do this. In a week. I need a year. I need a whole. Year to really take some time out and reflect on what matters most. So I would suggest, and I do recommend, that give it some time, give yourself a year, you know, to really think about the things that matter most. There are lots of values lists. You can just google the available freely. We have a list. I'm sure you have a list, and you can just start off by asterisking. I know what I did, and I asterismally everything, and then I just put it aside and came back to it, put it aside and came back to it until I had said, and I reiterate here the word felt, because you actually get a physical feeling when you get down to the ones that feel.

25:32 Authentic for you, you will feel them to be right. So for me, that's a great indicator of whether you've got the right values. Yeah, that's really good advice, and I concur I think everybody should just be at least spending some time reflecting on, even if you don't know what they are, reflecting on what is most important in life as a starting point and as an ongoing work in progress, really right to continue to reflect on. Yeah, and look, I did when I was in my early thirties, and. You know, I've had a bit of a birthday in a few. Years ago, and you know, twenty years on I revisited those values. They haven't really changed, but the words have, so I think the words have become a little more sophisticated, I like to think cass than what they were when I was thirty.

26:21 But they're basically the same values, you know. So, and in fact, the research that I've read scenes to show that they don't change significantly over our lifetime once you get real clarity about what matters most. I hope that you're enjoying this conversation and realizing the benefits of positivity in your own life. If you are enjoying the show, please be sure to like and subscribe so that you get notified when you epps drop and head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and leave us a rating and review Suse you want to pick up on something you said too about the I'm familiar with act as well, obviously acceptance a commitment, therapy or training and living a life that is authentic and in line with our values and tolerating discomfort. Now, I wanted to pick up on that because I think that a lot of people think that this positivity and this happiness stuff, and I've been accused of this like that.

27:23 I've been told, well not told. Somebody posted on my Facebook once that it was irresponsible of me to be promoting this idea of happiness because it's completely unrealistic for people to be happy all the time, and therefore was irresponsible for somebody in mental health to be suggesting that that was a goal for people, which clearly anybody who knows my work knows that that's not my goal. Can you just counter that in terms of we're not about being happy all the time? Are we? No? You and I, as clin sites know they'll lock you up as you are are. Usually say they will seriously lock you up. It's not normal, right, It's just not normal to walk around with that big yellow, happy Svalley face all day. But yeah, I think, look, I'm not doctor happy, right, And in fact, some of my colleagues call me doctor Cantankeres.

28:15 Caspar so. Yeah it larious. Yeah, And look again, I think the benefit of coming from a clinical background is that we know that the full range of human emotions are absolutely important for us. They're normal and they're appropriate. The only issue, as you and I know, becomes when they go to their clinical extreme. So for example, when sadness becomes clinical depression, when anger becomes rage, when anxiety becomes well, you know, fear becomes an anxiety disorder, and even as I mentioned before, when happiness becomes mania, you know, at that end, and I get a bit cranky, honestly when I hear comments like that, and I'm actually writing a blog I'm going to post on LinkedIn about this, about this concept of toxic positivity, and I understand where it's coming from, and it's exactly we agree.

29:08 We don't want people to be. Forcing you know, positivity and absolutely repressing or suppressing difficult emotions, because emotions are information, They're there for a reason, and it's really important to pay attention to them. And if we just push them down, well, number one, we know they're going to find a way back up because the more you do that, they do tend to say hey, Susie and try and get your attention a little bit more. But I hate to see this dichotomous approach that. You know, if you're talking to people about being happy or positive, that means that you're not saying it's okay to experience nets the so called negative emotions. And I'm not saying that you're not saying that at all, but what we are saying is, yes, it's really important to be able to sit with uncomfortable emotions because you know, they are information, as we said, and sometimes we need to do that to move in values congruent direction as we were saying before.

