May 27, 2025

The Power of Curiosity: How Tiny Experiments Can Transform Your Life with Anne-Laure Le Cunff

The Power of Curiosity: How Tiny Experiments Can Transform Your Life with Anne-Laure Le Cunff
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The Power of Curiosity: How Tiny Experiments Can Transform Your Life with Anne-Laure Le Cunff
The Power of Curiosity: How Tiny Experiments Can Transform Your Life with Anne-Laure Le Cunff
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Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon Castro podcast player icon PocketCasts podcast player icon Podchaser podcast player icon
Season 15 Psychology & Neuroscience Goals & Habits

Neuroscientist, Anne-Laure Le Cunff challenges the traditional notion of linear goal-setting in our lives, urging us instead to embrace "tiny experiments" as a more fulfilling and adaptive approach. In this episode, we explore the concept of liminal spaces—those uncomfortable periods of transition that often provoke anxiety. Anne-Laure shares her journey from a successful career at Google to studying neuroscience, emphasising the importance of curiosity and personal exploration over societal expectations. We discuss how these tiny experiments can help us redefine success, allowing for growth without the pressure of rigid outcomes. Prepare to rethink your approach to goals and discover how to cultivate a more enriching and curious existence.Takeaways:

  • The concept of linear goals is often misleading, as achieving them doesn't guarantee happiness.
  • Tiny experiments encourage us to embrace uncertainty and explore personal growth opportunities.
  • Instead of pursuing rigid ambitions, we should focus on curiosity and experimentation in our lives.
  • Learning in public allows us to connect with others and enhances our personal growth journey.

Connect with Anne-Laure:www.nesslabs.com
Buy 'Tiny Experiments: How to live freely in a goal obsessed world".



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www.instagram.com/cassdunn_xo

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Chapters

00:00 - Untitled

01:01 - Untitled

01:38 - Setting Goals and Managing Expectations

03:54 - Embracing Liminal Spaces: A Path to Growth

18:02 - Designing Your Own Tiny Experiments

31:10 - Embracing Experimentation in Life

32:47 - The Power of Tiny Experiments

Transcript
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This is Crappya Happy, and I am your host, Cas Done.

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I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist. I'm mindfulness meditation teacher

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and of course author of the Crappita Happy books. In

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this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent

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people who are experts in their field and who have

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something of value to share that will help you feel

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less crappy and more happy. If you have ever set

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yourself a goal and failed miserably, if you've achieved a

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goal and then felt disappointed like it didn't deliver the

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high that you expected, or if you have just found

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yourself on a trajectory in life that is no longer

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fulfilling you and you're not quite sure what the other

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options are. You are going to love the conversation that

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I have for you today. Law Lecomfe followed the path

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that was expected of her. She studied hard, achieved well,

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and that path led her all the way to a

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lovely career in Silicon Valley. Now, she also found that

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this was not necessarily fulfilling her in the way that

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she expected it was going to, and so she had

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the courage to follow her curiosity to post graduate studies

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in neuroscience and psychology. She started sharing what she was

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learning online and she quickly grew an email list of

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over one hundred thousand people who were regularly reading her

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newsletters on the topics of curiosity, lifelong learning, and mindful productivity.

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That newsletter has now turned into her own company called

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ness Labs, which is an online hub where she empowers

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people with practical and science based tools to work smarter,

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achieve peak performance, and really thrive. What I loved about

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this conversation is that and Law turns the idea of

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linear goals on their head, and she offers the concept

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of tiny experiments as an alternative to setting smart goals

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or to trying to build habits, and it is the

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most refreshing change of focus. I think that you will

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really appreciate it as much as I did. Without further ado,

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here is my conversation with Ann Laura lacomp and Loud.

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Welcome to the Crappy to Have You podcast.

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Thank you so much for having me so tiny Experiments,

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I feel like is this manifesto for living a more

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creative and meaningful and productive life, and it offers so

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many tools to help readers to be able to do that.

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And it's really a lot about kind of letting go

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of the old system that clearly no longer is working

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for us. And I think that many people are frustrated

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with trying to make it work. So I was incredibly

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inspired by everything in it. I'm, you know, lining up

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my experiments as we speak, but I want to start

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with can we talk about this idea liminal spaces and

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these periods of transition which people often find very uncomfortable,

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and why that makes peopl uncomfortable and how that can

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potentially instead use those spaces, as you know, an opportunity

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to cultivate growth or do something different.

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It's interesting you're asking this question first because the title

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of the book, which not many people know, was supposed

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to be Liminal Minds and Yes, and we changed it

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to tiny Experiments because a lot of people didn't necessarily

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know what liminal exactly meant. They had heard it, but

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they were not quite sure. And liminal is one of

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those words where once you know what it means, you

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feel like, oh, finally a word to describe that experience.

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But it's not really a word that is part of

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everyday vocabulary, and it's not really a word that you

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might just stumble upon, just reading everyday blog posts. So

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liminal means the in between, the transition, being on the

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thrust of something, being in change. And the reason why

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it's so useful as a word is because we have

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so many liminal experiences throughout our lives. We're perpetually in transition.

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We're always changing, we're always evolving, and that can be

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quite uncomfortable. The automatic response that we tend to get

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when we're in a liminal space, whether you're changing jobs,

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changing relationships, or changing yourself, is that we want to

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cross that liminal space as quickly as possible. We want

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to get to the other side, back to safety, back

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to certainty, back to control. And what I encourage people

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doing in this book is really embracing those spaces, staying

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there a little bit longer, and exploring almost playing with

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the uncertainty that arises from those liminal spaces, and seeing

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them as an opportunity to learn more about yourself and

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learn more about the world.

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As I was reading about that description of the in between,

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I often have talked in the past about William Bridge's

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model of transition. You know, he talks about endings, beginnings

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and the neutral zone and this neutral zone, being like

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this void where the old doesn't fit anymore and new

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hasn't taken shape yet. And that's what you're talking about, right,

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It's this liminal space where there's nothing really solid to

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hold on to, and yet most people's response is to

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either want to go back to how things were or

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to very quickly attach themselves to something new just to

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get out of that discomfort, which is a mistake if

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you do that too.

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Quickly, exactly, And it is a behavior, a response that

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is mostly driven by fear, by this sense of discomfort

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and anxiety that we have because this is the unknown.

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We don't know what the rules are in those liminal spaces,

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we don't know who the other players are, we don't

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even know what our options are, and very often we

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also lose the sense of who we are, which can

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be really scary, but it's also really beautiful and can

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be generative if you choose to engage with that discomfort.

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We just maybe go back a step and talk about

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how like your career started with a following a path

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and getting a very successful job at Google.

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And then choosing to leave that and what was that

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like for you? And I guess was that a.

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Liminal space for you, which led to this, you know,

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this whole new path that you have forged.

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Yeah, I think of my life in two chapters so far.

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There are hopefully going to be manymore, but at this

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stage two key chapters. The first one was very linear.

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I was really optimizing for success and a very traditional

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definition of success. So I did everything I could to

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do okay in school to get a good job. I

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started working at Google. I worked on the kind of

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projects to get a promotion, and everything was doing really well.

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But I found myself feeling bored out, which is really

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the feeling that you already know how the movie is

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going to end, as if someone had spoiled it, and

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you don't really want to sit and have to, you know,

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watch the entire thing, you know how it's going to finish.

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And I lost the sense of excitement that I had

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at the beginning of my career. I was not really

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that interested anymore in climbing the ladder, and so I

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quit my job at Google, and I thought that I

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was finally going to explore this creative freedom, decide what

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I wanted to do, and stop following the rules and

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all of these scripts. But I actually found myself following

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another script very quickly. And you know you mentioned how

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in those liminal spaces, we just want to either go

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back to what we know or just do the new

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thing that is going to give us that sense of

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control again. When when you work in Silicon Valley, like

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I did at the time, what you're supposed to do

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when you leave your job at a company like Google

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is start a startup. So I started a startup, and

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again with the illusion that I was following my own path,

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when really I was just copy pasting another playbook of

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success that I was seeing in my peers, and that

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just felt like the natural next thing to do. It's

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only when my startup failed, and that, for the first

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time in my life, I found myself not knowing what

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I was supposed to do next. I found myself without

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a plan, without a clear vision that I finally asked myself,

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what are you curious about? What is something you'd like

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to explore? If you remove success out of the equation,

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if you remove this need for having a plan, what

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is something you'd be excited to explore every day even

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if nobody was watching. And for me, that was the

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brain I had always been curious about why we think

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the way we think and feel the way we feel.

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And so I decided in my late twenties to you

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go back to university to study in your science, which

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a lot of people around me felt like, what are

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you doing? You don't become a neuroscientist in your late twenties.

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That's a bit lead to get started with that kind

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of career, but that's where my curiosity was telling me

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to go.

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There is so much in what you just said that

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listeners will be relating to. And so this idea of

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the linear path to success, like these linear goals and

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this like path that we think that we're supposed to follow.

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So many people do that exact same thing and find

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themselves like you did, unfulfilled stuck board, but not really

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having any sense of what other options there are, Like

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they don't have any other model of what they could

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do or what this might look like. And so you

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start in the book with like really dismantling and unpacking

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the problems with the idea of linear goals. And I

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think that will be such a revelation for people. Could

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you share what you see as the pro with setting

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these smart goals? You know these very clearly defined linear goals.

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There's so many problems with linear goals, but I'll just

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share some of the ones that I think are the

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most important ones and the most salient ones to me.

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The first one is that you assume that if you

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get there, if you get to that specific destination, the

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specific milestone, you'll finally be happy. And obviously that's never

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what happens. Either you don't achieve the goal, and obviously

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you're disappointed. But what's more interesting is that very often

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you do achieve the goal and you realize that happiness

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was not hiding just behind that milestone. You're still the

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same person you wear with still the same questions and challenges.

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So that is one problem. Another problem with this outcome

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based type of ambition where you have this specific destination

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is that you also assume that that's where you want

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to go. You just feel like that's where I want

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to go, and very often that is unfortunately copy pasted

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from seeing what other people do around you. And you

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also have a lot of people having that realization when

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they achieve those kind of goals that actually just trying

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to achieve the goal has changed them. They're not the

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same person anymore. And so once they get there, they're

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not that interested in that definition of success anymore. The

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world keeps on changing, We keep on changing, and so

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those rigid types of goals where we define so long

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in advance where we want to go, what the destination is,

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don't make sense at all. So that's another problem. And

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another one is that if we're all pursuing those linear goals,

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and especially in today's world with social media, where we

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can have access to what everybody is doing all the time,

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this creates a giant leaderboard where we're all on our

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parallel ladders trying to climb and get to those destinations,

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and you can compare yourself to each other and say,

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am I going fast enough? Am I doing this right?

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Am I being productive enough? What I advocate for in

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the book and that I place in contrast to this

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linear approach is a more experimental approach where instead of

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following that straight line, you go through cycles of experimentation

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and where your growth is just your own. That makes

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it impossible to compare your journey to the one of

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someone else because it's so different and you're in your

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own learning laboratory that you cannot really compare based on

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the same factors. With others, and that also means that

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you're not overly obsessed with getting to a specific destination.

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You are actually exploring your own liminal space and you're

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finding joy and growth in that space.

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So how does somebody go from this linear kind of

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approach to a more experimental mindset.

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I think any kind of change, it starts with noticing

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first where you've been approaching life in a linear way.