30:09 And it's normal like when COVID first hit, I know myself, i'd sit down and turn that news on it I'd fear to feel a fear response, and then I'm thinking about my business and I don't. Know how are we going to survive? So all of that started to happen. But I guess I had the skills at the time to be able to be aware of that, to notice those emotions, to be curious about those emotions, but then to decide not that I'm going to push them aside or disregard them. But for the moment, right now, I had family coming over. I wanted to switch gears. I wanted to cook a beautiful meal for my family. I put on a piece of mood boosting music, you know, I put a candle on and I started to bring my mindful attention to the activity at hand, and I felt my mood started to lift. So I don't think it has to be an either or situation. But again we certainly agree it's not about forcing you know, positivity or happiness or just thinking positive because as one of my colleagues as thinking positive thinking without positive action will give you positively nothing, you.

31:15 Know, so we all know that you need the action, you know. It's not just the secret of thinking that you you know, look, I usually say, look like element persons, and then tomorrow you wake up and you have we need. There's nothing wrong with having visions, and we know from coaching in particular, that's really powerful to have an inspiring vision or a vision board, but we need the accompanying action to. Be able to move towards the creation of that vision. And Susie, you've mentioned coaching a few times, and I know that you've done a lot of work, not just individually, but going into organizations and doing workplace coaching, executive coaching. I'm curious to know you know your work is in positivity.

31:59 What is the benefit to organizations of fostering more positive workplaces? And I guess also part B to that question is our organizations on board with that? Do they actually realize now the bottom line benefit of cultivating a more positive environment at work. I think we've We've got a bit of a way to go. I think yeah, So I think definitely some are particularly some of the innovative ones that perhaps like Google, and I'm aware that Zero have done some work with post psyche as well. We're being fortunate to work with the Global consultancy ACCENTUA here in Australia and the leader at the time when we were brought in actually had or has a master's in positive psychology. So a bit of a dream client for us to work with a senior leader that actually understands the science. So I didn't really have to go in and give the business case.

32:54 He knew the business case, he'd studied that, hence why he brought us in to work with his leader on both understanding the science of positive psychology, positive organizational scholarship, which is a study of post psych in workplace settings, and also coaching as a means to really apply that science as well. So I think, yeah, my part of my I guess mission is to educate workplaces around the real benefits of being proactive teaching not just leaders, but all people in a workplace the science of positive psychology. That's what I'd love to see happen as we go forward. And coaching really is a means, as I said before, to apply the science because we see lots of organizations investing which is often not cheap in training days. We know from multiple studies. Now the research varies, but you know, around less than ten percent people will retain from a training day. So unless we have some sort of mechanism to transfer that knowledge and put it into action, it's a complete waste of money and people's time. So we have been strong proponent of the use of coaching. Again, there's studies to show the coaching enhances transfer of training, and that doesn't necessarily.

34:12 Have to be professional coaching. I mean, we come in as professional coaches like yourself hold masters in coaching psychology. But it could also be as part of the training day where you set up some peer coaching arrangements with people and teach them some basic coaching skills as well, and that's not too difficult to do really, And in fact, again I mentioned there was a recent paper in the Journal of Positive psych another recent paper in the Journal of Positive Psyche comparing a positive psych intervention, which is basically learning all about these different topics versus a coaching psych intervention, and the positive psyche did lead to increases in happiness and well being if you like. But the coaching led to a whole range of benefits beyond that. It looked at insight, how much insight we learn about ourselves as as human beings.

35:05 It had an impact on resilience, for example, and it had an impact on a broader conception of well being psychological well being, so things like meaning and purpose and positive relationships with others. So that's for me, that paper is going to be a bit of a game changer because it's I guess, finally showing that coaching is a really important, I guess supplement to the science of positive psychology. Because that's where you started, right. You did the world first study on coaching as a positive psychology intervention. Have I got that correct? A long time ago? Yesh, you were lecturing me, good master student a very long time ago.

35:51 Yes, it was. And look you and I were the converted and we know it works for time. Unfortunately, coaching psychology, which started in Sydney, Australia, it's something I'm very proud of. I know you are too. That it's a home grown field. It's made some headway in the UK and Europe. It hasn't really made it into the US, which is where positive psychology really has a large foothold, and there are some really big names within positive side. But I really do believe. That we're finally going to start to see greater acknowledgment of the role of coaching within positive psychology as we move forward. And Suzi, just going back to that organizations, what are the bottom line benefits, what is the business case?