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A lot of us do that automatically, again because we're

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very social creatures, and so we do tend to see

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what other people around us do and feel like, Okay,

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it seems to be working for them, so I'm just

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going to do the same thing. But that's very automatic.

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So I would start with a phase of observation. And

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a metaphor that I like using to describe what that

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looks like is the metaphor of an anthropologist. So what

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does an entropriges do? Right, They go and they study

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a different culture. They know nothing about this culture. They

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go there, they take their little notebook and they take

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film notes, They observe, They ask questions like why are

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people doing things the way they're doing them, Why do

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they care about this? Why are these their priorities and

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not something else, and why do they communicate in this way?

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But they don't judge. They just take notes, they observe,

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they capture those observations in their notebook, and they withhold

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for now. And I highly become and just starting doing

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this with your own life, becoming an anthropologist where you

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observe your own life and you just ask these questions.

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You poke at the assumptions, at the routines, that the

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way you've been just simply doing things because that felt

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like the most obvious way of doing things, or maybe

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that felt like the most obvious career. Maybe that felt

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like the most natural way of building your relationship. Maybe

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living in the city where you live just felt like

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just the thing that you do. Right. There are so

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many of these assumptions in our lives, so many of

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our scripts. So it starts with observation. Once you start

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really observing your own life, you can then start asking

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what if that look differently? What if I approached this

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in a slightly different way, what if I tweaked my

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approach this? What if kind of thinking? That is what

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an experimental mindset is all about, just asking what if

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that is the relation of a hypothesis and then you

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can start experimenting. You can start trying new things and

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see what happens.

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And this idea of a hypothesis too means there's no

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failing like this is the other problem with the linear approach,

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isn't that there's either you win or you lose, Like

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you either succeed or you or you fail, you or

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you quit, and nobody wants to be a quitter. Like

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we can talk about that. But when you take this

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curious experimental approach, there's no winning or losing. There's just

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taking the feedback and letting that kind of inform the

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next whatever.

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The next iteration is absolutely the definition of success. The

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traditional definition of success is very much based on this

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binary vision of what success is supposed to look like.

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As you said, either you win or you lose, and

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because of that, we fear failure and we feel like

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we cannot try new things because it is likely that

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we might not get the outcome that we predicted. Right.

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Whereas when you have an experimental mindset, just think about

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the way a scientist is designing an experiment. If they

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already knew the answer, if they knew with one hundred

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percent certainty, what the outcome would be that it would

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be quote unquote successful. They would not run the experiment

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in the first place because it would be nothing new

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to learn here, right, And so this is really how

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you want to think about your life and your projects

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and your work and your relationships, asking the question not

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how can I succeed, but what can I learn? This

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is a completely different mindset.

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Completely And I know this quote that I've heard before

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and you mentioned it in the book as well, which

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I love is the most illiterate person is the person

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who can learn, unlearn, and relearn. And it is a

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lot about this examining and unpacking these scripts, like these

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rules that we've been conditioned to believe, like this is

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the way that we do things. But let's say, okay,

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so I've got my hypothesis, how do I design my

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tiny experiment?

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Then?

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So scientific experiments are all based on the idea of

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repeated trials, So you don't just do the thing once.

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You need to collect data several times to see if

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when you do A you actually get B, if there's

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some form of correlation. When you design your own tiny experiments,

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it's really not about doing a scientific experiment where you're

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going to analyze data and do statistics or any of that.

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But you do want to keep that principle that you

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need to do the things several times in order to

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know whether this is working for you or not. So

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the way you build and design a tiny experiment is

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by choosing an action, a change, something you're curious about,

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and committing to it for a specific duration. I call

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this formula the pact. It's a pact. It's a commitment

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to your own curiosity. It's a commitment to explore. You say,

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for this duration, I'm going to do this thing, and again,

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I'm going to withhold judgment until I'm done collecting data.

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So you say I will. For example, let's say that

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you've noticed that you're spending a lot of time in

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front of your computer. It's funny I'm using this example

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because this is literally the experiment I'm running right now

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at the moment. That's my tiny experiment. I've noticed that

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I'm spending a lot of time in front of my

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computer because I'm doing a lot of meetings, and because

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of that, there have been days where I haven't even

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left the house. So I designed an experiment where I

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said I'm going to work for twenty minutes every day

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for the next twenty days, and I'm not going to

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judge whether that's working or not until I'm done with

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the experiment. For now, I'm just showing up. I'm going

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on my walk every day and I'm paying attention to

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how i feel. But I'm not stopping the experiment until

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I'm done. And that's a tiny experiment, an action and

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a duration.

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And when you design that tiny experiment with your twenty

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minutes of work, and that's a great example. Are you

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very prescriptive about in the morning or you know the

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time of day it has to happen, because this is

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what I hear a lot with the people that I

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work with too, Like if I'm not doing it, I've

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got to do it before breakfast, or I've got to

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do it at lunchtime. And I always say to start with,

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don't constrain yourself to a particular time of day, just

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as long as it gets done.

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Like would that be your advice as well?

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That's my approach, But I would say that this is

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it's kind of meta, but it is part of the

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experimental process as well to figure out what works for you.