36:34 So look, to be honest, we do need more research. Casp There's some one fairly powerful study that was done by Professor Kim Cameron that showed that there were objective measures of organizational effectiveness after they looked at what is referred to as positive workplace practices. So in organizations that had a significant amount of these pwps, positive workplace practice, so they were things like expressions of gratitude and appreciation, regular expressions within team meetings and across the organization, forgiving culture, so rather than a blame and shame culture, people knew that they could be creative, that there was a level of psychological safety, which a lot of people are talking about now, and that people would be forgiven if they made mistakes. And the other big positive workplace practice was practices of compassion, so when people were going through hard times, not just the leaders, but the people around them really came around and supported people when they were going through tough times. And organizations that had a high degree of those practices had they looked at objective not just subjective measures.

37:46 So they looked at financial performance, they looked at three sixty degree feedback, and they looked at customer satisfaction ratings, and again these organizations had significantly. Higher levels the more of these. Positive workplices that were happening within there. Wow, I just wanted to touch on that because I know listeners of the podcast are all individuals, and we're all thinking about how do I make these improvements in my own life, Like what's in this for me? But I think it's really we all go to work, and I think we need to get away from this idea that there's me at home with my compassion and my gratitude, and then there's this different me who goes into this workplace and is just focused on outcomes. We really need to start blending those and seeing the value of those traits and characteristics and interventions and tools in that context, I think, yeah, And look.

38:39 I'm seeing a lot of grassroots. You know, I'm still surprised when I get phone calls and they perhaps want me or someone from the team to come in and give them I guess the scientific case for it. But they've already been bringing in some of the books that have made it out into the self help and again from some of the top scientists in the field, like Sony Lubermirsky, Professor Barbara Frederickson. But they've already started book clubs. You know, they've left books in perhaps your book as well, becas in the staff room, and people that they would never have expected to be interested, have picked these books up and have started to come along to some of these positive psychology group meetings. So I'm you know, it's inspiring to see that there is interest that's growing in the workplace. And again it may not have to involve a large cost by bringing in a consultant. They might just use a consultant, you know, quite strategically, but they've got enough grassroots in interest and energy to keep it going and keep it fresh because it is something when we have worked with a number of organizations. There's lots of initiatives that you can do and you know we can certainly advise on that, but you've got to keep it fresh all the time.

39:54 So you want new people coming in. If you've got a group of well being champions, you want new i is all the time, new little videos, mood boosting videos, new research being brought in. It's not something well, it's very similar to you don't just go to the gym once and think that you're going to be an elite athlete. You've got to keep it up, you know, and you've got to keep it fresh and doing new things all the time. There's a lot of talk at the moment about the mental health ramifications, you know, and the ongoing potential mental health impact of what we've all been through with COVID, and there's real focus on there's going to be a great need for psychological services and support for people. What is the role and you've probably summed this up already, but really what role does positive psychology have to play in this in terms of just that resilience boosting and helping people to cope with really challenging experiences in life.

40:51 Yeah. Absolutely, As I said before, resilience does, even though it was pre existing, it does fall under the umbrella of positive stuff coology and in fact research looking at psychological well being. I mean, they still quite a bit of debate about what are the key or essential components for somebody that is experiencing high levels of psychological being, But most of the scholars agree that it's underpinned by resilience. So resilience and most of us have a very general understanding that it means our capacity to bounce back from adversity. And even building on that research, there's an area around post traumatic growth, which again needs some more research, but it's a really interesting area looking at when people go through significant adversity and rather than develop a mental illness, they actually grow stronger and better, faster, stronger, better, if you like, through that experience. So that is ongoing research.

41:51 The paper I mentioned about positive psych and a pandemic also talks about coping and gain. That's drawing on probably more broader psychological res search as well. But there are lots of, I guess, components of positive sites that can certainly help when things are uncertain. Mindfulness, again, even though it sits under its own scientific field, we have definitely brought it in under the umbrella a positive psychology, so right now, and I'm sure and I know you are a big supporter of this too. For me, it would be a non negotiable having some form of mindfulness meditation and there are various forms as well, and of course I mentioned the loving kindness type meditation and of.

42:34 Course yeah, it's a great one. It's a beautiful one, is loving kindness, Yes, absolutely beautiful. So yes, I guess the simple answer is that there's a lot that we can draw on that in times when times are tough from a positive site perspective. Just quickly, one study that showed that when they did induce people into a stressful situation, and then they asked them. They had them I think in three or four groups. One group were put into this stressful situation and then they were asked to watch a funny video, perhaps a Seinfeld video or something. Another group were asked to watch a sad movie, and another group we were asked to watch I think a neutral video. And then they looked at cardiovascular reactivity.

43:21 So when you're stressed, your. Heart rate goes up and all the other physiological physiological responses go up. People that watched a Seinfeld video, their return to baseline was significantly faster than people that just watched it, that watched a sad movie or watched a neutral type movie. And I think as we intuitively know that when we're stressed that we take ourselves off for a walk, or we pick up the phone to a friend that we know is going to give us a boost, or we do put on a Seinfeld episode. But it is I mean, again, a lot of this is intuitive, but the research supports it. Now it's nice to have that science to back it up. Absolutely, it's not just fluff anymore.

44:02 Yeah, And we're not just distracting ourselves, it's actually having a positive impact. It's actually really making a difference to our physiology and it. Is been starting to be taught at school as well, which is my dream for the future that we all learn this at school. And mine as well. And I know that you have been a leader in that area as well, So do you want to talk a little bit about that, about how we can be incorporating this and teaching it to our kids in schools. Absolutely, it's my most meaningful work, even though the majority of our work is in the workplace and it's a much smaller component is the work that we do in schools, but it is the most meaningful work. So we've been involved in this field of positive education for over ten years now. It did launch here in Australia, originally at Geelong Grammar School, but now it is growing day by day, not just in Australia but globally. COVID has given it has slowed it down a little bit as schools of really trying to come to terms with virtual teaching and homeschooling and all of those challenges there. But I think there's no turning back now CAAs I think the schools that have really been doing this a long time lunch to long like Perth College, who we've worked with for over five years, they will tell you, the teachers will actually have told me that if you have a child coming in, say in year seven, and they've come from a school that hasn't done any form of not just positive side, but social and emotional learning, which again for me,

45:35 falls under the umbrella of positive site, but it does sit as its own separate field. If you have a child that has never had any of that and they come into a school in year seven, compared to a child that has been at the school and has learned about positive site and mindset skills and emotional skills, it is visibly obvious to the teachers, they say, you can tell in terms of how the student handles themselves, their own emotions, and also how they manage their social interactions as well. It's really obvious. So it will be the future, Cats, it will be the future. We'll have this in the future.

46:18 And thinking about the long term effects of that as all of those children go on to become positive, emotionally healthy, well adjusted, resilient adults out into the workforce. It's amazing. Suzie. I've just got one last question and I want to. I know, I want to tell people how they can find out more about your positive psych programs that you offer. But if somebody is. Listening and going, oh okay, well, I've been feeling a bit crappy and I've been thinking that maybe I need. To talk to somebody. But do do I need to go and see a therapist or maybe do I need to see a coach and get some of this positive stuff going on? Like? Is there a way for people to be able to readily tell that they can screen what should they do?

47:00 Yeah? Look, there's a lot I could say about that, but we have a flourishing scale which people can contact us about that will help determine whether you might be better off seeking some counseling or some clinical treatment. The Black Dog Institute also have some assessments on their website that you can go to. But I know from my research that often people will seek out coaching because they don't necessarily want to see a therapist. Over the last fifteen years, I've seen that change, thankfully, Cas. I've seen people be more open to talking about going to therapy. It's not like New York yet, where people brag about their therapists. I really want to see it become like that in the future. So part of my mission besides encouraging people to perhaps have some coaching to determine what matters most and how they want to live their ideal lives, but simultaneously I would love to see people go and seek profession or help for counseling or for therapy. And we also we offer a very I guess a brief chat on the phone if you're also unsure about whether coaching or counseling.