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And so if you find that actually saying I'm going

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to do that first thing in the morning, even before

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I have breakfast. I'll put my shoes on, I'll go

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for a quick walk around the neighborhood, and I'll come

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back and I'll make myself breakfast. And this works better

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for you, then do that. If you find, which is

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my case, that it's better for me to not have

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a specific time, because sometimes it will literally be just

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before going to bed and I say, I haven't gone

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on my walk. Actually, let me just go outside sometimes

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in my pajamas, and I will just literally walk a

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little bit around the block and come back and at

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least it's done for the day. That works for me,

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I would at the beginning design something that is as

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simple as possible and really optimizing for being able to

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complete the experiment. So whatever feels easiest to you, but

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what is easiest for me might not be what is

359
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easiest for you, right, So really listening to yourself going

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for the easiest version. And this is part again of

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the experimental approach, paying attention to what works and what doesn't,

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and feeling comfortable tweaking your approach, trying different ways. As

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long as you complete your pact. That means that you

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can say actually from now and I'm going to be

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a little bit more rigid with myself. I'm going to

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say it's in the morning, because I've noticed it's very

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hard if I wait until later in the day or

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trying to do it in the morning. Actually, when I

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skip it, then I feel like I felt for the

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day and end up not doing it. So actually, I

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need a more flexible approach. All of these are completely fine,

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and they're really based on that sense of observation and experimentation.

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So at the end of the experiment, you've talked about

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the walking for twenty minutes. In your book you talk

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about meditation. I mean you talk about your newsletter being

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I think was that your first one of your first

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kind of tiny experiments.

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Maybe just could you share that for listeners.

379
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Yes, that was my first experiment. I hadn't even really

380
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codified my method and the way that I did later

381
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on through writing and in the book, but a lot

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of the principles were already there. Actually, I at the

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time started my studies in neuroscience, and I discovered something

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called the generation effect, which shows that by creating your

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own version of something you're studying, you're going to both

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understand it and remember it better. And I felt, Oh,

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that's that's pretty neat. Actually, this generation effect, I want

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to use it. I want to use it so I

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better connect with what I'm studying in my neuroscience stuff.

390
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And in order to be accountable, I said, Okay, I'm

391
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going to do this tiny experiment where I'm going to

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write one hundred articles in one hundred weekdays and I'm

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going to send them in a newsletter. And it didn't

394
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matter how long the articles were. They could be literally

395
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one hundred words. I have some very short ones actually

396
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that I wrote a few bullet points, or they could

397
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be a massive essay if I felt really inspired and

398
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I had a lot of time. The format didn't matter.

399
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The content didn't matter either. It could be anything I

400
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was curious about that week, about any research paper I read,

401
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a questions, an interesting thought, a conversation that I had

402
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with a friend, didn't matter. All I had to do

403
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was for one hundred week days to write and to

404
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send one article. And that was my first tiny experiment,

405
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and it actually turned into the nest Labs newsletter. It

406
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turned into the nest Labs community, It turned into the

407
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business that I'm running now. Where I have a team

408
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and it turned into a book. So you never know

409
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where your experiment is going to take you.

410
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It's amazing. It's amazing. And how many subscribers are there

411
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right now to your newsletter.

412
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About one hundred more than one hundred thousand.

413
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Yeah, right, pretty successful.

414
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Yeah.

415
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I had another young woman on the podcast. She also

416
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studied neuroscience and do they teach you all this in

417
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like first year of neuroscience because she said that she

418
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learned basically she would learn better by teaching, and so

419
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she started a podcast to talk about what she was

420
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learning in her lectures, and now she's got one of

421
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the most successful podcasts in the world.

422
00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:31.960
It just continued, So there's something in that.

423
00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:36.920
Yeah, teach what you're learning, because it's obviously really beneficial

424
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for you, but also other people.

425
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I think this is one of the very lucky fortunate

426
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things about studying neuroscience or psycho Is there anything that

427
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has to do with the brain and the mind, is

428
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that as part of your studies you actually learn about

429
00:23:50.039 --> 00:23:53.839
the way you learn yourself. They teach you how we learn,

430
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how we acquire knowledge, how we connect ideas, how we

431
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form memories, and so those are some of the studies

432
00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:04.440
were again at a very meta level, you can actually

433
00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:07.359
apply a lot of what you learn to your own

434
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life and to you're on work. Yeah, exactly.

435
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:12.880
So at the end of the experiment, then you've collected

436
00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:15.440
a whole lot of data and at that point, you

437
00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:17.960
know you're in a better position to make a decision

438
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about whether this is something that you want to pursue.

439
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And I know that you said, you know in the

440
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book you give the example that you know a lot

441
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of people once they decide oh okay, this has been

442
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working for me for twenty days of walking. It's almost

443
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like our instinct is to then go, okay, now I'm

444
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going to increase it. Now I'm going to do thirty minutes.

445
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And now now now I'm going to you know, like

446
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we start running for five kilometers and the next but

447
00:24:41.480 --> 00:24:44.160
we need to run a marathon, like constantly upping the

448
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anti So what's your you know, what's your advice around

449
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like how you make decisions at the end of the

450
00:24:50.599 --> 00:24:52.799
experiment about where to next?

451
00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:56.240
Yes, I noticed and maker is that when I did

452
00:24:56.279 --> 00:24:59.319
a meditation experiment, my next start was I need to

453
00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:01.039
go to your pas and a retreat. I need to

454
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go and do something bigger, and so especially if we

455
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enjoyed the experiment, this is something that might happen where

456
00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:11.519
we want to just go for something a more ambitious

457
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version of it. And this is why I share three

458
00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:17.960
different options that you have roots that you can explore

459
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at the end of your experiment. And the first one

460
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I list is to persist, to just keep the experiment

461
00:25:24.920 --> 00:25:28.279
as is, and to keep going for another cycle of experimentation.

462
00:25:28.839 --> 00:25:32.279
So maybe you finished the twenty days of walking, that

463
00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:34.920
felt great. You're just going to go for another twenty days,

464
00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:37.759
twenty minutes, for another twenty days, and that's it. Actually

465
00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:41.319
it felt really good, you enjoyed it. You don't need

466
00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:43.680
to work for longer, and you don't need to also

467
00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:46.759
make your experiment any longer. For now, you just keep going.