48:13 We don't offer counseling, but we can. Certainly refer, but you do offer coaching. We do offer coaching, and the Australian psych Society, as you know CAUs have a Finder Psychologist service as well. But yeah, I. Would love to see people more people go and have therapy as well as coaching to determine where they want to go into the future. I'm really happy to hear you say that about less people now are showing up for coaching who probably really need to see a therapist, because I know that when I was life coaching that I definitely had a bit of that and I hadn't done my clinical psyche training. That I did coaching first and then went back to finish my clinical training, so I wasn't even necessarily I didn't necessarily at the time even know how to differentiate or to tell myself if this person really needed to see a therapist, could find myself in a coaching relationship with somebody who probably really needed to see a therapist, and I didn't have the skills at the time to know that. So that's a really important point to make and also good to know that now and what people are more willing to actually go and see a therapist.

49:15 True, but it's a good point too because there are a lot of coaches out there, as you know kas and it's an unregulated industry. So my advice would be to ask a lot of questions if you're engaging a coach about what their education is, what their background, Have they had any mental health training because a lot of coaches in the past, I do believe it is changing now, have never covered off on basic mental health training or first aid for coaches, assuming that they weren't seeing people that had mental health issues, when in fact the statistics will would suggest that a lot of people will have mental health issues that are arriving for coaching. Yeah, can you tell us also I just know too before you go that you've got a program. Is it an online course that you're running.

50:00 Yes, So I run the Positivity Prescription, which is also the name of my book that are published last year. We run once a year, the Class of twenty twenty one. It is this year. It's my fourth year running it. It's standalone videos and then I come on for a live live in the Lab call once a week where you can sort of ask me any questions that you like around the content, and I usually bring the latest research hot off the press to those calls as well. And we also launched last year program called Potential Plus, which is a workplace standalone program which I'm also really excited for, but that's mainly for businesses to offer to their staff. But yeah, we'd love to see some of the listeners in the.

50:41 Class this year, cats jumping in, jumping in while they can, Susie and I know that you've offered a special discount for Creppy to happy listeners, which I will put in the show notes. But this has been amazing, really insightful. Thank you so much for your time and lovely to catch up. With you now. Thank you Cas the work that you do is really important. Historically, psychologists haven't really been out there talking much about the work that we do in the media and the public. It's very brave of you to do so, but it's much needed. So good on you and keep up the fantastic work. Thank you, Susie, and you too. I know you've done your share of workout in the media as well, and I think hopefully more and more of us are getting out and spreading the words, so I appreciate it. If you would like to check out Susie's six week course, The Positivity Prescription and be part of her class of twenty twenty one, head to the Positivityinstitute dot com, DOTU forward slash shop and use the code crappy to Happy twenty one to take ten percent off the course fee.

51:46 That's crappy to Happy twenty one. You'll find Susie on Instagram at doctor susig or. As I said, her website is the Positivityinstitute dot com dot a you. Of course, you can always connect with me on Instagram, Cash Done, Underscore x so or Castdone dot com is my website. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us a rating and review. I also love reading your messages, so shoot me a DM on Instagram or email hello at castdone dot com. This wraps up our current season of Crappy to Happy. I'll be taking a very short break, just for a few weeks, and I'll be back with new episodes in a month or so. So now is your chance to go back through the back catalog and catch up on any episodes that you might have missed or re listen to some of your old favorites. Also, don't forget my third book, Crappy to Happy Love who You're With, is out in a matter of weeks, and the link to order that will be in the show notes.

52:38 I will catch you very soon on the next season of Crappy to Happy. Crappy to Happy is presented by Cast dun produced by Davis Lenski, Audio production by Darcy Thompson. Listener