468
00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:50.519
Let's do another cycle. That's it. This is actually something

469
00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:55.240
that very few people consider. We either decide to ramp

470
00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:58.680
it up or to tweak it, or but just persisting

471
00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:01.720
just doing the exact same thing. That's one option. The

472
00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:05.200
second one is that maybe you enjoyed the experiment, but

473
00:26:05.319 --> 00:26:09.200
you felt like something could be changed, something could be improved.

474
00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:13.200
And this is where you can say, actually, twenty minutes

475
00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:14.960
I felt like I still had it in me to

476
00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:17.519
go for a little bit longer, and I didn't want

477
00:26:17.559 --> 00:26:19.279
to go home when I was done. So I'm going

478
00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:21.480
to go for thirty minutes. Now, let's do thirty minutes,

479
00:26:21.960 --> 00:26:24.960
or you could say twenty minutes actually felt daunting sometimes,

480
00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:27.559
especially when I was exhausted after a long day at work,

481
00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:30.200
So I'm just going to do ten or fifteen minutes.

482
00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:33.920
And so you can tweak your experiment. You can also

483
00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:37.279
tweak things that are not quantitative, like that. You can say,

484
00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:39.960
for example, I loved my walks, but my feet were

485
00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:42.880
hurting by the end of it. You know what, I'm

486
00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:45.559
going to invest in my next cycle of experimentation, and

487
00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:48.480
I'm going to buy a nice pair of sneakers so

488
00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:51.839
I'm more comfortable. Or you could say it was nice,

489
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:54.240
but I was a bit bored sometimes, So maybe I'll

490
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:57.279
start listening to podcasts now on my walk, or maybe

491
00:26:57.279 --> 00:26:58.799
I'll invite a friend to join me. So you can

492
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:02.279
tweak it. So that's the pivot one. So persis there's

493
00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:05.319
one option. Pivot is another one, and the last one

494
00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:08.599
is to posit to just say I'm going to stop

495
00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:12.400
for now, and that's not quitting. That's not fully abandoning it,

496
00:27:12.599 --> 00:27:14.519
because sometimes you might want to come back to it,

497
00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:16.480
even in one year or two years, you might want

498
00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:19.319
to come back to that experiment. But for now, this

499
00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:21.799
is not really working. This is not exactly what you need.

500
00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:24.200
It's not serving you in the way you expected it to.

501
00:27:24.440 --> 00:27:27.119
So you can posit and that's completely fine as well.

502
00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:32.119
And I like that you make the distinction that when

503
00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:35.279
we make this pact and we commit to doing this

504
00:27:35.880 --> 00:27:39.200
action for this period of time, this is not like

505
00:27:39.400 --> 00:27:41.720
making a habit, because I think people get stuck in

506
00:27:41.799 --> 00:27:44.160
that mindset as well. Don't everything's going to be a

507
00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:46.400
goal or it's going to be making a habit. This

508
00:27:46.599 --> 00:27:53.160
is the old thinking. So we're just experimenting, yes, exactly.

509
00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:56.559
That's the major difference between a habit and a pact

510
00:27:56.960 --> 00:27:59.599
is that with a habit, you assume that this is

511
00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:02.240
going to be good for you, and so you commit

512
00:28:02.440 --> 00:28:04.960
to it for basically the rest of your life. Right,

513
00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:09.400
you say, from now on, I'm going to drink this

514
00:28:09.519 --> 00:28:11.559
amount of water every day from now on, I'm going

515
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:13.599
to go on to thirty minute walk every day from

516
00:28:13.720 --> 00:28:17.359
now on dot dot right. And some of the issues

517
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:20.599
with that are that, first it's a very big place

518
00:28:20.680 --> 00:28:22.400
to start just to say I'm going to do this

519
00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:24.319
for the rest of my life. So it might be

520
00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:27.680
so overwhelming that you end up just quitting very quickly.

521
00:28:28.039 --> 00:28:31.240
But to me, the deeper problem with this is the

522
00:28:31.319 --> 00:28:33.680
assumption that this is going to be good for you.

523
00:28:34.119 --> 00:28:38.119
And walking, for example, Sure it's good for a lot

524
00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:40.599
of people, but if it's not something you enjoy, it

525
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:43.079
might not be the right form of body movement for you.

526
00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:45.680
And I know some people they don't really like walking,

527
00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:47.240
but so what do they do. They sign up for

528
00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:51.559
dance classes and they get the same benefits than you

529
00:28:51.640 --> 00:28:54.920
would from walking. They move their body. They even have

530
00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:57.680
the social connection on top of this of going to

531
00:28:57.839 --> 00:29:01.200
dance classes, and they figure that that's what's good for them.

532
00:29:01.279 --> 00:29:03.640
But you won't know if you don't try it. So

533
00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:06.880
I highly recommend if there's a habit that you're considering

534
00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:10.839
exploring before you do that, design the pact or you

535
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:13.880
say I'm going to do that thing for this specific duration,

536
00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:17.839
and at the end of that experiment, I can decide

537
00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:19.640
whether I want to keep going, and maybe I do

538
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:22.440
want to turn it into a habit afterwards. But now

539
00:29:22.599 --> 00:29:26.319
my decision is based on personal data that I've collected

540
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:29.319
myself and not just on seeing what other people around

541
00:29:29.359 --> 00:29:29.799
me are doing.

542
00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:32.799
Yeah, I want to go back to the things that

543
00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:34.960
tend to keep people stuck.

544
00:29:35.119 --> 00:29:38.160
So the old way of goal setting and the old

545
00:29:38.200 --> 00:29:41.400
you know, the old way of habits in people's working lives,

546
00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:43.680
in their professional lives. Like, there's there's a lot of

547
00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:47.160
things that once people get on a path, they feel

548
00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:52.039
really constrained. They find it really difficult to broaden their

549
00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:54.559
interests or to try something different, or to be seen

550
00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:58.160
as not the expert. So I would love it if

551
00:29:58.200 --> 00:30:01.200
you could talk a little bit about like how this approached,

552
00:30:01.240 --> 00:30:03.960
this tiny experiment's approach, and some of the extra things

553
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:06.440
that you obviously share in the book, about how people

554
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:10.039
can be encouraged to try something different, to step off

555
00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:13.559
that kind of trajectory that they're on and be willing

556
00:30:13.720 --> 00:30:17.359
to explore something different that might make them feel more

557
00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:19.240
alive or that sparks the curiosity.

558
00:30:19.559 --> 00:30:24.640
Yes, there's a big misconception around embracing a more experimental

559
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:27.000
life that it means that you need to quit your

560
00:30:27.079 --> 00:30:30.319
job and go and do something really risky and really scary.

561
00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:32.920
But that's not the case at all. It's really more

562
00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:37.480
about being intentional and creating spaces for experimentation in your life.

563
00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:40.400
So I want to start by saying that it's completely

564
00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:45.680
okay if you decide with intention again, intentional, that's the

565
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:49.039
key word that in some areas of your life, you're

566
00:30:49.160 --> 00:30:52.599
very happy to keep it quite stable and quite predictable.

567
00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:54.880
And I know some people who feel like, you know

568
00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:57.640
what I'm in this job, I'm in this career actually

569
00:30:57.720 --> 00:30:59.759
feel quite comfortable. I know what I'm doing, I know

570
00:30:59.839 --> 00:31:02.920
my team, I'm making good money, and I have no

571
00:31:03.079 --> 00:31:05.599
plans on changing any of this. Right now doesn't feel

572
00:31:05.640 --> 00:31:08.759
like the right time. But I'm going to experiment with

573
00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:12.000
my health, for example. So maybe I'll decide to start

574
00:31:12.039 --> 00:31:15.599
experimenting with running and marathons and training, or maybe experimenting

575
00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:19.559
with my diet, my nutrition, trying new recipes, trying new

576
00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:23.720
ways of cooking. Maybe I'll start experimenting with my relationships.

577
00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:27.200
I'll go to friends dating events and try and meet

578
00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:29.960
new people. And I feel like I can do that

579
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:32.599
because I have a sense of safety in another area

580
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:35.319
of my life where I don't feel like experimenting right now.

581
00:31:35.559 --> 00:31:38.200
Other keyword right now. It just means that right now

582
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:41.400
is not the time, So you can be intentional in

583
00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:44.400
say I'm going to experiment here but not there, and

584
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:47.720
that's completely fine. And the second thing that's very important,

585
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:50.200
this is why your book is called Tiny Experiments and

586
00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:53.799
not big Experiments, is that you don't have to start

587
00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:57.440
really big. You can start with something really small. And

588
00:31:57.640 --> 00:32:00.160
when you start observing your life you will notice is

589
00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:02.799
that there are some routines that you've been sticking to

590
00:32:02.920 --> 00:32:06.000
for years without really questioning them, or you will notice

591
00:32:06.039 --> 00:32:09.440
sometimes a sense of lack or missing something in some

592
00:32:09.640 --> 00:32:11.880
other areas where maybe you feel like you don't have

593
00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:15.160
enough social connection, maybe you feel like again not enough

594
00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:19.200
body movement, not enough time for quiet, not enough time

595
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:22.240
for creativity. Maybe, and you can say, okay, what is

596
00:32:22.279 --> 00:32:25.759
a tiny experiment I can design here to reinject some

597
00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:28.319
of that thing that's been missing in my life. That

598
00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:31.799
can be as simple as that, to develop this experimental mindset.

599
00:32:32.680 --> 00:32:37.000
And if somebody is, for example, in a job or

600
00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:39.640
a career. I was thinking as I was reading, you know,

601
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:42.359
I'm a psychologist and I've trained as a psychologist, and

602
00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:45.880
when I first started posting online, I really felt probably

603
00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:48.000
still due to some degree, but you know, there's like

604
00:32:48.160 --> 00:32:50.599
almost having to stay in your box and having other

605
00:32:50.720 --> 00:32:53.480
things that I might want to share or talk about

606
00:32:53.640 --> 00:32:56.519
or express, but feeling really like this is my role,

607
00:32:56.720 --> 00:33:00.160
like this is my public image, and you know, that

608
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:04.119
sort of restriction. So I'm just interested in, like how

609
00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:06.559
you know somebody for example, or you might be a doctor,

610
00:33:06.680 --> 00:33:08.400
you might you might be an accountant, but you're really

611
00:33:08.480 --> 00:33:11.960
interested in how to make row kombucher, like you know, Like,

612
00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:18.799
so it's like finding little ways to nourish that curiosity,

613
00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:19.160
isn't it.

614
00:33:19.640 --> 00:33:23.079
Absolutely. I love that you mentioned those two examples because

615
00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:26.119
in the book, I do have an example of someone

616
00:33:26.160 --> 00:33:29.599
who decided to experiment with making kombucher and uh. And

617
00:33:29.720 --> 00:33:32.359
I do also have an example from a medical practitioner

618
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:36.680
who became really interested in psychedelics and for a time

619
00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:40.799
didn't feel like they could openly explore this curiosity because

620
00:33:41.160 --> 00:33:43.279
it it was kind of at arts with what was

621
00:33:43.359 --> 00:33:48.039
accepted in their the medical community and the professional community

622
00:33:48.119 --> 00:33:50.960
she was a part of. And this is also why,

623
00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:55.200
although I highly recommend if you can to experiment and

624
00:33:55.319 --> 00:33:59.480
to learn in public, it is also completely okay if,

625
00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:02.440
because of your current circumstances, there is something you want

626
00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:04.839
to explore more privately, and you want to experiment with

627
00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:08.360
more privately you can see where your curiosity is taking you.

628
00:34:08.920 --> 00:34:12.079
Sometimes what happens is just that actually, that was not

629
00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:14.440
as interesting as you thought it was, and you're kind

630
00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:17.239
of happy that you didn't tell everyone that was something

631
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:20.480
you were trying. But sometimes what happens is that your

632
00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:25.360
curiosity keeps on growing. You're really enjoying yourself with this experiment,

633
00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:29.280
and it almost feels like you need a bigger change

634
00:34:29.320 --> 00:34:32.199
in your life. And that person I mentioned in the

635
00:34:32.280 --> 00:34:36.760
book ended up leaving their job as a traditional medical

636
00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:41.480
practitioner and retraining as a psychedelics faciity tailor. But that

637
00:34:41.679 --> 00:34:48.360
only happened after a period of experimentation where she felt like, actually, yeah,

638
00:34:48.599 --> 00:34:50.760
I feel too curious about this. I feel too drown

639
00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:53.639
and too cold to do this work, and so I

640
00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:57.320
need to reinvent my career. But again, that only happened

641
00:34:57.400 --> 00:34:58.840
after a period of experimentation.

642
00:34:59.440 --> 00:35:01.119
And I think that's that's a really great lesson. It

643
00:35:01.320 --> 00:35:04.199
can just be a tiny step, like you don't nobody's

644
00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:07.320
suggesting quit the whole job and launch this new thing,

645
00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:09.360
which is what I think some people have in their mind.

646
00:35:09.559 --> 00:35:11.960
To do that, I have to dismantle this whole thing.

647
00:35:12.079 --> 00:35:15.440
But actually you could just take baby steps and see

648
00:35:15.559 --> 00:35:19.280
how that goes for you, and just see how it progresses.

649
00:35:20.679 --> 00:35:24.280
Yeah, I really tried in writing this book to be

650
00:35:24.599 --> 00:35:28.280
cognizant and inclusive of the many situations people are in.

651
00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:31.840
Just looking around me, I'm just thinking about my own

652
00:35:31.960 --> 00:35:34.480
mom and how she grew up. It is not possible

653
00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:38.000
for everyone to just quit their job and take that risk.

654
00:35:38.360 --> 00:35:41.079
You might be a caregiver, you might have debt. And

655
00:35:41.719 --> 00:35:43.920
that's also why I want to make it very very

656
00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:48.199
clear that that is not what tainy experiments are about.

657
00:35:48.360 --> 00:35:51.719
They're not about taking that bit risk. They're about conducting

658
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:55.920
that very small experiment and see what happens. And once

659
00:35:55.960 --> 00:35:58.840
you feel more comfortable, once you've learned enough about that

660
00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:01.440
first phase of experience mention, you can go through another

661
00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:05.360
cycle see how it grows and kind of expand the

662
00:36:05.480 --> 00:36:07.679
size of your comfort zone. But you can do that

663
00:36:08.079 --> 00:36:10.760
at your own pace. You don't have to force yourself

664
00:36:10.840 --> 00:36:14.320
to take a risk that feels really scary, unnecessarily scary.

665
00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:18.840
You mentioned before learning in public, learning in public, and

666
00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:22.840
also the benefit of community and the kind of social flow.

667
00:36:22.840 --> 00:36:25.320
I think they're really important things. To touch on as well,

668
00:36:25.400 --> 00:36:27.559
like what are the benefits of doing that.

669
00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:32.159
This entire idea of learning in public and social flow

670
00:36:32.440 --> 00:36:35.199
is just based on the premise. This is something I

671
00:36:35.239 --> 00:36:37.280
think a lot of us know at an interative level,

672
00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:39.400
but there's actually a lot of research to back it up,

673
00:36:39.639 --> 00:36:42.519
which is that we learn better together, we learn faster,

674
00:36:42.840 --> 00:36:45.360
and it's actually more fun when we learn together. So

675
00:36:45.559 --> 00:36:47.719
if you can, if you're in a position to do that,

676
00:36:48.639 --> 00:36:51.360
it is much better for you to actually design your

677
00:36:51.400 --> 00:36:55.119
experiment and conduct your experiment in public and in public.

678
00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:57.920
It doesn't necessarily mean that you need to post on

679
00:36:58.039 --> 00:37:01.360
YouTube about it and tell everyone about it, although you

680
00:37:01.480 --> 00:37:03.280
can do that. That is actually a great way to

681
00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:06.039
learn in public, but it can be more semi public

682
00:37:06.280 --> 00:37:10.119
just having an accountability group, being part of an online community.

683
00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:13.880
Maybe it's just a WhatsApp chat conversation that you're part

684
00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:16.320
of with two or three other people who are also

685
00:37:16.440 --> 00:37:20.239
interested in the same experiment, and that not only creates

686
00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:24.039
a sense of accountability where you make sure that you

687
00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:27.400
complete the experiment the fact that you have committed to,

688
00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:30.639
but that also means that you're going to learn from

689
00:37:30.679 --> 00:37:33.719
each other. You're going to learn from each other's challenges.

690
00:37:33.920 --> 00:37:37.360
You're going to be able to pull resources and you're

691
00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:41.159
going to be able to progress faster just by being

692
00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:44.039
in that same group and by sharing those resources.

693
00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:48.000
And I like to that you mentioned the benefit of

694
00:37:48.760 --> 00:37:51.760
when you're learning in public, you're kind of leaning into

695
00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:57.960
your curiosity as opposed to leaning on your expertise. I

696
00:37:58.039 --> 00:38:00.880
think for people, like I said, like the established kind

697
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:02.400
of identic this is what I know, and this is

698
00:38:02.440 --> 00:38:05.639
what I do. When there's that very kind of stacked

699
00:38:06.199 --> 00:38:08.639
you know, we go up the ladder as opposed to

700
00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:11.920
you know, going into a space and being willing to

701
00:38:12.039 --> 00:38:15.840
be a learner and to experiment and be curious.

702
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:19.760
Yeah, that's what's beautiful about embracing the fact that you're

703
00:38:19.760 --> 00:38:23.239
a lifelong learner and not an expert, is that instead

704
00:38:23.239 --> 00:38:25.599
of being this version of yourself that is fixed in

705
00:38:25.719 --> 00:38:28.719
time that is not going to evolve anymore, you are

706
00:38:29.079 --> 00:38:33.119
really welcoming embracing the idea that you are an ever evolving,

707
00:38:33.400 --> 00:38:37.719
changing human being, that you're just as students, student of life,

708
00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:40.400
students of your work, student of whatever it is that

709
00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:44.639
you're curious about, and that you're willing to learn together

710
00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:47.760
with other people. This is also how I've been designing

711
00:38:47.960 --> 00:38:51.000
my own work, the Nestlabs newsletter, and a lot of

712
00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:54.360
the work that I do is based on learning in public.

713
00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:59.079
I never write anything saying, hey, I'm an expert, here's

714
00:38:59.079 --> 00:39:01.599
what you can learn from me. But I say, hey,

715
00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:04.360
here's something I just discovered, And a lot of my

716
00:39:04.400 --> 00:39:07.360
newsletters are actually based on topics I literally discovered that week.

717
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:10.559
Here's something I just discovered. I feel like maybe you'll

718
00:39:10.599 --> 00:39:13.239
find it interesting too, and here's my understanding of it.

719
00:39:14.039 --> 00:39:16.440
And it takes that pressure off which holds so many

720
00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:19.840
people back from like needing to be the expert or

721
00:39:19.880 --> 00:39:21.599
needing to have all the answers. Like I'm just thinking

722
00:39:21.639 --> 00:39:23.519
of the people in my community and the things that

723
00:39:23.559 --> 00:39:26.000
they come up against, and that's one of them, right,

724
00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:27.400
Like I need to have it all together. I need

725
00:39:27.480 --> 00:39:29.199
to know everything, and it needs to be perfect before

726
00:39:29.239 --> 00:39:31.800
I put it out into the world, and it just

727
00:39:31.840 --> 00:39:34.719
stops people from doing anything exactly.

728
00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:37.960
So when you do attain your experiment and when you

729
00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:39.960
say I'm not the expert, I'm just here to learn

730
00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:42.159
something new and to share what I'm learning right now,

731
00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:44.960
it makes it much easier to start, but also to

732
00:39:45.079 --> 00:39:45.519
keep going.

733
00:39:46.519 --> 00:39:48.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and in the book, which I hope

734
00:39:48.960 --> 00:39:52.159
everybody will go and get, like it really is so good.

735
00:39:52.519 --> 00:39:56.760
There's advice there about procrastination and perfectionism and all of

736
00:39:56.840 --> 00:39:59.159
the usual things that trip people up, and offers a

737
00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:02.760
different perspect even you know, a way to work with

738
00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:06.199
all of those things and still continue on this path

739
00:40:06.280 --> 00:40:10.719
of like curiosity and growth loops as opposed to linear progress,

740
00:40:10.719 --> 00:40:12.960
which we haven't even talked about. But that's also something

741
00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:15.599
that people might be interested in. And I guess the

742
00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:17.800
last thing was which I thought was a really great

743
00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:19.480
point that you made in the book and law, was

744
00:40:19.960 --> 00:40:23.199
about this idea of generativity as opposed to legacy.

745
00:40:23.639 --> 00:40:28.039
Yeah, we're obsessed as a society with our legacy. We're

746
00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:30.840
encouraged to think about our legacy, and I find that

747
00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:35.159
completely absurd in the sense that we're focusing on what

748
00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:39.320
we're going to contribute to society once we're not here anymore, right,

749
00:40:39.480 --> 00:40:41.920
and so we make decisions in the moment that are

750
00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:46.440
based on what might happen maybe from like twenty thirty

751
00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:49.519
forty years from now on, when we're not even here,

752
00:40:50.159 --> 00:40:54.039
And instead I encourage people to focus on generativity instead

753
00:40:54.079 --> 00:40:58.559
of legacy. The difference is that with generativity, you're making

754
00:40:58.639 --> 00:41:01.599
decisions based on what can have the most positive impact

755
00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:04.519
on the people who are around you right now sharing

756
00:41:04.679 --> 00:41:08.840
this very same planet together, and you trust that this

757
00:41:09.079 --> 00:41:12.159
is going to have a good, positive impact over the

758
00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:14.960
long term. But that's not what you're optimizing for. You're

759
00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:18.280
optimizing for doing good in the present moment.

760
00:41:18.679 --> 00:41:22.119
I love that important distinction. It has been such a pleasure.

761
00:41:22.360 --> 00:41:25.800
I really love the book and I want to just

762
00:41:25.880 --> 00:41:27.599
thank you so much for your time today.

763
00:41:28.199 --> 00:41:31.159
Thank you for having me. This was a really amazing conversation.

764
00:41:32.519 --> 00:41:35.400
Crappy and Happy is created and produced by me Kastan.

765
00:41:35.519 --> 00:41:37.559
If you enjoy the show, please hit the follow button

766
00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:39.960
wherever you listen to ensure you never miss an episode,

767
00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:41.880
Share with a friend to get me into the ease

768
00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:43.800
of more lovely listeners, and I would love you to

769
00:41:43.880 --> 00:41:46.199
leave a five star rating and review. Thank you so

770
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:48.159
much for being here and I cannot wait to catch

771
00:41:48.199 --> 00:41:51.039
you next week for another fabulous episode of Crapta Happy